Speaker 1: Hi, check, Hello everybody.
Speaker 2: Hi Jen hie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you can ask me just about anything you
Speaker 1: want relative to the music and the show.
Speaker 2: Uh, certainly.
Speaker 1: Uh, I'm happy to be thank you for inviting you today,
Speaker 1: and and uh and talk about something that really is unfair,
Speaker 1: and it's unfair to the people we care about the most,
Speaker 1: which is our fans.
Speaker 3: Well you I want to hear it. Yeah, tell tell
Speaker 3: me everything I want to hear.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let me start with with one element
Speaker 1: about the show.
Speaker 2: And and I think you guys.
Speaker 1: Certainly Tory and and and Jenny can corroborate this. Amy
Speaker 1: is that the first five seasons that I was there,
Speaker 1: I did basically five different television shows.
Speaker 2: Wow. The first show was called The Walsh Family Show.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Second show was called High School Hijinks as we
Speaker 1: just threw ball in the era, did twenty nine episodes.
Speaker 1: The third show was called Senior Year Yeah. The fourth
Speaker 1: show was College Yeah. And the fifth show was Goodbye Brenda,
Speaker 1: Hello Tiffany.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: There were five completely different television shows with the same
Speaker 1: characters but with different vibes, yeah, goals, different budgets. And
Speaker 1: that's where we should start. On season one and two,
Speaker 1: we had the lowest license fee in network television being
Speaker 1: working for the Fox Broadcasting Company, which really at that
Speaker 1: point was a broadcasting service, not in network. Yeah, as
Speaker 1: I used to tease Peter Chernan a lot, anytime we
Speaker 1: asked you to pay for something, you became a broadcast service,
Speaker 1: and anytime something controversial you were a network. You know,
Speaker 1: you know. But we did not have enough money, and
Speaker 1: you guys can remember, you know, some of the scenes
Speaker 1: that we had. We had a lot of montages, and
Speaker 1: we had long scenes.
Speaker 2: With very few setups.
Speaker 1: Unlike the movies that you've been in your TV that
Speaker 1: had much more production value. We didn't have that.
Speaker 3: So I had no idea.
Speaker 5: We thought you guys just liked writing those putting those
Speaker 5: in that it was a choice.
Speaker 1: Your father would roll his eyes every time I would
Speaker 1: say to him, Aaron form follows function, Man, if we
Speaker 1: don't have any money, we got to do it this way,
Speaker 1: and he would Yes, Amy.
Speaker 3: Here's my question just so people can understand. So, like,
Speaker 3: especially since we were talking about Aaron, so compared to Dynasty,
Speaker 3: Love Boat, Fantasy Island was nine two one zero, like
Speaker 3: like Peanuts, compared to those shows.
Speaker 2: Half well from a budget.
Speaker 1: Listen, we you know, for of all, I want to
Speaker 1: acknowledge to your fans that listen to your podcast week
Speaker 1: and week, this one's a little different than most of
Speaker 1: them because the business it becomes dominant, and especially when
Speaker 1: you're talking about music, but his music is not free.
Speaker 1: But yes, I mean, you know they used to call
Speaker 1: and I'm sure you mentioned on this show before ABC
Speaker 1: stood for Aaron's broadcasting company in the years that I
Speaker 1: started in the business in nineteen seventy seven, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: moved it through to two thousand and seven. That was
Speaker 1: my run of television. But you know, the.
Speaker 2: Network business was a very flush.
Speaker 1: Business, and Aaron, you know, was a very cost oriented producer.
Speaker 2: He didn't like to waste.
Speaker 1: Money, but at the same time, when he wanted to
Speaker 1: spend it, there was really no holding him back on that.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, someone, now.
Speaker 3: This is super interesting. Okay, keep going. So you're you're
Speaker 3: talking about so, you know.
Speaker 1: Seas So the idea being that how would we have
Speaker 1: a production that would appeal to our core audience, which
Speaker 1: was teenagers, which was kind of a brand new thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, Fox was experimenting with a lot of different things,
Speaker 1: and if you look back to what Fox had its
Speaker 1: first season.
Speaker 2: It wasn't teenage kind of stuff. It was really some
Speaker 2: high end talent.
Speaker 1: George C. Scott, the famous actor. It was sitcom. James
Speaker 1: Brooks was there doing Tracy Omen which led to The Simpsons.
Speaker 3: Was twenty one Jump Street toward the beginning and twenty
Speaker 3: one Jump Street.
Speaker 2: Could you bring that up?
Speaker 1: Because I was going to bring that one up because
Speaker 1: twenty one Jump Street had a lot of pop music,
Speaker 1: and that so much pop music that they actually put
Speaker 1: the credits of what songs they were using on during
Speaker 1: the end credits.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's sort of familiar to me.
Speaker 5: Wait, can I ask that question? Like back back then,
Speaker 5: what were budgets like, what was an appropriate budget for
Speaker 5: a million dollar the shohow?
Speaker 2: Yeah for whom? No, The budget that we proposed to make.
Speaker 1: For the show was a was just over a million
Speaker 1: dollars and that was rejected by uh Duke he By,
Speaker 1: by the you know, the person who really would talk
Speaker 1: about the mudget and that so our original license fee
Speaker 1: from Fox was about seven hundred thousand dollars and and.
Speaker 5: It was Ali mcbeil on then.
Speaker 1: Later break Break My Heart. There were two great pilots
Speaker 1: one year for Fox. One was written and produced by
Speaker 1: David Kelly called Ally mcbeil and the other was written
Speaker 1: produced by me called Soulmates and Alan McBeal one and Salmates.
Speaker 1: He ever, did not get its ten year run. But anyway,
Speaker 1: that's water under the bridge.
Speaker 3: Wait, since we're going there. This is very interesting. So
Speaker 3: if the network pays essentially like Spelling Productions, seven hundred
Speaker 3: thousand dollars to make this show, do you have to
Speaker 3: make it for five hundred thousand to have profit?
Speaker 1: Oh? Well, the other amount that the Spelling company put
Speaker 1: in I even think it was lower. I think it
Speaker 1: was like Court, closer to five hundred thousand dollars. But
Speaker 1: they were smart enough company and had a big enough
Speaker 1: foreign sales that they added that money into it, and
Speaker 1: that was about one hundred and fifty more. But we
Speaker 1: were one hundred to one hundred and fifty to two
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars less than any other television series. The
Speaker 1: other thing that you have to remember from seasons one
Speaker 1: and two, which I know Tory and Jenny most likely remember,
Speaker 1: is that our crew was not a union crew.
Speaker 2: It was a non union crew.
Speaker 1: And that was a real gamble both on Fox Broadcasting
Speaker 1: Company and Spelling being a willing participant in that to
Speaker 1: go and try to effectively make a low budget television
Speaker 1: and an effect break the Alliance for Television Studio Engineers
Speaker 1: Flatsy the below the line.
Speaker 2: That was the plan, and that is.
Speaker 1: Really the only reason that I'm talking to you both
Speaker 1: today so many years later.
Speaker 2: Because Aaron could not and Duke, they were the Spelling production.
Speaker 2: They had great relationships with unions, they did not put
Speaker 2: their name on. They could not put their name on
Speaker 2: the show. So instead they found a company to work
Speaker 2: with propaganda of course, the CIA Company, and they worked
Speaker 2: together and I and since Aaron couldn't put his name on,
Speaker 2: he had to find someone who would here, and fortunately
Speaker 2: he high me.
Speaker 1: Why he hired me, by the way, is because of
Speaker 1: I did a lot of movies for television. That's how
Speaker 1: I really got by it. There were a new series
Speaker 1: saying Elsewhere in Northern Exposure before I came to nine
Speaker 1: o two and oh. But pretty much I wrote movies
Speaker 1: for television. I wrote movies about women, I wrote movies
Speaker 1: about kids. And you know, Tory, your dad. He's a
Speaker 1: complex human being, but boy did he could he scrutinize
Speaker 1: a problem and figure out where he would have to land.
Speaker 1: You look, you know everybody. You go back to season
Speaker 1: one and the older fans who remember that there was
Speaker 1: Ferris Bueller's Day Off and French Prince of bel Air
Speaker 1: and Parker Lewis Can't lose on the Fox Broadcasting Company,
Speaker 1: which is a show that they loved as opposed to us.
Speaker 1: They had to get used to and and uh and
Speaker 1: there were others as were whole high from Disney, and
Speaker 1: Aaron looked at that lineup and went, hey, I cannot compete.
Speaker 1: They all want me to be MTV. I am not MTV.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to be MTV. I know how
Speaker 1: to be good television. And he had that in his
Speaker 1: background with a show from the sixties called Mod Squad,
Speaker 1: which was one of the few things I watched when
Speaker 1: I was a teenager. It was Mod Squad, the Smothers
Speaker 1: Brothers in Mission Impossible. Those were my show.
Speaker 3: When you say Aaron's name wasn't on the show, Aaron's
Speaker 3: name wasn't on the show.
Speaker 1: For the first five seasons. Not as an executive producer.
Speaker 1: I was the sole executive producer for two seasons. In
Speaker 1: their season, he made a deal with Darren Starr to
Speaker 1: get his name as an executive producer as well, but
Speaker 1: it was front credits, not end credits. And I stayed
Speaker 1: on the show for the two years of college. I
Speaker 1: did one hundred and forty three hours of television in
Speaker 1: five seasons. That's cramming six and a half years of
Speaker 1: television into five seasons. Boy with the writers guild like
Speaker 1: orders like that right now? Huh?
Speaker 2: But we you know it was a very hard working.
Speaker 1: Show, and and I knew about two thirds of the way,
Speaker 1: half of the way through season five that and I
Speaker 1: would tell this to Karen. You know this show is
Speaker 1: really trying to kill me. Karen, I got even you
Speaker 1: can't do this anymore. This is the best thing that's
Speaker 1: happened to us creatively and financially. But I can't do it.
Speaker 1: I can feel that. And I and just too hard work,
Speaker 1: too small a staff, too many episodes. I leave the
Speaker 1: show in May, and at forty three years old, I
Speaker 1: have a heart attack in the first week of July.
Speaker 3: Tory and Jenny, do you feel that way? I mean,
Speaker 3: I know you love this show, right, but do you
Speaker 3: feel like it worked you really hard?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 4: Yes, yes we did. We're both nodding our heads. Yes,
Speaker 4: but we had nothing. It was gruel and we we
Speaker 4: We've got to go home. At the end of the night,
Speaker 4: you guys had to write.
Speaker 5: Are you're talking about check? Like, Jen, do you remember
Speaker 5: this about it being non union the first two seasons.
Speaker 4: I remember the non union now he's bringing it up definitely,
Speaker 4: because that was a big hubbub around when the show
Speaker 4: decided to go union.
Speaker 5: I can't remember my part. I remember the propaganda. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 5: is that where that they came in?
Speaker 2: Yes, And it was a very big thing. You guys.
Speaker 1: You guys were waiting in the wings when they were
Speaker 1: having their meeting and to vote, and you know, they
Speaker 1: were having the conversation among themselves and the only people
Speaker 1: in the room who weren't union were myself and and
Speaker 1: Paul Wagner, who had just come on as the line
Speaker 1: producer at that point, and we uh and you know uh,
Speaker 1: and Shannon had actually taken the microphone and urged everybody
Speaker 1: to go on strike, that they deserved more money that
Speaker 1: they did in these hours were too long. But blah blah,
Speaker 1: blah blah. And I got on the night and said, well,
Speaker 1: you know, just realize that we are a terribly low
Speaker 1: rated show. We've only had two three episodes airing by
Speaker 1: that point, even though they were really good.
Speaker 2: Hello, but we were low aired, so what did it matter?
Speaker 1: And I said, if you vote to strike, I can't
Speaker 1: guarantee you that we'll be working tomorrow.
Speaker 2: And we won by one vote. Well, if one vote
Speaker 2: did they come back to work.
Speaker 1: You cut to season two and they decided to try
Speaker 1: to go on strike again and go on it become
Speaker 1: a union television show. And I remember Paul Wagner, my
Speaker 1: dear friend and really my production partner and all of this,
Speaker 1: saying to them, look, if you go union, that means
Speaker 1: that we can hire anybody we want for any job.
Speaker 2: We're not struck to that.
Speaker 1: And they passed it by one. It passed by one,
Speaker 1: and the next year that came back. Your friend, You
Speaker 1: guys friends, remember that he was such a nice guy.
Speaker 1: And I know is Eric Lopez Eric Lopezeah the golfer
Speaker 1: and Jason he was if you remember from seasons two
Speaker 1: to three, he was the only one who was brought back,
Speaker 1: and I think it was because he was Jason's golf partner.
Speaker 3: Tell you the truth, Okay.
Speaker 2: He hung out with you guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have another question for you, Chuck, so well,
Speaker 3: okay two actually too. So as shows go, and we're
Speaker 3: talking season one ish before it blew up that summer, right, Sure,
Speaker 3: were they Tory Jenny, the whole cast paid significantly lower
Speaker 3: than say, twenty one Jump Street when they started, like, oh.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I don't know that.
Speaker 1: If they were paid being paid, they were being paid
Speaker 1: lower than had the show been on ABC.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, yes, I can't.
Speaker 1: Judge from the other, but I didn't know bringing since
Speaker 1: you brought up Judge Street, and since I know the
Speaker 1: focus on this is music that we that we knew
Speaker 1: that if we that if we did some music and
Speaker 1: we had the propaganda people, and let's understand something about propaganda.
Speaker 1: They were the hippus people in town. They were doing
Speaker 1: all the music videos for for Madonna. They had the
Speaker 1: great director David Fincher under contract, they had Michael Bay
Speaker 1: under contract. They were just they were and they had
Speaker 1: and they were doing twin Peaks the production right, right,
Speaker 1: so come on.
Speaker 2: They were They were really something else.
Speaker 1: And they had brought us some people to say, these
Speaker 1: people know what the hip songs are and you can
Speaker 1: license them and they'll be your your your company.
Speaker 3: Before you start talking about this sixties episode that we
Speaker 3: really want to talk about. Of the of you know,
Speaker 3: how you describe like your your your time on the show,
Speaker 3: how it was five different seasons. Do you have a
Speaker 3: favorite of those? Of the different incarnations the Walsh family,
Speaker 3: the high school years, senior year college, the Tiffany years,
Speaker 3: Do you have a favorite?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, there was you know, uh, sure I do.
Speaker 1: But I love that all my children. I love them all,
Speaker 1: and I love things that you all did in them.
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's you know, some episodes worked better
Speaker 1: than others in this. But I again go back to this.
Speaker 1: I was hired to do basically bring a movie of
Speaker 1: the week sensibility exploring teen issues. Yeah and so, and
Speaker 1: we were in for a big surprise when we turned
Speaker 1: in when Darren Starr and I and our staff turned
Speaker 1: in our first proposal for the first six episodes, and
Speaker 1: they were all rejected, Wow, single one of them rejected
Speaker 1: because they did not want a serialized television show.
Speaker 2: They wanted individual episodees that each had a beginning, middle,
Speaker 2: and end, which at that point was because it was
Speaker 2: better for syndication, right, you know, the soaps and and
Speaker 2: I'm sure this came from, you know, the experience that
Speaker 2: your dad had with Dynasty and the others just didn't
Speaker 2: play as well when it wasn't first run. And by
Speaker 2: the way, that was what nine o two and zero
Speaker 2: didn't play as well when it wasn't first run. So
Speaker 2: because of that, Barry Diller said, let's bring them back
Speaker 2: in the summer.
Speaker 1: Let's do twenty eight episodes. Let's just do more and
Speaker 1: more because the kids want to watch new material. They
Speaker 1: didn't want to watch repeats, and so that was you.
Speaker 3: Know, he still avoided my question there where he said
Speaker 3: he can't pick, He can't pick, do you because I
Speaker 3: would say, right now with the episodes were in, because
Speaker 3: we're we just talked about divas. I mean this it
Speaker 3: is thriving right now. Like I love season five, I
Speaker 3: love it so yeah. So to me, this is like
Speaker 3: season one was not my favorite, and it then it's
Speaker 3: just gotten better and better. Do you did you feel
Speaker 3: like it was because everyone was firing in all cylinders.
Speaker 3: You guys just finally knew exactly what the show was like.
Speaker 3: Can you pick.
Speaker 1: My favorite season? The season three senior year by far?
Speaker 2: Okay, this is a high school.
Speaker 1: Series and that's how I perceive it, and I'm really
Speaker 1: glad that you liked season stings.
Speaker 2: In season four, the fact is is that.
Speaker 1: We were blown away by the divas, the the three
Speaker 1: the three episode arc of it. It was and and
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sitting here talking and because I consider
Speaker 1: Jenny a friend, I can say, okay, here we do
Speaker 1: we put Jenny now that he says, look what you
Speaker 1: did to Kelly Taylor, especially after I left.
Speaker 2: They made her go through this.
Speaker 3: He left me.
Speaker 5: They did, I did.
Speaker 2: They did not Charlie. Charlie didn't do that.
Speaker 1: They did. But but the fact of the matter is
Speaker 1: is that when we wrote, uh, you know, okay, Kelly
Speaker 1: Taylor is going to go on and be the lead of.
Speaker 2: A Tennessee Williams play, I didn't know if you could
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 1: Jenny. I didn't come You didn't come to my mouth, Jenny,
Speaker 1: would you like to do Tennessee Waives? I didn't function
Speaker 1: that way because we're gonna do it. Well, it'll work,
Speaker 1: we'll cut around. But the the great performances by you,
Speaker 1: Shannon and Tracy Middendorf, I agree, I mean.
Speaker 2: They were they were some of the things.
Speaker 1: And by the way, when I and people who know
Speaker 1: that the podcast that I do with Pete we often
Speaker 1: talk about that.
Speaker 2: We were just astounded that h Shannon found her in
Speaker 2: season four, found her Sea legs. Yes, and she.
Speaker 1: Found it starting with the Time has Come Today and
Speaker 1: then through Divas and then through the end she she reconnected.
Speaker 2: With the character that she had.
Speaker 1: It was so ambivalent about, Yeah, you know, how can
Speaker 1: you play the part Brenda when you know that there's
Speaker 1: a bunch of people out there for whatever reason saying
Speaker 1: I hate Brenda and you're Brenda?
Speaker 3: Is that I hate Kelly? And Jenny played it.
Speaker 1: No, not like, not like, not like. It wasn't organized
Speaker 1: in the same way. That was a that was a thing,
Speaker 1: and it was double and we had this argument. I
Speaker 1: think Tory certainly remember this, Jenny, you might but A
Speaker 1: Current Affair was on every night and at seven o'clock
Speaker 1: we come on at eight other shows that come on
Speaker 1: in eight hosted by Bill Riley, and Bill Riley went
Speaker 1: after Shannon every week every week whatever he could he
Speaker 1: would And it was the only time I ever called
Speaker 1: the President and said, back off, what are you doing?
Speaker 2: You have this guy?
Speaker 1: And then and then the other one was great about
Speaker 1: season one. You know season one that one of the
Speaker 1: reasons Amy that you liked season four so much more
Speaker 1: than number one one. I had to battle, I had
Speaker 1: to have conversations with censors. I had We were talking
Speaker 1: about high school kids, and that was what, you know,
Speaker 1: the focus was, so what they would say, what they
Speaker 1: would do was was it was really was you know,
Speaker 1: really part of the uh gestalt of it. But but I,
Speaker 1: you know, I loved the senior year because I thought
Speaker 1: that that really had the it was Season two was
Speaker 1: the hardest season for me of the five because it
Speaker 1: wasn't in real time. You know, it's you know, when
Speaker 1: you're in high school, you know, you're most kids are
Speaker 1: talking about when they get to you, what was my
Speaker 1: SAT score? What college are going to? Where am I? This?
Speaker 1: And this? And and that was uh and we started
Speaker 1: that out and and I and I personally, just because
Speaker 1: of my nature of writing movies for television, I particularly
Speaker 1: liked episodes that were not serialized movies having an end.
Speaker 3: So so interesting. I mean, I love the serial. I
Speaker 3: could talk to you all day because this is so fascinating.
Speaker 3: I love the serial aspect of the show.
Speaker 2: Well, let you talk to iHeartRadio. Let's just talk about.
Speaker 3: But I Jenny and Ian and I had a fascinating
Speaker 3: conversation in the last week or whatever about that episode
Speaker 3: when he outs Mike Ryan and just how even though
Speaker 3: it's dated a little bit, it still feels so current
Speaker 3: and the issues and addressing abortion with with Andrea, and
Speaker 3: it's just like, you guys were so ahead of your
Speaker 3: time in leaning into these.
Speaker 1: You know what's numbers number one in that And it's
Speaker 1: really crazy because I didn't know, you know, I didn't
Speaker 1: watch most I put these episodes on, I watched them
Speaker 1: every night when they were on live, and then I
Speaker 1: put them away, and so I didn't really watch a
Speaker 1: lot of the episodes for a lot of years.
Speaker 2: And then you know, started getting back to it.
Speaker 1: But our second episode, which was a female centric episode,
Speaker 1: and it was because that's what we had to do.
Speaker 1: Then season one one for Brandon, one for Brenda, one
Speaker 1: for Brandon, one for Brenda, one for Brandon, oops one
Speaker 1: for Kelly, which was perfect mom, and that changed it
Speaker 1: all up, believe me. And then and really the only
Speaker 1: two she had that one. And then of course Dylan
Speaker 1: got his breakthrough with Isn't It Romantic? The Ages episode,
Speaker 1: and Tory Yours came along a little later, but still
Speaker 1: in season one with the SAT and the idea of
Speaker 1: your of a learning disability, the fact that a show
Speaker 1: is you know, so the show could be dated. Right. Third,
Speaker 1: we're talking about these shows that we made thirty years ago,
Speaker 1: and that's going to be really part of my argument
Speaker 1: about why the music has to be restored.
Speaker 2: But nonetheless, the second episode we did was Every Dream
Speaker 2: Has Its Price Tag and it was about shoplifting and
Speaker 2: in there you will hair dialogue spoken just perfectly natural
Speaker 2: and in the time about white privilege. That to me
Speaker 2: was how do we know to do that?
Speaker 1: Well? The writer was into that, she wrote it, and
Speaker 1: Amy's p's and so it was.
Speaker 2: It was that. But we had all of these issues
Speaker 2: and Aaron. Aaron thrived on it. He loved this part
Speaker 2: of the show. He wanted this, It was his, it
Speaker 2: was his vision.
Speaker 1: So when we finally connected after with the Gulf War
Speaker 1: and our shows came back and all of a sudden
Speaker 1: we were getting seven hundred and fifty thousand viewers more
Speaker 1: a night, he was so he was thrilled with it.
Speaker 1: And I really loved the first year and the second
Speaker 1: year because that's when I really got the chance to
Speaker 1: work with your dad, Torri. After that, he got so busy.
Speaker 1: He wanted so many you know, he's your father, you
Speaker 1: know the man so much better than I did.
Speaker 2: But what motivated him? What he wanted? And I just
Speaker 2: lost my access to him.
Speaker 1: I mean, when it were the only show that was there,
Speaker 1: he and I were on the same floor in the
Speaker 1: same building.
Speaker 2: I'd walk down, we'd hang out, we talk about the things.
Speaker 1: I remember very clearly when he said to me, you
Speaker 1: know with Donna, you know that Donna should be a virgin,
Speaker 1: And it was like, yes, absolutely she should.
Speaker 5: There was so that was his idea.
Speaker 2: That was that your idea or hear his idea?
Speaker 5: Not fine, I never knew where I always suspected and
Speaker 5: people say like he kept his daughter a virgin? But
Speaker 5: was it literally his idea?
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: And by the way, the entire first writing staff just went, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's I think. I think it was the second
Speaker 1: rise that was the Wasserman's and I we just went, yo, yeah,
Speaker 1: that that makes perfect sense because we were able now
Speaker 1: to differentiate yourself. And when I loved about it. I
Speaker 1: watched an episode U yesterday, the one where not my
Speaker 1: favorite in season one, but surprisingly holds up well where
Speaker 1: an old boyfriend comes back into Cindy's.
Speaker 6: Like, oh yeah, that's a good one, and yes one,
Speaker 6: and and and you know, and seeing that and seeing
Speaker 6: you know, you you you would be dressed, you know,
Speaker 6: provocatively stylishly, but you know, a girl and so but
Speaker 6: it didn't matter because certainly, if you were, for whatever
Speaker 6: reason a virgin at that point, you could dress like that,
Speaker 6: you just you know, would blend in, but not actually
Speaker 6: be doing the deed as it were.
Speaker 1: So, you know, it was so I you know, I
Speaker 1: really did miss that aspect of it. And I think
Speaker 1: that part of the problems that we had with our
Speaker 1: music and losing our music in the way we did,
Speaker 1: had to do with the fact of how much was
Speaker 1: on the company's plate at that point, how much time
Speaker 1: had a lot, and that neither.
Speaker 2: Darren or I were around to make a case.
Speaker 4: Whose idea was it to do a sixty slashback show mine.
Speaker 3: That's why you don't like that. I didn't like it.
Speaker 4: Wasn't just you that didn't like it. None of us
Speaker 4: are really crazy about that episode.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna go more to the quick on this Amy,
Speaker 1: And this is not a criticism of the three of
Speaker 1: you or anyone iHeartRadio or anybody else's names are up
Speaker 1: here in this. You're not watching the television show I made,
Speaker 1: right right, you didn't watch it.
Speaker 2: Here's what songs.
Speaker 1: Let me just go through something. Here's what songs you
Speaker 1: didn't hear on this episode that you didn't like.
Speaker 2: Monday, Monday, Monday by the mom.
Speaker 1: And I'm talking about about now we're talking about the soundtrack.
Speaker 3: And were these in the original airing?
Speaker 2: Yes, these were the original airing.
Speaker 1: This was the second most music that we had in
Speaker 1: the entire five years I did the show. The only
Speaker 1: show that had more music license was Commencement and that
Speaker 1: in season three our graduation, and that was a two
Speaker 1: hour episode was and that was That's.
Speaker 3: An amazing, brilliant, perfection episode.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you think.
Speaker 3: So sorry, I still don't like this one.
Speaker 1: Well, I still don't think. I'm gonna send you. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have Pete send you the episode and you can
Speaker 1: hear it.
Speaker 3: But keep keep explaining the music, because I I'll still
Speaker 3: give my argument why I don't love it, But go
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, So, I'm sorry, I'm freaking out. This is
Speaker 3: such a fascinating This is like should be a pullege
Speaker 3: class to me, like you are passionate about it.
Speaker 1: I taught. I taught in college, so I know those classes.
Speaker 3: I took classes like this, and I would if I
Speaker 3: could have taken this class or take it now, Oh
Speaker 3: my god, I would go back to school for this class.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but but Berkeley wouldn't carry it.
Speaker 1: They would tell you have to go to u. C. L. A. Amy. Anyway, Woodstock.
Speaker 1: It opened with Joni Mitchell singing Woodstock, Mama's and Papa's
Speaker 1: doing Monday Money on the jukebox. These boots are making
Speaker 1: for walking by Nancy Sinatra, which was the song. There
Speaker 1: were two songs in the sixties that had to do
Speaker 1: with the soldiers, and that was one of them, and
Speaker 1: the other was I Ain't No Fortunate Son or ad
Speaker 1: Moon Rising was also any guy who was served in Vietnam,
Speaker 1: here's that song, and yeah, back in the Fields. So anyway,
Speaker 1: we had for what it's worth with the Buffalo Springfield
Speaker 1: on the radio. We had the coolest song that really
Speaker 1: catches the sixties. For your audience, to write this one down.
Speaker 1: It's called reach It Out in the Darkness, and it's
Speaker 1: I think it's so groovy now that people have finally
Speaker 1: getting together. That was the number one teeny bopper sixties
Speaker 1: song of the time, Everybody get together by the Love
Speaker 1: Young Bloods. You know chance time has come today, which
Speaker 1: was the psychedelic song, and many people probably took their
Speaker 1: not Charlie, but many people probably took their psychedelic trips
Speaker 1: on that. I was not a partake in psychedelics, by
Speaker 1: the way, because I was fit.
Speaker 2: I was fearful that I would lose my mind, so
Speaker 2: I never did that.
Speaker 3: Same don't same, same little, same over it.
Speaker 1: We had where you loved like Keaven by Donovan. We
Speaker 1: had all we are saying is give piece a chance
Speaker 1: by John and Yoko God.
Speaker 3: That was all this is expensive music.
Speaker 1: And then we had the last thing, one of the
Speaker 1: most beautiful songs.
Speaker 2: It's a Dylan song.
Speaker 1: We had it by Richie Havens saying the times they
Speaker 1: are changing, which is when Brenda drives and meets the woman.
Speaker 2: Who wrote had the Diary. That's by Richie Havens. You
Speaker 2: didn't hear one of those songs, so it's pretty.
Speaker 1: Hard for you to get see where the music supported
Speaker 1: the dramaturgy and the two connected.
Speaker 2: And we're very much and this happens you know.
Speaker 1: The stuff that that CBS puts out there and people
Speaker 1: watch is a lesser product.
Speaker 3: It's not the.
Speaker 1: Show that that I made with your father and I
Speaker 1: and I made that argument to David's staff at CBS.
Speaker 1: I made that argument to the National Academy of Television.
Speaker 1: I made that ad argument again and again and again
Speaker 1: to episodes by people by CBS. And the response, and
Speaker 1: this one is really going to infuriate you, especially you, Jenny,
Speaker 1: is when I really finally I had a good agent,
Speaker 1: you know who I didn't for long years, but an
Speaker 1: old agent of mine became a very powerful agent.
Speaker 2: And and and and.
Speaker 1: When I said I wanted to talk to somebody at
Speaker 1: CBS on the distribution side because they keep saying no
Speaker 1: to these reasonable proposals.
Speaker 2: And I talked to a guy.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let his name out of it, but he's
Speaker 1: the man who claims that he told Paramount to buy
Speaker 1: Spelling Entertainment. And he's the man who told me when
Speaker 1: I talked about all this music and all this stuff
Speaker 1: and that how our loyal fans are, etc. Etc.
Speaker 2: He said, yeah, but it's too bad none of your
Speaker 2: stars really are big. And one week.
Speaker 1: Later, Luke Perry died, oh one week later from that
Speaker 1: conversation where the whole world stops to remember our brother in.
Speaker 7: Arms, our friend, our lover, our the soul of this
Speaker 7: television show and this is and that doesn't jive with
Speaker 7: the corporate mentality on looking at an issue.
Speaker 1: That is a money issue. And I kept trying to
Speaker 1: go back to them and say, let's just take twenty
Speaker 1: shows from Heis School. Let's just take twelve shows from
Speaker 1: high school. Because what it mattered of those three seasons,
Speaker 1: just pick them so that the audience can understand.
Speaker 2: What was about this show.
Speaker 1: You watched the original episodes of this show with the
Speaker 1: nineties in order not thrown out the way that they
Speaker 1: do and decide not to show them, and you realized
Speaker 1: that you are watching a documentary about what life was
Speaker 1: like in the nineties. Yeah, that's what mattered to me.
Speaker 1: You know when I went into television, when I went
Speaker 1: and excuse me, first news and then television. I did
Speaker 1: that instead of becoming a history professor, which is what
Speaker 1: I wanted to be part of me and was actually
Speaker 1: accepted the University of Texas to do that program and
Speaker 1: be part of that. And so here we we create
Speaker 1: this show that is a direct reflection of the nineties,
Speaker 1: and there's nobody to see it. There's no way to
Speaker 1: see it because CBS won't take twenty episodisodes, fourteen episodes.
Speaker 1: I don't care many episodes and donate them to UCLA
Speaker 1: or Wisconsin and let our fans know that.
Speaker 2: It's going to be there. So what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: I've got all the ones I've got, and the my
Speaker 1: heirs will be instructed when they read my will just
Speaker 1: let them all put them all on on the internet.
Speaker 3: So in Layman's terms, like just kindergarten explanation, the reason
Speaker 3: so the first airing it had all that music and
Speaker 3: then the reason it doesn't now is just purely because
Speaker 3: it would be too expensive to continue to license the
Speaker 3: music in those episodes like what's the kindergarten?
Speaker 1: That was well, that was okay. That is a good question.
Speaker 1: That is the question why did they do this? And
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that they did it the cup
Speaker 1: I don't want to get into some of them because
Speaker 1: I just don't in this form. I'll tell the four
Speaker 1: of you that when we're not being recorded, if you
Speaker 1: don't mind, if you understand, I want to protect people's
Speaker 1: feelings and things like that.
Speaker 5: But the fact don't protect our feelings. We're fine, not us.
Speaker 2: We have pretty much. Yes, I understand at a certain point.
Speaker 1: But the television had always gone. It was interesting, you
Speaker 1: know what, what really bothers me about the television industry.
Speaker 1: And I compare this to music and film. In music,
Speaker 1: working with the federal government and the Library of Congress,
Speaker 1: they have all the great tunes that they add thirty
Speaker 1: pieces of music to it, and they say, these are
Speaker 1: the great songs that were written in the twentieth century.
Speaker 1: They do the same thing with film. Hello, the American
Speaker 1: Film Institute. Television doesn't do this. Television is about the
Speaker 1: quick hit were popular, We're hot, We're making money. God
Speaker 1: bless the world. And so when they get to a
Speaker 1: point when the business starts to change, people get real worried.
Speaker 1: In the late eighties, right before Fox started. Fox started
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine, and they started because they knew
Speaker 1: that network television was in decline. They could see there
Speaker 1: was a way there that what had been for all
Speaker 1: of those years wasn't going to be happening in the
Speaker 1: same way, well the same at the end of the nineties,
Speaker 1: what we had was HBO in showtime, and that's where
Speaker 1: the heat was. The heat was not.
Speaker 2: On network anymore, and the networks didn't how are we
Speaker 2: going to do our stuff?
Speaker 1: What are we going to do? And so what happened
Speaker 1: also during this period in the late nineties, sir, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: And what.
Speaker 2: Napster did was take away a.
Speaker 1: Huge profit zone from the recording industry, and they decided
Speaker 1: that the way they were going to get it back
Speaker 1: was to.
Speaker 2: Charge much more.
Speaker 1: To the television people.
Speaker 2: Oh really, And and that's what happened.
Speaker 1: You know, interestingly enough, as you know, and I the
Speaker 1: only the show that I did after nine o two
Speaker 1: and zero was I.
Speaker 2: Did Dawson's Creek for one season.
Speaker 1: And I was not really very much of a creative
Speaker 1: producer on that one, all things being twothful, But I
Speaker 1: was a bit used to the business stuff that I
Speaker 1: had learned, and I had worked with the president of
Speaker 1: Warners who basically said, we're not going to pay that
Speaker 1: much for our music anymore.
Speaker 2: We're paying way too much. Why should we pay so much?
Speaker 1: If we're giving them an opportunity to.
Speaker 2: Get the promotion, why should we do that?
Speaker 1: And that was Bob Daily, and that's who had I
Speaker 1: felt I worked for even though I was Sony.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's some sense that makes sense, there's some
Speaker 3: that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, But the thing was is that you were paying
Speaker 1: no matter what you were paying for, you were paying
Speaker 1: for a song you wanted, a song you went after.
Speaker 1: And there was something about what gets me a little bit,
Speaker 1: and what I think the Spelling Company is complicit in
Speaker 1: this one area is that those first people from Propaganda
Speaker 1: only bought our music for two airings, got it because
Speaker 1: nobody believed the show was gonna last, so then he
Speaker 1: did two errings.
Speaker 3: So is that the difference between like a show like
Speaker 3: Grey's Anatomy that has so much amazing music is because
Speaker 3: they're licensing it in perpetuity or something from.
Speaker 1: The retting correct amy And then what happened after that
Speaker 1: instead of Spelling when Kenny Miller, who who was really
Speaker 1: uh was so important to me while I was making
Speaker 1: the show, he was as I was as close to
Speaker 1: Kenny as I was to Paul, And yet after I
Speaker 1: left the show, it was Kenny who supervised stripping all
Speaker 1: the music away. Really yeah, and he worked for the company.
Speaker 1: He had to do what the company told them to do,
Speaker 1: but he never told me that was going on or
Speaker 1: that it was be doing.
Speaker 2: But but be that as it may. The the music.
Speaker 1: It's itself that that was there were you know, we
Speaker 1: were songs that we had made a deal with, we
Speaker 1: had when it was acceptable to the seller. So you
Speaker 1: know some of the songs, for instance, some of the
Speaker 1: songs when you think of Season two, Losing My Religion, Arim,
Speaker 1: Other Side of Summer, Elvis Costello, Rick and Gage, Chris Isaac,
Speaker 1: Happy Shiny People.
Speaker 3: Are huge songs.
Speaker 2: Friends in Low.
Speaker 1: Places, Garth Brooks, My God, and then moving forward, Damn,
Speaker 1: I wish I was your lover? Why Kathy Dennis from
Speaker 1: prom That Night, Blood is Thicker Than Water and and
Speaker 1: Me and Mourray from Color Me Bad. So those were
Speaker 1: songs that were were we paid for.
Speaker 2: We did it. I came.
Speaker 1: When I came to CBS, I thought, okay, let's just
Speaker 1: double the price of it and they'll do that.
Speaker 2: But they did. They wouldn't. So the idea of saying
Speaker 2: to all.
Speaker 1: Two hundred and ninety eight episodes, forget about it, right,
Speaker 1: That's when I picked working with Darren Martin, Sarah.
Speaker 8: Page Hall Uh, you know some of our real real
Speaker 8: super friends and fans who may be listening as we
Speaker 8: speak to help me select what episodes to use.
Speaker 1: And these were the ones that I just wanted preserved,
Speaker 1: some of which had good music to it too. For instance,
Speaker 1: if you were going to do a music cent trick episode,
Speaker 1: you have to do Fame is where you find it
Speaker 1: because there's Brenda Laverne nice doing that. You know, it's
Speaker 1: my party and whatever else was being done, all the
Speaker 1: fun stuff that was there. But the episodes that we
Speaker 1: looked at, the twenty two episodes we asked them to
Speaker 1: put away was the first time Darren, And do you
Speaker 1: need me to describe what the episodes were?
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 3: Wait, so here's what I have to tell you. I
Speaker 3: screwed up because I've been asking so many questions that
Speaker 3: we ran out of time. So can we have you
Speaker 3: back again in a couple of weeks to continue this
Speaker 3: conversation because we.
Speaker 2: Have Yeah, but I probably won't be as nice.
Speaker 3: That's okay, that's okay, you can that's okay. You're in
Speaker 3: a good mood today, so can we continue. We're going
Speaker 3: to do a part two of this because it is
Speaker 3: so fascinating. Can we get me back?
Speaker 1: And it is very.
Speaker 2: Different for your audience, So I appreciate your patience.
Speaker 3: No, I love it, and I do want to get
Speaker 3: into I do want to get into I think the
Speaker 3: music would have improved the sixties episode. I started to.
Speaker 4: Yes, for sure.
Speaker 5: I have a question, Amy. I don't even know if
Speaker 5: you can remember, but when you watched it the first
Speaker 5: time through, do you remember liking this episode when I
Speaker 5: had the original music back here?
Speaker 3: The episode is like.
Speaker 5: See, this one stands out so much to me. But
Speaker 5: it's because of the wardrobe. I think that we got
Speaker 5: to wear it, so that's how I remember it originally.
Speaker 4: And the music. I mean, the reason that we're talking
Speaker 4: about any of this is because the music is just
Speaker 4: as as important to the storytelling as any of the
Speaker 4: other elements of it.
Speaker 1: And we needed it, and we did it, and we
Speaker 1: put it together and we out it. What you're saying
Speaker 1: to the fans, I didn't. When I come back, I
Speaker 1: will read you what our fans wrote about what they
Speaker 1: write about not having the music there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if we get a lot of comments.
Speaker 1: Because this is about the fans, and if we and
Speaker 1: by the way, it's about one other thing too, uh minor.
Speaker 1: This is very minor. And I know you got to go,
Speaker 1: but this is this is this. I would like my
Speaker 1: grandchildren to profit from the hard work that I made.
Speaker 1: I am a proper participant on this show. That's why
Speaker 1: I could be retired and live in Venice Beach and
Speaker 1: I God bless.
Speaker 2: The giving tree.
Speaker 1: Yes, I for all you know, as I remember the
Speaker 1: day that mister Spelling when he decided that the Bachman
Speaker 1: is head of.
Speaker 2: Business affairs, kept running in and saying to him.
Speaker 1: Charge, Aaron, are you sure you want to pay him
Speaker 1: this amount? If you pay him this, this is for
Speaker 1: the rest of his life. And your dad did you
Speaker 1: quote your dad on this story? He said, I like
Speaker 1: his wife and kids.
Speaker 3: Ah. I get it, though, if you create something, it's
Speaker 3: like taking a book and changing the middle pages.
Speaker 2: It's just a really fundamental lack of disrespect. And they
Speaker 2: didn't make the show. Yeah, I guess come Out did
Speaker 2: the same thing to Happy Days. They did it too.
Speaker 4: I mean, beyond the profit sharing of it all, which
Speaker 4: it strikes it a little trigger in me, I'm gonna
Speaker 4: move past that, and I'm going to say it's really
Speaker 4: about preserving an iconic show.
Speaker 1: That said just take a sliver of it, start with this,
Speaker 1: see how it does, and beg them to become the
Speaker 1: industry leaders. And if anybody knows the book Unscripted by
Speaker 1: James B.
Speaker 2: Stewart, you should read it.
Speaker 1: It's about some of the Redstone and less Moonfest and
Speaker 1: you understand where the money went.
Speaker 3: Well, we're going to continue this for sure. I'll email
Speaker 3: you and we'll have you back in two weeks because
Speaker 3: I want to talk more about this. It's really interesting.
Speaker 4: Well, I just like you are so knowledgeable. We miss
Speaker 4: this sort of voice on our show because our show
Speaker 4: is not really This isn't the temperature of our show usually,
Speaker 4: and you understand that we're we have a lot more
Speaker 4: fun with it. To all the details, but to each
Speaker 4: their own, but we we really appreciate when you come
Speaker 4: on and you give us this insight and all the
Speaker 4: real And I like.
Speaker 1: Coming on because I get to be with both of you. Yes,
Speaker 1: these too, I spend a lot of time with.
Speaker 4: It's always the best to see you, always the best
Speaker 4: I have.
Speaker 3: I have a load more questions. Thank you for I
Speaker 3: know me too.
Speaker 4: Love you, Love to Karen.
Speaker 5: We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1: We'll see you then, Bye bye bye bye