1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Frying and I'm Tracy V. Wilson, and today 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: we are serving up part two of my interview with 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: Mindy Johnson, the author of inc and Paint, the Women 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 1: of Walt Disney's animation, and she is so full of 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: information that we very easily filled two episodes with it, 8 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: and I think there are two episodes that both run 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: a little longer than our normal average. Back in part one, 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: Mindy busted some myths and there's more of that on 11 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: the way today, and that includes the idea that women 12 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: in the early days of animation were just tracers and 13 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: not accomplished artists in their own rights. So we will 14 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: jump right in. Will you talk a little bit about 15 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: what the hiring process was like for the women that 16 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: ended up in the inc and Paint department and then 17 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,319 Speaker 1: what their day to day jobs were like. Yeah, and 18 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: it's important to note that there's a lot of material 19 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: out there that states that that was the only place 20 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: women could work. There's a crazy letter from the snow 21 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: White Days that circulates on the internet, and there are 22 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: a couple of things that need to be well. First 23 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: of all, placed in context about that, it was the 24 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties that was the prevailing attitude. But the other 25 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: thing that's important to understand is this was a form 26 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: letter that was actually created in the late twenties because 27 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: by that time that Mickey many cartoons had become worldwide phenomenons, 28 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: and the little tiny studio on the Hyperion Avenue in 29 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: Las Vilas, California was getting inundated with fan mail and 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: people wanting to Oh, I want to work there, I've 31 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: got to do this. Plus it was the depression, so 32 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: it's that much. You know, any kind of job anywhere 33 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: was vital critical, but if you were working at Disney 34 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: Studios you were certainly they didn't feel the immediate effects 35 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: of the compression as other places did in the country. 36 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: It was a boon town and so they were getting 37 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: in inundated. People would literally show up at the front door. 38 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: I got a letter from you, you know, I'm I'm 39 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: ready to work, but yet there was no job because 40 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,839 Speaker 1: they just said, thank you for sending it, but we're 41 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: not hiring at this time. So they changed that their 42 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: generic form letters to state you know, please, it's a 43 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: polite thank you, but please go away. They weren't paying 44 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 1: to have people come out, and certainly they were very 45 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: talented people. But again it was the nineties and the 46 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: men were doing the animation. It was a boys club 47 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:43,839 Speaker 1: at that point, and women's roles were seen as secondary, 48 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: and as women, we tend to not talk about our work. 49 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: It was a man's world at that time, and so 50 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: women really were there. A poor secretary somewhere typed it 51 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: out saying women didn't do any of the creative work. 52 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: But yet this is a secretary who had no understanding 53 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: of what was going on over in that department, nor 54 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: was it in the general mindset to speak about that. 55 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: But it's also important to note that these were not 56 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: There was a myth going around that, oh they picked 57 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 1: women up off the street. My sister's cousin got in there. 58 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: Anybody could train. No, you had to come in, and 59 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: this was Hazel Seol establishing this Tuesday mornings. You had 60 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: to bring in your portfolio, and they were always on 61 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: scramble trying to find qualified talented personnel artists. They sent 62 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: out at various times uh postcards and did radio announcements. 63 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: We found the script for a radio broadcast to the 64 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: forties and fifties taking all women artists please come down. 65 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: So there was segregation in terms of roles in gender, 66 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: but they were seeking women artists their backt ads that 67 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: were placed girl artists wanted. So for women in the 68 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, if you've studied art in any way, shape 69 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: or form, and there were wonderful art schools and institutions, 70 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: this was a major plus. There were also in the 71 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: newspapers you had women columns for personnel and men columns 72 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: for personnel. So that's again why you have to look 73 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: at this from a contextualized manner, because it was very 74 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: different then. So Tuesday mornings, if people came at any 75 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: other point, show up Tuesday mornings, and that's when Hazel 76 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: and her teams would review applicants and take a look 77 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: at their portfolios. And more often than not, if you 78 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: had the talent, you were hired right on the spot, 79 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: and you had to begin by going through training. And 80 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: again Hazel Steel and her teams established training for the 81 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: women in these roles. So the misconception is that they 82 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: taught people how to hold a paint rush. That's what 83 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: the training was, and they painted by number. Nothing could 84 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: be further from the truth. They were brought in as artists. 85 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: They had to prove they were artists, and they were 86 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: trained in the specific artistry and tools and materials required 87 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: for working with syloid and the characterizations of what they 88 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: were trying to accomplish to achieve a unified filmic experience. 89 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: So therein is the difference in how the training was 90 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: laid out, and that was true for animators as well. 91 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: Walt also started animation and training, and animators could come in. 92 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: They could be the most brilliant fine artists, men or women, 93 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: and they still had to go through an animation training program. 