1
00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,240
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to The Credit Edge, a weekly markets podcast.

2
00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,160
Speaker 1: My name is James Crombie. I'm a senior editor at Bloomberg.

3
00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,639
Speaker 1: Today's guests are Jeremy Hill, who reports on distressed debt

4
00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,959
Speaker 1: for Bloomberg News in New York. We're delighted to have

5
00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:25,560
Speaker 1: you on the show.

6
00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:27,440
Speaker 2: Hi, thanks for having me.

7
00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,240
Speaker 1: We're also very pleased to welcome back Jamin Patel, who

8
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,320
Speaker 1: covers utilities for Bloomberg Intelligence.

9
00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:33,440
Speaker 3: Good to join, James.

10
00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,120
Speaker 1: We'll be coming back to Jamin shortly. Lost of exciting

11
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,280
Speaker 1: stuff going on in the utility sector, so do stay

12
00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,959
Speaker 1: with us. But first, Jeremy Hill, with Bloomberg News, you've

13
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,159
Speaker 1: been digging deep into distressed debt and bankruptcy. We've had

14
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,800
Speaker 1: the pleasure of working together on that for years. A

15
00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:50,720
Speaker 1: lot of companies are running into trouble at the moment,

16
00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,960
Speaker 1: with interest rates rising and the economy slowing, potentially tipping

17
00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,440
Speaker 1: into a recession. Volatility in the financial sector doesn't help.

18
00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,480
Speaker 1: Regional banks are struggling, and that means less for the

19
00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,040
Speaker 1: companies that really need it. On top of that, we

20
00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,880
Speaker 1: have a growing anxiety about the debt ceiling. I'd have

21
00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:07,920
Speaker 1: to go back to twenty eleven for the last time

22
00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,360
Speaker 1: it's been this fraud. A debt default by the US

23
00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,640
Speaker 1: government would be a huge and potentially catastrophic event for

24
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,360
Speaker 1: the global economy. So, Jeremy, why the big spike in

25
00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:19,480
Speaker 1: bankruptcies right now?

26
00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,880
Speaker 2: That's a really interesting question, James. I think what's so

27
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,200
Speaker 2: fascinating about this uptick over the weekend is that there

28
00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,520
Speaker 2: isn't any one factor that caused it. There wasn't some

29
00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 2: sort of acute influence like in twenty twenty COVID. It

30
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,319
Speaker 2: was something that nobody really saw coming. It was something

31
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,199
Speaker 2: like a rogue wave that just pulled down a bunch

32
00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,400
Speaker 2: of companies that were already on the edge, and then

33
00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:51,600
Speaker 2: it receded and things got back to their you know, abnormal.

34
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,800
Speaker 2: But this time, interest rates are just starting to bite

35
00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,559
Speaker 2: and it's very organic, and it is while interest rates

36
00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:03,880
Speaker 2: increased relatively quickly, it's just such a fundamental problem for

37
00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,640
Speaker 2: anybody that is exposed to floating rate debt.

38
00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:12,240
Speaker 1: So the context, Sorry, just to interrupt this past weekend

39
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,920
Speaker 1: we're talking mid May. Now. It was the busiest weekend

40
00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,200
Speaker 1: for US bankruptcy filings since when and how many were there?

41
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,760
Speaker 2: There were seven filings between Sunday and Monday, and those

42
00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,480
Speaker 2: are seven large I'm doing air quotes filings that we

43
00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,400
Speaker 2: define that to be fifty million dollars of debt or more.

44
00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,400
Speaker 2: And it's just not something that we have seen in

45
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,680
Speaker 2: the roughly fifteen years that we've at Bloomberg have been

46
00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,840
Speaker 2: tracking the data. A really busy couple of days is

47
00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 2: like three or four large bankruptcy filings. So these filings

48
00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:55,880
Speaker 2: were across various sectors. There was some oil, some healthcare.

49
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,200
Speaker 2: There was a fire protection company, a company that makes

50
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:06,680
Speaker 2: like the smoke detectors and chemicals to put out fires.

51
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,560
Speaker 2: I mean, it was really across the spectrum. And the

52
00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,920
Speaker 2: only thing that really unites almost all of them is

53
00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,800
Speaker 2: that interest rates are higher now and lenders don't have

54
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,119
Speaker 2: the patience that they once did.

