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Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust me?

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Speaker 2: Right? Ever?

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Speaker 1: Lead you wish your trust?

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Speaker 2: This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 3: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 3: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 3: and manipulation from two Ellwood's fans who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 3: I am Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth. And

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Speaker 3: today our guest is Carol Murchison, a lawyer sometimes referred

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Speaker 3: to as the cult Assassin because she specializes in suing

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Speaker 3: cults and high control groups for sexual misconduct. She's going

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Speaker 3: to tell us how she started off as an investigator,

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Speaker 3: how her work uncovering abuse in a Buddhist organization that

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Speaker 3: she was initially skeptical about led her down this professional path,

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Speaker 3: why the differences between various religions and ideologies are actually

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Speaker 3: not that important when it comes to the abuse of power,

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Speaker 3: and how we determine whether abuse is a bad apple

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Speaker 3: problem versus a systemic problem.

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Speaker 4: Yep, she'll talk to us about why human trafficking is

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Speaker 4: more subtle then we typically imagine. How the law and

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Speaker 4: the US is behind un legally recognizing coersion that happens

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Speaker 4: to an adult or doesn't involve immediate physical violence. How

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Speaker 4: cults threaten to sue as a weapon to silence people

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Speaker 4: who speak out about them, and what tools are available

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Speaker 4: if you do get threatened with a defamation lawsuit, which

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Speaker 4: you have been congratulation.

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Speaker 3: When's it going to happen again? It's like, what do

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Speaker 3: you call it? The ritual of thing?

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Speaker 1: You pass? Oh? Azing? No, it's a right of past.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: I literally said the word pass and I couldn't get it. Okay, Okay,

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Speaker 3: before we get into the legal intricacy use of cults, Megan,

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Speaker 3: what's your cultiest thing.

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Speaker 1: Of the week.

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Speaker 4: Well, first of all, I'm obsessed with Carol. I want

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Speaker 4: her to live in my closet.

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Speaker 1: You want her to.

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Speaker 3: Live is where I thought was over. I was like

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Speaker 3: me too, they're a problem. Should I be concerned? No,

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Speaker 3: I want her to live in my closet. Okay, And

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Speaker 3: he just like that sounds abusive. Okay, you want to

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Speaker 3: have her in your life. I want to have her

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Speaker 3: in my life and she can never leave.

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Speaker 1: You're going to need a new cult dissassinate from you.

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Speaker 4: Indeed, my cultiest thing of the week is a conversation

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Speaker 4: that I would be interested in.

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Speaker 1: Having with her.

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Speaker 4: Actually, I'll have to go in my closet later and

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Speaker 4: see if she's up to talking. Do you remember the

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Speaker 4: guy from San Diego. His name was Matthew Coleman, and

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Speaker 4: he murdered his two children, and one of the most

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Speaker 4: horrific cases, he took them down to Mexico.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember those?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I was reading that he was actually forcibly

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Speaker 4: put on medication so he could not plead insanity. Lori Valo,

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Speaker 4: who also killed her children and kind of a cultic

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Speaker 4: doomsday psychosis not being allowed to plead insanity being very

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Speaker 4: help accountable. And then there's this ruby Frankie like mommy

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Speaker 4: blogger who's being held to the highest degree of the law,

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Speaker 4: and it just feels like we're kind of going into

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Speaker 4: a world where the law is really cracking down on

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Speaker 4: these types of crimes.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I thought, okay, so this was not about the medication.

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Speaker 3: I got stuck on the medication nothing. Okay, So you're

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Speaker 3: just saying that, like they they are not allowing people

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Speaker 3: to plead insanity. I guess since I hadn't really followed

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Speaker 3: any cases like this before, I have no understanding of

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Speaker 3: the history of whether that's changing or not. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: that would be a really good question for Carol. Maybe

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Speaker 3: we can email her and I hope she answers. If

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Speaker 3: she doesn't, we're very sorry to get your hopes up.

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Speaker 3: But those are to me though, those are pretty clear

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Speaker 3: cut cases, because the murder of a child is like,

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Speaker 3: unequivocally like something that's someone's going to be held responsible.

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Speaker 4: Before in Ruby's case, she didn't kill them, she abused

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Speaker 4: them a lot, and people are shocked at her sentence.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty maximum.

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Speaker 4: So I feel like there's some leaning into holding people accountable.

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Speaker 4: And what worries me about that is are people who

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Speaker 4: are under like control being coerced into the are going

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Speaker 4: to be like it just brings up a lot of

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Speaker 4: difficult questions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I think you know, one of

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Speaker 3: the things we'll talk about in this episode is how

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Speaker 3: dad is the one area of the law that has

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Speaker 3: not really been as like it's an obvious crime, and

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Speaker 3: I think it's historically been very much prosecuted, and the

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Speaker 3: crimes that maybe haven't gotten as much attention are the

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Speaker 3: ones that are a little more complex, that don't involve

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Speaker 3: children or don't involve violence. So those are some questions

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Speaker 3: we'll get into in this interview, y'all, I can't wait.

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Speaker 3: What's your cultiest thing of the week? So single again?

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Speaker 1: Hell? Single again? Why are you signing like that?

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Speaker 3: It's like, it's not what I've desired for my future,

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Speaker 3: but this is what has happened in my life. So

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Speaker 3: that means I'm on dating apps again.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, And you know it happened again.

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Speaker 3: And in fairness, I was like crashing out post breakup

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Speaker 3: because this was like pretty immediately.

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Speaker 1: After the breakup.

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Speaker 3: I immediately found like an obvious, raging, horrific narcissist. Perfect

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Speaker 3: And I don't use y'all know, I don't throw that

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Speaker 3: word around, Like I really don't like that word. I

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Speaker 3: think people over use that word and overdiagnose. He might

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Speaker 3: not be a narcissist, but I think he has. I

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Speaker 3: think he is fully on the antisocial rumor that he's

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Speaker 3: a raging narcissist, some kind of personality disorder. And I

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Speaker 3: got the full love bomb and I was like I

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Speaker 3: just need attention. I don't care, and I fortunately cut

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Speaker 3: it off pretty quick because I was like, this is

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Speaker 3: a terrible situation.

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Speaker 4: Just get the love bomb and then dip before it

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Speaker 4: could go into the devaluation. It went up like because

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Speaker 4: I was like, that's brilliant. We should all do that. Okay,

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Speaker 4: But here's what I noticed happening in my brain. Like

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Speaker 4: I was like, I feel crazy. I feel high.

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Speaker 3: I feel like I'm literally high, and then I feel

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Speaker 3: like I'm crashing down and I'm not high anymore and

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Speaker 3: I need the high. And I was like, this is crazy.

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Speaker 3: I don't even like this person. I think he's like

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Speaker 3: cringey as fuck, and like if I thought someone else

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Speaker 3: in my life was a sexatic, this person is like

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Speaker 3: next level, like the boss level version, you know, like

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Speaker 3: the final boss type of that.

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Speaker 1: So I don't even like him.

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Speaker 3: But he was using the techniques of like giving you

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Speaker 3: the attention and the you're making you feel really good

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Speaker 3: and then withdrawing it and then giving it to you

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Speaker 3: and then withdrawing it, and it worked like a child

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Speaker 3: like a charm.

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Speaker 1: Even though I don't like him. It's not cool, it's crazy.

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Speaker 3: It's like I'm a mouse, like I'm a fucking in

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Speaker 3: a lab like we are literally we are. So this

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Speaker 3: is my this is my PSA for all of our

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Speaker 3: ladies listening and our fellas. You are not stronger than

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Speaker 3: these manipulation tactics great, because when we've talked about this before,

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Speaker 3: even when we go in knowing that that's what's happening, oh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it does not help it.

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Speaker 3: It's like taking heroin and being like, I know i'm

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Speaker 3: gonna yeah, I know it's gonna make me feel good,

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Speaker 3: but I won't do it again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Fortunately I recognized it and I really really want a healthy,

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Speaker 3: long term relationship, and so I cut it off.

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Speaker 1: But it took me a couple of tries, honestly, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what I was gonna hearken too. It's just the

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Speaker 1: only option is to.

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Speaker 4: Remove yourself completely, and it's difficult, and your brain is

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Speaker 4: it's like it was like, yeah, more hair, brain is

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Speaker 4: gonna want and just like stick back on it and

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Speaker 4: you have to very consciously just rip it out. No,

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Speaker 4: and it releases like cortisol or something because you're stressed

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Speaker 4: that you can't get the dopamine. Yet more stressful than

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Speaker 4: just feeling good, it's like also adding stress.

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Speaker 1: It's so disregulating. Just fucking stay away from them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was like, I've known this person for seven days,

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Speaker 3: how could I feel disregulated by that?

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Speaker 1: That's crazy.

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Speaker 3: It's like a mixer to the brain, and I was

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Speaker 3: like calling him out on his manipulations and he was

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Speaker 3: admitting to it, and he just literally continued to do

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Speaker 3: the exact same things.

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Speaker 1: It was so sociopathic, like I can't.

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Speaker 4: Wait to see a picture he's barely cute, Like oh,

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Speaker 4: just like barely stress just like, okay, good enough, you

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Speaker 4: know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Okay, great, it makes it even better, it really does.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, if you know me in person, I'll give you

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Speaker 3: all the all the details, but they do not need

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Speaker 3: to be described here.

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Speaker 1: But it was so stupid.

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Speaker 4: I've done this so many times where I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: I have to get over somebody. I'm just gonna like

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Speaker 4: go out with this person and it's a total rando.

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Speaker 4: And then I'm like dating them and I'm sad about

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Speaker 4: that new person, right, and I'm like, this is my

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Speaker 4: brain is hijacking itself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I can't do it.

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Speaker 3: So I yeah, I have been taking a break from

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Speaker 3: dating after a wild It wasn't just him too, Like

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Speaker 3: I kind of went on a frenzy because I was like,

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Speaker 3: I need to see someone. If he's seeing someone and

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Speaker 3: the X I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, But now that no,

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Speaker 3: I do not fuck with that guy A great part,

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Speaker 3: like once you unbelgiry yourself, like it goes away pretty quickly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but it does take some strength. And also

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Speaker 4: just when you recognize the signs like I'm it might

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Speaker 4: be fun for the night, but like it is gonna

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Speaker 4: fuck my.

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Speaker 1: Brain up, it will fuck your brain up.

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Speaker 3: And I will say withdrawing myself from that need to

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Speaker 3: fill a void has been definitely the healthiest thing.

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Speaker 1: So do recommend that, but.

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Speaker 3: Or just go still, Carol out there soon or that

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Speaker 3: he'll be back out there soon. That's beautiful, It's something anyway.

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Speaker 3: Should we talk to Carol?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean, am I doing too many jokes about

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Speaker 4: kidnapping or though I think it's.

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Speaker 1: Just the right amount of jokes that kidnapping. I love you, Carol,

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Speaker 1: Let's talk to you.

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Speaker 3: Welcome Carol Murchison to trust me. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 3: joining us today.

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Speaker 2: I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: We're obsessed with you.

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Speaker 3: I just thought I should know some people have referred

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Speaker 3: to you as the cult Assassin, which we will talk

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Speaker 3: about why, But first, can you give us a little

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Speaker 3: bit about your background before you kind of got into

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Speaker 3: the current work that you're doing.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. So I'm a lawyer, and I was a

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Speaker 2: lawyer in a couple of big firms in the United States,

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Speaker 2: and I did employment law, and as an employment lawyer,

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Speaker 2: I also did investigations into sexual misconduct in the workplace.

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Speaker 2: And so I retired and at a certain point I

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Speaker 2: got involved in doing exactly what I had been doing before,

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Speaker 2: which was an investigation, but this time it was into

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Speaker 2: a Buddhist commuity unity in Canada because a woman had

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Speaker 2: contacted me and said that there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: sexual assault going on and I honestly had a hard

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Speaker 2: time believing it. And that was number one, and the

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Speaker 2: number two was I said to her, well, they need

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Speaker 2: to do an investigation, because that's what I knew. If

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Speaker 2: I was in an organization and they had that kind

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Speaker 2: of report, they would want to do an investigation. And

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Speaker 2: she said, no, they're not speaking to me. So in

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Speaker 2: a kind of rash moment, I said, well, all right,

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Speaker 2: I'll help you out and I'll investigate. And I did,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of what was reported was true, and

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Speaker 2: I found a number of victims and that got a

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Speaker 2: lot of media coverage, and then I had other women

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Speaker 2: come forward and so I spent four years doing pro

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Speaker 2: bono investigations into religious communities where women were alleging sexual assault.

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Speaker 2: After four years, I found out that very few of

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Speaker 2: these organizations, as you can imagine from your own experiences

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Speaker 2: and knowledge, they were not going to take responsibility for

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Speaker 2: what had happened. So I joined a law.

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Speaker 1: Firm that'll do it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because, yeah, because it looked like it was going

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Speaker 2: to take the you know, the the hammer of the

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Speaker 2: law to get anyone to change.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: This is maybe not an important detailer question to ask,

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Speaker 3: but I'm curious about why you didn't necessarily think she

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Speaker 3: was telling the truth at first?

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Speaker 5: Well, because I think it was Buddhist, do you know,

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Speaker 5: it was like Buddhists there do no harm, you know,

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Speaker 5: their compassion.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't that I didn't believe her. It was that

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Speaker 2: it was hard for me to wrap my mind around

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Speaker 2: that a religious or a spiritual organization would be aware

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Speaker 2: and allowing and enabling.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 4: That's a great question, and it just shows theon bias

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Speaker 4: we all have.

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, well, Yeah, the way that religions present themselves

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Speaker 3: can sort of insulate them inherently from a certain kind

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Speaker 3: of scrutiny because We're like, they don't believe. Yeah, that

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Speaker 3: that's right, So they wouldn't do that. Yeah, that's super interesting.

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Speaker 3: And when you were investigating, what did that look like?

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Speaker 3: Like just interviewing people or like, were you digging through

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Speaker 3: someone's trash?

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Speaker 1: Like what is it?

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Speaker 2: I was talking to people it was not as exciting

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Speaker 2: as well, digging through trash isn't that exciting? I'm guessing

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Speaker 2: on the ground. In fact, it was a lot of

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Speaker 2: time spent getting people to trust me enough to talk

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Speaker 2: to me, And then it was talking to women who

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Speaker 2: were survivors of this. And my initial idea had been

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Speaker 2: that because I wasn't being hired by the organization, so

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Speaker 2: if I went into a company in the United States,

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Speaker 2: i'd be hired by the organist. I would go in,

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Speaker 2: they would put me in a conference room, and HR

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Speaker 2: would bring all these people down to talk to me.

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Speaker 2: But this wasn't like that. These were people who had

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Speaker 2: lost faith, who needed to build trust, and who didn't

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Speaker 2: really believe that anything could happen because nothing had happened.

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Speaker 2: So I spent a lot of time with that. But

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Speaker 2: then I compiled what I would think of is corroboration, right,

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Speaker 2: So either they disclosed something to somebody at the time.

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Speaker 2: There's very rarely witnesses to sexual assault, you know, this

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Speaker 2: is not an area where we think that there's a

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Speaker 2: bystander who has seen something. And so it was compiling evidence,

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Speaker 2: and my idea was that I was going to present

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Speaker 2: this evidence to them so that they would do their

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Speaker 2: own independent investigation. Sometimes that worked and sometimes it didn't.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes the organization said, you know, never mind, you know,

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Speaker 2: basically I don't care about it. But in one or

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Speaker 2: two cases they did do an investigation, but only after

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Speaker 2: they had known about the sexual assaults for quite some time,

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Speaker 2: so this was not something that was news to them.

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Speaker 4: What did it look like for you to have it

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Speaker 4: dawn on you that this was not just a rumor,

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Speaker 4: that this was actually real.

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Speaker 2: For me, it kind of lit a fire. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: for me, it was wait a minute, yeah, And what

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Speaker 2: I found was this was not only real, but this

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Speaker 2: was known, So it just lit a fire that said, wow, this.

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Speaker 1: Is just wrong.

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Speaker 2: Later I can find out that these were what I

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Speaker 2: would call pults. That it's not about being Buddhist, it's

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Speaker 2: not about being in yoga, which is another one of

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Speaker 2: the many cases that I have. It's not about the

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Speaker 2: belief system. It's about all of these markers of high

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Speaker 2: demand I control groups.

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Speaker 3: Right, And any belief system, any religion, any organization or

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Speaker 3: group period is capable of those dynamics.

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Speaker 4: Right. Any ideology which is so sad, it is so sad,

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Speaker 4: you'd think there'd be one that would be pure and

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Speaker 4: like no one could pervert it.

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Speaker 1: But it turns out now when there are people in

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Speaker 1: positions of power telling other people what to do with

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Speaker 1: their lives.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's just and when there's hope and ideology,

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Speaker 4: we are susceptible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So what are some of the typical kinds of

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Speaker 3: cases that you're taking on.

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Speaker 2: What does that usually look like? Well, we started out

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Speaker 2: taking on what we knew, which was sexual abuse in

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Speaker 2: spiritual communities, and that looked a lot like Holt like

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Speaker 2: activity where you have the one charismatic leader, you cannot

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Speaker 2: have any dissent, you cannot disagree, you must have you

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Speaker 2: must buy into. This person has the only true path,

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Speaker 2: you know, all of those things that we see in cults,

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Speaker 2: which leads to people having their agency taken away from them.

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Speaker 2: And from our perspective as a legal matter, being a

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Speaker 2: consent is not a possibility in those kinds of situations,

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Speaker 2: and so we began doing sexual assaults in tulk like

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Speaker 2: high demand communities. And then we started same kind of conduct,

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Speaker 2: but we started using the Federal Human Trafficking Act to

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Speaker 2: bring claims because it's based on coersion and of course coersion, manipulation,

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Speaker 2: all of those things are what we find in high

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Speaker 2: demand groups when we started with the Trafficking Act. Then

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Speaker 2: we have recently taken on some cases that are part

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Speaker 2: of the Trafficking Act. One part is sex trafficking and

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Speaker 2: the other part is forced labor. So we find in

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Speaker 2: a lot of again high demand communities that people are

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Speaker 2: being forced into labor as well, and so the law

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Speaker 2: doesn't give us huge number of tools to go after

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Speaker 2: these organizations. And so those are just a few of

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Speaker 2: the tools that we are using.

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Speaker 3: I want to ask you more about the specifics of

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Speaker 3: the law in a little bit because my mom ran

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Speaker 3: into this with our cult leader. But before that, I'm curious,

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Speaker 3: like I feel like when we think of sexual abuse

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Speaker 3: that's covered up within a religion, we typically think of

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Speaker 3: like the Catholic Church or the group that Megan grew

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Speaker 3: up in as another example two by twos, but you

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Speaker 3: came from this sort of like yogas spiritual, you know,

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Speaker 3: more New ag Eastern world, And I'm curious. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think I know the answer, but just to hear

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Speaker 3: you verbalize it, like does it function exactly the same,

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Speaker 3: Like do the cultural differences make things different in these

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Speaker 3: cases or is it kind of like same shit every time?

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Speaker 2: It is the same every time. I always think that

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Speaker 2: there's somebody wrote a playbook, you know, and just only

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Speaker 2: certain people have the playbook. They're the leader of these organizations.

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Speaker 2: The leaders have the playbook, and honestly, it looks very

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Speaker 2: much the same in all of it, whether we're talking

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Speaker 2: about again, it's not the content that they're delivering, it's

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Speaker 2: the structure and the abusive power within the organization.

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Speaker 3: Right, So like in the Catholic Church, it might be

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Speaker 3: a priest, yes, or a pastor or so, you know,

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Speaker 3: and I'm more of a Christian based organization, but in

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Speaker 3: one of these communities, it's like the Yogi.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it just reminds.

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Speaker 4: Me of a bigger version of an abusive relationship. It's

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Speaker 4: like the pathology around somebody who's abusive always seems to

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Speaker 4: be very similar. And this is just it on a

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Speaker 4: bigger scale, And so the playbook is the same because

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Speaker 4: it's somebody's insanity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, someone has special access to like.

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Speaker 3: The truth, right, And because they have that special access

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Speaker 3: to the truth, anything they say you must accept, even

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Speaker 3: if you feel uncomfortable with it. And then if you

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Speaker 3: begin to question that you're doing something wrong, there's something

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Speaker 3: wrong with you. You're not righteous enough, you're not spiritual enough,

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Speaker 3: you're not enlightened enough.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but to your point, like it is shocking to me,

380
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Speaker 4: how to their core, they're all almost exactly the same,

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Speaker 4: no matter if some are standing on their heads, some

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Speaker 4: are wearing Like the costumes are different, right, the costume,

383
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Speaker 4: the hair, the shoes, But like, at the core it

384
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Speaker 4: is the same.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yes, Now you asked an interesting question about

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Speaker 2: some of the differences. So I think that what happens

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Speaker 2: with some of the Eastern spiritual groups is that it

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Speaker 2: comes out of a tradition of having a swami or

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Speaker 2: a guru who is admired and who is all powerful

390
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Speaker 2: and to whom you must take an oath, an actual

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Speaker 2: oath of loyalty. And so I think that there's more

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Speaker 2: of a fertile ground for abuse of power in some

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Speaker 2: of those situations. In some of the more what should

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Speaker 2: I call them kind of like mainstream religions, there are

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Speaker 2: structures in place that kind of mitigate against abuses of power.

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Speaker 2: We had a case that was a young boy who

397
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Speaker 2: was assaulted in a Christian denomination and it wasn't what

398
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Speaker 2: I would consider to be a coup. It was, you know,

399
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Speaker 2: a bad, terrible thing that happened that people didn't they

400
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Speaker 2: didn't recognize that it was happening. But it wasn't the

401
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Speaker 2: same kind of thing as happens in high demand groups,

402
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Speaker 2: which is it's prevalent, it's accepted because there's no way

403
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Speaker 2: to speak out against it because you would be speaking

404
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 2: out against the person to whom you have given your

405
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Speaker 2: loyalty and you cannot do that. So that makes some

406
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Speaker 2: of the Eastern ideologies more susceptible, I think, to the

407
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Speaker 2: abuses of power.

408
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Speaker 4: Right, and when you have that invisible playbook of like karma,

409
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Speaker 4: because I'm very susceptible to that whole field of things.

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Speaker 1: You know, I like to meditate.

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Speaker 4: I like karma, and if somebody is telling me, you know,

412
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Speaker 4: oh this is your karma, you have bad karma, I'm like, fuck.

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Speaker 1: I don't want it.

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't want bad cart I don't want

415
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Speaker 3: to know.

416
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think.

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Speaker 2: I think on your website, I saw that you said

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Speaker 2: something like human beings we are we are almost intended

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Speaker 2: to want to believe in something bigger than ourselves. So

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Speaker 2: I'm a very big believer in the fact that any

421
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Speaker 2: of us, at any time could buy into these situations.

422
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Speaker 2: I know that people often say to me, well, that's terrible,

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Speaker 2: but you know that would never happen to me. You know,

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Speaker 2: I would never believe that. And and truly I understand

425
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Speaker 2: that point of view because some of the things are

426
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Speaker 2: really crazy that people are.

427
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Speaker 1: Told totally yeah right.

428
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Speaker 2: But that's what happens. There's a brain science behind how

429
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Speaker 2: we are lured in a little bit at a time,

430
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Speaker 2: and how our defenses get down, how we are love bombed,

431
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 2: how we'd come to depend on that feedback that happened

432
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Speaker 2: to anybody because we trust. We are beings who trust,

433
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Speaker 2: want to trust.

434
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Speaker 1: We want to trust.

435
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Speaker 3: We need purpose, we need meaning, we need community, and

436
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Speaker 3: when someone is offering it to us on a silver platter,

437
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 3: and it's so simple you have to do, is X,

438
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 3: Y and Z, like of course that we're going to

439
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 3: gravitate toward that, especially because they leave the crazy shit out.

440
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Speaker 1: At the beginning.

441
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, you brought up something interesting, which is the difference

442
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 3: between sexual assault or misconduct occurring versus it being part.

443
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: Of the system.

444
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: How do we determine whether something is like a you know,

445
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 3: as people will say, like bad apple situation, versus like

446
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 3: an endemic and like part of a systemic problem in

447
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 3: an organization.

448
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 2: From my perspective having been an employment lawyer, uh, in organizations,

449
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 2: every organization has a bad apple. I mean I went

450
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 2: out and did investigations in sexual harassment training and you know,

451
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 2: probably one hundred different organizations, probably more, and there's always

452
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: somebody who gets into trouble, you know, of some kind.

453
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 2: But the difference is that for organizations corporations in the

454
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: United States, I would not be saying that they have

455
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 2: a higher moral compass than other religious organizations, but they're

456
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 2: afraid of the law, right, you know, there's.

457
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: Money on the line. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

458
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 4: Well, and there's nobody holding their eternal damnation or their

459
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 4: karma over their heads, so they can just it's pretty

460
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 4: black and white, like money the law the end.

461
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 2: Yes, And while that doesn't always play out very well

462
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 2: in society, The reality is that if you're the president

463
00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 2: of a big fortune tan company and you CONDUCTORSLF like

464
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: some of these organizations that we're talking about, these high demand,

465
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 2: high control cult organizations, you're fired because the money of

466
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: the lawsuit and the money of the bad pr and

467
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: the money of all of that media is worse. And

468
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 2: so you are kind of forced into a corner perhaps

469
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 2: of doing the right thing. When you get into an

470
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: organization where you can't do the right thing, that's when

471
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 2: I think that it becomes endemic. So you know, or

472
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: you should have known that the swami or the guru

473
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 2: or the lama or the rimpoche is doing things like this,

474
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 2: but there there's no check and balance system to correct it.

475
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 3: Right, there's no HR department in your little yoga exactly yes.

476
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 4: Or any quote yeah, yeah. So people, I imagine have

477
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 4: built their entire narratives being in these groups, and now, yes,

478
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 4: you're confronting them with the knowledge that there is abuse

479
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 4: going on. What does that look like with people trying

480
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 4: to come to terms with it?

481
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 1: And what often happens.

482
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 2: Well, what often happens is that they cannot do anything.

483
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 2: They don't do anything, And I think that part of

484
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: that is because they cannot because if you have an

485
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 2: oath of loyalty, or you have this investment, which is

486
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 2: often more than just psychological. Sometimes it's money, sometimes it's

487
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 2: just laboring, sometimes it's belief, you actually cannot do anything

488
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 2: about it. And so that's often what it looks like.

489
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 2: From time to time there are organizations that say, wow,

490
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 2: you know, let us look at this, but not often

491
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: when the leader is involved. If there are teachers under

492
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 2: the leader who are involved, sometimes the organization will take

493
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 2: that route. They'll get rid of the teacher, but they

494
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: will not get rid of the culture or attack the

495
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: culture that's happening.

496
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 3: How do religious protections in America sometimes enable these groups

497
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 3: to not stop the abuse.

498
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: We have a really good question. We have the First Amendment.

499
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: It protects our ability to believe whatever we would like.

500
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: It's a very broad power that is there for religious organizations.

501
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 2: I think that the basic thing to understand about the

502
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: First Amendment is that it covers our beliefs. We can

503
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: believe in karma, we can believe that the Guru is

504
00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 2: all powerful, we can believe that he or she knows

505
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: the only true way. We can believe all of that,

506
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: but behavior is something different. The fact that you may

507
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: believe that it is. And this is something that I've encountered.

508
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: You know, things like if you have sex with the guru,

509
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: you will be on a faster path to enlightenment. Well,

510
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: you can believe that, but when you come to coerce people,

511
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 2: then we're beginning to talk about behavior, and that is

512
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: a different story altogether. Because it's illegal.

513
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 4: Yes, so it's like the belief meets the legal system

514
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 4: and then suddenly it's like that's all fun and games

515
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 4: for you to believe it in your head. But if

516
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 4: it's touching reality, Yeah, that's actionable, then that's problematic.

517
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: Interesting, Yes, that's exactly right. So the beliefs are fine,

518
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 2: but when you act on them, if it's if it's illegal,

519
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 2: I mean that's the general It has to be a

520
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: law that is I think the courts stay neutral. In

521
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: other words, it's not aimed at religions. So there have

522
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 2: been some cases in the United States, I think indigenous

523
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: religions having to do with the use of peyote or

524
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 2: other things like that. If we create a law that

525
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: is directed specifically at a religious group, then that's not good.

526
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: But if it's a neutrally applied law, like, you can't

527
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: secondly assault people, right right, then generally, that's the argument

528
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 2: that we're making in these cases, that you can believe

529
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: whatever you want, but your behavior has to meet societal standards,

530
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: legal standards.

531
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 4: So one of the things that I run into a

532
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 4: lot with the group that I grew up in is

533
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 4: that people go, yes, it's illegal, and yes this person

534
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 4: did something bad, but they're chosen by God.

535
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: They still need to spread this message.

536
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 4: And so while it's hard, we have to forgive them

537
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 4: so that they can keep doing this work and they'll

538
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 4: just never do it again.

539
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 2: Yes, I hear that all the time. And what I

540
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 2: would say to that is that, of course, is not

541
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: the philosophy of the legal system, right right, right. It's

542
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: the philosophy of a group that is making a kind

543
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: of you know, their weighing harm against some kind of

544
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: you know, of benefit. But that's not what the legal

545
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 2: system does, and I think it's wrong. Quite frankly. I

546
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 2: was years ago in in Eastern Europe and I saw

547
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: I went to a museum and the title of the

548
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: exhibit was Forgiveness is not a possibility. And I read

549
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: that and on the you know, on the banner outside

550
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 2: of the of the room, and I thought, wow, you know,

551
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: maybe that's true. You know, and since then I have

552
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,479
Speaker 2: had occasion to do somewhat deeper dive into this, and

553
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: I would say that from my perspective, forgiveness must be earned.

554
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: It is not on the on the our survivors, they're

555
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: not the ones who need to give forgiveness. The person

556
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: who has done this needs to have earned forgiveness, and

557
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: going back to doing the same thing over and over

558
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: again is not earning forgiveness in my.

559
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 3: View, right, which typically people who are engaging these behaviors

560
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 3: are doing.

561
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: It's not a one time thing.

562
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 2: I agree. I think it is often in my experience,

563
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: is considered kind of a perk of the job. It's

564
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: a you know, it's a it's a privilege that they have.

565
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that might even be the sole purpose that they're

566
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: doing it. In fact, in many cases I would assume

567
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: it is. Y.

568
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you bring up what the difference between belief

569
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 3: and committing a crime under the law, But one of

570
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 3: the areas that gets really hairy, because of course child

571
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 3: abuse is always objectively illegal. But you know, in the

572
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 3: case of my mom, and granted this was in like

573
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 3: two thousand ish, with our self proclaimed prophet. She was

574
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 3: sex trafficked while believing in this man, and after she

575
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 3: got out she went to the authorities and they basically

576
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 3: didn't believe in coercion, at least not at that time,

577
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 3: and they were like, you agreed to it. You're an adult,

578
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 3: Well why didn't you just leave? You weren't being physically

579
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 3: violently restrained, exactly, and therefore you consented, which, of course

580
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 3: betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of these dynamics. But

581
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 3: what pathway is there when there isn't violence involved for

582
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 3: an adult.

583
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: Well, you know there is. For example, there's so much

584
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: embedded in what you've said. Number one is that, no,

585
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: we don't understand coercion at all in our society, and

586
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: we don't have laws that are strictly about coercion. You

587
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: mentioned domestic violence. A few states are now adding coersion

588
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,359
Speaker 2: elements to their domestic violence law because you're exactly right,

589
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 2: domestic violence is so similar to cult dynamics, just the

590
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 2: cult dynamics is a bigger domestic group, and so coercion

591
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 2: is not well understood in our society and it is

592
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: not therefore represented very well in the law. We do have,

593
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: as I said, we have the Federal Trafficking Act, which

594
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 2: does have an element that recognizes that persion and fraud,

595
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 2: I would say that they negate consent. The best case

596
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 2: that I can give you to understand this and your

597
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: listeners as well, is if we think about Harvey Weinstein.

598
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 2: So Harvey Weinstein was I think he was found liable

599
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: under the civil Federal Trafficking Act. And when I read

600
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 2: that in the paper that was like twenty nineteen, maybe

601
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 2: I thought, WHOA, what did I miss about Harvey? Because

602
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 2: to me, trafficking was you know, putting women in the

603
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 2: back of a truck and crossing you know, a state

604
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 2: line of you know, a border. But that's not it

605
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 2: at all. Actually, Harvey Weinstein was committing sex trafficking because

606
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 2: he was poersing women into having sex with him through

607
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: again coercion or fraud. In his case, it was if

608
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 2: you have sex with me, I will put you in

609
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 2: contact with a big producer and this will make your career.

610
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 2: Those cases were upheld under the Sex Trafficking Act. Now,

611
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: if you looked at those situations, you would see that

612
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 2: if you were looking at a film of those incidents,

613
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: you would have said that the women consented because they

614
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 2: did not scream, they did not run, they did not

615
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 2: do anything. But we're coming, i think, along to a

616
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 2: better sense that not everything is consensual. You know, we

617
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 2: have the fawn fight fear. You know, our responses are

618
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 2: to freeze, for example, and if a person was holding

619
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 2: a gun to our head in a dark alley, we

620
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 2: would not be told that we were consenting because there

621
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 2: was a danger. What we don't fully understand under the

622
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 2: law is that that same psychological situation exists even when

623
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: there's not a gun to people's heads, that there's a

624
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: psychological danger in fighting back.

625
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 3: I want to just use the example of my mom again,

626
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 3: because in her case, she first of all, was begging

627
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 3: to not be kept in this place, was asking to

628
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 3: leave constantly and being told you have to do this.

629
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: Your salvation depends on it.

630
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 3: Yes, and you will not be with your children, the

631
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 3: most important thing in the world to her, her children

632
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 3: in the afterlife. You will be separated from them for

633
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 3: eternity if you do not obey and engage with these men.

634
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 3: And she ended up being physically abused by them as well.

635
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 3: Very horrific situation. But yeah, it's like on the outside

636
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 3: she's still living there why doesn't she just walk away

637
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 3: and drive away?

638
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: But it's like you literally are.

639
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 3: Going to lose your children forever, yes, or like burn

640
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 3: in hell forever. That's yeah, absolutely, And in his case

641
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 3: it was also fraud because he was claiming he was

642
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 3: a profit translating the sealed portion of the Book of

643
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 3: Mormon anyway.

644
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 4: And I think that a lot of people, you know,

645
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,879
Speaker 4: they look at the Harvey Weinstein thing and they say, yeah,

646
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 4: but they just wanted to get something. They wanted to

647
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 4: get a role. I'm watching the I'm reading the p

648
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 4: Diddy trials, so allegedly a lot of that things. You know,

649
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 4: they just wanted a record deal and they wanted this,

650
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 4: but they wanted that. And then with Lola's mom, well

651
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 4: that your mom was being like super threatened.

652
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: I get it. But these women just want wanted something.

653
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,399
Speaker 4: They just want something, and they don't understand the Well

654
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 4: number one allegedly with p didty that like you could

655
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 4: be murdered, you know, yes, And with Weinstein, you like,

656
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 4: who knows what could happen? And the cancelations and.

657
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, with Weinstein, yes, like you have Yes, there's

658
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 3: the dangling of the opportunity, but there's also the threat

659
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 3: that you're you will have no career.

660
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: If you don't.

661
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly. I think that's exactly what my response would be,

662
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 2: which is, it's not just that that people were going

663
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 2: after this because they wanted something, it's because if they

664
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 2: didn't do it, they were here in their career. And

665
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 2: that we have decided, apparently as a society, since it's

666
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 2: Congress that passes these laws under the Sex Trafficking Act,

667
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: we have decided as a society that that is not okay,

668
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 2: thank god, and it isn't okay now, it is n't.

669
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, how do you.

670
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 3: Prove that in court? Like, how do you prove that

671
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 3: coercion has taken place?

672
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 2: Well, one of the things that and I have it

673
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 2: right here are actually a piece of paper that I

674
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 2: look at all the time, which is called the Byte

675
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: model by Steve Hassan, who was himself a member of

676
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 2: a Caulton is a psychologist, and he has four quadrants

677
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 2: behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control. And

678
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 2: he has you know, like ten to fifteen elements under

679
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: each of them, and we look at them, and we

680
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: have our clients, you know, kind of look at what

681
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: was the coersion, the control that was exerted over me,

682
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 2: and then we in order to prove coercion under the

683
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: Trafficking Act, for example, then we have to introduce evidence

684
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 2: of all those elements of coercion so that a jury

685
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 2: can understand exactly what you were saying before was that

686
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 2: this wasn't someone's free will. They were not free. They

687
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 2: might not have been tied up, they may not have

688
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: been locked in, but psychologically they were not free. They

689
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 2: were being coerced.

690
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that law was passed.

691
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 4: What a pleasant yes, surprise, Yes, yeah, progress, yeah, actual progress.

692
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 3: I want to ask about cults that try to sue

693
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 3: people who leave. My guy has tried to sue me,

694
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 3: even he's an idiot, needed it wrong, And you know

695
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 3: we had connections to Nexium as well. My mom knuw

696
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 3: Keith Vanieri and so I knew some of his victims

697
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 3: and they were so litigious. They were like destroying people

698
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 3: and destroying the ability to speak out.

699
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: How often do you run into that, first of all.

700
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: All the time, all the time, right, because if you listen,

701
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 2: if you have that kind of power and you're abusing,

702
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: because you have to have a lot of power to

703
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 2: be able to abuse that power, then you are going

704
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: to try to use that power to keep people from

705
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 2: saying anything against you. So one of the big ones

706
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 2: that we see is defamation. So if you say anything

707
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: about a cult leader or you know, whoever it might be,

708
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: then we are going to sue you for defamation. That's

709
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 2: a very scary thing to have happened to you. And

710
00:41:53,960 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 2: so that is absolutely a technique that is used to

711
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 2: silence people from speaking out. But in some states New

712
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 2: York is one and there are others. I think California

713
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 2: is one as well, there are what are called anti

714
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 2: slap laws. So we have, again as a society, decided

715
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 2: that it is not good to silence people who want

716
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,280
Speaker 2: to say something about something that is in the public interest.

717
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: And so if you are sued for defamation and you

718
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 2: happen to have been speaking out in the public interest,

719
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 2: then some states have these anti slap laws, which means

720
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 2: that you can go on a faster track, because litigation

721
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 2: is unbelievably slow, but anti slap you go on a

722
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:56,399
Speaker 2: faster track and you can get attorney's fees. So it's

723
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 2: never good to be sued, and being threatened to be

724
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 2: sued for defamation does silence a lot of people understandably,

725
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: but there is a recognition that these things need to

726
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 2: be spoken of and that we should not be allowing

727
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 2: frivolous lawsuits.

728
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 3: Practically speaking, like, if somebody tries to sue me today

729
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 3: for speaking out about an experience that I had, but

730
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 3: I am in California where there are anti slab laws,

731
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 3: would I still have to hire an attorney? It's still

732
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 3: intimidation tactic because you still have to spend money, right, yes,

733
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 3: and technically if you win, they have to pay your

734
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 3: legal fees. But then it's like, how do you get

735
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 3: someone in the meantime Exactly, it's still a problem. Yeah.

736
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: It is better than nothing, as so many things are,

737
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 2: but it is none nonetheless still requires as you said,

738
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 2: you have to have the money to put it up upfront,

739
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 2: and then you have to hope that you win. Now,

740
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 2: I will tell you that once I was threatened with defamation,

741
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 2: and even though I'm a lawyer, I had an out

742
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 2: of body experience because it frightened me so badly. So

743
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 2: when I tell you that I understand it is frightening.

744
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 2: I know that from my first hand experience. And I

745
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: was about to publish a report on a spiritual cult

746
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 2: group and I got a lawyer and he said to me,

747
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 2: he said, I had done in this investigation. I was

748
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: going to publish the results of it. And he said

749
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: to me, do you believe that this happened? I said,

750
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 2: without question. You know, if you find, let's say, five

751
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 2: women who've been assaulted over five different time periods by

752
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 2: the same person in the same way, it's unlikely that

753
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 2: they're lying. It's unlikely that it's a coincidence. It's more

754
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: than likely true. And he said, then they may threaten you,

755
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 2: but they do not want to a bunch of people

756
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 2: under oath to find out that this is true. It's

757
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 2: a little bit cold comfort. It doesn't pay the bills.

758
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 2: But I find that I just talked to some two

759
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: women who were received a cease and desist letter about

760
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 2: something that they were writing. And it was a little

761
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 2: bit like a threat, but maybe not real.

762
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like they're assuming you'll back down because it

763
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 3: is a hassle and it is scary and it is expensive.

764
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 3: But like then they have to actually defend their case

765
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 3: in court exactly.

766
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 2: They also have to pay a lawyer, and they have

767
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 2: to put people under oath. And in the case where

768
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: I was threatened. I later came to find out what

769
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 2: I suspected, which is that they knew that this was true.

770
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 2: So if you know it's true, and they know it's true,

771
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 2: they do not want to put a bunch of people

772
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 2: under oath in front of a jury to prove defamation.

773
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 4: It's an interesting arc to watch these cult leaders confront

774
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 4: the legal system because even in their own brains, they

775
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 4: are such gods, and then you know, they suddenly, like

776
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 4: Keith Nary, the most surprised face I've ever seen on

777
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 4: a human man is him sitting in court like realizing

778
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 4: that other people aren't going to be like, well, you're

779
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 4: the smartest man in the world according to the Australia

780
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 4: and get this book of world records that you made

781
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 4: up and people being like, no, that's so illegal, going

782
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 4: to jail now, and they're like they're shocked because they've

783
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 4: built a world around this being true for them, where

784
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 4: they're like, I'm invincible.

785
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: Yes, it's a very interesting it is.

786
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 2: It's like a rock and the hard place.

787
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, because.

788
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 2: When you build you're absolutely right in my experience, when

789
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 2: you build that kind of thing around you that you

790
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 2: are all powerful. But then somebody else is actually more

791
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 2: powerful than.

792
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: You are, right, that the law.

793
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: Has more power over you than you could have possibly imagined.

794
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 2: You have to believe that these are these are difficult.

795
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: They talked about how.

796
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 4: In the speech, like, I know Keith thinks he's getting

797
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 4: out any day. Do you think, yeah, I'm reading his

798
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 4: mind now he can amazing or like no, you know,

799
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 4: I know, no, But I truly think a lot of

800
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 4: a lot of these self proclaimed super important people are like,

801
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 4: of course I'm getting out God.

802
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: I'm God's channel.

803
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, although he knew he was deceiving people, he didn't, I.

804
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: Know, like sometimes they just buy their own bullshit. No,

805
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: it's true, it's true.

806
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 2: They do. Absolutely, it's not I think in a certain way.

807
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 2: I don't know this for a fact. I'm just like,

808
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 2: you know, spinning this out here. But I think that

809
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 2: when you have that much power and you're abusing that

810
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 2: much power, you believe in your power because it's proven

811
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 2: to you every day.

812
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: True, you are more powerful.

813
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 3: True, and I'm able to manipulate this many people to

814
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 3: do what I want. I must be special and important

815
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,720
Speaker 3: in God, in a prophet and all the other things.

816
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: It's a soul.

817
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just a self contained circle that keeps living

818
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 4: and moving and moving and that and that's why the

819
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 4: lot is just this beautiful little stone to throw into

820
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 4: the channel and watch it.

821
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 3: Yes, which which isn't perfect yet not perfect, especially in

822
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 3: this era.

823
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 2: The criminal justice system is difficult. It is difficult for people,

824
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 2: and one of the reasons is there are a lot

825
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 2: of hurdles to get into it. So you mentioned your mother.

826
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 2: You know, your mother went to the police and was

827
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 2: you know, Well, so that's where the criminal justice system starts,

828
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 2: is with the police. So if you can't get the

829
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: police interested, you can't get through the door to the

830
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 2: next hurdle of the criminal justice system.

831
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 3: And police don't know shit about coercion let me tell

832
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 3: you no, or sexual assault.

833
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 2: No, that's right, they don't. And so you know, I

834
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 2: had a client who did try to go to the

835
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:25,720
Speaker 2: criminal justice route and was completely unsuccessful. She got through

836
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 2: the police part of it, but then they have to

837
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 2: convene a grand jury and then the perpetrator has to

838
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 2: be in the United States or else they have to

839
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 2: be extradited. I mean, these folks on the criminal justice

840
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 2: side have resource limitations. They can't take every case. They

841
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 2: have to feel that they can win it, and there

842
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 2: are lots of lots and lots of obstacles. It's the

843
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 2: same on the civil side in the sense that there

844
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 2: are lots of obstacles. But one of the main differences,

845
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: I think two main differences, maybe more three. I'm going

846
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 2: to get up to ten here in a minute. One

847
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 2: is that you have your own lawyer, so I represent

848
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 2: a human being. A district attorney does not represent a

849
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 2: human being. He or she represents the state, the government's

850
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 2: interest and often those are aligned, but they are sometimes not,

851
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 2: whereas civil lawyers represent their clients. So that's one thing.

852
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 2: You have your own lawyer. Another thing is that the

853
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 2: civil justice system allows you to sue not just the perpetrator,

854
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 2: but the organization that enabled the perpetrator, that probably silenced

855
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 2: you as the victim, who probably retaliated against you, shunned you,

856
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 2: threw you out if they were aware of what was

857
00:50:54,920 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 2: going on. There's potential of a lawsuit of negligence, example,

858
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 2: against the organization, and many of our clients they actually

859
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 2: feel that they were as harmed by the organizational response

860
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 2: as by the perpetrator who sexually assaulted them. The criminal

861
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 2: justice system, we can't send an organization to jail, and

862
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 2: that's the only thing that we have, so we can

863
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,359
Speaker 2: send Keith Ranieri to jail. But if I had to guess,

864
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 2: I would say that probably out there somewhere his organization

865
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 2: is still operating in some way. In the civil justice system,

866
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 2: you can sue the organization as well. The third difference

867
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 2: is that you get money. And as you mentioned before,

868
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 2: you know people are like, oh, well, she was only

869
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,240
Speaker 2: in it for the money. Well, I have news feeling

870
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 2: from these kinds of things. Takes money. And if you

871
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:57,359
Speaker 2: harm somebody's car, if you smash into it and you

872
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 2: do not have insurance, you pay money for the repair.

873
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 2: I think it's exactly the same thing here. You harm

874
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: people in so many ways with these spiritual deceptions. You

875
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 2: take away people's ability to trust you pray because it

876
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 2: costs money to repair.

877
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 3: I mean it literally, it does, because it is so expensive,

878
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,879
Speaker 3: first of all, to get a qualified specialized therapist. That's

879
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 3: not typically something that's covered by your insurance. Also, like

880
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 3: when you're emerging from a system like that, you're starting over,

881
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 3: you're often destabilized for quite some time, and getting your

882
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 3: life back together and back in order and figuring out

883
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 3: what you do now and who you are now, and

884
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 3: often without any resources like.

885
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 4: What we talk about a lot of like I thought

886
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 4: the world was going to end every day. Yeah, so

887
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 4: like I didn't plan for a future, like what do

888
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 4: I want to be? When I grew up, I was

889
00:52:54,280 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 4: like tomorrow the world's so No, it's a good's you know.

890
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 1: That's money.

891
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, money is the currency of justice. That's what the

892
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 2: partner of our law firm, and Oliverius says. Money is

893
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 2: the currency of justice. So that's what you have to do.

894
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 2: You have to come up with money to pay for

895
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 2: the harm that you knew about, right and that you allowed.

896
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's also like what else are you going to Like,

897
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure some people would just really want

898
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 3: there to be like changes implemented, you know, from the

899
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 3: top down, and like survivor assistance. Like I'm sure there

900
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,879
Speaker 3: are other things, but there aren't that many options for

901
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 3: like how to repair that's right.

902
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 2: And some of those things we are able to get

903
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 2: because you're right, a lot of a lot of our

904
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 2: clients at least would like to see change. One of

905
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 2: the reasons that they're coming forward is that they would

906
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 2: like to see no one else harmed in the same

907
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 2: way that they were harmed this but the system is

908
00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 2: geared toward money. And while we are sometimes successful in

909
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:06,320
Speaker 2: getting organizations to change, less so than I would have believed.

910
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 2: I would have thought that a no cost, low cost

911
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 2: change would be a no brainer for an organization. You

912
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 2: know that they would say, Okay, well, all right, so

913
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 2: maybe I won't pay you exactly this much money, but

914
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 2: you know I'll pay you this much and then I'll

915
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 2: make these changes. But often I see organizations who are

916
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 2: absolutely unwilling to change, even after having been sued and

917
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 2: having to settle lawsuits.

918
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so keiths and jail, let's go back to NEXIM.

919
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 4: I know that THEIRNXIM is still operating in some capacity.

920
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 4: So these are the enablers now taking over the organization. Like,

921
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 4: can you say a little bit about enablers, because you

922
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 4: kind of said earlier in the interview something really interesting

923
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 4: where it's like, yeah, there are people who are so

924
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 4: deep in this narrative that there isn't really an option

925
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,320
Speaker 4: out for them. So how do we hold these people

926
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 4: in our minds and in our hearts?

927
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 2: Well, So the enablers are a problem because, as you said,

928
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 2: if they're still out there with Nexium, for example, and

929
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 2: they are still running the organization. Are they making the

930
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 2: same kinds of mistakes that were made before? The only

931
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 2: thing that I can say is that if you have

932
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 2: been through and I feel like all of us have

933
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 2: been through Ranieri's criminal trial because we watched it on

934
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 2: us documentary, I would hope and I hope the same

935
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 2: thing in the cases that I have that having been

936
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 2: dragged through the justice system, that you are loath to

937
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 2: do the same thing again. So do you know what

938
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,919
Speaker 2: I mean? It's like you're on somebody's radar now they

939
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 2: know your names, and we would hope that they're not

940
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 2: doing the same thing, that they had some kind of

941
00:55:55,239 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 2: giant wake up call and they maybe are smarter now

942
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:01,720
Speaker 2: than they were before.

943
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:04,799
Speaker 3: And do you mean, like how much do they hold

944
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 3: responsibility versus.

945
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 4: The that answered a lot of it, and just you know,

946
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 4: how do I say it? Like I guess without going

947
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,760
Speaker 4: into too much detail. I've just seen firsthand how enabling

948
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 4: happens with followers when they are indoctrinated. And it's tricky

949
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:25,399
Speaker 4: because I know people still inside high control groups. How

950
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 4: do I make peace with some of the choices they

951
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 4: make in relation to something like enabling.

952
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 2: I have people come to me all the time. They

953
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 2: call me and say, my daughter is in this group,

954
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 2: and I'm sure it's a cult. How do I get

955
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 2: her out? How do I make her see that this

956
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:52,399
Speaker 2: is I demand high control, et cetera. And unfortunately the

957
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 2: answer is you probably can't. You probably can't make or see.

958
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 2: The best advice that I've heard, it doesn't come from me,

959
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 2: but from people who are smarter in terms of psychology

960
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 2: and dealing with survivors and with families, is that you

961
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 2: maintain contact, but you do not argue. Because we should

962
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 2: know this by now, right, Because if you've been like

963
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 2: me and probably spend a year or two arguing with

964
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 2: people on Facebook.

965
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 1: Totally yep, still doing it.

966
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 2: And then someone like your husband says to you, why

967
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 2: are you arguing with people you don't know on Facebook?

968
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 2: And you say, oh, yeah, no, good reason for that.

969
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 2: Arguing does not change people's minds. And so what the

970
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 2: experts say is maintain contact because maybe someday something will change,

971
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 2: and if you're still out there maintaining contact, then that's

972
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 2: the most important thing.

973
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 4: So even if these people are technically enablers unconsciously, yeah, yeah.

974
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 2: You know, because I mean enablers is a big word,

975
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 2: isn't it. I mean enabling. We're enabling if we if

976
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,919
Speaker 2: we send money to an organization, we're enabling what they do.

977
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 2: We are enabling if we go to a public talk

978
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 2: that somebody gives who happens to be. So there are

979
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 2: many different levels I think of enabling, and so I

980
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 2: think just being in you may have to let that go, right,

981
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, because really you don't have any control

982
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 2: over it anyway.

983
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 1: Now learn that the hard way. It's true, It's true.

984
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it is Again, there is that

985
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 4: very strong argument kind of in our Facebook group, our

986
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 4: ex Facebook group, of like you have to cut everyone

987
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 4: up they're enabling and like it's illegal and you can't

988
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 4: do it anymore. And then other people being like, no,

989
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 4: they haven't seen the light yet and we have to

990
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:55,439
Speaker 4: stay in relationship.

991
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 1: And it is just like a complicated.

992
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 2: I don't think there's any right answer, right, yeah, you know,

993
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 2: if they're enabling something that is illegal, then they got

994
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 2: to go. Yeah, then maybe that's a different story. But

995
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 2: enabling an organization that we know to be a cult

996
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 2: and that we know are ruining people's lives through their

997
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 2: beliefs but not their behavior. Maybe we just have to

998
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 2: let that go.

999
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think enabling is there's a spectrum of enabling.

1000
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 3: Like attending a church service and saying I still believe

1001
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 3: this church is good is very, very different from saying, Okay,

1002
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 3: here's the door, now go in there and do the

1003
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:36,919
Speaker 3: sex thing.

1004
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, like those are not the same thing.

1005
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 3: And I think when that is turned into a binary

1006
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 3: and painted into as like a black and white thing

1007
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 3: of like, if you have any association with this group whatsoever,

1008
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 3: you are enabling them and enabling abuse like that isn't

1009
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 3: exactly accurate, right, There are shades of it.

1010
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 1: That's my perspective anyway.

1011
00:59:56,120 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 2: You know, I think a lot also about boundary and

1012
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 2: about having your own boundary but allowing other people. Again,

1013
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 2: when we're talking about enabling, not as enabling a criminal

1014
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 2: activity or illegal activity, but you know, drawing the boundary

1015
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 2: for yourself of where you want to be in it,

1016
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 2: but then letting go of thinking that we're going to

1017
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 2: change people's minds because we most often do not never ever.

1018
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:29,200
Speaker 3: I know it's so intimately that that is true, But

1019
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 3: every time my brain's like, but if I say it

1020
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 3: in just the right way. Then they'll finally understand, you know, like, well,

1021
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 3: why are.

1022
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 1: We so convinced of that?

1023
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 3: Like if I just am a verbal ninja, then I

1024
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 3: can like say exactly the right thing, no, never, never ever, Well,

1025
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 3: what would you say, are some warning signs to look

1026
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 3: out for and spiritual movements and self improvement groups, churches,

1027
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 3: any of it.

1028
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing that comes to my mind, and

1029
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 2: probably just because of my own perspective, is that somebody

1030
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 2: who tells you that they have the only truth is

1031
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 2: a problem because I think that when we exist in

1032
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 2: a very big world with a lot of wisdom traditions,

1033
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 2: that there is no one truth that's right for everyone.

1034
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:21,959
Speaker 2: So I think that that's kind of a number one thing.

1035
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 2: I think the second thing, and I see this in

1036
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 2: so many of the groups that we litigate against, is

1037
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 2: that you cannot have a dissenting opinion. So if you

1038
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 2: are in a group that you are not permitted to

1039
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 2: have a dissenting opinion, or it is set up and

1040
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:46,440
Speaker 2: structured in such a way that you feel manipulated into

1041
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 2: hiding your dissenting opinion, those are two, I would say.

1042
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 2: The third one is almost always an authoritarian, charismatic leader

1043
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 2: and with those three things, I think that there should

1044
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 2: be a red flag. And you might not know the

1045
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:06,439
Speaker 2: authoritarian at first. They might just seem really charming. Yeah,

1046
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 2: like they know a lot of stuff. That's the charismatic part, right.

1047
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1048
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 2: But by the time people start telling you who you

1049
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 2: have to be with what decisions you need to make

1050
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 2: in your life, then you're talking about someone who's authoritarian,

1051
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 2: who says this is the only right answer. You cannot

1052
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:31,400
Speaker 2: disagree with it, you know, Then you're in an authoritarian system.

1053
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:33,200
Speaker 1: Well, how much do I need to pay you to

1054
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 1: come live with me?

1055
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 4: Tell me what to do every day and how to think,

1056
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 4: because I feel like you.

1057
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 1: Can fix me. I want her to be your authoritarian.

1058
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 4: I want you to bed that's right, and I will

1059
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 4: tell you everything that you need to do right.

1060
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 1: In your life.

1061
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 4: I'm so grateful for all the work that you've done,

1062
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 4: and it's just so important, and you're such a wonderful

1063
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 4: voice in this space.

1064
01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: So thank you for coming on and for all the

1065
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 1: work you. Thank you.

1066
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 2: I have to say that it is and that all

1067
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:06,760
Speaker 2: of the lawyers who work with me feel the same way.

1068
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 2: It is an honor to be able to help people

1069
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 2: in this way and so I appreciate your kind words.

1070
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 2: I appreciate your inviting me on for this wonderful conversation

1071
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 2: that we had today, and we're all just going to

1072
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 2: keep working.

1073
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

1074
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 3: Before we wrap up here, I wanted to ask you,

1075
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 3: are there any resources that you would recommend for people

1076
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 3: who need legal help or just like some support.

1077
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 2: I want to send people to the Byte model. I'm

1078
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:37,040
Speaker 2: going to make a note of this and I can

1079
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 2: send it to you. I think that it's helpful for

1080
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 2: people to look at the elements of coercion and identify them.

1081
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 2: That's one resource. There are a number of therapists who work.

1082
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 2: As you said, you know, this is stuff that's expensive,

1083
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 2: which is why money is helpful. But Dan Shaw, Rachel Bernstein,

1084
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 2: or two therapists that I'm aware of, Steve Hassan, who

1085
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 2: worked with trauma cult survivors.

1086
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 3: I was curious, actually, and I meant to ask you

1087
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 3: this earlier. Is there anyone doing pro bono work in

1088
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 3: the cults or high control group space?

1089
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 2: Not that I know of. Now. Having said that, what

1090
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 2: I will say is that a number of large law

1091
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 2: firms do pro bono work. Of course, many of them

1092
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 2: are now doing pro bono work for Trump, So they

1093
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 2: may not be available to help actual people, but there

1094
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:31,919
Speaker 2: are sometimes I have been able to find. I found

1095
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 2: a lawyer pro bono once on a defamation a woman

1096
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 2: who was threatened with defamation if she used her name

1097
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 2: in a media report and she said exactly what you said,

1098
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 2: which is you know, I wouldn't have the money to

1099
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 2: be able to defend it even if I could get

1100
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:51,439
Speaker 2: out on anti slab. So I found a lawyer who

1101
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 2: was willing to defend her pro bono because he would

1102
01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 2: get the lawyer's fees at the end of it, right,

1103
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 2: So in the anti spe the lawyer would get paid.

1104
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 2: So sometimes that's possible. Okay, There's a woman whose name

1105
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 2: is Nancy Floyd Floy and if you look her up,

1106
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 2: it's called Heartwood h. Eart Wood. She runs a survivors

1107
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 2: network for people who have been abused in Buddhist communities.

1108
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 2: She runs a conference every year for survivors and they

1109
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 2: meet online remotely and that's free.

1110
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 3: So just to summarize what you said, there isn't anyone

1111
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 3: explicitly doing pro bono work in the cold space. However,

1112
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 3: if you have a really strong case to defend against defamation,

1113
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 3: you would most likely qualify to have your legal fees paid,

1114
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 3: in which case you might be able to find a

1115
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:49,919
Speaker 3: lawyer who.

1116
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 2: Will that's right exactly, you might be able to find

1117
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 2: a lawyer who would do it pro bono.

1118
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 1: So you got to make a bunch of calls.

1119
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:58,040
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, yeah.

1120
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:00,160
Speaker 4: Do it anyway, Yeah, do it anyway.

1121
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Carol. And do you have a

1122
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 3: website if somebody wants to hire you or contact you.

1123
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:11,160
Speaker 2: Yes, of course it's mc allister Olivarius and it's in London.

1124
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 2: The main office is in London, but my practice is

1125
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 2: in the United States.

1126
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 3: Amazing, Thank you, thank you big, thank you to Carol

1127
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 3: for joining us today. Megan, you mentioned something about the

1128
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:27,880
Speaker 3: two by Twos, the group that you grew up in,

1129
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 3: and their legal sort of strategies.

1130
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean you asked me, would you ever sue

1131
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 4: the two by Twos at some point I think or

1132
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 4: somebody did, and they are very smart because they don't technically,

1133
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 4: I mean, if you dig a little deeper, they do,

1134
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 4: but they don't really have an organization or a name

1135
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:50,200
Speaker 4: or anything. So there's there hasn't been any money paid

1136
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 4: to victims. It's all very individual court cases. And we

1137
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:58,440
Speaker 4: were taught growing up, or those who who enter the

1138
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 4: group are taught. We don't have a name because Jesus

1139
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:02,280
Speaker 4: didn't have a name for his group. And it's a

1140
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 4: very biblical, beautiful, holy thing, and in the end it's

1141
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:08,280
Speaker 4: more of a holy shit.

1142
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:09,240
Speaker 1: I can't sue you.

1143
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 3: But the money has to be going somewhere. What money, Oh,

1144
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 3: their money, God to the overseers. M the overseers are

1145
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 3: individually getting sued for like handling abuse cases.

1146
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, but they're not getting sued for who knows where

1147
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 4: that money is.

1148
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 1: It's like cash. M Oh my god.

1149
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1150
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:34,760
Speaker 4: Wow, they're not even they're not even not taxes a church.

1151
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 4: They're just not even counting it as a church at all, right, right, yeah, wow, fascinating.

1152
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 4: One guy got caught, like one overseer got caught with

1153
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 4: so much money in cash, like going over the Canadian border.

1154
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 4: And they'll just tell you, of course that it's all

1155
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:51,160
Speaker 4: like on the up and up, and it's to spread the.

1156
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:57,959
Speaker 1: Gospel, babe, to who to who? Who's joining us? Right right?

1157
01:07:58,280 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 1: Who is?

1158
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:02,959
Speaker 3: Because nobody joined they're already in it. Nobody's doing it's always.

1159
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 4: A random letter and it's always like semi racist and

1160
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 4: like not a mean way, but it's like a Chinese

1161
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 4: couple is joining us in gospel meeting.

1162
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 1: It's like, why don't you just say a couple, right?

1163
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 4: Why are they always like from another country, probably lonely

1164
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 4: and lost?

1165
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 1: Like why are you really spelling it out for us?

1166
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 3: That?

1167
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 1: Okay?

1168
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:26,760
Speaker 3: In fairness, I think all white people over fifty do that.

1169
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:31,719
Speaker 3: But sure, okay, definitely members of my family.

1170
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:34,760
Speaker 4: And I mean, I guess it's better than them not

1171
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,320
Speaker 4: wanting people that are not white there.

1172
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:42,599
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, I guess, I guess. But it's like they're they're.

1173
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:48,000
Speaker 4: Not joining a b stop stop it right now, like

1174
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:49,720
Speaker 4: I'm gonna stoptop there.

1175
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:56,320
Speaker 1: Also just stop it. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know,

1176
01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 1: but people are banding together.

1177
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 4: Now we have a merry band of soldiers, but no

1178
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:06,840
Speaker 4: organization so to speak, to go up against.

1179
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:10,519
Speaker 3: That's really really interesting. I mean, I'll be so curious

1180
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:11,719
Speaker 3: to see how it all plays out.

1181
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 1: Me too.

1182
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,760
Speaker 3: So if you're starting a cult, don't have a name,

1183
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:17,599
Speaker 3: is what I'm gathering.

1184
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:22,320
Speaker 1: Do not write down money, I need doctor and everybody.

1185
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 1: Burn every letter and you'll have the two by twas.

1186
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:30,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, also separately, not related to the two by twos

1187
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 3: I'm gonna throw this in here.

1188
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:32,960
Speaker 1: I talked to my.

1189
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:37,639
Speaker 3: Mom about the legal element of the cult community, and

1190
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,160
Speaker 3: she recommended something that I did just try for California

1191
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:43,640
Speaker 3: and see what happened, and it actually was interesting. You

1192
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 3: can look up your state bar association and often they

1193
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 3: will have a directory of pro bono attorneys.

1194
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 1: Cool.

1195
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:53,439
Speaker 3: So when you look up California's pro bono attorney list,

1196
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:57,759
Speaker 3: often it will intersect with like some specific human rights

1197
01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 3: org or civil rights org. But I I think in

1198
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:03,719
Speaker 3: many cases it's a women's rights issue, with children's rights issue,

1199
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 3: with disability justice, you know, like often those things could

1200
01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:09,720
Speaker 3: intersect with the cult. So always worth looking at if

1201
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 3: you are in a legal situation. Also, she recommended to

1202
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:17,559
Speaker 3: look up previous cases against cults. There are people who

1203
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:19,599
Speaker 3: are kind of known for this. There's a man named

1204
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:22,960
Speaker 3: Roger Hoole who has sued the FLDS before, for example, Like,

1205
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:25,200
Speaker 3: even if they can't take the case on, they might

1206
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:26,240
Speaker 3: know someone who can.

1207
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 1: That's dope. I love that.

1208
01:10:28,200 --> 01:10:31,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, So those are other tips because it again, like

1209
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 3: we say in the episode, like it's really really scary

1210
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 3: if someone threatens you with defamation, but you are not alone.

1211
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:40,080
Speaker 3: There are people out there who will be able to

1212
01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 3: help you or help direct you.

1213
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:42,880
Speaker 1: It's like the cult Avengers.

1214
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:47,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, anyway, we'll put all the links, all the relevant

1215
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 3: links into the show notes.

1216
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:53,560
Speaker 4: Yay, Thank you guys so much for listening to another episode.

1217
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:55,840
Speaker 4: We can't wait to see you again next week and

1218
01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:58,799
Speaker 4: does always remember to follow your gut, watch out for red.

1219
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 3: Flags, and never ver trust me.

1220
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production hosted by me

1221
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:11,960
Speaker 1: Lola Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is G. Holly.

1222
01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:14,080
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1223
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:17,519
Speaker 4: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

1224
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:18,679
Speaker 4: is Patrick Kottner.

1225
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:21,680
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly Ambert Church.

1226
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:25,720
Speaker 4: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark

1227
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:26,719
Speaker 4: and Danielle Kramer.

1228
01:11:26,960 --> 01:11:29,240
Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

1229
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:31,519
Speaker 3: or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

1230
01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:34,920
Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1231
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:38,280
Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1232
01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:41,280
Speaker 3: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1233
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:42,960
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.