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Speaker 1: Who Zone Media, Welcome back to it could happen here, everybody.

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Speaker 1: I am Robert Evans, and I want to start today

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Speaker 1: by kind of proposing a theoretical Right, you wake up

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Speaker 1: in the morning and something is awry. You know, maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe you hear shots, maybe there's some sort of natural disaster.

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe it's that that weird Havana syndron death

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Speaker 1: sound from the Obama movie that just came out on

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Speaker 1: what was it Netflix? But something's fucked up. And you know,

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Speaker 1: most people, I think especially most people who listen to

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Speaker 1: this podcast, you've probably had conversations with your friends and

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Speaker 1: loved ones about what do we do when the quote

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Speaker 1: unquote apocalypse or shit hits the fan. You know, you've

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Speaker 1: got your friends who maybe you know they have a

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Speaker 1: lot of stored food, or they have some other skill

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Speaker 1: that you think would be useful. And you've got some

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Speaker 1: stuff that's that that that you know you know how

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Speaker 1: to do. You've got your people right that you would

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Speaker 1: want to be with and around if something's really going

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Speaker 1: wrong out there, because you know how to take care

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Speaker 1: of each other. But how do you get in contact right,

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Speaker 1: assuming you don't all live together, assuming you're not all

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Speaker 1: on some sort of commune type situation, as most people aren't.

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Speaker 1: You're probably scattered throughout the city. Maybe you've got some

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Speaker 1: friends out, you know, in the suburbs, Maybe you've got

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Speaker 1: some friends who live out in rural land. Maybe you've

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Speaker 1: just got a friend who lives halfway across town. And

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Speaker 1: you know, that's no problem when you've got a phone

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Speaker 1: and you've got you know, Google Maps working. But can

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Speaker 1: you get there on your own? Can you get there

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Speaker 1: or get into contact with them if the streets are

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Speaker 1: all clogged up with cars or whatever, like, how are

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Speaker 1: you going to reach them? How are you going to

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Speaker 1: you know, get in touch in order to figure out

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Speaker 1: what's going on? And how are you going to stay

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Speaker 1: in touch while you handle whatever you need to handle

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Speaker 1: for whatever is going wrong. Well that's what we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about today, because if the cell networks are down,

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Speaker 1: if they're being blocked, if you know, the Obama situation happens,

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Speaker 1: there are things you can do to allow you and

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Speaker 1: your friends, comrades, affinity group, whatever you want to call them,

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Speaker 1: to stay in touch. And a lot of this revolves

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Speaker 1: around a kind of technical usage called a mesh network.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know much about that because I am

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Speaker 1: a big dummy. But a person who is not a

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Speaker 1: dummy is our guest today. They go by Hydroponic Trash

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Speaker 1: on Twitter and they are going to talk to us

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Speaker 1: today about how to set up independent communications networks that

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Speaker 1: do not rely on the standard grid. Hello, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the show.

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Speaker 2: Hey, what's up? Thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for coming on. You posted a thread

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Speaker 1: on Twitter about using You know, it's called like LOWRA

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Speaker 1: low frequency radio. Is that what it stands for?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, LORA stands technically for long range, but yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: a long range frequency radio that broadcasts a pretty specific

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Speaker 2: wavelength that can travel really far throughout the air. So

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Speaker 2: it's perfect for communications long distance.

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Speaker 1: And it's if you've got devices set up on this

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Speaker 1: they each basically act as nodes, right, So the more

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Speaker 1: you have the kind of wider signal distribution you get.

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Speaker 1: If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, Like if you've

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Speaker 1: got someone three miles away and then another person five

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Speaker 1: miles to the west of them, then you kind of

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Speaker 1: are able to cover that whole distance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So think of it like a relay system, right, Yah,

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Speaker 2: one person has a message they send it off to

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Speaker 2: another person. That person passes it on to the next node,

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Speaker 2: and so mesh networks are really resilient when it comes

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Speaker 2: to emergencies, when it comes to protests, when it comes

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Speaker 2: to occupation and conflict zones, because if one node goes down,

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Speaker 2: as long as there's other ones that can pick up

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Speaker 2: that message and keep repeating it and broadcasting it out.

