1 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Allaway. Tracy, I think 3 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: that recently we may have seen one of the most 4 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: pivotal events in the history of money. Uh, that is 5 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: a large claim, But I think I know what you're 6 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: talking about, Facebook's announcement about starting its own cryptocurrency called Libra, right, Like, 7 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think it's definitely going to be or 8 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: that it's going to work, or that it's gonna take off, 9 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: And in fact, I'm kind of skeptical that it will 10 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: ever get launched at all because of all of the 11 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: regulatory and political scrutiny that Facebook is under. But this 12 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: is quite a walk back. No, No, I know it 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: sounds like a walk back, but I think that, like 14 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 1: with all existing capsts, it just seems like a really 15 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: big deal to me that one of the biggest companies 16 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: in the world is trying to launch its own global currency. Like, 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: I think we kind of have to just step back 18 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: for a second and be like, Wow, this is like 19 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: pretty wild futuristic sci fi stuff here. So I will 20 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: say I am sort of bullish on the idea of 21 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: a global company, uh, sort of nibbling at the edges 22 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: of traditional sovereignty. And I don't know if you ever 23 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: read the Margaret Atwood book, but she talks about how 24 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: in the future companies basically control the world and people 25 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: live in corporate compounds. I can see that aspect of it. 26 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: But I gotta say I'm a little bit more skeptical 27 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 1: about exactly what Facebook is proposing here. Again, don't get 28 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: me wrong, like I have plenty of skepticism on all 29 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: kinds of front I just think that it's pretty wild 30 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: and has the potential, in at least one version of 31 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: the future, to be pretty enormous. That's what I'm saying. 32 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: Maybe I maybe I oversold it. So one of the 33 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: things that it was really interesting is in their launch 34 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: material where they promoted Libra, their new cryptocurrency, they made 35 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: a really big focus on, you know, serving the the 36 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: underbanked around the world, people largely in emerging markets, who 37 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: don't have access to traditional financial services, whose home currencies 38 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: may be unstable, who don't easily get access to bank accounts, 39 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: And you know, it's one of these things which that 40 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 1: does seem like a big opportunity. But on the other hand, 41 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: it's a very happy sheen to put on, here's this 42 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: company that's worth like a half a trillion dollars, And 43 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: of course it's very feel goody to say, oh, we're 44 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: gonna serve all these people that the rest of the 45 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: that all these other financial institutions have failed so far. Right, 46 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: So two things there. First of all, I'm very upset 47 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: that they've chosen Libra to be the name of this cryptocurrency, 48 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: because it's my horoscope sign, and now I feel what 49 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: all the people called Alexa felt like when Amazon launched 50 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: that thing. But secondly, I totally agree with you on 51 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: the underbanked point. And I think one interesting point of 52 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: comparison is that cryptocurrencies like bitcoin have been saying similar 53 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: things for a very very long time. So it's worth 54 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 1: asking what is Facebook going to do in that space 55 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: that bitcoin and other crypto coins don't already do. Right, 56 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: the advocates and a lot of the developers and even 57 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: a lot of the speculators in this space, a lot 58 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: of them have gotten very rich and they try to 59 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: come up with the story about how they're doing something 60 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: very good for the world, and they usually say, oh, 61 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: you in America, you don't understand the importance of all 62 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: this stuff because you have a stable currency and easy 63 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: to access banks. But this is all we're doing something 64 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: very important for the world, and obviously a lot of 65 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: that is just spin. And also it's just a lot 66 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: more complicated than that, because the truth of the matter 67 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: is there really aren't that many people yet and even 68 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: in the near future, in the developing world, actually using 69 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: any of these cryptocurrencies that people are touting as a 70 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: benefit to them, right, And it kind of gets back 71 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: to a really important theme, which is the problem of 72 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: having the under banked out there, or the problem of 73 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,799 Speaker 1: having an unstable sovereign currency or a currency that people 74 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: don't trust. Is that actually a technological problem or is 75 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: that a political problem? Right? And another big problem is 76 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 1: that at root, a lot of this is just about 77 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: poverty rather than anything having to do with financial institutions. 78 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: That being said, there is perhaps an opportunity for some 79 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: new crypto based currency, whether it's a decentralized one like 80 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 1: bitcoin or something, or maybe something like Libra, to to 81 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: make a dent. And so today's guest I'm really looking 82 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: forward to it is someone who's actually done the work, 83 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: someone who doesn't just sit on Twitter and say, oh, 84 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: this is going to be really good for the underbank. 85 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: But someone who has actually talked to people in unstable 86 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: markets about how money works and what it would take 87 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: in theory to introduce a new, more stable cryptocurrency that 88 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: actually benefited their lives. Great, I can't wait. Okay, So 89 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: without further ado, I want to bring in Jill Carlson. 90 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: She is a co founder of the Open Money Initiative, 91 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: and unlike everyone else, as I said, she's actually talked 92 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: to people and done the real work to see what 93 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: it would take to introduce crypto into people's lives. So, Jill, 94 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. I'm 95 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: happy to be here starting to do the work, starting 96 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: to do the work. But what I've seen so far 97 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 1: has been very impressive, and we'll talk about it. But 98 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: before we get into that, I'm just curious. What is 99 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: your background? How did you get interested in cryptocurrency? Yeah, so, 100 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: I actually started my career working in finance. I was 101 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: trading sovereign debt and derivatives at Goldman Um, and in 102 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: particular I was on the Latin America desk, and that 103 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: was actually the lens through which I first got introduced 104 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: to cryptocurrency. Um, it was through trading Argentine debt through 105 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: the default in and early in I had a broker 106 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: come to me and you know, he would have some 107 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: market color for me. Every morning. There was always something 108 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: that he was excited to share, and one morning that 109 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: thing that he was excited to share with me was 110 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: all about bitcoin. Now this was early. The only context 111 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: I had heard of bitcoin at this point was people 112 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: trying to buy drugs with it on the internet. So 113 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: I was very skeptical and I was like, man, I 114 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: don't know, this sounds even sketchy earthan the pace, so 115 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a good idea. But 116 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: he kind of dragged me, kicking and screaming down the 117 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: down the bitcoin rabbit hole, if you will. So what 118 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: did you discover as you went down the bitcoin rabbit hole? 119 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: What brought you to being co founder of the Open 120 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: Money Initiative? You must have seen something in it? Yeah, Well, 121 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: the thing that this broker actually, in particular, that he 122 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: convinced me of was that there was something really compelling 123 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: there that he was unable to do previously right, And 124 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: that thing for him was to get his money offshore, 125 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: to get his money out of the Argentine Paso and 126 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: that ability to use this to basically evade capital controls, 127 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: right is what he was doing that really piqued my 128 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: interest because again that was something that you couldn't do before. 129 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: You know, previously people were trying to smuggle money out 130 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: of the country in suitcases. I remember talking to people 131 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: I ended up doing research on the subject on Argentina 132 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: and cryptocurrency in capital controls, and I remember speaking to 133 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: people who had literally tried to smuggle money out of 134 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: the country again in suitcases and been caught by sniffer 135 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: dogs on the boat to Uruguay, all kinds of crazy stuff. 136 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: And so then here, all of a sudden, you have 137 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: this digital alternative that in many ways promises to to 138 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: take out a lot of that trouble that people were 139 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: having in in again evading capital controls. Now, whether or 140 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: not that's a good thing for the world, whether or 141 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: not this is something we want to enable or not, 142 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: it's a phenomenon that cryptocurrency has enabled. And so that 143 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: that was what really piqued my interest, and that's the 144 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: thing that actually is stuck with me throughout the last 145 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: five years that I've been working in this space of 146 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: here's this thing that this enables that no one has 147 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 1: been able to do before. It's interesting that you said 148 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: your first introduction to knowing anything about bitcoin was that 149 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: people bought drugs with it online, and then the next 150 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: not me, this is this is this is all anyone 151 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: was talking about. Please, I worked at Goldman their drug tests. Sure, um, 152 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: we could have been dealing um. But the but then 153 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: the next thing was capital controls. And although those seemed 154 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 1: very different, I mean, in the end, the consistent category 155 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: is these are the things the governments don't want you 156 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: to do. Yeah, exactly, and I mean I I actually 157 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: stand by this as one of the sort of primary 158 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 1: underpinnings of that question. What is cryptocurrency good for at 159 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: the end of the day, A lot of it is 160 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: regulatory arbitrage. Now you can have all kinds of opinions 161 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: about is that good, bad, ugly? A lot of it 162 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: is very ugly, but you know it can be interesting nonetheless, 163 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: So sorry to press on this point, but is there 164 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: not like a sort of judgment call going on here, 165 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: like you said earlier, whether or not this is a 166 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: good thing that people are able to evade capital controls. 167 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: But the fact that you know, you're sort of talking 168 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: about and promoting the use case of doing that um 169 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: in certain countries, it seems like almost a judgment call 170 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: on the legitimacy of those countries or the legitimacy of 171 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: the regimes or legal system. They're like, how do you 172 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: think about the I'm struggling to find the word, but 173 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: I guess like the moral aspect of this or how 174 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: this fits in with existing government structures, it's really hairy. 175 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: And and I'll clarify my organization, the Open Money Initiative, 176 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: and the work that I've done, it's all just been 177 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: research oriented, and so it's less about trying to push 178 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: an agenda of this is right, this is wrong, and 179 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: it's more about trying to look at what's going on today, 180 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: what the world looks like, and then present that to 181 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: the world so that people can make their own judgment calls. 182 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: But I mean, I'll be very up front. We'll probably 183 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time this morning talking about how, 184 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: you know, people who are being impoverished in Venezuela may 185 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: or may not be using bitcoin in order to escape 186 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: some of that poverty that, from what I've seen, has 187 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: been really inflicted on them. By the government. But at 188 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: the same time, it's important to also acknowledge that, you know, 189 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: who's probably using bitcoin just as much, if not more 190 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: than anyone sort of within the country of Venezuela who's 191 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: being impoverished by these government policies is the government officials themselves, right, 192 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 1: are also using these tools, and so it is very 193 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: important to remember that any time we're talking about whether 194 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 1: it's Bitcoin, whether it's other technology, whether it's other areas 195 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: of sort of regulatory disruption. Anytime you introduce a new 196 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: tool to the market, you don't get to choose who's 197 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: using it, and it's going to be used by sort 198 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: of the good guys and the bad guys alike. All right, 199 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the Open Money Initiative. And like 200 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 1: I said in the beginning, you know, there's a lot 201 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: of people that from their fancy start up offices in 202 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: San Francisco tweet about how they're doing great stuff for 203 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: the world and bringing financial inclusion and financial services to 204 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: the under bank. But you've actually gone and talk to 205 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: people and gotten behind the computer screen to learn about 206 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: the potential or what's not working. So what is the 207 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: open Money Initiative and sort of describe the work that 208 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: you've done. Yeah, so we are a research organization. We're 209 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: not for profit. That was a very important, uh, sort 210 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: of foundation for us because we can't be going in 211 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: trying to do kind of objective research if we're pushing 212 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: a product, and so that again very objective neutral. We 213 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: have partnered with and received funding from many organizations within 214 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 1: the technology community, within the cryptocurrency world, and then also 215 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: from outside from the activism community. For example, the Human 216 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: Rights Foundation is a huge supporter of us. But again, 217 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: all of those organizations have given us this funding because 218 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: they have an interest in learning sort of the objective 219 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: truths or facts of what's going on on the ground. Now. 220 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: Our mission is to get a better understanding of what 221 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: money systems look like in closed economy, is or failing 222 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: financial systems. We went to what we believe is sort 223 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: of the most extreme case of this that exists today, 224 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: which is Venezuela, as our first case study to get 225 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: a better understanding of what the world looks like. They're 226 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: now I have sort of this background in cryptocurrency, my 227 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: other two co founders due to an extent as well. 228 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: But the questions that we went in asking, we're not 229 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: just about bitcoin and cryptocurrency, but rather we're asking the 230 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: question of what are people doing today in Venezuela, What 231 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: are the sort of hacks that they're using in order 232 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: to survive and in some cases even thrive, And then 233 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: how can we take those and present those again back 234 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: to the world so that people can, you know, whether 235 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: it's these builders at these tech companies or again people 236 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: in the activism community, whoever it is, take it, learn 237 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: from it, and build with it. So Joe knows that 238 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: I have a secret obsession with anthropology and ethnography, So 239 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: I'm really curious. You know, you decide on Venezuela as 240 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 1: your test case. You have the crypto background, but you're 241 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: setting your sights on something much more broader, which is 242 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: how people are using money in general. All right, so 243 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: you're setting out to learn more about this subject. How 244 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: exactly did you go about doing it? Yeah, So one 245 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: of the first decisions we had to make was whether 246 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: or not to go to Venezuela itself, and we determined 247 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: that at the time, this was back in February of 248 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: this year, there was a lot of upheaval going on, 249 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: a lot of political uncertainty, and we determined that as 250 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: an American, a Canadian who's basically American, and then also 251 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: of Venezuelan himself. So my other two co founders and 252 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: I we decided that it was not wise for us 253 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: to try to go to Venezuela itself, so we did 254 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: the next best thing, which was to go to the border. 255 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: So we went to a city called Cucuta, which is 256 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: in Colombia but it kind of might as well be 257 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: in Venezuela, and spent a lot of time there talking 258 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: to people who had just crossed the border, people who 259 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: were crossing borders sort of intra day. One important thing 260 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: to note about this research. The first thing people always 261 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: ask me when I start talking about this work I've 262 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: been doing. They say, oh, cool, So like how many 263 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: people in Venezuela are using bitcoin? And the answer is, 264 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: I have not the slightest idea because the type of 265 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: work that we were doing, the type of research that 266 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: we were interested in, was much less about sort of 267 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: the quantitative or the macro here, but much more about 268 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: what does this actually look like on a day to 269 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: day basis. So, you know, Tracy, you mentioned sort of 270 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: ethnographic or anthropological lenses. That's exactly right. So we would 271 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: sit down with people for two plus hours, and often 272 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: this was in context, you know, in their homes and 273 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: their places of work, even sort of intercepting them on 274 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: the street in the middle of of whatever they were doing, 275 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: and get a really good sense of what their day 276 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: to day lives look like. And often what would come 277 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: out here was we would find these sort of extreme 278 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: edge cases as well. Right, So, rather than looking for 279 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: the men or the average, which is often what you're 280 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: looking for and more kind of quantitative studies, we would 281 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: be looking for outliers and finding out, Okay, what what 282 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: does this guy who is really thriving and has actually 283 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: managed to make a ton of money throughout this crisis, 284 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: what is he doing? Or you know what is what 285 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: is the woman who's managed to make it across the 286 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: border with her family and with her finances intact? What 287 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: did she do right? And then how can we learn 288 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: from that and draw inspiration from it? So whenever I 289 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: read about Venezuela, I just, yeah, obviously just boggles the 290 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: mind that people can survive in such a chaotic system 291 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: in which all money has been essentially rendered worthless. What 292 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: were some of the most striking findings that you came 293 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: across in terms of essentially how people hack the economy 294 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: for their own purposes to survive or thrive. What were 295 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: the things that surprised you. Yeah, so there are a 296 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: lot of things that surprised me. So I'll start with one, 297 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: which is that you know, as I'm sure many of 298 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: your listeners know, the Venezuelan Bolivar has been in a 299 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: state of hyper inflation for the last several years, and 300 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: in the state of extremely high inflation for many years 301 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: before that, to the point where every few years now, 302 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: if not every year, they have to come out with 303 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: a new denomination of boulevard that basically lops off the 304 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: last three zero is because they just can't keep up, 305 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: so a million note would become a hundred thousand right now. 306 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: You would think in this context people would just say, 307 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: the hell with it, We're not going to use the 308 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: boulevard anymore, We're going to move on to some other alternative. 309 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: But in fact that's not the case. There you still 310 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: really need the bolivar to survive, and there are a 311 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: few different reasons for that. One is because it's just 312 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: kind of this this shelling points the natural standard that 313 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,959 Speaker 1: people still resort to and use when when you know, 314 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: making transactions in the economy. Another reason for that is 315 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: that the Venezuelan government mandates that the bolivard is the 316 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: only currency that can be accepted, and so often what 317 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: you would find is we would talk to shopkeepers who 318 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 1: still ran shops in Venezuela or who were sort of 319 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: crossing the border and leaving pine their shops, but what 320 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: they would say is that they would still have to 321 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: denominate everything in bolivar's. They would still have to accept 322 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: bolivars for most of their transactions. But then if you 323 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: went back to their books, and sometimes they would even 324 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: show us their bookkeeping ledgers, they would all be denominated 325 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: in US dollars. And so you have this dynamic where 326 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: people have started to think in alternative of currencies, whether 327 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: that's often you know, in cases like in Caracas, it 328 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: would often be the US dollar. Close to the Colombian 329 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: border or to often be the Colombian pass so close 330 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: to the Brazilian border would often be the Brazilian rail. 331 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: So you'd have these cases where people would be thinking 332 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,479 Speaker 1: in one currency and yet still having to deal and 333 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: transact and list prices in another currency. So you have 334 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: basically a duel or even triple sort of currency system 335 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: that has taken hold, but it's just that no one 336 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: is actually using or a few people are actually yet 337 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: using dollars or pasos, etcetera. And so that's that's one 338 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: example of kind of a quirk that that we've found 339 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: that you know, it's kind of unexpected here. So what 340 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: does that imply about the usage potential of crypto Because 341 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: on the one hand, you do have people basically running 342 00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: parallel currency systems against one one another. But on the 343 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 1: their hand, you have a lingering problem of adoption, right 344 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: like people are just used to the boulevard, as you mentioned, 345 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: and you also have the problem of the government exerting 346 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: pressure on people to use the boulevard and to not 347 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: basically evade regulations by using something like dollars or cryptocurrency. 348 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: So putting it all together, what does that tell us? So, Yeah, 349 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: one interesting thing here about cryptocurrency specifically in Venezuela is 350 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: I mentioned that the boulevard it's mandated to be effectively 351 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 1: the only currency that gets used by the government. Right now, 352 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: there's kind of shades of gray here in terms of 353 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: what gets enforced and where it gets enforced and how 354 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: it's it's very patchy, right, there is very little rule 355 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: of law left in many ways in Venezuela because you 356 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: have to remember, often it's the police or the border guards, etcetera, 357 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: are just as desperate as anybody else to survive, and 358 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: so they kind of decide when and how they'll enforce rules, 359 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: when and how often that enforcement it just takes the 360 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: form of confiscation, right, and it ends up just being 361 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: you know, the police seizing your assets or your cell 362 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: phone or whatever it is to just hold onto for 363 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: themselves for their own enrichment. Now, dollars are way on 364 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: the end of the spectrum of not okay. If you 365 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: are dealing in dollars and you get caught doing so, 366 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: you are going to face some probably pretty serious consequences 367 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: for all kinds of political reasons. Cryptocurrency is interesting because 368 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: it's it's more of a gray area. It's kind of 369 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,479 Speaker 1: pactually enforced um to the point where when we were 370 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: first speaking with people, I was sort of wondering, like, 371 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: what is going on here? Half of these people lying 372 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 1: to us, because you know what people are telling us here, 373 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: it's it's completely incongruous. It doesn't make sense with each other. 374 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 1: But in fact, the Venezuelan government has backed itself into 375 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: an odd kind of corner when it comes to cryptocurrency, 376 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: because the Venezuelan government issued its own cryptocurrency a couple 377 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 1: of years ago back inen called the Petro. Now, we 378 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: can do a deep dive on the Petro if you're interested. 379 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: I have lots of thoughts on that as well. But 380 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: the reality is is that because the Venezuelan government did that, 381 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: the Venezuelan government now faces this sort of weird conundrum 382 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: in which they can't just make a blanket statement of 383 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: cryptocurrency is bad, you're not allowed to use any of it, 384 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: because here they're almost mandating in some cases that their 385 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 1: citizens do use their own cryptocurrency. And so there is 386 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: this sort of gray area where it comes to cryptocurrency 387 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: where people aren't so sure whether it's good bad, whether 388 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: it's going to be enforced or not if they're using it. 389 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: And so we saw some cases where actually people were 390 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: more comfortable using something like bitcoin as opposed to the U. S. Dollars, 391 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: which felt shocking to me. The people that do you 392 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: who's bitcoin in Venezuela talk to me about the sort 393 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 1: of usability issues because it has to be even okay, 394 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: bitcoins more stable. Let's say you can find a retailer 395 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: that will accept it, there have to be all kinds 396 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: of difficulties of getting it, because I can't imagine there 397 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: are people too many people that want to sell bitcoin 398 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: for bolivars, which is the one that most people have. 399 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: Even in the you know, the most developed market of 400 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: the US. Cryptocurreties are sort of famously the U the 401 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: user interfaces for things like well, it's it's just difficult, 402 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: and so I imagine that's only compounded, uh in a 403 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: place where imagine the Internet doesn't work as well, things 404 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: like that. So talk to us about the people that 405 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: have used them. What is that sort of life experience 406 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: like for them. Yeah, so we we only talked to 407 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: a handful of people who used cryptocurrency on kind of 408 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: a daily basis. We talked to a handful more who 409 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: are familiar with it. Maybe it toyed around with it 410 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: at some point, But of those people we spoke to 411 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: who used it pretty consistently, they actually didn't have many complaints. 412 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: They actually had a lot of really good things to 413 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: say about the experience. And so I can walk you 414 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 1: through just kind of one example of how it gets 415 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: used um which came from a young woman. Will call 416 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 1: her Anna. She is a university student in Caracas. She's 417 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: about twenty two years old, and she got introduced to 418 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 1: bitcoin a few years ago now by way of her 419 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: boyfriend who was also an engineer, and they imported a 420 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: couple of mining rigs they call them, so these sort 421 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: of specialized computer hardware systems, and it sounded to me 422 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: like her boyfriend was a little bit of a nerdy guy, 423 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: and he kind of set them up in her parents 424 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: basement and they were running and it was just kind 425 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: of this fun experiment that they were running on the side. Now, 426 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 1: lo and behold, two years later, those bitcoin miners have 427 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: become basically the sole source of income for Anna's family. 428 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: Her dad got laid off since job, her mom doesn't 429 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: is still working, but doesn't make enough money to support 430 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: Anna and her two sisters, etcetera. But those bitcoin miners 431 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: that she and her boyfriend imported a few years ago, 432 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: they pull in about eight hundred dollars a month in bitcoin, 433 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: which is a pretty staggering amount of money in the 434 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: context of Venezuela right now. And so the way that 435 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: she would use this though, she would take the bitcoin 436 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: that was being generated by these miners and she would 437 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: deposit them into an account on a website called Local 438 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: Bitcoins local bitcoins dot com. This is a website that's 439 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: available globally. I compare it a little bit like the 440 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 1: Craigslist of bitcoin um because it has this sort of 441 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: localized web pages depending on where you are in the world. 442 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: But what it enables is you deposit your bitcoin onto there, 443 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: and then all of these bids and offers will pop 444 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: up of people buying and selling bitcoin in your local currency, 445 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: and you can even filter it by who has a 446 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: bank account at your bank, so that it can be 447 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: just a seamless book transfer on that side. And so 448 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: Anna Maria, Anna will deposit the bitcoin onto local Bitcoins, 449 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: and she will look for someone who's looking to buy 450 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: bitcoin who shares her bank account, and she will then 451 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: start a discussion with that trader negotiation. They'll converge on 452 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: a price, and that trader will then send her the 453 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 1: boulevards that she needs as she's cashing out the bitcoin, 454 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: and Anna Maria will put the bitcoin into an escrow 455 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 1: that is run by Local Bitcoins. As soon as Anna 456 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: confirms that she has received the money on her side 457 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: in her bank account, Local bitcoins releases that bitcoin out 458 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: of the scrow to the trader. So this all sounds 459 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: maybe a little bit convoluted, but when she started to 460 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: describe how this sort of happened in her day to 461 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: day basis, it was actually quite seamless, to the point 462 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: where she would even do this just as she was 463 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: walking to the store. Because here's the critical point to 464 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: take away is that what this enabled her to do 465 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: was not only to receive the income in the form 466 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: of bitcoin, but also to cash it out just in time, 467 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: right because she doesn't want to hold boul of Ours 468 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: for any longer than she has to. She only wants 469 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: to hold boul of Ours at the very moment that 470 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: she is going up to the checkout counter in the shop, 471 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: because her shopkeeper doesn't take bitcoin, he's only going to 472 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: accept it in boul of ours. And she could even 473 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: do this as she was standing in line to go 474 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: to the checkout counter. Actually, all of this would take 475 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: a matter of five ten minutes, provided she could find 476 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 1: someone who who shared her her bank And so that 477 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: was a really kind of revolutionary thing for her, to 478 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 1: the point where she's not really complaining about you know, 479 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: the user experience issues or the pain of of having 480 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: to you know, deal with a bitcoin private key or 481 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: whatever it is, because to her that ability to cash 482 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 1: out just in time is so critical. So that's that's 483 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: one example of how people are using it. Do we 484 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 1: know much about the other person on the other side 485 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: of that trade? Like who is the person that would 486 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: share the same bank as the woman in your example, 487 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: and who would have you know, bolivars at hand and 488 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: want to trade them into bitcoin and then what would 489 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: they do with the bitcoin after that? So sometimes it's 490 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: another person like Anna, right. Sometimes it's somebody who is 491 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: just sort of naturally a natural real buyer, you might 492 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: call them of bitcoins, So someone who may be exchanged 493 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: too much into bolivars and is now trying to trade back. 494 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: But in many cases it's dedicated traders. And so these 495 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: might be people in Venezuela who have bank accounts. Often 496 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: you have these money traders in Venezuela who have bank 497 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: accounts across seven or ten different banks, and they do 498 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: this intentionally so that they can have liquidity across all 499 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: of these different pools, right, and they're just clipping basically 500 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: bid offer as as any trader would on these trades 501 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: that they're doing, and it's it's fairly liquid, but there's 502 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: still a decent spread obviously to capture in there. If 503 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: if you're doing this, sometimes it's folks who are based 504 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: in Miami or Columbia, etcetera, who have left Venezuela excuse me, 505 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: but who still have access to a Venezuelan bank account, 506 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: and so they would be doing exactly the same thing 507 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: as a local trader would, but they would just be 508 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: doing it sort of remotely. Um, and so this this 509 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: is quite common. So let's talk a little bit about 510 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: Facebook Libra, but also just generally, whether it's people who 511 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: are believers in bitcoin or some other currency, or a 512 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: company launching its own currency like Facebook. This whole idea 513 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: of we want to uh deliver financial services stable currencies 514 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: to the two billion people or whatever it is that 515 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: don't have access to them. What are they up against? Like, 516 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: what are the sort of the big things they're going 517 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: to need to do to actually make traction and not 518 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: have it just be taught that regulators and the media 519 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: will like. Yeah, So the first thing I'll say is 520 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: that to talk about the unbanked or the underbanked. That 521 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: is such a broad category that you've got to you've 522 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: got to just be more specific. You've got a narrow down, 523 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: You've got a narrowed down by geography. You know, often 524 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: what we've seen is that what works in one place 525 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: does not work in another. If you look at something 526 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: like m pesa, which is obviously taken off in Kenya 527 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: and in other areas of Africa, that does not translate 528 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: at all to a Latin American context. You try and 529 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: ask people about, oh, what do you think about using 530 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: cell phone minutes is money in Latin American and they 531 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: look at you like you're crazy. It doesn't. It doesn't translate. 532 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: So you have to narrow it down by geography. But 533 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: you also just have to narrow it down by what 534 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: do you mean? Is this about access? Is this about 535 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: ending people's financial access, whether that's to bank accounts, whether 536 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: that's to other forms of money outside of their own 537 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: sort of sovereign currency, whether that's about access to other 538 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: financial instruments, investment instruments, etcetera. Or whether that's just about 539 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: as you said at the beginning of the episode, Joe poverty, right, 540 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: and that's that's a very different problem altogether, uh than 541 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: just having, you know, having a bank account. And so 542 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: that's kind of my first gripe with any time anyone 543 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: sort of waves their hands and says, oh, yeah, we're gonna, 544 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: uh democratize the financial system, or we're gonna bank the unbanked, 545 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: and it's just it's too broad. And now I can 546 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: speak to Venezuela with some degree of confidence, in Argentina 547 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: with some degree of confidence, and other areas with a 548 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: much lower degree of confidence. But but that's the first 549 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: thing that I would say now that that I realized 550 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: is kind of a lame cop out answer of like 551 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: it depends, and so I'll give you something a little 552 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: bit more were concrete to bite on here, which is 553 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: the next thing I would think about in the context 554 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: of whether it's Bitcoin, whether it's Facebook's libra coin, whatever 555 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: it is. If you're talking about a different type of 556 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: financial instrument, if you're talking about a different asset, the 557 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: first thing you have to think about is cash in 558 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: and cash out, right, And so I just ran through 559 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: that whole kind of convoluted example of there's this service, 560 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,719 Speaker 1: this Craigslist system that exists called local Bitcoins that provides 561 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: an scrow service and provides basically a bulletin board of 562 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: it's and offers and blah blah blah. Now that is 563 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: that is basically the one of the only cash in 564 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: cash out systems that exists for bitcoin in Venezuela. And 565 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: the existence of that service is why bitcoin gets used 566 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: at all, gets talked about at all in Venezuela. Now 567 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: why local bitcoins as opposed to coin based or as 568 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: opposed to ally pay or we chat. That has to 569 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: do with actually many ways, the regulatory arbitrage question again, right, 570 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: because coin base and many of these other services struggle 571 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: to do business in places like Venezuela. They still do, 572 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: I believe, but to a very limited extent, because it's dicey, right, 573 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: Like I get it. Even even just doing the research 574 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: with the Open Money Initiative, And I was just doing research, right, 575 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: I wasn't operating as a money transmission anything. But we 576 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: had to go through layers and layers and layers of 577 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: lawyers just to make sure that you know, we're doing 578 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: we're doing business. We're doing work in in a sanction 579 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: it's not a it's not an officially sanctioned country, but 580 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: you know, a huge spot of the population Venezuela is 581 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: sanctioned by the United States government. That's really hairy. That 582 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: gets really dicey. And so you need these services, whether 583 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: they're local, whether they're global in nature, whatever, it is 584 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: uh to service cash in cash out ramps in and 585 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: out of your system, and you need to be comfortable 586 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: doing that in countries where frankly it is pretty uncomfortable. Right. 587 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: So on that note, it feels like the places where 588 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: potentially that there could be a good use case for, um, 589 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,879 Speaker 1: you know, something like Facebook Libra would be places where 590 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: there is ethics instability, where people are seeking alternatives. But 591 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: by that very sort of nature of the system, I 592 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: guess there's a big question about whether or not Facebook 593 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,439 Speaker 1: would actually be welcomed there, and whether or not all 594 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: the sort of bells and whistles, the cash in cash 595 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: out systems that would go along with it would be 596 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 1: able to attach themselves to Facebook. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, 597 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: that's right, And you know, you start to get into 598 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: these really hairy situations in which I have I have 599 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: a friend, just as an example, who is Venezuelan. He 600 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: left Venezuela pretty recently, but while he was there he 601 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: had some money in coin base, and coin Base at 602 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: one point actually froze those funds effectively. Because I don't 603 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 1: know all of the details of it, but it seemed 604 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: like coin Base was suddenly uncomfortable with doing business with 605 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: him because they maybe didn't have all of the assurances 606 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: that they needed that he wasn't doing something nefarious with 607 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: them blah blah blah, which he wasn't, but just because 608 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: he is in Venezuela, where again a huge portion of 609 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: the population is is sanctioned, and so exactly, you know, 610 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: you start to think about other cases like this. It's like, Okay, 611 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: where where would this all be the most useful? Probably 612 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:42,439 Speaker 1: actually in places like Venezuela, Cuba, Ran, Somalia, etcetera, where 613 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: there is all of this instability, where it is a 614 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: very closed financial system. But that suddenly is, yeah, the 615 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: hairriest of places to do business with this, So I 616 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: gotta wrap up soon. But one more question I have, 617 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: and I think this sort of gets that really Venezuela 618 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: side one of the big ships about Facebook itself, and 619 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 1: it gets to your sort of initial introduction into the 620 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: crypto world, and the big opportunity for crypto is frankly 621 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,359 Speaker 1: kind of regulatory arbitrage, the stuff that people, whether it's 622 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: banks or governments, don't really want you to do. Facebook 623 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: is going to be is already one of the most 624 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: scrutinized entities in the world. In addition to that, because 625 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: it's going to be a FIAT backed coin in which 626 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: money is held representing the Libra, It's going to be 627 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: held in regulated financial institutions, which so they're gonna have 628 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: to comply with all those financial rings that even like 629 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: cryptocurrency brokers or whatever don't really have to think about 630 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:43,280 Speaker 1: as much. So fundamentally, in your view, can an entity 631 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: that's that regulated, that that's that beholden to all kinds 632 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: of rules actually deliver on any kind of promise in 633 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: your view of what cryptocurrencies can be used for. I'm 634 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: I'm a bit skeptical, to be honest. Um, Look, I 635 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,399 Speaker 1: think that they're scope for it to be an impactful 636 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: sort of financial tool or product, but whether it can 637 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: deliver on anything that sort of Bitcoin or other more 638 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: conventional cryptocurrencies have promised and in many ways actually delivered 639 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,879 Speaker 1: on in terms of what the actual utility is, I'm skeptical, right, 640 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: And and the reason for that is exactly what you 641 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: just said that Facebook as a platform, and any platform, 642 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: regardless of what other entities it brings around the table, 643 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: regardless of it if it's in consortium model, whatever it is, 644 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: that consortium, that platform, it has the ability to d 645 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: platform you um, and this has been a huge issue 646 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: that's gotten a lot of coverage over last year in 647 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: terms of content and content moderation. Well, now suddenly we're 648 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: talking about a world in which it's also financial moderation. 649 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: And you know, we would be we would be lying 650 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: right if we said that that's not the world that 651 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: we already live in. It is, and it's much more 652 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: so in a place like Venezuela, where it is a 653 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: closed economy, where there are all of these rules and regulations, 654 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: many of which feel like they don't make a lot 655 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: of sense. You know, it's not something that I think 656 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: about here in America. I'm not one of these sort 657 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: of tinfoil hats who stays up at night worrying about 658 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: what the FETE is is. Well, I do worry about 659 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: what the FETE is doing, but I don't worry about, 660 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: you know, what the FET or treasury is going to 661 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: do in terms of d platforming. My ability to use 662 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: the US dollar. But what I do want to say 663 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: is that as we move to an increasingly cashless society, 664 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: this becomes more and more of an issue, even for 665 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: those of us in places like the United States where 666 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,800 Speaker 1: we feel like there is good rule of law, because 667 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: I've even had these issues myself of dealing with UH 668 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 1: cryptocurrency accounts with my banks. Banks don't tend to like that. 669 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: Even if you're dealing with a regulated cryptocurrency exchange, they 670 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 1: don't tend to like that. And so I've had banks 671 00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,919 Speaker 1: actually call me up and ask all kinds of question 672 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,720 Speaker 1: ens um and even not freeze my accounts, but freeze 673 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 1: counterparties accounts from whom I'm maybe receiving income or whatever 674 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: it is. It can get really messy really quickly as 675 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: soon as you move to this completely cashless society where 676 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: suddenly you do have banks, corporates, entity is maybe now 677 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: even Facebook controlling who can do what with your money. 678 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: And that's something that with cash, there's still there's still 679 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: that out right, Like I can still stuffed dollar bills 680 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: under my mattress and go and use them for whatever 681 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: I want to use. But so that's actually the role 682 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: that I see bitcoin filling in the future and cryptocurrencies 683 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: like it is that ability to have sort of truly 684 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: censorship resistant money, and that's a much more niche use 685 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: case than a lot of people will will say, especially 686 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: if they have if they own a lot of bitcoin, 687 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: or if they work in cryptocurrency. It is still niche, 688 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: but I think it's important nonetheless, Joe Carlson of the 689 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: Open Money Initiative, fascinating conversation. Really looking forward to following 690 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: your work as you continue to research these areas more 691 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: in a thank you for coming on out lots. Thank 692 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:27,359 Speaker 1: you so much so, Joe. I really enjoyed that conversation. 693 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: I enjoy talking to anyone who comes on and says 694 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: that crypto is basically regulatory arbitrage. Yeah, I agree with that. 695 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: I completely agree with that, and I actually wish more 696 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: people in crypto would be upfront about that. And because 697 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. I think, 698 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,319 Speaker 1: as Jill pointed out in the beginning, there obviously uh 699 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: uses that most people probably wouldn't approve of. There are 700 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: in many cases good uses, especially when the laws or 701 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: the way banks treat people is unfair. But I do 702 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 1: think that is kind of the essential all use and 703 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: people have a really hard time because, especially if they're 704 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: trying to bring it to the institutions or whatever, they 705 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: want to wave their hands and try and say it's 706 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: about something else. But I think it at its core 707 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: that is the one thing where they just sort of 708 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 1: logically makes sense, right, And I think if you narrow 709 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: it onto that one sort of use case scenario, regulatory arbitrage, 710 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: it helps you a attach some value to it. But 711 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 1: we also think about the problems of adoption, and of 712 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,880 Speaker 1: course we touched on some of those, and that is 713 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: whether or not governments are going to allow it, and 714 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 1: whether or not if governments don't allow it, uh, the 715 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: technology itself can sort of sustain it outside of the 716 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: regulated system, and we still see that debate going on. Absolutely, 717 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: and just generally. I really appreciated being able to talk 718 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 1: to someone who, again it was not just a theoretical conversation, 719 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: is not just someone on Twitter. It's not just someone 720 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 1: coming on a podcast past and pontificating, but actually talking 721 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 1: to people and just hearing about the other things that 722 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, even crypto aside. It's fascinating reading and learning 723 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: about how people in Venezuela or living in an economy 724 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: that's extremely in turmoil, how they get by and how 725 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:22,360 Speaker 1: they use combinations of cash and social media chat rooms 726 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: to sort of just get by and do commerce is 727 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 1: a really fascinating topic, even if it had nothing to 728 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 1: do with big point. I totally agree. And one last 729 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,360 Speaker 1: thing that I would say, you know, you built this 730 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 1: up quite a lot in your intro where you said 731 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: this was sort of a historic moment, and I do think, 732 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: I will admit, I do think you're right in the 733 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: sense that what we're probably going to see is a 734 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: big clash between a private company like Facebook trying to 735 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 1: shape regulation in its favor to get libra off the 736 00:42:54,280 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: ground against politicians and existing regulatory structures. So that's going 737 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 1: to be really interesting, and you sort of wonder which 738 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:04,759 Speaker 1: one of those is going to win out. You know, 739 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: I was going to make another follow up point, but 740 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: I just actually want the last point to be you 741 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: agreeing with me that this is a big deal, so 742 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 1: we could just wrap it up there. All right. This 743 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,359 Speaker 1: has been another episode of the Odd Thoughts podcast. I'm 744 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway. 745 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,719 Speaker 1: I'm Joe. Why isn't thal You could follow me on 746 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: Twitter at the Stalwart, and you should follow our guests 747 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:33,319 Speaker 1: on Twitter Jill Carlson. She's at Underscore Jill Ruth, and 748 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,840 Speaker 1: be sure to follow our producer on Twitter, Laura Carlson. 749 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 1: She's at Laura M. Carlson. Follow the Bloomberg head of podcast, 750 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,719 Speaker 1: Francesca Levy at Francesca Today, and check out the new 751 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: home of Bloomberg podcast on Twitter at podcasts. Thanks for listening. 752 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: The year e