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Speaker 1: Maybe four times a year. We go out to have dinner,

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Speaker 1: the two of us, four times a year, and we

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Speaker 1: worked together seven days a week. And the reason is

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Speaker 1: we go we go out to eat. What you do today, Teller,

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Speaker 1: Same fucking thing you did, Penn, Same what you do

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Speaker 1: twenty years ago, Same thing you did. What was it

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Speaker 1: like to be with Letterman? Same as it was when

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Speaker 1: I was with Letterman? What was it like to do

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Speaker 1: Saturnight Live? Exactly like it was for you? That's so interesting. Hi.

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Speaker 1: My name is Pen Gillette, and I am more than

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Speaker 1: half by height of Penn and Teller, but I've been

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Speaker 1: known to line Hi there, everybody. Oh, I am so

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Speaker 1: excited for today. Welcome back to Off the Beat. This

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Speaker 1: is your host, Brian baum Gartner. And today, as you

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Speaker 1: just heard, I I'm talking with, well with one of

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Speaker 1: the greatest magic men in history, the extraordinary and extraordinarily

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Speaker 1: interesting Penn Gillette, who was able to take a field

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Speaker 1: that was filled with quote, greasy guys in tuxes with

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Speaker 1: a ton of birds. That's his words, not mine, and

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Speaker 1: turn it into something truly truly spectacular. You probably know

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Speaker 1: him as half of the duo Penn and Teller, because

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Speaker 1: the two of them have been working side by side

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Speaker 1: for decades. Forty seven years they have known each other,

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Speaker 1: Penn told me today, honestly, probably longer than some of

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Speaker 1: you have been alive. I know, much longer than many

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Speaker 1: of you have been alive. They've had hugely successful TV

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Speaker 1: shows like Penn and Teller Bullshit and Penn and Teller

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Speaker 1: fool Us. They've had a residency at the Rio in

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Speaker 1: Vegas since two thousand and one. Penn has written books,

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Speaker 1: had story ideas adapted into amazing television episodes. He played

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Speaker 1: Freaking Drell on the nineties version of Supreme at the Teenage,

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Speaker 1: which he has done it all all driven by his

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Speaker 1: deep intellectual curiosity and his his pure devotion to keeping

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Speaker 1: things fun and interesting and much like Greg Daniels on

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Speaker 1: The Office, truthful. So with that little primer, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: let Pen come on so you can hear from the

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Speaker 1: man himself. I had so much fun talking to Penn today.

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Speaker 1: We didn't know each other before today, but I tell

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Speaker 1: you this, We're going to be friends for life. Ladies

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Speaker 1: and gentlemen. Penn Gillette, Bubble and Squeak. I love it,

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Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeak, Bubble and squeaker cooking it every month.

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Speaker 1: Lift over from the ny What's up? Pen Boy? That

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Speaker 1: countdown told me just when to tense up. I got

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Speaker 1: really tense. I got five seconds to get tense, and

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Speaker 1: I did it. I'm so good. I am a long

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Speaker 1: admirer of you and your work. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for coming to talk to me today. Well, it is mutual. Uh.

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Speaker 1: My son has watched The Office all the way through,

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Speaker 1: I believe four times. I can't say that I've watched

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Speaker 1: every episode with him every time. But if I want

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Speaker 1: to win the home theater to watch something, it's always

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Speaker 1: you on the TV. How old is he? He is? Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's that's it feels now. Whether they like the show

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Speaker 1: or don't like the show, it's become cultural required viewing.

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Speaker 1: And um over supper, he will do whole hunks. Occasionally

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Speaker 1: he'll he'll start speaking a little more wittily than usual

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Speaker 1: and we realize he's quoting The Office. Oh that is awesome.

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Speaker 1: I oh my gosh, your life, your career is so

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Speaker 1: fascinating to me. I'm I'm really excited to dive in.

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Speaker 1: I want to start where you started. You grew up

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Speaker 1: in what you described as a dead factory town in

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Speaker 1: a school system that taught you absolutely nothing, Greenfield, Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: So how how did you how did you occupy your time?

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Speaker 1: You you are a well educated man. I am not um.

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Speaker 1: I uh well, when I was about twelve years old,

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Speaker 1: I realized that I couldn't masturbate all the time, so

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Speaker 1: I learned to juggle. I didn't think working in show

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Speaker 1: business or the arts or performance was a possibility. I

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Speaker 1: didn't think anybody ever really did that, you know. And

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Speaker 1: what I said I was I want to preface this

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Speaker 1: by saying I was very close to my father and mother,

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Speaker 1: and my dad was not did not say this in

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Speaker 1: any sort of discouraging way. He was just saying what

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Speaker 1: we all felt. What I said that I kind of

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Speaker 1: felt like I might want to do performing his He said,

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Speaker 1: what you think you're Johnny Carson? I mean that, And

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Speaker 1: he wasn't saying it like you think. He wasn't being

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Speaker 1: an ass at all. He was being just, oh, so

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Speaker 1: that's what you think you can do. And I said,

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Speaker 1: I I think there are other people besides Johnny Carson.

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Speaker 1: I mean they're there are people that like run camera

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Speaker 1: and move curtains and stuff. And he went like I guess.

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Speaker 1: So you know, um, he was so supportive but had

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Speaker 1: no understanding that you could actually make a living wage

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Speaker 1: making a joke. So I thought, and I guess I'm

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Speaker 1: still like this. I believe that you could solve everything

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Speaker 1: with practice. So my idea was, I was in Greenfield, Massachusetts,

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Speaker 1: I would be a good enough juggler that the art

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Speaker 1: talent scouts who we're looking all over the world would say, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's a guy who could juggle, Well, let's bring him

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Speaker 1: into show business. That didn't happen, Okay. I got to

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Speaker 1: be a good juggler. Why I don't know, but I

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Speaker 1: got to be a good juggler, and strangely enough, that

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Speaker 1: ended up leading me into show business. Which is the

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Speaker 1: most amazing part of the story is this twelve year

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Speaker 1: old hairbraid scheme actually worked. So what what was it

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Speaker 1: about juggling or how how did that? Yeah? How did

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Speaker 1: how did it start there? What were you just like

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Speaker 1: holding the balls or yearl? I like nothing about it.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be in music, Okay. All I cared

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Speaker 1: about was music. I did not care about comedy. I

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Speaker 1: did not care about juggling. I cared about music, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't have perfect pitch or even relative pitch. My

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Speaker 1: my sense of tone was not good. My sense of

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Speaker 1: rhythm was very good. I was a drummer. But there

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Speaker 1: were people better than me at music at my high school.

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Speaker 1: And we all know that everyone in Hollywood was the

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Speaker 1: best in their high school at whatever they're doing. There

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Speaker 1: was not a better musician. And at Jimmy Hendricks's high school,

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Hendrix in Hibbing Public High School, there was not

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Speaker 1: a better songwriter than Bob Dylan. Bob. The fact that

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Speaker 1: the fact that Phil Tetro was a better musician than

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Speaker 1: me at Greenfield Public High School and that Phil Tetro

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Speaker 1: didn't have a chance of being a professional, said well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna so I I loved music tremendously, but

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Speaker 1: I thought, well, I'm not going to do that. The

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Speaker 1: hand that I'm dealt does not give me that. And

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Speaker 1: I thought I wasn't good looking enough. You know, I

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Speaker 1: was tall enough for basketball, but I hated sports. So

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Speaker 1: you you know, you you fan out the cards you've

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Speaker 1: been dealt, and you say, what do you got? And

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Speaker 1: I said, I can't do anything, but if I practice

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Speaker 1: a lot, I can learn to juggle. So I went,

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Speaker 1: now it turns out that probably if I had practiced

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Speaker 1: as much on music as I had on juggling, I

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Speaker 1: could have probably been with four or five incredibly lucky breaks,

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Speaker 1: a D level drummer or bass player, maybe at a

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Speaker 1: wedding band level, or maybe at a local local band level.

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Speaker 1: But you know, uh, you're gonna enter an arena. It's

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Speaker 1: like why I never write anything or talk about love

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Speaker 1: because I'm not gonna go one on one with William Shakespeare.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm not going to enter a competition where

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Speaker 1: I automatically lose. So in juggling, I didn't know that.