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Speaker 2: So it's a really interesting piece of technology that is

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Speaker 2: similar to traditional radios, but also different because all the

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Speaker 2: communications can be encrypted end to end, which is a

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Speaker 2: huge delay of security.

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Speaker 1: Because you can the thing most people's default if you're

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Speaker 1: thinking like, well, how do you get some like walkie talkies?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: You know, you get some and those can you know,

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Speaker 1: those have their place and stuff, but they are also

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Speaker 1: not always the most secure options. So being able to

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Speaker 1: encrypt shit is a huge deal, especially when you're talking

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Speaker 1: about like outside of a shit hits the fan kind

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Speaker 1: of deal, which is less likely than you know, some

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Speaker 1: sort of civil unrest protest use case. You know, being

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Speaker 1: able to actually encrypt is huge. Yeah, So I'm a dummy.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand much about setting up my own technology independently,

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Speaker 1: but I find this interesting. I see the use case.

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Speaker 1: I decide I want to you know, set this up

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Speaker 1: and start, you know, building an emergency mesh network with

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Speaker 1: a half dozen of my friends. Where do I start?

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Speaker 2: So, first thing is you'll need some hardware that supports LORA.

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Speaker 2: There are a ton of different things out there, ranging

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Speaker 2: from maybe twenty twenty five bucks going all the way

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Speaker 2: up to thousands of dollars, So there's a big range,

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Speaker 2: and that range really depends on the enclosure, what's included

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Speaker 2: in it, the broadcast strength, all that good stuff. So

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Speaker 2: obviously the cheaper you go, the weaker the broadcast strength is.

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Speaker 2: There might be development boards that are just literally like

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Speaker 2: the PCB, like actual hardware with no case around it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's there's some that you can just pick

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Speaker 2: up and immediately use, and so it kind of depends.

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Speaker 2: But that's the first step is finding hardware that can

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Speaker 2: handle LORA, and then you know obviously getting it and

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Speaker 2: then flashing it with the correct software. And that sounds

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Speaker 2: really complicated, but for our purposes of sending text messages

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Speaker 2: without any kind of cellular, LTE or Wi Fi connection,

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Speaker 2: you can use super cheap devices and flashing them is

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Speaker 2: you click a couple buttons and you're done.

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Speaker 1: So, first off, do you have any kind of specific

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Speaker 1: you know, I know you're working on a text piece

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Speaker 1: that you can put up to explain all this, and

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Speaker 1: I I will certainly share that as soon as it

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Speaker 1: gets up. But do you have any specific like if

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Speaker 1: somebody's saying, hey, I've got you know, a budget of

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Speaker 1: fifty bucks, you know, or so, is there a complete

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Speaker 1: device you would recommend if they're or somewhere in that

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Speaker 1: median range, like kind of on the lower end, a

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Speaker 1: thing that someone doesn't know how to take, you know,

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Speaker 1: a raw board and craft that into a usable device

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Speaker 1: that you would recommend they purchase. Is to start us

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Speaker 1: off here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. So I kind of have two different options.

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Speaker 2: One is a standalone option that can kind of work

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Speaker 2: by itself, completely independent of anything else, and another one

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Speaker 2: uses your phone, So you'll flash it to the board

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Speaker 2: and then connective or bluetooth to your phone just like

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Speaker 2: a pair of headphones.

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Speaker 1: Awsot, Oh that's so easy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so you kind of have options if you

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Speaker 2: want a standalone version. There's a company called Lilygo that

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Speaker 2: makes a thing called a te deck and it's pretty small.

