1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holmes, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 2: works some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes, and. 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: I weigh in, using modern forensic techniques to bring new 8 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 2: insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. 13 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 3: Hey, Paul, Hey Kate, how are you? 14 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: I'm doing well? How about you? 15 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 3: I am. 16 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 2: I'm hanging in there. 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: So I have a drink for you that I want 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: you to consider, because you know what, do I usually 19 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: drink cider? No, I don't drink cider. Do not drink cider. 20 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: I'm not unprofessional in that way. I drink hot tea. Right. 21 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: We everybody knows that. Nobody believes you, Paul. 22 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 2: Oh you're oh you're talking about dear well we're recording 23 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: this show, yes, yeah, but when I'll just let the 24 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: listeners know when Kate is not in her professor mode, 25 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: there a little edgy side to Kate. 26 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, Edgi. So this is what I usually drink, 27 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: a decaffeinated hot tea. But this is what I'm drinking. 28 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: Hold on, it's not cova, it's cold brew. Have you 29 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 1: tried cold brew? 30 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 3: Yeah? 31 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 2: In fact, that's when I when I was really trying 32 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 2: to get off of the energy drink addiction. 33 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: I didn't know you had that addiction. 34 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: Oh jeez, it's it's bad. And I'm doing better on 35 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 2: that front. But the I can't do the hot coffee. 36 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 2: I just don't like hot liquids. Yeah, And so I 37 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: did cold brew and I can drink the cold brew black. 38 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 2: I don't put anything in it. I don't want the 39 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: sugar and all that. But yeah, no, cold brew works 40 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 2: good for me. 41 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: I like colbrew. The acidity of coffee sometimes gets to me, 42 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: and colbrew tastes really good. So we just I just 43 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: busted it out because it feels so overwhelmingly warm here 44 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: that I needed some good col brew. So we're gonna 45 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: see I might have to take a break in the 46 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: middle of this episode and just go running back to 47 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: my good old standard hot Tea. Well, listen, Paul, I 48 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: was thinking about you when I picked this next case, 49 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: because it is a case that I think you're really 50 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: going to be interested in. Boy, there's a lot of forensics. 51 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: I've got yellow all over the place, yellow as far 52 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: as the eye can see on my prep document, which 53 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: equates to Paul has to comment on this. The story, 54 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: the actual murder story ends like halfway through this episode, 55 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: and then everything unravels after that. So I can't wait 56 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 1: to present this to you. It's in Canada in nineteen 57 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: fifty nine. 58 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, let's hear it. 59 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: Okay, let's set the scene. This case is more than 60 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: sixty years old. So this is, Paul, one of our 61 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: more recent cases. 62 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, more than sixty years old. My god, Kate, I 63 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 2: mean saying, hey, this case happened three hundred years ago. 64 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: We're in the fifties where people typed out things and 65 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: there were telephones and smale mail, and people are not 66 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: carrying information on horseback and buggies. So we're in a 67 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: good time period with a lot of information. And I 68 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: love going back and forth between the seventeen hundreds, and 69 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: of course we've dipped our tone in the sixteen hundreds 70 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: and we're going to go, you know, b C here 71 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: pretty soon someday. So I'm always interested in these cases 72 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: that are more recent, and this is a good one. 73 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: So this is the disappearance of a young girl, and 74 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: that part of it is difficult. I've talked to listeners 75 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: about this because we picked these cases. I'm the one. 76 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: I'm thoughtful about it. I really think, what is Paul 77 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: going to be interested in? What am I interested in researching? 78 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: What information is available to us. Are there cases that 79 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: are heavy and forensics, Some are heavy in you know, 80 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: criminal profiling or victimology. So the ones involving kids are 81 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: everybody knows. I've got two kids. I've got two thirteen 82 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: year olds. Those are difficult for me. But if I'm 83 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: picking them, that's for a reason. And you know, we 84 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: are cognizant that these are sometimes hard to hear. But 85 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: I think this is a very important case and we'll 86 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: see what you think of it. Okay, let's sort of 87 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: talk about where we are. It's summertime, June ninth of 88 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine, and it's in Clinton, Ontario, Canada. There 89 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: are a group of school children in the school yard 90 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: and they're all hanging out and a lot of them 91 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: are the children of officers at the Royal Canadian Air 92 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: Force Base which is nearby. And these are you know, kids, 93 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: middle class who are all hanging out in this area 94 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: feels rule. And I'll show you photos a little bit. 95 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: And the main person in this story, there are two 96 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: of them. The center point is twelve year old Lynn Harper. 97 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: Lynn is playing with all of her friends and she 98 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: decides she needs to go home, and this is in 99 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: the early evening on June ninth. She has another friend 100 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: there along with the other schoolmates. And this other friend 101 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: is a fourteen year old boy named Stephen Truscott, and 102 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: Steven says, I'm going home to hop on my bike. 103 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever did this. I rode 104 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: on handlebars. I tell my kids don't ever do that ever, 105 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: but they do it anyway. So this is what happens. 