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Speaker 1: You know, ignocked Off was gonna be a much better

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Speaker 1: juggler than me, But it didn't matter because I was

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Speaker 1: good enough. I was good enough to get to Ringling Brothers,

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Speaker 1: and I was good enough to get those places. And

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Speaker 1: then I discovered this thing that I would have never

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Speaker 1: discovered without juggling, which is I had a had a

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Speaker 1: juggling team called the toss Ups with Like Motion, who

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Speaker 1: was to win a MacArthur Genius Grant for juggling, and

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Speaker 1: the two of us would perform fifteen dollars for a

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Speaker 1: nursing home or or due talent shows. And this funny

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Speaker 1: thing happened. We started out just coming out and I

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Speaker 1: would say hello, where the toss ups? And we would juggle,

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Speaker 1: and then I would start doing little introductions to each juggling,

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Speaker 1: thing that I would start doing longer introductions to each juggling,

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Speaker 1: And then I discovered that the less I juggled, the

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Speaker 1: more successful our juggling troop was. Okay, So that gave

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Speaker 1: me the confidence that maybe I could do talking as

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Speaker 1: well as juggling for a living. And if I had

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Speaker 1: not had but I would have never had the bravery

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Speaker 1: to attempt stand up or morning DJ or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: But when I was hired to juggle and people said afterwards, oh,

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Speaker 1: you talk really good, I felt like that gave me.

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Speaker 1: It was like, I'm gonna talk a little bit, but

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Speaker 1: it's okay because afterwards I'll do really hard stuff. Yes exactly. Now,

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Speaker 1: looking back, you were you funny starting out? You were entertaining.

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Speaker 1: I think I I think I was. I think I

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Speaker 1: was okay funny in my way. And it also gave

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Speaker 1: me a kind of freedom that you never get because

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Speaker 1: I never prepare heard what I was gonna say, I

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Speaker 1: was gonna ask next. You only prepared the juggling. So

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Speaker 1: it allowed me, as a fourteen fifteen, sixteen year old

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Speaker 1: to do a hundred percent verbal improvisation in front of people,

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Speaker 1: which amazing. You never get to do never, never, never.

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Speaker 1: So by the time I met Teller and want to

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Speaker 1: do magic, I was already very comfortable walking out on stage.

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Speaker 1: As you know, as the crew makes fun of me,

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Speaker 1: they say, give me twenty minutes and I'll give you

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Speaker 1: an introduction to a thirty second trick. I have to

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Speaker 1: ask you about this because obviously we're going to transition

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Speaker 1: and and talk about where your life went. But I

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Speaker 1: read something fascinating that something that was a fundamental building

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Speaker 1: lock for you and your life became your disdain for

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Speaker 1: the amazing Kreskin. Yeah, now it is amazing. I want

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Speaker 1: you to talk to me about that, how how he

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Speaker 1: came into your life, and then how you felt when

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Speaker 1: when you found out that you'd been duped. To me,

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Speaker 1: it's like the mosquito being the most dangerous animal on earth. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, hippopotamus is second. Hippopotamus deserves it. Mosquito does

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Speaker 1: not deserve it. This dipshit does not have a right

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Speaker 1: to have the influence in my life. That he had,

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Speaker 1: but god damnit, he did. He was carrying malaria. Who knew.

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Speaker 1: Crestkin appeared on a television show, which I don't remember

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Speaker 1: which one, but I know it wasn't Carson because Carson

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Speaker 1: would not let people like that on. But he appeared

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Speaker 1: on probably a daytime talk show. I would probably guess

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Speaker 1: Mike Douglas, maybe MERV Griffin or something. And he did

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Speaker 1: a scientific experiment with extrasensory perception and he was flogging

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Speaker 1: an ESP Science magic kid that had a little pendulum

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Speaker 1: with idiomatic movements and ESP cards and that kind of job.

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Speaker 1: And I was a real fan of science. I was

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Speaker 1: an avid reader. I considered myself to really like science,

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Speaker 1: you know. So I watched him have this demonstration of

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Speaker 1: a scientific principle, and I talked to my parents, who

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Speaker 1: were not wealthy my dad was a jail guard, you know,

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Speaker 1: and said, there's this science thing I want to get.

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Speaker 1: It's Christin's ESP kid. And we bought this kid. And

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Speaker 1: at the time, my sister was much older than me

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Speaker 1: had moved out, so I was essentially we were a

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Speaker 1: three person family. And I made my parents run through

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Speaker 1: these endless experiments with the SP kit and then and

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Speaker 1: I refer you, of course, to the Dewey decimal system,

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Speaker 1: which I know you're a big fan of. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: a huge fan of that. Juggling and magic are very

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Speaker 1: close together in the Dewey decimal system because Dewey knew

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Speaker 1: these were junk art forms. And the Greenfield Public Library,

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Speaker 1: where I spent a lot of time, there were two

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Speaker 1: books on juggling which I had memorized, and there are

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Speaker 1: a bunch of books on magic. And as as chance

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Speaker 1: would have it, the way I tell this story is

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Speaker 1: probably not true, but it's the way I remember it.

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Speaker 1: I picked up the book by dunning Er, who was

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Speaker 1: a mentalist in the forties, very famous, and I opened

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Speaker 1: it up and I remember it as seeing the same

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Speaker 1: trick Question had done on TV. When I think about

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Speaker 1: that objectively, I say, probably wasn't true, you know. But

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Speaker 1: I saw something that made me see that you could

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Speaker 1: do tricks like this with trickery. And my reaction could

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Speaker 1: only be justified by being fourteen years old, absolutely inappropriate,

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Speaker 1: out of scale. Everywhere, I stopped doing any science. I

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Speaker 1: went from an a student to a failing student in science.

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Speaker 1: I hated all magicians, I hated all scientists, because these

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Speaker 1: were people who would lie to children. And I put

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Speaker 1: that chip on my shoulder so strongly and said, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, Bob Dylan doesn't lie to children. John Lennon

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Speaker 1: doesn't lie to children. Jack carro Wact doesn't lie to children.

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Speaker 1: To Move doesn't lie to children. You know, Lenny Bruce

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Speaker 1: doesn't lie to children. Fuck the scientists, Thuck the magicians.

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Speaker 1: I'm going with the people who don't lie to children. Um.

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Speaker 1: I also had a chip on my shoulder about magicians

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Speaker 1: because you tune into and I'm older than you, I

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Speaker 1: believe by quite a bit, but I could tune into

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Speaker 1: the Hollywood Palace and even when I was young, Ed

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Speaker 1: Sullivan and they would have a great band on like

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Speaker 1: The Who, and then before that would be a greasy

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Speaker 1: guy in a tucks with a lot of birds, torturing

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Speaker 1: women in front of mylar too bad, small dick, rip

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Speaker 1: off white boy music, And I was like, stop him,

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Speaker 1: break the band down. Why on earth wouldn't The Who

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Speaker 1: do three songs and let that you know? And as

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Speaker 1: nobody knows, the Beatles first appearance on Ed Sullivan was

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Speaker 1: followed by a magician. No, I didn't know that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's amazing yeah. Uh So it wasn't until I met

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Speaker 1: tell her and tell her told me and an Amazing Randy.

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Speaker 1: When I've read Amazing Randy's book Flim Flam and I

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Speaker 1: met Teller shortly after that, I understood that you could

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Speaker 1: do magic honestly, and then also that magic wasn't special.

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Speaker 1: I mean, by my childhood definition of lying, when you

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Speaker 1: go on the office, you're lying, you know, because you're

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Speaker 1: not actually working in an office, it's a studio. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And you can be honest by just saying we're within

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Speaker 1: a proscenium. Robert de Niro is not Travis Pickle. He

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Speaker 1: does not drive a taxicab. There's a proscenium, and that

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Speaker 1: can extend to magic. And then tell her said to

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Speaker 1: me a sentence that is complete and utter nonsense that

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Speaker 1: we have explored for forty seven years, which is that

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Speaker 1: mad jack is an intellectual art form. And that sounds

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Speaker 1: like crazy talk until you think that music goes to

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Speaker 1: your lizard brain. You can tap your foot right away.

