WEBVTT - Machiavelli's Tips for Getting Ahead at Work 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:27.236 Pushkin. Welcome to Caveat. We have a very special show 0:00:27.276 --> 0:00:29.796 for you tonight. I'm Will Pearson, president of iHeart Podcast. 0:00:29.876 --> 0:00:32.556 We are proud to be partners with Pushkin on this 0:00:32.676 --> 0:00:38.996 very special podcast What's Your Problem with Jacob Goldstein. So 0:00:39.156 --> 0:00:53.156 please join me and welcoming Jacob and Stacy to the stage. 0:00:57.116 --> 0:01:00.316 Women get a raw deal at work. Men make more money, 0:01:00.756 --> 0:01:03.716 Men run almost all of the world's biggest companies, and 0:01:03.796 --> 0:01:07.916 men capture almost all of the dollars invested by venture capitalists. 0:01:08.356 --> 0:01:10.796 And yeah, I mean sure, we should work to make 0:01:10.836 --> 0:01:14.236 the world more just to bring these numbers closer to balance. 0:01:15.196 --> 0:01:20.116 But but while we are doing that work, women still 0:01:20.156 --> 0:01:22.996 have to go to work every day and you know, 0:01:23.116 --> 0:01:25.756 try to get a raise, try to get promoted, try 0:01:25.796 --> 0:01:29.156 to get the things that we all want. So while 0:01:29.196 --> 0:01:31.876 we wait for the just world to arrive, it would 0:01:31.916 --> 0:01:35.516 be nice to have a little help, you know, say, 0:01:35.956 --> 0:01:38.996 a guide book, a guide book for how women can 0:01:39.036 --> 0:01:44.156 get ahead in the male dominated workplace. As it turns out, 0:01:44.756 --> 0:01:48.116 this book exists, and it was written more than five 0:01:48.276 --> 0:01:51.916 hundred years ago. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is What's 0:01:51.916 --> 0:01:54.796 Your Problem Live from Caveat on the Lower East side 0:01:54.836 --> 0:02:12.716 of Manhattan. My guest today is Stacy Vanix Smith. Thank you. 0:02:12.956 --> 0:02:17.316 I'm really excited to be here. Stacy is you are 0:02:18.076 --> 0:02:21.836 the Global economics correspondent at NPR. You're my friend. We 0:02:21.916 --> 0:02:25.676 work together at Planet Money, and most importantly for tonight's show, 0:02:26.116 --> 0:02:29.396 you're the author of the book Machiavelli for Women, Defend 0:02:29.476 --> 0:02:35.276 your worth, grow your ambition, and win the workplace. Yes, Stacy, 0:02:35.596 --> 0:02:38.836 your problem, as I have defined it is this, how 0:02:38.876 --> 0:02:41.756 can women get ahead in a workplace that is stacked 0:02:41.836 --> 0:02:45.396 against them? Yes? I would say that's a That's a 0:02:45.436 --> 0:02:48.556 great framing for the problem. Is that? Is it good? 0:02:48.676 --> 0:02:50.796 So what I want to do is I want to 0:02:50.836 --> 0:02:54.276 talk about your own career, as you do in the book, 0:02:54.596 --> 0:02:57.396 and how some of the larger problems facing women have 0:02:57.476 --> 0:03:00.836 come up in your own career, and how if only 0:03:00.876 --> 0:03:03.356 you had known your Machiavelli, he would have helped you 0:03:03.356 --> 0:03:06.836 solve those problems. But before we get to that, let's 0:03:06.876 --> 0:03:09.436 just like give me like a little hit of Machiavelli. 0:03:09.516 --> 0:03:11.916 Just give us the like kind of Machiavelli set up 0:03:12.036 --> 0:03:15.916 for the bigger story. Right. Well, I had read Machiavelli 0:03:16.116 --> 0:03:19.916 in college as part of like a political science overview class, 0:03:19.916 --> 0:03:23.836 and I had really hated the book terribly because it's 0:03:23.956 --> 0:03:28.516 very cynical. You know, Machiavelli does not think people are great. 0:03:28.836 --> 0:03:32.956 Machiavelli is a little bit cynical about who people are 0:03:32.996 --> 0:03:36.636 and the things that motivate them. But you know, I 0:03:36.756 --> 0:03:40.196 then I went to work in the workplace and I 0:03:40.236 --> 0:03:43.036 started thinking about Machiavelli more and more. And when I 0:03:43.076 --> 0:03:45.676 went back and revisited the book, the book was a 0:03:45.676 --> 0:03:49.716 little different than I had remembered it. And the premise 0:03:49.756 --> 0:03:51.956 of the book is he's like, there are two kinds 0:03:51.956 --> 0:03:54.836 of princes, the prince, two kinds of princes. Like they're 0:03:54.876 --> 0:03:57.676 the princes who inherit their kingdoms, and he's like, for them, 0:03:57.716 --> 0:04:00.596 it's pretty cushy, things are pretty easy. Everyone's like, oh yeah, 0:04:00.636 --> 0:04:03.276 that guy's in power. And then they're the conquering princes. 0:04:03.316 --> 0:04:05.916 And he's like, for the conquering prince's difficulties abound. They're 0:04:05.956 --> 0:04:08.916 new to this territory, their powers being questioned constantly, why 0:04:08.996 --> 0:04:12.196 is them? Why not me? And I was like, that 0:04:12.396 --> 0:04:17.116 is actually a really good proxy for women and people 0:04:17.116 --> 0:04:19.676 of color and other marginalized workers in the workplace because 0:04:19.956 --> 0:04:25.196 we're in the workplace, right like, but the difficulties abound. 0:04:25.196 --> 0:04:27.356 We're getting questioned and pushed back and all that stuff. 0:04:27.396 --> 0:04:29.996 So I actually thought it was a really beautiful approach. 0:04:30.516 --> 0:04:33.116 It didn't seem cynical to me, per se. I mean, 0:04:33.156 --> 0:04:36.796 he is a little cynical about people, truly. But what 0:04:36.956 --> 0:04:41.556 interested me was that his whole idea is that you 0:04:41.676 --> 0:04:46.316 take remove emotion from situations and approach everything logically. And 0:04:46.436 --> 0:04:50.236 I actually found that very very helpful when approaching issues 0:04:50.516 --> 0:04:54.836 of unfairness in the workplace and the workplace in general, 0:04:55.156 --> 0:04:57.196 which can be kind of an emotional place. But I 0:04:57.236 --> 0:05:00.596 found it very a very useful way to start and 0:05:00.676 --> 0:05:03.316 approach issues at work. Yeah, I mean, it seems like 0:05:03.356 --> 0:05:07.036 one of the things in your book and in Matthiavelli 0:05:07.356 --> 0:05:11.556 is it's sort of the ugly truth, right like. And 0:05:11.796 --> 0:05:13.716 and this comes through in the in the book and 0:05:13.716 --> 0:05:15.436 the things you recommend, I mean as well, get to 0:05:15.636 --> 0:05:18.716 it's like, it's not dealing with the world as we 0:05:18.796 --> 0:05:21.276 want it to be, right and the solutions are not 0:05:21.356 --> 0:05:24.796 the kind of solutions we would want, right It's it's 0:05:25.276 --> 0:05:28.996 it's kind of grim but maybe effective. Yes, Well, I 0:05:29.036 --> 0:05:31.516 started looking at a lot of the research around this 0:05:31.556 --> 0:05:35.196 because I'm a big homework person. I've always been good 0:05:35.196 --> 0:05:38.156 about doing homework. So when I would come up against 0:05:38.156 --> 0:05:41.196 issues in my job and my career, for instance, I 0:05:41.676 --> 0:05:44.716 really don't like negotiating, so I would read books about 0:05:44.756 --> 0:05:47.316 how to negotiate. I would do homework, and then I 0:05:47.316 --> 0:05:50.716 would try the things in the books and they would 0:05:50.756 --> 0:05:53.636 not work. I'm one. In one instance, it was like, 0:05:53.676 --> 0:05:55.276 you know, you need to talk yourself up. You need 0:05:55.316 --> 0:05:59.156 to go into your you know, your review and basically 0:05:59.276 --> 0:06:01.396 kind of list off all of your accomplishments. And I 0:06:01.476 --> 0:06:04.636 did that and it didn't feel great, but I you know, 0:06:04.676 --> 0:06:06.516 I did the thing because it was what the book 0:06:06.556 --> 0:06:12.356 said to do, and it sure's reaction was wow, you 0:06:12.356 --> 0:06:16.236 certainly think a lot of yourself. And then I just 0:06:16.276 --> 0:06:18.476 spent the whole time trying not to cry and definitely 0:06:18.516 --> 0:06:20.916 didn't ask for a raise. I know it was it was. 0:06:21.236 --> 0:06:24.676 It was rough, but but I realized that a lot 0:06:24.716 --> 0:06:27.236 of the advice that should work, and that should work, right, 0:06:27.276 --> 0:06:30.276 it actually does work for men if you look at 0:06:30.276 --> 0:06:32.156 there's a lot of research about this stuff, which was 0:06:32.276 --> 0:06:35.276 very very helpful to me. It does work for men, 0:06:36.276 --> 0:06:38.116 but if when women do it, it does tend to 0:06:38.116 --> 0:06:42.676 backfire because people have different expectations often when they're talking 0:06:42.716 --> 0:06:45.876 to different people, and so if you do one thing 0:06:46.836 --> 0:06:50.396 and I do another, the reaction is often going to 0:06:50.436 --> 0:06:52.516 be quite different. And so I wanted to acknowledge the 0:06:52.556 --> 0:06:55.596 reality of that is that okay, No, it's not okay. 0:06:55.636 --> 0:06:57.996 Like if you go in and list off your accomplishments 0:06:57.996 --> 0:07:00.036 and they're like, you know what, Jacob, you're right, like 0:07:00.116 --> 0:07:01.916 you really have achieved a lot, and I go in 0:07:01.916 --> 0:07:03.476 and they're like, wow, you think a lot of yourself. 0:07:03.516 --> 0:07:06.676 That isn't okay, but it is the reality. So how 0:07:07.156 --> 0:07:10.036 should I deal with that? As you say, in workplace 0:07:10.036 --> 0:07:13.756 where I want to raise and you know, maybe I'm 0:07:13.756 --> 0:07:15.596 not in a position to sort of change the whole 0:07:15.596 --> 0:07:19.796 structure of the workplace. So there's this metaphor really that 0:07:19.836 --> 0:07:23.316 you use in the book to describe this double bind 0:07:23.436 --> 0:07:28.236 basically that women are in right where if you do 0:07:28.356 --> 0:07:31.476 things that would seem compelling in a man, you're looked 0:07:31.516 --> 0:07:33.436 down on, and if you don't then you don't get 0:07:33.436 --> 0:07:35.676 the raise either. So it's sort of a lose lose situation, 0:07:35.756 --> 0:07:38.236 right And you call it the hot box, yes, which 0:07:38.716 --> 0:07:40.956 apparently is a different meaning where you grew up than 0:07:40.996 --> 0:07:44.876 where I grew up, because where I grew up, you 0:07:44.876 --> 0:07:46.676 know what I'm gonna say, Where I grew up, hot 0:07:46.676 --> 0:07:49.676 boxing was smoking weed in the car with the windows up, 0:07:49.716 --> 0:07:52.956 which is not what you mean. Right in in Boise, Idaho, 0:07:53.036 --> 0:07:57.836 your hometown, the hot box is what it is. I 0:07:58.036 --> 0:08:00.636 was like a t ball term, like a baseball term. 0:08:00.716 --> 0:08:04.476 So what happened much more wholesome place very well, I 0:08:04.516 --> 0:08:07.836 don't know about that, but but yeah, so I was 0:08:07.876 --> 0:08:10.836 on a t ball team. Is really terrible at t ball, 0:08:10.916 --> 0:08:13.396 but I would get a hit every once in a while. 0:08:13.476 --> 0:08:16.636 But it's a term for if you're caught between bases essentially, 0:08:16.676 --> 0:08:18.876 so if you're like running between second and third base 0:08:19.156 --> 0:08:22.596 and the second baseman gets the ball and like basically 0:08:22.596 --> 0:08:24.436 they can throw it back and forth between second and 0:08:24.476 --> 0:08:27.756 third base and you're not out. You're in between the bases, 0:08:27.956 --> 0:08:31.436 but you're doomed. It's not good. There's no where you 0:08:31.516 --> 0:08:33.436 can go. There's no where you can go your track. Okay, 0:08:33.436 --> 0:08:35.836 so that's the I think. Did you say where you 0:08:35.916 --> 0:08:37.716 group they called it a pickle. Yeah, they called it 0:08:37.756 --> 0:08:41.796 a pickle. It's just it's lightful. It applies as well, right, 0:08:41.836 --> 0:08:44.716 so so how does this map to women in the workplace. 0:08:45.116 --> 0:08:48.556 So what happens is when women get into leadership positions, 0:08:49.636 --> 0:08:53.156 they run into this issue where the things that people 0:08:53.276 --> 0:08:56.116 like to see in leaders are people that don't care 0:08:56.116 --> 0:08:58.356 that much to what other people think, people who are decisive, 0:08:58.476 --> 0:09:01.036 people who will speak up and take credit for their actions, 0:09:01.476 --> 0:09:04.636 people who are assertive and will push back. So those 0:09:04.636 --> 0:09:06.316 are the qualities people want to see in a leader. 0:09:06.356 --> 0:09:08.316 Those are things that inspire people when it comes to 0:09:08.396 --> 0:09:11.196 leaders and those line up almost exactly with the qualities 0:09:11.196 --> 0:09:14.436 people also admire in men. The problem is when you 0:09:14.476 --> 0:09:17.436 are a woman and you do those things the qualities 0:09:17.476 --> 0:09:19.956 that people associate with a quote unquote good woman, and 0:09:20.036 --> 0:09:25.836 those are things like nurturing, humble, compassionate, sympathetic, supportive. Those 0:09:25.836 --> 0:09:30.876 are all really beautiful qualities also, but you can't really 0:09:30.996 --> 0:09:34.076 use them in a leadership position all the time. So 0:09:34.276 --> 0:09:36.916 when women get into leadership positions, they're in a situation, 0:09:37.356 --> 0:09:43.436 the hot box, the pickle where if they sort of 0:09:43.436 --> 0:09:48.556 behave in traditionally more feminine ways, they are considered bad leaders. 0:09:48.636 --> 0:09:51.916 Right if you're compassionate and supportive and gentle and kind, 0:09:52.876 --> 0:09:55.876 that doesn't work as a leader. But then when women 0:09:55.996 --> 0:09:58.636 will try to display more masculine traits, they will be 0:09:58.756 --> 0:10:01.516 very deeply disliked. And you see this a lot of 0:10:01.516 --> 0:10:04.916 times with female politicians, like very kind of pronounced cases. 0:10:04.996 --> 0:10:08.116 So you end up in a situation where if you 0:10:08.236 --> 0:10:11.756 kind of can't. So I feel like, for me, this 0:10:11.876 --> 0:10:15.996 was like the really big central idea that I took 0:10:16.036 --> 0:10:18.876 from the book because it just framed so much and 0:10:18.956 --> 0:10:22.876 it seems so pernicious. But then what I found really 0:10:22.876 --> 0:10:27.636 interesting was these ways you enumerate of not solving the 0:10:27.716 --> 0:10:30.516 larger problem but dealing with it right, of how to 0:10:30.596 --> 0:10:33.876 live in this unjust world as a professional woman basically. 0:10:33.916 --> 0:10:36.436 And so I thought we could walk through some of 0:10:36.476 --> 0:10:39.356 the moments from your career that you talk about in 0:10:39.356 --> 0:10:41.916 the book, from before you had you know, the wisdom 0:10:41.916 --> 0:10:44.636 of Machiavelli at your fingertips, and sort of walk through 0:10:44.636 --> 0:10:47.676 what happened, and then you know what would Mackievelli do 0:10:47.836 --> 0:10:51.436 basically or have done. So there's one you talk about 0:10:51.476 --> 0:10:54.516 where it's relatively early in your career and you find 0:10:54.556 --> 0:10:58.236 out a male colleague with a similar job is making 0:10:58.356 --> 0:11:00.596 a lot more money than you, Like, tell me tell 0:11:00.596 --> 0:11:03.036 me that one. Yes, So I found out. So this 0:11:03.116 --> 0:11:05.596 is when I had first become a reporter, and I 0:11:05.676 --> 0:11:07.476 was very very excited to become a reporter. I had 0:11:07.516 --> 0:11:09.356 been a producer and it can be kind of a 0:11:09.396 --> 0:11:11.636 hard jump to make. Really wanted to make it. And 0:11:11.676 --> 0:11:16.436 I found out I was a reporter. And shortly after that, 0:11:17.116 --> 0:11:20.316 a male colleague was promoted and he, I think four 0:11:20.476 --> 0:11:23.756 or five years less experience than I did. And I 0:11:23.836 --> 0:11:26.836 found out through a series of events that he was 0:11:26.916 --> 0:11:30.196 making eighteen thousand more dollars a year than I was. 0:11:31.556 --> 0:11:34.556 And I just the thing that kept going through my 0:11:34.556 --> 0:11:38.676 head is that's a car. That's a car every year, 0:11:39.756 --> 0:11:43.036 it's a car a year, and he gets a car. 0:11:44.716 --> 0:11:49.036 It's like terrible, It's like reverse. So I was really 0:11:49.076 --> 0:11:52.036 beside myself and I made an appointment with the boss. 0:11:52.076 --> 0:11:53.636 I forced myself. I mean I was, I was just 0:11:53.716 --> 0:11:56.596 I was so embarrassed because I had actually really tried 0:11:56.716 --> 0:11:59.116 to negotiate my salary when I had gotten this this 0:11:59.196 --> 0:12:03.556 title bump, and I had tried everything, all the things, 0:12:03.716 --> 0:12:05.636 and so I really thought that I had gotten this 0:12:05.676 --> 0:12:08.196 great salary, and then I found out that this kid, 0:12:09.236 --> 0:12:11.876 he wasn't really a kid, but this this person, why 0:12:11.956 --> 0:12:13.956 less experience? And I was had just sort of in 0:12:14.076 --> 0:12:17.756 my in my mind Waltzton for like twenty grand more, 0:12:17.796 --> 0:12:20.796 and I was just devastated. So I walked into my 0:12:21.356 --> 0:12:26.996 to my boss's office and you know, fuming and lay 0:12:27.116 --> 0:12:30.036 this out and it's kind of like, you know, jac Hughes. 0:12:30.116 --> 0:12:32.636 I was like, I know, like I know what you're paying. 0:12:32.636 --> 0:12:37.036 And he was very, very shocked and rattled. And I 0:12:37.076 --> 0:12:39.836 remember this so clearly because he looked at me and 0:12:39.956 --> 0:12:42.916 was like, well, what do you want? And I had 0:12:43.076 --> 0:12:46.956 no idea, no idea. I didn't think at all before 0:12:46.996 --> 0:12:48.996 I went into his office. I was I was super upset, 0:12:49.036 --> 0:12:50.996 which I had every right to be, and I was 0:12:51.076 --> 0:12:52.956 really angry, and I didn't think of what I wanted. 0:12:52.996 --> 0:12:55.196 I just wanted to like confront him and be like, 0:12:55.476 --> 0:13:01.476 you are terrible and I am right. And that did happen. 0:13:01.676 --> 0:13:04.836 And I when I first started reading Machiavelli, I brought 0:13:04.876 --> 0:13:09.476 my copy with the Prince for you. It's very beat up. Yes, 0:13:09.556 --> 0:13:13.756 I will, I will. He's quite eloquent. But I remember 0:13:14.076 --> 0:13:17.436 just I was like, oh my god. It was like 0:13:17.436 --> 0:13:18.716 one of those moments when I looked back and I 0:13:18.756 --> 0:13:21.076 have kind of all this power in that moment I 0:13:21.116 --> 0:13:23.036 had all this knowledge, had all this power. If I 0:13:23.116 --> 0:13:26.356 had been more thoughtful about how to approach that moment, 0:13:26.956 --> 0:13:30.756 then I really could have used that moment in a 0:13:30.876 --> 0:13:33.596 way that would have I mean, I did get a 0:13:33.676 --> 0:13:37.116 raise because of the sort of terrible confrontation, but I 0:13:37.116 --> 0:13:39.516 could have used it in a much more productive way. 0:13:39.836 --> 0:13:42.596 So you're still at that moment, you know, in the 0:13:42.636 --> 0:13:45.276 hot box, right, You're still living inside these world of 0:13:45.316 --> 0:13:50.556 these gender expectations that screw women at work basically, So 0:13:50.876 --> 0:13:54.556 are there particular moves you could have made in that 0:13:54.596 --> 0:13:57.236 setting where you had power, where you had this moment, 0:13:57.276 --> 0:13:59.036 when you could negotiate from where that would have sort 0:13:59.036 --> 0:14:02.636 of optimized it kind of in a Machiavellian way. Yeah. 0:14:02.676 --> 0:14:04.876 So what I wish I would have done is I 0:14:04.996 --> 0:14:08.316 think about it a little bit strategically. It's like, Okay, well, 0:14:08.716 --> 0:14:12.476 I know that you know, this Ralph is making twenty 0:14:12.596 --> 0:14:15.196 thousand dollars more than I am, so I also know 0:14:15.236 --> 0:14:17.116 that I have more experience, so I can walk in 0:14:17.156 --> 0:14:19.836 and say, listen, you know, I was really really excited 0:14:19.876 --> 0:14:24.436 to be promoted into this position and you had you know, 0:14:25.236 --> 0:14:27.556 I really appreciate that you you took this chance on me, 0:14:27.556 --> 0:14:29.676 and I know that's a big deal, and I know 0:14:29.756 --> 0:14:31.996 that you know weren't sure if if it would work out. 0:14:32.076 --> 0:14:34.636 But I think I've been a really strong performer now 0:14:34.676 --> 0:14:37.476 that I have established myself in this job and this 0:14:37.556 --> 0:14:39.636 is a fair workplace. I know. I think my salary 0:14:39.716 --> 0:14:43.196 really needs to be adjusted. I know what this workplace 0:14:43.196 --> 0:14:44.796 tends to pay for the kind of work I'm doing, 0:14:44.836 --> 0:14:46.316 and at the level that I'm working, I think a 0:14:46.316 --> 0:14:48.836 salary of X would be more appropriate. What do you think? 0:14:49.676 --> 0:14:51.596 And I think that would have been way better than 0:14:52.996 --> 0:14:55.116 what I did, which got me a ray. I didn't 0:14:55.116 --> 0:14:58.636 get all the way to match my mail colleague salary. 0:14:58.676 --> 0:14:59.796 I think I got, Like I think I got a 0:14:59.876 --> 0:15:02.116 raise of like ten thousand dollars or something like that, 0:15:02.196 --> 0:15:04.716 but I think I could have gotten more than twenty 0:15:04.756 --> 0:15:06.876 thousand dollars by kind of making a logical case, and 0:15:06.916 --> 0:15:09.396 I didn't. There are things you recommend in the book 0:15:09.436 --> 0:15:11.996 that you're not saying now, and like I don't know 0:15:12.036 --> 0:15:14.316 if it's because it's uncomfortable, Like you say in the 0:15:14.316 --> 0:15:16.716 book that in a negotiation like that, women should smile, 0:15:16.876 --> 0:15:18.956 which seems like a terrible I'm not going to say. 0:15:18.996 --> 0:15:20.916 I don't like it's in the book though, now, like 0:15:20.996 --> 0:15:23.556 you're you're saying all the nice things now because it's 0:15:23.556 --> 0:15:27.156 like sure, but like let's get get to the gnarly 0:15:27.356 --> 0:15:30.916 machiavellium part. Okay, the gnarly macifellium, Like smile is like 0:15:30.956 --> 0:15:35.036 a terrible thing you're not supposed to tell with a smile, right, Okay, Yeah, 0:15:35.076 --> 0:15:38.876 So it's like smile. People tend to respond better to 0:15:38.956 --> 0:15:41.836 women in negotiations when they bring up like a social connection. 0:15:41.956 --> 0:15:44.076 So it's like, oh, hey, how's it going, how is 0:15:44.116 --> 0:15:48.476 your trip to grease? Um? You smile? You don't know 0:15:48.716 --> 0:15:52.676 adversarial behavior. You keep things very positive. People really like 0:15:52.796 --> 0:15:58.076 it when women are positive and supportive and express empathy. 0:15:58.156 --> 0:16:00.156 So it's like, oh, you know, I know, I totally 0:16:00.236 --> 0:16:02.436 understand that you're dealing with a you know, a butt 0:16:02.556 --> 0:16:05.556 like a really tight budget and that's really stressful. I 0:16:05.636 --> 0:16:08.756 totally get that, you know, that kind of thing, um, 0:16:09.276 --> 0:16:12.116 and that I was reading all this stuff in these 0:16:12.196 --> 0:16:15.716 studies and I was like, oh my god, but I said, 0:16:15.836 --> 0:16:18.276 I remember I jon C. Williams wrote the scrap book 0:16:18.276 --> 0:16:20.476 What Works for Women at Work, and she was expressing 0:16:20.516 --> 0:16:21.716 to me we were talking about what to do if 0:16:21.756 --> 0:16:24.836 you're interrupted, and she was presenting like all these really 0:16:24.916 --> 0:16:27.636 terrible scenarios like saying like oh yeah, you know, Jacob, 0:16:27.636 --> 0:16:30.276 I I really you know, or if your ideas get 0:16:30.276 --> 0:16:33.596 stolen into meeting. But you know, I was like, this 0:16:33.636 --> 0:16:35.796 is really awkward. That's awful, and she was like, no, 0:16:35.876 --> 0:16:38.116 it really is. And she's like a lot of people, 0:16:38.396 --> 0:16:40.756 you know, don't want to look at this stuff. She's like, 0:16:40.836 --> 0:16:43.996 but you know, I don't necessarily want to smile. She 0:16:44.036 --> 0:16:45.876 was also talking about like wearing dresses more. One of 0:16:45.916 --> 0:16:47.516 the things she did was she would dress in a 0:16:47.556 --> 0:16:50.076 more feminine wake. She said she was brought a lot 0:16:50.156 --> 0:16:52.596 of masculine energy to work. She was a lawyer, and 0:16:52.636 --> 0:16:55.276 she said she learned she wore more dresses and I 0:16:55.356 --> 0:16:59.076 was like, that doesn't feel great. She's like, listen, you 0:16:59.116 --> 0:17:00.836 have to do what's right for you. But she's like, 0:17:00.876 --> 0:17:04.156 I think, you know, behaving as you know, as if 0:17:04.236 --> 0:17:06.116 you're living in the world as it ought to be 0:17:06.156 --> 0:17:09.916 at great personal sacrifice and retiring with less money than 0:17:09.956 --> 0:17:12.876 you should have. She's like, I can't support that. She's like, 0:17:12.916 --> 0:17:14.756 so at least she's like, I think you should be 0:17:14.756 --> 0:17:17.116 honest and Machiavelli was very much all about that. He 0:17:17.276 --> 0:17:21.036 talks a lot about you know, the way in which 0:17:21.076 --> 0:17:22.996 we live and the way we ought to live. Are 0:17:23.036 --> 0:17:27.836 things so wide asunder, is what he says. But you know, 0:17:27.876 --> 0:17:29.796 it's like the way that we should be and the 0:17:29.836 --> 0:17:32.236 way things are are not the same, and so you 0:17:32.316 --> 0:17:36.076 have to navigate, which is different for everybody, obviously, but 0:17:36.156 --> 0:17:38.476 you have to navigate the situation. So, yeah, that your 0:17:38.556 --> 0:17:41.276 negotiation might go better if you smile more, Your negotiation 0:17:41.356 --> 0:17:43.876 might go better. If you dress in a more corporate way, 0:17:44.276 --> 0:17:46.756 your negotiation might go better. If you emphasize your social 0:17:46.756 --> 0:17:49.996 connection with somebody, Your negotiation might go better, if you're 0:17:49.996 --> 0:17:52.796 really understanding and express empathy for the issues that they 0:17:52.876 --> 0:17:56.356 might be dealing with. It's a little stomach turney, yes, 0:17:56.556 --> 0:17:59.156 but I did make a promise to myself that I 0:17:59.156 --> 0:18:01.596 would lay the stuff out and be honest and at 0:18:01.636 --> 0:18:04.156 least give people the tools so that they weren't doing 0:18:04.196 --> 0:18:06.116 what I was doing, which is reading all this advice 0:18:06.156 --> 0:18:09.196 and trying it and like having you totally backfire and 0:18:09.276 --> 0:18:10.796 be like, but I did the thing in the book. 0:18:11.316 --> 0:18:12.916 At least I was like, well, at least you give 0:18:12.916 --> 0:18:17.436 people options, So yeah, that is that's the ugly truth. 0:18:19.516 --> 0:18:23.596 Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. I understand how difficult 0:18:23.636 --> 0:18:25.756 it must be for you to ask these kinds of questions. 0:18:26.676 --> 0:18:31.076 So I really, I really like you. We're gonna take 0:18:31.076 --> 0:18:32.756 a quick break. If you're in the audience here, you 0:18:32.756 --> 0:18:35.236 can get a drink. If you're listening at home, you 0:18:35.276 --> 0:18:48.676 can have an ad. We're back live from caveat in 0:18:48.716 --> 0:18:57.476 New York City. I want to do another kind of 0:18:57.516 --> 0:19:00.276 big idea and another story together, as we do, like 0:19:00.316 --> 0:19:02.196 a story and an idea. Yeah, yeah, and just to 0:19:02.236 --> 0:19:05.396 plant them together. Well, I'll say today at the office, 0:19:05.436 --> 0:19:07.796 somebody who's not here tonight, she couldn't come tonight, but 0:19:07.836 --> 0:19:10.236 she's like, oh my god, you're interviewing Stacy Vani Smith. 0:19:10.436 --> 0:19:13.476 And then she showed me a picture on her phone 0:19:14.116 --> 0:19:16.316 of a page from your book. She liked it so 0:19:16.396 --> 0:19:17.636 much she took a picture of it. I do not 0:19:17.756 --> 0:19:19.596 have to buy it, apparently, but enough to take a 0:19:19.596 --> 0:19:21.596 picture of it in the books, she said, she put 0:19:21.676 --> 0:19:26.156 on her Amazon leash list halfway there. So the page 0:19:26.276 --> 0:19:31.116 was about something called the Cinderella syndrome, or that you 0:19:31.196 --> 0:19:33.676 call the Cinderella syndrome, or that is called. And there's 0:19:33.716 --> 0:19:37.076 also a particular story in the book that I think 0:19:37.676 --> 0:19:41.756 from your own life that kind of illuminates the syndrome. 