1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:27,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome to Caveat. We have a very special show 2 00:00:27,276 --> 00:00:29,796 Speaker 1: for you tonight. I'm Will Pearson, president of iHeart Podcast. 3 00:00:29,876 --> 00:00:32,556 Speaker 1: We are proud to be partners with Pushkin on this 4 00:00:32,676 --> 00:00:38,996 Speaker 1: very special podcast What's Your Problem with Jacob Goldstein. So 5 00:00:39,156 --> 00:00:53,156 Speaker 1: please join me and welcoming Jacob and Stacy to the stage. 6 00:00:57,116 --> 00:01:00,316 Speaker 1: Women get a raw deal at work. Men make more money, 7 00:01:00,756 --> 00:01:03,716 Speaker 1: Men run almost all of the world's biggest companies, and 8 00:01:03,796 --> 00:01:07,916 Speaker 1: men capture almost all of the dollars invested by venture capitalists. 9 00:01:08,356 --> 00:01:10,796 Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean sure, we should work to make 10 00:01:10,836 --> 00:01:14,236 Speaker 1: the world more just to bring these numbers closer to balance. 11 00:01:15,196 --> 00:01:20,116 Speaker 1: But but while we are doing that work, women still 12 00:01:20,156 --> 00:01:22,996 Speaker 1: have to go to work every day and you know, 13 00:01:23,116 --> 00:01:25,756 Speaker 1: try to get a raise, try to get promoted, try 14 00:01:25,796 --> 00:01:29,156 Speaker 1: to get the things that we all want. So while 15 00:01:29,196 --> 00:01:31,876 Speaker 1: we wait for the just world to arrive, it would 16 00:01:31,916 --> 00:01:35,516 Speaker 1: be nice to have a little help, you know, say, 17 00:01:35,956 --> 00:01:38,996 Speaker 1: a guide book, a guide book for how women can 18 00:01:39,036 --> 00:01:44,156 Speaker 1: get ahead in the male dominated workplace. As it turns out, 19 00:01:44,756 --> 00:01:48,116 Speaker 1: this book exists, and it was written more than five 20 00:01:48,276 --> 00:01:51,916 Speaker 1: hundred years ago. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is What's 21 00:01:51,916 --> 00:01:54,796 Speaker 1: Your Problem Live from Caveat on the Lower East side 22 00:01:54,836 --> 00:02:12,716 Speaker 1: of Manhattan. My guest today is Stacy Vanix Smith. Thank you. 23 00:02:12,956 --> 00:02:17,316 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to be here. Stacy is you are 24 00:02:18,076 --> 00:02:21,836 Speaker 1: the Global economics correspondent at NPR. You're my friend. We 25 00:02:21,916 --> 00:02:25,676 Speaker 1: work together at Planet Money, and most importantly for tonight's show, 26 00:02:26,116 --> 00:02:29,396 Speaker 1: you're the author of the book Machiavelli for Women, Defend 27 00:02:29,476 --> 00:02:35,276 Speaker 1: your worth, grow your ambition, and win the workplace. Yes, Stacy, 28 00:02:35,596 --> 00:02:38,836 Speaker 1: your problem, as I have defined it is this, how 29 00:02:38,876 --> 00:02:41,756 Speaker 1: can women get ahead in a workplace that is stacked 30 00:02:41,836 --> 00:02:45,396 Speaker 1: against them? Yes? I would say that's a That's a 31 00:02:45,436 --> 00:02:48,556 Speaker 1: great framing for the problem. Is that? Is it good? 32 00:02:48,676 --> 00:02:50,796 Speaker 1: So what I want to do is I want to 33 00:02:50,836 --> 00:02:54,276 Speaker 1: talk about your own career, as you do in the book, 34 00:02:54,596 --> 00:02:57,396 Speaker 1: and how some of the larger problems facing women have 35 00:02:57,476 --> 00:03:00,836 Speaker 1: come up in your own career, and how if only 36 00:03:00,876 --> 00:03:03,356 Speaker 1: you had known your Machiavelli, he would have helped you 37 00:03:03,356 --> 00:03:06,836 Speaker 1: solve those problems. But before we get to that, let's 38 00:03:06,876 --> 00:03:09,436 Speaker 1: just like give me like a little hit of Machiavelli. 39 00:03:09,516 --> 00:03:11,916 Speaker 1: Just give us the like kind of Machiavelli set up 40 00:03:12,036 --> 00:03:15,916 Speaker 1: for the bigger story. Right. Well, I had read Machiavelli 41 00:03:16,116 --> 00:03:19,916 Speaker 1: in college as part of like a political science overview class, 42 00:03:19,916 --> 00:03:23,836 Speaker 1: and I had really hated the book terribly because it's 43 00:03:23,956 --> 00:03:28,516 Speaker 1: very cynical. You know, Machiavelli does not think people are great. 44 00:03:28,836 --> 00:03:32,956 Speaker 1: Machiavelli is a little bit cynical about who people are 45 00:03:32,996 --> 00:03:36,636 Speaker 1: and the things that motivate them. But you know, I 46 00:03:36,756 --> 00:03:40,196 Speaker 1: then I went to work in the workplace and I 47 00:03:40,236 --> 00:03:43,036 Speaker 1: started thinking about Machiavelli more and more. And when I 48 00:03:43,076 --> 00:03:45,676 Speaker 1: went back and revisited the book, the book was a 49 00:03:45,676 --> 00:03:49,716 Speaker 1: little different than I had remembered it. And the premise 50 00:03:49,756 --> 00:03:51,956 Speaker 1: of the book is he's like, there are two kinds 51 00:03:51,956 --> 00:03:54,836 Speaker 1: of princes, the prince, two kinds of princes. Like they're 52 00:03:54,876 --> 00:03:57,676 Speaker 1: the princes who inherit their kingdoms, and he's like, for them, 53 00:03:57,716 --> 00:04:00,596 Speaker 1: it's pretty cushy, things are pretty easy. Everyone's like, oh yeah, 54 00:04:00,636 --> 00:04:03,276 Speaker 1: that guy's in power. And then they're the conquering princes. 55 00:04:03,316 --> 00:04:05,916 Speaker 1: And he's like, for the conquering prince's difficulties abound. They're 56 00:04:05,956 --> 00:04:08,916 Speaker 1: new to this territory, their powers being questioned constantly, why 57 00:04:08,996 --> 00:04:12,196 Speaker 1: is them? Why not me? And I was like, that 58 00:04:12,396 --> 00:04:17,116 Speaker 1: is actually a really good proxy for women and people 59 00:04:17,116 --> 00:04:19,676 Speaker 1: of color and other marginalized workers in the workplace because 60 00:04:19,956 --> 00:04:25,196 Speaker 1: we're in the workplace, right like, but the difficulties abound. 61 00:04:25,196 --> 00:04:27,356 Speaker 1: We're getting questioned and pushed back and all that stuff. 62 00:04:27,396 --> 00:04:29,996 Speaker 1: So I actually thought it was a really beautiful approach. 63 00:04:30,516 --> 00:04:33,116 Speaker 1: It didn't seem cynical to me, per se. I mean, 64 00:04:33,156 --> 00:04:36,796 Speaker 1: he is a little cynical about people, truly. But what 65 00:04:36,956 --> 00:04:41,556 Speaker 1: interested me was that his whole idea is that you 66 00:04:41,676 --> 00:04:46,316 Speaker 1: take remove emotion from situations and approach everything logically. And 67 00:04:46,436 --> 00:04:50,236 Speaker 1: I actually found that very very helpful when approaching issues 68 00:04:50,516 --> 00:04:54,836 Speaker 1: of unfairness in the workplace and the workplace in general, 69 00:04:55,156 --> 00:04:57,196 Speaker 1: which can be kind of an emotional place. But I 70 00:04:57,236 --> 00:05:00,596 Speaker 1: found it very a very useful way to start and 71 00:05:00,676 --> 00:05:03,316 Speaker 1: approach issues at work. Yeah, I mean, it seems like 72 00:05:03,356 --> 00:05:07,036 Speaker 1: one of the things in your book and in Matthiavelli 73 00:05:07,356 --> 00:05:11,556 Speaker 1: is it's sort of the ugly truth, right like. And 74 00:05:11,796 --> 00:05:13,716 Speaker 1: and this comes through in the in the book and 75 00:05:13,716 --> 00:05:15,436 Speaker 1: the things you recommend, I mean as well, get to 76 00:05:15,636 --> 00:05:18,716 Speaker 1: it's like, it's not dealing with the world as we 77 00:05:18,796 --> 00:05:21,276 Speaker 1: want it to be, right and the solutions are not 78 00:05:21,356 --> 00:05:24,796 Speaker 1: the kind of solutions we would want, right It's it's 79 00:05:25,276 --> 00:05:28,996 Speaker 1: it's kind of grim but maybe effective. Yes, Well, I 80 00:05:29,036 --> 00:05:31,516 Speaker 1: started looking at a lot of the research around this 81 00:05:31,556 --> 00:05:35,196 Speaker 1: because I'm a big homework person. I've always been good 82 00:05:35,196 --> 00:05:38,156 Speaker 1: about doing homework. So when I would come up against 83 00:05:38,156 --> 00:05:41,196 Speaker 1: issues in my job and my career, for instance, I 84 00:05:41,676 --> 00:05:44,716 Speaker 1: really don't like negotiating, so I would read books about 85 00:05:44,756 --> 00:05:47,316 Speaker 1: how to negotiate. I would do homework, and then I 86 00:05:47,316 --> 00:05:50,716 Speaker 1: would try the things in the books and they would 87 00:05:50,756 --> 00:05:53,636 Speaker 1: not work. I'm one. In one instance, it was like, 88 00:05:53,676 --> 00:05:55,276 Speaker 1: you know, you need to talk yourself up. You need 89 00:05:55,316 --> 00:05:59,156 Speaker 1: to go into your you know, your review and basically 90 00:05:59,276 --> 00:06:01,396 Speaker 1: kind of list off all of your accomplishments. And I 91 00:06:01,476 --> 00:06:04,636 Speaker 1: did that and it didn't feel great, but I you know, 92 00:06:04,676 --> 00:06:06,516 Speaker 1: I did the thing because it was what the book 93 00:06:06,556 --> 00:06:12,356 Speaker 1: said to do, and it sure's reaction was wow, you 94 00:06:12,356 --> 00:06:16,236 Speaker 1: certainly think a lot of yourself. And then I just 95 00:06:16,276 --> 00:06:18,476 Speaker 1: spent the whole time trying not to cry and definitely 96 00:06:18,516 --> 00:06:20,916 Speaker 1: didn't ask for a raise. I know it was it was. 97 00:06:21,236 --> 00:06:24,676 Speaker 1: It was rough, but but I realized that a lot 98 00:06:24,716 --> 00:06:27,236 Speaker 1: of the advice that should work, and that should work, right, 99 00:06:27,276 --> 00:06:30,276 Speaker 1: it actually does work for men if you look at 100 00:06:30,276 --> 00:06:32,156 Speaker 1: there's a lot of research about this stuff, which was 101 00:06:32,276 --> 00:06:35,276 Speaker 1: very very helpful to me. It does work for men, 102 00:06:36,276 --> 00:06:38,116 Speaker 1: but if when women do it, it does tend to 103 00:06:38,116 --> 00:06:42,676 Speaker 1: backfire because people have different expectations often when they're talking 104 00:06:42,716 --> 00:06:45,876 Speaker 1: to different people, and so if you do one thing 105 00:06:46,836 --> 00:06:50,396 Speaker 1: and I do another, the reaction is often going to 106 00:06:50,436 --> 00:06:52,516 Speaker 1: be quite different. And so I wanted to acknowledge the 107 00:06:52,556 --> 00:06:55,596 Speaker 1: reality of that is that okay, No, it's not okay. 108 00:06:55,636 --> 00:06:57,996 Speaker 1: Like if you go in and list off your accomplishments 109 00:06:57,996 --> 00:07:00,036 Speaker 1: and they're like, you know what, Jacob, you're right, like 110 00:07:00,116 --> 00:07:01,916 Speaker 1: you really have achieved a lot, and I go in 111 00:07:01,916 --> 00:07:03,476 Speaker 1: and they're like, wow, you think a lot of yourself. 112 00:07:03,516 --> 00:07:06,676 Speaker 1: That isn't okay, but it is the reality. So how 113 00:07:07,156 --> 00:07:10,036 Speaker 1: should I deal with that? As you say, in workplace 114 00:07:10,036 --> 00:07:13,756 Speaker 1: where I want to raise and you know, maybe I'm 115 00:07:13,756 --> 00:07:15,596 Speaker 1: not in a position to sort of change the whole 116 00:07:15,596 --> 00:07:19,796 Speaker 1: structure of the workplace. So there's this metaphor really that 117 00:07:19,836 --> 00:07:23,316 Speaker 1: you use in the book to describe this double bind 118 00:07:23,436 --> 00:07:28,236 Speaker 1: basically that women are in right where if you do 119 00:07:28,356 --> 00:07:31,476 Speaker 1: things that would seem compelling in a man, you're looked 120 00:07:31,516 --> 00:07:33,436 Speaker 1: down on, and if you don't then you don't get 121 00:07:33,436 --> 00:07:35,676 Speaker 1: the raise either. So it's sort of a lose lose situation, 122 00:07:35,756 --> 00:07:38,236 Speaker 1: right And you call it the hot box, yes, which 123 00:07:38,716 --> 00:07:40,956 Speaker 1: apparently is a different meaning where you grew up than 124 00:07:40,996 --> 00:07:44,876 Speaker 1: where I grew up, because where I grew up, you 125 00:07:44,876 --> 00:07:46,676 Speaker 1: know what I'm gonna say, Where I grew up, hot 126 00:07:46,676 --> 00:07:49,676 Speaker 1: boxing was smoking weed in the car with the windows up, 127 00:07:49,716 --> 00:07:52,956 Speaker 1: which is not what you mean. Right in in Boise, Idaho, 128 00:07:53,036 --> 00:07:57,836 Speaker 1: your hometown, the hot box is what it is. I 129 00:07:58,036 --> 00:08:00,636 Speaker 1: was like a t ball term, like a baseball term. 130 00:08:00,716 --> 00:08:04,476 Speaker 1: So what happened much more wholesome place very well, I 131 00:08:04,516 --> 00:08:07,836 Speaker 1: don't know about that, but but yeah, so I was 132 00:08:07,876 --> 00:08:10,836 Speaker 1: on a t ball team. Is really terrible at t ball, 133 00:08:10,916 --> 00:08:13,396 Speaker 1: but I would get a hit every once in a while. 134 00:08:13,476 --> 00:08:16,636 Speaker 1: But it's a term for if you're caught between bases essentially, 135 00:08:16,676 --> 00:08:18,876 Speaker 1: so if you're like running between second and third base 136 00:08:19,156 --> 00:08:22,596 Speaker 1: and the second baseman gets the ball and like basically 137 00:08:22,596 --> 00:08:24,436 Speaker 1: they can throw it back and forth between second and 138 00:08:24,476 --> 00:08:27,756 Speaker 1: third base and you're not out. You're in between the bases, 139 00:08:27,956 --> 00:08:31,436 Speaker 1: but you're doomed. It's not good. There's no where you 140 00:08:31,516 --> 00:08:33,436 Speaker 1: can go. There's no where you can go your track. Okay, 141 00:08:33,436 --> 00:08:35,836 Speaker 1: so that's the I think. Did you say where you 142 00:08:35,916 --> 00:08:37,716 Speaker 1: group they called it a pickle. Yeah, they called it 143 00:08:37,756 --> 00:08:41,796 Speaker 1: a pickle. It's just it's lightful. It applies as well, right, 144 00:08:41,836 --> 00:08:44,716 Speaker 1: so so how does this map to women in the workplace. 145 00:08:45,116 --> 00:08:48,556 Speaker 1: So what happens is when women get into leadership positions, 146 00:08:49,636 --> 00:08:53,156 Speaker 1: they run into this issue where the things that people 147 00:08:53,276 --> 00:08:56,116 Speaker 1: like to see in leaders are people that don't care 148 00:08:56,116 --> 00:08:58,356 Speaker 1: that much to what other people think, people who are decisive, 149 00:08:58,476 --> 00:09:01,036 Speaker 1: people who will speak up and take credit for their actions, 150 00:09:01,476 --> 00:09:04,636 Speaker 1: people who are assertive and will push back. So those 151 00:09:04,636 --> 00:09:06,316 Speaker 1: are the qualities people want to see in a leader. 152 00:09:06,356 --> 00:09:08,316 Speaker 1: Those are things that inspire people when it comes to 153 00:09:08,396 --> 00:09:11,196 Speaker 1: leaders and those line up almost exactly with the qualities 154 00:09:11,196 --> 00:09:14,436 Speaker 1: people also admire in men. The problem is when you 155 00:09:14,476 --> 00:09:17,436 Speaker 1: are a woman and you do those things the qualities 156 00:09:17,476 --> 00:09:19,956 Speaker 1: that people associate with a quote unquote good woman, and 157 00:09:20,036 --> 00:09:25,836 Speaker 1: those are things like nurturing, humble, compassionate, sympathetic, supportive. Those 158 00:09:25,836 --> 00:09:30,876 Speaker 1: are all really beautiful qualities also, but you can't really 159 00:09:30,996 --> 00:09:34,076 Speaker 1: use them in a leadership position all the time. So 160 00:09:34,276 --> 00:09:36,916 Speaker 1: when women get into leadership positions, they're in a situation, 161 00:09:37,356 --> 00:09:43,436 Speaker 1: the hot box, the pickle where if they sort of 162 00:09:43,436 --> 00:09:48,556 Speaker 1: behave in traditionally more feminine ways, they are considered bad leaders. 163 00:09:48,636 --> 00:09:51,916 Speaker 1: Right if you're compassionate and supportive and gentle and kind, 164 00:09:52,876 --> 00:09:55,876 Speaker 1: that doesn't work as a leader. But then when women 165 00:09:55,996 --> 00:09:58,636 Speaker 1: will try to display more masculine traits, they will be 166 00:09:58,756 --> 00:10:01,516 Speaker 1: very deeply disliked. And you see this a lot of 167 00:10:01,516 --> 00:10:04,916 Speaker 1: times with female politicians, like very kind of pronounced cases. 168 00:10:04,996 --> 00:10:08,116 Speaker 1: So you end up in a situation where if you 169 00:10:08,236 --> 00:10:11,756 Speaker 1: kind of can't. So I feel like, for me, this 170 00:10:11,876 --> 00:10:15,996 Speaker 1: was like the really big central idea that I took 171 00:10:16,036 --> 00:10:18,876 Speaker 1: from the book because it just framed so much and 172 00:10:18,956 --> 00:10:22,876 Speaker 1: it seems so pernicious. But then what I found really 173 00:10:22,876 --> 00:10:27,636 Speaker 1: interesting was these ways you enumerate of not solving the 174 00:10:27,716 --> 00:10:30,516 Speaker 1: larger problem but dealing with it right, of how to 175 00:10:30,596 --> 00:10:33,876 Speaker 1: live in this unjust world as a professional woman basically. 176 00:10:33,916 --> 00:10:36,436 Speaker 1: And so I thought we could walk through some of 177 00:10:36,476 --> 00:10:39,356 Speaker 1: the moments from your career that you talk about in 178 00:10:39,356 --> 00:10:41,916 Speaker 1: the book, from before you had you know, the wisdom 179 00:10:41,916 --> 00:10:44,636 Speaker 1: of Machiavelli at your fingertips, and sort of walk through 180 00:10:44,636 --> 00:10:47,676 Speaker 1: what happened, and then you know what would Mackievelli do 181 00:10:47,836 --> 00:10:51,436 Speaker 1: basically or have done. So there's one you talk about 182 00:10:51,476 --> 00:10:54,516 Speaker 1: where it's relatively early in your career and you find 183 00:10:54,556 --> 00:10:58,236 Speaker 1: out a male colleague with a similar job is making 184 00:10:58,356 --> 00:11:00,596 Speaker 1: a lot more money than you, Like, tell me tell 185 00:11:00,596 --> 00:11:03,036 Speaker 1: me that one. Yes, So I found out. So this 186 00:11:03,116 --> 00:11:05,596 Speaker 1: is when I had first become a reporter, and I 187 00:11:05,676 --> 00:11:07,476 Speaker 1: was very very excited to become a reporter. I had 188 00:11:07,516 --> 00:11:09,356 Speaker 1: been a producer and it can be kind of a 189 00:11:09,396 --> 00:11:11,636 Speaker 1: hard jump to make. Really wanted to make it. And 190 00:11:11,676 --> 00:11:16,436 Speaker 1: I found out I was a reporter. And shortly after that, 191 00:11:17,116 --> 00:11:20,316 Speaker 1: a male colleague was promoted and he, I think four 192 00:11:20,476 --> 00:11:23,756 Speaker 1: or five years less experience than I did. And I 193 00:11:23,836 --> 00:11:26,836 Speaker 1: found out through a series of events that he was 194 00:11:26,916 --> 00:11:30,196 Speaker 1: making eighteen thousand more dollars a year than I was. 195 00:11:31,556 --> 00:11:34,556 Speaker 1: And I just the thing that kept going through my 196 00:11:34,556 --> 00:11:38,676 Speaker 1: head is that's a car. That's a car every year, 197 00:11:39,756 --> 00:11:43,036 Speaker 1: it's a car a year, and he gets a car. 198 00:11:44,716 --> 00:11:49,036 Speaker 1: It's like terrible, It's like reverse. So I was really 199 00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:52,036 Speaker 1: beside myself and I made an appointment with the boss. 200 00:11:52,076 --> 00:11:53,636 Speaker 1: I forced myself. I mean I was, I was just 201 00:11:53,716 --> 00:11:56,596 Speaker 1: I was so embarrassed because I had actually really tried 202 00:11:56,716 --> 00:11:59,116 Speaker 1: to negotiate my salary when I had gotten this this 203 00:11:59,196 --> 00:12:03,556 Speaker 1: title bump, and I had tried everything, all the things, 204 00:12:03,716 --> 00:12:05,636 Speaker 1: and so I really thought that I had gotten this 205 00:12:05,676 --> 00:12:08,196 Speaker 1: great salary, and then I found out that this kid, 206 00:12:09,236 --> 00:12:11,876 Speaker 1: he wasn't really a kid, but this this person, why 207 00:12:11,956 --> 00:12:13,956 Speaker 1: less experience? And I was had just sort of in 208 00:12:14,076 --> 00:12:17,756 Speaker 1: my in my mind Waltzton for like twenty grand more, 209 00:12:17,796 --> 00:12:20,796 Speaker 1: and I was just devastated. So I walked into my 210 00:12:21,356 --> 00:12:26,996 Speaker 1: to my boss's office and you know, fuming and lay 211 00:12:27,116 --> 00:12:30,036 Speaker 1: this out and it's kind of like, you know, jac Hughes. 212 00:12:30,116 --> 00:12:32,636 Speaker 1: I was like, I know, like I know what you're paying. 213 00:12:32,636 --> 00:12:37,036 Speaker 1: And he was very, very shocked and rattled. And I 214 00:12:37,076 --> 00:12:39,836 Speaker 1: remember this so clearly because he looked at me and 215 00:12:39,956 --> 00:12:42,916 Speaker 1: was like, well, what do you want? And I had 216 00:12:43,076 --> 00:12:46,956 Speaker 1: no idea, no idea. I didn't think at all before 217 00:12:46,996 --> 00:12:48,996 Speaker 1: I went into his office. I was I was super upset, 218 00:12:49,036 --> 00:12:50,996 Speaker 1: which I had every right to be, and I was 219 00:12:51,076 --> 00:12:52,956 Speaker 1: really angry, and I didn't think of what I wanted. 220 00:12:52,996 --> 00:12:55,196 Speaker 1: I just wanted to like confront him and be like, 221 00:12:55,476 --> 00:13:01,476 Speaker 1: you are terrible and I am right. And that did happen. 222 00:13:01,676 --> 00:13:04,836 Speaker 1: And I when I first started reading Machiavelli, I brought 223 00:13:04,876 --> 00:13:09,476 Speaker 1: my copy with the Prince for you. It's very beat up. Yes, 224 00:13:09,556 --> 00:13:13,756 Speaker 1: I will, I will. He's quite eloquent. But I remember 225 00:13:14,076 --> 00:13:17,436 Speaker 1: just I was like, oh my god. It was like 226 00:13:17,436 --> 00:13:18,716 Speaker 1: one of those moments when I looked back and I 227 00:13:18,756 --> 00:13:21,076 Speaker 1: have kind of all this power in that moment I 228 00:13:21,116 --> 00:13:23,036 Speaker 1: had all this knowledge, had all this power. If I 229 00:13:23,116 --> 00:13:26,356 Speaker 1: had been more thoughtful about how to approach that moment, 230 00:13:26,956 --> 00:13:30,756 Speaker 1: then I really could have used that moment in a 231 00:13:30,876 --> 00:13:33,596 Speaker 1: way that would have I mean, I did get a 232 00:13:33,676 --> 00:13:37,116 Speaker 1: raise because of the sort of terrible confrontation, but I 233 00:13:37,116 --> 00:13:39,516 Speaker 1: could have used it in a much more productive way. 234 00:13:39,836 --> 00:13:42,596 Speaker 1: So you're still at that moment, you know, in the 235 00:13:42,636 --> 00:13:45,276 Speaker 1: hot box, right, You're still living inside these world of 236 00:13:45,316 --> 00:13:50,556 Speaker 1: these gender expectations that screw women at work basically, So 237 00:13:50,876 --> 00:13:54,556 Speaker 1: are there particular moves you could have made in that 238 00:13:54,596 --> 00:13:57,236 Speaker 1: setting where you had power, where you had this moment, 239 00:13:57,276 --> 00:13:59,036 Speaker 1: when you could negotiate from where that would have sort 240 00:13:59,036 --> 00:14:02,636 Speaker 1: of optimized it kind of in a Machiavellian way. Yeah. 241 00:14:02,676 --> 00:14:04,876 Speaker 1: So what I wish I would have done is I 242 00:14:04,996 --> 00:14:08,316 Speaker 1: think about it a little bit strategically. It's like, Okay, well, 243 00:14:08,716 --> 00:14:12,476 Speaker 1: I know that you know, this Ralph is making twenty 244 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:15,196 Speaker 1: thousand dollars more than I am, so I also know 245 00:14:15,236 --> 00:14:17,116 Speaker 1: that I have more experience, so I can walk in 246 00:14:17,156 --> 00:14:19,836 Speaker 1: and say, listen, you know, I was really really excited 247 00:14:19,876 --> 00:14:24,436 Speaker 1: to be promoted into this position and you had you know, 248 00:14:25,236 --> 00:14:27,556 Speaker 1: I really appreciate that you you took this chance on me, 249 00:14:27,556 --> 00:14:29,676 Speaker 1: and I know that's a big deal, and I know 250 00:14:29,756 --> 00:14:31,996 Speaker 1: that you know weren't sure if if it would work out. 251 00:14:32,076 --> 00:14:34,636 Speaker 1: But I think I've been a really strong performer now 252 00:14:34,676 --> 00:14:37,476 Speaker 1: that I have established myself in this job and this 253 00:14:37,556 --> 00:14:39,636 Speaker 1: is a fair workplace. I know. I think my salary 254 00:14:39,716 --> 00:14:43,196 Speaker 1: really needs to be adjusted. I know what this workplace 255 00:14:43,196 --> 00:14:44,796 Speaker 1: tends to pay for the kind of work I'm doing, 256 00:14:44,836 --> 00:14:46,316 Speaker 1: and at the level that I'm working, I think a 257 00:14:46,316 --> 00:14:48,836 Speaker 1: salary of X would be more appropriate. What do you think? 258 00:14:49,676 --> 00:14:51,596 Speaker 1: And I think that would have been way better than 259 00:14:52,996 --> 00:14:55,116 Speaker 1: what I did, which got me a ray. I didn't 260 00:14:55,116 --> 00:14:58,636 Speaker 1: get all the way to match my mail colleague salary. 261 00:14:58,676 --> 00:14:59,796 Speaker 1: I think I got, Like I think I got a 262 00:14:59,876 --> 00:15:02,116 Speaker 1: raise of like ten thousand dollars or something like that, 263 00:15:02,196 --> 00:15:04,716 Speaker 1: but I think I could have gotten more than twenty 264 00:15:04,756 --> 00:15:06,876 Speaker 1: thousand dollars by kind of making a logical case, and 265 00:15:06,916 --> 00:15:09,396 Speaker 1: I didn't. There are things you recommend in the book 266 00:15:09,436 --> 00:15:11,996 Speaker 1: that you're not saying now, and like I don't know 267 00:15:12,036 --> 00:15:14,316 Speaker 1: if it's because it's uncomfortable, Like you say in the 268 00:15:14,316 --> 00:15:16,716 Speaker 1: book that in a negotiation like that, women should smile, 269 00:15:16,876 --> 00:15:18,956 Speaker 1: which seems like a terrible I'm not going to say. 270 00:15:18,996 --> 00:15:20,916 Speaker 1: I don't like it's in the book though, now, like 271 00:15:20,996 --> 00:15:23,556 Speaker 1: you're you're saying all the nice things now because it's 272 00:15:23,556 --> 00:15:27,156 Speaker 1: like sure, but like let's get get to the gnarly 273 00:15:27,356 --> 00:15:30,916 Speaker 1: machiavellium part. Okay, the gnarly macifellium, Like smile is like 274 00:15:30,956 --> 00:15:35,036 Speaker 1: a terrible thing you're not supposed to tell with a smile, right, Okay, Yeah, 275 00:15:35,076 --> 00:15:38,876 Speaker 1: So it's like smile. People tend to respond better to 276 00:15:38,956 --> 00:15:41,836 Speaker 1: women in negotiations when they bring up like a social connection. 277 00:15:41,956 --> 00:15:44,076 Speaker 1: So it's like, oh, hey, how's it going, how is 278 00:15:44,116 --> 00:15:48,476 Speaker 1: your trip to grease? Um? You smile? You don't know 279 00:15:48,716 --> 00:15:52,676 Speaker 1: adversarial behavior. You keep things very positive. People really like 280 00:15:52,796 --> 00:15:58,076 Speaker 1: it when women are positive and supportive and express empathy. 281 00:15:58,156 --> 00:16:00,156 Speaker 1: So it's like, oh, you know, I know, I totally 282 00:16:00,236 --> 00:16:02,436 Speaker 1: understand that you're dealing with a you know, a butt 283 00:16:02,556 --> 00:16:05,556 Speaker 1: like a really tight budget and that's really stressful. I 284 00:16:05,636 --> 00:16:08,756 Speaker 1: totally get that, you know, that kind of thing, um, 285 00:16:09,276 --> 00:16:12,116 Speaker 1: and that I was reading all this stuff in these 286 00:16:12,196 --> 00:16:15,716 Speaker 1: studies and I was like, oh my god, but I said, 287 00:16:15,836 --> 00:16:18,276 Speaker 1: I remember I jon C. Williams wrote the scrap book 288 00:16:18,276 --> 00:16:20,476 Speaker 1: What Works for Women at Work, and she was expressing 289 00:16:20,516 --> 00:16:21,716 Speaker 1: to me we were talking about what to do if 290 00:16:21,756 --> 00:16:24,836 Speaker 1: you're interrupted, and she was presenting like all these really 291 00:16:24,916 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 1: terrible scenarios like saying like oh yeah, you know, Jacob, 292 00:16:27,636 --> 00:16:30,276 Speaker 1: I I really you know, or if your ideas get 293 00:16:30,276 --> 00:16:33,596 Speaker 1: stolen into meeting. But you know, I was like, this 294 00:16:33,636 --> 00:16:35,796 Speaker 1: is really awkward. That's awful, and she was like, no, 295 00:16:35,876 --> 00:16:38,116 Speaker 1: it really is. And she's like a lot of people, 296 00:16:38,396 --> 00:16:40,756 Speaker 1: you know, don't want to look at this stuff. She's like, 297 00:16:40,836 --> 00:16:43,996 Speaker 1: but you know, I don't necessarily want to smile. She 298 00:16:44,036 --> 00:16:45,876 Speaker 1: was also talking about like wearing dresses more. One of 299 00:16:45,916 --> 00:16:47,516 Speaker 1: the things she did was she would dress in a 300 00:16:47,556 --> 00:16:50,076 Speaker 1: more feminine wake. She said she was brought a lot 301 00:16:50,156 --> 00:16:52,596 Speaker 1: of masculine energy to work. She was a lawyer, and 302 00:16:52,636 --> 00:16:55,276 Speaker 1: she said she learned she wore more dresses and I 303 00:16:55,356 --> 00:16:59,076 Speaker 1: was like, that doesn't feel great. She's like, listen, you 304 00:16:59,116 --> 00:17:00,836 Speaker 1: have to do what's right for you. But she's like, 305 00:17:00,876 --> 00:17:04,156 Speaker 1: I think, you know, behaving as you know, as if 306 00:17:04,236 --> 00:17:06,116 Speaker 1: you're living in the world as it ought to be 307 00:17:06,156 --> 00:17:09,916 Speaker 1: at great personal sacrifice and retiring with less money than 308 00:17:09,956 --> 00:17:12,876 Speaker 1: you should have. She's like, I can't support that. She's like, 309 00:17:12,916 --> 00:17:14,756 Speaker 1: so at least she's like, I think you should be 310 00:17:14,756 --> 00:17:17,116 Speaker 1: honest and Machiavelli was very much all about that. He 311 00:17:17,276 --> 00:17:21,036 Speaker 1: talks a lot about you know, the way in which 312 00:17:21,076 --> 00:17:22,996 Speaker 1: we live and the way we ought to live. Are 313 00:17:23,036 --> 00:17:27,836 Speaker 1: things so wide asunder, is what he says. But you know, 314 00:17:27,876 --> 00:17:29,796 Speaker 1: it's like the way that we should be and the 315 00:17:29,836 --> 00:17:32,236 Speaker 1: way things are are not the same, and so you 316 00:17:32,316 --> 00:17:36,076 Speaker 1: have to navigate, which is different for everybody, obviously, but 317 00:17:36,156 --> 00:17:38,476 Speaker 1: you have to navigate the situation. So, yeah, that your 318 00:17:38,556 --> 00:17:41,276 Speaker 1: negotiation might go better if you smile more, Your negotiation 319 00:17:41,356 --> 00:17:43,876 Speaker 1: might go better. If you dress in a more corporate way, 320 00:17:44,276 --> 00:17:46,756 Speaker 1: your negotiation might go better. If you emphasize your social 321 00:17:46,756 --> 00:17:49,996 Speaker 1: connection with somebody, Your negotiation might go better, if you're 322 00:17:49,996 --> 00:17:52,796 Speaker 1: really understanding and express empathy for the issues that they 323 00:17:52,876 --> 00:17:56,356 Speaker 1: might be dealing with. It's a little stomach turney, yes, 324 00:17:56,556 --> 00:17:59,156 Speaker 1: but I did make a promise to myself that I 325 00:17:59,156 --> 00:18:01,596 Speaker 1: would lay the stuff out and be honest and at 326 00:18:01,636 --> 00:18:04,156 Speaker 1: least give people the tools so that they weren't doing 327 00:18:04,196 --> 00:18:06,116 Speaker 1: what I was doing, which is reading all this advice 328 00:18:06,156 --> 00:18:09,196 Speaker 1: and trying it and like having you totally backfire and 329 00:18:09,276 --> 00:18:10,796 Speaker 1: be like, but I did the thing in the book. 330 00:18:11,316 --> 00:18:12,916 Speaker 1: At least I was like, well, at least you give 331 00:18:12,916 --> 00:18:17,436 Speaker 1: people options, So yeah, that is that's the ugly truth. 332 00:18:19,516 --> 00:18:23,596 Speaker 1: Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. I understand how difficult 333 00:18:23,636 --> 00:18:25,756 Speaker 1: it must be for you to ask these kinds of questions. 334 00:18:26,676 --> 00:18:31,076 Speaker 1: So I really, I really like you. We're gonna take 335 00:18:31,076 --> 00:18:32,756 Speaker 1: a quick break. If you're in the audience here, you 336 00:18:32,756 --> 00:18:35,236 Speaker 1: can get a drink. If you're listening at home, you 337 00:18:35,276 --> 00:18:48,676 Speaker 1: can have an ad. We're back live from caveat in 338 00:18:48,716 --> 00:18:57,476 Speaker 1: New York City. I want to do another kind of 339 00:18:57,516 --> 00:19:00,276 Speaker 1: big idea and another story together, as we do, like 340 00:19:00,316 --> 00:19:02,196 Speaker 1: a story and an idea. Yeah, yeah, and just to 341 00:19:02,236 --> 00:19:05,396 Speaker 1: plant them together. Well, I'll say today at the office, 342 00:19:05,436 --> 00:19:07,796 Speaker 1: somebody who's not here tonight, she couldn't come tonight, but 343 00:19:07,836 --> 00:19:10,236 Speaker 1: she's like, oh my god, you're interviewing Stacy Vani Smith. 344 00:19:10,436 --> 00:19:13,476 Speaker 1: And then she showed me a picture on her phone 345 00:19:14,116 --> 00:19:16,316 Speaker 1: of a page from your book. She liked it so 346 00:19:16,396 --> 00:19:17,636 Speaker 1: much she took a picture of it. I do not 347 00:19:17,756 --> 00:19:19,596 Speaker 1: have to buy it, apparently, but enough to take a 348 00:19:19,596 --> 00:19:21,596 Speaker 1: picture of it in the books, she said, she put 349 00:19:21,676 --> 00:19:26,156 Speaker 1: on her Amazon leash list halfway there. So the page 350 00:19:26,276 --> 00:19:31,116 Speaker 1: was about something called the Cinderella syndrome, or that you 351 00:19:31,196 --> 00:19:33,676 Speaker 1: call the Cinderella syndrome, or that is called. And there's 352 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:37,076 Speaker 1: also a particular story in the book that I think 353 00:19:37,676 --> 00:19:41,756 Speaker 1: from your own life that kind of illuminates the syndrome. 354 00:19:41,996 --> 00:19:44,276 Speaker 1: So the story from the book is when you were 355 00:19:44,716 --> 00:19:47,316 Speaker 1: trying to get promoted from producer to reporter. So can 356 00:19:47,356 --> 00:19:50,196 Speaker 1: you sort of tell that story and then talk about, 357 00:19:50,476 --> 00:19:53,276 Speaker 1: you know, how it explains the Cinderella syndrome. Yes, and 358 00:19:53,276 --> 00:19:56,316 Speaker 1: then maybe we can get to the macavillin solution. Yes. Absolutely. 359 00:19:56,356 --> 00:19:59,436 Speaker 1: So I was working as a producer at the time. 360 00:19:59,956 --> 00:20:01,796 Speaker 1: I was an assistant producer, so I was starting out 361 00:20:01,796 --> 00:20:03,156 Speaker 1: and I really really wanted to be on the air. 362 00:20:03,156 --> 00:20:04,596 Speaker 1: It was the thing I had always I wanted to 363 00:20:04,636 --> 00:20:09,676 Speaker 1: be a reporter, and I would I would report stories 364 00:20:09,716 --> 00:20:11,876 Speaker 1: for the I was working at Marketplace at the time, 365 00:20:12,036 --> 00:20:13,756 Speaker 1: and I was working in the middle of the night. 366 00:20:14,436 --> 00:20:15,956 Speaker 1: I was working the Graveyard Ship, so it was it 367 00:20:15,996 --> 00:20:18,156 Speaker 1: was really rough hours, but I would stay up and 368 00:20:18,196 --> 00:20:20,076 Speaker 1: I would report stories and I would kind of you 369 00:20:20,076 --> 00:20:22,356 Speaker 1: could do little freelance stories if you were a producer, 370 00:20:22,396 --> 00:20:24,836 Speaker 1: and so I was doing this quite regularly, and every 371 00:20:24,876 --> 00:20:27,556 Speaker 1: time a reporter job came up, I would apply, and 372 00:20:27,596 --> 00:20:29,636 Speaker 1: I applied to like six or seven of them over 373 00:20:29,676 --> 00:20:32,076 Speaker 1: a period of four years, and I just never even 374 00:20:32,116 --> 00:20:34,556 Speaker 1: got an interview, even though my work was on the 375 00:20:34,596 --> 00:20:36,756 Speaker 1: air pretty regularly, so they had a feeling of what 376 00:20:36,756 --> 00:20:39,236 Speaker 1: I could do. I wasn't totally unqualified to be applying. 377 00:20:40,076 --> 00:20:45,036 Speaker 1: And I went to the my boss, like the head 378 00:20:45,036 --> 00:20:47,436 Speaker 1: of the company, and I was like, yeah, I just 379 00:20:48,396 --> 00:20:50,556 Speaker 1: I just applied for like an eighth job and I'm 380 00:20:50,716 --> 00:20:53,516 Speaker 1: not I'm not even getting interviews, and I'm just wondering 381 00:20:53,756 --> 00:20:57,956 Speaker 1: what's going on. And he was like, well, you know, 382 00:20:58,156 --> 00:21:00,636 Speaker 1: these jobs are super competitive, and you know your stuff 383 00:21:00,676 --> 00:21:03,556 Speaker 1: is solid, but it lacks specialness. And I was like, 384 00:21:04,116 --> 00:21:07,796 Speaker 1: I still remember specialness because that's not a word, but 385 00:21:07,916 --> 00:21:11,996 Speaker 1: I really internalized that. I was like, oh, my stuff 386 00:21:12,076 --> 00:21:16,316 Speaker 1: is not special enough. And of course, looking back at 387 00:21:16,356 --> 00:21:18,956 Speaker 1: that through the lens of Machiavelli, I see it quite differently, 388 00:21:18,996 --> 00:21:21,116 Speaker 1: but at the time I just believed him. I was like, Okay, 389 00:21:21,116 --> 00:21:23,556 Speaker 1: he does not think my work is special enough. So 390 00:21:23,756 --> 00:21:26,516 Speaker 1: I worked for like eight months and saved and saved 391 00:21:26,516 --> 00:21:27,996 Speaker 1: and saved and saved money, and then I went in 392 00:21:27,996 --> 00:21:30,316 Speaker 1: to quit my job. I was going to quit and 393 00:21:30,356 --> 00:21:32,756 Speaker 1: I was gonna be a radio freelancer, which I did. 394 00:21:32,996 --> 00:21:34,716 Speaker 1: So I went in to quit the job and in 395 00:21:34,756 --> 00:21:37,836 Speaker 1: the meeting where I was quitting, he was like, well, 396 00:21:39,476 --> 00:21:42,236 Speaker 1: why don't we put you on a reporting contract? And 397 00:21:42,276 --> 00:21:46,316 Speaker 1: I was like, well, wait, I don't know if you 398 00:21:46,356 --> 00:21:51,956 Speaker 1: remember this, but I'm not that special. And I was 399 00:21:52,036 --> 00:21:54,076 Speaker 1: so puzzled, and I was like great, you know, I 400 00:21:54,156 --> 00:21:56,396 Speaker 1: was thrilled. So I signed the contract. And of course, 401 00:21:56,436 --> 00:21:58,676 Speaker 1: looking back, I was like, I was a producer in 402 00:21:58,716 --> 00:22:00,916 Speaker 1: the middle of the night. That is a really hard 403 00:22:00,996 --> 00:22:04,596 Speaker 1: job to fill. A reporting job is much easier to fill. 404 00:22:04,676 --> 00:22:07,436 Speaker 1: If he hired me for a reporting job, he would 405 00:22:07,476 --> 00:22:10,796 Speaker 1: be vacating a slot that was it's for the morning show. 406 00:22:10,836 --> 00:22:13,036 Speaker 1: So it's it's a really it's a hard job. It's 407 00:22:13,036 --> 00:22:15,156 Speaker 1: a demanding job, and it's a really hard job to fill. 408 00:22:15,276 --> 00:22:18,356 Speaker 1: It was just making a problem for him. That is 409 00:22:18,396 --> 00:22:21,476 Speaker 1: why he was like, that's why I wasn't getting interviews. 410 00:22:21,516 --> 00:22:23,796 Speaker 1: It had nothing to do with my ability as a reporter. 411 00:22:24,196 --> 00:22:27,836 Speaker 1: This happens. But this kind of thing actually happens to women, 412 00:22:27,996 --> 00:22:30,236 Speaker 1: especially quite a bit. And so just what is the 413 00:22:30,276 --> 00:22:32,996 Speaker 1: Cinderella syndrome? So that's the story. What's the Cinderella So 414 00:22:33,036 --> 00:22:37,116 Speaker 1: the Cinderella syndrome is from the Cinderella's story. Um and 415 00:22:37,516 --> 00:22:39,476 Speaker 1: in the story there's you know, Cinderella is trying to 416 00:22:39,476 --> 00:22:41,956 Speaker 1: go to the ball, and she asks the evil stepmother like, 417 00:22:41,956 --> 00:22:42,996 Speaker 1: I want to go to the ball. And I go 418 00:22:43,036 --> 00:22:45,796 Speaker 1: to the ball. Evil summers like, totally go to the ball. 419 00:22:46,636 --> 00:22:49,116 Speaker 1: We just need you to, you know, clean the banister, 420 00:22:49,316 --> 00:22:52,836 Speaker 1: sweep the chimney, all this stuff. And Cinderella is like, okay, 421 00:22:52,876 --> 00:22:55,436 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it. And so she cleans the banister 422 00:22:55,476 --> 00:22:58,836 Speaker 1: and sweeps the everything, and then she's like, can I 423 00:22:58,916 --> 00:23:02,276 Speaker 1: go And the stem was like, no, you don't. Yeah, 424 00:23:02,276 --> 00:23:04,436 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. It just feels you're just yeah, she just 425 00:23:04,436 --> 00:23:08,276 Speaker 1: seemed like ball material. Um so. But but how this 426 00:23:08,316 --> 00:23:11,276 Speaker 1: relates is women will often get stuck in this situation. 427 00:23:11,556 --> 00:23:14,756 Speaker 1: And whereas men will sometimes get promoted and often get 428 00:23:14,796 --> 00:23:18,276 Speaker 1: promoted on their potential, women will get promoted on the 429 00:23:18,316 --> 00:23:21,756 Speaker 1: work that they've done and they'll be asked to prove 430 00:23:21,796 --> 00:23:23,996 Speaker 1: themselves over and over and over again. And it just 431 00:23:24,076 --> 00:23:26,796 Speaker 1: has to do with again, unconscious biases and where people 432 00:23:26,876 --> 00:23:28,996 Speaker 1: see certain things. It's like, you know, I think he 433 00:23:29,116 --> 00:23:33,036 Speaker 1: might be a really good host, which isn't necessarily going 434 00:23:33,076 --> 00:23:36,356 Speaker 1: to occur for and this also happens with people of 435 00:23:36,356 --> 00:23:39,556 Speaker 1: color and other marginalized groups. Just like they don't look 436 00:23:39,596 --> 00:23:41,516 Speaker 1: like a host or people are just I don't know, 437 00:23:41,516 --> 00:23:43,596 Speaker 1: it's my gut feeling. A lot of the stuff happens 438 00:23:43,716 --> 00:23:47,476 Speaker 1: with gut feelings. So a lot of times, especially with women, 439 00:23:47,516 --> 00:23:50,436 Speaker 1: they'll be asked to do you prove themselves over and 440 00:23:50,476 --> 00:23:53,316 Speaker 1: over and over again, as I was proving myself over 441 00:23:53,356 --> 00:23:56,636 Speaker 1: and over and over again, and yet getting told different 442 00:23:56,716 --> 00:23:59,676 Speaker 1: things that are not necessarily true, like well, well, just 443 00:23:59,716 --> 00:24:01,276 Speaker 1: put in a little more time, try to make your 444 00:24:01,276 --> 00:24:03,036 Speaker 1: work a little more special. It had nothing to do 445 00:24:03,076 --> 00:24:07,996 Speaker 1: with that. It was something else entirely, and yeah, so okay, 446 00:24:07,996 --> 00:24:13,916 Speaker 1: so that's the problem. What's the Machiavellian solution. Well, the 447 00:24:13,916 --> 00:24:16,476 Speaker 1: Mackiewellian solution, I think in my case would have been 448 00:24:16,476 --> 00:24:18,516 Speaker 1: to recognize that me leaving my job is going to 449 00:24:18,596 --> 00:24:21,196 Speaker 1: make a problem. So to come to my boss with 450 00:24:21,276 --> 00:24:24,676 Speaker 1: a solution and say, listen, you know kneel over here, 451 00:24:25,036 --> 00:24:27,676 Speaker 1: I know is really eager for promotion. I think he'd 452 00:24:27,716 --> 00:24:30,436 Speaker 1: be really great in this job. Why don't you put 453 00:24:30,476 --> 00:24:32,396 Speaker 1: him in that job for six months. He would be great, 454 00:24:32,436 --> 00:24:34,036 Speaker 1: he'd be trained up, he could fill in for me, 455 00:24:34,076 --> 00:24:35,996 Speaker 1: and then I would, you know, get to be a 456 00:24:36,036 --> 00:24:39,196 Speaker 1: reporter and just basically anticipate the problem, see it from 457 00:24:39,276 --> 00:24:42,196 Speaker 1: his point of view, and solve it while proposing the 458 00:24:42,196 --> 00:24:44,276 Speaker 1: thing that I want. I think that would be. It 459 00:24:44,436 --> 00:24:49,156 Speaker 1: seems less unappealing than the other All the solutions are unappealing. 460 00:24:49,276 --> 00:24:53,836 Speaker 1: That's true. They're most interesting when they're unappealing, they're most interestingly. 461 00:24:53,956 --> 00:24:56,236 Speaker 1: There were those were really really hard ones to write. 462 00:24:56,276 --> 00:24:59,476 Speaker 1: Some of them really were. Did people get mad at 463 00:24:59,516 --> 00:25:05,036 Speaker 1: you for writing a book where you tell women to smile? Yeah? Yeah, 464 00:25:05,076 --> 00:25:08,116 Speaker 1: I mean some people were upset at some of the advice. 465 00:25:08,156 --> 00:25:10,956 Speaker 1: I mean not a lot of the advice is just 466 00:25:11,196 --> 00:25:13,236 Speaker 1: more practical, like do a lot of research, find out 467 00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:17,196 Speaker 1: what people in. So a lot of it is not stomachtorney, 468 00:25:17,196 --> 00:25:19,556 Speaker 1: but some of it. The most stomach atorney You'll really 469 00:25:19,556 --> 00:25:23,316 Speaker 1: like this, Jacob, was when I did the motherhood chapter. 470 00:25:23,676 --> 00:25:26,596 Speaker 1: This was probably the most surprising research I did in 471 00:25:26,596 --> 00:25:29,756 Speaker 1: the book. Was the penalty for motherhood, the discrimination that 472 00:25:29,796 --> 00:25:33,716 Speaker 1: mother's experience. It is insane. The pay gap between women 473 00:25:33,916 --> 00:25:37,836 Speaker 1: who have children and women who don't is bigger than 474 00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:41,436 Speaker 1: the gender pay gap. And women they when they would 475 00:25:41,556 --> 00:25:45,476 Speaker 1: have identical resumes with like a woman's you know, women's name, 476 00:25:45,476 --> 00:25:47,956 Speaker 1: and one of the resumes indicated children like pta and 477 00:25:48,036 --> 00:25:51,596 Speaker 1: special interests or something. Women would be recommended for lower 478 00:25:51,596 --> 00:25:55,996 Speaker 1: salaries by fifteen percent, and people would look at their 479 00:25:56,036 --> 00:25:59,756 Speaker 1: resumes far more critically as far as um and be 480 00:25:59,956 --> 00:26:03,356 Speaker 1: much more inclined to impose harsher penalties for things like lateness. 481 00:26:03,396 --> 00:26:07,956 Speaker 1: So automatically there's just a feeling of her real job 482 00:26:08,036 --> 00:26:10,276 Speaker 1: isn't this job is what comes up? And so of 483 00:26:10,276 --> 00:26:13,116 Speaker 1: course what we want is to solve the underlying problem. 484 00:26:13,156 --> 00:26:14,996 Speaker 1: It needs to be solved. We want that not to 485 00:26:15,036 --> 00:26:16,956 Speaker 1: be a problem. But there's also this sort of in 486 00:26:16,996 --> 00:26:20,636 Speaker 1: the meantime problem what do we do about what do 487 00:26:20,676 --> 00:26:23,076 Speaker 1: we do about it? Right? There are mothers every day 488 00:26:23,236 --> 00:26:25,436 Speaker 1: trying to get a job, trying to get promoted. The 489 00:26:25,436 --> 00:26:27,956 Speaker 1: world is still broken in this way. Like what's the 490 00:26:27,956 --> 00:26:33,156 Speaker 1: Maciewellian solution. Macuefellian solution is I called everyone about this 491 00:26:33,156 --> 00:26:34,516 Speaker 1: because I was like, I don't want to put this 492 00:26:34,556 --> 00:26:38,476 Speaker 1: in the book. Basically it said, you know before you know, 493 00:26:38,516 --> 00:26:41,316 Speaker 1: if you know you're you're before you have your baby, 494 00:26:41,596 --> 00:26:44,156 Speaker 1: talk to your boss, make really concrete plans. Basically, act 495 00:26:44,196 --> 00:26:46,156 Speaker 1: like you're going on vacation, even if you're not even 496 00:26:46,196 --> 00:26:47,596 Speaker 1: sure you're going to come back. Or how you're going 497 00:26:47,676 --> 00:26:49,436 Speaker 1: to deal with childcare. Just be like, okay, great, so 498 00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:51,116 Speaker 1: I'll be back in April and I'll pick up this 499 00:26:51,156 --> 00:26:53,396 Speaker 1: project right where I left off and just kind of 500 00:26:53,476 --> 00:26:56,236 Speaker 1: don't let them what they call mommy track you. And 501 00:26:56,276 --> 00:26:58,956 Speaker 1: it's a really real I mean, the research is insane. 502 00:26:58,996 --> 00:27:04,236 Speaker 1: The other thing was just oh, oh, Jacobus, you put 503 00:27:04,316 --> 00:27:07,196 Speaker 1: it in there. I know, I did, I know, but 504 00:27:07,356 --> 00:27:11,716 Speaker 1: you're you basically, don't talk about your baby. You come 505 00:27:11,756 --> 00:27:15,116 Speaker 1: back to work, you just don't mention the baby, like, 506 00:27:15,196 --> 00:27:19,716 Speaker 1: don't show pictures. I mean, it's not pretty. And I 507 00:27:19,796 --> 00:27:22,796 Speaker 1: really hated writing that, because it's a beautiful thing. You've 508 00:27:22,796 --> 00:27:25,116 Speaker 1: got a baby. You should shout it from the rooftops. 509 00:27:25,156 --> 00:27:29,916 Speaker 1: That's wonderful, the circle of life. And yet people will 510 00:27:29,996 --> 00:27:31,556 Speaker 1: use it as an excuse not to promote you, to 511 00:27:31,596 --> 00:27:34,196 Speaker 1: pull you off important projects. And so yeah, my two 512 00:27:34,196 --> 00:27:38,036 Speaker 1: major pieces of advice from the research were really painful. 513 00:27:38,116 --> 00:27:41,036 Speaker 1: It was basically, don't talk about your baby and then 514 00:27:41,076 --> 00:27:44,436 Speaker 1: work as if you do not have a baby, which 515 00:27:44,836 --> 00:27:48,796 Speaker 1: it's really rough, but I think it maybe highlights the 516 00:27:48,796 --> 00:27:51,956 Speaker 1: gravity of the problem too. How have people reacted to 517 00:27:51,956 --> 00:27:55,316 Speaker 1: that part of the book. The people who have talked 518 00:27:55,356 --> 00:27:58,876 Speaker 1: to me about it. Who have children have actually sort 519 00:27:58,916 --> 00:28:02,156 Speaker 1: of agreed. I did have. Actually that's not entirely true. 520 00:28:02,156 --> 00:28:04,076 Speaker 1: One woman was like, no, I brought my baby to work. 521 00:28:04,196 --> 00:28:06,476 Speaker 1: She's like, nothing is going to change if people basically 522 00:28:06,556 --> 00:28:08,796 Speaker 1: hide the fact they have children. She's like, your book 523 00:28:09,516 --> 00:28:13,356 Speaker 1: is going to keep people back, like instead of sort 524 00:28:13,396 --> 00:28:15,676 Speaker 1: of pushing the issue forward. And she made a really 525 00:28:15,676 --> 00:28:18,196 Speaker 1: good point. And she had said she in her workplace 526 00:28:18,196 --> 00:28:21,036 Speaker 1: had made a real point of bringing her baby to work, 527 00:28:21,076 --> 00:28:24,116 Speaker 1: and eventually she'd even left her office because she said 528 00:28:24,156 --> 00:28:26,876 Speaker 1: she'd still run into so many issues and started started 529 00:28:26,916 --> 00:28:30,116 Speaker 1: her own business. But she was like, nothing's going to 530 00:28:30,276 --> 00:28:34,196 Speaker 1: change if yeah, And so there is some tension right 531 00:28:34,196 --> 00:28:37,036 Speaker 1: where if you like are dealing if you're just living 532 00:28:37,076 --> 00:28:42,596 Speaker 1: in the bad fighting it better, Yes, if you're navigating 533 00:28:42,636 --> 00:28:44,956 Speaker 1: inside of a croup. But this is the This is 534 00:28:44,956 --> 00:28:47,516 Speaker 1: the complication of living in a system that, as you said, 535 00:28:47,556 --> 00:28:51,236 Speaker 1: in certain ways is broken, is that you have to 536 00:28:51,236 --> 00:28:55,396 Speaker 1: work in it and try to change it, and that 537 00:28:55,516 --> 00:28:58,196 Speaker 1: is enormously difficult. At the same time, you're just like 538 00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:00,876 Speaker 1: trying to pay your gas bill, you know. So it's 539 00:29:01,036 --> 00:29:04,316 Speaker 1: there is it is a painful thing, and I think 540 00:29:04,796 --> 00:29:07,316 Speaker 1: it's a painful thing to experience and to talk about. 541 00:29:08,956 --> 00:29:13,036 Speaker 1: There's a great maybe the opposite of Machuveli, but Eckert 542 00:29:13,036 --> 00:29:15,836 Speaker 1: Totlee has had this piece of advice that I remember 543 00:29:15,836 --> 00:29:18,396 Speaker 1: listening to and I was like, that's very Machiavellian, Whereas like, 544 00:29:18,396 --> 00:29:21,836 Speaker 1: there are three sane responses to a difficult situation. You 545 00:29:21,956 --> 00:29:24,836 Speaker 1: change the situation. If you can't change the situation, you 546 00:29:24,956 --> 00:29:28,236 Speaker 1: leave the situation. If you can't change or leave the situation, 547 00:29:28,516 --> 00:29:31,556 Speaker 1: you accept the situation. It was like, that is actually 548 00:29:31,756 --> 00:29:35,516 Speaker 1: very Machiavelian. It's like, this is the situation. What are 549 00:29:35,516 --> 00:29:37,276 Speaker 1: you going to do? Like? What are the actions you 550 00:29:37,276 --> 00:29:40,036 Speaker 1: can take? And what I really appreciated about Machubli was 551 00:29:40,076 --> 00:29:42,796 Speaker 1: like ways forward. And I think I had sort of 552 00:29:42,796 --> 00:29:46,276 Speaker 1: been spinning in the outrage and the herd and the 553 00:29:46,356 --> 00:29:50,276 Speaker 1: shame and the unfairness and all that for a long time, 554 00:29:50,276 --> 00:29:52,196 Speaker 1: and I think Macubeli kind of showed me a way 555 00:29:52,196 --> 00:30:08,396 Speaker 1: out coming up the lightning round. After this break, Now 556 00:30:08,836 --> 00:30:11,556 Speaker 1: that to the show. Now it's time for the lightning Okay, 557 00:30:11,596 --> 00:30:16,076 Speaker 1: all right? What happens in the lightning round? Do I 558 00:30:16,996 --> 00:30:19,236 Speaker 1: ask you questions and you answer them quickly but in 559 00:30:19,356 --> 00:30:22,916 Speaker 1: rapid fashion, Okay, okay, I guess that's kind of in 560 00:30:22,956 --> 00:30:27,796 Speaker 1: the title. What would Machiavelli think of Machiavelli for women? 561 00:30:30,356 --> 00:30:33,356 Speaker 1: I think he would be psyched that he was still 562 00:30:33,356 --> 00:30:36,996 Speaker 1: being talked about. Yeah, and I don't think he would 563 00:30:36,996 --> 00:30:38,356 Speaker 1: care that. I don't think you would be like, well, 564 00:30:38,396 --> 00:30:40,396 Speaker 1: I don't want women in power. I think he'd be like, great, 565 00:30:40,436 --> 00:30:43,596 Speaker 1: they're talking about like in more people potentially buying my book. 566 00:30:43,676 --> 00:30:47,956 Speaker 1: I think he would be excited. That's a fairy Machiavelli 567 00:30:48,036 --> 00:30:52,476 Speaker 1: in response, what's one thing a boss or manager can 568 00:30:52,516 --> 00:30:54,916 Speaker 1: do to make the kinds of problems you talk about 569 00:30:54,956 --> 00:30:59,636 Speaker 1: in the book a little better? Put like systems in place. 570 00:30:59,716 --> 00:31:01,276 Speaker 1: I think, like I said, a lot of the gut 571 00:31:01,276 --> 00:31:03,396 Speaker 1: feeling stuff is where a lot of these problems come in. 572 00:31:03,436 --> 00:31:06,436 Speaker 1: So making kind of a system, like Okay, when we're 573 00:31:06,516 --> 00:31:08,516 Speaker 1: hiring for this position, we're going to like take names 574 00:31:08,516 --> 00:31:10,516 Speaker 1: off resumes first, or we're only going to look at 575 00:31:10,556 --> 00:31:13,076 Speaker 1: candidates that have like X, Y and Z, or we're 576 00:31:13,116 --> 00:31:15,556 Speaker 1: not going to look at these things. Those things can 577 00:31:15,636 --> 00:31:19,476 Speaker 1: kind of help avoid some of the biases that come up. 578 00:31:20,916 --> 00:31:24,436 Speaker 1: What's your favorite thing about Machiavelli the man, the person, 579 00:31:24,636 --> 00:31:29,236 Speaker 1: not the writer. M I think what I loved about 580 00:31:29,236 --> 00:31:31,916 Speaker 1: Machiavelli was when I started reading about his life. He 581 00:31:32,036 --> 00:31:34,756 Speaker 1: actually wrote The Prince at a time when he lost 582 00:31:34,796 --> 00:31:37,996 Speaker 1: everything that he had. He was a very impressive career. 583 00:31:37,996 --> 00:31:40,116 Speaker 1: He was basically the secretary of State for Florence for 584 00:31:40,156 --> 00:31:43,596 Speaker 1: a while, was like met Kings, and but then power 585 00:31:43,716 --> 00:31:47,196 Speaker 1: changed hands and they, like the new leader, like took 586 00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:48,476 Speaker 1: all his money away from him and put him in 587 00:31:48,516 --> 00:31:51,476 Speaker 1: jail and tortured him and exiled him. And that was 588 00:31:51,516 --> 00:31:54,316 Speaker 1: where he wrote The Prince. And I mean, that's like 589 00:31:54,316 --> 00:31:55,876 Speaker 1: a weird thing to have it to be my favorite 590 00:31:55,876 --> 00:32:00,116 Speaker 1: thing about Machiavelli, but I think it humanized him for me. Yeah, 591 00:32:00,156 --> 00:32:03,076 Speaker 1: you described The Prince as a as a cover letter, 592 00:32:03,196 --> 00:32:06,036 Speaker 1: right for a job, and he never got that job, right, 593 00:32:06,076 --> 00:32:08,036 Speaker 1: He never sort of made it back to power, so 594 00:32:08,076 --> 00:32:12,756 Speaker 1: he held right. And I'm curious, like, did he need 595 00:32:13,116 --> 00:32:16,836 Speaker 1: Machiavelli for Machiavelli And if so, like what would it say. 596 00:32:17,636 --> 00:32:19,836 Speaker 1: I mean, he was in a situation, so he basically 597 00:32:19,836 --> 00:32:21,476 Speaker 1: wrote The Prince. And in the beginning of the Prince 598 00:32:21,516 --> 00:32:25,596 Speaker 1: there's this weird apology treatise to the people who basically 599 00:32:25,596 --> 00:32:27,636 Speaker 1: taken everything from him and tortured him, and he was like, Oh, 600 00:32:27,636 --> 00:32:31,476 Speaker 1: you're amazing, and here are just my crappy ideas. But 601 00:32:31,516 --> 00:32:33,036 Speaker 1: I'm just going to present you the very best things 602 00:32:33,036 --> 00:32:34,956 Speaker 1: I've learned from all my millions of years of experience. 603 00:32:35,196 --> 00:32:37,916 Speaker 1: Take it or leave it was Lorenzo de Medici never 604 00:32:37,996 --> 00:32:40,436 Speaker 1: even looked at it. Apparently never looked at it, and 605 00:32:40,556 --> 00:32:43,196 Speaker 1: Machiavelli did not ever get back to sort of the 606 00:32:43,836 --> 00:32:46,436 Speaker 1: career that he had or the life that he had. 607 00:32:48,556 --> 00:32:51,436 Speaker 1: I think the thing the piece of advice that I 608 00:32:51,436 --> 00:32:53,116 Speaker 1: would give him at that point, because then he did 609 00:32:53,116 --> 00:32:55,836 Speaker 1: start like writing plays and poems and stuff. It was 610 00:32:55,916 --> 00:32:59,796 Speaker 1: just to let go of that thing. I don't think 611 00:32:59,796 --> 00:33:02,516 Speaker 1: he could have gotten back there. So I think I 612 00:33:02,516 --> 00:33:05,676 Speaker 1: would have encouraged him to maybe let go of his 613 00:33:05,796 --> 00:33:08,956 Speaker 1: old life and like maybe look for something new a little. So, 614 00:33:10,516 --> 00:33:12,836 Speaker 1: what's one piece of advice you'd give to someone trying 615 00:33:12,836 --> 00:33:17,916 Speaker 1: to solve a hard problem, Maybe to get curious. I 616 00:33:17,916 --> 00:33:19,916 Speaker 1: think that's the biggest lesson I've learned, so, like, instead 617 00:33:19,916 --> 00:33:24,516 Speaker 1: of getting angry or afraid, which are kind of my 618 00:33:24,556 --> 00:33:27,276 Speaker 1: two go to responses in situations, especially if it feels 619 00:33:27,276 --> 00:33:30,036 Speaker 1: like a lot at steak, to kind of just get 620 00:33:30,036 --> 00:33:33,276 Speaker 1: curious and like explore a little because I think that 621 00:33:33,316 --> 00:33:36,036 Speaker 1: can open your mind up and you can find solutions. So, 622 00:33:36,196 --> 00:33:39,476 Speaker 1: now that you've shown how useful Machiavelli is for women, 623 00:33:40,236 --> 00:33:46,156 Speaker 1: what other domains should we be using Machiavelli in. I mean, 624 00:33:46,196 --> 00:33:49,116 Speaker 1: I don't think there's like a lack of machiavellianness in 625 00:33:49,156 --> 00:33:51,676 Speaker 1: the world. I know someone was like, are you going 626 00:33:51,756 --> 00:33:54,716 Speaker 1: to do Macchiavelli for babies, because you know in New 627 00:33:54,796 --> 00:33:57,596 Speaker 1: York you'd like, I don't know. I feel like babies 628 00:33:57,596 --> 00:34:01,316 Speaker 1: are super Macchiavellian already. They don't need a book. They're 629 00:34:01,436 --> 00:34:04,476 Speaker 1: very good about that. Who needs Machiavelli? I mean maybe 630 00:34:04,516 --> 00:34:08,956 Speaker 1: the climate needs Machiavelli. I think, like some of thee 631 00:34:09,676 --> 00:34:12,756 Speaker 1: the things that are important but difficult to tackle, I 632 00:34:12,796 --> 00:34:16,196 Speaker 1: think are good. It's a good domain for Machiavelli. Say 633 00:34:16,316 --> 00:34:18,316 Speaker 1: that's the end of the lightning round. All right, that's it, 634 00:34:18,516 --> 00:34:31,356 Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Thanks Jacob Stacy Vannick. Smith is 635 00:34:31,396 --> 00:34:34,196 Speaker 1: the author of Machiavelli for Women. Defend your worth, grow 636 00:34:34,236 --> 00:34:45,476 Speaker 1: your ambition, and win the workplace. Thanks very much to 637 00:34:45,516 --> 00:34:48,916 Speaker 1: our sponsors Geico and ZIP Recruiter Special Thanks also to 638 00:34:49,116 --> 00:34:52,756 Speaker 1: Robert Smith, the whole staff here at Caveat also to 639 00:34:53,036 --> 00:34:56,916 Speaker 1: Edith Russelo, Carly Migliori, Nicole Morano, and Maggie Taylor. At 640 00:34:56,956 --> 00:35:01,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin and at iHeart. Thanks to Kathy Callahan, Mattie Aaron's, 641 00:35:01,596 --> 00:35:08,276 Speaker 1: Will Pearson, Christine Flipsy, Jawara Parker, Allison Wright, Nathan Otoski, 642 00:35:08,396 --> 00:35:11,116 Speaker 1: and Connal Burn. I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back 643 00:35:11,156 --> 00:35:16,556 Speaker 1: next week with another episode of What's Your Problem Beautiful