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Speaker 1: You know, poetry goes to your heart, even literature goes directly.

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Speaker 1: But magic you have to formulate what's impossible and talk

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Speaker 1: about what doors are closed to allow that to be done.

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Speaker 1: By the means that you know, so magic engages the

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Speaker 1: intellect at a level that no other art form does.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm just saying

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Speaker 1: I believe that's a true thing. And what's interesting to

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Speaker 1: me is that most other magicians pissed that away. They say,

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Speaker 1: put your doubt aside. Come in a magical journey with me.

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Speaker 1: No schmuck. The important thing about magic is the unwilling

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Speaker 1: suspension of disbelief. Shakespeare says, Okay, we're on an island now,

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Speaker 1: and there's been a shipwreck, and this guy you saw

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Speaker 1: in the deodorant commercial is actually a king, and the

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Speaker 1: audience goes, okay, Bill, what you got right? And in

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Speaker 1: magic you come out and go I'm holding this quarter

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Speaker 1: in my hand, and now it's gone. And you're supposed

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Speaker 1: to look at that with doubt because he doesn't say,

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Speaker 1: here's a quarter, let's pretend it's gone, right, And magicians

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Speaker 1: presented as though they are doing willing suspension of disbelief,

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Speaker 1: whereas the entire art form is the unwilling suspension disbelief, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, the phrase unwilling suspension disbelief was coined

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Speaker 1: by the greatest mind in magic, which is teller, who

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Speaker 1: have I written on his back for forty seven years? Wow,

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Speaker 1: I've never thought about it like that, right, of course,

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Speaker 1: because I grew up doing theater, and so it was

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Speaker 1: all about you know what I mean. There was a

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Speaker 1: lot of discussion, and then of course when I was

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Speaker 1: doing more experimental things, it was about, well how do

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Speaker 1: we change this? Right? But like, there are rules, and

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Speaker 1: the rule is once you sit down, there is a

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Speaker 1: willing suspension of disbelief. Right, And you were fifteen years

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Speaker 1: old saying you know I'm a salesman. Right, that's right,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly right. Going, okay, right, we're gonna go with

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Speaker 1: you here and see where it transports us. Right, okay. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: When the magic show, the audience never says, okay, this

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Speaker 1: box is completely empty. Maybe not, we don't show us.

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Speaker 1: Bang the back of it, okay, turn it around, Yeah

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Speaker 1: it's empty. We're not sure. We don't know. Oh sure

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Speaker 1: looks empty. It made it look empty, but we know

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Speaker 1: we know you're a magician, so may not be empty.

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Speaker 1: So it's very different than other forms of the in

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Speaker 1: your show. What's what's more important? Well, what where do

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Speaker 1: you feel like you have achieved? Your greatest success. Is

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Speaker 1: it the tricks or is it the words in between

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Speaker 1: that you started doing when you were twelve or thirteen.

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Speaker 1: I I don't think that could be separated. I don't

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Speaker 1: even see them as different. I I believe and and

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Speaker 1: tell her to that what matters is the ideas, and

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Speaker 1: tell her and I usually I can't say always, but

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Speaker 1: when we're at our best, we start with an idea

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Speaker 1: that we share, that's in our hearts, that we want

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Speaker 1: to explore, and the tricks and the jokes come later.

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Speaker 1: And for me, uh and this is something that with

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Speaker 1: other comedians, even though my social circle is full of comedians,

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Speaker 1: there's a difference because I add the jokes last. You know,

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Speaker 1: we will run through stuff until I feel the ideas

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Speaker 1: are clear, and then I'll kind of try to make

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Speaker 1: it funny. I mean, obviously there are exceptions, but there

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Speaker 1: are very few where I started out going, this is

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Speaker 1: the joke we gotta get to. We gotta get to

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Speaker 1: this joke. It may it may surprise lay people that

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Speaker 1: I cut a lot of jokes that could huge laughs,

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Speaker 1: but that there it's the wrong kind of laugh, or

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Speaker 1: it doesn't build the idea that's genius, you know, you've

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Speaker 1: got to do that. Uh. I have a really good

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Speaker 1: example of that. There's a there's a joke, an obvious joke,

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Speaker 1: absolutely clearly obvious joke that three of us in Vegas

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Speaker 1: did simultaneously because it's an obvious ad lib. We all

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Speaker 1: got huge laughs and we all cut it the next night. Uh.

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Speaker 1: That was when Vegas first opened up. You can figure

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Speaker 1: the kinds of people that first came to Vegas. They

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Speaker 1: were the kind of people that were not risk averse

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Speaker 1: for whatever reasons, to be polite, to be polite. And

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Speaker 1: it was also, and this is a little bit chilling,

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Speaker 1: it was wonderful for the gambling industry. The people who

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Speaker 1: came in early without fear of COVID. We're also big gamblers.

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Speaker 1: So I was doing an act. Michael Goudeau, a juggler,

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Speaker 1: was doing an act. Piff the Magic Dragon, the magician,

340
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Speaker 1: was doing an act at all of us at different places.

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Speaker 1: Said there was one moment I was holding a torch

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Speaker 1: and I said, if you doubt this is real fire,

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Speaker 1: I'll come in to the audience, stick this into your eye. Okay,

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Speaker 1: just a little turn. And then I followed it one

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Speaker 1: night because it was obvious by saying, but I'll be

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Speaker 1: safe about it. I'll put a mask on. Huge laugh,

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Speaker 1: after which I hated every person of the audience because

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Speaker 1: they weren't laughing like, oh, this is a pandemic we're in.

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Speaker 1: They were laughing, Oh, those mass things are bullshit, And

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Speaker 1: it was like whoa. And it was really funny because

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Speaker 1: I was telling that story to Piff like a week

352
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Speaker 1: later at Piff went yeah, I did the same joke,

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Speaker 1: cut it the same night, and then Gougo said me too.

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Speaker 1: I was up on a unicycle juggling knives, and I said,

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Speaker 1: I want to make the safer. I'll put a mask

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Speaker 1: on anyway. Whoa, No, I didn't need to do that, Chike. No, No.

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Speaker 1: But that's a case of cutting it for what I

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Speaker 1: would call moral or emotional rights. And then there are

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Speaker 1: many many more cases of cutting it because that that

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00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: confuses the trick, that confuses the idea. It's so interesting

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Speaker 1: to hear you say that. I've discussed this a little

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Speaker 1: bit on here, but it's why I consider Steve Correll

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Speaker 1: to be maybe the greatest improviser of now and up

364
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Speaker 1: there with any of the legends. And it's because of that.

365
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Speaker 1: I watched it for ten years. He had full license

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Speaker 1: to try and do whatever he wanted. But what he

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00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: was able to do was to improvise on character and

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Speaker 1: on story, and and the ability to do that after

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Speaker 1: day after day and stay there and not take the

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Speaker 1: cheap joke, not take a joke that we can land

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Speaker 1: because we know we're going to get a laugh that

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00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: doesn't further the story or in your case, what what

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Speaker 1: you're wanting to explore in this particular show or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And stay true to the character that you've created. Have

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Speaker 1: you created a character? Jeez? You know? Of course? I mean,

376
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: of course, Uh, you can't claim to be yourself on

377
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Speaker 1: stage because I don't say the same things every night

378
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Speaker 1: and do the same tricks. However I try, I don't know. Try.

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Speaker 1: It gives me too much credit. I don't have a choice.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a good actor. I haven't studied acting ever.

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Speaker 1: I have no skills in acting. I'm a performer. And

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00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: that distinction is unimportant to lay people, and crystal clear

383
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: to anybody who is one of the So I don't

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00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: think at all about character. I think first person myself

385
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: all the time. I realized that's a cheat, and that's

386
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: a lie. And if we're to analyze it. I'm obviously

387
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: doing a character, but I have removed that line of

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00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 1: make believe, and I believe that I'm really saying on

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Speaker 1: stage what I feel. Therefore, I have to align that

390
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: as much as possible. So when they bring me in

391
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Speaker 1: for acting roles, and I've done quite a few things,

392
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: I always saved them. Listen to me as I walk

393
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Speaker 1: in the room. Look at me. If that's precisely what

394
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: you want for the character, hire me. If you want

395
00:28:51,360 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: things faster, slower, louder, softer, angrier, pleasanter, sweeter, kinder. I

396
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: can do all of that. But if you want someone different,

397
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: you've got to pick someone else that's in that room,

398
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: because I can't do it. There are people that I

399
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: know who are men of a hundred voices. I am

400
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: a man of one voice and one character. You can

401
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: put me in a different outfit, you can comb my

402
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: hair differently, you can give me a different name. But motherfucker,

403
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: I sound like this. Oh that's amazing. You make Steve

404
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: Carrell even more amazing to me. Right well, he is.

405
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: But your career, it seems to me, which is You've

406
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: discussed this a little bit. It revolves around your commitment

407
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: to representing truth accurately? Do you think everything that has

408
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: come after reverts back to Kreskin? Like, do you think

409
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: your entire career or is really built because of that

410
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: as a young age and you wanting to do something different,

411
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: be defined differently? Well, you know in in Moby Dick,

412
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: which all I ever mentioned is Moby Dick and Bob Dylan.

413
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: In Moby Dick Um, it is said that Starbucks, arguably

414
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: the hero character, doesn't see cause and effect and Ahab

415
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: sees everything as cause and effect. We live in a

416
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: world that we can't understand, where cause and effect are

417
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: the most important thing, and a little bit beyond our grasp.

418
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: Even at a Newtonian level, never minded particle physics level,

419
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: we can never get you know, one pool ball hitting

420
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: another pool ball by the time you get to the

421
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: fourth or fifth hit. You have to know every particle

422
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: in the universe to be able to predict what happens next.

423
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Speaker 1: So if I want to even pretend to be even

424
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: slightly thinking about the truth, I have to say no

425
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: to that. The story that I've created about my life,

426
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: which is definitely not true because Kreskin did not cause

427
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: any of this, but the story I do feel that

428
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: there is a an obsession with what's real and what's

429
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: not that most people go through in their teen years

430
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: that I did now grow. I really really care, and

431
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: it is an impossible task because truth is relative. We

432
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: have not got the experiential skills to really get to

433
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: the kind of truth that I emotionally want. So what

434
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: I I'm doing is impossible. And to even claim that

435
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: I'm trying it is pretentious and presumptuous. But emotionally the

436
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: answer is yes, but it's only emotionally, not in any

437
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: sort of reality. Um, you went, you mentioned this briefly.

438
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: You went to Wringling Brothers and Barnman Bailey Greatest show

439
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: on Earth. Clown College. Thank you? Yes? Are you a graduate?

440
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: Yes you have? Do you have a degree? I have

441
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: a I have a bachelor's in buffoonery. Okay. Clown College

442
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: was a two things. Was a publicity vehicle because they

443
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: got a Sunday magazine story in the New York Times

444
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: every year and also something in Praying magazine every year,

445
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: and uh, that was worth the amount of money that

446
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: they put into it. They also really did train clowns,

447
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: and we're able to get people at a very low

448
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: wage that we're very, very skilled, and because of all

449
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: the hype about it, they got really good people, and

450
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: they got them really cheap, and they got a lot

451
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: of press out of it. It was a good deal

452
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: for everyone. Having said that, I'm afraid that I sound

453
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: a little bit cynical about their motives that made it

454
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: a business decision, But their motives are also pure. They

455
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: wanted to get funny people together and do really funny things.

456
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: For me, it was incredibly important because I was the

457
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: youngest there. I was seventeen. I had just gotten out

458
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: of high school that did not go well, and it

459
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: was the first time, well I I'm gonna I'm gonna

460
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: say this without without any bullshit modesty. So the first

461
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: time I was around in person people who were funnier

462
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: than me, and they were a lot funnier than me,

463
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: but more important than that, because that's just competition, bullshit,

464
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: who cares? More important than that. It was the first

465
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: time I could talk to people who spoke seriously about comedy.

466
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: Now you had that experience probably at nine years old.

467
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: I never experienced until I was seventeen. I would read

468
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: National Lampoon, I would play the Lenny Bruce records, and

469
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 1: I would say to my friends, isn't it really interesting

470
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: how they're doing? And they would go, ha ha, it's

471
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: really funny. What the funk you're talking about? And uh,

472
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: that's what you're supposed to do, by the way, if

473
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: you're not, if that's not your life, right, you know,

474
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: But to me it was, you know, Lenny bruce Is

475
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: is inventing this whole form, and look at how this

476
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: puts together, and how this goes from the joke to

477
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: his divorce to his trial. Look how all that's happening.

478
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: And look at National Lampoon. How there Michael o'donni he

479
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: was game, and they just shut up, you know, shut up,

480
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: they answered to me. And I got to Clown College,

481
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: and as silly as that name is in everything, I

482
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 1: was with thirty five people who had spent longer than me,

483
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: every one of them more seriously than me and better

484
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: than me, thinking about those ideas and the fact that

485
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 1: they were thinking and I know you understand that the

486
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,240
Speaker 1: fact that we're thinking about how to do a pants

487
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: drop right does not change the seriousness that's right, you know. Uh.

488
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: They were trying to find where that part of our

489
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: heart that laughs lives and it doesn't matter whether you're

490
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: using a Seltzer bottle or whether you're Lenny Bruce. There

491
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: is there's something about thinking about that that really matters.

492
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: And those two and a half months where I, you know,

493
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: did trapeze, learned to walk a wire, you know, did

494
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: double backflips on the trampoline. Uh, they only let me

495
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 1: in because I was a good juggler, right. They didn't

496
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: let me in as I was funny. They let me

497
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: in and I was And I know this for a

498
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: fact because talking to the administration later, I was the

499
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: last person it picked and only in because someone else

500
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: got sick. I was the alternative. So I least least

501
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: deserve to be there, and therefore it might have been

502
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: the best experience for me. Right, you know, if you're

503
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 1: the worst one, You know, if you're in a band

504
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: and you're the best guy in the band, quit, If

505
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: you're in an improv group and you're the funniest, quit

506
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: you want to be the worst? That's right. I was

507
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: gonna say, I don't know if you know this about me,

508
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: but I'm sure that you do not. I don't talk

509
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: about it very often. Now, this is not circus. Are

510
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 1: you familiar with Jacques Lacock. Sure, of course, yes, So

511
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: I did not go clown college in a way, but

512
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: I studied and did men any many shows in the

513
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: theater with with his direct descendants, and and felt like

514
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: in a way, yes, Tatra de la June lon Uh

515
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: was French and American company performing in Minneapolis. I did

516
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: a lot of shows with them. And there's something you

517
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: just said that I haven't thought about in a long

518
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: long time, which is like analyzing the pants drop, Like

519
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: at what exactly how do we do this thing now?

520
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: It's not exactly the same. It was not circus clowning,

521
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: but clowning in another way. And in fact, this podcast

522
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: that you're on right now is called off the Beat

523
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: because of the director that I worked with there, who

524
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: taught me that comedy and I'm translating that to being

525
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: life happens off the beat, that true comedy happens in

526
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 1: unexpected moments, not in the moments that we think that

527
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: it should. Yeah, has to be and uh, learning to

528
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: internalize that rhythm is really important. You know, by all association,

529
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: I mean people at the cheesy clown college that I

530
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: went to and the people at the classy clown college

531
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: you were involved in did mate Oka. Of course they

532
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 1: were the same. They were the same species. Not long

533
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: after you left, you met Teller. I met Telling before

534
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: I went to Clown College. Met you met when I

535
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 1: was I was in high school. He was teaching high school.

536
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: We met different high which, incidentally, if I hadn't convinced

537
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 1: and yes, I convinced he did not want to and

538
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:51,760
Speaker 1: I not convinced Teller to take a sabbatical from teaching

539
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: in Lawrence High School in New Jersey, if I had

540
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 1: not convinced him to do that. The very next year,

541
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: the first student enrolled in his class was John Stewart,

542
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: who was signed up to take Mr Teller's Latin and

543
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 1: Greek classics class. I was very excited about it. As

544
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: far as I know, the only person ever excited about

545
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: taking a class was John Stewart. And John Stewart has

546
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 1: said many times that his only goal in show business

547
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: is to be the more famous person from Lawrence High

548
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: than the teacher who abandoned him from the class he

549
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: wanted to take. Why does your working relationship? Why does

550
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: it work so well? I mean, here, here's the question.

551
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: You've only been asked nine hundred thousand times, but it's

552
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. So I think it's because of an

553
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 1: absence of love. Um. Respect is more powerful working relationship

554
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: than love. Many of your greatest teams fell in love, Letting,

555
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 1: the McCartney were undoubtedly in love, Martin and Lewis whoa,

556
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: I mean embarrassingly in love, UM, Gilbert and Sullivan for

557
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: the first year, probably in love. Jagger and Richards. We

558
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 1: now I found out actually physically in love certain people.

559
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: You walk into a room with them. We don't know why,

560
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 1: and maybe the distance their eyes are apart. It may

561
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: be pheromones. But you walk into a room and you

562
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: have a cuddly feeling with them, You want to be

563
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: close with them, you want to move with them. And

564
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 1: I'm calling it sexual and it is, but it doesn't

565
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 1: mean sex, partners. It just means affection, warmth, whatever. And

566
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: there are other people, and I have friends of both

567
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 1: kinds that your relationship would be exactly as rich if

568
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: it were only over the internet. It's completely intellectual and

569
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 1: isn't tied to that. When I met Teller, there was

570
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: a complete and utter lack of cuddly feeling. We weren't

571
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: emotionally drawn to each other. We did not want to

572
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: be in the same room together. We did not want

573
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: to be close. But I had never met anyone more

574
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: intellectually stimulating. And we both believed very early on that

575
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 1: we did better stuff together that we did separately. Now

576
00:41:55,440 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: what happens is if you're in love, the first moment

577
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: you're not in love is really traumatic. The first moment

578
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: you have a horrible disagreement that gets personal, The first

579
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: moment someone else enters your world. You know, when you

580
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: fall into love with somebody that maybe is more sexual,

581
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: those things crumbled. Tell her and I when we did

582
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: not get along, when we did not particularly like each other,

583
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 1: that was not consequential, That meant nothing. You're working at

584
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: a seven eleven, the guy who cleans the slurping machine

585
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: pissed off? Who cares? I got gum to sell, you know,

586
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: So tell her and I. Over forty seven years, he's

587
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: my closest friend. I spent all day yesterday with him

588
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: in the hospital. He gets out today. He had bypass

589
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: surgery and he's recovering well. And I cried my eyes out.

590
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: And when my children were born, the first person to

591
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: hold them other than my wife and I was tell

592
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 1: her when our parents died the first people we talked to.

593
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 1: My children insist that Teller is my BFF. We are

594
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: very very close. It is an intellectual bond that that

595
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: spread to emotional with a great deal of time to

596
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: have that happen. And still people are a little shocked

597
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: when they work with us at how formal we are.

598
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: We work fairly formally and fairly meanly, but it's formal.

599
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: We arrive on time, we are polite, we we we

600
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: come there to work. And people have been amazed that

601
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 1: Teller and I have heart wrenching disagreements and the time

602
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: comes to work and we go right to work. And

603
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: that's all because there's no one I respect more than Teller,

604
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: and is a lot of people I love more than

605
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: tell her. And that's absolutely okay. We also don't socialize

606
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: very often. We even have mutual friends who come to

607
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: town and choose one of us. We're going to dinner

608
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,280
Speaker 1: with Penn Tonite. We don't usually go I mean maybe

609
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: three or four times a year. Me now, when he

610
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: was in the hospital, I spent a lot more time

611
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 1: with them socially, of course, but a normal year, maybe

612
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: four times a year we go out to have dinner,

613
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: the two of us four times a year, and we

614
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: worked together seven days a week. And the reason is

615
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,760
Speaker 1: we go we go out to eat. What you do today,

616
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: Teller saying, fucking thing you did, Penn, same what you

617
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: do twenty years ago, Same thing you did. What was

618
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: it like to be with Letterman? Same as it was

619
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: when I was with Letterman? What was it like to

620
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: do Saturnite live? Exactly like it was for you? So interesting, right?

621
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: I never thought about it like like that. I mean,

622
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: you hear what you know? The stereotypical you know, if

623
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: you if you're working with your spouse and you don't

624
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: have any time away, then you don't have time to

625
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: share what else is going on in your life with

626
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: other people. And yeah, I mean the ability to tell

627
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: stories and to share with someone who was there and

628
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,919
Speaker 1: let those stories, which is really important, really important, let

629
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: those stories drift because the story that you tell yourself

630
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 1: about your life is who you are, and that story

631
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: has to drift and you can't have someone they're busting you.

632
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 1: I keep a journal like a teenage girl, which is

633
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 1: what I am. A teenage girl essentially. I keep a

634
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: journal every day so all it can occasionally be backstage

635
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: in our green room, which we call the monkey room

636
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: and tell they we'll have friends backstage, And for some reason,

637
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 1: I haven't rushed home, like I want to eat something.

638
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: So I sit in the room and I'll hear tell

639
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: her telling a story to his friends that I was

640
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 1: there for, and he'll be telling it, and I will

641
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: sit there thinking this is wrong in every detail and

642
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: he's not lying. And then I'll remember that story myself

643
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: and I'll run it. And occasionally, not often, but like

644
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: two or three times, I've gone back and been able

645
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: to get the coordinates to be able to find that

646
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: in my journal and read what I wrote that the

647
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: FBI would accept in court, you know, contemporaneous notes, and

648
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: it does not overlap with the story either of us

649
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: had in any way. What I find interesting is I've

650
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 1: heard tell her and I tell the same story, and

651
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: tell her gives me the punch line, and I give

652
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 1: tell her the punch line, which is really interesting. You know,

653
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: we reverse, we reverse who gets who was the clever

654
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,919
Speaker 1: one and who did the setup, because we know you'll

655
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: get a bigger laugh when you aren't self aggrandizing, get

656
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 1: a bigger laugh setting up. If you're telling a story

657
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: of something someone said on the step that was hysterical.

658
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,879
Speaker 1: You've learned you'll get a bigger laugh if you give

659
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: that line to someone else, and you do it because

660
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: you want the laugh more than you want the credit. Right.

661
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: You guys have been together now in residency at the

662
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: Rio in Vegas twenty one years. Uh longest running headliners

663
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: to ever continuously play the same hotel in Vegas. Is

664
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: this the life you ever imagined for yourself? You know?

665
00:47:53,360 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: You know? No, never possibly imagined, never within my goal set. Never,

666
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: you know. Um. Paul McCartney has said in interviews that

667
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: the Beatles should have been more successful. Right. He said

668
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: that Elvis Presley wanted to be more popular. If you

669
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: know Howard Stern when he was the king of all media,

670
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,439
Speaker 1: he wanted more. If you've met Madonna, she wanted more.

671
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: If you've read biographies of Houdini, being the most successful

672
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,479
Speaker 1: person in the United States of America was not enough

673
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: for Harry Houdini. I've never felt that my goal was

674
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: to maybe make a middle class living in something like

675
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: the arts show business. My view of show business was

676
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: very similar to my father's. I would have been very

677
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 1: happy being a you know, segment producer on a local

678
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: talk show setting that up, I would have been really

679
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: happy to be a local DJ who said a funny

680
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,439
Speaker 1: thing or two between songs tell her and I. Our

681
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: goal was maybe two hundred seat theaters, and if not,

682
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: we were thrilled with cruise ships, corporate shows, trade shows.

683
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: Our heroes were people who had lived their whole life

684
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: like that. Some of the funniest, most skilled people I know,

685
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: Johnny Thompson, Billie McComb, all these people no one has

686
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: heard of, and they worked their entire life in show

687
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:44,839
Speaker 1: business and made people laugh their nutsacks off. They amazed them,

688
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: they thrilled them, and they worked corporate shows and get

689
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: paid really well, you know for a guy, you know,

690
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 1: not really well for Robin Williams, you know, but really

691
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 1: well for a guy. And they were the ones we

692
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:04,720
Speaker 1: were aspiring too. And we did the off Broadway show

693
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 1: as kind of like, well, we'll see how it goes,

694
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: but we had fair gigs booked for after it, right,

695
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: we were going right back to being carny trash. We

696
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 1: were very happy, and it was so uncomfortable when people

697
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: would interview me will We're playing on Broadway and it

698
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: was our first run on Broadway. People said, is this

699
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 1: a dream? Come true? Have you finally lived? And I'd say, no,

700
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 1: it never crossed my mind to be on Broadway. That

701
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,959
Speaker 1: was sincere when I was off Broadway. It didn't cross

702
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: my mind to be on Broadway. I just didn't think

703
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: that was the kind of thing I did. Also, they said,

704
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: what does it feel like, after struggling for all these

705
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: years to finally have a successful show? And I would say, well,

706
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: I don't mean disrespect, but within six months of Taylor

707
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 1: and I working together, we were making as much money

708
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: as our dads, and we're doing exactly what we wanted,

709
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 1: and we were really proud of the show. So I

710
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: considered us wicked successful. You've never even heard of us,

711
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 1: you know. Neil Simon said, the big difference is from

712
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: zero dollars a week to two dollars a week doing

713
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: what you want, and after that, adding zeros doesn't mean anything.

714
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: It does to Howard Stern, it does to Houdini, it

715
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: does to Madonna, does to Paul McCartney, it does not

716
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: to me. And I remember reading the Silverman biography of Houdini,

717
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: and I had always identified with Houdini as a child.

718
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: And this is a wonderfully written book, very very detailed,

719
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 1: then later ratso that the Sloman book came out, which

720
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: is also wonderful. And I always felt like I was

721
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: kind of a Houdini guy because he busted psychics and

722
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: he cared very much about the truth and he was

723
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 1: a magician. And I read this book and went wow,

724
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: I could not be further from Houdini because I am satisfying,

725
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: I'm content, and that he is a star. He was

726
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,839
Speaker 1: a star. I will never be a star because I

727
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: don't feel unfulfilled the fact that nobody in China has

728
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 1: heard of me does not bother me at all. It

729
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 1: ate at Elvis. Do you know that Elvis was bothered

730
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: by that that people in China didn't know who he was.

731
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: That bugged him. As far as I'm concerned, people in

732
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: China could keep elected the same guy over and over again.

733
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: At as long as they don't go nuclear, I'm happy

734
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 1: with them not knowing who Pett is real. Oh my gosh,

735
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 1: you're so interesting. I truly I could talk to you

736
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,720
Speaker 1: all day. I I want to hit a couple of things.

737
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: I'm now going to reduce your hit television show Bullshit

738
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: that ran seven eight years in one sentence, what was

739
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 1: your favorite thing that you debunked on bullshit. Uh, That's

740
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: the most emotional was talking to the dead, because I

741
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: did it right after my mom died, and I had

742
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 1: intellectually knew that that was morally wrong, but I never

743
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: felt it emotionally. I was parenting what Houdini was saying

744
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 1: after his mother died, but I never felt it. And

745
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: when I felt as an atheist that all I had

746
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 1: of my mom was the memory of everything she said

747
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,760
Speaker 1: to me and everything we've done, and that there were people,

748
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 1: because of a lack of talent and a quest for power,

749
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 1: we're willing to take people memories of their loved ones

750
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,879
Speaker 1: and distort them. Let me tell you, I don't give

751
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: a funk about the money. I don't even give a

752
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: funk about the truth. The fact that people have someone

753
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 1: they love and someone comes in and says, this is

754
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 1: what your loved one is thinking or feeling, and that

755
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 1: distorts even by that much who that person was to them.

756
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: Fuck you in the neck. That was the one emotionally,

757
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: The one intellectually that I had a fight for was

758
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 1: when we did the anti anti vax show, which people

759
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: say to me, Wow, how did you guys do that

760
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,399
Speaker 1: so many years before the anti vaxers, and I say,

761
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: Jenny McCarthy was killing people well before, well before the

762
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: santos um. But I had a I had a fight

763
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: for that because they said it's not interesting, it's not sexy.

764
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: And I said, I will promise Shoe, I will find

765
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: a woman with larger breaths than Jenny McCarthy and we

766
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 1: will have her topless, reading teleprompter with actual facts on vaccines,

767
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 1: and Bryant I delivered. Now I had to make a deal.

768
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: They said if we wanted to do the anti anti

769
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: vac show, that we had to do a show on cheerleading.

770
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 1: And I said, give me a fucking break. I got

771
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,359
Speaker 1: to bullshit on cheerleading, and they said, yeah, we think

772
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: it's an interesting subject and we can also get a

773
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:40,800
Speaker 1: lot of sexy stuff in there. And I went for me.

774
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: And then the cheerleading show ended up being one of

775
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 1: our better shows because it was fascinating and dealt with

776
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 1: sexism at the dangers, the dangers of cheerleading and so

777
00:55:53,880 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: once again proving I'm wrong about everything. Uh, your your

778
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 1: newest show that's only been been running eleven twelve years,

779
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: Penn and Teller fool Us Uh just premiered October, you

780
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 1: can check out the new season of fool Us. This

781
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:22,439
Speaker 1: this is is a take on on what your core

782
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:26,840
Speaker 1: values are, right, uh kind of you know. Uh, I

783
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 1: will tell you though. Uh. Everybody puts the emphasis on magic,

784
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 1: as they should. It's what we do to sell it.

785
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:35,800
Speaker 1: But one of the things that Teller and I wanted

786
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: to do, and I'm so gratified that people have noticed this,

787
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 1: is we wanted to treat performers on a talent show

788
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: in the broad sense, uh, with kindness, because I believe

789
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: anyone who opens up their heart in the arts at

790
00:56:56,200 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: all deserves kindness. And some of the other shows, although

791
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: they have changed over the years, they've mellowed a lot.

792
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 1: The other shows where we started full Us. Some of

793
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 1: the other shows were um celebrating cruelty in a way

794
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: that Taylor and I found unwatchable. And also it's very strange.

795
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: But fool Us is in a certain way objective, right.

796
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 1: It's not like, oh, you're gonna make it in show

797
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 1: business because of that wonderful smile, or oh you have

798
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: a sense of timing. It's I don't know how you

799
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: did that boom. I don't know. Maybe everyone else, which

800
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: it seems on the Internet. Everyone else does, but we

801
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: didn't at that time, and that's kind of objective. And

802
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: I really liked that part of it. I liked the

803
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: part of it that the people we liked the most

804
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 1: and who did the best warming didn't necessarily fool us,

805
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 1: and the people who fooled us weren't necessarily best. I

806
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: really enjoyed that. And also I like the fact that

807
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: we weren't putting our thumb on the scale of show business.

808
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 1: Because I've often said about, you know, American Idol until

809
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 1: you can prove to me that tiny Tim sun Raw,

810
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan, and David Allen co win, I don't want

811
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 1: to watch it unless you can prove to me that

812
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:39,439
Speaker 1: the absolute nuts that America has embraced they're gonna win

813
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: this show. I don't want someone that's singing perfectly on

814
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 1: pitch and whose mother is dying of cancer. I want

815
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 1: someone that opens up their chest, shows me their heart,

816
00:58:51,560 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 1: and says so there. I gotta ask you about Black Mirror.

817
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: The Black Museum was adapted from a story idea of yours.

818
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 1: How did you get involved with that? I I was

819
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 1: touring with an avant garde band called The Residents out

820
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: of San Francisco. I was touring their opera as the

821
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: narrator and in Barcelona, Spain, I got wicked sick and

822
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 1: taken to a Barcelona hospital, which we're not the best

823
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 1: hospitals in the world, where nobody knew where where I

824
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: was because I had been taking an ambulance when no

825
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 1: one from the crew was watching right. I spoke at

826
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 1: the time, no Spanish, The doctors spoke no English. I

827
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: had a fever that I only saw in centigrade, but

828
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 1: was wicked high. I was hallucinating out of my mind

829
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 1: and all I thought about was if one of these

830
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: doctors could just feel the pain without me having to talk,

831
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 1: they could diagnose it and fix me. M in a

832
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 1: fever dream, an actual fever dream. I imagined the whole

833
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 1: story of the Pain Addict, which is my original short

834
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 1: story that I published, and I I was taken out

835
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: of that hospital by one of the band members, who

836
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 1: was a tough American who just said, get your fucking

837
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 1: hands off them. We're Americans, get your fucking hands off them,

838
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 1: come on, pat and carried me out of the hospital

839
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 1: and left me in the hotel room in Barcelona for

840
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: three days with a dancer who has left to take

841
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 1: care of me until I got better and joined rejoined

842
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 1: the troop. Then, many many years later, I got to

843
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 1: meet Charlie through a mutual friend in England. We've been

844
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 1: out for lunch and we are having a wonderful time.

845
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 1: And I said to him, you know, I don't want

846
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 1: to turn this into a business meeting. I'm sure everybody

847
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: pitches you, said, Bob, I have been out of ideas

848
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 1: for two years. Tell me anything. And I told him

849
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 1: the story idea and he went, jeez, that that'd be

850
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 1: really good. And then he said to me, listen, let

851
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 1: me tell you about me as a collaborator. I don't

852
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: answer the phone. I don't answer text I don't answer emails.

853
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 1: I will tell you we're doing something, then you will

854
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:54,919
Speaker 1: hear nothing about it for three months that I'll call

855
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 1: you and talk for two hours. I will leave you

856
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 1: out of the process. I'll throw things on your shoulders.

857
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: I'm the worst person to work with in the world,

858
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 1: but I'd like to do this. I said, good. I

859
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 1: called him stead, we're gonna work on this nothing. Six

860
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 1: weeks later he called me, talked for three hours and said,

861
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: I'll send you a script and you can make notes

862
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 1: on it. I said, great, I have some other notes

863
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 1: on stuff we've been talking about. This will be great.

864
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 1: I'll send you my notes. Nothing. Nothing. Uh. Then he

865
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: sent me the script. Eight months later, he sent me

866
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: the script. I called him up. He answered and said,

867
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 1: we're shooting next week. I said, I have some thoughts.

868
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: He said, I'm sure you do. We're shooting next week.

869
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: I said, you don't. I really wanted to audition for

870
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: one of the roles. He said, I'm sure you did.

871
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 1: It's cast. I said, what what is the credit? And

872
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 1: they said, you'll be happy. He then gave me a

873
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 1: fabulous credit and overpaid me. And my agent said we're

874
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 1: gonna call him and negotiate the fee. We're sure we

875
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 1: can get him up from here. And I said, listen,

876
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 1: for one time in show business someone has paid me

877
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 1: more than fairly. I think we should reward this behavior

878
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 1: and say thank you. Yes. And it came out and

879
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 1: people gave me all this credit and said, oh, was

880
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: your original story? And I said, yes, but a lot

881
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 1: of what makes it good was not done by me.

882
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: But thank you. That's amazing. He's I will now say

883
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 1: he's the best person to work with you could ever

884
01:03:55,920 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: work with. Makes you work not at all, gives you more,

885
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 1: and it pays you well, goes away and no no

886
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 1: email or call saying that kid out okay or I

887
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 1: did a good job, didn't I nothing. We went out

888
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 1: to dinner afterwards when I was in Britain and he said, yeah,

889
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 1: that went well, and that was the entire about we

890
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: talked about it. Oh my gosh, Uh you'r how much

891
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 1: of your shows now is written? Are you still? Are

892
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 1: you still making it up as you go along? Obviously

893
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 1: there's a structure, and I'm I'm and teller. We're both

894
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: the biggest tight asses you've ever met. We do stuff

895
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:45,960
Speaker 1: that looks really dangerous and really isn't and we're proud

896
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 1: of that. And we do stuff magic tricks that are really,

897
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 1: really really hard. That means that although there's a loosened

898
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 1: provisation to begin with, and there are moments that I

899
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:07,640
Speaker 1: can improvise. Uh, if you come see our show two

900
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 1: nights in a row, I scratched my nose at the

901
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 1: exact same place, I clear my throat at the same place.

902
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 1: And if I change a line, which I sometimes do

903
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 1: because the audience or what's going on, there are eight

904
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 1: people who go on high alert on headsets and say

905
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 1: pen is off book. Everybody ready, and they will they

906
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 1: will follow me. But I know fabulous improvisers, and it

907
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 1: would be disrespectful of me to say that I do

908
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:51,680
Speaker 1: any improvisation whatsoever. You're you have a new book random

909
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 1: just released available now. It's about a man who begins

910
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: making life choices based on the role of his lucky dice.

911
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:05,440
Speaker 1: What what pushed you to write this story? Where did

912
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 1: this come from? Uh? Well, once again, I don't get

913
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: much credit for it. It's it's an unpleasant story. Thirty

914
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:17,880
Speaker 1: years ago, I was doing a television show in England

915
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 1: and I'm going to change details of this story to

916
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 1: make the story better, but more important, to protect privacy.

917
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 1: You'll understand as I go on. And there was a

918
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 1: woman working with us on the show in a rather

919
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 1: high position, and she called me into her office one

920
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:37,720
Speaker 1: day while we're doing the show, say can I talk

921
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 1: to you? Closed the door and I was like, hey now,

922
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 1: but no, she said, I feel an affinity with you

923
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:45,600
Speaker 1: and I want to talk to you about something. So

924
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 1: if you read a book called The Dice Man, and

925
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 1: I said no, she said, well it's available. You've got

926
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 1: two days off read it and I went, okay, I'm

927
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,680
Speaker 1: giving homework with a show with my name in it. Okay.

928
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:00,280
Speaker 1: So I picked up the book and I read it

929
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 1: and came back and she said, would you think And

930
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:07,440
Speaker 1: I said, well, you know, I don't like satire and

931
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:11,720
Speaker 1: I don't like parody, and this is both. It's making

932
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 1: fun of the Skee movement Warner Airhart, and I don't

933
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 1: care about making fun of that. I didn't really like

934
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 1: it much. But the idea that we have a society

935
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: of mind, to use Marvin Minsky's phrase, and m I

936
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 1: t have a society of mind that makes decisions based

937
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 1: on a voting within our head, and that the second, third, fourth, fifth, six,

938
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 1: seventh choices are sincerely part of us, but they never

939
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 1: get expressed fascinates me. And the idea of throwing a

940
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 1: monkey wrench into there and making the loser parts be

941
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 1: expressed fascinates me. Also, the idea of making a decision

942
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 1: instantly is something I am so envious of. I try

943
01:07:57,960 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 1: to do it in my life, to make a decision

944
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 1: and act on it and stick to it, but it's

945
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 1: very difficult, all the doubting voices. And she said, yeah, yeah,

946
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:10,520
Speaker 1: I want to tell you a story. She said, a

947
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 1: few months ago, I was very close to my brother.

948
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 1: I went to his apartment and I found that he

949
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 1: killed himself. He'd hanged himself. And she said, I did

950
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 1: what I had to do to get the funeral done.

951
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:25,920
Speaker 1: Then I shut down completely. She said, I was just

952
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 1: sitting on the couch. Said, I don't even know for

953
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:31,360
Speaker 1: how long. She said, I guess I fed myself, but

954
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 1: no talking to friends, nothing. I completely shut down. And

955
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:38,799
Speaker 1: I had read this silly book a few weeks before,

956
01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:42,920
Speaker 1: and I said I've got to act. And she said

957
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:46,800
Speaker 1: I had dice at my my apartment, and she said,

958
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 1: I made a bell curve, but seven the most likely.

959
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:52,960
Speaker 1: So the things I put on that were very very simple,

960
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:58,720
Speaker 1: have a sandwich, take a shower, call a friend. Because

961
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:01,639
Speaker 1: I threw the dice, and the second those dice hit,

962
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:06,519
Speaker 1: I had a religious feeling and I acted instantly and

963
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:09,680
Speaker 1: I did it and it made all my decisions that way.

964
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:15,080
Speaker 1: And I said, wow, how long? How long did you

965
01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 1: do that? And she opened a briefcase because thirty years ago,

966
01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:22,519
Speaker 1: when people didn't have backpacks, hoping to briefcase, and she

967
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,760
Speaker 1: showed me two dice in her briefcase rather ornate, and

968
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:31,920
Speaker 1: I went, whoa, You're still doing it and she said yeah,

969
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:33,719
Speaker 1: and I want you know it's it's a weird thing.

970
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,760
Speaker 1: But met the producers thought you would do our show

971
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 1: because you were too good and our show was just

972
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 1: starting out. And when you did, everybody was surprised, and

973
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:46,280
Speaker 1: she said, I rolled the night. I said, so, so

974
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 1: you decided to do our show? She said it wasn't.

975
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 1: It wasn't my first choice. I said, oh, you're in

976
01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:55,599
Speaker 1: a pretty powerful position. Do you make choices on our

977
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:58,639
Speaker 1: show based on the dice? She said, only, but I'm

978
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 1: not sure. I so there there's random stuff in our

979
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:07,040
Speaker 1: show brought in by you. She said yes. And needless

980
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 1: to say, that story stuck with me. And when I

981
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:14,720
Speaker 1: was out talking with my friends, I tell them about

982
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:17,800
Speaker 1: this woman I met, and they were all fascinated. And

983
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:20,799
Speaker 1: I found out later on that bush now what's his name, Bushnell,

984
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 1: who's started uh Comma our computers and Chuck E Cheese

985
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:29,719
Speaker 1: lives by dice. I didn't know that obviously, the question

986
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:31,960
Speaker 1: of why the hell did someone start Chuck E Cheese

987
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:35,720
Speaker 1: I've now answered for you. I expect a written thank

988
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 1: you from you for that. Yeah, there's I have so

989
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:42,680
Speaker 1: many questions, but yes, okay, go ahead, and it's all

990
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:46,840
Speaker 1: answered by dice. Um that other people do this, and

991
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:50,000
Speaker 1: that it's on the web. There's people that live dice life,

992
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:53,280
Speaker 1: as it's sometimes called. And two of my friends, during

993
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 1: traumatic moments of their life, started doing it, and I

994
01:10:57,439 --> 01:10:59,200
Speaker 1: said to them, I don't think you should. I think

995
01:10:59,240 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 1: it's dangerous, but tell me all about it. And then,

996
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:10,040
Speaker 1: and this is the easy part for anyone to understand. Um,

997
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:12,679
Speaker 1: I thought it should be a TV show. So I

998
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:16,719
Speaker 1: pitched it, and Showtime bought it and assigned the show runner,

999
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:19,360
Speaker 1: and then it fell apart because the show business. Then

1000
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:23,280
Speaker 1: someone else bought it, and then the lockdown came and

1001
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:26,840
Speaker 1: uh avor Trump said everybody should learn the language and

1002
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:29,200
Speaker 1: write a book. So I did, because I do anything

1003
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 1: she tells me too. I just figured, you know, I'm

1004
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:36,640
Speaker 1: so sick of going to meetings and talking about this.

1005
01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:39,880
Speaker 1: I can just sit on my keyboard, because God knows,

1006
01:11:39,920 --> 01:11:42,439
Speaker 1: I spent enough time with my fucking family during this lockdown.

1007
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:45,600
Speaker 1: I said, a my keyboard, and I can type, and

1008
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:47,840
Speaker 1: I can write it as a book, and I don't

1009
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 1: have to get anybody else on board. So I did

1010
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:57,000
Speaker 1: that and now of course someone's optioning it, making it

1011
01:11:57,040 --> 01:11:59,639
Speaker 1: do a TV show. They read the book and thought

1012
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:01,880
Speaker 1: this will be a good idea for a TV show,

1013
01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 1: and I went, you know something, that's why you're a producer.

1014
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 1: Oh that's amazing. But that doesn't By the way, you

1015
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 1: know this, but your listeners may not. It will not

1016
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:17,519
Speaker 1: get on the air. It will not happen. I'm just

1017
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:21,479
Speaker 1: telling you it might. Actually this one, this one might.

1018
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:25,760
Speaker 1: Most of them won't. Pen Thank you so much for

1019
01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 1: talking to me. I am I will promise you this,

1020
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:33,840
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying this because it can happen. Unfortunately,

1021
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:37,439
Speaker 1: I am on a plane to Vegas tonight. I would

1022
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:40,000
Speaker 1: come and see your show if it was happening tonight.

1023
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:42,760
Speaker 1: But here's my pledge to you. The next time, when

1024
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:44,439
Speaker 1: you guys are back up and running and I'm in

1025
01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 1: Vegas and I'm there quite a bit, I will I

1026
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:50,639
Speaker 1: will come and say hello to you at your show. Oh.

1027
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:53,200
Speaker 1: I would love that so much. We'll we'll go backstage

1028
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 1: and make some jokes. I love that, and maybe maybe

1029
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:01,760
Speaker 1: we can even eat if ready to go someplace that's

1030
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:04,680
Speaker 1: vegan and watch me eat dirt if you're willing to

1031
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:10,040
Speaker 1: do that, and that sounds like a because you know vegan,

1032
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:12,400
Speaker 1: no one wants to eat with the vegan. But if

1033
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:14,840
Speaker 1: you're willing to accommodate that, I will go out and

1034
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:18,240
Speaker 1: have somebody, you know. Okay, Uh, Pen, thank you so much.

1035
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:21,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pick up random and uh, I can't wait

1036
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:23,639
Speaker 1: to read Thank you so much. Coming on and we'll

1037
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:25,599
Speaker 1: find out what part you want and then tell the

1038
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:28,920
Speaker 1: producers and uh I will I'll say we got we

1039
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:32,400
Speaker 1: got Brian on board. Sorry. Last thing, the nail polish

1040
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:35,320
Speaker 1: on your left hand, it's from my mom. It was

1041
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:38,599
Speaker 1: originally it was originally a joke when I was like sixteen.

1042
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:41,960
Speaker 1: My mom said, if you're juggling, people are looking at

1043
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:44,800
Speaker 1: your hands, you have to make them nice. And I said,

1044
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:46,920
Speaker 1: you mean like this, mom, And I put on a

1045
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:50,760
Speaker 1: nail polish and she was old pen and then I

1046
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 1: did it to mock her. And then later on it

1047
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:57,320
Speaker 1: turned into a thing, um like Carol Burnette's ear. You know.

1048
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:00,080
Speaker 1: When I was on it, I would do that to

1049
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 1: say hi to my mom. Uh. And now Moxie, my daughter,

1050
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:08,479
Speaker 1: has been claiming it was done for her, and I

1051
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:11,280
Speaker 1: think my mother would approve of that. Lot. There you go,

1052
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:28,519
Speaker 1: Thank you so much pleasure, Penn. Thank you so much

1053
01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:30,960
Speaker 1: for talking to me, for taking so much of your

1054
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:38,160
Speaker 1: time today. Absolutely fascinating stuff. I loved every single minute

1055
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:40,600
Speaker 1: of it. Thank you for stopping by. Uh and I

1056
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Speaker 1: might just have to start making some of my own

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Speaker 1: decisions by the roll of a dice, as if I

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Speaker 1: don't already. H To everyone out there listening, thank you

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Speaker 1: once again for your support. Next week, we have got

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Speaker 1: a very exciting guest. Here's a hint. They are a

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Speaker 1: person who has done great things. Hoo hoo, hoo hoo.

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Speaker 1: We'll see you next week. Off the Beat is hosted

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Speaker 1: an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive

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Speaker 1: producer Langley. Our producers are Diego Tapia, Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris,

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Speaker 1: and Emily Carr. Our talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary,

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Speaker 1: and our intern is Sammy Cats. Our theme song Bubble

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Speaker 1: and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton,