Speaker 1: Joining me right now with senior NBA writer for ESPN.
Speaker 1: He's the host of the Brian Windhorse and the Hoop
Speaker 1: Collective podcast, but more importantly, he's a friend, one of
Speaker 1: the best of the business to one and only. Brian
Speaker 1: Windhorse joins me right now, Wendy, what's going on man?
Speaker 1: Have you recovered from the shock you felt Saturday night
Speaker 1: when this news came down that Luka Doncik was being
Speaker 1: traded to the Los Angeles Lakers for Anthony Davis.
Speaker 2: Nope, and I suspect, actually, I'll ask you, did you
Speaker 2: have any inkling this was coming at all?
Speaker 3: Zero Oka zero, I had no idea.
Speaker 2: Most of the time, in our business, when there's a
Speaker 2: significant deal, even if it's an insignificant deal, we have
Speaker 2: heard something about it. Some we can't always talk about
Speaker 2: it because you know, sometimes there's we gotta protect people.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we don't see all the sides of it and
Speaker 2: what have you. But normally we are at least a
Speaker 2: little bit aware in our business of certain things coming down.
Speaker 2: There was nothing on this, zero nothing. And then based
Speaker 2: on the way my phone lit up, Stephen a head
Speaker 2: coaches players, executives, agents, players, lawyers. The workout guys. You know,
Speaker 2: the reaction that I got from all the phases of
Speaker 2: the NBA is the shock I've never seen anything like it.
Speaker 2: I do think it's truly Not only is it the
Speaker 2: fact that it's a star for a star in the
Speaker 2: middle of the season, which is extraordinarily rare, but it
Speaker 2: was a star for a star where nobody in the
Speaker 2: whole NBA universe saw it coming, which makes it a
Speaker 2: one off that I've ever seen.
Speaker 1: It's obvious why the Los Angeles Lakers would do this
Speaker 1: deal despite the greatness of Anthony Davis. Luca is a
Speaker 1: once in a generation talent. He's box office he's got
Speaker 1: international you could say international appeal. That doesn't even begin
Speaker 1: to measure his cachet. And we know what the Laker
Speaker 1: brand is all about.
Speaker 3: This is what they do.
Speaker 1: They put it forth succession plans, you know, from the
Speaker 1: days of whether it's Willed, it's Kareem, it's Gasol, it's
Speaker 1: it's Shack, it's I mean, the list just goes on
Speaker 1: and on. Jerry West draft a swap for Kobe Bryant,
Speaker 1: it never stops. We understand the Lakers. What possible explanation
Speaker 1: do you have for the Dallas Mavericks electing to do this, Wendy.
Speaker 2: I think it's a basic one. They knew that coming
Speaker 2: on July first, I guess June thirtieth, they had to
Speaker 2: give him a five year, two hundred or three hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty million dollars deal or not they didn't give
Speaker 2: it to him. It was going to all hell was
Speaker 2: going to break loose if they did give it to him.
Speaker 2: They had to believe in him for the next five
Speaker 2: years at that price, and they didn't believe in it.
Speaker 2: And that decision is the core of all of this
Speaker 2: as far as I know now, maybe there'll be new
Speaker 2: information that'll come out. As far as I know, they
Speaker 2: basically decided they didn't want to give him that deal.
Speaker 2: And you know, there are there are certain situations where
Speaker 2: you would say, look, if you don't love a player,
Speaker 2: give him the contract at least, because then if you
Speaker 2: want to trade him, the player can't control where he goes.
Speaker 2: So a player has a year on his contract, which
Speaker 2: is what Luca would have, that he could control where
Speaker 2: he goes. So there, you know, one school of thought
Speaker 2: would be, all right, you don't love him, give him
Speaker 2: the contract and figure it out later. But they not
Speaker 2: only made that decision. They made the decision that they
Speaker 2: wanted to do something now and to deal with it
Speaker 2: this season. I suspect I don't know, but I suspect
Speaker 2: the reason is is because Kyrie Irving is in is
Speaker 2: you know, early to mid thirties, they don't want to
Speaker 2: do something that is going to detract from that. Not
Speaker 2: only that, Kyrie Irving could be a free agent this
Speaker 2: summer and they wouldn't want to have to do with
Speaker 2: both situations. So I do think the core of it
Speaker 2: was they didn't want to pay him the three fifty.
Speaker 2: They live in a world where they see Joel and
Speaker 2: on this humongous contract that now is becoming a potential
Speaker 2: problem for the seventy six ers. They kind of wanted
Speaker 2: to avoid that, and they said they wanted to compete
Speaker 2: for a championship this year. And they went out there
Speaker 2: and they looked and they said, the player that we
Speaker 2: can get, they can make us win, have a chance
Speaker 2: to win this year, is Anthony Davis. And those two realities.
Speaker 2: You can say that those are mistakes, that you can
Speaker 2: say that it's a flaw and judgment, but those two
Speaker 2: realities led us to that result. When that trade came
Speaker 2: down Saturday night.
Speaker 1: Thing that's challenging for me as I sit here and
Speaker 1: continue to cover this story along with yourself and Sean
Speaker 1: Sharania broke the story, so let's give him some love
Speaker 1: and props for that and what have you. The thing
Speaker 1: that really throws me aback is whether it's from other
Speaker 1: NBA executives, whether it's from Hollywood stars. The list goes
Speaker 1: on and on. They're like, wait a minute. The Knicks
Speaker 1: had to give away five first round picks to get
Speaker 1: Michael Bridges. They had to give away a couple of
Speaker 1: picks to get a call Anthony Towns. Assets had to
Speaker 1: be rendered to get a Rudy Gobert. You look at
Speaker 1: some of these deals that have transpired, How in the
Speaker 1: hell can anybody justify the Dallas Mavericks telling us we're
Speaker 1: gonna give away Luca.
Speaker 3: We know that Anthony Davis is all world.
Speaker 1: He's twenty five and twelve in his sleep, he's one
Speaker 1: of the best big men in the game. He's an
Speaker 1: elite defensive player, but still not the having nearly the
Speaker 1: box office appeal or anything like that. Nor is he
Speaker 1: the player that Luka Doncik is.
Speaker 3: How do you.
Speaker 1: Justify getting getting or giving away Luka Doncik and only
Speaker 1: getting one first round pick in return.
Speaker 3: How does Brian win to us explain that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the Kevin Durant trade is a fascinating one
Speaker 2: because if you compare Durant and Anthony Davis, you look
Speaker 2: at what the Nets got, and I think right now
Speaker 2: it's up to nine first round picks, some pick swaps,
Speaker 2: because they obviously got you know, Michal Bridges, they got
Speaker 2: draft picks, and mckaal Bridges and Cam Johnson. They already
Speaker 2: swapped out Bridges, and they might even swap Cam Johnson
Speaker 2: for another first round pick or two that could go
Speaker 2: to double digits in first round picks. And frankly, if
Speaker 2: the Mavericks wanted to, they probably could have called Brooklyn
Speaker 2: and offered them Luca, and I think they could have
Speaker 2: gotten the line's share of that stuff that's from that
Speaker 2: Durant trade. But I think the big difference here is
Speaker 2: the Mavericks wanted a player that they could win with. Now,
Speaker 2: all of those picks look incredibly impressive on paper, none
Speaker 2: of them are helping them win this season. So I
Speaker 2: can get my mind and as I've talked to executives
Speaker 2: in the league, stephen A. It's helped me get my
Speaker 2: mind around. Okay, they came to the decision that Luca
Speaker 2: isn't going to be their guy. Okay, I don't necessarily
Speaker 2: agree with it, but I can understand it. They came
Speaker 2: to a decision that Anthony Davis was going to be
Speaker 2: their guye Okay, you don't want to open up to
Speaker 2: the whole market. I think that's possibly a mistake, but
Speaker 2: that's your decision. I can kind of get it. The
Speaker 2: one thing I haven't reconciled is not getting everything from
Speaker 2: the Lakers for this player. And I understand where the
Speaker 2: Lakers were gonna go shame. Akers are saying, hey, listen,
Speaker 2: Luca is gonna be a free agent in a year
Speaker 2: and a half. We don't get the Supermax advantage Luca
Speaker 2: was gonna sign. I don't care what anybody says. Luca
Speaker 2: was gonna sign that three hundred and fifty million dollars deal.
Speaker 2: That was not a stressor for the Mavericks. The stressor
Speaker 2: wasn't whether Luca would sign up. The stresser was whether
Speaker 2: the MAVs wanted to pay it. The Lakers don't have
Speaker 2: that advantage. They don't get the Supermax. What Luca can
Speaker 2: now sign with with the Lakers is the same thing
Speaker 2: he can sign with anybody else. So the Lakers now
Speaker 2: have a year and a half, but they're going to
Speaker 2: try to get it done this summer. But they they're
Speaker 2: on the clock a little bit to get Luca, to
Speaker 2: get Luca a team around him that he feels good about.
Speaker 2: And you know, there's only so much you're gonna be
Speaker 2: able to sell him on playing with forty year old Lebron.
Speaker 2: He's got to worry about the five years. So I
Speaker 2: can see why the Lakers would say, listen, we got
Speaker 2: to hold back a draft, but we got to hold
Speaker 2: back Austin Reeves because we got to potentially still build
Speaker 2: this team around Luca in the next few months. I
Speaker 2: can understand the negotiating position. I can't understand why Dallas
Speaker 2: didn't get it anyway. And so that's the one thing
Speaker 2: I don't understand why they left those things on the table,
Speaker 2: and God bless Rob Polinka. You can say that this
Speaker 2: fell into their lap, and that's a fair assessment, but
Speaker 2: you can't say he didn't negotiate a good deal. Whatever
Speaker 2: he did to get the Mavericks to accept the terms
Speaker 2: he did a great job making that negotiation.
Speaker 1: With that being said, nobody has been I don't recall
Speaker 1: anybody being more critical of Luka Doncik than you over
Speaker 1: the years in terms of his conditioning, particularly doing the
Speaker 1: NBA players, especially in the finals. In a particular game
Speaker 1: against Boston, you went ballistic. You was as disgusted with
Speaker 1: him as I've ever seen you. When when we hear
Speaker 1: that the Dallas Mavericks were fed up with Luka Doncik,
Speaker 1: put into perspective through your years of covering this league,
Speaker 1: the kind of stuff that they saw, the kind of
Speaker 1: stuff they believe he was doing Brian Wenthors that made
Speaker 1: them say, we've had enough, get the hell up out
Speaker 1: of here, and we're gonna send you to LA And oh,
Speaker 1: by the way, we're gonna cost you nine figures, about
Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty five million dollars because you did
Speaker 1: no longer eligible for the Supermax. You got to accept
Speaker 1: the max deal from the Los Angeles Lakers, which is
Speaker 1: at about two nineteen to two twenty nine, as opposed
Speaker 1: to the three forty five that you were going to
Speaker 1: get from Dallas. What was he doing to make the
Speaker 1: Dallas Mavericks do this.
Speaker 2: And don't forget I know, you know, taxes, the taxes,
Speaker 2: the taxes between Texas and California, that's not even computed.
Speaker 2: The reason I was so viscerally upset after Game three
Speaker 2: the finals last year was because I had seen Luca.
Speaker 2: I wasn't about his conditioning, like you know, I don't
Speaker 2: know his I'm not an expert in conditioning, clearly, But
Speaker 2: what I was upset about was that he allowed his
Speaker 2: demeanor and his focus on the game to hurt his team.
Speaker 2: And I had seen him do this several times before
Speaker 2: in big games for his national team. I cover international basketball.
Speaker 2: I have seen him do this several times while playing
Speaker 2: for the Slovenian national team. He was he was ejected
Speaker 2: or disqualified from a game, a vital game, an elimination game,
Speaker 2: when he completely started to hurt his team by the
Speaker 2: way his demeanor was in that in that game. And
Speaker 2: so I was viscerally upset that he did it again
Speaker 2: on this highest stage. Because if you if you're down
Speaker 2: two to zero and you lose game three year eliminated.
Speaker 2: No one's ever come back from three to zero, and
Speaker 2: they weren't going to come back from three to zero.
Speaker 2: And the fact that he played so well with so
Speaker 2: much focus in game four only made it worse. And
Speaker 2: I was frustrated that the finals were going to be
Speaker 2: over stephen A because and I felt that he was
Speaker 2: the key to making the finals, a long greade finals,
Speaker 2: and instead he was the key to making the short finals.
Speaker 2: And that's why I was upset. And you know this
Speaker 2: better than anybody. When you say something about a player,
Speaker 2: when you are critical of a player or an organization,
Speaker 2: even if your your your founded and your facts and
Speaker 2: your opinion is right, you will often have people defend
Speaker 2: that that person or that team. You your phone blows
Speaker 2: up during commercial breaks on first take and for people
Speaker 2: will give you instantaneous defense. When that happened last year,
Speaker 2: and I said that about Luca, I was in Dallas,
Speaker 2: coming to the arena every day for days on end,
Speaker 2: and nobody from the Mavericks organization said anything to me,
Speaker 2: even if they thought I was right and what I
Speaker 2: was pointing out. Typically you're used to getting them to
Speaker 2: defend their guy, because that's there's sometimes their job and
Speaker 2: they're progative. Nobody said anything to me, And you know,
Speaker 2: when that happened, I made a note of it in
Speaker 2: my head. I was like, because I prepared myself. I
Speaker 2: came into the building going, Okay, here it comes, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna get a procession pr someone from the front office,
Speaker 2: some from the coaching staff. Nothing. And it's because I
Speaker 2: think that on a personal level, they had been very
Speaker 2: frustrated with him too, and then they came into this
Speaker 2: season off that great season last year, tremendous momentum. He
Speaker 2: gets hurt in training camp, probably because he wasn't in
Speaker 2: the best shape. While he's hurt, he falls way out
Speaker 2: of shape. He comes back and is so out of
Speaker 2: sh that he has this hand or wrist injury, and
Speaker 2: they shut him down again, yes, to help the injury,
Speaker 2: but also to get him and back in the physical condition.
Speaker 2: He comes back and then he gets injured again in
Speaker 2: the same injury. So I think his health was exacerbated
Speaker 2: his conditioning this year, but I think there was a
Speaker 2: whole package that was detracting. And having said all that,
Speaker 2: I still think it's a controversial, questionable decision to pull
Speaker 2: the ripport on a guy twenty five years old. I
Speaker 2: don't think I could have done it.
Speaker 1: What kind of effect do you think this moved signals
Speaker 1: to players in the league and for the league overall,
Speaker 1: owners executives seem happy that the Dallas Mavericks sent this
Speaker 1: kind of message that they were willing to send away
Speaker 1: their superstar, because it says the message nobody is safe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe it is a tipping point. You eloquently talked
Speaker 2: about that on First Take today. I guess we've got
Speaker 2: to wait and see if Mark Cuban was still the
Speaker 2: owner of the team. All of these things could have
Speaker 2: been true with Luca. And I don't think Mark Cuban
Speaker 2: does it because I think he had a different view
Speaker 2: of it. And again, maybe Nico Harrison and Patrick Dumont,
Speaker 2: who's the governor of the team and you know, signed
Speaker 2: off on this. Maybe he'll maybe they'll regret it. But
Speaker 2: it is fascinating that they're saying that all of the
Speaker 2: things that Luca brings. You know, teams either have generational
Speaker 2: superstars or they're trying to get them. That's it. Essentially,
Speaker 2: you can put teams into two different baskets. Everything else
Speaker 2: that they do. You either got a superstar or you
Speaker 2: don't and you're dreaming of one, so they have one,
Speaker 2: and to send them away because they didn't fit exactly
Speaker 2: what you wanted is a complete going against the grain
Speaker 2: of everything we've seen for the last era in the NBA.
Speaker 2: So maybe this plows up in the Mavericks face. Maybe
Speaker 2: two years from now we see the Lakers coming to
Speaker 2: the same conclusions that the Mavericks have already come to,
Speaker 2: and the Mavericks will look good. I would still bet
Speaker 2: on Luka Doncic. I wouldn't put my life on I
Speaker 2: wouldn't put my house on it. I still I still
Speaker 2: believe that, you know, And when I got frustrated at
Speaker 2: him last year and criticized him heavily, I really I
Speaker 2: still believe that it's part of his story. Arc I
Speaker 2: still think someday he's holding the Larry O'Brien in one hand,
Speaker 2: on the Bill Russell Trophy in the other and telling
Speaker 2: everybody to stick it. I proved you all wrong, and
Speaker 2: it would all have been part of his journey. I
Speaker 2: still think that day could be coming, but the Mavericks don't.
Speaker 2: And the Mavericks know more about Luca than anybody else
Speaker 2: in the NBA.