1 00:00:15,516 --> 00:00:24,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Right before we start, we're two Financial Times journalists 2 00:00:24,836 --> 00:00:28,796 Speaker 1: trying to work out who rules the porn industry. So 3 00:00:29,516 --> 00:00:37,356 Speaker 1: this show has adult themes. I want to take you 4 00:00:37,476 --> 00:00:42,356 Speaker 1: to a suburban shopping plaza in Ohio. It's nineteen ninety three. 5 00:00:42,956 --> 00:00:46,276 Speaker 1: We're in the middle of America's rust belt. There's a 6 00:00:46,316 --> 00:00:51,436 Speaker 1: two paced store place selling furniture, and tucked in a corner, 7 00:00:51,676 --> 00:00:57,476 Speaker 1: a little company for interactive computer services. I know it 8 00:00:57,516 --> 00:01:02,196 Speaker 1: sounds ridiculous, but if the Internet has roots, they stretch 9 00:01:02,276 --> 00:01:06,996 Speaker 1: to here, to this modest shopping center in Youngstown, Ohio, 10 00:01:07,876 --> 00:01:15,836 Speaker 1: to that corner business. Every social media website you visit today, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, 11 00:01:16,716 --> 00:01:20,716 Speaker 1: these platforms are able to operate in part thanks to them. 12 00:01:20,756 --> 00:01:25,676 Speaker 1: A family run IT business, A family run IT business 13 00:01:25,796 --> 00:01:30,036 Speaker 1: with what was possibly the biggest stash of digital pawn 14 00:01:30,836 --> 00:01:35,596 Speaker 1: in America. Today's power dynamics and porn came from here, 15 00:01:36,476 --> 00:01:39,676 Speaker 1: straight from that family to the most powerful pornographers of 16 00:01:39,756 --> 00:01:42,756 Speaker 1: the twenty first century, the people we've been talking about 17 00:01:42,796 --> 00:01:46,116 Speaker 1: on this show. And you know we told you in 18 00:01:46,116 --> 00:01:49,396 Speaker 1: previous episodes that the masters of the adult tube sites 19 00:01:49,436 --> 00:01:51,876 Speaker 1: were able to get away with making money from other 20 00:01:51,916 --> 00:01:56,636 Speaker 1: people's content. The answer to how lies here and the 21 00:01:56,756 --> 00:02:01,236 Speaker 1: choices of an Ohio family back in the nineties. This family, 22 00:02:01,716 --> 00:02:05,476 Speaker 1: the Hardenbergs, define what it means to moderate content and 23 00:02:05,556 --> 00:02:11,676 Speaker 1: cyberspace and what happens when you go to far. My 24 00:02:11,796 --> 00:02:15,116 Speaker 1: name is Russell Francis Hardenberg, the fourth and I'm a 25 00:02:15,116 --> 00:02:17,996 Speaker 1: sales manager at a car dealership. Russ is one of 26 00:02:18,036 --> 00:02:21,196 Speaker 1: two sons who worked at the IT business back in 27 00:02:21,236 --> 00:02:24,036 Speaker 1: the day. When I first called him and said I 28 00:02:24,076 --> 00:02:27,956 Speaker 1: was a journalist, he slammed the phone down. I'm so pleased. 29 00:02:28,076 --> 00:02:33,396 Speaker 1: I tried again. After some apologetic mumbling, I said to Russ, 30 00:02:33,836 --> 00:02:37,556 Speaker 1: I want to hear how your family changed the history 31 00:02:37,716 --> 00:02:42,076 Speaker 1: of the Internet, and after a pause, he replied, okay, 32 00:02:42,636 --> 00:02:45,716 Speaker 1: call me after work. The Internet was so new that 33 00:02:45,916 --> 00:02:49,276 Speaker 1: there was some question whether you took a book and 34 00:02:49,436 --> 00:02:55,116 Speaker 1: converted it to text where the copyright laws still would 35 00:02:55,116 --> 00:02:57,636 Speaker 1: that apply to that It was just the wild West 36 00:02:57,676 --> 00:03:09,116 Speaker 1: at first, and that's the difference Russ and his family made. 37 00:03:09,876 --> 00:03:13,276 Speaker 1: Their mistakes helped lay the ground rules for an online world. 38 00:03:14,276 --> 00:03:17,316 Speaker 1: Who owns digital media, who has a right to share it, 39 00:03:17,356 --> 00:03:21,556 Speaker 1: and most importantly, how the Mark Zuckerberg's of the world 40 00:03:21,596 --> 00:03:24,916 Speaker 1: can run online platforms and stay off the hook even 41 00:03:24,996 --> 00:03:29,196 Speaker 1: when illegal content is being shared on their sites. I'm 42 00:03:29,196 --> 00:03:33,316 Speaker 1: Patrician Wilson. I'm Alex Barker from Pushkin Industries and The 43 00:03:33,356 --> 00:04:07,516 Speaker 1: Financial Times. This is Hot Money, Act One, a Shared World. 44 00:04:12,436 --> 00:04:15,636 Speaker 1: Later in this episode, Russ and a stepbrother will tell 45 00:04:15,716 --> 00:04:19,436 Speaker 1: their family story pretty much for the first time. It's 46 00:04:19,436 --> 00:04:22,076 Speaker 1: the story that created the ground rules for the modern 47 00:04:22,156 --> 00:04:26,516 Speaker 1: porn industry. But before then, we want to take you 48 00:04:26,596 --> 00:04:31,036 Speaker 1: further back in history, to the nineteen eighties, the moment 49 00:04:31,116 --> 00:04:35,316 Speaker 1: that online porn first came into being. Let's meet one 50 00:04:35,396 --> 00:04:40,316 Speaker 1: of the world's first digital pronographers. His name is Dan Lewis. 51 00:04:40,996 --> 00:04:48,436 Speaker 1: So around nineteen eighty I bought my first personal computer. 52 00:04:48,556 --> 00:04:52,396 Speaker 1: It was a Radio Shack TRSA D Model one. It 53 00:04:52,436 --> 00:04:55,196 Speaker 1: was pretty pretty exciting at the time. Your storage device 54 00:04:55,276 --> 00:04:58,556 Speaker 1: was a cassette tape recorder. The TRSA D the biggest 55 00:04:58,636 --> 00:05:03,556 Speaker 1: name in little computers only and Radio Shack attending company. 56 00:05:05,636 --> 00:05:08,556 Speaker 1: As far as we can work out, Dan wasn't just 57 00:05:08,636 --> 00:05:12,516 Speaker 1: one of the first online pornographers, he was possibly the 58 00:05:12,596 --> 00:05:15,556 Speaker 1: first one to actually turn a profit from it. He's 59 00:05:15,596 --> 00:05:18,716 Speaker 1: a New Yorker and he looks like a regular boomer. 60 00:05:19,036 --> 00:05:23,636 Speaker 1: Beard classes a friendly uncle type. He wasn't easy to find. 61 00:05:23,796 --> 00:05:28,276 Speaker 1: By the way, Dan Lewis is his cover name. Yes, 62 00:05:28,836 --> 00:05:32,596 Speaker 1: another guy with a cover name. Out of desperation, I 63 00:05:32,716 --> 00:05:35,876 Speaker 1: tried an email address from an advert for something called 64 00:05:35,876 --> 00:05:39,636 Speaker 1: the bulletin board. It was from nineteen ninety four, but 65 00:05:39,796 --> 00:05:44,756 Speaker 1: somehow it worked. You could dial up bulletin boards and 66 00:05:45,036 --> 00:05:49,876 Speaker 1: exchange messages with people and you know, find out some 67 00:05:49,956 --> 00:05:54,076 Speaker 1: technical information. Now he might have heard of arper net 68 00:05:54,116 --> 00:05:57,956 Speaker 1: and usenet, the early ways that academics and military types 69 00:05:58,196 --> 00:06:02,516 Speaker 1: communicated online. Bullets and boards used a similar technology, but 70 00:06:02,676 --> 00:06:05,796 Speaker 1: they were for the private world, not just public institutions. 