106 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: He said, hop on. She gets on his handlebars and 107 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: they ride off and all of the kids say they 108 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: see him ride off, you know, down a road. She 109 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: says to him, you know, I want to go home, 110 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: but I'm going to take my time because there's a 111 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: nearby horse pasture. I want to see the ponies there, 112 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: and he says, well, why don't you go home straight home? 113 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: And she said, well, I got into a fight with 114 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: my parents and I'd really rather go and hang out 115 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: with the ponies to cheer me up, and then I 116 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 1: can head off from there. So he is going to 117 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: drop her off, not in front of her house. He's 118 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: going to drop her off somewhere and then he's going 119 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: to continue on onto his own house. It is not 120 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: particularly dark yet, it doesn't sound like the location of 121 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: where Lynn wants to go isn't very far from Steven's place. 122 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: And so he's got her on the handlebars. He's going 123 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 1: down a road called County Road, literally called County Road. 124 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: They cross a bridge that runs over a river and 125 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: there are children swimming and playing and see them cross 126 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: this bridge about seven point thirty. Steven says he dropped 127 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: off Lynn at the intersection of County Road and Highway eight, 128 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: which runs east west. So you know, there's this intersection. 129 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: This is where the horses are, and she, you know, 130 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: says I'm going to go see the ponies and then 131 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to go home, and he says goodbye, he goes. 132 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: He says he drops her off at seven thirty. He 133 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: gets home about eight o'clock and Lynn never comes home. 134 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: So you have a twelve year old boy who is 135 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: the last person to see this girl alive except for 136 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 1: the person who killed her, and we have to find 137 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: out is he the one who did it? What do 138 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: you think so far? 139 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: You know, when I start assessing a case and I 140 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 2: need to learn about the geography, you know, and we're 141 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: talking about who've done a case, especially in a case 142 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: where there's a missing person at least it starts out 143 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 2: as a missing person. It's assessing that abduction location and 144 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: where is that relative to the population base, as well 145 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: as is there a transient aspect to whoever's going to 146 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 2: be flowing through. If this is a log let's say 147 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: a isolated county road, there's limited traffic on something like that, 148 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: versus a log a freeway where possibly you have a 149 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 2: lot of transient population that's flowing through, and that really 150 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: opens up a suspect pool. So that's one of the 151 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 2: things that I'm just doing right now is just pulled 152 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: up Clinton and I'm seeing that it's pretty close to 153 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: Lake Huron, but it's not on the lake. It appears 154 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 2: that it's a few miles away from that type of environment. 155 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 2: And this Highway eight that you mentioned appears to be 156 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 2: a prime highway somewhat northwest to southeast that is connecting 157 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 2: other small towns. So most certainly there's going to be 158 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,599 Speaker 2: some traffic and some transient aspect to the types of 159 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 2: people who may be driving along this particular highway. 160 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: Right, this is the county road. This is the road 161 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: that they rode down, you know, crossed over this bridge 162 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: and then encountered Highway eight and he dropped her off, 163 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: he says, at that intersection. Paved road, but rural still. Obviously, 164 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: I don't see any houses anywhere on this road so far. 165 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 2: Now, you know what I'm looking at is I have 166 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 2: a road that, in fact it's not It doesn't even 167 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 2: have a center dividing stripe. So this appears to be 168 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: a fairly narrow rural road. I see trees that have 169 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 2: been planted many, many years ago, that are planted in 170 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 2: such a way to be a wind break, and it 171 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 2: appears that there's maybe agricultural aspects going on in this 172 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: particular area. There are utility poles, you know, that are 173 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 2: feeding electricity along this road, so there's probably residential areas, 174 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 2: you know, tucked back off of the road. But at 175 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: this particular location, I see no buildings whatsoever. Yeah, this 176 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 2: appears to just be a road with farmland or whether 177 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 2: there's cattle grazing or something going on, who knows. But 178 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 2: it does appear to be a fairly remote road, and 179 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: the road itself does not appear to be one that 180 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: would have much traffic at all. 181 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. So Lynn has disappeared about eleven twenty. 182 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: That night, her father reports her missing. I'm sure he 183 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: is frantic because she's supposed to be home by o'clock 184 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: or nine o'clock or whenever, and he did not know 185 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: she was going to go visit the ponies. According to Stephen, 186 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: she was mad at her parents, so she was going 187 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: to make them wait on her a little bit. We 188 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 1: don't know if that's true. At eleven twenty, the father 189 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: reports are missing, so the police head to the Trustcott house. 190 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: Stephen tells the investigators that after he dropped her off 191 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: at that intersection, he looked back and he saw her 192 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: get into a car. He said it was a gray 193 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine Chevy. He said that the specific model 194 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: of the Chevrolet had a very distinctive look and it 195 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: stood out to him, and he said there was actually 196 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: something on the backside, something yellow. It could have been 197 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: a yellow license plate or a bumper sticker. And he said, 198 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: once Lynn got inside the car, the car headed east 199 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: and that's all he knew. So the police have this 200 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: information and they leave because she is still missing. We 201 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: have no idea what happened to her. We don't know 202 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,719 Speaker 1: if she voluntarily got into this car. We don't know 203 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: if the parents are lying. We have no idea what's happening. 204 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: Two days later, they find her body. A search party 205 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: had been looking for her, and they discover her body. 206 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: It's in a wooded area called Lawson's Brush, which is 207 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: off that county road that Stephen and Lynn had taken. 208 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: You have three choices here. One, I can show you 209 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: the route the map, so you can see how far 210 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: if Stephen did this, The school is from the brush 211 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: from where he says he dropped her off. I can 212 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: show you where the body was and actually a photo 213 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: of the body at the scene. Or we can talk 214 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 1: about what happened to her and the results of the autopsy. 215 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 3: Well, let's start with the map. 216 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: Okay, this is the map. This is pretty simple. There's 217 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: not a lot going on in this map. 218 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So this map is showing the path that Steve 219 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 2: and Lynn took from the school to the location across 220 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 2: the bridge to the location by the highway where he 221 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: dropped Lynn off. The school is down on the southern 222 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 2: part of the map, the way it's oriented, and a 223 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 2: red line shows the route along the county road going northwards. 224 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 2: It's straight route up to the highway where Stephen is 225 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 2: saying he dropped Lynn off. However, there is a spot 226 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: that's about one third the way up this route that 227 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 2: is labeled as bush so it is, you know, shortly 228 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 2: after Stephen Lynn left the school area, they would be 229 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: riding along the county road with this bush area off 230 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: to their right or to the east. And then a 231 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 2: short distance after this bush area is where the bridge 232 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 2: is located where you had the children playing. Yep. And 233 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: I believe, based on what you said, is that those 234 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 2: children were witnesses and they saw Steve and Lynn cross 235 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 2: that bridge. 236 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: Yep. 237 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: Okay, So that's an important part of the sequence of 238 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 2: what we're going to talk about. So now I've got 239 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 2: at least the you know, when we start evaluating, okay, 240 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 2: is this fourteen year old kid on his bicycle, you know, 241 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 2: does he offer the right to Lynn? And then along 242 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 2: the way they pass by this bushy area, which of 243 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: course is going to probably hide anybody driving along the 244 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 2: road and any type of view once you get back 245 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 2: into this bushy area. So he's going past the area 246 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: where Lynn's body is found two days later. 247 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: Yep. 248 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 2: Now, with the witness statements, you have Stephen taking Lynn 249 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 2: at least across that bridge, but in order to get 250 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 2: back to this bushy area, they would have to cross 251 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: back over the bridge. Do we have witnesses saying they 252 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: saw them heading in the opposite direction. But when Stephen 253 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 2: drops Lynn off by the highway and then he says 254 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: there's a car that's facing She's getting into this Chevy 255 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: that's facing the opposite direction, which means it's facing towards 256 00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 2: back towards where the bushy area is. 257 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: HM. 258 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 2: Right now, Stephen's statements are consistent with what I would 259 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 2: think is the sequence that would have occurred. So I'm 260 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: kind of curious if the children playing in the creek 261 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 2: by the bridge if they saw this Chevy drive over 262 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: the bridge. 263 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: So, no, the kids don't report seeing a Chevy crossing 264 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: over the bridge. It's interesting because you know, he says, 265 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: and tell me if you think this is wrong. So 266 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: the county road is going north south. It sounds like 267 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: he's saying they went north, they crossed the bridge, and 268 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: then the car was going east, which on our little 269 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: map would have been going right. So I wonder if 270 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: this is what happened. Somebody gets her in the car 271 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: and he drives in backtracks and go back over the bridge. 272 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: But I don't know. There might be other entry points. 273 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: There could be another bridge, you know, further down, and 274 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: if she does get in a car, the person then 275 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: goes east and then goes south and crosses over the 276 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: bridge and accesses this bush. Let me show you where 277 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: she was found and then we ca can talk about 278 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: injuries because you can imagine, I mean, she's dead, there's trauma. Yeah, 279 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: let's talk about where she was found in if somebody 280 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: has to know this area to know how to access it. Okay, 281 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: let's start with the body. This is a photo of 282 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: her body that was included in a documentary that we'll 283 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: talk about later called The Fifth Estate. 284 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm taking a look at this girl's body. 285 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: She's laying on her back in a very brushy area 286 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: a lot of dense brush that is surrounding where her 287 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: body's located at she's laying face up. I can see 288 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: what appears to be possibly some injuries to her face, 289 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: like some bruises, and it appears that she is at 290 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: least nude from the waist down. Her legs are spread 291 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 2: right now. It appears that there's some sort of garment 292 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 2: that's laying to her right, further into the bushy area. 293 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 2: Her left arm is in the foreground and it's just 294 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 2: propped up against her upper body. What I can't determine 295 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: right now is if she has any garments on in 296 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: her upper body. There appears to possibly be something up 297 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 2: around her neck, but I can't make that out clearly 298 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 2: in this photo. 299 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: Well, now I can give you some more details because 300 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: you can see it a lot in this photo. So 301 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: she was found partially nude, you're right, clothes were scattered 302 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: all over the place. She was strangled to death with 303 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: her own shirt, which is I think the garment you 304 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: see to the right. Yeah, it was tied around her neck. 305 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: And there were scratches on her body, including a very 306 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: long deep cut. They think that she was dragged over 307 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: some barbed wire. I don't know if dead or alive, 308 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: but there are also very clear signs of a sexual assault. 309 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: So that's what happened to this twelve year old girl. 310 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 2: You know, this is a hate to use the term prototypical. However, 311 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: when we have a she motivated homicide, this is often 312 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 2: when the victim is found quickly. This is often what 313 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 2: this type of scene looks like. There's a lot of 314 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 2: potential physical evidence at this location and on and in 315 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 2: her body that today we can use to solve the case. 316 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 2: In my experience, this is not the type of crime 317 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 2: that a fourteen year old boy commits. 318 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: Give me details about that why there. 319 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 2: Are some examples of young boys, you know, committing sexual assault. 320 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 2: In this particular situation, when I started evaluating what was 321 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 2: done to her, the use of her own garments as 322 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 2: a ligature is significant. That often is something that is 323 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 2: not thought of by a youthful person. You'll see manual strangulation, 324 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 2: you'll see bludgeoning, you know, typical violence that young boys 325 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: will will do to each other. That's what they know 326 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: what to do. But to use garments like a shirt, 327 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: a shirt is not an apparent ligature. That is something 328 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: that somebody who is now thinking about how am I 329 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 2: going to ensure. 330 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 3: That this victim is dead? 331 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 2: Because if you're an offender and you kill for the 332 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 2: very first time, if you use your hands to strangle somebody, 333 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: and then at some point, let's say the person loses consciousness, 334 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: how do you know that they're actually dead? 335 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 3: You don't. 336 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 2: And so offenders often will tie a ligature, even if 337 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: they've manually strangled, they'll tie a ligature, so even if 338 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: they're unsure if the person's dead when they leave, and 339 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 2: then you have to remember, the offender's time clock is ticking. 340 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 2: They're out in this location. There's risk to them. Somebody 341 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 2: might stumble across, somebody might drive past them. They have 342 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 2: to get in, they have to get out. They don't 343 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 2: have all day to commit this crime. So now, in 344 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 2: this rush they commit the sexual ass they strangle. Is 345 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 2: the victim dead or not. She's not breathing or maybe 346 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: she is breathing. 347 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 3: I don't know. 348 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 2: Now it's the tying of the ligature. So the offender 349 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 2: has confidence that the victim will die, and they don't 350 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: have a witness that they've left alive. A fourteen year 351 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 2: old boy thinking about that, coupled with the use of 352 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 2: a shirt. That tells me that I'm dealing with likely 353 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 2: dealing with a more mature offender. But I can't say 354 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 2: it with certainty. But as I assess this scene, that's 355 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 2: what I am. 356 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 3: Looking at, That's what I'm drawing upon right now. 357 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: Being able to overpower her, dragging her over barbed wire. Yeah, 358 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: it does seem like to me. That's immediately what I 359 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: thought was, this was not something that a fourteen year 360 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: old boy would do. 361 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 2: But this is also now assessing Steve, and I know 362 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 2: nothing about you know, Steven's physical attributes. 363 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 3: There are fourteen year. 364 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 2: Old boys that are not very robust, not very strong, 365 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 2: and then there are fourteen year old boy that have 366 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 2: the size and strength of an average adult male, if 367 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: not above average adult male. 368 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 3: It just depends. 369 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: Well, let me show you, Steven. I don't know if 370 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: you can get a whole lot out of this. This 371 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: does not look like a robust adult male build. To me, 372 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: he doesn't look particularly tall. I don't know, what do 373 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: you think? He looks like a fourteen year old kid. 374 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 2: Stephen looks like a very athletically built fourteen year old boy. 375 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 2: I think Stephen has you know, some physical capabilities. Okay, 376 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 2: probably up and beyond the average fourteen year old boy. 377 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 2: Based on what I'm looking at, he has musculature that 378 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 2: I can see in the arms. He's actually got some 379 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: shoulders to him. I wouldn't be surprised if he is 380 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 2: an athlete in some capacity, plays sports for his school 381 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: or you know, on the city leagues, et cetera. 382 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: So I told you cause of death, and now the 383 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: police are trying to figure out what happened. We've got 384 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: all these witnesses saying that the last person that they 385 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: saw her with was Stephen, who's fourteen. There's a clear 386 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: signce of sexual assault. They did take what now we 387 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,239 Speaker 1: would know would be DNA evidence. The corner is an 388 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: important person in this story. His name is John Peniston. 389 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: And John Peniston is looking at Lynn and trying to 390 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: figure out what happened. And he says that he is 391 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: trying to put together a timeline because Stephen says, listen, 392 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: you know I left her at seven point thirty. I 393 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: dropped her off and then I went home and I 394 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: was home by eight o'clock. So the police are saying 395 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: who else would have done this? They do not believe 396 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: that she was picked up by a random car. They 397 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: do not believe that this was a stranger abduction and 398 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 1: rape and murder. They think that this fourteen year old 399 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: was capable of doing this, and so they start to 400 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: put together a case. This is a case. It's referred 401 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 1: to a lot as a miscarriage of justice case, because 402 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: you've already stated I don't think a fourteen year old 403 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: could do this, and I think that the way that 404 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: the case unfolds is so interesting, with the different techniques, 405 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: and now you get to talk about a couple of 406 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: things that you and I have never talked about. I 407 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: don't think before. Doctor Peniston is trying to pin down 408 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: a time of death because it's important. His parents say 409 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: he was home by eight. The kids say that they 410 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: left I think about six forty five, seven o'clock. So 411 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: doctor Peniston's job is to try to determine when she died. 412 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: So he looks at her stomach contents, and we haven't 413 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: talked about stomach contents yet. He says that in this 414 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: autopsy has removed about a pint of food from her 415 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: stomach that has not yet been digested. Her parents say 416 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 1: she finished a meal around five forty five PM, and 417 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: then she went to go play and hang out. With 418 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: her friends. Doctor Peniston is saying to the police, listen, 419 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: if you want a time of death, according to the 420 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: food that I have taken out of her stomach that 421 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: was not digested, I will tell you that because of 422 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: my knowledge of the human digestive system, I know so 423 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: that she died likely between seven point fifteen pm at 424 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: seven forty five pm, which is of course coincidentally when 425 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: Stephen was with her and she's riding on his bike. 426 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,959 Speaker 1: What do we know about stomach contents and its reliability 427 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: in determining time of death. 428 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 2: There's no way that pathologists could form that opinion. You know, 429 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 2: of course, stomach contents are something that are important in 430 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 2: terms of okay, when did the victim last eat, what 431 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 2: types of food did the victim eat? And is that 432 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 2: food still present within the stomach, and you know, to 433 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,239 Speaker 2: a greater or lesser extent, you know, what is the 434 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 2: state of the digestion of that food. Those are all 435 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 2: observations that a pathologist will make and of course will 436 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 2: collect the stomach contents. However, there's so many variables. Imagine Lynn, 437 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 2: she eats, and now she's out there and she's she's exercising. 438 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 2: You know, this is going to impact the rate of digestion. 439 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 2: It's just something where you can't definitively narrow down the 440 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 2: time of death window to just within from seven fifteen 441 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 2: to seven forty five. No way, that's a problem. By 442 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 2: my estimation, this. 443 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: Is what the prosecutor is really hinging the case on, 444 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: is the time of death. Who else would have done it? 445 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 1: I don't believe his story about her getting into a 446 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: stranger's car. Stephen is arrested, you know, the prosecutor argues 447 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: that he should not be tried in juvenile court because 448 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: the juvenile courts in this part of Canada have never 449 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: dealt with a gruesome case. They are unprepared, and so 450 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: the magistrate ultimately decides that Stephen is going to be 451 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: tried as an adult, a fourteen year old, and the 452 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: stomach contents take center stage. This just sounds terrible to me. 453 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 2: You know, fundamentally, Stephen is the last one seen with 454 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 2: Lynn when she's alive. Hm, you now have an expert 455 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 2: that is basically saying that, well, she was killed between 456 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 2: seven fifteen and seven forty five, which is exactly when 457 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: Stephen was saying he was with Lynn. That right now 458 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 2: is the extent of their case, and I've already explained 459 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 2: what the pathologist is saying about the stomach contents is 460 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 2: just completely overreaching. 461 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: Huh Okay. So the Crown, who is obviously the Crown 462 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: prosecutor representing Canada, as saying, why would any person pick 463 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: her up kill her in this area that's so close 464 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: to her home? That seems like a big risk. If 465 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: he's going to get her in the car, why not 466 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: drive to a different part of Canada and do this? 467 00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: So they're doing criminal profiling and really reaching. Does that 468 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: sound dumb? I mean they're saying only a local kid 469 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: would know to take her back to this brush area 470 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: that happens to be close to her house and happens 471 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 1: to be close to the school. 472 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: I would need to kind of assess this location a 473 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 2: little bit better. Is this brushy area something that is 474 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 2: within view from where Lynn was picked up at? And 475 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 2: then at that point, the reality is is that anybody 476 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 2: driving by who decides that they want to pick up 477 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,479 Speaker 2: Lynn could readily see, oh, there's a location where I 478 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 2: can take this girl and commit violent acts against her 479 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 2: and not be seen. 480 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: Yep. This is a fifteen day long trial, which is 481 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: a lot in nineteen fifty nine fifty nine people took 482 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: the stand questioned by the prosecutor. Many of them were children, 483 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: whose testimonies, of course, were inconsistent and flimsy, made up 484 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: maybe by parents who just wanted an answer. Here. There 485 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: were seventy five pieces of evidence, including a partial shoe 486 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: print that quote unquote seemed to match a pair of 487 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: Stephen's shoes. And one of the weirder things that I 488 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: have heard is Stephen apparently had some sort of like 489 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: markings or lesions on his genitalia that prosecutors say were 490 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 1: lesions that were clearly caused by a sexual AsSalt a 491 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: violent sexual assault. 492 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 3: I'd have to see what they're talking. 493 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 2: Are they talking about some sort of like a brace 494 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 2: of injuries? Are they talking about some sort of sore 495 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 2: like it's an infected area. 496 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: This turns out to be later on a pre existing 497 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: skin condition. This is very convincing to the jury. There 498 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: is no heart evidence against Steven. There's no blood on 499 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: his clothes, there's no cuts, there's no scratches the shoes. 500 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: They found, all the pairs of shoes, including the one 501 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: that he was wearing, the pair that he was wearing, 502 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: no soil, no debris that might connect him to this brush, 503 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,959 Speaker 1: no eye witnesses placing him there. It sounds like wrong place, 504 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: wrong time, and he is ultimately convicted. There is a 505 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: guilty verdict and a death sentence, and he becomes the 506 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: youngest Canadian ever put on death row, the youngest in 507 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine. Based on this evidence, it's unreal stomach 508 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: contents saying he was with her. Nobody else was with her. 509 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 1: He was with her when this happened. 510 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 2: By my assessment, with what you have described, there isn't 511 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 2: even probable cause for a rest. You know, he's a 512 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 2: suspect just because of temporal aspects of being with Lynn. 513 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 2: But his statement, it sounds like they just absolutely dismissed 514 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 2: his statement outright and maybe even use that statement in 515 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 2: a way to cast further suspicion. You know, here you 516 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 2: got the boogeyman car. He's making an excuse as to 517 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 2: what happened to Lynn. But the fact that they were 518 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 2: able to get a conviction and a death sentence on 519 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 2: this flimsy evidence, stomach contents, that is absurd. 520 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and decades later he's sitting in prison, he's on 521 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: death rod. Decades later, there is a film made called 522 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: The Fifth Estate and it's a big film. It's a 523 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: big documentary, and in it there's a claim that the 524 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: police ignored other suspects. And here's the most interesting one. 525 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: I think the Royal Canadian Air Force had a sergeant 526 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: who was in the Clinton area. His name was Alexander Kalichuk. 527 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: He is described in this documentary The Fifth of State 528 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: as a heavy drinker with a history of sexual offenses. 529 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: He was fixated on young girls, and in fact, just 530 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: a few weeks before Lynne vanished, Alexander had been arrested 531 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: for trying to convince a ten year old girl to 532 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: climb into his car, but because there was not enough evidence, 533 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: the charges were dropped. Before you ask, I have no 534 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: idea if it was a Gray Chevy. We couldn't find 535 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: that information. But this is a guy who had a 536 00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: criminal history, nearly a decade's worth of sexual offenses. He 537 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: had apparently a huge bout of anxiety around the time 538 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: of Lynn's death, and when the Fifth Estate looked at 539 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: Alexander Kalichuk's psychiatric files, it sounds like there was a suggestion, 540 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: according to this film, that he had felt guilt after 541 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: Lynn's sexual assault and murder. He sold his car shortly 542 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: after her body was discovered and he died. Because this 543 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,959 Speaker 1: case goes for decades. He died in the mid nineteen 544 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: seventies due to complications caused by alcoholism, and the police 545 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: ignored all of this, and it was available, all of it, 546 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: and this guy sat in prison. 547 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: Just investigating a case like Lin's. Of course, there's always 548 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: the look at the known sex offenders in the area. 549 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 2: That's par for course. There's sometimes you run into, wow, 550 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 2: you know this, we just popped this guy for you know, 551 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 2: trying to abduct you know, like I'm thinking of as 552 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 2: that I was involved with a known registered sex offender, 553 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 2: tried to abduct a sex worker, and then we had 554 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 2: a sex worker killed a week later, And of course 555 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 2: you pay attention to that. But it turns out he's 556 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 2: not responsible, you know, so you do get some coincidental overlap. 557 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 2: I keep going back to the case against Steven, and 558 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 2: it's like there isn't one they needed to expand out. 559 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 2: You know, Steven may be in play just because of 560 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 2: the circumstances. So you know, and something like this, Klichick, 561 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 2: I mean you have to go knock on that guy's door. 562 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And I think you have tunnel vision from 563 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: the police number one, thinking that a random person would 564 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: pick up a girl like this in this area in 565 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: this time period. And then you have what I call 566 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: the being enamored by a scientist with supposed forensic tools. 567 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: I just did an interview about America Sherlock, and that 568 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: person asked me about, you know, did everybody believe Oscar 569 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: Heinrich in the nineteen twenties. A lot of people thought 570 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: this was bunk, the things that he was doing with 571 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: ballistics and bloodstained pattern analysis, But also people were enamored 572 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: by it when they shouldn't have been, and it's this 573 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: brand new thing. And I think that's what happened with 574 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: the stomach contents is you have this coroner saying definitively 575 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: she died here, this kid was with her during this 576 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: time period. He is guilty. So I want to jump 577 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: through this because there's a lot that happens over the 578 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: decades after Stephen is sitting in prison languishing over the 579 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: stupidest evidence ever. There's this fifth Estate documentary that came 580 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: out in nineteen sixty six. There's a book called The 581 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: Trial of Stephen Truscott, and that comes out. It completely condemns. 582 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: Of course, the police investigation for its hastiness. He has 583 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: an appeal that's denied. But after in nineteen sixty nine, 584 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: he spent ten years behind bars. He was a model prisoner. 585 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: He is released on parole, so they took him off 586 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: of death row. Partially because of this case in the seventies, 587 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: Canada ended up getting rid of the death penalty. So 588 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: he gets out in nineteen sixty nine, he changes his 589 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: name and he settles down with a wife and he 590 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: has a family. In nineteen seventy four, Steven's behavior is 591 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: so impeccable that Canada's National Parole Board excuses him from 592 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: the rest of his parole so he can go wherever 593 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: he wants. But he wants his name cleared because he 594 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: had to change his name. And this is when the 595 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: documentary comes up. In the year two thousand and the 596 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: CBC Canadian Broadcasting Corporation releases the fifth Estate and he 597 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: talks for the first time. He says, I'm innocent, the 598 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: police railroaded me, and I want to clear my name. 599 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: And boy does this take decades and decades. So let 600 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: me tell you what unfolds, Okay, because there's a lot 601 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: that ends up happening. So eventually the Justice department in 602 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: Canada says, there's a miscarriage of justice. He shouldn't have 603 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: been convicted based on the evidence. And now all this 604 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: stuff starts to come out. I already told you about 605 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: the suspect that we should have looked at. But there 606 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: was a farmer who told the police that he had 607 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: seen a strange car in the area exactly where Lynn 608 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: went missing. And a dermatologist who said, this is not 609 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: from trauma. The stuff on his genitalia, he had a 610 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: pre existing skin condition, this is not from an assault. 611 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: We've got the original coroner who seemed now to be 612 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,359 Speaker 1: insecure about the time period based on the stomach contents. 613 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: He said, you know, I don't know, and he gave 614 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: several different times where he said, maybe I'm wrong about this. 615 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure. So they bring a gastro enterrologist 616 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: named Nicholas Dumont and he tells the court and tell 617 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: me if this makes sense to you. He tells the 618 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: court in two thousand and four, Listen, it's not strange 619 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: that Lynn had a pint of food in her stomach, 620 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: because a stomach almost never empties entirely within two hours 621 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: of a meal. He says that you can have seventy 622 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 1: percent of your meal still sitting undigested in your body 623 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: after a few hours. He said, it takes up to 624 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: six hours for food to leave the stomach, which of 625 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: course blows away this timeline. Does that make sense to 626 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: you what he's saying. This is I think two thousand 627 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: and four when he's talking about this. 628 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 2: No, well that you know, that's my understanding. He is 629 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 2: the expert. I'm not the expert on stomach contents. Yeah, 630 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 2: but my understanding is is, yes, up to six hours 631 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 2: in the stomach itself before it starts going through the 632 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 2: rest of the digestice system. But it's also dependent on 633 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 2: the type of food. You know, there's so many factors. 634 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 2: You know, that's when we get into situations to try 635 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 2: to establish time of death. All the things that we 636 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 2: use have variables that impact what we can determine how 637 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,399 Speaker 2: narrow or how wide the time of death interval really is. 638 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 2: For a pathologist to say it had to occur within 639 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 2: this thirty minute window, you just can't do that. 640 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: There's more forensic evidence. I will tell you, Stephen, he 641 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,399 Speaker 1: has exonerated. His name is cleared. It is not because 642 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,800 Speaker 1: of DNA. They collected DNA evidence, but it's not because 643 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: of that. It's really what becomes convincing to people. Besides 644 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: all of this other the bs with the stomach contents 645 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: is forensic entomology comes into play. So there's a biologist 646 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: who worked in the Ontario Attorney General's office in nineteen 647 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: fifty nine. He testifies that there were maggots in her 648 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: body at the time of her autopsy. They were blowflies 649 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: and fresh flies, which lay eggs in animals or humans 650 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: that have been dead for mere minutes, and investigators in 651 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: fifty nine had removed and preserved these maggots. Now, entomologists 652 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: refer to their size, which points to their age, to 653 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: get a more accurate sense of Lynn's time of death. 654 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: Right so they can't conclusively rule out the possibility that 655 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: fly larvae were laid in her freshly dead body on 656 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: the night of the ninth, But at the time of 657 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: her autopsy, they said, based on the maggot size, probably 658 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 1: she died more like the morning the next day. Based 659 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: on the size, do you believe in that? I believe 660 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: in it from my research, but do you believe in it? 661 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 2: Insect evidence is typically the best when it comes to 662 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 2: establishing the window for time of death, and that window 663 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 2: the longer the body has been dead and out in 664 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 2: the environment, that window gets bigger and bigger. In Lind's case, 665 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 2: you have the two days that she was out there. 666 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 2: The entomologist would be able to put a fairly narrow window. 667 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 3: One of the. 668 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 2: Issues that I've seen, and one of the issues that 669 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about, is when the larva or the magot 670 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 2: evidence was collected. If it was collected out in the 671 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 2: field and properly collected, as well as the daytime stamp 672 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 2: put on there at the exact moment it was collected, 673 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 2: then we're dealing with some good evidence. Sometimes this evidence 674 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 2: isn't collected until at autopsy, and now the body has 675 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,720 Speaker 2: been transported and placed in a refrigerator, and of course 676 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,919 Speaker 2: that slows things down, and that's going to throw things off. 677 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 2: So that's part of what when I if I were 678 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 2: to be consulting on this case and listening or reading 679 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 2: this entomologist report or testimony, I would be evaluating was 680 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 2: that type of situation factored in? Was that something that occurred. 681 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 2: Was she refrigerated prior to the maggots being collected? That, 682 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 2: of course is going to throw off the entomologist's timing 683 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 2: if he doesn't factor that in. 684 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: I mean, all of this is to say you cannot 685 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 1: pin this on Stephen Truscott at this point. That is 686 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,919 Speaker 1: the bottom line. So doctor Peniston now starts to back 687 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: down on all of this and he is saying, I 688 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: can't say when the exact time of death is. So 689 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: in August of two thousand and seven, forty eight years later, 690 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: the Ontario Court of Appeal unanimously overturns Stephen Truscott's conviction. 691 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: The Ontario government compensates him with six point five million 692 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,840 Speaker 1: dollars for the trauma he experienced at the hands of 693 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: the judicial system. And at this point, Lynn's family is 694 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: still convinced that he's guilty, which is completely understandable, but 695 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: there is a lot of evidence that says that he's 696 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: not well. 697 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 2: At this point, this is an unsolved case. Where is 698 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 2: the stand today. 699 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,879 Speaker 1: The DNA evidence was collected in nineteen fifty nine, it 700 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: was stored and then, according to the Toronto Star who's 701 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: been following this case, all of that evidence was destroyed. 702 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty seven, they exhumed her body and they 703 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: couldn't get anything from it, so it's an unsolved case. 704 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 2: Well, you know that's where because it was an abjudicated case, 705 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 2: they had a conviction, They had a guy that was 706 00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 2: sentenced to death. 707 00:39:58,800 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 3: Probably I don't know. 708 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,320 Speaker 2: Canada's process, but like typically here in the United States, 709 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 2: you know, once the you know, all the various appeals 710 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 2: processes have been exhausted at a certain point, that's when 711 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 2: the agency can go to the courts and get a 712 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 2: court order allowing them to destroy the evidence because it's 713 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 2: now taking up space and they don't want to have 714 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,319 Speaker 2: to continue to store it indefinitely. 715 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,879 Speaker 1: Steven Truscott is still alive. He is seventy eight years old. 716 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 1: You know, this is still a case that's talked about. 717 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: Just the youngest person to end up on death row 718 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: in Canada and it ends up like this. I understand 719 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: the victim's family wants that answer, and I just cannot 720 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: believe that the DNA evidence was destroyed. It just could 721 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,399 Speaker 1: have given us some information. And with this man, I mean, 722 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,400 Speaker 1: this man who seems like a very likely suspect who's 723 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 1: now dead, and it's just unbelievable to me. But I 724 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: really wanted to talk about forensic entomology because I find 725 00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,839 Speaker 1: I've written about it. I find it so interesting, and 726 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons why I did on this case, 727 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: besides the fact that there was an exoneration here. I 728 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,279 Speaker 1: like talking about bug evidence. I find it so interesting. 729 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: I also did not know that blowflies don't lay eggs 730 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: at night. Bugs are so specific, they just I mean, 731 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: they go in a predictable way. And boy, what a 732 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: creative way to help solve a crime, you know, or 733 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: to help prove someone's innocent. 734 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 2: Forensic entomology it is fascinating and having been out and 735 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 2: watching the insects work, it is an excellent source of evidence. 736 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 2: But the people who are out there at the crime 737 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 2: scene need to understand how to document and collect the 738 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 2: evidence so the entomologists can really define in terms of 739 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 2: time of death. That that's absolutely critical, you know. Kind 740 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 2: of getting back to this evidence being destroyed, you know, 741 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 2: I'm wondering, you know, maybe the evidence that was within 742 00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 2: the law enforcement evidence storage was destroyed. But during trial, 743 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 2: a lot of evidence goes into court, and so many 744 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 2: people overlook the fact that decades later, the court is 745 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 2: still got evidence that was admitted at trial. I wonder 746 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 2: if they pursued that maybe some of the DNA evidence 747 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 2: could still be in that reservoir or another reservoir. My 748 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 2: hope would be is that, you know, we could truly 749 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 2: utilize modern technology to identify the killer. You know, I 750 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 2: know Lynn's family is believing Steven is the killer, and 751 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 2: get them an answer, a firm answer, you know, so 752 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 2: they know whether Steven truly is or not. I will 753 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 2: tell you based on the circumstances. I don't believe he is. 754 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: I don't either. I don't either. It's a hard case. 755 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: Let's end it here. I appreciate your help with all 756 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: of this sorting this out. I learned so much and 757 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,839 Speaker 1: very rarely do you say kind of from the beginning. Boy, 758 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: this doesn't sound right. So this is a good case 759 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,719 Speaker 1: for us to and I'll try to find some more soon. 760 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 3: This is my wheelhouse, you know. 761 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: So I know it's a Paul Holes case. I know 762 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,240 Speaker 1: they jump out at me. I like Kate Winkler Dawson cases. 763 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:11,960 Speaker 1: But I do throw you a bone every once in 764 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,879 Speaker 1: a while and say, let's get a pol Holes case 765 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:14,239 Speaker 1: in here. 766 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:15,760 Speaker 3: I appreciate the bones. 767 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,400 Speaker 1: I appreciate the bones. Okay, I will see you next week. 768 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:20,799 Speaker 3: All right, sounds good? Kate take care. 769 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. 770 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot 771 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,759 Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources. 772 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 773 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson. 774 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,360 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Leona Scilaci. 775 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 776 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,240 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 777 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer. 778 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 779 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod. 780 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 781 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decote the 782 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and 783 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold 784 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: Cases is also available now