55
00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,360
Speaker 1: So were they hitting a maturity will that was there

56
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:20,760
Speaker 1: a trigger in terms of, you know, you have to

57
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:22,720
Speaker 1: pay this debt by the weekend and if you don't,

58
00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,079
Speaker 1: you go bust? I mean, what what what happened there?

59
00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,160
Speaker 2: In the case of Envision, that was in Vision Healthcare

60
00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,600
Speaker 2: is a KKR backed company that does physician staffing. Mostly

61
00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:39,279
Speaker 2: they like provide doctors for medical practices, is my understanding.

62
00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,360
Speaker 2: They they had some sort of debt payment that they

63
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 2: needed to make recently, but that wasn't like all of

64
00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,560
Speaker 2: the It's not that like all of these companies were

65
00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:54,640
Speaker 2: running into imminent maturities. It is more so that these

66
00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,200
Speaker 2: are companies that were kind of struggling, had been for

67
00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,360
Speaker 2: a long time, really didn't have any hope of repaying

68
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:07,640
Speaker 2: their debt load. And now that the economy is not

69
00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:12,160
Speaker 2: so great and interest rates are higher, lenders are not

70
00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,560
Speaker 2: taking the time to be like, let's try to work

71
00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,800
Speaker 2: out a deal or extend the runway a little bit more,

72
00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,120
Speaker 2: see if we can find a way to turn it around.

73
00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:25,159
Speaker 2: It's more just like game over, guys, it's time to

74
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:25,479
Speaker 2: move on.

75
00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,480
Speaker 1: And none of these names was surprised to us, right,

76
00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,599
Speaker 1: We've been tracking a lot of these situations for a

77
00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,080
Speaker 1: long time. I think all of these have been on

78
00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:31,719
Speaker 1: our calendar.

79
00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:34,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean there were a couple that we didn't

80
00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,920
Speaker 2: that we didn't see coming, the fire protection company, and

81
00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,159
Speaker 2: there was a small biopharma company that makes cancer therapies

82
00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,640
Speaker 2: that weren't necessarily on the radar, but mostly they were.

83
00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:50,040
Speaker 2: I mean, these are the other companies. Some people might

84
00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,360
Speaker 2: call them zombies. Maybe it's an overused term. But these

85
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,320
Speaker 2: were companies that I mean, the writing has been on

86
00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,039
Speaker 2: the wall for a long time. They just had so

87
00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,800
Speaker 2: much debt and it was difficult to see them ever

88
00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:03,680
Speaker 2: being able to pay that off. The question was just

89
00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,560
Speaker 2: when will time be up?

90
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,039
Speaker 1: So they've been just kept alive by this you know,

91
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,080
Speaker 1: flood of cheat money that we've seen over the last

92
00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,800
Speaker 1: ten years, and that finally ended, so they died. Is

93
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:16,120
Speaker 1: that right?

94
00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,599
Speaker 2: Absolutely? I mean, if you're a lender to one of

95
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,280
Speaker 2: these companies and even you know that they're not going

96
00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,159
Speaker 2: to be able to fully repay this stet load, but

97
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,720
Speaker 2: interest rates are super low and you need yield, and

98
00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,080
Speaker 2: you don't want to be dealing with it with a default,

99
00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,840
Speaker 2: with a bankruptcy. Why not come with some really creative

100
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,080
Speaker 2: way to extend the runway. It's a it's a lottery ticket,

101
00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,080
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a chance. But interest rates are higher,

102
00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,320
Speaker 2: you can get yield elsewhere. Now it's time to move on.

103
00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,320
Speaker 1: And that's not just a flash in the pan for

104
00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,679
Speaker 1: this year. Right, This year has also been very busy

105
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,000
Speaker 1: for bankruptcies. How does that stuck up us his history?