94 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: Now it's in the thirties that women were funneled into 95 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: the income paient roles. But by the late thirties we 96 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: see change happening. Retta Scott's, Mildred Rossi ethel Coulsar their 97 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: Biola Anderson. There were a number of women who came 98 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: in in the late thirties of the success of Snow White. Again, 99 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: it's a boomtown at that little studio and it's just 100 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: mushrooming into productions and buildings and personnel, and the staff 101 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: grew so large that Walt grumbled about not being able 102 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: to say hello to everybody personally, because he couldn't take 103 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: the time to get to know everyone because there was 104 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: so much going on and so many people working here. 105 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: When you look at what it's the footage we have, 106 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: you see women. The numbers of women were always higher 107 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: than the national average for women in industry. Wherever those 108 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: numbers landed, Disney was always anywhere from three to five 109 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: or higher percent higher than the national industry of other 110 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: industries where women were so their presence was always there 111 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: from the very beginning. And as these various films are 112 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: expanding whilst seeing that there's a big wider range of 113 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: stories we can and should be telling in a feature 114 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: length forum. So right as Scott is often credited as 115 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: the first female animator, but we do have other women 116 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: in at the studio doing what was called color animation, 117 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: and there are great examples of that in Fantasia and 118 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: some elements in Panecche. But then were visibly present in Fantasia, 119 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: the Takata and few sequence you have sort of pastel 120 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: shapes and colors and forms moving on the screen. That's 121 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: all done by women. Mildred Rossi at the Cool Star 122 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: and the women of the Paint Lab developed a really 123 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: amazing technique where they could have adhere talk past self 124 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: to saluboid directly and the women were animating the color 125 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: directly on the sideline. No pencils. Yeah, and then you 126 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: get people like Retti Scott wielding a pencil, and that 127 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: woman had power in her drawings and so much so 128 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: they would put her drawings in the room and no 129 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: one could tell. And finally some of these gray who 130 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: did the Retta Retta Scott, she was sort of plucked 131 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: from Snard Art Institute. They saw the talent in her, 132 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: brought her in to do some story concept pieces, but 133 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: then moved her into animation and she ended up doing 134 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: one of the most powerful sequences in Bandy, the dog 135 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: fight sequence. For she was just a tremendous expert on 136 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: animals and just these ferocious dogs. I think she gues 137 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: estimated she did over thirty five thousand dog drawing to 138 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: get that sequence. That she had a little bit of 139 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: a learning curve, and there were a couple of other 140 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: male animators who stepped into kind of help her with timing, 141 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: But her drawings and her artistry is definitely there on 142 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: the screen. And she's also the first woman animator to 143 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: get a credit at Disney. We have other early women 144 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: animators in other shorts, but in terms of feature length animation, 145 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: she's first get a credit. So that's why happened. People 146 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 1: have presumed she's the one and only, but there were 147 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: many others working at around that time, and if we 148 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: count color animation, Mildred Rossi is more than likely the first. 149 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: But it's a color animation process, so you know, different 150 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: mediums but still the same thing. And we could even 151 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 1: go earlier to the women doing the blend technique on 152 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: snow white, because that again is early color animation. They're 153 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: moving that color across each cell, so it's, you know, 154 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: just as you would a pencil drawing. Right. You have 155 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: so many great stories about all of these women that 156 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: really did change things significantly and contributed in ways that 157 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: are not always recognized. But I wonder at what point 158 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: in your research was there a moment of revelation of 159 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: just how massive, um and vital the role of women 160 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: was to a lot of these films that have been 161 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: famous forever and aren't really thought of necessarily as being 162 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: the product of a of a female workforce. Yeah, that 163 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: was at my eight months breakdown where I panicked and 164 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: called my editor and went, oh my gosh, this is 165 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: it was almost like an avalanche. It just hit me. 166 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: And I even had some paradigms I had to undo 167 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: because this narrative, this logline, and and here's where it's 168 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: another part of what sort of when the avalanche hit, 169 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: I started playing out and I'm so grateful for the 170 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: volumes that are out there. Many by dear colleagues have 171 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: done extraordinary work. But I began to quickly go to 172 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: the index and start to you know, short change it 173 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: and and go, okay, let's see where the women are. 174 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: And you would find the same four or five women, 175 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: Lillian and Edmund Disney. And it was always Mr. The 176 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: Mrs Disney, that was always and his wife Lilian. No mention, 177 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: you know, the story of Lilian naming Mickey Mickey Mouse 178 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: is about it. No mention of the work that they 179 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: did on those early shorts, No mention at all. Willian 180 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't cash your paychecks if they were going to run short, 181 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: not cash your paychecks so we can meet payroll. So 182 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: she was working for free, you know, at their kitchen 183 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: tables till the wee hours, trying to get these cells 184 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: blackened in on the first Mickey Hu, Mini, Lillian and 185 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: Edna were right there toe to toe from the very beginning, 186 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: and yet they would always get reduced down or if 187 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: they would be mentioned. So one of the other four 188 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: or five women that would be in the indexes of 189 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: a few books with most books would be Margaret Winkler. 190 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: She was the first female producer in the Producer's Guild. 191 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: She added a fictitious day to her name so she 192 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: could operate her business gender neutrals, so no one would 193 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: freak out that she was a woman. And she singlehandedly 194 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: changed animation and turned it into a standard part of 195 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: the theater going experience, so that audiences thought out the 196 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: animation and portions rather than so. She changed it from novelties. 197 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: She put Felix the Cat on the map and made 198 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: him a worldwide phenomenon. And she did the same with 199 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: Walt Disney. So the animation industry owes itself to Margaret Winkler, 200 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: and yet she's always reduced to just a sentence or 201 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: two in most books out there. She's one of the 202 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: handful of women at the early stages. And then, of 203 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: course Mary Blair, wonderful, amazing, extraordinary Mary Blair, but people 204 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: often thought that she was the only female artist, and 205 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: occasionally you'd get read of Scott in there. So you 206 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: get the same four or five women, and that would 207 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: be it. Aside from voice talents, that would be it. 208 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 1: And I thought, wait a second, there are far more 209 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: women out here. There has to be more. And so 210 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: thus began this five year odyssey to get the book done. 211 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: But the research still continued. So it's been seven years 212 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: or more and there are new discoveries every day. Yeah, 213 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: I'm doing some really deep digging into the earliest women 214 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: and it's incredible the work that they did in animation, 215 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: and yet no credit, no acknowledgement, nothing yet, And that's 216 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: gonna change. Mindy incidentally said that we could cut that 217 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: last sentence because she didn't want to come off as 218 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: to bragadocious in her own words. But I really wanted 219 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: to leave it in because, as we're going to see 220 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: in just a little while, her book project, which grew 221 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: from just a tiny kernel of information to become something huge, 222 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: really is changing how people look at Disney animation history. 223 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: But for right now, we are going to pause for 224 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: a quick sponsor break. We're going to jump right back 225 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: in with Mindy here because she made a really good 226 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: point while we were talking about why she wanted to 227 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: include firsthand accounts in her book. It was important in 228 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: working on the book to put it into as many 229 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: firsthand accounts as possible. This is their story, not my 230 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: story to be telling, but their story. And that was 231 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: vital because I knew there would be a lot of 232 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: people coming to challenge what I put across in the book, 233 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: and I'm like, look, these are the voices of the 234 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: women who were there. I do want to talk about 235 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: sort of a controversial time during Walt Disney Studios, which 236 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: was the strike that took place in nineteen forty one, 237 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: and I hope that you would talk a little bit 238 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: about the role of the women in the incompaient department 239 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: during that period and how that strike affected them going forward. Sure, well, 240 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: in the strike was a challenging time for the studio 241 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: and all overall. In fact, it lingered for decades, and 242 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: many of the women, either through their oral histories or 243 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: the families or through those who were still with us, 244 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: you could tell when I would ask about it it 245 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: was a tender still a very tender time caused major 246 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: it forever changed the industry, you know, and you think 247 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: what could have happened had things continued in the fracture 248 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: that that caused. You know, I think it's set things 249 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: back by a decade or more. Um even technologically it 250 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: set things back, but it caused riffs, long riffs. I 251 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: wrote about what I had and what I could find, 252 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: and what people could speak about. And I was pleased 253 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: to see when we went for final reviews on the 254 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: book that everything was retained. So this book holds probably 255 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: the There are other articles and other books about this era, 256 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: but this whole the largest amount of firsthand from the 257 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: women's perspective accounts, and it was it was a very 258 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: personal time for a lot of them in the incompaient department, 259 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: and we hadn't keep in mind that women were in 260 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: virtually every area. This is also the time where Walt 261 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: announces he's on record he began the animation training program 262 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: for women. World War had already broken out in Europe, 263 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: and he was seeing men leaving, and we sort of 264 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: read the signs of what was going on overseas and 265 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: began to prepare, recognizing that as men are going to 266 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: be leaving, we need to keep the systems moving. So 267 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: he began training some of his top anchors in the 268 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: campaign departments. Keep in mind that these women, the inkers 269 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: where the animators had eracers. Anchors went toe to toe 270 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: with everything the animators are doing and working in ink 271 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: without eracers. There's the great saying about ginger rogers did 272 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: everything Freda Stare did backwards and in high heels. These 273 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: women did everything the animators did on celluloid, which is 274 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:09,479 Speaker 1: like skating on ice with ink pens, no eracers, and 275 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: in high heels. So these women were remarkable with what 276 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: they were doing, and Walt was exploring transitioning them into animating. 277 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: And so we have a training program that begins. And 278 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: that was part of some of the early riffs that 279 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: our Babid and others were sort of spouting about that, 280 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: you know, they're trying to train women to do our 281 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: jobs and they're gonna undercut them with pay so it'll 282 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: be cheaper. And isn't that terrible? And Walt delivers a 283 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: speech in February of nineteen forty one saying, look, if 284 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: a woman can do the job, she gets the pay. Now, 285 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: where is that stand today? Even where women are paid 286 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: eighty cents to a man's dollar right, that's very progressive 287 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: and very groundbreaking. And so the women continue to train 288 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: and then as World War we become involved in World 289 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: War two, as that breaks out, women then literally put 290 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: down their pens and brushes and trained and picked up 291 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: pencils and moved into animation. And even before the war, 292 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: um the anchors were in between directly the mail in 293 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: between ers with pencils and erasers. We're not able to 294 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: get the legs on the deers and vandy very clean. 295 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: They would wobble too much. The lines would wobble because 296 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: the girls would have to be matching what they were doing. 297 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: So they just said, you know, let us do it. 298 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: So they were in between ing directly. So when you watch, 299 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: basically again, keep an eye on those deer legs, they 300 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: don't move. And that's the women's work directly on themselves. Yeah, 301 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: that's amazing. So it's those kinds of things were in 302 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,719 Speaker 1: the ether, that's what was happening. There was a lot 303 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: of confusion and mis communication, angry voices. As the drug 304 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: teams become organized, many of the women. In fact, one 305 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: of the corridor heads of ink and Paint and the 306 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 1: special effects team, there was a woman who was running 307 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: the airbrush department. She had over twenty men and women 308 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: working under her. Barbara with Baldwin, she took all of 309 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 1: her teams out. They all went out on strike um 310 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: and you know, again that was their prerogative, and so 311 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: it was a real bitter sweet time. Many people felt 312 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 1: a tremendous loyalty to Walton and he was trying to 313 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: put the money back in to the studio. He had 314 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: built this beautiful, state of the art studios that they 315 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: would have comfortable environments to be working in, and many 316 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: were a little frustrated with that. They liked on top 317 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: of each other hodgepodge of the Hyperion studios, but it 318 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: just wasn't going to work. So sadly, how streamlined things 319 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: became with the studio created some problems and distance and 320 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: confusion and labor issues. And keep in mind also that 321 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: the other studios in town, other animation studios, had gone 322 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: through similar rife years prior to Disney did. It was 323 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: one of the last to hold out and also sort 324 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: of the highest profile, So it's important to know that 325 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: there were other studios that had gone through that, and 326 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: there were some pretty strong armed thugs that were pulling 327 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: some things, but it did change things. Um, I tried 328 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: to be as balanced with what I could get to 329 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: show the fact that it was a difficult device as 330 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: time you had teams who stayed committed to Walton, who 331 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: were in trying to work, and it was also time 332 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: where men had to pick up pens and brushes to 333 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: help get those cells completed. So it was a real 334 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: blurring of the lines. Um it mandated the simplicity of Bumbo. 335 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: As supplies became, you know what, the war happening in Europe, 336 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: supplies became scarcer and colors. The palette is very simple 337 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: and basic because they couldn't get pigments, brushes. They were 338 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: importing sable brushes from overseas. German pigments they couldn't get. 339 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: So it had a pretty profound impact and they had 340 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: to sort of stay malleable and figure out how we're 341 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: going to work with what we can get and what 342 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: we can do. And so oftentimes it's rare to find 343 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: an actual production self from Dumbo because they were washed 344 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: off as in as they you know, so their women's 345 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: artistry went down the drain. Literally. Yeah, what a weird, 346 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: condensed time of just intense things happening all at once. Yeah, 347 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: and you know you had I think Ruthie Thompson talked 348 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: about you had roommates where one would drive the other 349 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: one in and drop she was on strike, and the 350 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: other one was chose to across the line. She'd drop 351 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 1: her off so she could go pick it and she'd 352 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: crossed the line and go in to go to work 353 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: and then at the end of the day pick her 354 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: up and go home. And you know, it was it 355 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: was a very strange time, sad time. It was. It 356 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: was difficult for those who went out on strike. Um 357 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: it lasted several months. You know, people lost their homes. 358 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,719 Speaker 1: It was. It was very difficult. We may have already 359 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: touched on on ones that you would select, but I 360 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: wanted to ask you what you would say, are perhaps 361 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: the key three to four moments in the evolution of 362 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: roles for women at Disney Animation over the years. Mm hmm. 363 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: But that's a that's a tough one. I would say, 364 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: surprisingly had the very beginning. I was thrilled when I 365 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: had to sort of read think about it in Triple 366 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: Check it that the very first employee was a woman, um, 367 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: and that women had always been there, and what was 368 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: accomplished in that first ten years Hazel School. I think 369 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: it's probably one of the most unsung women in animation. 370 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: She took from basic blackening, crude basic blackening, and in 371 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: the span of under ten years, transformed, visually transformed the 372 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: visual experience of animation from black and white blackeners to 373 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: the Rembrandt desk quality of snow white in the Seven Doors. 374 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: And Walt gets the credit, and yes, understandably so because 375 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: he was pushing for that, But what Hazel and her 376 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: teams accomplished, I was stunned. When you look at that 377 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: and begin to sort of wrap your head around all 378 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: that's accomplished it it's mind blowing. And look at that 379 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 1: animation in that time traod where it progresses from and too, 380 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: so that's a key time trade. I would also say 381 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: the advent of zoography World War two is very big 382 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: with Rosie the Riveters. We have Rosie the Rivet, Rosie's 383 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: with pencil the advent of dereography, thinking was a very 384 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: costly These women were premium artists and far more than 385 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: what men were accomplishing with pencils, because pencils have eracers 386 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: and you had other artists coming in and cleaning up 387 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: your line. So the fine artistry of inking, which the 388 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: real zenith of that is Sleeping Beauty. And again if 389 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: you're watching that film looking for the line artistry and there, 390 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: it's again just mind blowing. But how pivotal that point 391 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: is when in order to save animation truly the advent 392 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: of gereography did in fact say that, but women moved 393 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: into those front lines. It changes the artistry, but women 394 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: were also there and working on those early zereography teams. 395 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: And then I would say probably the third and these 396 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: are overarching changes for animation in general, is that digital advent. 397 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: But it's important to note that women were right there 398 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: at that moment and part of those teams as animation 399 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: transforms into a digital art form. So just as the 400 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: pivotal point for animation, it's important to remember women have 401 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: always been there. Specifically for women, I would say those 402 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: early earliest years from about twenty seven to thirty seven 403 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: catl Seel and her teams, and this is also sort 404 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: of occurring at other studios, but Tad and Shoulders above 405 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: all else, Haitel Sewel and her accomplishments were remarkable. You 406 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: also have other independent women animators working at that time. 407 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: Women are moving into animation in the thirties, and that's critical. 408 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: The war had a very big impact in moving women 409 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: into positions. Sadly, at the end of the war, again 410 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: it was society that said, okay, back to the kitchens. 411 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: In fact, there were campaigns, the government issued campaigns about 412 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: being housewives again so that they would free up the 413 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: jobs for the men to come back and we could 414 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: get back to making babies. So that's the nineteen forties, 415 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: which is a real crazy, strange anomaly of a time period. 416 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: And then I would say for women, specifically the seventies, 417 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: the women's movement and getting women to wake up to 418 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: who they are and their own discoveries of what they're doing. 419 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: You see a tremendous rise in Interestingly enough, in the 420 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: nineteen forties in divorces, laws were very different. You had 421 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 1: to prove infidelity, but by the nineteen seventies and the 422 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: changes to that, you could divorce for irreconcilable differences rather 423 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: than proving infidelity or other issues. Um, that had a 424 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 1: tremendous impact in preeing up women. You also have birth control, 425 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: where women are changing and their lives are transitioning, and 426 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: suddenly they can stave off having their families, and we 427 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: see a tremendous rise in women getting their college degrees. 428 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: It's in the seventies and eighties where the number of 429 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: women enrolled in colleges evens out to men and in 430 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: some places surpasses the number of men studying in school. 431 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: So that's again why I've had to put everything into context. 432 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: You can understand where women are in terms of animation 433 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 1: and that industry and the advances that occur and the 434 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: opportunities occur for women. Society still had their whole it's 435 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: hold on where women were and what they could do, 436 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: and many ways we still have a lot of that 437 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: shake out of today. Coming up, we are going to 438 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: talk about some of the more recent and very exciting 439 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: developments for women in animation. But first we will pause 440 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: for a sponsor break. Now Disney while Disney Animation Studios 441 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: has its first woman chief creative Officer, which is pretty 442 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: exciting to me, very exciting like that. That announcement really 443 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: was emotional when I heard it. It was surprising to 444 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: me how deeply it moved me. I am emotional just 445 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: talking about these women, and I get people coming up 446 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: out of all ages, men and women emotional about how 447 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: come we don't know this and and then pointing out 448 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 1: that's still today. I did an event about a year 449 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: ago at the Motion Picture Academy and audible gaps from 450 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: the industry in the room going we had no idea 451 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 1: and the course of change that that's helped, you know, 452 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: the turning of the page helps to sort of flap 453 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: that page over big time, so that getting people to 454 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: sort of wake up from this unconscious bias, to realize 455 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: there is this need for change and we are so 456 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: unconscious and how we moved to this world about it 457 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: and realizing that we still have those instances today where 458 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: we have tremendous glass feelings. We have to break through. 459 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: We have to change that unconscious preset of defaulting to 460 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: the men and not thinking about, oh, well, where are 461 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: the women, and why don't we get women in? What 462 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: can we do to get women in here? Because we've 463 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: been missing out on half the sky. Bringing John Lennon 464 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: into this, you know, we have that we've we've missed 465 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: half of our human experience by not letting women come 466 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: to the table. We're not recognizing what women have already 467 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: brought to the table. That is one of the reasons 468 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: I love your book. Thank you. I mean, I like, 469 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: seriously to me, I think it is so important. I 470 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: think it should be part of college courses. I think 471 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: it is a vitally important piece of education for anyone 472 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: who is interested in animation, but for anyone who is 473 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: interested in looking at just sort of how culture has 474 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: been impacted and yet not acknowledged by women, which is fascinating, 475 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: Which is why I'm really excited about the next project 476 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: that you told me you're working on, well, the next generation. 477 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: Will you talk about that a little bit? Sure? Absolutely, Well, 478 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: a couple of things in terms of education. UM. So 479 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: we've just announced I'm teaching a class this fall at 480 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: cal Arts on the history of women and animation, the 481 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: first of its kind, and my book is the text. 482 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: See me, I get I get emotional about it too. Um. 483 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: And it's going to go, you know, beyond Dissey if 484 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: I'm doing deeper dives into the biographies of these women 485 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: as much as I can at this point. So it's 486 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: going to be ever changing because the research is ongoing. UM. 487 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: But I'm prepping for that right now, and it's we're 488 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: opening it up to faculty and all students. They don't 489 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: have to be animation students, they get priority, but they 490 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: asked if it would be okay to open that up, 491 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: and I said, absolutely, let's do it. So I'll be 492 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: speaking to um the history of women and other underrepresent 493 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: at groups within animation, primarily women and their advents, who 494 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: they are as people, taking a deeper dive into their accomplishments, 495 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: because some of the earliest women, it's so much even 496 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: beyond animation, it's it's mind blowing, and that leads me 497 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: to I'm currently working on a young reader's book called Pencils, 498 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: Pens and Brushes Great Girls of Disney Animation, and this 499 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: little treasured volume is a wonderful opportunity to go a 500 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: little further into some of these remarkable women, many of 501 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: which not only accomplished remarkable advancements within animation and their 502 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: roles within animation are so vital, but when you look 503 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: at their lives beyond animation, both before coming to Disney 504 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:57,479 Speaker 1: Studios and beyond, it's incredible the caliber of these women. 505 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: A couple of examples. One woman, her name was Grace Huntington's. 506 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: She was the second woman to work in story at 507 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: Disney Studios in a late nineteen thirties and while she 508 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: was working there, sharp amazing young girl who worked hard 509 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: at coming in with new and fresh ideas and preparing 510 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: her pitches. And she learned she had to step right 511 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: in and the pitch sessions and the men would get 512 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: very you get up and act out the antics and things. 513 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: She couldn't be a waltflower. She had to get out 514 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: there and do it. Her brother was also a pilot, 515 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: and she was fascinated with this idea of flight. Now 516 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: this is in the you have to remember things that 517 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: move as lightning fast as they do today, and the 518 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: allure of Charles Lindberg's transatlantic flight was still a major thing, 519 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: and so aviation took off, no pun intended. It literally 520 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: just lawesomed and women were very excited about this new 521 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: form of transportation. So Grace was fascinated with it. And 522 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: her brother was getting his pilot license, and she thought, well, 523 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: I could do that while working into the studios. She 524 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: got her license. And she had always been fascinated as 525 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: a young girl with Jules Verne's trip to the Moon 526 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: and other you know, science fiction things. And this was 527 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: the late thirties. Had there been a space program, this 528 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: woman would have been part of it. In fact, she 529 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: sent correspondence to the military in Washington inquiring about high altitude. 530 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: She actually went on and trained full time. She left 531 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: as they and trained full time and broke a record 532 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: in high altitude flights for small aircraft and wanted to 533 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: continue doing this. And she made query to the military saying, look, 534 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: I just broke this record. Here's the newspaper and documentation, 535 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: and then we got my flight reported back everything. You know. 536 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: Would you like to sponsor me? I'm I'm here, let's 537 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: do more of this. No, thank you, you're a woman. 538 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: They wouldn't. Yes, she couldn't get work as a pilot's 539 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,320 Speaker 1: because she was a woman. So she ended up training. 540 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: She had to become a flight instructor, and the aviation 541 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: out that that helped her train said okay, you know, 542 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: we'll keep you on. So here she had she brought 543 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: this record and still couldn't get work because she was 544 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 1: a woman. But she was part of the earliest inklings 545 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: of the space race, and yet I shouldn't do anything 546 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: with it, and began working at Disney Studio. That's such 547 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: a great story. It is I want gas or there's 548 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 1: so much more. And to continue with aviation, we have 549 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: the first woman to get her pilot's license in Connecticut 550 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: with a woman by the name of Mary good Rich, 551 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: and she went on and became the first person to 552 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: fly solo of Cuba and was the first person to 553 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: have a syndicated aviation column. She was the first woman 554 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 1: reporter at her local newspaper and then got a syndicated 555 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: aviation column because they said, oh, we need someone to 556 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: write this. If you get your pilots license, maybe you 557 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 1: could do that. So she did, and sadly then when 558 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: her eyesight went bad, she ended up moving making her 559 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: way out to California and got a job. She established 560 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: the first story research department at the Disney Studios in 561 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: and in my lectures, I'll say, well, that was the 562 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 1: Internet of the nineties. What she and her team did 563 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: they would use these really amazing things called books, and 564 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: they would research and find out, you know, well, what's 565 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: the dear's habits hat looked like? And for a pinecchio, 566 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: what what would it look like inside of a whale? 567 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: And how would you you know, answering those questions so 568 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 1: that the artists could create these worlds and characters that 569 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: we know and love. So she was pretty remarkable in 570 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: her own right and the advent to fight. She also 571 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: flew on the Hindenburg made one of the one of 572 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: the Transatlantic passages on the Hindenburgh. I think it was 573 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: the the before it, like one or two of the 574 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: passages before it blew up. Yeah, So there's really I mean, 575 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: these women were right there at these Mary Costa are 576 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: wonderful voice of Princess Aroa went on and had She 577 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: was one of the leading matso sopranos an opera, the 578 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: grand world of opera, and performed on every opera stage 579 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: in the world. And yet no one knows that unless 580 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: you're an opera fan, and the upper fans don't know 581 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: about her work in animation because I didn't know that 582 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,720 Speaker 1: about her. And it does strike being sort of hilarious 583 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: when you watch somebody who knows one part of her 584 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: career and someone knows the other meet each other and 585 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: they're like, no, she was a singer, and it's like never, No, 586 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: is it a different Mary Costa? No right, because again, 587 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: nothing had been put down in word. There was no 588 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: place to go to to get the sort of the 589 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 1: definitive answer on it. And and realized too as big 590 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: and monstrous as that book is, and it had to be. 591 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 1: It still is scratching a rich, incredible, cavernous surface to 592 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: who these women were, what they accomplished, the epic saga 593 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: of a hundred years of our animated collective animated past, 594 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: and women have always been there. So it's it's at 595 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 1: least to go to place. It's a reference, it's a 596 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: deep dive. It's a light magazine read. It's a textbook. 597 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: So I'll be using that my book as sort of 598 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 1: the text for the cal arts class, little teaching and 599 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 1: uh and sort of. I'm currently working on war material 600 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: a little more involved on women, not only at Disney 601 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: but beyond Disney. But the records are hard to find 602 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: because again history is preserved writ about recorded an archived 603 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: from a male perspective. So it's one paragraph here and 604 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: two sentences there, you know, contacting someone's relatives and their 605 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: accounts and digging under beds and into closets and bankers 606 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: boxes too, pieces together, and it really was on the 607 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: cusp of I kept thinking, Oh, had I started a 608 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: year sooner, how many more women I could have gotten to. 609 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: So it is it's it's a puzzle that still has 610 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 1: many pieces missing, but they're coming together and finally we 611 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: have a framework, we have a platform, we have a 612 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: place to go to to begin to understand this, and 613 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:08,400 Speaker 1: the research continues. So I'm I'm, I'm at it. So 614 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: any funding or resources are a little hard to come by, 615 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 1: but if if I may make an open call out, 616 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 1: if anybody knows or has a relative, or can think 617 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: of anything, please find me. My website is Mindy Johnson 618 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 1: Creative dot com and you can find me there. I'm 619 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,800 Speaker 1: on Facebook and that has worked. I've actually had since 620 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: the book the first printing were now in a second 621 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: printing and reaching towards the third printing. UM. Since the 622 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: first printing came out, a couple of families reached out 623 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 1: and said, that's my mother who's unidentified on this page, 624 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 1: and they are now identified in the subsequent printing. Yeah, 625 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: and new discoveries all lot. Will make sure we include 626 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: your website address in the show notes as well, so 627 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,359 Speaker 1: easily click through and get it. UM. I feel like 628 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: it's so wonderful that this book, which would easily be 629 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: for someone the culmination of their work, is in fact 630 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: for you. Just a jumping off point. I love it 631 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: so much. That became very that was also part of 632 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: that avalanche. This is never going to stop, which is great. 633 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 1: I'm now jealous of all the students at cal Arts 634 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: a little bit because I think that course sounds amazing. Um, Mindy, 635 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 1: thank you so much. I'm just I feel so lucky 636 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: to get to spend this time learning from you. Thank 637 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: you well. It's joy And a big part of this 638 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: has been getting the message out and helping to change 639 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: this narrative about women and their roles in the presence 640 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: that they've had and a contribution to our animated and 641 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: collective entertainment past. It changes things to the point where 642 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 1: we think today, where we are at today is vital 643 00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: and important. But what's important to understand is that we 644 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 1: have this rich, amazing path, too incredible shoulders to stand on, 645 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: and we don't have to get out there and reinvent 646 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: the wheel. We don't have to blaze as many trails 647 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: as we thought we had to. A large part of 648 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: the lifting has been done. We failed in recognizing that collectively, 649 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: men and women, we failed at that, and we can 650 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 1: change that now. So that's what's important here is that 651 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 1: as we move forward, as we've changed the mindset of 652 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: studios and executives and audiences to look for the stories 653 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 1: that women can bring to our world. It's also on 654 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: us to keep moving forward, keep this documented, keep it recorded, 655 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,800 Speaker 1: keep it balanced so that we don't lose this history. 656 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,879 Speaker 1: That we keep it moving forward. And as we move 657 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 1: into a digital age, we don't have those pieces of 658 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: paper to randomly f that are tucked under beds, so 659 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:08,320 Speaker 1: it's important to keep the documentation fresh, restored, and placed 660 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 1: within a balanced context. I remain so delighted and I 661 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: think it is so incredibly cool that Mindy's work has 662 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: now led to a new class at cal Arts. I 663 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: think it's fabulous that people are going to learn this 664 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: part of the story that has not always been common 665 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 1: knowledge at all, even among people who love animation and 666 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: have studied its history. My sinse serious. Thanks to Mindy 667 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,320 Speaker 1: for taking almost two hours to share her vast and 668 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 1: incredible knowledge and passion with me. I know she has 669 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 1: some new stuff on the horizon. We will keep you 670 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: posted as those things get announced. Yeah, you can find 671 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: Mindy online at Mindy Johnson Creative dot com. That's Mindy 672 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: M I N D Y. Will we start to include 673 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,360 Speaker 1: that link in the show notes as well. Do you 674 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 1: have some listener mails takes out I do. Our last 675 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 1: listener mail was a continuation of the discussion of rare Bit. 676 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,879 Speaker 1: We're kind of doing a similar thing on this one, 677 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 1: and that it is a continuing sh of the discussion 678 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,319 Speaker 1: of the Georgia Gold Rush. Uh. This is from our 679 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 1: listener Terry, who wrote, Hi, Tracy and Holly. I greatly 680 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,240 Speaker 1: enjoy the show and I've been listening for several years. 681 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: I grew up in Cobb County, Georgia, and we had 682 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: Georgia history in the sixth grade, and we did talk 683 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: about the Delanaga Gold Rush as well as the Trail 684 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 1: of Tears. Two things I wanted to add about the episode. One, 685 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: the Georgia Capitol Building in Atlanta is covered in gold 686 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: leaf from Delanaga and Lumpkin County. I knew that, but 687 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:28,799 Speaker 1: did not include it in the episode because then it 688 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 1: got into a whole other story. That dome was first 689 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 1: gilded in the nineteen fifties and was regilded in the 690 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. For that reason, the Capitol Building is referred 691 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 1: to as the Gold Dome. Reporters have long referred to 692 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: legislation and politics in Georgia as happening under the gold dome. Uh. Yeah, 693 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 1: that's just like an interesting part of like local cultural 694 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,799 Speaker 1: history and goings on that people may not know if 695 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 1: they have never been to Atlanta. If you drive through Atlanta, 696 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 1: you see that building with the big gold dome that 697 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,799 Speaker 1: is in fact the Capitol building. Um. Terry says, I 698 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,279 Speaker 1: currently live in Villa Rica, Georgia, and there was a 699 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 1: modest gold rush in Villa Rica prior to Delannaga and 700 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 1: White County, the other rival for the title. Villa Rica 701 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 1: has its own gold rush museum and festival, and there 702 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: are still people who pay for gold in the area, 703 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,400 Speaker 1: but they do not turn up as much as in 704 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 1: the Delanaga area. And then Terry gave us some show suggestions, so, um, 705 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Terry. I wanted to mention this 706 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 1: because I didn't mention the Capitol really and that is 707 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 1: fascinating landmark. And also I did not know about Villarica 708 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,800 Speaker 1: having had a minor gold rush, so they were happening everywhere. 709 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,320 Speaker 1: We didn't even know it. Yeah. We've also gotten a 710 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 1: couple of like tweets about whether the gold find we 711 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,080 Speaker 1: talked about in North Carolina should be framed as like 712 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 1: an earlier gold rush. Um. Don't know who sets the 713 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 1: rule for what's the rush and what isn't. Yeah, I 714 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,680 Speaker 1: don't either. I presume it's a volume thing, and it 715 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: also becomes a matter of like is the rush based 716 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:55,959 Speaker 1: on the amount of gold or the amount of people 717 00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 1: that freak out about it, because that's a whole other thing. 718 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,759 Speaker 1: I did not see anything. And again, this could just 719 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: be like a gap in in places I looked that 720 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 1: suggested that the North Carolina finds we're considered a rush. 721 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 1: Perhaps people local to that area would consider them so, 722 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,359 Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't. Usually the Delanaga one is kind 723 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 1: of listed as the first one in the country, the 724 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: first true gold rush, whatever that means. Again, we know 725 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: we're in slippery not always clearly defined territory, but then 726 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:32,120 Speaker 1: they all got overshadowed by California. Anyway. If you would 727 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: like to write to us, you can do so at 728 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 1: History Podcast at how Stuff Works dot com. You can 729 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,880 Speaker 1: also find us everywhere on social media under the handle 730 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,840 Speaker 1: missed in History and Missed in History dot Com is 731 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 1: also where you will find the show and all of 732 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: its archives and show notes. Uh. If you would like 733 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: to subscribe to us, we highly encourage you to do so. 734 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: You can do that on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, 735 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,279 Speaker 1: or pretty much anywhere you get podcasts, so we'll hope 736 00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 1: to see you there. For more on this and thousands 737 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 1: of other topics, visit how staff works dot com.