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Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcast featuring conversations with

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Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. This

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Speaker 1: is Shirley Halpern, executive editor of Music for Variety, and

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Speaker 1: joining me today are two key figures in the audio world.

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Speaker 1: First Up is a conversation with John Sykes, President of

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Speaker 1: Entertainment Enterprises for iHeartMedia, a company which owns and operates

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Speaker 1: more than eight hundred US radio stations and syndicates well

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Speaker 1: known personalities like Ryan Seacrest and popular morning shows like

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Speaker 1: The Breakfast Club and The Woody Show. The I Heart

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Speaker 1: Radio app meanwhile, invests in, produces, and houses hundreds of podcasts,

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Speaker 1: including this one, making it a market leader in the

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Speaker 1: highly competitive world of on demand audio. John Sykes, along

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Speaker 1: with President of National Programming Tom Polman, has made live

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Speaker 1: events his calling card while at I Heeart. That should

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Speaker 1: come as no surprise considering his background in television. Sykes

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Speaker 1: helped launch MTV forty years ago while in his early twenties,

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Speaker 1: and went on to lead programming at VH one, where

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Speaker 1: he was hired as president in nineteen ninety four. Sykes

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Speaker 1: brought in some of the network's most defining franchises including

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Speaker 1: Behind the Music, Storytellers and pop up Video. Sykes and

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Speaker 1: his boss, I Heart chairman Bob Pittman, continued to work

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Speaker 1: together through several more career pivots. Pittman had Sykes run

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Speaker 1: Infinity Broadcasting renamed CBS Radio in two thousand two, and

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Speaker 1: brought him along to private equity firm Pilot Group in

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Speaker 1: two thousand eight. Then in two thousand eleven, Sykes arrived

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Speaker 1: at iHeartMedia formerly Clear Channel, where he's been tasked with

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Speaker 1: developing new business and elevating I Heart's presence across various

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Speaker 1: platforms including television, digital and live events. Sykes's reputation in

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Speaker 1: the music industry as an accomplished executive is one part

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Speaker 1: of his story. The other is his commitment to phil

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Speaker 1: a theropy, dating back to his VH one days, when

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Speaker 1: he helped launch Save the Music, a charity aimed at

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Speaker 1: funding music programs in school. When there's been a national crisis,

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Speaker 1: you can be sure Sykes will lend a hand, as

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Speaker 1: he did in the wake of nine eleven and more recently,

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Speaker 1: in response to the coronavirus pandemic of Just before the

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Speaker 1: world shut down, John Sykes was named chairman of the

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Speaker 1: Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and committed the organization

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Speaker 1: to change and diversify under his watch. True to his word,

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Speaker 1: the Class of One was revealed and represents a gender

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Speaker 1: parody that so many female artists have lobbied for. The

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Speaker 1: inductees include Tina Turner, Carol King and The Go Goes,

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Speaker 1: in addition to Jay Z, Food Fighters and Todd Rundgren.

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Speaker 1: As John Sykes marks his tenth year at My Heart,

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Speaker 1: we thought it was an ideal time to check in

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Speaker 1: and hear about this exciting chapter and audio, how the

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Speaker 1: companies moving on from the pause inflicted by the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: and his views on the rock Halls present and future.

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Speaker 1: Also on this episode, I'll talk with Lisa Warden, vice

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Speaker 1: president of Rock and Alternative at I Heeart Media and

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Speaker 1: program director for Los Angeless All ninety eight point seven.

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Speaker 1: Hers is the sort of radio experience that fewer and

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Speaker 1: fewer get to call their own. After helping build l

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Speaker 1: A's k r o Q otherwise known as k Rock

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Speaker 1: over a period of nearly twenty years, she left to

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Speaker 1: go across the street and built a new format that

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Speaker 1: has swiftly gained an audience share. Welcome back to strictly business.

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Speaker 1: Here's John Sikes has to reflect on his ten years

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Speaker 1: at My Heart. To me, it's always been the same job.

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Speaker 1: It's about my love for music and my desire since

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Speaker 1: I was a kid to share with everyone and anyone

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Speaker 1: something I love. When I was a kid, I used

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Speaker 1: to open up my bedroom window when I heard a

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Speaker 1: Who's song or Marvin Gay song, and I plugged it

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Speaker 1: into an amplifier speaker and I would put it out

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Speaker 1: the window and to my neighborhood. There wasn't anyone there,

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Speaker 1: but to me, I wanted to magnify this sound and

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Speaker 1: share with anyone I could, and so that for me

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Speaker 1: was why I always loved radio as a kid. I'd

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Speaker 1: love the fact that there was his disc jockey discovering

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Speaker 1: a Rolling Stones record, and I found that someone was curating,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to curate. And then as cable television

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Speaker 1: evolved when I was in college, I just fell in

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Speaker 1: love with wanting to launch a video channel, only because

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Speaker 1: I was raised with two things as a child, television

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Speaker 1: and rock and roll music. John, You've worked with Bob Pittman,

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Speaker 1: chairman of I Heart Media, since the birth of MTV,

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Speaker 1: which means forty years this August. I'm curious what about

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Speaker 1: him has changed since then and what's remained the same.

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Speaker 1: I think what's changed is he's loosened up. He was

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Speaker 1: so disciplined that we wore ties. We were so young.

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Speaker 1: We all wanted to look old, so Bob said, we're

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Speaker 1: sutent ties or people will think we mean business. But

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Speaker 1: one thing that has never changed is his laser like

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Speaker 1: focus on building a brand. Bob Pittman could work for MTV,

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Speaker 1: it could work for Century One, six Flags, A Well,

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Speaker 1: or I Heart, and there's no one better who can

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Speaker 1: have the vision for a brand, build messaging points, and

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Speaker 1: have the discipline to execute to connect with the consumer.

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Speaker 1: He has that ability. Bob could walk into any business.

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Speaker 1: He's got that brain to do that in that focus,

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Speaker 1: and that's why forty years later, I still love working

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Speaker 1: with him because he has that same excitement, dedication, and discipline,

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Speaker 1: and he's always the hardest working guy at the company.

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Speaker 1: In April, at the All Access Audio Summit, which was

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Speaker 1: once named the Worldwide Radio Summit, Bob Pittman encouraged attendees

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Speaker 1: to no longer think about MY Heart's business as radio,

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Speaker 1: but rather audio. What's your take, well, He's right on

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Speaker 1: the mark because radio is one platform on which audio

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Speaker 1: is delivering. Audio now is ubiquitous. You can only watch

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Speaker 1: one thing at a time, but you can listen to

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Speaker 1: a million things while you're doing other things. So you

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Speaker 1: can run and listen to a record, you can work out,

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Speaker 1: listen to a podcast, you can do your homework and listen.

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Speaker 1: You can't watch and do anything else. You're just locked

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Speaker 1: into watching one thing. But really audio allows you to

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Speaker 1: do anything and listen, and that, I think is what

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Speaker 1: is really making audio go to renaissance period of it's

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Speaker 1: really coming through in an amazing way. We're seeing that

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Speaker 1: with podcasts. We live in such a mobile society, and

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Speaker 1: the smartphone has untethered us from being locked into our

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Speaker 1: home or just our cards, and so I think that

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Speaker 1: fast moving society has opened the door to one of

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Speaker 1: the oldest forms of communication. It's been it's been an

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Speaker 1: incredible renaissance. I can't give you exact numbers, but the

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Speaker 1: podcasting division of our company year to year is it

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Speaker 1: up is up one revenue. The podcast business in general,

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Speaker 1: it will be a billion dollars in advertising in will

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Speaker 1: be one point six billion around the world, and there's

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Speaker 1: one hundred million people listening to podcasts every month. It's

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Speaker 1: thirty seven percent of the the population. And I Heart we've

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Speaker 1: got five hundred shows and two hundred and fifty million

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Speaker 1: people listening to a month. So it's amazing. We're right

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Speaker 1: in the right place at the right time for audio

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Speaker 1: and we're part of this incredible revolution. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: get your view of how competitive is the podcast space today.

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Speaker 1: It's the fastest growing space probably in all of entertainment.

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Speaker 1: Neconnect with the video streaming business. Like I said, it's

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Speaker 1: gone from almost nothing last few years to a billion

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Speaker 1: dollars advertising business in America billion and a half x

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Speaker 1: us my Heart alone has five hundred podcasts shows out

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Speaker 1: there and and we're the number one with thirty million uniques.

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Speaker 1: NPR number two it probably two thirds, and then they

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Speaker 1: also ran, so people are fighting it in the space.

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Speaker 1: You're hearing about these huge acquisitions of podcast companies, just

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Speaker 1: insane multiples. To me, it's what cable television was. It's

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Speaker 1: a brand new lane that will connect with consumers for

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Speaker 1: a long time, not because just it's a hot thing.

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Speaker 1: It actually is something that that connects with the consumer

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Speaker 1: and works in their lifestyle. What Warner MX did back

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Speaker 1: in with Nickelodeon, MTV, v H one and many more

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Speaker 1: networks to come, and when they weren't making a cent

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Speaker 1: in it, but they were built, they were investing in

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Speaker 1: it exploded, same things happening with podcast a few years ago.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a money maker and now it is, and

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Speaker 1: now it is a huge part of our company. My

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Speaker 1: heart is very much a digital company now. It's often said,

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Speaker 1: and it's still true today that a hit song can't

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Speaker 1: really break onto the mainstream, like in a really large

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Speaker 1: scale without radio. Can you plain why this is? People

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Speaker 1: see these massive streaming numbers, but really you can't get

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Speaker 1: to that top forty without radio. I think the reason

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Speaker 1: why radio still dominates is because it's about curation. You

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Speaker 1: still need someone, especially now with so much choice, to

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Speaker 1: tell you what to listen to. Streaming is great. The

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Speaker 1: streamers are like the record store, but you need to

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Speaker 1: know what you're looking for to go to the record store.

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Speaker 1: There's thousands and thousands of songs out there. Who's going

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Speaker 1: to tell you which one so listened to? Granted, there's apps,

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Speaker 1: but really discovery is still the most important part of music,

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Speaker 1: and that's why radio still dominates. Someone has to play

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Speaker 1: that new Billie Eilish record, someone has to play that

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Speaker 1: new Doja Cat records, and then you go to your

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Speaker 1: Spotify or Apple whatever it might be. But you still

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Speaker 1: need curation. And that's why radio today. Ask any record executive,

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Speaker 1: as any any kid that basically, along with their friends

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Speaker 1: and recommendations that we all have growing up, you still

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Speaker 1: go to your trusted source and that's your DJ. You

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Speaker 1: know that a trusted source has picked it, you're gonna listen,

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Speaker 1: and which is still why radio breaks the record. Then

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Speaker 1: it's great the fact that the record business can make

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Speaker 1: money off the streaming services now it's become the new

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Speaker 1: record store, wonderful because everyone benefits that it's an ecosystem

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Speaker 1: where we are all here today because these artists can

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Speaker 1: get paid for their work because once it goes on

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Speaker 1: the radio, the clock is kicking and you have to

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Speaker 1: really make sure that the consumer connects with it. And

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Speaker 1: even if we give it a shot, you've got to

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Speaker 1: see what happens. So there are so many ways now

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Speaker 1: that we can get behind artists and new music, and

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Speaker 1: we're proud of that. There used to be this kind

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Speaker 1: of I guess the cliche that radio stations didn't listen

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Speaker 1: to anything. They didn't care about artists. They just played

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Speaker 1: the kids. Nothing could be farther from the truth that

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Speaker 1: I heart. We're all fans. We love it when we

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Speaker 1: get credit for breaking the record. We absolutely love it

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Speaker 1: when a record company had calls and said you made

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Speaker 1: the difference. And for us, that means building platforms and

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Speaker 1: mechanisms for those artists to use so they're not just

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Speaker 1: coming to the local program directors saying play the record,

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Speaker 1: play the record, play the record. There's ways to warm

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Speaker 1: it up, and that's what I love. So let's talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about the I Heart Radio Music Festival.

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Speaker 1: I really associate you, John and Tom as well with

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Speaker 1: putting on live events, whether it's the festival in Las

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Speaker 1: Vegas or the Heart Radio Music Awards. How difficult has

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Speaker 1: it been for you this past year? Literally, the world

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Speaker 1: shutdown seven to ten days before we were supposed to

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Speaker 1: go with a show that had a host of usher,

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Speaker 1: We had Lady Gaga, we had every artist on them

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Speaker 1: that we already had taped a presentation. Billy. All of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, the world shutdown. We could have said, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna take the year off and we decided, I

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Speaker 1: guess to go back to the old ad is necessity

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Speaker 1: as a mother of invention. We said, necessity is the

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Speaker 1: mother of reinvention. And what we had to do was

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Speaker 1: pivot or shut the business down for a year. And

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Speaker 1: we can't shut a three point five billion dollar business

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Speaker 1: down where we had no choice. So we sat Tom

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Speaker 1: Holme and myself and the folks at Fox sat down

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Speaker 1: and said, Okay, the artists have to be somewhere their

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Speaker 1: home like we are. Let's do the show from their

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Speaker 1: houses and it morphs a little bit into the living

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Speaker 1: room concert. But we actually put on the first ever

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Speaker 1: living room concert on Fox on the day of our

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Speaker 1: Words show, because we had the two hours earmarked. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: for a fraction of the cost of an award show,

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Speaker 1: we set a Sunday night non sports ratings record on

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Speaker 1: network television because America all went to see what these

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Speaker 1: artists homes look like. And there was Elton John hosting.

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Speaker 1: He said, I can't play. I don't have a piano,

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Speaker 1: but how about a host? And we're like, okay. Elton

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Speaker 1: John was host and then Billie Eilish came in, and

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Speaker 1: Mariah Carey came in, and Alicia Keys and Green Day

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Speaker 1: and Her and so many other artists came in and

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Speaker 1: performed in Dave Crow and it was It turned out

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Speaker 1: to be just incredible celebration of artists saying, we still

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Speaker 1: have to stay in touch with our fans. And so

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Speaker 1: what we did the rest of the year was a

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Speaker 1: record number forty or fifty of living room concerts. We

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Speaker 1: put our festival on virtually, but you acknowledged in an

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Speaker 1: article that we published that it was a ratings challenge

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Speaker 1: the virtual events. Maybe there's like an audience fatigue for it.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about being able to have the Music Awards

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Speaker 1: now a year plus later back in person. Virtual shows

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Speaker 1: were a wonderful stock gap for fans who just had

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Speaker 1: to have music and they find it any way they could,

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Speaker 1: and it was a great way also to have a

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Speaker 1: more personal connection with the artists. But people misslive and

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Speaker 1: people miss getting into a room with lots of other

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Speaker 1: fans and making noise and turning the volume up and

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Speaker 1: escaping from home. We saw the many awards shows really

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Speaker 1: suffering the ratings by trying to go virtually, and that's

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Speaker 1: why with Fox last year, we decided not to do

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Speaker 1: our award show because we felt we would pivot try

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Speaker 1: something different. Thank god, we probably got four times the

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Speaker 1: rating and reach four times the audience number that we

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Speaker 1: would have had we gone with forty people in the room.

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Speaker 1: And so I don't take anything away from people who

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Speaker 1: try to do virtual award shows. Give them credit. They

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Speaker 1: tried their best to reinvent the platform. But it seems

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Speaker 1: like when people want to escape for those shows, they

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Speaker 1: really want big, they want bravado, they want lights and

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Speaker 1: sex appeal and a connection on a platform where you

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Speaker 1: can escape. And that's what we're gonna do this year

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Speaker 1: with our award show. The end of the day, our

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Speaker 1: core business is still communicating through audio. But all these

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Speaker 1: events we do, and all the millions sixty million YouTube

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Speaker 1: streams every month, it all supports the turn I always

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Speaker 1: call it the turbine, really the nerves Center, which is

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Speaker 1: really these audio brands and the talent is on the

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Speaker 1: air and the music they play. This is all part

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Speaker 1: of the ecosystem that drives and supports the I Heart

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Speaker 1: Radio brand. You're the current chairman of the Rock and

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Speaker 1: Roll Hall of Fame, which opened its stores and has

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Speaker 1: certainly seen its sheriff controversy, especially when it comes to

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Speaker 1: emissions that some might find nonsensical. You didn't campaign for

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Speaker 1: the job, but you've made change your mandate as previous

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Speaker 1: strictly business guest lee Or Cohen noted in a recent interview,

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Speaker 1: and sure enough, this year's in ductees are half women.

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Speaker 1: Is that your influence. I've always admired the way that

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Speaker 1: John Landau ran the nominating committee, and I noticed a

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Speaker 1: few years ago, about seven eight years ago, that are

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Speaker 1: not anating committee was no longer just putting rock and

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Speaker 1: roll artists in there. That we began to diversify, and

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Speaker 1: we decided at that point, and I was remember that committee,

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Speaker 1: under the tutelage of John Landau, that we were going

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Speaker 1: to not become the Oldies Hall of Fame, that we

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Speaker 1: were going to continue to respect and honor rock and roll.

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Speaker 1: But also remember the very famous words of Barry Gordy,

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Speaker 1: which you put on every mode on records, which was

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Speaker 1: the sound of young America. So to us, we didn't

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Speaker 1: care whether it was going to be whether it was

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Speaker 1: going to be a rock artist, a pop artist, an

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Speaker 1: alternative artist, a grunge artist. There are a hip hop artists,

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Speaker 1: it was the artist that connected with young people. So

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Speaker 1: if you go back to the twenty five year rule

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Speaker 1: of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame that all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden a few years ago, I was like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: you put a record on, You're eligible this year. If

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Speaker 1: you put a record on, you were eligible to be

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Speaker 1: in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. What was

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Speaker 1: exploding in the ladies in early nineties, rapid hip hop,

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Speaker 1: Run DMC, n W A, dr Dre, Biggie, Small, Puffy,

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Speaker 1: all these artists were exploding and they were permeating pop culture.

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Speaker 1: Artists in the past of Run, DMC and others loved

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Speaker 1: being in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame because

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Speaker 1: it's a place that opened its doors and welcomed diversity,

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Speaker 1: different kinds of music and different sounds, and honored what

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Speaker 1: rock and roll was all about in the first place,

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Speaker 1: was escapism and connecting with young people who are discovering

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Speaker 1: new genres, new sounds. So the last thing we want

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Speaker 1: to do is become our parents. We wanted to basically

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Speaker 1: keep young and say connected in that Rock and Hall

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Speaker 1: of Fame. If it's done the right way, long after

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Speaker 1: I leave, will represent a sound that we don't even

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Speaker 1: know about yet in the next twenty years. And that's

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Speaker 1: how you remain relevant, you evolved with culture. And so

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Speaker 1: this year with Tina Turner, Carol King, the go goes,

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Speaker 1: Todd Rundgren, jay Z, the Foo Fighters, and special awards

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Speaker 1: going out to Gil Scott Heron, Clarence Savant, the Black Godfather,

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Speaker 1: the Omini Arigan Award, and obviously Randy Rose, a guitar

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Speaker 1: player for Ozzy Osbourne, Billy Preston. How diverse a lineup

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Speaker 1: is that it's incredible? What will the ceremony look like

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Speaker 1: this year? If all goes right, We're going to have

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Speaker 1: six of the greatest artists in the world in Cleveland,

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Speaker 1: And if all of them can't make it, their music

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Speaker 1: will be represented in a eighteen thousand seed arena uh

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Speaker 1: that will be shot for a show to be aired

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Speaker 1: three weeks later on HBO, And it will be a

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Speaker 1: huge celebration, one of the most diverse class of inductees

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Speaker 1: in the history of the Rock Mall Hall of Fame.

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Speaker 1: And I'm so waiting for it. And can you imagine

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Speaker 1: those artists or artists paying tribute to those artists on

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Speaker 1: the same stage in one night, From Tina Turner, Carol King,

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Speaker 1: to jay Z, to the Foods, to Todd to the

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Speaker 1: co goes, I think we're going to have quite a

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Speaker 1: night on October thirty in Cleveland, Ohio, and and I'm

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Speaker 1: just so happy that I get to be there. It's

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Speaker 1: like one of the greatest dreams of my life to

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Speaker 1: be the chairman of the Rockell Hall Fame. Like I

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Speaker 1: only wish I had the job when I was eighteen.

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Speaker 1: I would have been more popular in high school. When

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Speaker 1: Lisa Warden was in high school in southern California in

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Speaker 1: the nine eighties, she too was obsessed with music and

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Speaker 1: set her sights on a career in the music industry.

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Speaker 1: She got into radio almost by accident, starting as an

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Speaker 1: intern in the promotion department of a record label. Full

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Speaker 1: time gigs followed, and Warden got to learn the ins

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Speaker 1: and outs of how songs become hits. From the record

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Speaker 1: company end of things. She was hired at k Rock,

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Speaker 1: l A's popular modern rock station, helping to curate the

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Speaker 1: sound of that station that touted itself as world famous.

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Speaker 1: Now owned by Odyssey, the company formerly known as Entercom.

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Speaker 1: When Warden left in seventeen to join the competition as

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Speaker 1: a brand manager at iHeart Radio, the radio world was shook.

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Speaker 1: Sure enough, her arrival strengthened the station's momentum so that

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Speaker 1: all seven would eventually overtake kr Q in the ratings.

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Speaker 1: As John Sykes told Strictly Business of her hiring our

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Speaker 1: team here, they saw her as a star that was

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Speaker 1: not being utilized due to things that change and that's

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Speaker 1: the world, and offered her a role to be part

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Speaker 1: of the vibrant format that we believed in so much

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Speaker 1: at iHeart and like we do in all our formats,

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Speaker 1: but we still alternative is not an also ram, but

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Speaker 1: an important part of our ecosystem. And we're lucky that

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Speaker 1: she came over and and all of our most important meetings.

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Speaker 1: Lisa's in the room. We need to take a quick break,

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Speaker 1: but we'll be back with My Heart radios. Lisa Warden,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Strictly Business. Here's Lisa Warden. Lisa, welcome

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Speaker 1: to Strictly Business. Your first job in the music industry

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Speaker 1: was as West Coast Director of Alternative Promotion at our

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Speaker 1: Cier Records. Can I ask you what attracted you to promotion? Like,

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Speaker 1: what did you like about it? I love working with

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Speaker 1: the artists and I got to learn to really like radio,

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Speaker 1: and I never knew that would be my path. But

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Speaker 1: when Arcia hired me to do radio promotion and it

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Speaker 1: was for alternative, I was all about it because that's

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Speaker 1: the music I love so and I realized able to

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Speaker 1: do that promotion job, you've got to be a people person.

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Speaker 1: And I was super passionate about the music, and I

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Speaker 1: think that shown through. So it helped me be successful

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Speaker 1: at it, and I did. I like doing it. I

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Speaker 1: got to promote music to radio pets and music directors,

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Speaker 1: but then I got to go to shows and it

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Speaker 1: was I liked all of that. I liked being in

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Speaker 1: the mix and working with the artists, and then I

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Speaker 1: enjoyed working with radio at the same time. What kind

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00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,920
Speaker 1: of acts were you working at our TA? This little

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Speaker 1: band called the juggalo Ants, who I love. They're from

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Speaker 1: Boston area, so sweet. I worked with them. I worked

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Speaker 1: with Lisa Lowe because they had the Reality Bite soundtrack.

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Speaker 1: I worked Dave Matthews band his first album. So when

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Speaker 1: did the pivot happen? From label two, I'm gonna work

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Speaker 1: at a radio station, So that happened. At the end

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Speaker 1: of I was working at our A and doing great

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Speaker 1: and feeling great and was very happy and through some

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Speaker 1: mutual friends in the business, they started to say, because

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Speaker 1: I knew at the time I had become close to

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Speaker 1: the people at k Rock through my job. So it

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Speaker 1: was Kevin Weatherly, Jean sam Bloom, and at the time

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Speaker 1: Darcy Fulmer was the music director and Darcy was leaving

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Speaker 1: to go to MTV, and so some people were like, hey,

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Speaker 1: Kevin's brought up your name for the music directory job,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like really. I was like, I've never done

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Speaker 1: radio before. I don't know. And I said I'm interested,

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Speaker 1: and that's really intriguing that I've not done radio before

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Speaker 1: and I don't know how to do radio and if

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Speaker 1: I would teach you, and I was like okay. So

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00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:41,719
Speaker 1: it was one of those weird things where I slept

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00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: on it and I thought about it. I went, man,

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00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 1: this is such a cool opportunity to get to work

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Speaker 1: at this radio station I grew up listening to. I

404
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: think I need to do this. The radio is funny

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Speaker 1: and how it can look like a stable career where

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Speaker 1: somebody could spend twenty years at a station, and at

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00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 1: the same time it's completely unpredictable, as we've seen Heritage

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00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: stations who can flip formats in the snap of a finger.

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Speaker 1: You had this experience. I imagine having worked briefly at

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Speaker 1: w HFS in the Baltimore Washington, d C. Area, which

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Speaker 1: was a highly influential modern rock station in the ninety

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Speaker 1: nineties that signed off in two thousand eight. I was

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Speaker 1: there when they flipped the form out of HFUS, so

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Speaker 1: I got to be there for that, which I was crazy.

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Speaker 1: So in early two thousand five, I was pulled into

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Speaker 1: a meeting one morning and completely blindsided and told, hey,

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00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: at mean today we're flipping the switch and we're taking

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Speaker 1: the station with Spanish tropical and this is how radio

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Speaker 1: does things sometimes, and especially back in those days. All

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Speaker 1: the time I'm assuming this is it's a chase for ratings, right,

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00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 1: chase for money. It's always about money at the end

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00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: of the day. It's like someone very smart told me,

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Speaker 1: your station will never be flipped because of bad ratings.

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Speaker 1: Your station will be flipped because of bad revenue. They

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00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 1: saw more dollars to be had and and granted the

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00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: station was ratings challenged for a long time. When you

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00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 1: do research and all those behind the scenes things and

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00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: someone shows you, hey, there's a hole for this format,

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Speaker 1: and here's what the money of every new opportunity could

430
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: be it's much larger than what you have. They're gonna

431
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: do it, so b c N. I feel like it

432
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: was the first real big one. You know, you saw

433
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: Incident Atlanta and n h F S and that's when

434
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: you go, man, there's no sacred cows. But I feel

435
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: like there is a sacred cow in K rock. Yeah, no,

436
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: for sure, when you wear k rock. One of the

437
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: pivots programming wise came around the mid That was when

438
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,679
Speaker 1: the station started playing songs by Lord Deaf, Punk of VICI.

439
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: It sort of veered away from the guitar rock of

440
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 1: Red Hot, Chili Peppers and Pearl Jam towards you know,

441
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: more electronic damn Um Indie records. Can you remember how

442
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: that came about and what was the thinking behind it.

443
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: The beauty of pay Rock is that station has always

444
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: been about being on the pulse of what's popular and

445
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: alternative music being there as long as I was pretty

446
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: much to seventeen minus my little hiatus to Washington, d C.

447
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: We always tried to best reflect what was going on

448
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: in pop culture in the alternative rock scene. It just

449
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: happened that the station did the best ratings wise during

450
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: those nineties the grunge eras really what kicked it off,

451
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: and then into the early two thousands when Lincoln Park

452
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: and bands like that became popular, and the station's ratings

453
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: were astronomical at the time, and it really cemented that's

454
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 1: what people knew it as, and it was hard to

455
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 1: get that image out of their heads. And it's not

456
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: that we tried to. We still played all that music,

457
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 1: but when things like like you said, the Killers in

458
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 1: the mid two thousands came on the scene and the

459
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: White Stripes and transferredn in and that's that's what the

460
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: music started to lean more into the pop sound. It

461
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: was hard because the listeners were like, but we want

462
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: that rock, even though that's might be popular right now,

463
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: we love this more. And it was like we tried

464
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 1: to give them all of it. And then in the

465
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: tents it continue to go down that road with the

466
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: artists that you named, and we were going to play them.

467
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 1: That's what that station has always been, even in the eighties,

468
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 1: playing bounds like Depeche Mode and the Curate's like that

469
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: station was built on being at the forefront of the

470
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: music scene and it just is so hard though to

471
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: be playing such aggressive rock music and again the listeners

472
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: loved it station with ratings were so huge. Then to

473
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: be hearing a beach and things like that, the listeners

474
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: were like, what is happening. It's just always been about

475
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: reflecting what the tastes and what was popular, learn what

476
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: was that like to try to balance those two things,

477
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: because I feel like rock is still battling that very much.

478
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: And I think the difference between what has gone on

479
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: in the last year on Kai Rok and then what

480
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 1: we would do before is we really tried to marry

481
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: all of the sounds. Even with the way the station

482
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: was programmed and the music was scheduled. It was tried

483
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: to be intertwined in wovents all the sounds would fit

484
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: nicely together, and I think it were and it did.

485
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,719
Speaker 1: The ratings were still good a year ago. I think

486
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: they made a conscious decision to abandon a lot of

487
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: the older music in favor of going for a younger sound,

488
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 1: trying to targeting under demographic and that's the choice they

489
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: made to do it that way. We really tried to

490
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: super serve a large audience and please the people that

491
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: grew up with the station and also please younger listeners.

492
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: It was very hard to do very hard, but we

493
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: did manage to do it, and other things happened, like

494
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: in all ninety seven comes along, which ironically, again that's

495
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: where I am now, but for a long time I

496
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 1: wasn't and I was battling against all my need seven.

497
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: But that made it harder because you had a newer

498
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: alternative station come into town who didn't have that heritage

499
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: that Kai Rock has. And then they got a really

500
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: cool young morning show, the Woody Show, and that was

501
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: hard because we had Kevin and bean on who are

502
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: again very loved, very popular, but in a way it

503
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: could be repositioned as old when you have this show

504
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: across the street that's younger. It's all very it's all

505
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 1: very interesting. It's so interesting to be in your position

506
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: because here you are, like probably every morning waking up,

507
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: just fighting tooth and nail against this other station that

508
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: you eventually joined. But I also was at that point

509
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: in my life where I was ready for something new

510
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: and something more. And Kevin, who I was hand in

511
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: hand with a Ki Rock, I was honest about that

512
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 1: with him. I was ready from the are. I had

513
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: been the assistant program director and music director there for

514
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: all long as time, and I was just like, this

515
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: is it. This is my next calling. They wanted me

516
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: to run the alternative and rock radio department at the

517
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: you know, this is it? So I just knew. I

518
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: was like, this is what I wanted to do for

519
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: so long. So what was ALL ninety eight seven doing right?

520
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: In terms of its programming? They occupied the more all

521
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: pop lane musically and again with PI Rocks saddled with

522
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: that rock heritage. All ninety eight seven did the right

523
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: thing competitively by saying okay, great, we're gonna be this

524
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: younger alternative sound and then nearly by calling themselves all

525
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: seven and k rock is called k Rock. I co

526
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: wrote an article in called It's the End of the

527
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: World famous k Rock as we know it. We call

528
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: it the article because I think everyone knows that article

529
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: very well. Yeah. Well. One of the things that was

530
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: mentioned in that piece, which definitely ruffled a lot of feathers,

531
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: but also I thought was an accurate time stamp of

532
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: what was happening, and one of the things that was

533
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: angering pundits or radio lovers, if there is such a thing,

534
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: was the notion that playlist would mirror itself on East

535
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: and West Coast. As someone who is a brand manager

536
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: working across different radio stations. What's your take on that? Yeah, now,

537
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: I actually have the opposite opinion of national playlisting. I

538
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: think that it's very important for radio to reflect their market.

539
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: And I'll be the first one to say there is

540
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: a big difference between all my need seven in l

541
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: A and KTC L in Denver and w RF and Philly,

542
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: which are two of our other big brands. So I

543
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: don't believe in a one size fittall mentality of programming

544
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: at all, and I heard doesn't as a whole. I

545
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: know that there was the comment of hits are the

546
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: hits everywhere and by the way, that the really big hits. Yeah,

547
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: sure they are the really big ones. They are hits everywhere,

548
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: but there are certainly nuances to each market at how

549
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: the station should sound, meaning the music, the imaging, the jocks,

550
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: all the important pieces that make a great product to

551
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: listen to, and the music being a big part of that.

552
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: We have brands like our station in Houston, it Leans

553
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: really rock and it's huge. It's number one across all

554
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: demo and a lot of what I play in l

555
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: A wouldn't work there. So yeah, I'm not really convinced

556
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: that's the right approach. So at all ninety seven, how

557
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: do you balance the TikTok driven the hits which sometimes

558
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: cross over into like emo pop punk territory or I've

559
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: read a lot about the notion that a song that

560
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: blew up on TikTok is something fleeting doesn't have the

561
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: staying power. But is that the case? From where you sit?

562
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: I think we are still figuring out TikTok, and there's

563
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: a few takeaways. I think that there are songs that

564
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: will be big on TikTok that could be hits on

565
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: the radio. I'm not convinced they're necessarily in my format.

566
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: I think they might be better studed for the HR

567
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: and pop format. I also think songs blow up on

568
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: TikTok from ten to twelve seconds doesn't necessarily mean they

569
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: will want to hear three minutes of that song on

570
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: the radio. I'm not convinced the listeners who listen to

571
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: radio care about what's going on on TikTok. So there's

572
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: so much to consider. And that's where an intercom is

573
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: doubling down or Odyssey or whatever. They're doubling down on

574
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: this TikTok sound and that's cool in a way, I

575
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: go thanks for doing that, because I could learn and

576
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: watch you guys do that experiment and see how it goes.

577
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: There's been this long standing rule, I guess, in radio,

578
00:32:55,160 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: which discourages playing two female artists back to back a variety.

579
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: We've written a lot about this, especially in the country format,

580
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: and how resistant it was to playing female artists at all,

581
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: and you know, thinking about k rock specifically. Kay Hanley

582
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: from Letters to Cleo wrote an amazing article for us

583
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: about what it was like to be in Letters to

584
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: Cleo in the mid nineties when Atlantis Morris sets Jagged

585
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: Little Pill came out at the same time, and the

586
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: reaction by radio was, well, we can only have one

587
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: female rock song programmed at a time. Has this gone

588
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: away or are we still sort of battling this inequality?

589
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: It's so funny to bring us up. So during COVID

590
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: they were filming in Atlantis Morrisset documentary and I was

591
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: asked to be part of it because Chi Rock was

592
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: so instrumental with that album, so I gladly wanted to

593
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: be part of the dock. I went in and I

594
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: filmed with them, and they asked They said he is

595
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: it true that back then you could only live? Amit?

596
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: How many females you play on the air? And I

597
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: remember there was a rule when scheduling k Rock, I

598
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: was not allowed to play females back to back, kind

599
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: of how I was trained to schedule music. And that's

600
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: how I was brought up in rading. It's not like

601
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: I thought to myself, what's up with that? It was like, Okay,

602
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: well that's what you're teaching me, then I'm gonna do

603
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: what the rules say I should do. It now seems

604
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: silly to me. And when I left and cross the

605
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: street and came over here and now here I am

606
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: I'm the one in control. I was like, that role

607
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: is gone. And I'm proud to say. We play so

608
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: many female artists on all my Neate seven and on

609
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: a lot of our alternative stations, but especially here, and

610
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: we play our three or four females in a row

611
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: all the time. It just sounds good and I don't

612
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: think about it, and just it is what it is.

613
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: There hasn't been a listener revolt. God No. If anything,

614
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: I think that we've gotten compliments. There's so many terrific

615
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: female voices in the alternative format currently, from Billie Eilish

616
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: to Phoebe Bridgers to ash Um. Each of these artists

617
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 1: have actually appeared on a program that you're hosting called

618
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: She Is the Voice. Can you tell us more about it? So?

619
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: She Is the Voice airs every Friday night at the

620
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: p M on All I Need So. So the mission

621
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 1: of the show is to showcase female talent, and it's

622
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: everything from the female artists that paved the way for

623
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 1: alternative music, so Kareno from the Yas Lawence and the

624
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: Machine did One Stefani to p J Harvey, try Amus Atlantis,

625
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: but then also playing the artists of now, so the

626
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: Claros and the Shades and the Billie Eilishes and those.

627
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 1: But then I also make sure I reserve at least

628
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: two to three slots every week to play someone unsigned

629
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: or on a really small independent label, local artists and

630
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: give those artists a place to be heard. And those

631
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: are the ones that really freak out. Billy Aish doesn't

632
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: need more. Plus she is just fine. Some of these

633
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,439
Speaker 1: artists that our local and I'm signed, it's like they're

634
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: hearing their song on the radio. It's just super cute

635
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 1: when you know they're freaking out and that's what I love.

636
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: I love that, so I wanted to give them a place. Lisa,

637
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. Tune in

638
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: next week for another episode of Strictly Business