71 00:06:06,196 --> 00:06:09,676 Speaker 1: Anybody could use them. Dan's computer was in his bedroom 72 00:06:09,796 --> 00:06:13,836 Speaker 1: in Queens. The equipment wasn't cheap, and in Dan's case, 73 00:06:14,236 --> 00:06:18,116 Speaker 1: now university or government was paying the bills. He would 74 00:06:18,116 --> 00:06:20,516 Speaker 1: pick up the chunky telephone handset and plug it into 75 00:06:20,516 --> 00:06:24,716 Speaker 1: an even bigger box the modem. Through the modem, he 76 00:06:24,716 --> 00:06:27,756 Speaker 1: would then dial another computer in some far off places, 77 00:06:28,276 --> 00:06:31,996 Speaker 1: the bulletin Board system or BBS. It was a shared 78 00:06:32,036 --> 00:06:38,516 Speaker 1: world games, basic software, conspiracy theories, bad jokes. If you 79 00:06:38,596 --> 00:06:41,356 Speaker 1: knew which board to dial up and you could master 80 00:06:41,436 --> 00:06:46,356 Speaker 1: the clunky tech, it was all there and young Dan. 81 00:06:46,756 --> 00:06:49,556 Speaker 1: He was in his early twenties. Den he got more 82 00:06:49,556 --> 00:06:52,796 Speaker 1: and more obsessed. He was dialing up at eleven o'clock 83 00:06:52,796 --> 00:06:55,996 Speaker 1: at night to keep his meteoric phone bills down. He 84 00:06:56,116 --> 00:07:01,116 Speaker 1: was broken, barely scraping together money for rent. So I 85 00:07:01,236 --> 00:07:04,756 Speaker 1: started trying to think about is there a way I 86 00:07:04,876 --> 00:07:10,196 Speaker 1: could leverage this and supplement my income? Well, what other 87 00:07:10,316 --> 00:07:15,596 Speaker 1: kinds of BBS related services might people pay for? And 88 00:07:15,796 --> 00:07:19,196 Speaker 1: decided that, you know what, the only thing people will 89 00:07:19,276 --> 00:07:23,276 Speaker 1: pay for is sex. People are horny, people are purian. 90 00:07:23,436 --> 00:07:28,756 Speaker 1: People want to see images of other naked people, or 91 00:07:28,796 --> 00:07:32,596 Speaker 1: they want to see them engage in activities that they 92 00:07:32,636 --> 00:07:35,756 Speaker 1: can't try now, or want it try or have it tried. 93 00:07:35,756 --> 00:07:39,356 Speaker 1: It's just human nature. Back in nineteen eighty four, a 94 00:07:39,436 --> 00:07:44,076 Speaker 1: bulletin board interface just had text bright neon green text, 95 00:07:44,836 --> 00:07:48,996 Speaker 1: but you could download simple images, games, that kind of stuff. 96 00:07:49,796 --> 00:07:53,756 Speaker 1: Dan's idea was to specialize. He wanted to launch a 97 00:07:53,836 --> 00:07:59,236 Speaker 1: BBS dedicated to adult stuff, an erotic platform for the uninhabited. 98 00:08:00,516 --> 00:08:04,436 Speaker 1: The cool started rolling in with hindsight. The technology was 99 00:08:04,596 --> 00:08:10,276 Speaker 1: laughably basic. Dance system aislenet was running it one thousand, 100 00:08:10,476 --> 00:08:15,756 Speaker 1: two hundred bits per second, no kill abits, no megabits, 101 00:08:15,756 --> 00:08:19,996 Speaker 1: just bits. So how did it work? Well, you'd sit 102 00:08:20,036 --> 00:08:23,716 Speaker 1: down at your computer, so you'd go to your dialing list. Okay, 103 00:08:23,716 --> 00:08:25,916 Speaker 1: which bbs do I want to call? All right, let's 104 00:08:25,916 --> 00:08:28,676 Speaker 1: call this. When you click on it, and you'll hear 105 00:08:28,756 --> 00:08:35,916 Speaker 1: Procom dialing the modem. Then it'll ring and the modem 106 00:08:35,956 --> 00:08:38,716 Speaker 1: will answer. If you haven't heard what a modem sounds like, 107 00:08:38,836 --> 00:08:42,556 Speaker 1: it sounds a little bit like a fax tone. And 108 00:08:42,836 --> 00:08:45,556 Speaker 1: you're connected. So you'd get a welcome screen, and then 109 00:08:45,556 --> 00:08:49,436 Speaker 1: you might get a list of subcategories of files. It's okay, 110 00:08:49,476 --> 00:08:53,076 Speaker 1: so you click on the adult section, and then you 111 00:08:53,156 --> 00:08:58,436 Speaker 1: might get another sub menu of women, men, women, and men, 112 00:08:58,836 --> 00:09:02,116 Speaker 1: and you pick what you want and it'll download. Now 113 00:09:02,156 --> 00:09:04,436 Speaker 1: the fun begins, ing bing bing, bing bing, and it 114 00:09:04,516 --> 00:09:07,916 Speaker 1: ends up on your computer. Then you get to look 115 00:09:07,956 --> 00:09:12,156 Speaker 1: at your picture. Isn't that easy? You had to be 116 00:09:12,196 --> 00:09:17,796 Speaker 1: patient that bing bing bing took minutes, not seconds, But 117 00:09:18,356 --> 00:09:22,876 Speaker 1: for porn, people were willing to wait and they would 118 00:09:22,876 --> 00:09:27,676 Speaker 1: pay for it. At first, Dan charged ten dollars to subscribers. 119 00:09:28,276 --> 00:09:31,316 Speaker 1: Then I went to forty five a year. The checks 120 00:09:31,356 --> 00:09:34,636 Speaker 1: were being mailed to him in the post. It didn't 121 00:09:34,676 --> 00:09:37,436 Speaker 1: take long until Dan was making as much from his 122 00:09:37,516 --> 00:09:40,316 Speaker 1: adult side as he was from his day job, and 123 00:09:40,396 --> 00:09:42,916 Speaker 1: I mean it was tremendous. Those were the best years. 124 00:09:43,196 --> 00:09:47,676 Speaker 1: Those were absolutely the best years. You know what's really 125 00:09:47,716 --> 00:09:51,756 Speaker 1: striking about that time, pioneers like Dan were on a 126 00:09:51,836 --> 00:09:55,036 Speaker 1: tiny scale revealing what was about to hit us, all 127 00:09:55,716 --> 00:10:00,276 Speaker 1: dirty pictures, software, even the written word. If digital goods 128 00:10:00,276 --> 00:10:04,196 Speaker 1: could be copied, they would be copied NonStop and shared 129 00:10:04,236 --> 00:10:07,756 Speaker 1: far and wide. And the law, well, as we'll tell 130 00:10:07,796 --> 00:10:11,516 Speaker 1: you in a bit, caught up. Yet in this legal 131 00:10:11,596 --> 00:10:15,236 Speaker 1: no man's land, Dan could become a pornographer of sorts, 132 00:10:15,636 --> 00:10:19,236 Speaker 1: all from his bedroom in Queens without ever having taken 133 00:10:19,236 --> 00:10:22,316 Speaker 1: a photo or set foot on a porn set. Even 134 00:10:22,356 --> 00:10:25,196 Speaker 1: in the age of bulletin boards, people were beginning to 135 00:10:25,236 --> 00:10:30,156 Speaker 1: realize the implications. Dan's operation was relatively modest, just a 136 00:10:30,156 --> 00:10:34,876 Speaker 1: few telephone lines. He kept his head down. But some 137 00:10:34,956 --> 00:10:39,116 Speaker 1: other operators were not so shy, operators like Rusty and 138 00:10:39,436 --> 00:10:43,116 Speaker 1: Edie Hardenberg. Rusty and Edy was really big and they 139 00:10:43,196 --> 00:10:46,156 Speaker 1: had I don't even know how many phone lines they had, 140 00:10:46,236 --> 00:10:50,316 Speaker 1: and obviously invested a lot of money and their objective 141 00:10:50,476 --> 00:10:55,236 Speaker 1: clearly was to make their living off this completely Rusty 142 00:10:55,276 --> 00:10:58,676 Speaker 1: and edis bulletin board veterans talk of them with a 143 00:10:58,716 --> 00:11:02,556 Speaker 1: wistful air, and let me give you a clue. Their 144 00:11:02,556 --> 00:11:06,316 Speaker 1: office was in Youngstown, Ohio, in a little strip mall 145 00:11:06,836 --> 00:11:10,276 Speaker 1: next to a two pay stall. Rusty Needy were the 146 00:11:10,396 --> 00:11:13,756 Speaker 1: father and stepmother of Russ, the guy we heard from 147 00:11:13,796 --> 00:11:17,036 Speaker 1: earlier in the show. They were the family who laid 148 00:11:17,076 --> 00:11:27,236 Speaker 1: the rules for the way the internet works today. To 149 00:11:27,356 --> 00:11:31,756 Speaker 1: take a look at this advert I found for Rusty 150 00:11:31,796 --> 00:11:37,756 Speaker 1: and Needs from a magazine in the early nineties. Well, 151 00:11:37,756 --> 00:11:40,756 Speaker 1: so I'm looking at two owls they snuggled up wing 152 00:11:40,836 --> 00:11:45,076 Speaker 1: to wing. Some text here. It says we are the 153 00:11:45,116 --> 00:11:48,556 Speaker 1: friendliest bbs in the world. Our name says at all. 154 00:11:49,236 --> 00:11:51,316 Speaker 1: Ed and I are a couple of burnouts from the 155 00:11:51,436 --> 00:11:54,836 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. We didn't like rules, Dan, and we don't. 156 00:11:54,916 --> 00:11:58,316 Speaker 1: Now come on in and relax. You'll be among friends. 157 00:11:59,076 --> 00:12:02,516 Speaker 1: It's a great copy, isn't it. It's fantastic. You know, 158 00:12:02,676 --> 00:12:06,636 Speaker 1: this was the Rusty and Edy brand. It was great marketing. 159 00:12:06,876 --> 00:12:10,196 Speaker 1: It worked. I mean they were the Ben and Jerry's 160 00:12:10,476 --> 00:12:15,236 Speaker 1: of nineteen eighties home computing. You reached their bulletin board 161 00:12:15,516 --> 00:12:20,716 Speaker 1: and there was in big green letters, first rule, have fun, 162 00:12:21,036 --> 00:12:25,356 Speaker 1: second rule, no more rules and exactly and you know 163 00:12:25,436 --> 00:12:29,396 Speaker 1: they would not have thought of themselves as pornographers, not 164 00:12:29,436 --> 00:12:34,556 Speaker 1: for a second, but almost by accident, they helped define 165 00:12:34,956 --> 00:12:39,716 Speaker 1: what paun would become in an online age. So did 166 00:12:39,716 --> 00:12:43,476 Speaker 1: you manage to speak to them? Rusty passed a few 167 00:12:43,556 --> 00:12:46,236 Speaker 1: years ago, and I would loved to have spoken to him, 168 00:12:46,716 --> 00:12:50,236 Speaker 1: but I did reach Ed and we had an amazing conversation. 169 00:12:50,276 --> 00:12:53,756 Speaker 1: But talking about Rusty and Ed's it just brought back 170 00:12:53,796 --> 00:12:57,916 Speaker 1: too many memories for her, so she didn't want to 171 00:12:57,916 --> 00:13:00,476 Speaker 1: talk on tape, and instead she put me in touch 172 00:13:00,516 --> 00:13:04,916 Speaker 1: with her son, Sean McFarland, and he's an Army vet. 173 00:13:05,436 --> 00:13:09,756 Speaker 1: He runs a chain of convenience stores, and we spoke 174 00:13:09,796 --> 00:13:13,556 Speaker 1: to him from a garage that looked more like an 175 00:13:13,596 --> 00:13:17,636 Speaker 1: aircraft hanger. Have you got a helicopter, just a little one? Yeah? Yeah, 176 00:13:17,836 --> 00:13:20,756 Speaker 1: that's quite dead in the army. So my son and 177 00:13:20,796 --> 00:13:23,396 Speaker 1: I like to fly around, go have a burger and 178 00:13:23,476 --> 00:13:27,516 Speaker 1: a pot. Sean didn't always run convenience stores and zip 179 00:13:27,516 --> 00:13:31,276 Speaker 1: around in a helicopter growing up. He helps his family 180 00:13:31,436 --> 00:13:37,276 Speaker 1: run their business. I built the computers in I networked 181 00:13:37,316 --> 00:13:41,836 Speaker 1: and made him talk to each other. He remembers his stepfather, Rusty, 182 00:13:41,916 --> 00:13:46,396 Speaker 1: as a man of outsized passions. Any hobby would become industry. 183 00:13:46,876 --> 00:13:50,316 Speaker 1: Their house would fill with cigars or fish tanks. There 184 00:13:50,316 --> 00:13:54,916 Speaker 1: were fifteen at one point, or big bulky computers, dozens 185 00:13:54,956 --> 00:13:59,116 Speaker 1: of them. Rusty actually wasn't an old, burned out hippie. 186 00:13:59,676 --> 00:14:03,556 Speaker 1: He was a retired insurance manager and a lifelong libertarian. 187 00:14:05,196 --> 00:14:09,116 Speaker 1: He hated being told what to do, not just by government, 188 00:14:09,516 --> 00:14:13,916 Speaker 1: but by anyone. Frankly, so when he started visiting bulletin boards. 189 00:14:14,036 --> 00:14:17,916 Speaker 1: You can guess what happened next. So he goes, why 190 00:14:17,916 --> 00:14:21,676 Speaker 1: don't I start my own with no rules? So he 191 00:14:21,796 --> 00:14:25,316 Speaker 1: wanted no rolls are free for all, do whatever you 192 00:14:25,356 --> 00:14:28,996 Speaker 1: wanted to do. He wasn't the only one. A lot 193 00:14:29,036 --> 00:14:31,676 Speaker 1: of bulletin board folks were making up rules on the go. 194 00:14:33,076 --> 00:14:36,716 Speaker 1: Nobody really knew who owned a digital copy of a 195 00:14:36,716 --> 00:14:40,396 Speaker 1: physical image or a piece of text. A lot of 196 00:14:40,396 --> 00:14:45,476 Speaker 1: them didn't care. Now, Russ, the hardenburg Son who I 197 00:14:45,556 --> 00:14:47,796 Speaker 1: talked to at the beginning of the show, the one 198 00:14:47,836 --> 00:14:50,956 Speaker 1: who put the phone down on me. Russ was helping 199 00:14:50,956 --> 00:14:54,276 Speaker 1: his father Rusty on the software side and handling the 200 00:14:54,316 --> 00:14:59,596 Speaker 1: fallout from having no rules. When did adult materials start right? 201 00:14:59,636 --> 00:15:02,876 Speaker 1: From the get go, so at first it was just 202 00:15:03,716 --> 00:15:08,316 Speaker 1: grany scanned photographs, and then they came up with short 203 00:15:08,436 --> 00:15:15,036 Speaker 1: little which were thirty second mini movies. Did RUSS have 204 00:15:15,076 --> 00:15:19,956 Speaker 1: any qualms about having adult content on the system, Not really. 205 00:15:20,116 --> 00:15:23,276 Speaker 1: I mean it's a libertarian yet we're not hurting anybody. 206 00:15:23,276 --> 00:15:27,636 Speaker 1: There are adults. Some came for the game's sex chat 207 00:15:27,676 --> 00:15:31,156 Speaker 1: and dating. Edy told us that a few people got 208 00:15:31,196 --> 00:15:34,636 Speaker 1: married after meeting in their forums, but for others well. 209 00:15:35,636 --> 00:15:39,396 Speaker 1: Rusty and Edy amassed one of the world's biggest collections 210 00:15:39,476 --> 00:15:43,276 Speaker 1: of digital porn. By nineteen ninety three, Rusty and Needy 211 00:15:43,316 --> 00:15:46,436 Speaker 1: had hosted roughly three and a half million calls in total, 212 00:15:46,756 --> 00:15:50,636 Speaker 1: around four thousand on any given day. Calls came in 213 00:15:50,716 --> 00:15:55,156 Speaker 1: from all over the world, Britain, Saudi Arabia, Japan, and 214 00:15:55,196 --> 00:15:57,876 Speaker 1: as the business grew, Rusty and Needy had to find 215 00:15:57,916 --> 00:16:02,116 Speaker 1: space for dozens of computers. First the equipment filled the 216 00:16:02,156 --> 00:16:06,236 Speaker 1: bedroom of Rusty's two room apartment, then the hall, then 217 00:16:06,276 --> 00:16:10,476 Speaker 1: the entire basement of their new home. The servers produced 218 00:16:10,556 --> 00:16:14,276 Speaker 1: so much heat Rusty installed a four ton air conditioner 219 00:16:14,756 --> 00:16:17,076 Speaker 1: and it was still like a sauna. We had working 220 00:16:17,116 --> 00:16:18,956 Speaker 1: even in a winner in shorts and a fu shirt. 221 00:16:19,356 --> 00:16:23,036 Speaker 1: It was just hot. I mean he was a good businessman. 222 00:16:23,436 --> 00:16:24,756 Speaker 1: I mean did he make a lot of money out 223 00:16:24,796 --> 00:16:29,596 Speaker 1: of this? Oh? Yeah, he did very well. Those overheated 224 00:16:29,636 --> 00:16:34,476 Speaker 1: servers hosted around nineteen gigabytes of data. These days you 225 00:16:34,556 --> 00:16:37,436 Speaker 1: carry ten times that data in your pocket. But back 226 00:16:37,436 --> 00:16:41,956 Speaker 1: then this was like Aladdin's Cave. It was getting attention. 227 00:16:42,716 --> 00:16:47,076 Speaker 1: Some commercial software makers got upset, as did some porn barrens, 228 00:16:47,316 --> 00:16:58,196 Speaker 1: and then there was the FBI Act too, the dangers 229 00:16:58,316 --> 00:17:03,476 Speaker 1: of moderation. So far, the Rusty and Needy story is 230 00:17:03,476 --> 00:17:08,236 Speaker 1: a sort of libertarian dream. An entrepreneurial family creates an 231 00:17:08,236 --> 00:17:11,996 Speaker 1: online space with no rules and builds it into a 232 00:17:12,036 --> 00:17:16,756 Speaker 1: successful family business. Now we come to the part of 233 00:17:16,756 --> 00:17:20,596 Speaker 1: the story where the government strikes back. It's a moment 234 00:17:20,716 --> 00:17:25,396 Speaker 1: so dramatic that even three decades later, Edie couldn't bear 235 00:17:25,476 --> 00:17:29,116 Speaker 1: to talk about it. The night at the raid, it 236 00:17:29,196 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 1: was my sister's wedding day, and I think they planned 237 00:17:33,316 --> 00:17:35,676 Speaker 1: it that way. So we went at be home. We 238 00:17:35,676 --> 00:17:39,636 Speaker 1: were all at the reception and my stepbrother Sean had 239 00:17:39,676 --> 00:17:41,556 Speaker 1: to go back to the house to get something. I 240 00:17:41,676 --> 00:17:45,236 Speaker 1: was coming home with my girlfriend. I like pulling the 241 00:17:45,316 --> 00:17:47,916 Speaker 1: driver and I go, WHOA, what's all these cards still 242 00:17:47,956 --> 00:17:50,316 Speaker 1: in here? And then I walked up to the garage 243 00:17:50,356 --> 00:17:53,276 Speaker 1: and bunch of guys with the FBI jacket song came 244 00:17:53,316 --> 00:17:55,716 Speaker 1: and asked me who I was. They kicked the door 245 00:17:55,836 --> 00:18:00,236 Speaker 1: in and they came in all different directions. Was gigantic. 246 00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:03,996 Speaker 1: They had guns and they seized everything. They took every computer, 247 00:18:04,156 --> 00:18:07,596 Speaker 1: every server, everything out of the house. They took all 248 00:18:07,596 --> 00:18:10,156 Speaker 1: our records, everything we had, they took it all. My 249 00:18:10,236 --> 00:18:14,996 Speaker 1: father was terrified. They weren't alleged they had legally distributed 250 00:18:15,036 --> 00:18:18,516 Speaker 1: software without permission of the copyright owners, but there was 251 00:18:18,556 --> 00:18:22,316 Speaker 1: more to it than that. By the early nineties, Congress 252 00:18:22,316 --> 00:18:25,036 Speaker 1: and the FBI had woken up to the digital economy. 253 00:18:25,876 --> 00:18:30,516 Speaker 1: The press was raising alarm about cyber porn. The FBI 254 00:18:30,596 --> 00:18:35,636 Speaker 1: wanted to set some boundaries. The government seize the business 255 00:18:35,676 --> 00:18:39,116 Speaker 1: just because they wanted to look around and see if 256 00:18:39,116 --> 00:18:42,116 Speaker 1: we were doing anything wrong. For two and a half years, 257 00:18:42,116 --> 00:18:46,076 Speaker 1: they took a man's business, all his hardware. You can 258 00:18:46,116 --> 00:18:49,836 Speaker 1: probably tell from Russ's voice the memories are still raw 259 00:18:49,956 --> 00:18:53,276 Speaker 1: for the family. It's the reason Edie wouldn't speak to us. 260 00:18:53,516 --> 00:18:56,276 Speaker 1: Just thinking back to that day gave her sleepless nights. 261 00:18:56,356 --> 00:18:57,836 Speaker 1: It was a little point in her life too. I 262 00:18:57,876 --> 00:19:01,276 Speaker 1: mean they literally thought they were going to prison. And 263 00:19:01,356 --> 00:19:02,956 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't care how much money you have, 264 00:19:03,836 --> 00:19:08,676 Speaker 1: you can't fight Uncle Sam. He's got endless money. Somehow, 265 00:19:08,796 --> 00:19:11,596 Speaker 1: Russ Do you Need's bulletin Board got back online after 266 00:19:11,636 --> 00:19:15,156 Speaker 1: the FBI swooped. They had backups, they bought new computers, 267 00:19:15,476 --> 00:19:18,476 Speaker 1: and they had the shopping plaza office. The thing is, 268 00:19:19,116 --> 00:19:22,316 Speaker 1: there was a second punch, another crisis for the family, 269 00:19:23,156 --> 00:19:26,076 Speaker 1: one that actually helped create the internet we have today. 270 00:19:26,716 --> 00:19:29,676 Speaker 1: It came a few months after the raid, a lawsuit 271 00:19:30,076 --> 00:19:34,596 Speaker 1: straight from Hugh Hefner's mansion. The Playboy founder had realized 272 00:19:34,636 --> 00:19:38,636 Speaker 1: that his pictures were being shared online digital copies, and 273 00:19:38,756 --> 00:19:42,356 Speaker 1: he wasn't being paid, so the he decided to fight back. 274 00:19:43,436 --> 00:19:46,876 Speaker 1: He sent a female staffer on an undercover mission. She 275 00:19:47,036 --> 00:19:49,996 Speaker 1: signed up to Rusty's bulletin Board under a fake name, 276 00:19:50,636 --> 00:19:54,596 Speaker 1: Bob Campbell, and don't we love fake names on this podcast. 277 00:19:55,476 --> 00:20:01,356 Speaker 1: Her mission to hunt down copied Playboy picks. You gotta remember, 278 00:20:01,396 --> 00:20:04,956 Speaker 1: we had maybe one hundred to two hundred thousand images 279 00:20:04,996 --> 00:20:09,356 Speaker 1: on our servers, and I think they found five. Remember 280 00:20:09,396 --> 00:20:14,196 Speaker 1: which pictures they were? They said, Bo Derek. Playboy actually 281 00:20:14,276 --> 00:20:17,036 Speaker 1: presented around twenty images to the court, but it was 282 00:20:17,076 --> 00:20:20,676 Speaker 1: still a tiny fraction of the pictures available. I like 283 00:20:20,836 --> 00:20:23,596 Speaker 1: to think they were all of bow Derek. She was 284 00:20:23,636 --> 00:20:26,396 Speaker 1: the actress from the movie ten cast in the role 285 00:20:26,436 --> 00:20:29,556 Speaker 1: of the Perfect Woman. Dudley Moore dreamed of her bouncing 286 00:20:29,596 --> 00:20:33,396 Speaker 1: towards him on a beach. Now. Even before the lawsuit, 287 00:20:33,836 --> 00:20:37,636 Speaker 1: Rusty had a hunch Playboy in particular would come for 288 00:20:37,756 --> 00:20:41,436 Speaker 1: him someday, so he made his son Russ, screen every 289 00:20:41,556 --> 00:20:44,596 Speaker 1: uploaded image. He was a gatekeeper, one of the first 290 00:20:44,636 --> 00:20:48,436 Speaker 1: online moderators, and he told him to keep a particular 291 00:20:48,476 --> 00:20:52,836 Speaker 1: eye out for Playboy images. Rusty even commissioned software to 292 00:20:52,876 --> 00:20:55,956 Speaker 1: find Playboy picks and take them down. For the pictures 293 00:20:55,956 --> 00:21:01,436 Speaker 1: of bow Derek, they somehow slipped through. Rusty's case settled. 294 00:21:01,796 --> 00:21:06,196 Speaker 1: His insurance company covered the settlement amount, but this case 295 00:21:06,836 --> 00:21:12,076 Speaker 1: was remembered for something else. No would digitalized information. Did 296 00:21:12,076 --> 00:21:15,556 Speaker 1: the copyrights still stand for print information? That was a 297 00:21:15,596 --> 00:21:20,076 Speaker 1: gray area, but the Playboy ruling kind of started the 298 00:21:20,836 --> 00:21:25,836 Speaker 1: if it's digitalized, it's still under copyright rule. The judge 299 00:21:25,956 --> 00:21:29,556 Speaker 1: ruled against Rusty precisely because he had asked his son 300 00:21:29,636 --> 00:21:34,036 Speaker 1: to moderate the uploads by being responsible. By screening every file, 301 00:21:34,596 --> 00:21:38,636 Speaker 1: Rusty became liable. Suddenly he was a publisher, not just 302 00:21:38,676 --> 00:21:41,516 Speaker 1: a bulletin board. The thing Rusty did to protect the 303 00:21:41,556 --> 00:21:46,476 Speaker 1: family business actually left them exposed. We didn't think that 304 00:21:46,876 --> 00:21:49,396 Speaker 1: we would lose because the one thing my father was 305 00:21:49,796 --> 00:21:54,276 Speaker 1: against was having any pictures of Playboy on our bbs. 306 00:21:54,316 --> 00:22:01,396 Speaker 1: That was specifically tried for years to keep anything they 307 00:22:01,436 --> 00:22:04,716 Speaker 1: had to do with Playboy off of our bbs. That's 308 00:22:04,796 --> 00:22:08,076 Speaker 1: the funny thing about it. Anyway, I guess it's funny. 309 00:22:08,116 --> 00:22:11,036 Speaker 1: But we thought we had done our due diligence. But 310 00:22:11,916 --> 00:22:16,276 Speaker 1: evidently the courts start differently. The moderation was their downfall. 311 00:22:16,676 --> 00:22:19,756 Speaker 1: If Rusty hadn't checked a thing the people uploading Boat 312 00:22:19,756 --> 00:22:22,636 Speaker 1: Derek pictures, they would have been on the hook to Playboy, 313 00:22:23,076 --> 00:22:27,356 Speaker 1: not Rusty. This became an important ruling for digital media. 314 00:22:27,516 --> 00:22:30,116 Speaker 1: Who owns it, who has a right to share it? 315 00:22:30,756 --> 00:22:35,116 Speaker 1: Most importantly, can the person running the platform be held liable? 316 00:22:36,316 --> 00:22:39,676 Speaker 1: When A and M Records and half the US music 317 00:22:39,716 --> 00:22:44,796 Speaker 1: industry sued file sharing site Napster in two thousand, lawyers 318 00:22:44,796 --> 00:22:49,796 Speaker 1: in that courtroom reciting Playboy versus Russ Hardenburg, the case 319 00:22:49,836 --> 00:22:54,956 Speaker 1: against rusty and edy. It's so strange to think that 320 00:22:54,996 --> 00:22:57,796 Speaker 1: the road rules of the Internet were partly laid down 321 00:22:57,996 --> 00:23:01,196 Speaker 1: in a hot basement in suburban Ohio, a hot basement 322 00:23:01,316 --> 00:23:05,556 Speaker 1: stacked full the computers, tangled cables, and grainy gifts of pawn. 323 00:23:07,276 --> 00:23:09,836 Speaker 1: These road rules would be one hell of an important 324 00:23:09,916 --> 00:23:13,556 Speaker 1: lesson for the next generation of Internet entrepreneurs, for Mark 325 00:23:13,636 --> 00:23:18,756 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg or Jack Dusey, but also online pornographers like Fabian 326 00:23:18,796 --> 00:23:21,316 Speaker 1: Tilman and Bernt berg Meyer. If it was not for 327 00:23:21,436 --> 00:23:25,596 Speaker 1: rusty and needy, Pornhub might be run very differently. You 328 00:23:25,636 --> 00:23:28,636 Speaker 1: can hear the same debate today. You might have heard 329 00:23:28,636 --> 00:23:32,276 Speaker 1: of big text favorite laws to Digital Millennium Copyright Act 330 00:23:32,356 --> 00:23:36,516 Speaker 1: and Section two thirty of the Communications Decency Act. Together 331 00:23:37,036 --> 00:23:40,196 Speaker 1: they effectively give immunity to platforms like Google or Facebook. 332 00:23:40,356 --> 00:23:42,436 Speaker 1: It is a tiny law that's had a huge impact 333 00:23:42,436 --> 00:23:44,556 Speaker 1: on the Internet, as we know at Section two thirty 334 00:23:44,596 --> 00:23:47,596 Speaker 1: of the Communications Decency Act. Lawmakers on both sides of 335 00:23:47,596 --> 00:23:49,356 Speaker 1: the I want to change the way the law works, 336 00:23:49,476 --> 00:23:53,836 Speaker 1: affecting how content is moderated online. Companies aren't liable for 337 00:23:53,916 --> 00:23:57,436 Speaker 1: what people say or share on their sites, even if 338 00:23:57,436 --> 00:24:00,556 Speaker 1: it is illegal. Some critics of the law say that 339 00:24:00,636 --> 00:24:05,556 Speaker 1: it leaves social media free to ignore lies, hoaxes, and 340 00:24:05,716 --> 00:24:09,636 Speaker 1: slander that can wreck the lives of innocent people. In 341 00:24:09,716 --> 00:24:12,996 Speaker 1: the Playboy case against Rusty and Needy, it paved a 342 00:24:13,076 --> 00:24:17,596 Speaker 1: way for that protection on screening and moderation. It's set 343 00:24:17,636 --> 00:24:23,076 Speaker 1: the legal standard for online media. The big lesson don't 344 00:24:23,076 --> 00:24:27,076 Speaker 1: screen content rigorously. It leaves you on the hook. Just 345 00:24:27,196 --> 00:24:33,236 Speaker 1: deal with the complaints. Rusty's family still feels pretty sore. 346 00:24:33,676 --> 00:24:38,316 Speaker 1: They were raided, dragged through the courts, punished for moderating. 347 00:24:38,956 --> 00:24:43,396 Speaker 1: The whole FBI ordeal lasted two years without a charge 348 00:24:43,596 --> 00:24:47,676 Speaker 1: being filed. And all those boderic pictures you can find 349 00:24:47,676 --> 00:24:53,516 Speaker 1: them on countless sites these days. So I did it work? Basically, 350 00:24:53,596 --> 00:24:57,316 Speaker 1: you can get right now everything we had on there. 351 00:24:57,716 --> 00:25:01,156 Speaker 1: If you log in a major search engine and hit image, 352 00:25:01,196 --> 00:25:03,516 Speaker 1: you can get the same thing. Now, now are they 353 00:25:03,556 --> 00:25:08,756 Speaker 1: suing them? The BBS era didn't last for long. By 354 00:25:08,836 --> 00:25:12,436 Speaker 1: nine ninety five, it had been pretty much blown away 355 00:25:12,516 --> 00:25:16,796 Speaker 1: by the popularity of AOL and the Worldwide Web. That 356 00:25:17,316 --> 00:25:21,036 Speaker 1: opened a truly libertine era for the Internet and porn, 357 00:25:21,756 --> 00:25:26,356 Speaker 1: the Great Digital Awakening. After the Break, We'll meet one 358 00:25:26,396 --> 00:25:37,676 Speaker 1: of its stars. Act three, A web of wonder. Meet 359 00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:42,676 Speaker 1: Madeline Altman. She's talking from her home in Massachusetts, designed 360 00:25:42,716 --> 00:25:46,156 Speaker 1: by the founder of the Bauhaus movement. Out of the window, 361 00:25:46,196 --> 00:25:49,316 Speaker 1: I can see fields rolling into the distance. It's a 362 00:25:49,356 --> 00:25:54,876 Speaker 1: picture of New England tranquility. Was it very intimate? I mean, 363 00:25:54,916 --> 00:25:56,996 Speaker 1: oh my god, I can sometimes I came like five 364 00:25:57,076 --> 00:25:59,876 Speaker 1: six times a day. I swearked to god, Alex was 365 00:25:59,956 --> 00:26:03,436 Speaker 1: so hot hot. You're in a private booth and the 366 00:26:03,436 --> 00:26:05,636 Speaker 1: guys are telling you how gorgeous they are and how 367 00:26:05,796 --> 00:26:10,556 Speaker 1: sexy you are, and you're like, great, loving this, you know. 368 00:26:11,116 --> 00:26:14,796 Speaker 1: Madeline is in her late fifties. She has two master's degrees, 369 00:26:15,116 --> 00:26:18,316 Speaker 1: she speaks five languages, and back in nineteen ninety five, 370 00:26:18,836 --> 00:26:21,556 Speaker 1: she was one of the first people to create, host 371 00:26:21,676 --> 00:26:25,516 Speaker 1: and run a live video conferencing site. It just happens 372 00:26:25,556 --> 00:26:30,356 Speaker 1: she did it while performing nude. Live video is something 373 00:26:30,436 --> 00:26:32,556 Speaker 1: many of us use every day for work. It's one 374 00:26:32,556 --> 00:26:35,396 Speaker 1: of the wonders of the Internet. Madeline's business was the 375 00:26:35,636 --> 00:26:39,036 Speaker 1: not safe for work kind. Today they're called cam sites 376 00:26:39,076 --> 00:26:42,036 Speaker 1: and they're a great money spinner for pawn. Live video 377 00:26:42,116 --> 00:26:45,636 Speaker 1: is an experience that can't be copied and shared. Madeline 378 00:26:45,676 --> 00:26:48,196 Speaker 1: stands out because she was doing this. In nineteen ninety five, 379 00:26:48,916 --> 00:26:51,596 Speaker 1: the World Wide Web had launched, but none of the 380 00:26:51,676 --> 00:26:55,316 Speaker 1: things we take for granted online were there. Search engines, 381 00:26:55,596 --> 00:27:00,996 Speaker 1: video streaming, online payments. Everything was an experiment. Nobody had 382 00:27:01,036 --> 00:27:03,996 Speaker 1: worked out what the Internet was for or how it 383 00:27:04,036 --> 00:27:08,116 Speaker 1: could be turned into serious money. In other words, nobody 384 00:27:08,236 --> 00:27:12,476 Speaker 1: ruled cyberspe And this is where porn had its moment, 385 00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:16,516 Speaker 1: when people like Madeline became the first colonizers of this 386 00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:20,476 Speaker 1: online world. To understand Madeleine's journey, you have to start 387 00:27:20,516 --> 00:27:25,716 Speaker 1: with a television series, Madeline's Variety TV Envy TV. We 388 00:27:25,756 --> 00:27:29,436 Speaker 1: have a hot show for you tonight. It's Breast Maintenance Day. 389 00:27:29,716 --> 00:27:32,916 Speaker 1: Does a bra a day help the Sago away? You 390 00:27:32,956 --> 00:27:34,636 Speaker 1: know what I mean? Should you? I read once when 391 00:27:34,676 --> 00:27:36,276 Speaker 1: I was young that you should wear a bra every days? 392 00:27:36,396 --> 00:27:39,076 Speaker 1: Is true? Or that's what the other day? What do 393 00:27:39,076 --> 00:27:41,436 Speaker 1: you think about this? Do you wear a brano? Not 394 00:27:41,596 --> 00:27:46,196 Speaker 1: every day? Inspired by anarchists, it aired in San Francisco 395 00:27:46,516 --> 00:27:50,236 Speaker 1: on the Community Access Channel in the late eighties. MVTV 396 00:27:50,356 --> 00:27:52,636 Speaker 1: is really really sexy, right because San Francisco is really 397 00:27:52,676 --> 00:27:54,516 Speaker 1: really sexy. So we get really wild, you know, like 398 00:27:54,556 --> 00:27:57,956 Speaker 1: putting wrestling, lesbians having sex on the American flag, and 399 00:27:58,076 --> 00:28:00,676 Speaker 1: you know when you're immersed in this world. San Francisco 400 00:28:00,676 --> 00:28:04,116 Speaker 1: in the late eighties and early nineties was a heavily 401 00:28:04,196 --> 00:28:08,316 Speaker 1: sexualized culture, and it became super normalized right. The show 402 00:28:08,356 --> 00:28:11,356 Speaker 1: picked up a cult following and earned Madeline a scholarship 403 00:28:11,396 --> 00:28:14,716 Speaker 1: to NYU, so she moved east and enrolled in one 404 00:28:14,716 --> 00:28:18,076 Speaker 1: of the hippest tech programs around. You had to code 405 00:28:18,156 --> 00:28:22,036 Speaker 1: whatever was on the Internet with HTML code, so I 406 00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:25,076 Speaker 1: had to learn that you have to be really precise, 407 00:28:25,316 --> 00:28:29,516 Speaker 1: very patient. I'm like a hyperactive, crazy, wild producer chick. 408 00:28:29,556 --> 00:28:31,236 Speaker 1: I am not someone who's going to sit there and 409 00:28:31,276 --> 00:28:33,596 Speaker 1: make sure every dot in its place. It drove me mad. 410 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:36,916 Speaker 1: But more than anything, the program was about big, brash ideas, 411 00:28:37,196 --> 00:28:39,876 Speaker 1: and one day one of those ideas hit Madeline like 412 00:28:39,916 --> 00:28:43,156 Speaker 1: the clap of a Whitney Houston solo. She was walking 413 00:28:43,156 --> 00:28:45,436 Speaker 1: in New York's East Village and thinking back to some 414 00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:51,196 Speaker 1: old guests on her TV show. I do remember like 415 00:28:51,236 --> 00:28:54,196 Speaker 1: this whole thing with talking to strippers and about how 416 00:28:54,436 --> 00:28:56,396 Speaker 1: they loved their job, and it was great, but coming 417 00:28:56,556 --> 00:28:58,916 Speaker 1: back and forth from the clubs, it was so dangerous. 418 00:28:59,036 --> 00:29:01,356 Speaker 1: And I knew a stripper who had got an attack. 419 00:29:01,436 --> 00:29:03,396 Speaker 1: I was walking down Second Avenue and I'm like, oh 420 00:29:03,436 --> 00:29:07,156 Speaker 1: my god, just have them do it online. Just is 421 00:29:07,196 --> 00:29:09,716 Speaker 1: gonna be like scooping money out of just part everywhere. 422 00:29:10,196 --> 00:29:12,876 Speaker 1: Could make me so rich. And I'm so altruistic. I 423 00:29:12,956 --> 00:29:16,196 Speaker 1: get to save it strippers. I'm just so awesome. Have 424 00:29:16,516 --> 00:29:20,596 Speaker 1: them do it online. You can just picture her in 425 00:29:20,636 --> 00:29:24,996 Speaker 1: that street, stopping dead in her tracks. Live video streaming. 426 00:29:25,636 --> 00:29:28,716 Speaker 1: Madeleine had just stumbled on the idea that, twenty five 427 00:29:28,796 --> 00:29:33,196 Speaker 1: years later made our pandemic zoom calls possible. It was 428 00:29:33,196 --> 00:29:37,396 Speaker 1: a little milestone in tech, Madeleine's light bulb moment, although 429 00:29:37,396 --> 00:29:42,316 Speaker 1: they were admittedly just a few small issues with making 430 00:29:42,316 --> 00:29:45,396 Speaker 1: it a reality. There was no technology, there was no 431 00:29:45,476 --> 00:29:49,116 Speaker 1: streaming video. Nobody was charging anything online. But you got 432 00:29:49,156 --> 00:29:52,116 Speaker 1: to work, and soon a site called Babes for You 433 00:29:52,316 --> 00:29:55,556 Speaker 1: was born. Madeleine put what money she had into it, 434 00:29:55,676 --> 00:29:59,916 Speaker 1: and there wasn't much. She hired a cheap office above 435 00:29:59,956 --> 00:30:02,636 Speaker 1: a loud Mexican joint, playing the maccarren all night long. 436 00:30:03,436 --> 00:30:06,316 Speaker 1: She found her babes, who had mainly been working as strippers, 437 00:30:06,356 --> 00:30:09,636 Speaker 1: and in her own words, she hired and fired coders 438 00:30:09,716 --> 00:30:13,396 Speaker 1: like spinal Tap went through drummers. They first went live 439 00:30:13,636 --> 00:30:17,156 Speaker 1: that year. You downloaded some software via an O eight 440 00:30:17,276 --> 00:30:20,596 Speaker 1: hundred number, and with that you could play live video. 441 00:30:20,756 --> 00:30:24,436 Speaker 1: You could chat to, although only by keyboard. Set aside 442 00:30:24,476 --> 00:30:27,476 Speaker 1: the nudity for a moment. This was a new frontier 443 00:30:27,516 --> 00:30:33,796 Speaker 1: in online communication. But it was painfully slow. One of 444 00:30:33,836 --> 00:30:36,676 Speaker 1: the babes didn't show up, and so I went and 445 00:30:36,836 --> 00:30:40,236 Speaker 1: started performing myself, which, you know, it was a huge 446 00:30:40,276 --> 00:30:41,956 Speaker 1: thing for me because I'm like, what am I sex 447 00:30:41,996 --> 00:30:45,236 Speaker 1: industry worker? Now? Like I'm a super well educated, supposed 448 00:30:45,356 --> 00:30:48,236 Speaker 1: text student. Now I'm just a sex worker. So I 449 00:30:48,276 --> 00:30:50,876 Speaker 1: just ended up doing it, and it was clunky, you know, 450 00:30:50,916 --> 00:30:53,836 Speaker 1: it was really difficult. A lot of the guys simply 451 00:30:54,516 --> 00:30:57,476 Speaker 1: didn't know how to use a desktop computer at all. Right, 452 00:30:57,876 --> 00:31:01,196 Speaker 1: it really did help a lot of strippers. Most of 453 00:31:01,236 --> 00:31:05,236 Speaker 1: my women were strippers. I think it really expanded the 454 00:31:05,436 --> 00:31:08,236 Speaker 1: sort of popularized view of what kind of women men wanted. 455 00:31:08,476 --> 00:31:11,356 Speaker 1: You know, on line, we found out about all kinds 456 00:31:11,396 --> 00:31:17,956 Speaker 1: of amazing fetishes. One of the fetishes involved oranges. Flying oranges. 457 00:31:18,556 --> 00:31:21,196 Speaker 1: Apparently it's a Dutch thing. That was really funny. We 458 00:31:21,196 --> 00:31:22,716 Speaker 1: did have one of these orange people do it, and 459 00:31:22,716 --> 00:31:24,956 Speaker 1: then she threw an orange and knocked the whole system out. 460 00:31:24,996 --> 00:31:30,476 Speaker 1: It was hilarious. But talk about controlling reality with your computer. 461 00:31:30,756 --> 00:31:33,876 Speaker 1: Was the guy wanted oranges thrown at her? Yeah, this 462 00:31:33,956 --> 00:31:36,436 Speaker 1: is a fetish, Alex. This is a big fetish. There 463 00:31:36,436 --> 00:31:39,636 Speaker 1: are hundreds of men out there who are really into it. Oh, 464 00:31:39,676 --> 00:31:43,276 Speaker 1: I'm ready. You know, we have more fun than the 465 00:31:43,356 --> 00:31:48,276 Speaker 1: guys and they're paying us. Oh, angel girl, you know 466 00:31:49,396 --> 00:31:54,236 Speaker 1: you're cannibal. The trouble in the early days was that 467 00:31:54,316 --> 00:31:58,156 Speaker 1: business was slow. Madeline had hired these babes and they 468 00:31:58,196 --> 00:32:00,996 Speaker 1: were sitting around with nothing to do. Well, first of all, 469 00:32:01,036 --> 00:32:04,276 Speaker 1: nobody knew it existed. Second of all, people were worried 470 00:32:04,276 --> 00:32:07,196 Speaker 1: about giving some random number credit card to some people. 471 00:32:07,196 --> 00:32:10,836 Speaker 1: But you know, ultimately there intense urge to have sex 472 00:32:11,276 --> 00:32:14,276 Speaker 1: drove them to trust the internet with credit card chromos 473 00:32:14,396 --> 00:32:17,396 Speaker 1: and this was never done before. Never Like people were like, what, 474 00:32:17,396 --> 00:32:20,076 Speaker 1: what buy something online? Who would do that? That's crazy? 475 00:32:20,276 --> 00:32:22,396 Speaker 1: I'm not going to buy anything online. Why would I 476 00:32:22,436 --> 00:32:26,716 Speaker 1: do that? But Madeline had a compelling story. When journalists 477 00:32:26,756 --> 00:32:30,316 Speaker 1: discovered her, they loved her. Here she is in an 478 00:32:30,316 --> 00:32:33,516 Speaker 1: interview from this time. We wanted to do something with 479 00:32:33,556 --> 00:32:35,836 Speaker 1: sex and something with computers because I was hooked up 480 00:32:35,876 --> 00:32:37,716 Speaker 1: with some people who were involved in the peign business, 481 00:32:37,876 --> 00:32:40,076 Speaker 1: and we were involved in the computer business as I 482 00:32:40,116 --> 00:32:43,196 Speaker 1: am myself, and so we thought, well, why don't we 483 00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:46,516 Speaker 1: do online video sex. It's a great idea. Madeline, who 484 00:32:46,596 --> 00:32:49,876 Speaker 1: graduated last week with her second master's degree, is in 485 00:32:50,316 --> 00:32:55,036 Speaker 1: Now get this the computer phone sex business. That's right, 486 00:32:55,556 --> 00:33:01,036 Speaker 1: computer phone sex. After the press reports, the customers started 487 00:33:01,036 --> 00:33:04,436 Speaker 1: lining up. And just remember how mad this sounded to 488 00:33:04,476 --> 00:33:07,916 Speaker 1: someone in nineteen ninety six. The customers were lining up 489 00:33:07,916 --> 00:33:11,596 Speaker 1: to pay for things, oh the internet. Manlin even worked 490 00:33:11,596 --> 00:33:14,556 Speaker 1: out how to charge them by the minute. By the way, 491 00:33:14,956 --> 00:33:18,756 Speaker 1: this payment system would prove hugely important to the porn industry. 492 00:33:19,156 --> 00:33:21,596 Speaker 1: We'll get into that in later episodes. I mean you 493 00:33:21,636 --> 00:33:24,516 Speaker 1: were kind of helping people over the threshold in a way, right, 494 00:33:25,116 --> 00:33:27,476 Speaker 1: in terms of using credit cards. Well, yeah, I mean 495 00:33:27,556 --> 00:33:29,556 Speaker 1: sex is the biggest drive of all, right, people will 496 00:33:29,596 --> 00:33:32,316 Speaker 1: do crazy things for sex, even to use the credit 497 00:33:32,316 --> 00:33:37,116 Speaker 1: card over the Internet. I mean, basically, we invented internet 498 00:33:37,156 --> 00:33:40,956 Speaker 1: commerce and just keep charging people's credit cards by the minute. 499 00:33:41,116 --> 00:33:44,716 Speaker 1: This was never done before she performed, and she also 500 00:33:44,756 --> 00:33:48,436 Speaker 1: acted as an IT help desk. She explained to customers 501 00:33:48,436 --> 00:33:51,516 Speaker 1: how to switch on their computer or warn them about 502 00:33:51,596 --> 00:33:55,716 Speaker 1: the CD ROM drive the round hole. No, it's not 503 00:33:55,836 --> 00:33:58,276 Speaker 1: for holding your coffee cup. People would call like, why 504 00:33:58,316 --> 00:34:00,596 Speaker 1: isn't it work. You're like, seriously, it's not plugged in. 505 00:34:00,756 --> 00:34:02,196 Speaker 1: I don't know what a window is. What do you 506 00:34:02,236 --> 00:34:04,316 Speaker 1: mean by a window? Like, I don't know how to 507 00:34:04,356 --> 00:34:07,316 Speaker 1: resize the window. They're like, just drag it from the corner. 508 00:34:07,876 --> 00:34:11,796 Speaker 1: Madeline's idea that Thunderbolt on Second Avenue was a live 509 00:34:11,876 --> 00:34:15,396 Speaker 1: sex show online, but in reality, she just didn't have 510 00:34:15,476 --> 00:34:18,356 Speaker 1: the tech to do it. There was no concept of streaming, 511 00:34:18,876 --> 00:34:20,956 Speaker 1: but with the help of a couple of tech wizards, 512 00:34:20,996 --> 00:34:24,756 Speaker 1: she figured it out. By nineteen ninety six, they were 513 00:34:24,836 --> 00:34:28,996 Speaker 1: streaming video directly through a web browser, a technology then 514 00:34:29,036 --> 00:34:33,196 Speaker 1: called jpeg push. This was the dawn of live camps. 515 00:34:33,676 --> 00:34:37,316 Speaker 1: Think about your Zoom or FaceTime, but back then the 516 00:34:37,436 --> 00:34:41,356 Speaker 1: breakthrough was literally the digital version of an old animation book, 517 00:34:41,916 --> 00:34:43,756 Speaker 1: you know, the ones where you flipped through the images 518 00:34:43,756 --> 00:34:46,636 Speaker 1: which your thumb. We were the first to stream live video. 519 00:34:46,996 --> 00:34:49,676 Speaker 1: I mean, the live part is the real component here. 520 00:34:49,676 --> 00:34:51,716 Speaker 1: And that's really where I came in because I've been 521 00:34:51,716 --> 00:34:53,556 Speaker 1: dealing with live programming for so long. It was a 522 00:34:53,636 --> 00:34:56,556 Speaker 1: shoe in for me to figure out how to get 523 00:34:56,556 --> 00:35:00,596 Speaker 1: this live programming through the Internet. While Madeline might not 524 00:35:00,676 --> 00:35:04,276 Speaker 1: have been the very first, she definitely was one of 525 00:35:04,356 --> 00:35:07,356 Speaker 1: the first. It was so cutting edge that some people 526 00:35:07,396 --> 00:35:10,596 Speaker 1: were showing up with no trested in porn. It's amazing 527 00:35:10,596 --> 00:35:13,396 Speaker 1: how many customers in the beginning came on not for sex, 528 00:35:13,396 --> 00:35:15,756 Speaker 1: but to figure out the technology. They were like, wait, okay, 529 00:35:15,796 --> 00:35:18,796 Speaker 1: how are you doing this? Can you just I will pay. 530 00:35:19,196 --> 00:35:20,836 Speaker 1: I don't want to see the girl, just get me 531 00:35:20,876 --> 00:35:23,156 Speaker 1: the owner, and I need to talk to the programmer 532 00:35:23,196 --> 00:35:26,876 Speaker 1: and I need to figure out what's going on. Porn 533 00:35:27,436 --> 00:35:31,036 Speaker 1: was teaching the world how to use the Internet. Sure, 534 00:35:31,716 --> 00:35:34,876 Speaker 1: I mean people were experimenting with live video, but at 535 00:35:34,916 --> 00:35:37,636 Speaker 1: that point the people who made it work and made 536 00:35:37,636 --> 00:35:42,236 Speaker 1: money from it were imporn like Madeline's sites, plus a 537 00:35:42,276 --> 00:35:48,796 Speaker 1: few streamed sex shows from Amsterdam. Madeline, though, didn't stick around. 538 00:35:49,276 --> 00:35:52,476 Speaker 1: Her adventures in online sex were drawing to a close. 539 00:35:52,996 --> 00:35:56,116 Speaker 1: She was pregnant, her priorities changed, and she got an 540 00:35:56,156 --> 00:35:59,116 Speaker 1: offer on Babes for You. It came from a couple 541 00:35:59,116 --> 00:36:03,116 Speaker 1: of X insurance salesmen from Boston. They got into the 542 00:36:03,156 --> 00:36:05,796 Speaker 1: world of live video thinking it would be a way 543 00:36:05,836 --> 00:36:09,996 Speaker 1: to connect financial advices. The end are being the largest 544 00:36:10,036 --> 00:36:14,716 Speaker 1: purveyors of sex worldwide. Madeleine's site became part of a 545 00:36:14,796 --> 00:36:17,636 Speaker 1: business that launched Float for Free, one of the biggest 546 00:36:17,676 --> 00:36:22,436 Speaker 1: live camporn sites. Madeline was happy though she bought a 547 00:36:22,516 --> 00:36:26,516 Speaker 1: Bauhau's house with her earnings. She's still there in the house, 548 00:36:26,556 --> 00:36:29,596 Speaker 1: that sex bot, and she's proud of what she did 549 00:36:29,636 --> 00:36:33,836 Speaker 1: in those wild days of online experimentation. Madeleine was in 550 00:36:33,876 --> 00:36:37,836 Speaker 1: the first generation of Internet entrepreneurs, the first to play 551 00:36:37,916 --> 00:36:42,196 Speaker 1: with the spell binding potential of the worldwide Web. Madeleine's 552 00:36:42,196 --> 00:36:44,716 Speaker 1: thing was live video, but we could have told you 553 00:36:44,796 --> 00:36:49,476 Speaker 1: stories of solo performers with amateur sites, swinger couples, credit 554 00:36:49,516 --> 00:36:54,036 Speaker 1: card swindlers. These were crazy days. One pornographer at the 555 00:36:54,076 --> 00:36:57,476 Speaker 1: time boasted that she used more bandwidth than all of 556 00:36:57,516 --> 00:37:01,156 Speaker 1: Central America. It was porn that really pushed for the 557 00:37:01,196 --> 00:37:04,436 Speaker 1: streaming technology. It was porn that really pushed for all 558 00:37:04,476 --> 00:37:08,076 Speaker 1: the credit card and online commerce technology. It was us, 559 00:37:08,516 --> 00:37:12,436 Speaker 1: We're the ones who did it. A chick from NYU. 560 00:37:15,716 --> 00:37:18,916 Speaker 1: They set the fire. They taught the world about the 561 00:37:18,956 --> 00:37:23,836 Speaker 1: power of the web, deliberating side and the scary, uncontrolled 562 00:37:23,876 --> 00:37:27,436 Speaker 1: side within a couple of decades, the fire that Madeline's 563 00:37:27,476 --> 00:37:31,796 Speaker 1: generation started it became an inferno. The tube sides we 564 00:37:31,876 --> 00:37:36,436 Speaker 1: told you about they popped up. Porn became ubiquitous, streamed 565 00:37:36,436 --> 00:37:39,876 Speaker 1: in an instant often for free. Thanks in part to 566 00:37:39,916 --> 00:37:43,596 Speaker 1: the Playboy court case, owners of sites like Pornhub could 567 00:37:43,596 --> 00:37:47,436 Speaker 1: host vast amounts of porn without being held to count 568 00:37:47,476 --> 00:37:53,156 Speaker 1: for any specific video until twenty twenty. That is, when 569 00:37:53,196 --> 00:37:57,636 Speaker 1: pawn faced an almighty reckoning over illegal content and pawn 570 00:37:57,716 --> 00:38:01,916 Speaker 1: Hub's world came crashing down. It was the moment pawn 571 00:38:01,996 --> 00:38:07,596 Speaker 1: Hub's enemies discovered the Achilles Heel of online pawn. That's 572 00:38:07,596 --> 00:38:11,276 Speaker 1: our next episode. So in my opinion, there is two 573 00:38:11,756 --> 00:38:15,756 Speaker 1: players on this planet then can kill porn online, and 574 00:38:15,836 --> 00:38:18,076 Speaker 1: they can literally kill it. And if they decidle they 575 00:38:18,156 --> 00:38:31,516 Speaker 1: it's dead. It's done, absolutely impossible. Hot Money is a 576 00:38:31,556 --> 00:38:34,756 Speaker 1: production of The Financial Times and Pushkin Industries. It was 577 00:38:34,796 --> 00:38:38,756 Speaker 1: written or reported by me Patrician Eelson and me Alex Barker. 578 00:38:39,596 --> 00:38:43,356 Speaker 1: Peter Sale is our lead producer and sound designer. Edith 579 00:38:43,436 --> 00:38:47,996 Speaker 1: Russolo is our associate producer. Our editor is Karen Shakurji. 580 00:38:48,236 --> 00:38:53,636 Speaker 1: Amanda Kwong is our engineer music composition by Pascal Wise, 581 00:38:54,036 --> 00:38:59,276 Speaker 1: fact checking by Andrea Lopez Kusado. Our executive producers are 582 00:38:59,356 --> 00:39:03,476 Speaker 1: Cheryl Brumley and Jacob Goldstein. Special thanks to Renee Kaplan 583 00:39:03,556 --> 00:39:06,676 Speaker 1: and Ruler Kalov for The Financial Times, and Mia Lobel, 584 00:39:07,076 --> 00:39:13,356 Speaker 1: Lital Molad, Justineang, Julia Barton and Jacob Weisberg at Pushkin Industries. 585 00:39:14,196 --> 00:39:16,636 Speaker 1: Thank you to a similar Web for providing our web 586 00:39:16,676 --> 00:39:21,196 Speaker 1: traffic data. If you like this show, consider subscribing to 587 00:39:21,236 --> 00:39:24,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus, offering bonus content and ad free listening across 588 00:39:24,796 --> 00:39:27,836 Speaker 1: our network for four dollars ninety nine a month. Look 589 00:39:27,836 --> 00:39:30,756 Speaker 1: for the Pushkin Plus channel on Apple Podcasts or at 590 00:39:30,796 --> 00:39:51,956 Speaker 1: pushkin dot fm