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Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. Our guest today is

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Speaker 1: one of the top legal minds in the United States,

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Turley. He is a law professor, columnist, television analyst, litigator,

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Speaker 1: and I have to say I cherish him as a friend.

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Speaker 1: He's just a remarkable um being. Since nineteen ninety eight,

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Speaker 1: he's held a Shapiro Chair for Public Interest Law at

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Speaker 1: George warsh And University Law School. He has served as

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Speaker 1: counsel in some of the most notable cases in the

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Speaker 1: last two decades. He's testified before Congress over one hundred times,

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Speaker 1: including doing the impeachments of President Bill Clinton and Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: He has written for The New York Times, The Wall

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Speaker 1: Street Journal, The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, and USA Today.

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Speaker 1: And I can tell you Jonathan Turley is one of

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Speaker 1: the people. When he writes a column, I read it.

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Speaker 1: I don't care what it's about, because I know that

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Speaker 1: I will learn something and then he'll be approaching it

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Speaker 1: in a unique way. Now he's joining me to discuss

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Speaker 1: his new book, Rage and the Republic, The Unfinished Story

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Speaker 1: of the American Revolution, in which he explores how the

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Speaker 1: unique origins of American democracy set it apart from other revolutions,

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Speaker 1: whether it can survive and thrive in the twenty first century,

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Speaker 1: and how the unfinished story of the Revolution will play

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Speaker 1: out in a rapidly changing world. Jonathan, Welcome and thank

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Speaker 1: you for joining me again on new Tulb.

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Speaker 2: It is such a pleasure to be with you, my friend.

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Speaker 2: When I was writing this book, I would think occasionally

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Speaker 2: this has to pass muster with newt because you are

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Speaker 2: one of the really most profound writers on the US

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Speaker 2: Constitution or history. And so I'm so glad to be

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Speaker 2: able to talk to you the week that the book

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Speaker 2: is being released.

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Speaker 1: Congratulation. I understand the Rage and the Republic is already

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Speaker 1: a bestseller. That's terrific.

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Speaker 2: I'm delighted by it. The funny thing about this book

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Speaker 2: is that, as you know, you tend to invest yourself

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Speaker 2: in these books. But I have never been more engrossed

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Speaker 2: in a project, and part of it was that I

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Speaker 2: tell the story of the American Revolution, particularly in the

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Speaker 2: first half, which looks back at who we are and

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Speaker 2: how we got here through the eyes of Thomas Pain,

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Speaker 2: who was hands down the most interesting historical figure I

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Speaker 2: have ever researched. I drove my kids crazy for five

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Speaker 2: years just digging up things about Thomas Pain. But what

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Speaker 2: was really aspiring about Pain is that he came to

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Speaker 2: this country two years before the declaration of Independence, and

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Speaker 2: when he landed in Philadelphia, he was a wreck He

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Speaker 2: had to be carried off the ship, and he had

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Speaker 2: had it a strange encounter in London. He had failed

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Speaker 2: in everything in his life. He had been fired from

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Speaker 2: every job, his marriages had failed, he was penniless, he

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Speaker 2: was unkept, and he finally met this individual in London

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Speaker 2: who saw something in that pile of wreckage, and that

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Speaker 2: was Benjamin Franklin, and Franklin sent him to the United

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Speaker 2: States and told him, you need to write. Within two

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Speaker 2: years of his landing, he was called the penman of

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Speaker 2: the Revolution. Even his critics like John Adams, who was

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Speaker 2: a bit jealous because of his rocketing fame with common Sense,

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Speaker 2: was asked who was this anonymous writer by his wife,

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Speaker 2: and he said it wasn't me, he said, but I

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Speaker 2: think I know who it was. There's a man named

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Speaker 2: Thomas Paine, and he described a meeting where he said

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Speaker 2: he's a man with genius in his eyes. And it

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Speaker 2: was very true. Paine knew what it took to bring

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Speaker 2: a people to revolution. It was James Madison, who I

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Speaker 2: also talk about, who knew what it took to take

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Speaker 2: a revolution and turn it into a republic.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking that there about Pain, we ought to

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Speaker 1: reproduce common sense and send it all over the world

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Speaker 1: as our answer to all these dictatorships.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a beautiful writer, but he wrote in

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Speaker 2: a way. His prose was penetrating for most Americans, and

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Speaker 2: it was the first best seller. In fact, he did

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Speaker 2: not make money on his very successful books because he

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Speaker 2: kept the prices low so that he could make sure

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Speaker 2: people could buy it, and he donated most of the

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Speaker 2: money to the revolutionary cause. But what makes him fascinating

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Speaker 2: for my book is that he was one of two

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Speaker 2: figures who played a critical role in both the American

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Speaker 2: and French revolutions, the other being Lafayette. And Pain was

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Speaker 2: different from Madison, and that Pain wanted more direct democracy.

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Speaker 2: He didn't like Madison's precautions, and when he went to France,

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Speaker 2: he really did push for more of that general will

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Speaker 2: that Rousseau talked about, that direct democratic impulse, and it

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Speaker 2: came damn near to killing him. He came within a

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Speaker 2: day of being guillotined. He was saved only by accident

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Speaker 2: that a number was written on his door at the

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Speaker 2: Luxembourg prison that all four people in his cellar were

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Speaker 2: to be executed, but because Pain was ill, the door

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Speaker 2: was opened to let erin. So when they came to

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Speaker 2: collect everyone to be guillotined, they never saw the number.

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Speaker 2: That's the only reason Thomas Paine lived and survived the

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Speaker 2: French Revolution.

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Speaker 1: You talk about the fact that the American Republic was

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Speaker 1: born in rage, which I think is a very interesting

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Speaker 1: concept and very different from a lot of the documentaries.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean by that? We know, like most countries,

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Speaker 2: we are the product of revolution, and we are the

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Speaker 2: product of rage. The Boston Tea Party was rage, after all,

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Speaker 2: and that's part of the human reality. That is, it

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Speaker 2: takes a lot to bring a people to rebellion. It

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Speaker 2: takes rage. The challenge is to convert that rage into

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Speaker 2: something productive. It's very easy to start a revolution when

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Speaker 2: rage is high, it's much harder to end one. And

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Speaker 2: so that's reason I compare Philadelphia and Paris as a

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Speaker 2: tale of two cities where violence was again occurring in

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Speaker 2: Philadelphia after the revolution, and at the same time Paris

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Speaker 2: was erupting into violence, but in Philadelphia it stopped almost

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Speaker 2: on a dime, and one of the reasons was the

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Speaker 2: ratification of the US Constitution. Suddenly people had a way

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Speaker 2: to vent that anger, that rage, to convert it into

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Speaker 2: something where they didn't have those precautions. It became a

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Speaker 2: bloodletting known as the Terror. And what I've opened the

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Speaker 2: book with is a statement from one of these French

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Speaker 2: figures who remarked he was one of the few to survive.

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Speaker 2: That revolution is like saturn, it devours its own. He

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Speaker 2: was one of the last people standing. And Pain also

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Speaker 2: made reference to that mythological story, and it's true. The

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Speaker 2: mountain as it was called, those Jacobents, you know, Robespierre,

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Speaker 2: Murraut that I talk about in the book, they were

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Speaker 2: all guillotined one after another. They were devoured. But the

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Speaker 2: United States became the most stable, successful democracy in history.

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Speaker 2: So the question the book raises is why why was

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Speaker 2: this a unique republic? And what can we learn from

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Speaker 2: that looking at the twenty first century, where we are

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Speaker 2: about to encounter challenges that we have never seen before.

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Speaker 1: We get to the challenges, One of I think is

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Speaker 1: that in some polls, sixty three percent of Americans say

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Speaker 1: they have little or no trust in the political system.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that extraordinarily dangerous for our survival?

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Speaker 2: It is, And you're quite right, Nute. The book talks

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Speaker 2: about the rise of what I call the new Jacobins,

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Speaker 2: And like the old Jacobins, the originals, they're not the proletariat.

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Speaker 2: The Jacobins in the French Revolution were professors, journalists, aristocrats.

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Speaker 2: They were part of the establishment. If they ultimately many

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Speaker 2: of them executed themselves, as I knowed it. But the

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Speaker 2: new Jacobins look a lot like those original models. You

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Speaker 2: know that we have the dean of Berkeley Law School

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Speaker 2: saying that the Constitution is a failure. We have law

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Speaker 2: professors saying that we have to trash the Constitution. One

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Speaker 2: of my colleagues is pushing to amend the First Amendment

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Speaker 2: because she says it's aggressively individualistic, which of course is true.

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Speaker 2: The thing of what people have to remember about the

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Speaker 2: American Revolution is it was the first Enlightenment revolution. That's

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Speaker 2: why people were so captivated by it. That's why books

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Speaker 2: had appeared in Europe often described Americans like we were

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Speaker 2: a new species of humanity, because after all, we didn't

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Speaker 2: have any shared land, culture, religion. We had a legacy

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Speaker 2: of ideas, Enlightenment ideas that individual rights belonged to us

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Speaker 2: as a gift from God, not from the government.

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Speaker 1: You make a point that the decoration Independence in one thousand,

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Speaker 1: three hundred and twenty words shatters entire structure of earth

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Speaker 1: based authority and refers to our rights coming from our creator.

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Speaker 1: To what extent do you think that moved across the

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Speaker 1: planet and inspired people.

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Speaker 2: Well, it certainly inspired it at the time. I quote

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Speaker 2: one Frenchman who wrote a very popular book. He wrote

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Speaker 2: under the name Farmer John, and he had a farm

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Speaker 2: in the United States and he used it to describe

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Speaker 2: what was happening. And these copies of his book were

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Speaker 2: snatched up all throughout Europe. But one line really struck

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Speaker 2: me the most, and I quoted a great deal in

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Speaker 2: the book. He said, what then is this American? And

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Speaker 2: that really was the question everyone was asking, what then

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Speaker 2: is this American? Who are these people who think that

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Speaker 2: they can create a republic based on natural rights? They

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Speaker 2: were fascinated by us and inspired by us. The French

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Speaker 2: were pain was given French citizenshift, So it was Washington, so

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Speaker 2: was Madison. But what the French could not tolerate was

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Speaker 2: the limits on democratic power. The Framers were insistent that

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Speaker 2: they didn't want Athenian democracy. Athenian democray was a failure.

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Speaker 2: It ultimately resulted in tyranny. They did not want that.

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Speaker 2: They saw in direct democracy is nothing but a mobocracy,

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Speaker 2: as one said, or democratic despotism. So they created these

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Speaker 2: limits as a protection of liberty. That's what the French

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Speaker 2: refused to accept, and that's what led to the terror.

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Speaker 1: It seems to me that part of it is our

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Speaker 1: founding fathers had a real belief that being human, it's

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Speaker 1: not something you could change dramatically, unlike Soviet man or

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Speaker 1: a Nazi man. Over that matter of French revolution man,

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Speaker 1: that they were up to all the strengths and weaknesses

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Speaker 1: of people, and then trying to develop a machine of

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Speaker 1: government that would protect them from themselves by making it

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Speaker 1: almost impossible for a dictator to make the system work,

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Speaker 1: by making it so unbelievably complicated.

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Speaker 2: There's so much truth in that. The interesting thing about

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Speaker 2: James Madison, I'm considered a Madisonian scholar, even though I've

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Speaker 2: become infatuated with pain. But the thing about Madison is

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Speaker 2: I always chafe a bed when people referred to him

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Speaker 2: as a cynic, he wasn't. In many ways, he might

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Speaker 2: have been the greatest optimist. He accepted us for who

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Speaker 2: we are. Both Monuscue and Madison said, if you want

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Speaker 2: to create a government, you have to start with understanding

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Speaker 2: what a human is. Madison understood that. He particularly understood

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Speaker 2: that in saying that we naturally form factions. We naturally

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Speaker 2: form groups around people like ourselves, and those factions can

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Speaker 2: destroy you unless they have a way of expression where

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Speaker 2: they can have a resolution of their complaints. That's what

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Speaker 2: Madison created. So we have this madness. All of this

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Speaker 2: goes into the center of the legislative branch and it

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Speaker 2: beats around in there with different people with different constituencies

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Speaker 2: and different interests, and what comes out is a majoritarian compromise.

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Speaker 2: It's not in any way neat, and it's not often

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Speaker 2: nice to look at. Topvil himself said, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: a very strange thing to watch Americans. They go in

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Speaker 2: every direction, but somehow they seem to get from A

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Speaker 2: to Z faster than any other country. Tofil that says

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Speaker 2: was kind of overwhelmed by us, almost like one of

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Speaker 2: those science fiction movies. He found himself dropped into a

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Speaker 2: society so dramatically different, so energetic, so decentralized, and so

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Speaker 2: self initiated that compared to the aristocratic world he came

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Speaker 2: out of in Europe, it's almost like he's disoriented half

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Speaker 2: the time. God figure out, how does this work? I

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Speaker 2: think that's true, you know, it's really Lack said that

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Speaker 2: in the beginning, all the world was America. To paraphrase

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Speaker 2: his statement, there was this feeling that this was not

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Speaker 2: just a new world in terms of territory, that it

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Speaker 2: was a new world in terms of humanity. We weren't

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Speaker 2: subject to those calcified class barriers that existed in Europe.

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Speaker 2: People came here to reinvent themselves. Thomas Pain is the

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Speaker 2: best example of that. He was a human wreck. He

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Speaker 2: had failed in everything. He came to these shores to

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Speaker 2: reinvent himself. What he found out was the most valuable

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Speaker 2: thing he had was in his head his ability to write,

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Speaker 2: and within two years, showing the prospect of opportunity. Within

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Speaker 2: two years, Common Sense would be the world's first best

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Speaker 2: seller and he would be the penman of a revolution.

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Speaker 1: Pain writes this amazing common Sense, the country's on fire,

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Speaker 1: and then gradual reality sets in. The British Army is

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Speaker 1: most powerful military in the world. They do start grinding

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Speaker 1: us down, and Washington realizes that the optimism of common

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Speaker 1: sense won't carry us through the war, that we need

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Speaker 1: somebody to explain why it isn't working, and he runs

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Speaker 1: into On the long retreat from New York towards Philadelphia,

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Speaker 1: he runs into Pain, who is marching in the army

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Speaker 1: as a rifleman, and he says, I don't need you

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Speaker 1: as a rifleman. I need you to explain to us

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Speaker 1: why this is so hard, and so he basically sends

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Speaker 1: him onward ahead of the rest of the army, and

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Speaker 1: he goes to Philadelphia and he writes The Crisis. These

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Speaker 1: are the times the trimensuls and The Crisis is his effort.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's the combination of the two books

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Speaker 1: that makes him such a giant in terms of the

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Speaker 1: rise of liberty in America, because the Crisis helps people realize, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be hard, but we can do it.

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Speaker 2: I think that's very true. It's funny because Pain was

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Speaker 2: never really accepted by most of the founder's class. They

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Speaker 2: preferred someone like Jefferson, so do historians. Jefferson was tall

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Speaker 2: and handsome, aradite. He was a landowner, he was a

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Speaker 2: slave owner. Pain was none of those things, including being

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Speaker 2: fervently against slavery. He was also quite frankly a drunkard.

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Speaker 2: He intended to have fights with everyone that he came

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Speaker 2: about in a pub But he had this ability to

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Speaker 2: write beautifully, to speak for a nation and dude. One

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Speaker 2: of the interesting things about the book is I trace

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Speaker 2: him his life all the way through these revolutions, all

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Speaker 2: the way to the end of his life. Probably the

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Speaker 2: lowest moment came in Luxembourg, in the prison, because he

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Speaker 2: felt that Washington had abandoned him. And it was a

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Speaker 2: very telling series of letters because Pain was not very

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Speaker 2: successful on human relationships. He seemed clueless about humans but

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Speaker 2: brilliant about humanity. It's sort of an odd combination. But

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Speaker 2: the one person that he seemed to have a deep

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Speaker 2: attachment to was Washington, who I think he felt almost

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Speaker 2: a father son relationship. He was always there for Washington,

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Speaker 2: and he felt that Washington had abandoned him in that

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Speaker 2: prison and when he was facing the possible end of

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Speaker 2: his life. Ultimately he was spared, but it was one

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Speaker 2: of the most personal moments of Pain where you really

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Speaker 2: got a glimpse into him. There was a deep wounding

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Speaker 2: that he felt.

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Speaker 1: Well. I think he had a very difficult life, partially

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Speaker 1: because he was a very difficult person, and because the

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Speaker 1: founding Fathers are trying to create a structured revolution. Pain's

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Speaker 1: actually against the structure. He's for the revolution, He's not

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Speaker 1: for the structure.

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Speaker 2: That's true. I am a fanatic about film noir. I

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Speaker 2: drive my children crazy. I only watch black and white

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Speaker 2: film noir all day long. I've heard something playing in

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Speaker 2: the background, so truly my children are pushed to the

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Speaker 2: point of insanity. But my favorite line from a film

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Speaker 2: noir came in a Fred Murray picture, and I mentioned

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Speaker 2: it in the book about Pain and Fred Murray is

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Speaker 2: in this scene with the ultimate fem fatale, which he

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Speaker 2: has spent a night with and then realizes that she

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Speaker 2: has betrayed him like her husband once again, and he

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Speaker 2: goes to the door and turns around and delivers the

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Speaker 2: best line ever made in a film noir movie. He says,

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Speaker 2: you know, I love you so much, I only wish

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Speaker 2: I liked you. And with Thomas Pegin, this sort of

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Speaker 2: sums up those of us who love Thomas Paine. It's

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Speaker 2: just really hard to like him.

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Speaker 1: Right, Oh, I think that's exactly right. He would always

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Speaker 1: be better in the abstract. Well, that's what Benjamin Franklin's

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Speaker 1: daughter said. She said, it would have been so much

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Speaker 1: better if you had died after common sense, And I

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Speaker 1: point out in the book this was one of his friends,

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Speaker 1: so you know this.

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Speaker 2: Was not a critic that she meant it.

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Speaker 1: And of course she was exactly wrong, because the crisis

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Speaker 1: in many ways is as important as common sense, and

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Speaker 1: that sustained the moral people forget.

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Speaker 2: This is an a year long war.

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Speaker 1: You wrote something fashion on the other day in the

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Speaker 1: Hill entitled the Remaking of Alex Prenty. What motivated you

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Speaker 1: to write that and what were you trying to.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting because in that column I actually do refer

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Speaker 2: to the Rage and the Republic because there are similarities.

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Speaker 2: I talk about in the book how many of the Jacobins,

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Speaker 2: including the artist David, who really sort of created these

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Speaker 2: abstract perfect heroes, including if you look at David's painting

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Speaker 2: which I have in the book of Marat's death, it's

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Speaker 2: called the Death of Marat. Now, Marat was one of

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Speaker 2: the most blood oaked tyrants in history. He relished sending

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Speaker 2: people to the guillotine. He was assassinated by this beautiful

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Speaker 2: woman by the name of Corday, and the trial of

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Speaker 2: Corday became a turning point against the Jacobins, against the Mountain,

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Speaker 2: against Robespierre. But the painting shows Marat not covered with sores,

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Speaker 2: which he was because he had a rare skin condition.

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Speaker 2: But is this Alabaster almost Pieta in his bathtub where

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Speaker 2: he was killed. The same thing happens in our times

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Speaker 2: that many of the people today who are calling for

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Speaker 2: radical changes, including socialism, communism, the dumping of the American Constitution,

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Speaker 2: they're cut out of the same bolt as some of

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Speaker 2: those Jacobins. As I mentioned, what's interesting about Preddy is

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Speaker 2: that we've had these recent sort of a modern version

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Speaker 2: of David where his image was enhanced by AI to

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Speaker 2: make look more handsome, and Dick Durban on the Senate

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Speaker 2: floor was accused of using an enhanced aiimage that made

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Speaker 2: it look like he was executed with a coup de

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Speaker 2: de grad to the head. All of that is very

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Speaker 2: familiar during these periods where in perfect times demand perfect heroes,

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Speaker 2: and the fact is there was no one perfect that day.

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Speaker 2: There never is. Police shootings are never perfect, but there's

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Speaker 2: this need to make that perfect hero. What concerns me

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Speaker 2: about what we're seeing in places like Minneapolis is it

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Speaker 2: is very familiar. If you read this section on Philadelphia

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Speaker 2: and rage in the Republic, it will read a lot

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Speaker 2: like Minneapolis. Some of the same voices, some of the

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Speaker 2: same demands are being heard, and we saw much of

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Speaker 2: the same violence.

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Speaker 1: You're really drawing, I think a grim lesson for most

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Speaker 1: of us, that is that the French Revolution was passion unbound,

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Speaker 1: and the passion unbound multiplies itself and becomes more and

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Speaker 1: more and more dangerous and more and more self cannibalizing.

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Speaker 1: And what you had with the Americans was, in fact

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Speaker 1: that when the Constitution is written in part in response

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Speaker 1: to Shay's rebellion, because the moneyed class or the dominant

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Speaker 1: figures really don't want to go towards a French revolutionary future.

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Speaker 1: They want to go towards a structured environment in which

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Speaker 1: people can be free but not be endangered. If that

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Speaker 1: makes any sense.

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Speaker 2: No, it does make sense, and that's a critical part

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Speaker 2: of the book. That what concerns me is that we

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Speaker 2: are looking at challenges in this century where we are

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Speaker 2: going to need those values that made this republic such

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Speaker 2: a success. It is an irony that many of these

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Speaker 2: law professors and pundits are calling for the removal of

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Speaker 2: the very precautions that were es central to our success,

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Speaker 2: and if they are lifted, we will go the way

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Speaker 2: of the French Revolution. But I'm actually very optimistic that

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Speaker 2: we can actually come out of this stronger. But we

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Speaker 2: have to still answer that same question that was asked

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Speaker 2: to us by that Frenchman, What then is the American

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Speaker 2: who are we? Not just back then but now. If

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Speaker 2: we can answer that question, then AI and robotics and

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Speaker 2: global governance are not going to be as great a challenges.

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Speaker 2: But if you look at places like the EU, I

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Speaker 2: have left optimism that the EU will survive this process.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I consider EU a great threat. I think

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Speaker 2: consider EU heading very much towards where we saw in

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Speaker 2: the eighteenth century in France. The European Union has gone

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Speaker 2: down a road of bureaucratism and the elites deliberately keeping

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Speaker 2: a lid on the populace by a variety of devices,

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Speaker 2: so that over time you have almost a process of

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Speaker 2: hardening of the arteries as Brussels is more and more

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Speaker 2: out of touch with popular sentiment, and as the bureaucracy

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Speaker 2: is less and less able to modernize and therefore can't

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Speaker 2: deliver the goods and services that are necessary for.

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Speaker 1: People to be comfortable with the government. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't see, frankly, how they get off this, nor do I.

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Speaker 2: You know. I was talking about this book months ago

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Speaker 2: in Prague, and one of the audience members there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of EU people there, said, you seem very optimistic

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Speaker 2: about the United States, but not so much the European Union.

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Speaker 2: And I said, that's correct, because you've destroyed the very

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Speaker 2: values that this book talks about. You have removed the

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Speaker 2: democratic process from individual citizens. My book talks about how

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Speaker 2: all rights are local, just like politics. That the Framers

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Speaker 2: knew that you needed to hold rights the closest. That's

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Speaker 2: why the federalism system was so important. That has all

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Speaker 2: been lost. They have burned away the very structure that

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Speaker 2: they will need to get through this. What I talk

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Speaker 2: on the book is that the combination of robotics and

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Speaker 2: AI are going to result in massive unemployment. Now that

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean that that will be permanent, but there will

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Speaker 2: be a large number of people who are unlikely to

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Speaker 2: get jobs. You've never faced a population a large Capitalism

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Speaker 2: then adjusts and finds what I call homocentric jobs and

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Speaker 2: enterprises that people can do. But that is a challenge

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Speaker 2: for us. The difference about this book is that there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of books talking about the estimate of unemployment

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Speaker 2: that will come from AI and robotics. This book looks

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Speaker 2: at even taking the most conservative estimate on that, how

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Speaker 2: will that change the citizen If we have a large

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Speaker 2: number of people who are supported by the government, how

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Speaker 2: does that change their relationship to the government. We can't

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Speaker 2: have a kept citizenry, as I say in the book,

408
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Speaker 2: and you can't have an arts and craft citizenry. You

409
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Speaker 2: can't have the government just paying you to entertain yourself.

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Speaker 2: It's very important for people to be productive to self realize,

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Speaker 2: much like Thomas Pain did, and so the book explores

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Speaker 2: ways that we can preserve that. And one of the

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Speaker 2: ways we do that is what I call a liberty

414
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Speaker 2: enhancing economy. This book makes it an unabashed case for capitalism.

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Speaker 2: And what people understand is that the same year as

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Speaker 2: our Declaration of independence, Adam Smith published Wealth of Nations.

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Speaker 2: This is also the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of

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Speaker 2: that book, and it did not go over well in

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Speaker 2: Great Britain, but it was a huge success here because

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Speaker 2: the founders recognized that his economic theory was the perfect

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Speaker 2: companion for our political theory. They realized that you couldn't

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Speaker 2: be truly free, you couldn't truly have liberty unless you

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Speaker 2: were economically independent. I think you're going to see enormous

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Speaker 2: stress in the European Union over the next few years,

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Speaker 2: with almost no mechanisms for dealing with it. I have

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Speaker 2: to ask you, to what extent do you see Mandami

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Speaker 2: and the rise of socialism as a threat here in

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Speaker 2: the United States. Well, I spent a lot of time

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Speaker 2: in Raging the Republic talking about the rise in population

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Speaker 2: of socialism and communism. It's largely among younger Americans and Europeans,

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Speaker 2: people who don't have any experience or memory of the

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Speaker 2: collapse of socialist systems in the twentieth century, and so

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Speaker 2: what they have is the sound bites from people like Mondami.

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Speaker 2: They come right out of some Marxist one oh one

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00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 2: college course about the warmth of socialism and the compassion

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00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 2: of socialism. How we just have government stores all of

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00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: which have failed in this spectacular fashion. And you know,

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00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 2: people like Bernie Sanders. You know, it's interesting. I talk

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00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 2: about mit Duran in France, who destroyed the French economy,

440
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: but he was able to get there by promising that

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00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: people didn't have to really work that much anymore. He

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00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 2: even appointed a Minister of leisure. He actually appointed a

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00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: minister who would help the French engage in leisure, which

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00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: is one thing I don't think the French need any

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00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: help on. And of course the economy collapse right. But

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00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: the year that he went into office, an unknown socialist

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00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: named Bernie Sanders was elected mayor of Burlington. Well, you

448
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 2: can be a socialist in Burlington, if you keep it

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00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: small enough, you can eke buy. But what Sanders talks

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00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: about is the Scandinavian model of socialism. And I go

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00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: into it and rage in the republic, saying that it's

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00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 2: a complete myth and the Scandinavians have said that. So

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00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: all of the countries he's pointing to, you've got ministers

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00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: saying we're not socialists, we're ardent capitalists. But that type

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00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: of mythology we have to be able to deal with.

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00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: And that's reason by the way. I'm a big point

457
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 2: of these Trump accounts. They are very significant in that

458
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: you're taking millions of people and giving them not some

459
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 2: abstraction like Wealth of Nations, but an actual account to

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00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: see how individual investment and savings can make your life better.

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00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: That Michael and Susan Dill celebrating the extraordinary for Trump

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00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: Accounts put up six billion, two hundred and fifty million

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00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: dollars and a charitable commitment from them personally. Let me

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00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: ask one last thing, which is here we are in.

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Speaker 1: Our two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the declation independence.

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00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: In a way that was the revolutionary movement, but we actually,

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00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: it seems to me, annually produce our own revolutionary moment

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00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: with the most continuously evolving system in history. I mean,

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00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: what is your take at two hundred and fifty years?

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Speaker 2: We know this book is pretty much about the two

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00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: hundred and fiftieth anniversary and looking back at who we were,

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00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: but who we are, and the book goes through the

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00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: challenges that we're facing and it makes it clear these

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00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: are revolutionary times. We've never encountered. What's coming and that

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00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: is the combination of robotics and AI as well as

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00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: global governance systems. So these are revolutionary times, but we

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00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: are a revolutionary people. That's why we have an answer

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00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 2: as to what then is this American We are something special,

479
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 2: and I think that the key for those of us

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00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: who love this country, particularly on its anniversary, have got

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00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: to remind our friends as who we are what we

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00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 2: have to offer the world. So I think in that concept,

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00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 2: like you, I am a proud American patriot. It seems

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00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: to me that everyday folks have a greater chance to rise,

485
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 2: a greater chance to create, a greater chance to invent

486
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: in the United States than anywhere in the history human race.

487
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: And I have to say it's a great time. I'm

488
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: sure relatively well planned because I know you, and I

489
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 2: think that rage in the Republic has come out at

490
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: exactly the right moment to give us a deep sense

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00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 2: of the passions which, when controlled, led to ongoing freedom

492
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: for more people than ever in human history. In that sense, our.

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00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: Ability to manage rage within the Republic probably keeps us

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00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: endlessly new.

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00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 2: That is very true, Nude, and you've played such a

496
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: significant role in that history, and for many of us

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00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: who've been your friends for so long, you have been

498
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: a north star for many of us in reminding what

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00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: we are, who we are, and what we can still

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00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: be as a people.

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00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: Well, I just want to thank you. This is a

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00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: great conversation is I know it would be. And every

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00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: time I'm with you, I'm struck with how erudite you are,

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00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: how thoughtful you are. Our listeners can follow the work

505
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: you're doing by visiting your website Jonathanturley dot org or

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00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: following you on x Jonathan Turley. In addition, they can

507
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: pick up a copy of Rage in their public and

508
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: continue its bestseller career. So thank you for being with me.

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00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: Thank you newt.

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00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Jonathan Turley. News World is

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00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: produced by Ganglish three sixty and iHeart Media. Our executive

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00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: producer is Guarnsey Slum. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The

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00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: our work for the show was created by Steve Penley.

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00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Ginglish three sixty. If

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00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: you've been enjoying news World, I hope you'll go to

516
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Speaker 1: Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and

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Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's

518
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Speaker 1: all about. Join me on substack at Gingish three sixty

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00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: dot net. I am Newt Gingrich, This is news world,