WEBVTT - Penn Jillette 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.840 Maybe four times a year. We go out to have dinner, 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:05.240 the two of us, four times a year, and we 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:08.360 worked together seven days a week. And the reason is 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:11.720 we go we go out to eat. What you do today, Teller, 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:16.320 Same fucking thing you did, Penn, Same what you do 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.920 twenty years ago, Same thing you did. What was it 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:22.440 like to be with Letterman? Same as it was when 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.880 I was with Letterman? What was it like to do 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:36.919 Saturnight Live? Exactly like it was for you? That's so interesting. Hi. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:38.839 My name is Pen Gillette, and I am more than 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:41.640 half by height of Penn and Teller, but I've been 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:49.720 known to line Hi there, everybody. Oh, I am so 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:55.200 excited for today. Welcome back to Off the Beat. This 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:58.560 is your host, Brian baum Gartner. And today, as you 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:03.040 just heard, I I'm talking with, well with one of 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:09.480 the greatest magic men in history, the extraordinary and extraordinarily 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:14.520 interesting Penn Gillette, who was able to take a field 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:19.000 that was filled with quote, greasy guys in tuxes with 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:22.760 a ton of birds. That's his words, not mine, and 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:27.280 turn it into something truly truly spectacular. You probably know 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:31.039 him as half of the duo Penn and Teller, because 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.720 the two of them have been working side by side 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:39.759 for decades. Forty seven years they have known each other, 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:43.959 Penn told me today, honestly, probably longer than some of 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.720 you have been alive. I know, much longer than many 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:51.520 of you have been alive. They've had hugely successful TV 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.520 shows like Penn and Teller Bullshit and Penn and Teller 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:59.000 fool Us. They've had a residency at the Rio in 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.440 Vegas since two thousand and one. Penn has written books, 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:08.720 had story ideas adapted into amazing television episodes. He played 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:13.120 Freaking Drell on the nineties version of Supreme at the Teenage, 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:17.760 which he has done it all all driven by his 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:23.120 deep intellectual curiosity and his his pure devotion to keeping 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:27.760 things fun and interesting and much like Greg Daniels on 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:31.880 The Office, truthful. So with that little primer, I'm gonna 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.200 let Pen come on so you can hear from the 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:38.040 man himself. I had so much fun talking to Penn today. 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.680 We didn't know each other before today, but I tell 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:43.680 you this, We're going to be friends for life. Ladies 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:53.280 and gentlemen. Penn Gillette, Bubble and Squeak. I love it, 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:59.960 Bubble and Squeak, Bubble and squeaker cooking it every month. 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:14.680 Lift over from the ny What's up? Pen Boy? That 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.679 countdown told me just when to tense up. I got 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:21.680 really tense. I got five seconds to get tense, and 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:26.359 I did it. I'm so good. I am a long 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:30.480 admirer of you and your work. Thank you so much 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.200 for coming to talk to me today. Well, it is mutual. Uh. 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:38.800 My son has watched The Office all the way through, 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:44.400 I believe four times. I can't say that I've watched 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:48.080 every episode with him every time. But if I want 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.680 to win the home theater to watch something, it's always 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:58.240 you on the TV. How old is he? He is? Okay, 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:03.000 that's that's it feels now. Whether they like the show 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:06.680 or don't like the show, it's become cultural required viewing. 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:13.200 And um over supper, he will do whole hunks. Occasionally 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.960 he'll he'll start speaking a little more wittily than usual 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:22.640 and we realize he's quoting The Office. Oh that is awesome. 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:28.720 I oh my gosh, your life, your career is so 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:33.560 fascinating to me. I'm I'm really excited to dive in. 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:37.200 I want to start where you started. You grew up 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.080 in what you described as a dead factory town in 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:46.160 a school system that taught you absolutely nothing, Greenfield, Massachusetts. 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.760 So how how did you how did you occupy your time? 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:56.080 You you are a well educated man. I am not um. 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:01.280 I uh well, when I was about twelve years old, 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:06.640 I realized that I couldn't masturbate all the time, so 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:11.599 I learned to juggle. I didn't think working in show 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:16.520 business or the arts or performance was a possibility. I 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.680 didn't think anybody ever really did that, you know. And 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.440 what I said I was I want to preface this 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.480 by saying I was very close to my father and mother, 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:29.280 and my dad was not did not say this in 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:34.400 any sort of discouraging way. He was just saying what 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.120 we all felt. What I said that I kind of 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.200 felt like I might want to do performing his He said, 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.440 what you think you're Johnny Carson? I mean that, And 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:48.120 he wasn't saying it like you think. He wasn't being 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:50.400 an ass at all. He was being just, oh, so 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:53.400 that's what you think you can do. And I said, 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.960 I I think there are other people besides Johnny Carson. 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.920 I mean they're there are people that like run camera 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.360 and move curtains and stuff. And he went like I guess. 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:08.160 So you know, um, he was so supportive but had 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:13.360 no understanding that you could actually make a living wage 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:17.240 making a joke. So I thought, and I guess I'm 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:21.200 still like this. I believe that you could solve everything 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:26.520 with practice. So my idea was, I was in Greenfield, Massachusetts, 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:30.120 I would be a good enough juggler that the art 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:35.160 talent scouts who we're looking all over the world would say, oh, 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.200 there's a guy who could juggle, Well, let's bring him 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:46.839 into show business. That didn't happen, Okay. I got to 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:50.000 be a good juggler. Why I don't know, but I 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.520 got to be a good juggler, and strangely enough, that 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.200 ended up leading me into show business. Which is the 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:59.279 most amazing part of the story is this twelve year 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:08.680 old hairbraid scheme actually worked. So what what was it 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:14.360 about juggling or how how did that? Yeah? How did 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:16.960 how did it start there? What were you just like 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.800 holding the balls or yearl? I like nothing about it. 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:26.520 I wanted to be in music, Okay. All I cared 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.480 about was music. I did not care about comedy. I 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:33.360 did not care about juggling. I cared about music, but 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.640 I didn't have perfect pitch or even relative pitch. My 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.560 my sense of tone was not good. My sense of 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.640 rhythm was very good. I was a drummer. But there 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:48.200 were people better than me at music at my high school. 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:53.840 And we all know that everyone in Hollywood was the 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:58.240 best in their high school at whatever they're doing. There 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:02.760 was not a better musician. And at Jimmy Hendricks's high school, 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:09.320 Jimmy Hendrix in Hibbing Public High School, there was not 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:13.960 a better songwriter than Bob Dylan. Bob. The fact that 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:17.760 the fact that Phil Tetro was a better musician than 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:22.240 me at Greenfield Public High School and that Phil Tetro 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:26.280 didn't have a chance of being a professional, said well, 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:32.280 I'm not gonna so I I loved music tremendously, but 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:34.920 I thought, well, I'm not going to do that. The 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:37.840 hand that I'm dealt does not give me that. And 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:41.240 I thought I wasn't good looking enough. You know, I 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:45.120 was tall enough for basketball, but I hated sports. So 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.439 you you know, you you fan out the cards you've 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.120 been dealt, and you say, what do you got? And 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:53.959 I said, I can't do anything, but if I practice 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:58.079 a lot, I can learn to juggle. So I went, 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:03.280 now it turns out that probably if I had practiced 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:08.000 as much on music as I had on juggling, I 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:14.360 could have probably been with four or five incredibly lucky breaks, 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:20.479 a D level drummer or bass player, maybe at a 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:25.160 wedding band level, or maybe at a local local band level. 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.680 But you know, uh, you're gonna enter an arena. It's 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:34.240 like why I never write anything or talk about love 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.760 because I'm not gonna go one on one with William Shakespeare. 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.560 You know, I'm not going to enter a competition where 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:51.080 I automatically lose. So in juggling, I didn't know that. 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.680 You know, ignocked Off was gonna be a much better 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:57.600 juggler than me, But it didn't matter because I was 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.760 good enough. I was good enough to get to Ringling Brothers, 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.040 and I was good enough to get those places. And 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.120 then I discovered this thing that I would have never 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:09.199 discovered without juggling, which is I had a had a 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:13.880 juggling team called the toss Ups with Like Motion, who 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.840 was to win a MacArthur Genius Grant for juggling, and 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:20.880 the two of us would perform fifteen dollars for a 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:25.199 nursing home or or due talent shows. And this funny 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:29.800 thing happened. We started out just coming out and I 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.840 would say hello, where the toss ups? And we would juggle, 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:39.840 and then I would start doing little introductions to each juggling, 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:45.400 thing that I would start doing longer introductions to each juggling, 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:52.480 And then I discovered that the less I juggled, the 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:58.240 more successful our juggling troop was. Okay, So that gave 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:02.960 me the confidence that maybe I could do talking as 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:06.800 well as juggling for a living. And if I had 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:11.520 not had but I would have never had the bravery 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:16.200 to attempt stand up or morning DJ or anything like that. 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:22.120 But when I was hired to juggle and people said afterwards, oh, 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:26.640 you talk really good, I felt like that gave me. 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.280 It was like, I'm gonna talk a little bit, but 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:38.720 it's okay because afterwards I'll do really hard stuff. Yes exactly. Now, 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:45.480 looking back, you were you funny starting out? You were entertaining. 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:49.000 I think I I think I was. I think I 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:53.240 was okay funny in my way. And it also gave 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:58.319 me a kind of freedom that you never get because 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:02.440 I never prepare heard what I was gonna say, I 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:06.600 was gonna ask next. You only prepared the juggling. So 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:12.640 it allowed me, as a fourteen fifteen, sixteen year old 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:17.680 to do a hundred percent verbal improvisation in front of people, 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:23.040 which amazing. You never get to do never, never, never. 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:27.560 So by the time I met Teller and want to 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:33.560 do magic, I was already very comfortable walking out on stage. 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.240 As you know, as the crew makes fun of me, 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:40.360 they say, give me twenty minutes and I'll give you 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:48.880 an introduction to a thirty second trick. I have to 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:51.559 ask you about this because obviously we're going to transition 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.959 and and talk about where your life went. But I 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:59.800 read something fascinating that something that was a fundamental building 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:04.920 lock for you and your life became your disdain for 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:11.360 the amazing Kreskin. Yeah, now it is amazing. I want 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:13.840 you to talk to me about that, how how he 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:16.600 came into your life, and then how you felt when 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:19.280 when you found out that you'd been duped. To me, 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:25.439 it's like the mosquito being the most dangerous animal on earth. Okay, 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:32.080 you know, hippopotamus is second. Hippopotamus deserves it. Mosquito does 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:36.680 not deserve it. This dipshit does not have a right 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.040 to have the influence in my life. That he had, 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.480 but god damnit, he did. He was carrying malaria. Who knew. 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:48.880 Crestkin appeared on a television show, which I don't remember 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:52.640 which one, but I know it wasn't Carson because Carson 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:56.000 would not let people like that on. But he appeared 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.840 on probably a daytime talk show. I would probably guess 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:05.280 Mike Douglas, maybe MERV Griffin or something. And he did 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:12.839 a scientific experiment with extrasensory perception and he was flogging 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:18.720 an ESP Science magic kid that had a little pendulum 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:23.680 with idiomatic movements and ESP cards and that kind of job. 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.960 And I was a real fan of science. I was 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:31.680 an avid reader. I considered myself to really like science, 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:37.160 you know. So I watched him have this demonstration of 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:41.880 a scientific principle, and I talked to my parents, who 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:44.680 were not wealthy my dad was a jail guard, you know, 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:49.240 and said, there's this science thing I want to get. 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:53.640 It's Christin's ESP kid. And we bought this kid. And 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:56.440 at the time, my sister was much older than me 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:58.560 had moved out, so I was essentially we were a 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:02.040 three person family. And I made my parents run through 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:06.400 these endless experiments with the SP kit and then and 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:08.960 I refer you, of course, to the Dewey decimal system, 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:11.520 which I know you're a big fan of. Yeah, I'm 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:15.360 a huge fan of that. Juggling and magic are very 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:19.080 close together in the Dewey decimal system because Dewey knew 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:24.960 these were junk art forms. And the Greenfield Public Library, 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.800 where I spent a lot of time, there were two 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.840 books on juggling which I had memorized, and there are 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:35.600 a bunch of books on magic. And as as chance 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.720 would have it, the way I tell this story is 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:42.040 probably not true, but it's the way I remember it. 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:45.480 I picked up the book by dunning Er, who was 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:49.480 a mentalist in the forties, very famous, and I opened 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.600 it up and I remember it as seeing the same 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:56.080 trick Question had done on TV. When I think about 0:15:56.160 --> 0:16:01.240 that objectively, I say, probably wasn't true, you know. But 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:04.760 I saw something that made me see that you could 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:10.720 do tricks like this with trickery. And my reaction could 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:18.280 only be justified by being fourteen years old, absolutely inappropriate, 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:23.000 out of scale. Everywhere, I stopped doing any science. I 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.960 went from an a student to a failing student in science. 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:33.400 I hated all magicians, I hated all scientists, because these 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:37.080 were people who would lie to children. And I put 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:43.000 that chip on my shoulder so strongly and said, well, 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:47.880 you know, Bob Dylan doesn't lie to children. John Lennon 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:52.040 doesn't lie to children. Jack carro Wact doesn't lie to children. 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:56.080 To Move doesn't lie to children. You know, Lenny Bruce 0:16:56.360 --> 0:17:01.120 doesn't lie to children. Fuck the scientists, Thuck the magicians. 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:09.119 I'm going with the people who don't lie to children. Um. 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.040 I also had a chip on my shoulder about magicians 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.040 because you tune into and I'm older than you, I 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:17.359 believe by quite a bit, but I could tune into 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:21.320 the Hollywood Palace and even when I was young, Ed 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:25.439 Sullivan and they would have a great band on like 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:29.600 The Who, and then before that would be a greasy 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:31.920 guy in a tucks with a lot of birds, torturing 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:35.440 women in front of mylar too bad, small dick, rip 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.960 off white boy music, And I was like, stop him, 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.120 break the band down. Why on earth wouldn't The Who 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:48.080 do three songs and let that you know? And as 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:53.199 nobody knows, the Beatles first appearance on Ed Sullivan was 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:58.160 followed by a magician. No, I didn't know that. Yeah, 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:03.159 that's amazing yeah. Uh So it wasn't until I met 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:08.200 tell her and tell her told me and an Amazing Randy. 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.199 When I've read Amazing Randy's book Flim Flam and I 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:15.119 met Teller shortly after that, I understood that you could 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:20.240 do magic honestly, and then also that magic wasn't special. 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:25.960 I mean, by my childhood definition of lying, when you 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:29.040 go on the office, you're lying, you know, because you're 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:34.760 not actually working in an office, it's a studio. Uh. 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:39.120 And you can be honest by just saying we're within 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.800 a proscenium. Robert de Niro is not Travis Pickle. He 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.280 does not drive a taxicab. There's a proscenium, and that 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.159 can extend to magic. And then tell her said to 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:55.480 me a sentence that is complete and utter nonsense that 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:59.560 we have explored for forty seven years, which is that 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:06.520 mad jack is an intellectual art form. And that sounds 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:11.000 like crazy talk until you think that music goes to 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:14.160 your lizard brain. You can tap your foot right away. 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:20.560 You know, poetry goes to your heart, even literature goes directly. 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:25.840 But magic you have to formulate what's impossible and talk 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:30.119 about what doors are closed to allow that to be done. 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:34.159 By the means that you know, so magic engages the 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:39.440 intellect at a level that no other art form does. 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.480 I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm just saying 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:46.159 I believe that's a true thing. And what's interesting to 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:52.119 me is that most other magicians pissed that away. They say, 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.640 put your doubt aside. Come in a magical journey with me. 0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:01.080 No schmuck. The important thing about magic is the unwilling 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:08.080 suspension of disbelief. Shakespeare says, Okay, we're on an island now, 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.160 and there's been a shipwreck, and this guy you saw 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.760 in the deodorant commercial is actually a king, and the 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:22.960 audience goes, okay, Bill, what you got right? And in 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:28.320 magic you come out and go I'm holding this quarter 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:32.480 in my hand, and now it's gone. And you're supposed 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:36.800 to look at that with doubt because he doesn't say, 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:43.199 here's a quarter, let's pretend it's gone, right, And magicians 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:48.879 presented as though they are doing willing suspension of disbelief, 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:53.920 whereas the entire art form is the unwilling suspension disbelief, which, 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:58.160 by the way, the phrase unwilling suspension disbelief was coined 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:02.520 by the greatest mind in magic, which is teller, who 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:06.680 have I written on his back for forty seven years? Wow, 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:10.240 I've never thought about it like that, right, of course, 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.960 because I grew up doing theater, and so it was 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:16.040 all about you know what I mean. There was a 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:17.879 lot of discussion, and then of course when I was 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:21.040 doing more experimental things, it was about, well how do 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:25.600 we change this? Right? But like, there are rules, and 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:28.280 the rule is once you sit down, there is a 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.960 willing suspension of disbelief. Right, And you were fifteen years 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:37.240 old saying you know I'm a salesman. Right, that's right, 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:42.639 that's exactly right. Going, okay, right, we're gonna go with 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:47.280 you here and see where it transports us. Right, okay. Yeah. 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:51.560 When the magic show, the audience never says, okay, this 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:56.639 box is completely empty. Maybe not, we don't show us. 0:21:56.680 --> 0:22:00.680 Bang the back of it, okay, turn it around, Yeah 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:09.600 it's empty. We're not sure. We don't know. Oh sure 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:12.360 looks empty. It made it look empty, but we know 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:15.719 we know you're a magician, so may not be empty. 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:18.800 So it's very different than other forms of the in 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:41.280 your show. What's what's more important? Well, what where do 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:44.720 you feel like you have achieved? Your greatest success. Is 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:49.320 it the tricks or is it the words in between 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:51.600 that you started doing when you were twelve or thirteen. 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:57.280 I I don't think that could be separated. I don't 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:02.160 even see them as different. I I believe and and 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:05.640 tell her to that what matters is the ideas, and 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:09.840 tell her and I usually I can't say always, but 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:12.600 when we're at our best, we start with an idea 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:16.160 that we share, that's in our hearts, that we want 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:20.639 to explore, and the tricks and the jokes come later. 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:25.520 And for me, uh and this is something that with 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:29.840 other comedians, even though my social circle is full of comedians, 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:34.800 there's a difference because I add the jokes last. You know, 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:38.600 we will run through stuff until I feel the ideas 0:23:38.640 --> 0:23:42.320 are clear, and then I'll kind of try to make 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:45.440 it funny. I mean, obviously there are exceptions, but there 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:48.679 are very few where I started out going, this is 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:51.000 the joke we gotta get to. We gotta get to 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:55.040 this joke. It may it may surprise lay people that 0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:59.399 I cut a lot of jokes that could huge laughs, 0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:03.000 but that there it's the wrong kind of laugh, or 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:08.080 it doesn't build the idea that's genius, you know, you've 0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:10.600 got to do that. Uh. I have a really good 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:14.480 example of that. There's a there's a joke, an obvious joke, 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:18.440 absolutely clearly obvious joke that three of us in Vegas 0:24:19.119 --> 0:24:23.040 did simultaneously because it's an obvious ad lib. We all 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:28.720 got huge laughs and we all cut it the next night. Uh. 0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:33.480 That was when Vegas first opened up. You can figure 0:24:34.080 --> 0:24:37.320 the kinds of people that first came to Vegas. They 0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:41.320 were the kind of people that were not risk averse 0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:45.919 for whatever reasons, to be polite, to be polite. And 0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:48.639 it was also, and this is a little bit chilling, 0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:53.120 it was wonderful for the gambling industry. The people who 0:24:53.160 --> 0:24:57.480 came in early without fear of COVID. We're also big gamblers. 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:02.520 So I was doing an act. Michael Goudeau, a juggler, 0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:05.320 was doing an act. Piff the Magic Dragon, the magician, 0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:08.720 was doing an act at all of us at different places. 0:25:08.800 --> 0:25:11.320 Said there was one moment I was holding a torch 0:25:11.400 --> 0:25:13.200 and I said, if you doubt this is real fire, 0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:16.760 I'll come in to the audience, stick this into your eye. Okay, 0:25:16.960 --> 0:25:19.879 just a little turn. And then I followed it one 0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:23.199 night because it was obvious by saying, but I'll be 0:25:23.240 --> 0:25:26.160 safe about it. I'll put a mask on. Huge laugh, 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:34.840 after which I hated every person of the audience because 0:25:34.880 --> 0:25:38.000 they weren't laughing like, oh, this is a pandemic we're in. 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:42.639 They were laughing, Oh, those mass things are bullshit, And 0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:45.360 it was like whoa. And it was really funny because 0:25:45.400 --> 0:25:48.400 I was telling that story to Piff like a week 0:25:48.480 --> 0:25:51.280 later at Piff went yeah, I did the same joke, 0:25:51.520 --> 0:25:55.639 cut it the same night, and then Gougo said me too. 0:25:55.960 --> 0:25:59.560 I was up on a unicycle juggling knives, and I said, 0:25:59.760 --> 0:26:02.080 I want to make the safer. I'll put a mask 0:26:02.200 --> 0:26:07.760 on anyway. Whoa, No, I didn't need to do that, Chike. No, No. 0:26:09.000 --> 0:26:11.040 But that's a case of cutting it for what I 0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:14.880 would call moral or emotional rights. And then there are 0:26:15.240 --> 0:26:19.200 many many more cases of cutting it because that that 0:26:19.320 --> 0:26:23.200 confuses the trick, that confuses the idea. It's so interesting 0:26:23.240 --> 0:26:26.600 to hear you say that. I've discussed this a little 0:26:26.600 --> 0:26:32.640 bit on here, but it's why I consider Steve Correll 0:26:33.119 --> 0:26:39.200 to be maybe the greatest improviser of now and up 0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:42.199 there with any of the legends. And it's because of that. 0:26:42.280 --> 0:26:46.240 I watched it for ten years. He had full license 0:26:46.320 --> 0:26:48.840 to try and do whatever he wanted. But what he 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:54.720 was able to do was to improvise on character and 0:26:55.040 --> 0:27:00.320 on story, and and the ability to do that after 0:27:00.400 --> 0:27:04.359 day after day and stay there and not take the 0:27:04.440 --> 0:27:08.280 cheap joke, not take a joke that we can land 0:27:08.400 --> 0:27:10.600 because we know we're going to get a laugh that 0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:15.560 doesn't further the story or in your case, what what 0:27:15.600 --> 0:27:18.520 you're wanting to explore in this particular show or whatever. 0:27:19.200 --> 0:27:23.000 And stay true to the character that you've created. Have 0:27:23.119 --> 0:27:27.840 you created a character? Jeez? You know? Of course? I mean, 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:32.159 of course, Uh, you can't claim to be yourself on 0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:35.640 stage because I don't say the same things every night 0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:41.920 and do the same tricks. However I try, I don't know. Try. 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:44.760 It gives me too much credit. I don't have a choice. 0:27:45.200 --> 0:27:48.080 I'm not a good actor. I haven't studied acting ever. 0:27:48.560 --> 0:27:52.840 I have no skills in acting. I'm a performer. And 0:27:52.880 --> 0:27:58.200 that distinction is unimportant to lay people, and crystal clear 0:27:58.680 --> 0:28:03.520 to anybody who is one of the So I don't 0:28:03.640 --> 0:28:11.280 think at all about character. I think first person myself 0:28:11.640 --> 0:28:15.440 all the time. I realized that's a cheat, and that's 0:28:15.480 --> 0:28:19.280 a lie. And if we're to analyze it. I'm obviously 0:28:19.320 --> 0:28:23.560 doing a character, but I have removed that line of 0:28:23.600 --> 0:28:27.719 make believe, and I believe that I'm really saying on 0:28:27.840 --> 0:28:32.080 stage what I feel. Therefore, I have to align that 0:28:32.600 --> 0:28:35.920 as much as possible. So when they bring me in 0:28:35.960 --> 0:28:38.480 for acting roles, and I've done quite a few things, 0:28:39.320 --> 0:28:42.400 I always saved them. Listen to me as I walk 0:28:42.480 --> 0:28:46.440 in the room. Look at me. If that's precisely what 0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:51.280 you want for the character, hire me. If you want 0:28:51.360 --> 0:29:00.360 things faster, slower, louder, softer, angrier, pleasanter, sweeter, kinder. I 0:29:00.400 --> 0:29:04.080 can do all of that. But if you want someone different, 0:29:04.680 --> 0:29:06.920 you've got to pick someone else that's in that room, 0:29:07.120 --> 0:29:10.800 because I can't do it. There are people that I 0:29:10.880 --> 0:29:14.640 know who are men of a hundred voices. I am 0:29:14.680 --> 0:29:18.360 a man of one voice and one character. You can 0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:21.320