0:19:41.996 --> 0:19:44.276 So the story from the book is when you were 0:19:44.716 --> 0:19:47.316 trying to get promoted from producer to reporter. So can 0:19:47.356 --> 0:19:50.196 you sort of tell that story and then talk about, 0:19:50.476 --> 0:19:53.276 you know, how it explains the Cinderella syndrome. Yes, and 0:19:53.276 --> 0:19:56.316 then maybe we can get to the macavillin solution. Yes. Absolutely. 0:19:56.356 --> 0:19:59.436 So I was working as a producer at the time. 0:19:59.956 --> 0:20:01.796 I was an assistant producer, so I was starting out 0:20:01.796 --> 0:20:03.156 and I really really wanted to be on the air. 0:20:03.156 --> 0:20:04.596 It was the thing I had always I wanted to 0:20:04.636 --> 0:20:09.676 be a reporter, and I would I would report stories 0:20:09.716 --> 0:20:11.876 for the I was working at Marketplace at the time, 0:20:12.036 --> 0:20:13.756 and I was working in the middle of the night. 0:20:14.436 --> 0:20:15.956 I was working the Graveyard Ship, so it was it 0:20:15.996 --> 0:20:18.156 was really rough hours, but I would stay up and 0:20:18.196 --> 0:20:20.076 I would report stories and I would kind of you 0:20:20.076 --> 0:20:22.356 could do little freelance stories if you were a producer, 0:20:22.396 --> 0:20:24.836 and so I was doing this quite regularly, and every 0:20:24.876 --> 0:20:27.556 time a reporter job came up, I would apply, and 0:20:27.596 --> 0:20:29.636 I applied to like six or seven of them over 0:20:29.676 --> 0:20:32.076 a period of four years, and I just never even 0:20:32.116 --> 0:20:34.556 got an interview, even though my work was on the 0:20:34.596 --> 0:20:36.756 air pretty regularly, so they had a feeling of what 0:20:36.756 --> 0:20:39.236 I could do. I wasn't totally unqualified to be applying. 0:20:40.076 --> 0:20:45.036 And I went to the my boss, like the head 0:20:45.036 --> 0:20:47.436 of the company, and I was like, yeah, I just 0:20:48.396 --> 0:20:50.556 I just applied for like an eighth job and I'm 0:20:50.716 --> 0:20:53.516 not I'm not even getting interviews, and I'm just wondering 0:20:53.756 --> 0:20:57.956 what's going on. And he was like, well, you know, 0:20:58.156 --> 0:21:00.636 these jobs are super competitive, and you know your stuff 0:21:00.676 --> 0:21:03.556 is solid, but it lacks specialness. And I was like, 0:21:04.116 --> 0:21:07.796 I still remember specialness because that's not a word, but 0:21:07.916 --> 0:21:11.996 I really internalized that. I was like, oh, my stuff 0:21:12.076 --> 0:21:16.316 is not special enough. And of course, looking back at 0:21:16.356 --> 0:21:18.956 that through the lens of Machiavelli, I see it quite differently, 0:21:18.996 --> 0:21:21.116 but at the time I just believed him. I was like, Okay, 0:21:21.116 --> 0:21:23.556 he does not think my work is special enough. So 0:21:23.756 --> 0:21:26.516 I worked for like eight months and saved and saved 0:21:26.516 --> 0:21:27.996 and saved and saved money, and then I went in 0:21:27.996 --> 0:21:30.316 to quit my job. I was going to quit and 0:21:30.356 --> 0:21:32.756 I was gonna be a radio freelancer, which I did. 0:21:32.996 --> 0:21:34.716 So I went in to quit the job and in 0:21:34.756 --> 0:21:37.836 the meeting where I was quitting, he was like, well, 0:21:39.476 --> 0:21:42.236 why don't we put you on a reporting contract? And 0:21:42.276 --> 0:21:46.316 I was like, well, wait, I don't know if you 0:21:46.356 --> 0:21:51.956 remember this, but I'm not that special. And I was 0:21:52.036 --> 0:21:54.076 so puzzled, and I was like great, you know, I 0:21:54.156 --> 0:21:56.396 was thrilled. So I signed the contract. And of course, 0:21:56.436 --> 0:21:58.676