106
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:57,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's already quite busy. I mean, the numbers, the

107
00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,520
Speaker 2: precise numbers are escaping me in terms of the level

108
00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,599
Speaker 2: of filings, but I can tell you about the pace

109
00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:10,160
Speaker 2: relative to the historical levels. We're having about the busiest

110
00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,480
Speaker 2: year for large bankruptcies that we have seen since two

111
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,920
Speaker 2: thousand and nine. Two thousand and nine wasn't a very

112
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,200
Speaker 2: happy time, so it's a little bit dark. But I

113
00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,440
Speaker 2: will say this, we're still nowhere close to that two

114
00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,320
Speaker 2: thousand and nine pace. It's usually it changes week to week,

115
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,799
Speaker 2: but it's usually about half as busy as two thousand

116
00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,720
Speaker 2: and nine and just about as busy as twenty twenty.

117
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,360
Speaker 2: They sort of change places sometimes, but it only seems

118
00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,720
Speaker 2: to be getting busier. We're seeing more and more filings.

119
00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,560
Speaker 1: So it's as bad as the twenty twenty shutdown of

120
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,320
Speaker 1: the entire global economy, which really did throw a lot

121
00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,080
Speaker 1: of companies against the wall.

122
00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. But as I said earlier, this

123
00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,039
Speaker 2: time it's a it's more organic. It's not some wild

124
00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,360
Speaker 2: rogue wave that was caused by, you know, a fatal virus.

125
00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,159
Speaker 2: This is simply money is more more expensive now, the

126
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:02,479
Speaker 2: economy is a little rickety.

127
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,320
Speaker 1: So neither of those things seem like they're going to

128
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,800
Speaker 1: change anytime soon. If anything, rates probably stay higher for longer.

129
00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,600
Speaker 1: The economy is not in great shape. Does that mean

130
00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,840
Speaker 1: this trend continues? Does it get worse from here?

131
00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,000
Speaker 2: For sure? I mean I haven't I haven't spoken to

132
00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 2: anyone recently who is under the impression that this building

133
00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:28,920
Speaker 2: distress is just going to disappear. I mean your default forecasts, Ferry.

134
00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,400
Speaker 2: Some people are extremely bearish, think that there are going

135
00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,120
Speaker 2: to be tons and tons of filings, it's going to

136
00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,560
Speaker 2: be a big tsunami. Other people are more conservative, but

137
00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,480
Speaker 2: the general consensus is up more defaults, more bankruptcies.

138
00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:42,800
Speaker 1: And what does this say about the broad state of

139
00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:44,880
Speaker 1: credit markets? I mean, we've been talking for a long

140
00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,840
Speaker 1: time about a credit crunch, the easy money era being over,

141
00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,280
Speaker 1: and as we've said, companies have too much debt. Is

142
00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,000
Speaker 1: this really the beginning of the end.

143
00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,440
Speaker 2: If you're a low quality borrower, you're going to have

144
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:04,160
Speaker 2: a hard time refinancing your opplique or getting reasonably priced debt.

145
00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,240
Speaker 2: It is as simple as that. And there are a

146
00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,880
Speaker 2: lot of low quality borrowers out there, so I would

147
00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,840
Speaker 2: say that's that is the biggest takeaway so far.

148
00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,680
Speaker 1: Is it isolated to a particular sector? You know, last

149
00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,640
Speaker 1: time around, we saw a big retail crunch. We've seen

150
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,080
Speaker 1: energy get hit pretty hard in the past, but is

151
00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,040
Speaker 1: you know, healthcare is also kind of undistressed. But are

152
00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:28,520
Speaker 1: there any sectors that really stand out?

153
00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,440
Speaker 2: You know, retail, We've seen a couple of retailers run

154
00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,000
Speaker 2: into trouble this year, but a lot of the crummy

155
00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:40,199
Speaker 2: retailers were shaken out in twenty twenty years before. Healthcare

156
00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,360
Speaker 2: is a sector that comes up a lot because wages

157
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,680
Speaker 2: have been a big problem broadly in the healthcare space.

158
00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,560
Speaker 2: So if those don't come down soon, you're going to

159
00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,240
Speaker 2: see more trouble in that area. And of course, real estate,

160
00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,760
Speaker 2: especially commercial real estate, just tons of debt and offices

161
00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,840
Speaker 2: are not filling up the way that they need to

162
00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:07,520
Speaker 2: to support those debt levels. So healthcare cri that they're

163
00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:08,200
Speaker 2: coming up a lot.

164
00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,439
Speaker 1: The word you use in your piece is zombies. That's

165
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,800
Speaker 1: an interesting concept. I mean, these companies, you know, they're

166
00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,720
Speaker 1: sort of living dead. They're sort of stumbling through with

167
00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,200
Speaker 1: you know, cheap money keeping them alive, but there is

168
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,040
Speaker 1: no reason for them to live. I mean, we may

169
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,800
Speaker 1: have an emotional attachments to companies like bed Bath and

170
00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,679
Speaker 1: Beyond and Radio Chat for various reasons. And obviously there's

171
00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,800
Speaker 1: a loss of jobs and there's a big impact on communities.

172
00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:36,280
Speaker 1: But you know, in you know, harsh, you know there

173
00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,959
Speaker 1: capitalistic terms, do we really care about their demise?

174
00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is really interesting to me. I was speaking

175
00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:47,959
Speaker 2: with Ed Altman, who is a pretty famous finance professor

176
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,560
Speaker 2: at NYU. He invented something called the Z score. It's

177
00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,960
Speaker 2: a default prediction metric, and I asked him. We were

178
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,040
Speaker 2: talking about repeat bankruptcies, so called Chapter twenty two's, and

179
00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,560
Speaker 2: I asked him, like, why does it matter if companies

180
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,480
Speaker 2: keep failing over and over again? Like who cares? The

181
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,719
Speaker 2: people stay employed and you know, we get to keep

182
00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,480
Speaker 2: going to some some retailer that we like. And his

183
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:13,000
Speaker 2: take on that was, this is money and time and

184
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,200
Speaker 2: energy that could be put into more productive endeavors. That's

185
00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,880
Speaker 2: why it matters. I thought it was fascinating. I haven't

186
00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,480
Speaker 2: thought about it like that. So these these are these

187
00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,800
Speaker 2: kind of zombie companies that maybe don't really have a

188
00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,600
Speaker 2: reason to exist. The people that are taking care of

189
00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:34,080
Speaker 2: these firms and employed by them, it'll be painful for

190
00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:39,480
Speaker 2: them to disappear or shrink substantially, but it may be

191
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 2: more productive overall to shift those resources that are propping

192
00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,040
Speaker 2: up something that just shouldn't be alive in its current

193
00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,080
Speaker 2: form and moving them into some other area of the economy.

194
00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,600
Speaker 1: So short term pain, but maybe long term game for

195
00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,600
Speaker 1: the US economy. But you mentioned repeat bankruptcies. I mean,

196
00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,280
Speaker 1: as we call them chapter twenty twos, that just seems

197
00:10:58,280 --> 00:10:59,839
Speaker 1: like a waste of time. I mean, you know, is

198
00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:02,000
Speaker 1: the bankruptcy system really working in this country?

199
00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,760
Speaker 2: Such a good question. Yeah, I mean, we have seen

200
00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,480
Speaker 2: more chapter twenty twos again, in line with the general

201
00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,000
Speaker 2: rise in bankruptcies, more chapter twenty twos this year than

202
00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:20,959
Speaker 2: we've seen since two thousand and nine. And what does

203
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,080
Speaker 2: it say about the bankruptcy system. I mean, it's a

204
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 2: little bit embarrassing because in the US, restructuring plans aren't

205
00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,800
Speaker 2: supposed to get approved by a federal judge unless there's

206
00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,000
Speaker 2: some specific language. But the general idea is that you

207
00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,440
Speaker 2: need to not go bankrupt again. It needs to be

208
00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,640
Speaker 2: pretty clear that this plan is going to fix the

209
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,040
Speaker 2: company's problems, because the bankruptcy court can do all kinds

210
00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,160
Speaker 2: of things that you can't get anywhere else. You can

211
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,880
Speaker 2: just reject leases, you can force people to accept less

212
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,439
Speaker 2: than their owne all in the name of restructuring a company.

213
00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,120
Speaker 2: So it's not great. It doesn't mean the bankruptcy system

214
00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 2: is broken. But seeing an uptick in repeat filers is

215
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,440
Speaker 2: it's it's ugly. You don't love it.

216
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,040
Speaker 1: It's supposed to be the best system in the world.

217
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 1: But that's that's that's an interesting statement. But before we

218
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,960
Speaker 1: talk to jam and platel Boomberg Intelligence, what's the next

219
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:16,920
Speaker 1: big story to watch on your beat? Jeremy, what else

220
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:17,800
Speaker 1: do we need to worry about?

221
00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:24,000
Speaker 2: What is the next big story? That's a hard one

222
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,480
Speaker 2: to answer, James, because all of a sudden, we've gotten

223
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:31,040
Speaker 2: so busy that I feel like I'm treading water. This

224
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,280
Speaker 2: is this is the thing that we have been waiting for.

225
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:38,080
Speaker 2: It's it's it's felt like when are rate's going to

226
00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,679
Speaker 2: go up? And what is that going to mean? And

227
00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,320
Speaker 2: kind of out of nowhere here it seems like the

228
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:49,000
Speaker 2: mood has just flipped and there are lots of companies

229
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,760
Speaker 2: that are that are on the cusp. Lenders are organizing

230
00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,440
Speaker 2: all the time and they're concerned about their debt holdings.

231
00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,319
Speaker 2: So the big story is, uh, stay glued to your

232
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,040
Speaker 2: terminals at Bloomberg dot com because there are many more

233
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:03,960
Speaker 2: markruptcies to come.

234
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,480
Speaker 1: Great stuff. Jeremy Hill from Bloomberg News, thanks so much

235
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,560
Speaker 1: for joining us. Do as Jeremy said, read all of

236
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,040
Speaker 1: his scoops on the Bloomberg terminal and of course at

237
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,679
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com. Moving on to another big topic. As

238
00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:16,880
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, we are very fortunate to have with

239
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,199
Speaker 1: us Jamin Patel, who looks at utilities for Bloomberg Intelligence.

240
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,000
Speaker 1: What's going on with utilities?

241
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:22,319
Speaker 3: Jam in?

242
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,800
Speaker 1: Tons of bad news out there is Jeremy's just outlined

243
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:26,960
Speaker 1: for us. Shouldn't we just be taking all our cash

244
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,080
Speaker 1: and keeping it in a mattress right now, or at

245
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,719
Speaker 1: very least in an easy access saving his account with

246
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,440
Speaker 1: a five percent yield? I mean, why should we be

247
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:35,480
Speaker 1: looking at utilities?

248
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:40,040
Speaker 3: Well, that easy access account may give you a five

249
00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:41,560
Speaker 3: percent yield, but how long is they're going to give

250
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,720
Speaker 3: you that for? Right? If reads start coming down and

251
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:50,080
Speaker 3: I'm not calling for indecline anytime soon, but if they do,

252
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,360
Speaker 3: then you want to start looking at something that you

253
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,920
Speaker 3: can tie your money up in for a little bit longer.

254
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,920
Speaker 3: And that's why utilally bond. A lot of people would

255
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,960
Speaker 3: say utili stocks too, but we'll talk about the differences

256
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:06,560
Speaker 3: between those two. It's interesting that, you know, we started

257
00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,280
Speaker 3: this off talking about bankruptcies, because bankruptcies in the utility

258
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,920
Speaker 3: sector and one of the reasons why the sector, at

259
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:21,040
Speaker 3: least at the operating utilities level, is considered a refuge

260
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:25,480
Speaker 3: during times of turmoil. We've had very few bankruptcies. They've

261
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:30,720
Speaker 3: always been related to something very specific going on as

262
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,360
Speaker 3: opposed to what happens with the sector as a whole.

263
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 3: In fact, I beyond the pg and E bankruptcies which

264
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,560
Speaker 3: we're all familiar with, I can only remember in the

265
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,720
Speaker 3: thirty years I've covered this sector Public Service in New

266
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,880
Speaker 3: Hampshire and Texas New Mexico Power, and in both those cases,

267
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,960
Speaker 3: bondholders came out whole, and the same with PGEN. In fact,

268
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,480
Speaker 3: with PGNE, bondholders weren't secured at the utility level and

269
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 3: they came out secure.

270
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 1: Other than those companies. Just my, what what are we

271
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 1: talking about in utilities? Because it does cover a huge

272
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,080
Speaker 1: range of companies, right it does?

273
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,120
Speaker 3: It does? You've got you know, over over one hundred

274
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:14,200
Speaker 3: different utilities around the country. Uh, most of them are

275
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:20,520
Speaker 3: fall on the investor owned utility sector. And then you've

276
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,760
Speaker 3: you've got the you've got the holding companies. Now, if

277
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,400
Speaker 3: you're down at the operating utility level, imagine you know,

278
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,160
Speaker 3: you're in a situation where you have a monopoly in

279
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,560
Speaker 3: your service territory. Your rates, the rates that you charge

280
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,120
Speaker 3: your customers, and therefore your revenues and your earning stream

281
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,520
Speaker 3: based on a return on equity is almost guaranteed, regardless

282
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,240
Speaker 3: of what the usage is, what weather impact there is,

283
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,600
Speaker 3: and so on. Uh. In the event of a crisis,

284
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,560
Speaker 3: as we saw with Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, we've

285
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,000
Speaker 3: seen with fpn L in Florida, we saw in Houston

286
00:15:55,040 --> 00:16:01,360
Speaker 3: with CNP, if your assets are destroyed or or very

287
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,880
Speaker 3: heavily damaged, you have the right to have an adjustment

288
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,680
Speaker 3: made your rates to cover those costs over a period

289
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:11,800
Speaker 3: of time. UH. And you can go out and issue

290
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,120
Speaker 3: debt in the meanwhile, right, So you had you know,

291
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,000
Speaker 3: PGIN was very much a one off sort of case

292
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,520
Speaker 3: in my opinion. But you've got the situation where at

293
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:26,320
Speaker 3: the operating utility level, you've almost got a quasi treasury

294
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:28,600
Speaker 3: type of bond.

295
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,600
Speaker 1: So as you say there are a refuge, we are

296
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:37,080
Speaker 1: saying great economic financial turmoil right now. So in terms

297
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,280
Speaker 1: of you know, the utility picks. You know, what what

298
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,040
Speaker 1: do you where do you look in terms of like

299
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,120
Speaker 1: what types of utilities? You know, where do you look?

300
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,360
Speaker 1: What's what's the best place to be in right now?

301
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:51,320
Speaker 3: Okay, So with that safety comes a price, and that's

302
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,760
Speaker 3: generally lower yels, right as you would expect. And at

303
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,600
Speaker 3: the operating utility level you've got, you know, you've got

304
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 3: a fair narrow range depending upon the maturity that you're

305
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,520
Speaker 3: looking at a narrow range of bond spreads. So the

306
00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,320
Speaker 3: real interest tends to come in and the real credit

307
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,600
Speaker 3: risk tends to come in at the parent level, right

308
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,760
Speaker 3: because the parent itself is not regulated. It's reliant on

309
00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,000
Speaker 3: dividends coming up from the utilities to service both the

310
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,840
Speaker 3: shareholder dividend as well as to service its own debt. Now,

311
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,840
Speaker 3: if you have a parent with what just one utility,

312
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,159
Speaker 3: clearly that's that's a high risk situation, right. So and

313
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,920
Speaker 3: that's what we had with PG and E. What investors

314
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,200
Speaker 3: see with Edison International. If you if PGN owned more

315
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,160
Speaker 3: than one utility, the parent may not have had quite

316
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,680
Speaker 3: the same problems that it did. But in this case,

317
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,320
Speaker 3: the parent filed for bankruptcy. So what we look for

318
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,560
Speaker 3: our companies that have multiple diverse utilities operating across multiple jurisdictions,

319
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:58,040
Speaker 3: Companies like Excellent Duke Energy, American Electric Power, and so on.

320
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,600
Speaker 3: These these are companies that do rely on the dividends

321
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 3: coming up to the parent to service their debt. But

322
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,719
Speaker 3: in the event that you have a situation at one

323
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,920
Speaker 3: particular utility, you still have cash flows coming up from

324
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:12,560
Speaker 3: the others.

325
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,840
Speaker 1: So you're looking essentially for diversification.

326
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 3: Yes, across jurisdictions as well as geographies.

327
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 1: Okay, but you mentioned there are credit risks. Are you

328
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,280
Speaker 1: concerned about liquidity or access to capital markets there?

329
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 3: Certainly not at the operating utility level. At the parent level,

330
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:34,000
Speaker 3: one of the concerns we've seen is that as we've

331
00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:38,680
Speaker 3: enter this period of high growth, largely driven by renewables

332
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,440
Speaker 3: and perhaps accelerated by the Inflation Reduction Act, there's been

333
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,959
Speaker 3: a significant amount of capex projected and actual down at

334
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,879
Speaker 3: the utility level. Now, that comes with borrowing. Right now,

335
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,320
Speaker 3: if you think of traditional utility, the way they've financed

336
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,959
Speaker 3: their capex and investments is approximately fifty percent debt and

337
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:02,240
Speaker 3: fifty percent equity. Now that equity comes from retain cash flow.

338
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,200
Speaker 3: Right If the capex is higher than you expect. Where

339
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,800
Speaker 3: is that additional equity going to come in from. We've

340
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,119
Speaker 3: seen in many instances it's a reduction in dividends that

341
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,680
Speaker 3: would go up to the parent, and we've actually seen

342
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,560
Speaker 3: equity coming down from the parent level. Right So where

343
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:26,400
Speaker 3: does the parent get that cash? Utilally generally don't issue equity.

344
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,479
Speaker 3: They tend to be very e retician to do that.

345
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,520
Speaker 3: Although we've seen a little bit of convertible equity being

346
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 3: picking up a little bit here, but they don't buy

347
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,679
Speaker 3: that back there stocks either. They just don't have the

348
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,919
Speaker 3: cash flow to do that. So what we've been seeing

349
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,359
Speaker 3: is an increasing level of parent debt and that raises

350
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,920
Speaker 3: a little bit of a concern. Right now, where does

351
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,720
Speaker 3: that concern come in? It's if you're looking at purely statistics,

352
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:58,520
Speaker 3: credit statistics and regular metrics like leverage and debt service

353
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,440
Speaker 3: and so on, yes, then it's a little bit of

354
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 3: a concern. But we did we did a little bit

355
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 3: of a study recently where we looked at across the

356
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 3: entire sector. We looked at the book equity of the

357
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,200
Speaker 3: operating utilities, took a multiple of that based upon where

358
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,120
Speaker 3: these have traded or sold or where pieces of them

359
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,160
Speaker 3: have sold recently, which was about a two times multiple.

360
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,159
Speaker 3: That gave us almost a trillion dollars of equity. Potential

361
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 3: equity that can be released and released not in the

362
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,680
Speaker 3: sense that the utility would have to go in and

363
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,160
Speaker 3: the parent would have to go in and sell that utility.

364
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 3: They're able to monetize pieces of this and we've seen

365
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 3: that happening with First Energy Douke Energy recently where they've

366
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 3: sold pieces of their subsidiaries uh to to pay down

367
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:51,160
Speaker 3: debt at the parent level.

368
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,679
Speaker 1: And listeners can get that. So they they look up

369
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,160
Speaker 1: your bio on the terminal, can they change?

370
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,920
Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, it's in. It's in something that I called

371
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 3: over nine hundred billion equity value could drive utilities firepower.

372
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 1: Okay, well look that up, thank you. The other big

373
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,479
Speaker 1: concern right now is rising interest rates. How does that

374
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 1: affect utilities in comparison to other sectors.

375
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,679
Speaker 3: So, because utilities are regulated and all of their costs

376
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 3: or most of their costs based upon how the regulators

377
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,200
Speaker 3: view them and whether they approve them or not, are

378
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,399
Speaker 3: passed through, right, So if you've got any short term

379
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 3: debt that's floating, you can apply for that to be

380
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,160
Speaker 3: passed through as an increation rate. Most of their death though,

381
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,159
Speaker 3: is fixed. Right. Utilities are very very big borrowers, but

382
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 3: they tend to and they are able to borrow for

383
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 3: thirty year bonds. So a lot of their debt, at

384
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 3: least at the operating level, is thirty year bonds. So

385
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,919
Speaker 3: in the immediate term they are perhaps more protected from

386
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 3: higher interest rates than pretty much any other sector.

387
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 1: But on the flip side, if you're a holder, you've

388
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 1: been hit pretty hard on the duration.

389
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 3: Right, yes, But then that's you know, pretty much any sector,

390
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 3: right if you're going to own a twenty or thirty

391
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 3: year moond in technology or banks or where have you.

392
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 3: So that's the choice pot hold the right and the

393
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,159
Speaker 3: risks that they run pretty much in any sector.

394
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 1: So if you're looking at just sort of you know,

395
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 1: the big picture now as we're heading into potentially a recession,

396
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 1: you know, potentially stagflation, there's all sorts of other big

397
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 1: risks out there. Is the utility sector a hedge against this?

398
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 1: Is it something that you can just you know, protect

399
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 1: your your returns with and clip the coup? I mean,

400
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 1: how do you how do you envisage it as a

401
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 1: big part of a credit portfolio.

402
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I don't know if I would call it

403
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,400
Speaker 3: a hedge, but I would I would say that if

404
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 3: you want to look at increasing your waiting to protect

405
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 3: your portfolio from volatility, then that's something that you may

406
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,959
Speaker 3: want to consider, right. You know, Perhaps the biggest risk

407
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 3: that we've got here, other than what I talked about

408
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 3: at the holding company, is that as you go through inflation,

409
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 3: customers are being hit on multiple fronts, right, and less

410
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 3: able to afford increases in the utility bills. Now, if

411
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 3: you go back several years when natural gas prices was

412
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 3: seven eight nine dollars in mcf, and then we saw

413
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 3: that decline coming down to two three dollars, it was

414
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 3: very easy, or I should say much easier for regulators

415
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 3: to allow increase in rates for the energy component excuse

416
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,400
Speaker 3: me for the delivery component of a utility bill, because

417
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 3: the energy portion was coming down, so customer bills weren't

418
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 3: actually going up, right. And then, of course, as we

419
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 3: saw natural gas prices rally through the last year, that

420
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 3: became much more difficult. Now, regulators usually loath to give

421
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 3: rate increases that are in excess of inflation. So with

422
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 3: inflation being as high as it is that gives them

423
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 3: a little bit more room. Gas prices having come down

424
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 3: again gives them a little bit more room for their

425
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 3: transmission distribution. But if you start tee natural gas prices

426
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 3: and power prices escalate from here for whatever reason, then

427
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 3: rate increases may become a little bit more contentious.

428
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 1: And on the consumer side, no matter how how they

429
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 1: get hit by inflation. Mean, you can easily dispense with

430
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 1: eating out and buying luxury goods, but you have to

431
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: pay your utility bills. You need the heat and light.

432
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 3: Right absolutely, and if you can't afford them, that's one

433
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 3: you know, this is one sector where low income families

434
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 3: can get help from the state.

435
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: Right before we sign off, Jamie, I wanted to ask

436
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: you about ESG because it is such a big topic

437
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 1: for investors, and you know, some of these companies aren't

438
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: the cleanest, there are some issues. You know, How does

439
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: how does this fit with an ESG credit portfolio?

440
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 3: Well, I think I think it fits in very well

441
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 3: because utilities are the biggest issues of green bonds in

442
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 3: the in the country as as a sector. If you

443
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 3: go back, I want to say maybe ten or fifteen years,

444
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 3: coal accounted for fifty percent of the fuel used for

445
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 3: generation that is now more a percentage that applies to

446
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 3: natural gas, and you've seen solar and wind pick up significantly,

447
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 3: So you know, we many of these companies have committed

448
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 3: to zero carbon, depending on the time period that's involved.

449
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 3: The government is completely behind them. Nuclear is becoming a

450
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 3: bigger factor, a bigger factor from the standpoint. It's not

451
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 3: going to decline to the extent that we thought it

452
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 3: was maybe just a decade ago, because it's recognized as

453
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 3: a clean fuel.

454
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: Thanks very much, Jamon Patel of Bloomberg Intelligence. You can

455
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: read all of his great analysis on the Bloomberg Terminal.

456
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 1: Do check it out, and thanks again to Jeremy Hill

457
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: from Bloomberg News. Read all of his scoops on the

458
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: terminal and at Bloomberg dot Com. I'm James Crombie. It's

459
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 1: been a pleasure having you. See you next week on

460
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: the Credit Edge.