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Speaker 2: It looks like a BlackBerry Clone. Yeah, it has a

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Speaker 2: little mouse thing. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It looks like a BlackBerry kind of crossed with a

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Speaker 1: game camera. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's like thicker

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Speaker 1: in the back, it's got that big antenna. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so the Lego t Deck is what this is called.

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Speaker 2: It's a BlackBerry Clone. Basically, it has lowra built in,

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Speaker 2: it has Bluetooth, and so all you have to do

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Speaker 2: is get powered to this thing, flash it with mesh

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Speaker 2: tastic and there you go. Now you have a Now

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Speaker 2: you can type out messages, you can send direct messages,

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Speaker 2: you can send encrypted messages, all with one device. That's

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Speaker 2: thirty five dollars.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, that's great. And this is something you can

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Speaker 1: get like Ali Express was your recommendation, right, yeah, Ali Express.

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Speaker 2: Probably be the best if you're trying to order a lot.

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Speaker 2: If you want one right now, you can order them

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Speaker 2: on places like Amazon, but it's going to cost you

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Speaker 2: and also fuck Amazon.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean you are slightly doomed to support

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Speaker 1: one horrible billionaire or another like Kelly expresses. But no,

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Speaker 1: I get it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean one of the upsides to like

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Speaker 2: an all in one thing like this is like I

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Speaker 2: three d printed this case, but you don't have to

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Speaker 2: print a case. You can literally just set this into

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Speaker 2: a shoe box or something and protect it. So there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of options on the cases that you want

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Speaker 2: to use. You could buy pre made cases, or you

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Speaker 2: could just, I don't know, just put something to protect

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Speaker 2: the board back here and then screw on an antenna.

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Speaker 2: You're good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I've seen some shit people do with

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Speaker 1: duct tape. You can figure it out. So my question is,

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Speaker 1: or my other question is, you were talking about a

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Speaker 1: way that you can you can basically do the calming

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Speaker 1: like communications through yoursel phone, right, you can hook that

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Speaker 1: into the next mesh network. Is that something you're able

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Speaker 1: to kind of go over at least in brief or

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Speaker 1: provide people with, you know, here's where they can go

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Speaker 1: to read about how to do that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So the same company, Liligo, makes a smaller little device.

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Speaker 2: It's really small, maybe about inch yeah. Yeah, and it

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Speaker 2: has a screen on it so when you power it

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Speaker 2: on you can actually see the messages come through on

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Speaker 2: the screen on the board itself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And it connects through Bluetooth to your phone and you

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Speaker 2: use the mesh Tastic app to basically text like you

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Speaker 2: normally would on a phone. Yeah, it looks just like

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Speaker 2: signal pretty much if you're used to that that UI

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Speaker 2: but uh yeah it's super small. Yeah, it's perfect.

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Speaker 1: And so you're just also using that that mesh Tastic

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Speaker 1: app to flash the software on the devices once you

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Speaker 1: get them. Am I am I understanding that? Right? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I'm just asking. I'm re asking everything because I want

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Speaker 1: to try to make this accessible for both me when

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Speaker 1: I do it and for our listeners.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So mesh Tastic is the software that's

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Speaker 2: running on these devices, and what Meshastic does is a

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Speaker 2: device that's also running Meshtastic can communicate with each other

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Speaker 2: over LORA long distance. And so you need the hardware

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Speaker 2: that supports the LORAW and a client which is mehtastic

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Speaker 2: that will allow you to send tax messages and stuff

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Speaker 2: like that and do the encryption handle all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: To actually flash these it's super simple. Mesh Tastic has

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Speaker 2: a link that you can go to. You plug in

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Speaker 2: your device, depending on the version, you hold down a button,

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Speaker 2: you press flash, wait like ten seconds, and boom, now

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Speaker 2: you have a working mesh Tastic node, probably in underneath

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Speaker 2: ten minutes after you get this out of the box.

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Speaker 2: You could be up and running in about ten to

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Speaker 2: fifteen minutes.

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Speaker 1: That's great and so all right, if I if I've

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Speaker 1: got like say, I'm the guy in my group of

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Speaker 1: friends who has more disposable cash, and I want to

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Speaker 1: get this going. So I pick up five of those

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Speaker 1: lily like boxes three D print a case for them

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Speaker 1: or just wrap them in something, you know, and I

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Speaker 1: keep one. I hand them out to my friends. I

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Speaker 1: get the software on all of them. How how do

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Speaker 1: I get them all kind of in comms together?

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Speaker 2: Right? Like?

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Speaker 1: Or if you know, my friends buy them independently and

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Speaker 1: we each flash them and get them up and running.

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Speaker 1: How do we all kind of connect? Like? What is

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Speaker 1: that process?

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Speaker 2: Like? Yeah? So the good thing with mesh tastic is

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Speaker 2: it automatically handles adding new nodes to the network, and

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Speaker 2: so as soon as a new device that runs mess

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Speaker 2: tastic comes online, it'll broadcast and tell the entire mesh

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Speaker 2: Tastic network nearby, Hey, a new device got added. You

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Speaker 2: can send messages to me. So mesh Tastic has two

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Speaker 2: different things that it can do. It can do broadcasts,

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Speaker 2: where you're sending out a message to pretty much everyone

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Speaker 2: who has a device that's reachable, and that's good for say,

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Speaker 2: for instance, you know your friend comes online, you can't

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Speaker 2: talk to them directly. You could send them broadcast out

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Speaker 2: and say hey Joe, what device are you and they

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Speaker 2: could reply and broadcast everybody okay, I'm on this device.

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Speaker 2: You can also do direct messages, so once you know

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Speaker 2: that person's device name, you can actually send messages directly

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Speaker 2: to them. Now keep in mind it's not encrypted because

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Speaker 2: technically it's broadcasting throughout each node. It's just like filtering

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Speaker 2: out the messages for whoever it was addressed for. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: at that point then you could start dming people. And

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Speaker 2: if you want to get started with encryption, it's also

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Speaker 2: really easy. You can use the mesh Tastic client, so

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Speaker 2: you can install it on your computer, plug it into

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Speaker 2: your computer, and just sett in a encryption key, a passcode,

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Speaker 2: whatever you want to do to secure your communications, and

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Speaker 2: then once that person has that passcode key, whatever, those

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Speaker 2: two devices can connect and talk completely encrypted, either one

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Speaker 2: on one or if multiple people. Say, for instance, you

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Speaker 2: have an affinity group of like ten people, you all

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Speaker 2: say okay, hey, in an in an emergency, let's meet

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Speaker 2: up at this place and physically share a key or

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Speaker 2: passcode or whatever. Once everybody has that, you can also

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Speaker 2: do encrypted broadcasts to multiple people as well, so getting

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Speaker 2: up and running is super quick. When it comes to flashing,

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Speaker 2: actually communicating with people makes sense, especially on your phone.

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Speaker 2: It feels just like a normal texting situation.

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Speaker 1: So that's great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really it's really amazing. I mean, this is

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Speaker 2: a really interesting technology because, like I've been interested in

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Speaker 2: radio for a while. But the I guess downside to

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Speaker 2: that is a you can't encrypt any kind of radio

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Speaker 2: communications in the US b a license. Yeah, unless if

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Speaker 2: you're the cops of the military or the FEDS, you

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Speaker 2: cannot encrypt shit, and if you do, it's it's kind

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Speaker 2: of an issue. But yeah, you can't encrypt messages on

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Speaker 2: regular radios. Another thing is like usability. If you hand

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Speaker 2: somebody like a bow thaying handheld radio, most people are

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Speaker 2: not going to know what to do with it at all.

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Speaker 2: They're gonna be like, what the fuck is this? But

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Speaker 2: if I hand you a BlackBerry clon and say just type,

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Speaker 2: and if you want to send a DM to somebody

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Speaker 2: to find them and just send it like it's it's

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Speaker 2: really easy for your average person to pick it up

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Speaker 2: and use it, which is honestly the best kind of situation,

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Speaker 2: especially in an emergency where you can't really rely on

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Speaker 2: highly technical people all the time, because what if everybody

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Speaker 2: in your affinity group isn't super technical, you know. So

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Speaker 2: it's a it's a good common device that anybody can

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Speaker 2: pick up and start sending messages, even encrypted messages, pretty easily.

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Speaker 1: So I think that covers the technical basics of what

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Speaker 1: you need to do. I did want to ask real

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Speaker 1: quick before we get onto some of the more ideological

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Speaker 1: you know stuff here conversations about like why you specifically

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Speaker 1: gotten into this and why like this is important for people.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask just really quickly in terms of

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Speaker 1: that three D printed case. Did you just go search

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Speaker 1: in some repository and find when someone had made or

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Speaker 1: is there one that you've put up somewhere that you

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Speaker 1: might recommend to people?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Actually it was recently uploaded to thing thing everse,

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Speaker 2: which is a website that has free three D print

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Speaker 2: plans and files, And so I just searched up lilygo

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Speaker 2: t deck on thing everse and the full case, I

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Speaker 2: mean the back Yeah, I loves great has Yeah, it

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Speaker 2: looks like an actual device.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm assuming that one's just pla Yeah, just

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Speaker 1: type of classic, super basic Yeah, yeah, looks great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this only took all these pieces snapped together,

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Speaker 2: so no glue required, and all these pieces took roughly

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Speaker 2: about eight hours to print at one hundred percent density.

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Speaker 2: So you have a pretty solid case with plans that

303
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Speaker 2: are available online and in eight hours you can have

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Speaker 2: a literal professional looking device that's protected and able to go,

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Speaker 2: you know, in adverse situations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So now I want to get into some of

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Speaker 1: the more kind of like just talking about First off,

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Speaker 1: what got you into this, Like when did you decide

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Speaker 1: this is a skill I want to develop and a

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Speaker 1: thing I want to figure out?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, so for my day job, I'm an

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Speaker 2: offensive security consultant, which is just a fancy way of

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Speaker 2: saying that.

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Speaker 1: It's a cool job, pat living. Yeah, you're doing like

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Speaker 1: Red Team stuff. It sounds like, yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: So I've always been interested in technology and specifically like

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Speaker 2: how do you make technology work in the benefit of

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Speaker 2: people as opposed to working the benefit for profits or

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Speaker 2: corporate interest or state interests. So I think technology is

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Speaker 2: a really good tool when used correctly and there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of moral and social and political implications when when

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Speaker 2: it comes to technology and actually making it. But that's

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Speaker 2: kind of how I got into it, was kind of

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Speaker 2: combining my interest in computers and hacking combined with kind

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Speaker 2: of the social and political activism I've been a part of.

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Speaker 2: So that was kind of my entry point into it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes that makes sense because I do think,

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Speaker 1: like when I think about what inspired me about the

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Speaker 1: early Internet, about like file sharing back in the late nineties,

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Speaker 1: about you know, when Wikipedia first started up and stuff

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Speaker 1: all that stuff like that. We talk a lot about

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Speaker 1: like the days when we thought the Internet was going

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Speaker 1: to be an unqualified boon for human liberty, the ability

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Speaker 1: to create effectively, like a smaller and more limited private

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Speaker 1: Internet for like you and your people to communicate safely

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Speaker 1: through definitely like scratches that itch. And when we say

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Speaker 1: like more limited Internet, you're not through one of these

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Speaker 1: networks we're talking about. You're not going to be like

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Speaker 1: sending YouTube videos and shit, right, But that's not what

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Speaker 1: it's for.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's got its own use and it's very much kind

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Speaker 1: of what the Internet was about at the beginning, which

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Speaker 1: is just allowing people to connect that otherwise wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: able to or wouldn't be able to as securely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And actually the same protocol LORA, you actually

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Speaker 2: kind of can run a basic Internet protocol that it's

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Speaker 2: called Laura WAN Laura Wide Access Networking, and you can

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Speaker 2: run some pretty basic programs on it outside of just

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Speaker 2: text based stuff. So it's a really interesting kind of

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Speaker 2: rabbit hole to go down into. I will say, if

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Speaker 2: you start looking at Laura and mestastic stuff, you will

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Speaker 2: eventually start to run into like a right leaning, yes,

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Speaker 2: sometimes straight out fascist people because there's a crossover between

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Speaker 2: you know, the uh, the gun community and kind of

356
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Speaker 2: off grid prepper doomsday prepper people, you know, so you'll

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Speaker 2: run into that.

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Speaker 1: Anyone who doesn't like like the government is going to

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Speaker 1: have a vested interest in being able to communicate in

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Speaker 1: a way that can't be easily intercepted, right like that,

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Speaker 1: And that doesn't always mean your buddies. I think most

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Speaker 1: people are pretty familiar with that.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. Yea, but yeah, it's it's it's really useful. There

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Speaker 2: there are other ways to say, for instance, make your

365
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Speaker 2: own kind of like micro internet. I read an article

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Speaker 2: that talked about making kind of like a DIY internet

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Speaker 2: in quotes, where you can basically take your home router

368
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Speaker 2: and connect say, for instance, your neighbors to the same network,

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Speaker 2: and then if you have a server of your own

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Speaker 2: that has books, that has maps, that has music and information,

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Speaker 2: you can easily share that with other people. And so

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Speaker 2: there are other ways to kind of get your own

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Speaker 2: off grid quote unquote internet together, but just outside of text.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it's definitely possible. It's just needs a little

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Speaker 2: bit more technical know how, but hopefully soon it'll be

376
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Speaker 2: a little simpler to where you can just download something,

377
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Speaker 2: get you a book server up and running, and then

378
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Speaker 2: have anybody come along and download books about you know,

379
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Speaker 2: permaculture or about you know, emergency medical aid or fixing

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Speaker 2: infrastructure and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that's huge being able to actually like transmit

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Speaker 1: text and stuff through that too. So yeah, you said

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Speaker 1: when we were chatting online kind of before we hooked

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Speaker 1: this up, you said something along the lines of you

385
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Speaker 1: had a bit of a tangent you wanted to go on.

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Speaker 1: So I've asked kind of my questions here if there

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Speaker 1: is anything else you wanted to get out or express

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Speaker 1: or say, just kind of on the subject of people

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Speaker 1: taking more autonomy for themselves in their communications technology. Well,

390
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:47,640
Speaker 1: now's the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sounds good. I mean so earlier you asked, like,

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Speaker 2: what kind of got me into this? Yeah, But there's

393
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Speaker 2: another situation that happened because I live in Texas, Oh

394
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Speaker 2: and a couple Yeah, so you know where I'm going

395
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,400
Speaker 2: with this. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. A couple of years ago,

396
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Speaker 2: there was a really bad winter storm. And for most

397
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Speaker 2: people listening, you might be in the northeast, like, who cares?

398
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was there for that storm.

399
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Speaker 2: Oh it was it was crazy. It was crazy. Yeah.

400
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Speaker 2: And so for people outside of Texas, you might be saying, Okay, well,

401
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Speaker 2: winter storm whatever, like, how could that affect anything? But

402
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 2: Texas's power grid is privately owned. Yeah, it's completely separate

403
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 2: from the rest of us. Yeah. Urkat is a private

404
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 2: company that runs the Texas power grid. And so we

405
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,679
Speaker 2: had a winter storm event happen, and our power systems

406
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 2: are not in any way built for extreme cold, and

407
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Speaker 2: so we had the situation where pretty much the entire

408
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Speaker 2: state was out of power, except for maybe a few

409
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Speaker 2: areas in certain cities that had, you know, a specific

410
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Speaker 2: environment where they had backup generators and stuff like that.

411
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Speaker 2: But millions of people lost power. And when people lose power,

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Speaker 2: it isn't just oh I can't like watch TV or

413
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Speaker 2: like do anything. There's lies that are lost, you know,

414
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 2: directly from people who require ventilators to live to people

415
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 2: who need electricity to run their medical devices. That impacted everything, right,

416
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 2: So the power going out impacted transportation, impacted water, it

417
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Speaker 2: impacted sanitation. So all these bits of infrastructure are all connected,

418
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Speaker 2: and communications is kind of at the core of our

419
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: modern day infrastructure, right, because in order to run a

420
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Speaker 2: power plant, you need to have power, but not only that,

421
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 2: you need to be able to communicate with other places

422
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: in order to properly run the water sanitation, you know,

423
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 2: program same with transfera I mean, if communication goes out,

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Speaker 2: you literally can't deliver food, You literally can't deliver water

425
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Speaker 2: to people and places that need it. And so it's

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Speaker 2: not just an impact directly to communications, but an impact

427
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Speaker 2: to your entire life. And so when we're talking about

428
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 2: these pieces of infrastructure, we really have to think about

429
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Speaker 2: the larger picture of how all this infrastructure is integrated

430
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Speaker 2: in our lives and how an impact to one part

431
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: of it can impact your life in ways that you

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Speaker 2: never even thought of.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and that's also I mean, I think I

434
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Speaker 1: would imagine one of the benefits I can say, just

435
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 1: from sort of the fairly minimal degree to which I've

436
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: done stuff like understand the basics of solar power and

437
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 1: what I can do and can't do in my area

438
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: with it, you know, even outside of the stuff that

439
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: is green and renewable, understanding like how you can and

440
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: cannot use generators in an out emergency, and like which work.

441
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: It's just given me more of an understanding of how

442
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: the regular stuff that I use day to day works

443
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: a little bit better about what the real power draw

444
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 1: of my life is, you know, and anytime you're kind

445
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: of expanding your autonomy technologically, it also just increases the

446
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 1: degree to which you understand what's going on every day,

447
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: which I think is always of value, right, Like, even

448
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: outside of whatever theoreticals we might prompt for like what

449
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: could happen or what is likely to happen, because we're

450
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: all going to deal with more disasters in our lives

451
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: before they're over, hopefully more than one. The alternative is worse.

452
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, well that's kind of all I had to say.

453
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: Did you have anything else you wanted to get into

454
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 1: before we roll out.

455
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there are a bunch of use cases

456
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 2: outside of like whether events or natural disasters to protests

457
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 2: is one of them. A really big security concern when

458
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 2: you're at a protest is bringing your cell phone. Not

459
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 2: a lot of people know that your cell phone has

460
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 2: a unique identifier number, and police governments states all have

461
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 2: technology to basically like bring up a fake cell phone

462
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,479
Speaker 2: tower and have your device connect to it, so there

463
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 2: are ways to track say, for instance, you go to

464
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 2: a protest, you have your phone on. Now your identifier

465
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 2: is kind of tied to being at this protest, right,

466
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 2: But with technology like this, it kind of circumvents that,

467
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 2: especially when it comes to the ability for a threat

468
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 2: actor to track you or know that you've been there.

469
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 2: And it's encrypted, so even if say, for instance, a

470
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 2: police department was able to intercept low raw, they wouldn't

471
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 2: be able to read the messages period. And so that's

472
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 2: another good thing. Same with you know, conflict zones. Yeah,

473
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: you know, we're seeing now with the genocide that's happening

474
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 2: in Palas in the Palestinians, it's increasingly harder for people

475
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: to communicate what areas are safe it's hard to communicate,

476
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: you know, oh, we need to get out now, have

477
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 2: an early warning system of there are literal tanks coming

478
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 2: down the highway towards us, we need to leave. And

479
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 2: so something like this can also be you know, really

480
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 2: good in that situation because again the messages are encrypted,

481
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: it can go pretty long range, especially if you have

482
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 2: direct line of site. We're talking like up to ten miles,

483
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: and so being able to just send a text message

484
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 2: to somebody can save someone's life in a situation like that.

485
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of different use cases outside of

486
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 2: you know, emergencies that this stuff can be used. But

487
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 2: that's where building the autonomy kind of comes from. And

488
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: if we're talking about like leftist political organizing and talking

489
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 2: about building a better future, being autonomous from stay in

490
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 2: corporate control. Infrastructure is really important, right because if say,

491
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,959
Speaker 2: for instance, hypothetically we had the big r Revolution, right, right,

492
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 2: the first thing that people in power are going to

493
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: go after is power, water, sanitation, and communications. Right, They're

494
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 2: going to go after the main infrastructure. And so if

495
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: we want to have an autonomous and free future, we

496
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: have to think about collectively owning the means of infrastructure,

497
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: not just to means of production. Yeah.

498
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 1: Well, and even outside you know, the big R scenario,

499
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: something that I think is probably at least certainly more

500
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: immediate is continuing sort of downs in social order and

501
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: areas expanding where non state actors, including the aforementioned Nazis

502
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: that we had talked about, are able to get bolder, right,

503
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: And like, one thing we've seen right now, if you

504
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: watch videos of cartel operations in parts of Mexico right now,

505
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: one thing you will see on their really good guys,

506
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: right on their special ops style teams, is they will

507
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: all have these weird looking things, look kind of like

508
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: a microphone attached to their plate carriers, and that's a

509
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: cell jammer. It's the standard thing for them to carry

510
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: into the field because it stops people from reporting in

511
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: real time when they're carrying out an operation. And cartels

512
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: are not the only people who do that, right, Like,

513
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: it is a widely used tactic now. You see it

514
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: all over in Ukraine. Right it's in part not just

515
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: because of like cell phones, but because of like shit

516
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: like drones and stuff. It's just an increasingly common thing.

517
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: And so when you're talking about what our threats that

518
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: are realistic, well, it's not just the state that can

519
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: interrupt your ability to communicate traditionally, right, it's also your

520
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: non state opponents. And so for a variety of reasons,

521
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:52,239
Speaker 1: having backups, having alternates is just an incredibly important thing

522
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: to be able to do to some extent, Yeah, definitely, Yeah,

523
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: Well anything else.

524
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: No, I mean, right now, I'm working on a kind

525
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: of step by step article that kind of goes into

526
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: more detail on what you need to do this, all

527
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 2: the equipment you need, how to actually flash devices, how

528
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: to start sending messages, and so once that's ready, I'll

529
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 2: publish it. I publish you know, diy articles and stuff

530
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: to my substack. It's an Archo solar Punk or you

531
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: can go to hydroponictrash dot solar and I have a

532
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 2: link there that goes to substack as well.

533
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: Beautiful. Well, all right, Hydroponic Trash, thank you so much

534
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: for everything. This has really been useful and enlightening. I'm

535
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: going to go hop on to Ali Express in a

536
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: second here and make a couple of purchases, and I'm

537
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: sure there's going to be a number of folks doing

538
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: a version of that.

539
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: Again.

540
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: You can find our guests at Hydroponic trash on Twitter,

541
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: where you can get in touch with them and keep

542
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: an eye on what they're writing their substack. Very very

543
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: excited to play around with this technology. Thank you so

544
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: much for working to make it more visible.

545
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, thanks for having me on.

546
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, it could.

547
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

548
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

549
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

550
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

551
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 2: Listen to podcasts.

552
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,479
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen here, updated

553
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.

554
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening,