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Speaker 1: This is my legacy. In this week's bonus drop, doctor

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Speaker 1: Vec Murphy, former US Surgeon General, and his wife, doctor

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Speaker 1: Alice Chen, talk about what it means to thrive in

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Speaker 1: life into relationships. The Vec shares the best advice he's

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Speaker 1: ever received, how they are modeling healthy relationships for their kids,

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Speaker 1: and the best prescription for disconnection. Let's jump in.

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Speaker 2: I know that your father was also a doctor who

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Speaker 2: also did house calls, actually going directly to his patients,

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Speaker 2: and in fact, you took that a little bit even father,

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Speaker 2: And the name of your podcast is called house Call,

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Speaker 2: so you really have used that dream and you are

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Speaker 2: literally living it out.

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Speaker 3: You're absolutely right that the you know that has stuck

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Speaker 3: with me and it became the name of the podcast

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Speaker 3: that I had when I was in office. But the

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Speaker 3: other thing about it is when I was training in medicine,

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Speaker 3: we didn't really do house calls. It was a time

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Speaker 3: when house were sort of being phased out in a sense.

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Speaker 3: They were the things people used to do in the past,

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Speaker 3: but not the way medicine is practiced in the future.

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Speaker 3: But I did have the opportunity just a few times

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Speaker 3: early in training to visit patients in their homes and

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Speaker 3: I will tell you that it was really eye opening

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Speaker 3: for me because as many visits as I would have

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Speaker 3: with a patient talking to them about their circumstances, there

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Speaker 3: was something different when you actually went to their home.

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Speaker 3: I remember when older woman I was taking care of

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Speaker 3: in my clinic and I was worried that she was falling,

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Speaker 3: you know, at home, and I was trying to figure

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Speaker 3: out what is going on? Why is she falling? And

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Speaker 3: I would ask her questions and I don't know. I'm

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Speaker 3: trying to balance as best I can, but it's getting harder.

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Speaker 3: And finally I was able to make his call. And

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Speaker 3: when I visited her home, what I saw was that

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Speaker 3: the house was stacked with books and with other objects

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Speaker 3: that she had collected over the years that made the

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Speaker 3: hallways really narrow and hard to navigate. I saw that

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Speaker 3: the carpets were bunched up in rolls, which meant that

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Speaker 3: it was easy to trip. And I also particularly saw

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Speaker 3: that she was living at home alone right, and that

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Speaker 3: even though she had mentioned people come by the truth

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Speaker 3: that she was spending much of her time alone. And

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Speaker 3: as I watched her try to navigate from the living

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Speaker 3: room to the kitchen to the doorway, all of that scene,

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Speaker 3: I could see how difficult it was. So sometimes seeing

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Speaker 3: where people are in their natural settings for five minutes

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Speaker 3: can be more powerful than trying to talk to them

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Speaker 3: for an hour about what might be happening in their life.

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Speaker 3: And so I saw how powerful that was. And the

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Speaker 3: title House Calls for our podcast was really it was

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Speaker 3: based on the idea of trying to step into in

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Speaker 3: a figurative sense, people's homes and understand more about them

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Speaker 3: and about the world in which they were growing up.

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Speaker 2: And in that podcast that House Calls and you talk

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Speaker 2: about you interview your guests about finding joy in their

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Speaker 2: lives and what that one piece of advice that changed

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Speaker 2: the way that you approach your own life.

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Speaker 3: So Josh Grobin, who's an extraordinary musician and singer a

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Speaker 3: member in the episode I did with him, you know,

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Speaker 3: he talked to me about, you know, about a teacher.

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Speaker 3: You know, he had a music teacher early on in

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Speaker 3: school who allowed him to take refuge in the music room,

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Speaker 3: you know, at a time, you know, early on in

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Speaker 3: his life when he often didn't feel like he fit

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Speaker 3: in or he wasn't comfortable, and that had a profound

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Speaker 3: impact on Josh, not just giving him the chance to

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Speaker 3: engage more in music and practice on his own and explore.

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Speaker 3: But it gave him a place of safety, and it

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Speaker 3: also taught him that there were people who look out

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Speaker 3: for you in life, this teacher, and the lesson I

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Speaker 3: took away from that is is that you never know

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Speaker 3: when small acts of kindness from you will make a

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Speaker 3: profound impact on someone else. And the science actually tells

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Speaker 3: us very clearly that we underestimate how much of a

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Speaker 3: contribution we make to other people's lives. We under just

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Speaker 3: made how much warmth they perceive in our interactions, and

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Speaker 3: we sometimes when I write them off and say, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that wasn't a big deal. I just said hello, But

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Speaker 3: it makes it real big difference. So I took that away.

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Speaker 3: The last one I'll just share with you is something

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Speaker 3: that came to me from in a conversation with Sebastian Younger,

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Speaker 3: who is a wonderful journalist and author who wrote this

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Speaker 3: extraordinary book Tribe, but then has written many books since then,

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Speaker 3: including one on a near death experience that he had

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Speaker 3: where he had an aneurysm that bursts when he was

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Speaker 3: in a remote location and it took him a long

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Speaker 3: time to get to medical care and he quite literally

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Speaker 3: almost died. And he reflected in a lot during that

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Speaker 3: time and the months after about what really mattered in life,

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Speaker 3: and our conversation found its way to children, because he

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Speaker 3: has two young young girls and we have two kids ourselves,

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Speaker 3: and I asked him, you know, as a new parent,

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Speaker 3: I remember very distinctly. I can feel it this as

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Speaker 3: I'm talking to, just the anxiety early on of being

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Speaker 3: a new parent and just not knowing so much of

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Speaker 3: the things that you feel you're supposed to know as

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Speaker 3: a parent. But sleep was a big one because our

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Speaker 3: first one had a really difficult time sleeping, and I

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Speaker 3: remember friends gave us books. We were reading stuff online

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Speaker 3: trying to figure out do we sleep train our child.

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Speaker 3: We tried that failed like seven times. I think it

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Speaker 3: was six times, seven times something at that but it

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Speaker 3: was very anxiety provoking. And finally I asked Sebastian actually

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Speaker 3: a little bit about how he approaches sleep with his children,

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Speaker 3: and when he said, gave me so much comfort. He said, Vivagu,

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Speaker 3: we just take this mattress and we unroll it on

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Speaker 3: the floor in the living room, and at bedtime, the

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Speaker 3: four of us just pilon to that mattress and we

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Speaker 3: sleep together because that's the way we've slept for thousands

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Speaker 3: of years as human beings. And my wife and I

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Speaker 3: felt some of the guilt that you know, we had

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Speaker 3: sort of felt over the years co sleeping with our

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Speaker 3: kids melt away because we had been told, Hey, if

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Speaker 3: you go sleep with your kids, are not going to

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Speaker 3: be independent, they're going to be able to fall asleep

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Speaker 3: on their own, They're going to be stunted for the

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Speaker 3: rest of their life. You're going to mar them socially,

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Speaker 3: like all kinds of things that we were told. But

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Speaker 3: somehow we just felt natural for us to sleep with

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Speaker 3: our kids. And Sebastian in that moment, reminded me that

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Speaker 3: what we were doing was actually consistent with how we've

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Speaker 3: seevevolve as human beings for thousands of years. And it

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Speaker 3: reminded me that when we can talk as parents openly

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Speaker 3: and honestly about some of these struggles, sometimes we can

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Speaker 3: find the comfort and support that so many of us

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Speaker 3: desperately need as parents, because a lot of us are

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Speaker 3: struggling alone.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and Alice, I know that you've said that, and

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Speaker 2: I love I love this so much that healing starts

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Speaker 2: with being acknowledging of what depletes you. I just think

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Speaker 2: that that's such a phenomenal line, is such a just

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Speaker 2: a very straight straightforward wait for all of us, but

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Speaker 2: particularly for women, to start looking at healing and wholeness.

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Speaker 2: And so what signs do you tell your patients to

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Speaker 2: look for when they're needing to unplug or they're looking

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Speaker 2: at what depletes them.

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Speaker 4: Part of it is really sort of thinking about who

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Speaker 4: you are in your best moments and then looking at

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Speaker 4: yourself as you are in this moment, and like, is

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Speaker 4: there a gap? Are you? You know that? I remember

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Speaker 4: there was a time when I was experiencing a lot

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Speaker 4: of burnout and I would sort of sneer at people

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Speaker 4: on the street for walking a little too close and

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Speaker 4: and and I was like, oh, that is entirely not

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Speaker 4: who I am. That's just that's just not it. Or

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Speaker 4: I'd just be irritated at little things that that shouldn't

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Speaker 4: be irritating me. And I see my.

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Speaker 2: Husband looking at me, he's given me the side.

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Speaker 4: And sometimes it feels so big when you're in those

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Speaker 4: like most you're like the people are being annoying, that's

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Speaker 4: why it's not It's not me. And sometimes I mean

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Speaker 4: how often do we have an argument and I just say,

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Speaker 4: you know what, I just need to go to bed,

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Speaker 4: and in the morning it's like, hey, great, just see.

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Speaker 1: What do you want to eat.

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Speaker 4: Not that sleeping fixes every problem, but I think I

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Speaker 4: think we we we tend to sort of get focused

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Speaker 4: on the big questions and the big issues in our

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Speaker 4: lives and then forget that I didn't need lunch. That's

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Speaker 4: why this issue, this problem is so hard for me

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Speaker 4: to deal with. If I just had a sandwich, just

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Speaker 4: a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, that's all I need

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Speaker 4: to be able to have a little oomph and feel

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Speaker 4: like I'm taken care of. I can. I can do this.

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Speaker 4: All I need is to call my mom or call

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Speaker 4: my best friend and have a little chitty chat in

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Speaker 4: order to deal with this problem at work, or this

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Speaker 4: problem in in in at home, or whatever problem in

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Speaker 4: the world. I think we forget that we have very

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Speaker 4: very basic needs of food, water, sleep, people for some people.

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Speaker 4: For me, like I have to have like like music, nature, plants,

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Speaker 4: like there are things that are really important to me.

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Speaker 4: Someone else it might be for this one it's it's

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Speaker 4: it's going to the gym. Sometimes I'm like, just go

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Speaker 4: to the gym later.

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Speaker 5: This is why I love my Legacy podcast because we

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Speaker 5: get to hear all the cool, like the open stuff.

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Speaker 5: I'm suspecting this is the first time on the public record.

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Speaker 5: I was just like, I'm going to give you a prescription.

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Speaker 5: You might be search in general, go to the gym.

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Speaker 4: Shoes here go go.

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Speaker 6: We love it. If you could share this episode with

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Speaker 6: someone who you admire, someone who shows up for you,

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Speaker 6: who cares about you, who lives their legacy every day,

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Speaker 6: We'll be back in a moment.

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Speaker 5: Now back to my legacy.

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Speaker 4: Let me ask, in light of the fact course you're

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Speaker 4: both phrasing small children.

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Speaker 6: What do you all trying to model were your kids

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Speaker 6: when it comes to relationships.

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Speaker 4: I think it was funny when you think about modeling

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Speaker 4: for your children, like constant like should I do this

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Speaker 4: in front of them? Should I do that in front

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Speaker 4: of them? Try not? Is it gonna scar them for life?

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Speaker 4: It's going to teach them something? Will they remember this forever?

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Speaker 4: Forget it entirely? I feel like you're definitely trying to

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Speaker 4: model for them the importance of being there, being there

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Speaker 4: for each other, being there for like people in our

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Speaker 4: in our nuclear family, being there for our our parents

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Speaker 4: and our sisters, being there for our friends, Like how

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Speaker 4: important relationships are. That they are more important than you know,

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Speaker 4: school work and learning algebra. Well they're not learning algebra.

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Speaker 4: They're saying young for it. Well he's trying to.

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Speaker 3: But he's funny me because I was trying to explain

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Speaker 3: the concept of imaginary numbers to the kids, okay, like

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Speaker 3: and I was like, I think they can grasp this,

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Speaker 3: but like got made fun of.

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Speaker 2: She's laughing now.

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Speaker 4: But we do definitely try to like make it a

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Speaker 4: point that like, Okay, we're choosing to like be with

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Speaker 4: family over the summer, that we're choosing to sort of

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Speaker 4: like be with be with people and be there for people,

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Speaker 4: and like this person needs our help. That's why we're

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Speaker 4: that's where we're going and not just playing at home today.

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Speaker 4: So I think that's a that's a really important piece.

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Speaker 4: I think also like the vulnerability and talking about things,

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, growing up in my household, like

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Speaker 4: my you know, very like sort of like traditional Chinese household.

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Speaker 4: You don't talk about feelings and things. You don't talk

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Speaker 4: about like loving each other. That's just weird. You give

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Speaker 4: somebody vowl a melon. I mean, I think both models work.

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Speaker 4: I think whether it's said or it's acted out, that

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Speaker 4: we are expressing how much we how much we love

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Speaker 4: each other. I think we're really trying to model that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think yeah, the building one else said, I

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Speaker 3: think we want we want our kids to learn what

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Speaker 3: it means to show up for other people, right, and

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Speaker 3: that means not waiting to be invited in, to respond

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Speaker 3: when somebody needs help, not waiting to check on someone.

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Speaker 3: It means not like letting your shyness or worry about

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Speaker 3: etiquette supersede you're responding with what somebody needs. I'll just

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Speaker 3: give you a simple example from yesterday, from two days ago.

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Speaker 3: We ended up in the children's er a couple of

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Speaker 3: days ago because my daughter was having difficulty with her

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Speaker 3: left with her right hip, and we didn't you know,

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Speaker 3: we're both doctors, but we're both adult doctors, right, and

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Speaker 3: so which means that when when our child is a problem,

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Speaker 3: we'll try our best to assess it. But we're also

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Speaker 3: cognizant of the fact that there's a lot we may

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Speaker 3: not know. So we did all the usual like aminations

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Speaker 3: maneuvers we would and in adult patient we realized there's

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Speaker 3: something something unusual that was happening with her hip, and

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Speaker 3: so we took her to the emergency room. And the

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Speaker 3: part that makes me really proud about is that my

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Speaker 3: son there was never a question that he was coming right.

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Speaker 3: He just assumed, like when he knew that she had

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Speaker 3: to go to the hospital. The first thing he did

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Speaker 3: is he reached over and he hugged her and he

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Speaker 3: held her clothes right, and then he came got in

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Speaker 3: the car. He came. When we got to the hospital.

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Speaker 3: We're in the in the in the you know, the

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Speaker 3: bay in the emergency room, and she climbs onto the

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Speaker 3: to the gurney and to the bed, and he climbs

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Speaker 3: right in with her because he knew that his place

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Speaker 3: is right next to her, right and to make sure

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Speaker 3: she's okay. As well, when she went for her ultrasound

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Speaker 3: of the hip, he came right along as well. There

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Speaker 3: wasn't a question that he was staying back in the room.

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Speaker 3: And it's that kind of like closeness, that sort of

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Speaker 3: like don't wait for permission, you know, but step up

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Speaker 3: and show up for the people you love. We want

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Speaker 3: them to learn that because and to instinctively practice that,

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Speaker 3: because I actually do think that that is the catalyst

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Speaker 3: for community. It's when people when neighbors don't wait to

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Speaker 3: be invited in, when they realize someone is struggling, they

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Speaker 3: show up with food, with support. When friends do that

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Speaker 3: for each other. I think so often we wait and

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Speaker 3: assume that if somebody needs us to ask for us,

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Speaker 3: so we don't want to intrude on them, we don't

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Speaker 3: want to invade their privacy. But so many people are

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Speaker 3: just waiting and hoping that somebody will show up in

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Speaker 3: their lives. And when we do, it can be an

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Speaker 3: extraordinary source of not just like joy and support for them,

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Speaker 3: but every time you show up or remind somebody that

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Speaker 3: they matter. And in a world where so many people

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Speaker 3: feel invisible, sometimes that's everything.

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Speaker 4: And there's a flip side to that as well, which

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Speaker 4: is teaching them to accept help and accept kindness. I

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Speaker 4: feel like when soon to be moms, they don't actually

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Speaker 4: ask advice, You just give them advice. This is on

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Speaker 4: solicit advice. What I'm saying. I've come to say like

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Speaker 4: if anybody offers you anything, just say yes, because that's

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Speaker 4: something that I learned as a new mom, was like

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Speaker 4: you just need people to show up with food and

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Speaker 4: show up to hold the baby for five minutes because

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Speaker 4: you really do need that shower, like you just need people.

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Speaker 4: And I feel like it took me so long to

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Speaker 4: learn that lesson that I want our kids and right

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Speaker 4: now that they obviously accept help because they're seven and eight,

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Speaker 4: but as they get older and as it becomes the

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Speaker 4: independent people to just just let people in because people

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Speaker 4: also need to be let in and feel like they

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Speaker 4: matter to you because you're accepting their help.

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Speaker 3: And just to talk about guys for a moment here too.

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Speaker 3: It's such a good point al series is about moms,

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Speaker 3: and it reminded me. We got a message once, an

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Speaker 3: email from a member of the public who said, I'm

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Speaker 3: a new dad and I'm a doctor and my wife

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Speaker 3: is a doctor too, and I noticed that when our

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Speaker 3: son was born, all of her female friends were congratulating her,

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Speaker 3: asking her what help she needed, offering support, and none

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Speaker 3: of my male friends in the hospital like barely even

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Speaker 3: said anything about the fact that I had a child,

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Speaker 3: much less offered support, like what's going on here? Right?

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Speaker 3: That was his question to us. And I do think

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Speaker 3: that at some level that that men in particular, I

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Speaker 3: think have a hard time asking for help and often

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Speaker 3: even accepting help. I think because we bring everybody, like

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Speaker 3: boys and girls up, but particularly men up in a

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Speaker 3: culture which tells him that being masculine, being a real

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Speaker 3: man is about not needing other people. It's about being independent.

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Speaker 3: And independent means that you're on your own. You can

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Speaker 3: figure it all out on your own. It means you

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Speaker 3: don't if you experience like worry, fear or anxiety, et cetera,

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Speaker 3: you don't display that. So it's about stoicism and it's

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Speaker 3: about about not needing anyone else. And the truth is

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Speaker 3: that's just not that's contrary to human evolution that we

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Speaker 3: all need each other. So I think we want both

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Speaker 3: of our kids, you know, as a boy and a girl,

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Speaker 3: to both understand that it's okay to ask for help,

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Speaker 3: to be to need other people, and it's important to

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Speaker 3: show up for other people because we're all going to

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Speaker 3: need people at different points in our life and that frankly,

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Speaker 3: my life is just better when we're getting through things

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Speaker 3: together versus when we're alone. And even like normal everyday

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Speaker 3: challenges can feel overwhelming.

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Speaker 6: Well said, I love that. Just one last question before

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Speaker 6: we wrap. This has been such a remarkable conversation and

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Speaker 6: just on our four of us, I just want to

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Speaker 6: say thank you. As parents were so inspired by your messages,

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Speaker 6: we're so inspired by your prescriptions. Both of you should

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Speaker 6: have your prescription paths there on a regular basis. You're

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Speaker 6: both brilliant. I want to say thank you as well,

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Speaker 6: just to acknowledge something that you so kindly contributed to

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Speaker 6: the latest book that we all wrote together, which is

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Speaker 6: called What Is My Legacy? And you wrote a very

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Speaker 6: powerful piece in that book, and the book has done

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Speaker 6: extremely well, and we want to say thank you for

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Speaker 6: the contribution and how important the book is in terms

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Speaker 6: of defining one's legacy. The reason I share this is

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Speaker 6: that we look at the root cause of so many

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Speaker 6: issues that are keeping us away from what doctor King

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Speaker 6: called the beloved community, and that concept, the bloved community

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Speaker 6: is such a powerful concept in terms of where we

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Speaker 6: could be going if we so choose or choose as

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Speaker 6: a as a collective to move in that direction. Of course,

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Speaker 6: we're moving in a different direction, and a very opposite direction.

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Speaker 6: And we argue that so much of the challenges of

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Speaker 6: disconnection are causing these challenges, and that disconnection from ourselves,

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Speaker 6: disconnection from others, and disconnection from the world. How does

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Speaker 6: disconnection eventually go from disease to disease? Can you put

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Speaker 6: your prescription paths out and help us understand.

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Speaker 3: Through a few mechanisms. I think one, when we are

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Speaker 3: chronically lonely and disconnection from each other, that actually raises

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Speaker 3: stress levels in our body, and acutely stress can be helpful,

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Speaker 3: right like if a car is coming at you and

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Speaker 3: you suddenly see it, that triggers as stress for response

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Speaker 3: in your body that helps you recruit muscles, your blood

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Speaker 3: gets flowing, your blood pressure goes up, heart rate increases,

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Speaker 3: and all that helps you get out of the wayfast.

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Speaker 3: That's good stress response. The problem with stress is when

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Speaker 3: it's either extreme or prolonged, and when people are experiencing

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Speaker 3: chronic loneliness, for example in isolation. That prolonged stress can

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Speaker 3: then start to damage tissues and blood vessels and lead

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Speaker 3: to increase inflammation in the body, which we know then

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Speaker 3: increases or risk for heart disease, diabetes, and a variety

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Speaker 3: of other chronic illnesses. So that's a biological level, but

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Speaker 3: there's also practical ways in which when we're disconnected from people,

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Speaker 3: we often don't have the help that we need to

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Speaker 3: support healthy behaviors and sometimes to respond to illnesses. So,

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Speaker 3: for example, it's hard to just stay in a workout

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Speaker 3: routine all on your own, or to follow a certain

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Speaker 3: diet without the support of other people. For anyone who's

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Speaker 3: tried and failed, it's starting in your diet or workout routine,

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Speaker 3: and I will raise my hand on that one. Have

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Speaker 3: tried and failed a number of times. The things that

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Speaker 3: have made the difference between failure and success have often

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Speaker 3: been when there've been people around me to do it

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Speaker 3: with or to support me. If you don't have people

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Speaker 3: to help you get medications when you're not able to

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Speaker 3: get them on your own, take you to the doctor

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Speaker 3: to follow up appointments. Remind you, as so many spouses

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Speaker 3: do with each other, to go to the doctor in

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Speaker 3: their first place to get screening for colon cancer, breast cancer,

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Speaker 3: or other conditions. It's harder to get those done, so

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Speaker 3: through a variety of mechanisms, we see that actually social

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Speaker 3: connection is at a practical and biological level is essential

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Speaker 3: for good health.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us. If you enjoy today's conversation, subscribe,

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Speaker 1: share and follow us on at my Legacy movement on

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Speaker 1: social media and YouTube. New episodes drop every Tuesday, with

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Speaker 1: bonus content every Thursday. At its core, this podcast honors

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Speaker 1: doctor King's vision of the beloved community and the power

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Speaker 1: of connection. A legacy Plus studio production distributed by iHeart

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Speaker 1: Media creator and executive producer Suzanne Hayward come executive producer

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Speaker 1: Lisa Lyle. Listen on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts.