WEBVTT - How Josh Brown Created A Financial Media Empire 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:18.560 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.120 Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:26.000 I'm Joe Wisenthal. 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:26.640 And I'm Tracy Alloway. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:31.080 Tracy, I know I'm biased, We're probably biased. I'm certainly biased. 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:35.440 Speak for yourself, Joe, I myself have no emotions. That's 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:37.159 for our opinions about anything. 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:39.519 That's why I host a podcast. 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:42.320 That's right, we're the question askers, we're not the answers. 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.000 But I am sort of biased about anyone who sort 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:47.800 of grew up in financial media in like the two 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:50.400 thousand and eight, two thousand and nine era, two thousand 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:53.080 and seven. You know, like we're just a different breed. 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.200 We're just a different we're just a little cut above. 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:59.320 I think it was definitely a moment in financial media 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:02.400 that I think has yet to be recaptured because there 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:06.120 were two things that were happening simultaneously. So one you 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:10.120 had the financial crisis where everything was going haywire, and 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:14.080 it was all going haywire in a relatively new way. Yes, 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:18.720 people had to suddenly learn what synthetic CDOs were, how 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:23.360 the revered the show, Okay, how the repo market worked. 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:28.319 Didn't learn all of that, and then at the same time, 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:31.920 you had like a big format change because you had 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.319 all these blogs that suddenly burst out of nowhere. And 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.040 at that time, the combination of like the new blogging 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.920 format plus the news cycle itself, which was so weird 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:45.360 and so fast paced, really meant that blogs were kind 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.800 of the perfect platform to cover the financial crisis. They 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:51.600 had an edge at that time. And I feel again 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.080 to your point, probably a bit of personal bias there, 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:57.240 but like I feel like it was a very special moment. 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.320 It was you nailed it exactly. It was the two 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.360 things happening at once that made that a distinct time, 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:06.720 which is right, all this stuff was happening, and there 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.079 were just new formats, and then you know, Twitter came 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:12.000 around then, so, uh do you know, and I joined 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:13.840 I tweet a lot. Do you know when I joined Twitter? 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:15.080 Uh? 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:17.480 Two thousand and nine, No. 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:20.720 March two thousand and eight, Okay, And I was at 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:26.120 south By Southwest when bear Sterns collapsed, and and then 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:27.919 you know, it was before everyone knew that the world 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.960 was totally melting down. But also then I remembered I 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:33.440 have like distinct memories of that time because you know, 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.799 JP Morgan made that two dollars per share offer for 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.560 bear Sterns, and like a week before bear Sterns have 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.080 been trading at like sixty or something like that. And 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:46.920 I very distinctly remember a few people on Twitter talking 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.520 about like know that because people thought there was a typo, 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:51.919 remember like oh, it must be twenty or something like that. 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.400 And I saw these voices who actually knew what they 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:56.760 were talking about, like, no, this two dollars makes sense, 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:59.040 this is a real number, et cetera. Eventually, I think 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.160 they bought them for like ten dollars a share because 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.280 the government pressured them. But that was the first place 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:06.840 it was like I was getting information from people who 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:10.359 knew what they were talking about faster and sharper than 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.240 I was getting any other platform. 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:14.760 And who were those people too? 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:16.840 I think one of them was Howard Lindzen and I 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:20.280 think another one was Roger Ehrenberg, which were like two 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.799 of the names who are like, you know based, But anyway, 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:24.840 there were many other names, including someone we're going to 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:25.560 talk to right now. 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:27.040 I'm very excited. 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:30.760 So the person we're about to speak to, I remember 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:35.520 linking to his stuff right when I started financial blogging, 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:38.160 which was September two thousand and eight on ft Alphavil 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:41.480 and again the world blowing up around that time, Lehman 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.400 collapsing all of that, and I remember constantly linking to 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:46.960 his stuff at the time. 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:47.800 And then the other thing. 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:49.720 This is kind of weird, but the other thing I 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.280 associate with our guests. The first time I ever met 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.320 him in person was in New York, and that was 0:03:56.400 --> 0:04:00.880 the last time I ever drank a blue moon, because 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.800 I think I have like three of them. Yeah, yeah, 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:06.880 but it was too much. And ever since then I 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:10.640 never again. No blue moons, but yes, lots of lots 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:11.800 of our guest for sure. 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:14.720 Well, I'm really excited. I think it's his first time 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:16.880 coming on the show. We are going to be speaking 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:21.800 to the one and only Josh Brown, a legend. Back 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:23.960 in the old days, when we were linking to his blog, 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.680 it was the reform broker. He son set it that 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:28.600 he's a new he writes a new. 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:30.200 Blue moved on to bigger things. For sure. 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.359 We've done too much bigger things, but that was huge. 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:36.240 He's currently the CEO of Ridholt's Wealth Management. He is 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:39.279 the author of a brand new book You Weren't Supposed 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:43.599 To See That Secrets every investor should know. I'm so excited. 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:47.880 He hosts a popular podcast as well to compound. Josh Brown, 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:49.160 thank you so much for coming on. 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.360 Outlaws, Tracy. I'm drinking a blue moon right now. 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:53.280 That's perfect. 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:54.960 Josh. Do you remember that? 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:57.960 I can deal as long as it's you and not me. 0:04:58.279 --> 0:04:58.760 That's good. 0:04:59.120 --> 0:04:59.360 Josh. 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:01.520 Do you remember the where we met the first time? 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:02.640 Do you remember where it was? 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:06.400 I remember? Oh man, you do remember? Okay, I'm going 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.320 to take a guess. I remember there was one night 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:14.720 where Scott Bell got all the bloggers together at the 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:19.080 Campbell Apartment on the on the Vanderbilt side of Grand Central, 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:24.159 and that's like a speakeasy bar. And I remember meeting 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:28.719 a lot of people who were writing and tweeting about 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.000 markets the first time that night, and I think you 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:33.280 were one of them. I'm not sure, so it was 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:33.839 that night. 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:36.360 My recollection is a little different. I thought we went 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:39.320 to the Michael Jordan's Steakhouse, which is also in Grand 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:40.919 Central and just on the. 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:41.680 We might have done both. 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.920 We might have done both, but we both agree. I 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:47.719 think it was probably two thousand and nine Grand Central, 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.400 either in the Campbell Apartment or the Michael Jordan's Steakhouse, 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:53.360 which sadley is no longer there, but yeah, that was 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:55.000 the first time, and now we're here. 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:59.120 It was a Cambrian explosion of market commentators who were 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:03.960 coming from non traditional market commentary backgrounds prior to that moment, 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.320 just to button up what Tracy was saying. Prior to 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:10.480 that moment, most of the people who were commenting on 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:15.080 markets in a big way and were able to get 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:18.000 their views out to the public were coming from Wall 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:23.920 Street or were traditional journalists, and you know, they were 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:27.080 like the public relations firm would book the person on TV, 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:30.080 the person would go on Bloomberg or on CNBC, and 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.520 you know, they were like they had pedigree, and they 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.920 also had guardrails. They had things that they wouldn't they 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.880 weren't able to touch because they were connected to like 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.400 a Fortune five hundred company. And then all of a sudden, 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:47.080 this Cambrian explosion on the Internet. All of a sudden, 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:52.280 you've got people amassing large followerships who have no pedigree, 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.560 who have no publicist, and who have no guardrails and 0:06:55.600 --> 0:07:00.159 are able to say things that you know, other people 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.640 would gasp at. But then that became the mainstream, and 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.280 then all of a sudden, the media was picking up 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:10.000 those voices rather than the traditional voices that they had 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.760 been so accustomed to booking. And I think all three 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:17.600 of us, you know, benefited from having been early and 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.680 visible in that era and to this day, like a 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:22.800 lot of the people that came out of the woodwork 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:26.080 at that time are you know, now part of the establishment. 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:28.760 So it was a really cool thing to be a part. 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.480 I can count yeah, listen, I could count on on 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.480 maybe two hands the people who are talking about finance 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.600 on Twitter in March of two thousand and nine. When 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:41.400 I started, it was a really small group of people 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:46.120 because most professionals had compliance departments that just would not 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.240 let them talk that way. Now of course, now, of 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:51.480 course the compliance department is like when are you starting 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:56.520 a podcast? So it's it's changed a lot. But we 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:58.520 were there, the three of us, and you know, we 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:00.400 can come up with a whole bunch of the names, 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:01.360 but there aren't that many. 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.800 Yeah, And to be fair, so one of the advantages 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.280 that I think bloggers and people who were on Twitter 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:11.320 at the time had over traditional media was just the 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:15.840 immediacy of that publishing platform because things were happening so 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.760 fast right, like, within within a single day, you would 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:24.160 have like ten history making stories all happening at once, 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.760 and the newspapers and traditional media to some extent, just 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.440 couldn't keep up, whereas if you're tweeting about it, if 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.280 you're blogging about it in real time, you really had 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.480 a competitive advantage. But Josh, I know you've written about 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:40.840 this before, but for the benefit of our listeners, why 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:43.720 did you get into blogging in the first place, Because again, 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.000 people take it as a given now that you're on 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:50.080 social media if you want to get ahead in your career, 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:53.280 But back then it was a very new and to 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:54.439 some extent, risky thing. 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.800 So I'm working at a third tier broker dealer in 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:03.360 two thousand and eight, and like many other firms on 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:09.600 Wall Street, they were seeing their revenue implode and you know, 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:13.600 struggling and you know, raising money to try to stay 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:16.880 in business, and you know, I go to the compliance 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.760 officer and I'm like, Hey, I'm reading this blog by 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:22.280 this guy barrio it Holtz, and I'm reading a bunch 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:26.160 of blogs and they're doing a really great job describing 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.480 what's happening. Every day. There's more news. It seemed like 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:32.920 like every minute there was more news, and the people 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:34.720 that were covering at best were not at the Wall 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:39.120 Street Journal. They were independent bloggers like Tatas Visconta and 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:43.120 Eddie Elfinbne and Barry and Eve Smith at Naked Capitalism 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:48.520 and The Epicurean deal Maker and Med Faber. But these 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.840 are like, these are people who they either work on 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.560 Wall Street or they used to, or they talk to 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:57.480 people that work on Wall Street, and they just there's 0:09:57.480 --> 0:09:59.960 so much more urgency to the way that they're describing 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.480 this unfolding crisis. So I said, I said to my 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:07.599 compliance officer, Hey, I know, like we have compliance restrictions 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:09.800 and stuff, but if I stay within the lines of 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.560 FINRA is at that time, I'm a retail broker. If 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:14.640 I stay within the lines of what finra says I 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:17.360 can and can't say, can I do a blog? And 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.480 he looks at me. To his credit, he goes, I 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:22.640 gotta be honest with you. I don't even know if 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:24.560 this place is going to be around tomorrow. I don't 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:28.079 give a shit, Like do whatever, do whatever you want 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.760 to do. Just just just make sure you print a 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.240 copy of everything that you're hitting publish on and bring 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:37.559 it to me. And I'll sign it. And so I 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.200 appreciate him to this day because he was he was 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:45.840 dealing with much bigger issues. And you know, around that time, 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:48.680 there were so few people that had been given the 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:50.520 liberty to do that. I always tell people how lucky 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.040 I am. There were so few people in my position 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.800 who had been given the liberty to speak freely on 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:58.600 the internet. I was one of them. And as a result, 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.240 there was such a th for knowledge amongst the general 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.720 public that I was able to build a really big 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.760 following before you know, thousands of other people would start blogs. 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:14.800 So being early and you know, having that advantage, I'll 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:18.600 never not appreciate that I had the opportunity to do that. 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:36.640 I have a personal question in two thousand and eight, 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:38.439 two thousand and nine, and your boss is saying, I 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:40.040 don't even know if we're going to be around. So 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:44.240 I was like living in an apartment in Brooklyn. I 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.319 had two roommates at the time. It was sort of 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.079 the whole thing was very interesting. You hit a career, 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:51.360 you were at a brokerage. I believe you had a 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.599 daughter at least by that point. What's that like with 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.800 the anxiety of like you have like I didn't really 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.240 have any responsibilities. I could sort of sit there eating 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:03.839 my popcorn watching things employe, but you were in it, 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:06.560 and presumably you know, you had like supportive what's that 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:08.920 like supporting a family and being in the mix and 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:11.480 being at a company where it looks like the world 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:11.920 is ending. 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.360 So I'm living in a rent control department on the 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.559 upper east side Rupert Towers, which used to be the 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:22.600 Rupert Brewery that sponsored the Yankees. I'm up on ninetieth 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.720 and Third Avenue. I'm commuting down on the sixth train 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.439 to forty second Street every day. My office is in 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:32.000 the Helmsley Building, which is now called two thirty Park, 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.760 but I'll always call it the Helmsley Building, And on 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.520 the left side of the building is Barri Stearns. The 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:39.960 right side of the building is JP Morgan. You know, 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.440 a lot of my friends from college are bond salesman 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:45.600 at Bear. My wife's best friend works at Lehman Brothers. 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:51.240 She works at Golden Sacks. And I'm just surrounded by 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:54.160 people that work at, you know, some of the biggest 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:57.160 banks in the country, because those were the big employers 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.400 in New York and so, you know, it was highly 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:04.120 anxious we were in our i don't know, mid to 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.200 late twenties, so everybody was going out and drinking a 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.120 lot and just like commiserating. But I'll never forget the 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:14.199 day bear Stearns closed because it was the same day 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.880 as that as the Saint Patrick's Day parade. So like, 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.080 out of more big curiosity, myself and all my fellow 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:24.720 brokers walk around the corner from Helmsley over to the 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.120 quote unquote the bear Stearns Building, which by the way, 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.400 had just finished construction a year before. A lot of 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:31.880 people don't know that. They spent ten years building it 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:33.600 and then the firm went out of business deal later. 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.080 So we walk around the corner. We see Aaron Burnett, 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:39.200 who at that time is CNBC. She's sitting at a 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.480 folding table doing live coverage from in front of the 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:46.280 bear Stearns building, and behind her almost the entire Saint 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:49.520 Patrick's Day Parade is coming off of Fifth Avenue where 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:54.760 it ends, and like people are like publicly drunk, and 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:58.800 there's green hats and bugles and you know they're blowing 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:02.840 horns and there's horse and meanwhile you look behind that 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:07.160 and you see white collar workers coming out of the 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.560 front of the building with cardboard boxes with all their 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.000 stuff in it. It's I want to find that footage 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:15.439 because I don't I don't think people appreciate the extent 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:19.560 to which it was just an absolute daily circus. And 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:22.880 not long after, that same scene would be repeated in 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.840 Times Square, where Lehman Brothers was headquartered. They literally took 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.560 the sign off the front of the building almost symbolically, 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.560 and you have thousands of people coming out of the 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.480 front of the building with cardboard boxes. Some of them 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:39.040 would get recalled the next day when Barkley's bought it. 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.280 But that was those were the times that we lived in. 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:47.520 And you know, I think one underappreciated aspect of this 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:52.160 is it's only like five or six years removed from 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.280 the nine to eleven era, and it just felt like 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.720 trauma after trauma after trauma. So that was the New 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.720 York in which I worked and lived and started to write. 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.600 And about a month after I launched The Reformed Broker, 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:11.040 the Madoff thing broke. So we went from so we 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:15.840 went from bear Stearns to a year later Lehman Brothers 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:20.280 aig the tarp vote blah blah blah blah blah, and 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:24.800 just when you think it's over. The most trust shattering 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:30.080 revelation of a Ponzi scheme in the history of finance breaks, 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:34.440 and so I just had endless fodder to write about 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:38.160 and maybe to answer your question. That helped serve as 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:42.600 a distraction from all of the anxiety in which people 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.880 working on Wall Street, you know, had to live. 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.440 I remember when the Madoff thing broke, I think it 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.960 was later in two thousand and eight, was it? 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:52.760 Yeah? 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:56.640 And I remember the headline December Yeah, and the headline 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.840 on the ft Alphaville post, the very first post on 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:02.520 the topic is one of my all time favorites. 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:03.240 It wasn't by me. 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.480 I think it was by our founder Paul Murphy, but 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:09.200 it was he made off with it, which was at 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:14.440 the time a very original pun and sticks in it 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.040 became less original as the months went on and the 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.360 story went on. Okay, what happened? So what happened to 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.200 the brokerage that you were working at? And like, how 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:28.120 did you manage the career transition away from blogging and 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.240 into I mean, you basically run an investment and a 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:34.040 media empire at this point, So how did that happen? 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.200 All? Right? So I'm still a broker, but I'm also 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:44.960 a co branch manager. And it's interesting retail investors didn't 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:46.960 at least the type of investor. We weren't really dealing 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:50.600 with investors. We were dealing with gamblers, people that were 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:55.480 trading stocks. And around that same time you had the 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:59.280 introduction of the two x and then the three X 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:04.159 in xctfs. So the ticker symbols are now infamous. You 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:08.240 had the TNA and the TZA. One of those was 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.240 triple long, the Russell two thousand, the other was triple short. 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:15.399 You had the FAS and the FAZ. Those were the 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:20.080 triple long and triple short financial sector in the XCTF. 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.920 And that's what the retail brokers pivoted to. They were 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:28.439 no longer pitching stocks because everything looked uninvestable. I mean, 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.439 you literally had a fifty seven percent peak to trough 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.960 decline in the S and P. And by the way, again, 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:36.879 that same thing had happened from the dot com bubble 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.359 through NRON world Com nine to eleven. So like after 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.000 ten years of that kind of volatility, people were just like, 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.560 you know what, I'm going to invest in volatility, And 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.040 so that's what the brokers, the retail brokers pivoted to 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.920 I'm a co branch manager. I have to send letters 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:58.240 to the clients where they disclaim, yes, I want to 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:02.200 be trading the three x long or short Russell two thousand. 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.880 Like the clients would sign the letters and that would 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.639 give the brokers carte blanche to just you know's all right, 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.640 let's play. We're in the game. You would have these 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:14.840 are ETFs that are trading I don't know, hundreds of 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:18.520 millions of dollars maybe billions of dollars in in volume, 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.879 and you could be down twenty percent in the morning 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.040 and then up twenty percent in the afternoon. It was 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:26.880 just the wild West. And I looked around and I said, 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:30.000 what the hell am I doing this for? Like, no 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:33.560 one is being helped by this activity, even the brokers. 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:36.280 They were barely making money. So it was just like 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:39.320 it was an epiphany that I had up until then 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:43.320 spent ten years doing retail brokerage, and nobody was better 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:45.879 off for it, not me, not my clients, not the 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:49.359 firm I worked for. So I started to get really 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.920 curious about, well, what are what are normal people doing? 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.800 And like what should I be doing to actually help 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.760 people in this profession? And it became really obvious that 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:01.760 I was on the wrong side of the boat. So 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.800 the brokerage side, the Series seven side, where you're selling investments, 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:11.119 versus the investment advisor side, where you're giving advice and 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.359 the investing is incidental to the advice, and you're not 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:18.639 selling products, you're building portfolios and you're helping people really 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:21.480 solve the puzzle of how are they going to retire, 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:23.720 how are they going to pay for their kids college, etc. 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:26.760 So I knew that I was on the wrong side 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.880 within the profession, and in those days, most people were. 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:34.959 There were more people that were registered representatives or Series 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:39.679 seven license brokers than there were true financial advisors. And 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.639 so my decision, guys was I'm going to be a 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:46.760 reformed broker and I'm going to go over to the 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:50.080 investment advisor side. But then the catch was, well, how 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.600 do you do that? How do you leave? How do 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.080 you leave the brokerage side and go over to the 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:58.119 advice side? And I didn't know. So it wasn't until 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:03.480 twenty ten that I met Barry, who is, you know, 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.399 at that time my idol. Now he's my partner, but 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:09.320 I when I met him, I sat with him and 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.080 I said, all right, here's my problem, or he said 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:15.160 here's I didn't say anything first, Barry did like an 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:20.639 hour so I want to remind people. And of course 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:24.159 Barry is a host of a show on Bloomberg and 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:28.399 so okay. So Barry says, here's my problem. I have 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.680 the number one best selling book in the country about 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:35.480 the financial crisis. It's called Bailout Nation, and I think 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:37.360 it proceeded to big to fail and all the rest. 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:39.520 So he's all right, at the number one book in 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:43.359 the country on the financial crisis. I actually predicted the 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:46.440 crisis on my blog. I called it in real time. 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:51.000 I predicted the market crash, and I had my phone 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:54.400 is ringing off the hook because I also predicted the bottom. 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:56.840 So he in the New York Times three days before 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:59.520 the market bottomed, he said, I don't know if there's 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:01.640 a thousand more points down from here, but I think 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:04.560 you buy them. And literally three days later, the market bottom. 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:07.679 So the phones are ringing off the hook at the 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:11.080 RIA that he works at. And he's not a financial advisor, 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:14.719 he's a strategist. He doesn't talk to clients, so he's like, 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:17.040 my problem is the phones are bringing off the hook 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:19.879 the emails are pouring in. People are like, Barry, just 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:21.960 take my money, take my money, take my money. I 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:24.640 don't do that. So I don't know how to help 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:27.640 these people. I said, Oh, okay, I have the opposite problem. 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:33.040 I'm ready to help people. Nobody's calling me. I don't know. 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:35.280 I don't know where to get my next client from. 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:38.520 So we teamed up and it was like lightning in 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:42.080 a bottle. Like I'm telling you guys, we had like 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.359 hundreds of people a month just call the firm. I 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:47.600 would start talking about like how we're going to invest 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:49.920 their money, and they'd be like, just shut up, here's 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:53.440 my Social Security number, Like open me an account, and 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:58.360 I'm leaving Merrill Lynch, I'm leaving, I'm leaving Leman, I'm 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:00.639 leaving this. From leaving that firm, I get my money 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:02.639 out of there, and I want to work with Barry. 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:08.000 So my transition was like this insane rollercoaster of going 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:10.959 from like nobody wants to talk to me, and then 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:13.560 the next day it's like, oh my god, Josh, how 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:16.840 do I get you guys money? And that's how it started. 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:19.320 And you know, we've been we've been running ever since. 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:24.480 Uh when so there's a lot of questions that I 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:27.040 have a different past week could go down. So you 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:31.200 start the advisory with Barry, and now it's huge and 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:36.440 you have all advisors all over the country, so multiple offices, 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:39.160 et cetera. And we could talk about that more on 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:42.040 the media side, So you had been doing the blogging, 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:44.719 you know, I think both of us, like I started 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:47.119 blogging in like two thousand and six or whatever. You know, 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:48.960 it was just to write and I didn't think anything 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:52.000 would really come of that aspect other than like, you know, 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:56.119 personal notebook, et cetera. When did it seem like the 0:22:56.240 --> 0:23:00.560 media side of your career was also getting could be 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:02.919 like a real thing that like is not just like 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:06.800 a notebook or whatever, but something that like, oh there's 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:09.800 like this can grow and this can grow your profile. 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:11.840 And obviously now you're on CNBC and you have a 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:15.639 conference biz and by the way, if you're listening to this, 0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:18.920 I believe it is going to be released the day 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:21.359 that we're all out at your future Proof conference. But 0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:23.400 when did you sort of realize that there's something big 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:25.800 happening on the media side that could be more than 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:28.680 just a blog that you like, you know, tell people 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:29.239 what's going on? 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:31.840 So all right, so I'm writing every day, yeah, and 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:36.359 I'm writing every day. Yeah, I'm a man on fire 0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:39.240 and I am and I don't. So. I think the 0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:41.920 charm of what I was doing then is that I 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:46.960 never presented myself as like I'm like this, you know, 0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:51.240 billionaire hedge fund manager, or I'm a cheap strategist at 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:54.879 you know, Goldman Sachs, you know, caliber market commentator. I 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:59.560 never I can't help it. I was always ever just me. 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:02.439 And so I was writing from the perspective of a 0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:06.600 grunt in the trenches on Wall Street, suffering through all 0:24:06.640 --> 0:24:09.600 the ups and downs like everyone else, and talking about 0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:12.520 what it was like to talk to clients, talking about 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:14.760 what it was like to navigate, you know, all of 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:18.159 the various cross currents that were happening, but from a 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:22.040 street level. And I think the readership appreciated that. And 0:24:22.760 --> 0:24:25.320 what ended up happening was it became popular enough that 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:30.679 professionals in the financial media started like people were sending 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:33.760 them links, and then they started to share those links 0:24:33.800 --> 0:24:37.400 in their editorial meetings. And the first people that put 0:24:37.440 --> 0:24:40.639 me on TV were CNN Money, my friend Caleb Silver. 0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:43.920 I was like, in with this group of other financial 0:24:43.960 --> 0:24:47.840 bloggers with Howard Lindzen and who's a venture capitalist at 0:24:47.840 --> 0:24:50.639 the time, and you know, a whole bunch of people. 0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:54.600 And CNN is starting to do more financial content because 0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:57.560 the whole country is like wrapped with what's going on. 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:00.960 So CNN Money really was my first shot at being 0:25:01.000 --> 0:25:05.080 able to take my writing and turn it into like 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:08.639 television and commentary. I was also getting a lot of 0:25:08.640 --> 0:25:10.600 calls from the Wall Street Journal. They were linking to 0:25:10.680 --> 0:25:13.520 me every day, and they were like, because they didn't 0:25:13.760 --> 0:25:17.400 set that time. And Tracy will attest to this, Joe, 0:25:17.440 --> 0:25:20.720 you were writing at cluster Stock, which became exciting, but 0:25:21.000 --> 0:25:28.399 like I never will. But the large, the large media firms, 0:25:29.440 --> 0:25:31.919 the large media firms were not staffed up to do 0:25:32.080 --> 0:25:35.080 hourly commentary on every twist and turn in the market. 0:25:35.320 --> 0:25:38.840 So instead of attempting to do that with traditional journalists, 0:25:38.880 --> 0:25:42.320 and they had amazing journalists, they pivoted to this idea 0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:44.359 that all right, we can't cover everything, but we'll do 0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:47.520 a link fest every day and we'll tell the readers 0:25:47.920 --> 0:25:52.000 what where else they can go. So they were serving 0:25:52.040 --> 0:25:54.640 their purpose. Like the Wall Street Journal didn't have at 0:25:54.640 --> 0:25:58.080 that time five people who could write markets blogs. So 0:25:58.359 --> 0:26:02.680 we became the ben fish areas of that vacuum, and 0:26:03.200 --> 0:26:04.800 all of a sudden I start getting called from the 0:26:04.800 --> 0:26:08.679 Wall Street Journal. They're doing video. Kelly Evans is like, 0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:11.560 I don't know, twenty three years old, and she is 0:26:11.680 --> 0:26:15.880 like their lead markets, you know, daily blogger, and she's 0:26:15.880 --> 0:26:18.439 doing video, and she's like, hey, I don't know if 0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:20.199 they're going to allow me to do this, but I 0:26:20.240 --> 0:26:23.920 asked them if I could bring you on and let's 0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:26.680 see what happens. So all of a sudden, I start 0:26:26.720 --> 0:26:30.720 getting calls from Bloomberg and then of course, like eventually 0:26:30.760 --> 0:26:35.200 CNBC calls and they're like, here's the deal. We're talking 0:26:35.240 --> 0:26:38.520 about your blog posts every morning. Are you normal? Like 0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:42.040 we put you on because at that time, bloggers were 0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:44.199 a little bit scary, and there were some scary guys 0:26:45.280 --> 0:26:47.440 you know, on Twitter and writing about finance that ended 0:26:47.520 --> 0:26:51.720 up becoming, you know, obviously these people in maniacs. So 0:26:51.760 --> 0:26:55.040 I'm like, no, I'm normal. I'm working in the industry, 0:26:55.119 --> 0:26:58.840 I'm Series sixty five, I'm registered, I'm overseen by the SEC. 0:26:58.920 --> 0:27:01.240 I have a wife and kids. I'm not gonna I'm 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:04.280 not gonna come on the air and embarrass anyone. So 0:27:04.359 --> 0:27:08.240 I guess like I had this progression, uh, and I'd 0:27:08.280 --> 0:27:10.760 done enough that people were like, all right, this guy's good. 0:27:11.280 --> 0:27:13.840 And so that's That's really how like the media thing, 0:27:14.320 --> 0:27:17.160 the origin of the media thing happened. It it was 0:27:17.400 --> 0:27:20.800 it was Look, there was a show you guys probably remember. 0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:23.879 It was a show that Fox Business used to tape 0:27:24.160 --> 0:27:28.520 from the lobby the bar pulling Bear at the Waldorf Historia. 0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:32.600 Remember that, Yeah, I remember, all right. 0:27:32.680 --> 0:27:36.320 So it's it's Cody Willard and Eric Bolling and Eric 0:27:36.359 --> 0:27:39.880 Bolling and they're the hosts and they every day, this 0:27:39.920 --> 0:27:41.560 is five days a week. I can't even believe this 0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:45.320 went on. This is seven, this is eight and nine 0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:50.560 every day in the bar at the Waldorf Astoria. They 0:27:50.600 --> 0:27:54.000 set up a TV studio. There are regular people eating 0:27:54.040 --> 0:27:57.120 steaks and drinking in the background, and they did this 0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:00.399 like happy hour show. So they were invited me to 0:28:00.400 --> 0:28:02.000 come down and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna be on 0:28:02.040 --> 0:28:04.480 Fox Business. And then I find out they're like, no, no, no, 0:28:04.480 --> 0:28:06.960 you're not going to be on. You're a blogger. We 0:28:07.119 --> 0:28:09.520 just want you to sit on set and do a 0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:14.040 blog post about the show. And I'm like, well, I'm like, oh, 0:28:14.520 --> 0:28:15.040 I'll show you. 0:28:15.320 --> 0:28:16.680 It's a mistake. 0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:20.600 That's just so like there's something about that that's like 0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:24.119 so perfect. Like two thousand and nine, traditional media trying 0:28:24.119 --> 0:28:25.560 to figure got to do something. 0:28:25.520 --> 0:28:29.959 But this is exactly it. So I I failed the 0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:32.960 normality test, but I think it like it speaks to 0:28:33.080 --> 0:28:36.879 the uncertainty of the moment and how traditional media was 0:28:36.920 --> 0:28:40.800 sort of grappling with this new cast of characters, which 0:28:40.880 --> 0:28:43.400 is like when I was at the FT at the time, 0:28:44.040 --> 0:28:47.960 there was a sense internally that the people on ft Alphaville, 0:28:47.960 --> 0:28:50.880 who were writing good stuff and doing good analysis, should 0:28:50.960 --> 0:28:54.160 have some sort of video format. And then we I 0:28:54.200 --> 0:28:58.440 remember we shot like an initial version of what the 0:28:58.520 --> 0:29:01.720 video could be, and the feedback from our video team 0:29:01.880 --> 0:29:04.920 came back that we were so weird and off putting 0:29:05.120 --> 0:29:08.080 on camera that we should be played by puppets. 0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:09.800 That was an actual suggestion. 0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:13.200 It's funny because I think like if I like there 0:29:13.240 --> 0:29:15.880 was this view that like the bloggers were like these 0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:19.560 weird like sort of like caged wild animals, and like 0:29:20.000 --> 0:29:21.880 I remember going to a conference like two thousand and seven, 0:29:22.040 --> 0:29:23.560 it was a tech conference, it was a little bit 0:29:23.560 --> 0:29:27.440 before and they had like this like special like blogger bullpen, 0:29:27.560 --> 0:29:31.400 like they separated us from the other journalists. But there 0:29:31.480 --> 0:29:34.720 was like but like they get a little space because 0:29:34.760 --> 0:29:36.760 we know they're cool and they're doing something, and so 0:29:36.800 --> 0:29:39.080 they get their own seats. But they're like different and 0:29:39.120 --> 0:29:41.200 they have to be sort of segregated from the other 0:29:41.320 --> 0:29:41.840 people there. 0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:43.880 That was a weird There was There was a there 0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:46.720 was a guy on the air named Dennis Neil and 0:29:47.240 --> 0:29:52.880 he would pick fights with bloggers from the air. So 0:29:52.960 --> 0:29:54.360 he was I don't know what time he was. He 0:29:54.480 --> 0:29:56.400 was on CNBC. I don't know what time his show 0:29:56.520 --> 0:29:59.280 was or whatever, but he had this recurring I'm not 0:29:59.280 --> 0:30:03.080 even kidding, he had a recurring segment called blog you, 0:30:04.240 --> 0:30:06.920 and he would this is all true, you could look 0:30:06.920 --> 0:30:10.320 this up. He would he he would pick a different 0:30:10.640 --> 0:30:14.880 blogger who was like prominent on Twitter each time they 0:30:14.880 --> 0:30:17.840 did the segment and like and like go off on 0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:22.000 this person. And then they started booking the bloggers onto 0:30:22.040 --> 0:30:24.920 his show for like a live debate. It was guys, 0:30:25.000 --> 0:30:28.200 it was wild and I forget the guy's name. One 0:30:28.200 --> 0:30:31.000 guy was just a complete lunatic and on the air 0:30:31.760 --> 0:30:35.960 just went nuts on Dennis Neil. I don't I think 0:30:36.000 --> 0:30:38.239 a month later, Dennis Neil was off the air, and 0:30:38.280 --> 0:30:44.120 the bloggers won. The bloggers won, because yeah, so by 0:30:44.200 --> 0:30:49.960 blog you by twenty ten, every network Bloomberg, Fox, Business, CNBC, CNN, 0:30:50.080 --> 0:30:52.760 anyone covering the market. If you would just turn on 0:30:52.800 --> 0:30:55.200 the TV and watch for an hour, you would see 0:30:55.200 --> 0:30:58.080 somebody that started off as a blogger. So I think 0:30:58.320 --> 0:31:01.600 the freaks one and and you know again like by 0:31:01.720 --> 0:31:04.920 by now it's it's fifteen years later, by now we're 0:31:05.240 --> 0:31:09.040 the establishment. But in that time there were Tracy. You're 0:31:09.080 --> 0:31:11.880 absolutely right, there was like a red line these are 0:31:12.200 --> 0:31:17.000 these are journalists or TV people and these are blog freaks. 0:31:17.200 --> 0:31:20.800 And you know, of course that's that's it's funny now, 0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:24.160 but like that's that's how it was, and crossing over. 0:31:24.400 --> 0:31:28.720 So Barry had crossed over. Barry was on Cudlow like 0:31:28.800 --> 0:31:30.920 three nights a week at the at the peak of 0:31:30.960 --> 0:31:34.240 the crisis, Cudlow had an amazing show at seven I 0:31:34.280 --> 0:31:36.520 think it was at seven o'clock on CNBC every night, 0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:41.040 and it was all chief strategists and economists and some politicians, 0:31:41.120 --> 0:31:43.640 and Barry was on there almost every night, and he 0:31:43.680 --> 0:31:46.479 was a regular and he was like a blueprint of 0:31:46.560 --> 0:31:49.680 how you can go from being a blogger to being 0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:51.520 a mainstream commentator. 0:32:07.440 --> 0:32:10.880 What are the pros and cons of running you know, 0:32:11.080 --> 0:32:16.640 the investment firm, the advisory alongside the media. So, you know, 0:32:16.720 --> 0:32:20.760 I imagine you get there, there's promotional opportunities, you get your 0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:23.840 thoughts out there and some of your ideas. But on 0:32:23.880 --> 0:32:27.640 the other hand, it must take some time. And also 0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:30.520 I can imagine that you know, if you put your 0:32:30.600 --> 0:32:33.360 thoughts out there, some of those inevitably are going to 0:32:33.400 --> 0:32:37.240 be mistakes that people can like bring up and criticize. 0:32:37.480 --> 0:32:39.640 So I'm just wondering how you think about like the 0:32:39.720 --> 0:32:42.480 upsides and the downsides of doing those two things. 0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:47.320 You have to decide that you are willing to be 0:32:47.360 --> 0:32:51.880 publicly wrong and that you are going to have the 0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:54.840 humility that when you're wrong, you're going to turn that 0:32:54.880 --> 0:32:58.640 into content. And some of the most popular blog posts 0:32:58.760 --> 0:33:02.240 of that era not just me, everybody, Here's why I 0:33:02.280 --> 0:33:06.920 got blank wrong. Now, not everybody went that way. There 0:33:06.920 --> 0:33:10.720 are some people that doubled down, tripled down, quadrupled down 0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:12.640 on what they were wrong about and never let it go. 0:33:13.160 --> 0:33:17.640 There are some people that are like macroeconomic geniuses, and 0:33:17.680 --> 0:33:20.360 they're still calling for the double dip recession from twenty 0:33:20.400 --> 0:33:24.280 eleven that never happened. It's coming any day now. But 0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:27.719 I think I think the bet that you had to 0:33:27.720 --> 0:33:32.080 make was that by being humble and by owning your 0:33:32.120 --> 0:33:35.440 mistakes and maybe even turning them into an entertaining way 0:33:35.480 --> 0:33:38.320 to learn something, that the audience would come along with 0:33:38.360 --> 0:33:41.240 you for the ride. And a lot of us did that. 0:33:41.360 --> 0:33:43.240 This is not something I came up with on my own. 0:33:43.680 --> 0:33:49.160 I watched people that I respect own their errors, and 0:33:50.000 --> 0:33:53.239 you know, people like Doug cass who was writing at 0:33:53.240 --> 0:33:56.880 the street dot com. This guy's buying a stock in 0:33:56.880 --> 0:33:59.120 the morning and writing a column about how he's bullish, 0:33:59.120 --> 0:34:01.280 and then telling it in the afternoon and the next 0:34:01.320 --> 0:34:03.520 day he's shorting it. So he had like a lot 0:34:03.560 --> 0:34:07.080 of flexibility in how he thought. So I looked at 0:34:07.120 --> 0:34:09.120 that and I said, all right, So Doug has a 0:34:09.160 --> 0:34:12.080 lot of respect from people all over the street, and 0:34:12.680 --> 0:34:15.759 he's saying, I bought this thing, I'm wrong, it's down, 0:34:15.760 --> 0:34:18.560 I'm gonna sell now. I don't personally believe in invest 0:34:18.560 --> 0:34:20.560 in that way. I don't think that people should be 0:34:20.680 --> 0:34:25.520 frantically switching back and forth bull bear, bull bear, But 0:34:25.760 --> 0:34:29.840 it showed me that you can be open and honest 0:34:29.880 --> 0:34:32.520 with your audience and they will respect you more for it, 0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:37.759 rather than hiding there was as the first show of 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:42.200 it's kind on on CNBC was Fast Money and one 0:34:42.200 --> 0:34:44.960 of the original cast members it doesn't matter who, and 0:34:45.000 --> 0:34:47.239 it's so long ago, one of the original cast members. 0:34:47.280 --> 0:34:50.120 I remember the producer telling me if he was wrong 0:34:50.120 --> 0:34:52.480 about a stock on like Tuesday night, he wouldn't show 0:34:52.560 --> 0:34:56.960 up on Wednesday. Like, I'm not coming, sorry, I can't 0:34:57.000 --> 0:34:59.960 make the show tonight. So like you could do you could? 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:01.879 I do that for a few months, but it's gonna 0:35:01.880 --> 0:35:04.480 wear really thin with the audience. So I think having 0:35:04.480 --> 0:35:07.520 the humility and trying to turn the things you're wrong 0:35:07.560 --> 0:35:10.640 about into teachable moments that's been really powerful, and the 0:35:10.680 --> 0:35:12.880 people that have done that have done very well as 0:35:12.880 --> 0:35:13.320 a result. 0:35:14.040 --> 0:35:16.360 We you know, like we could turn that. We could 0:35:16.400 --> 0:35:20.080 just talk forever about this and about that era because 0:35:20.120 --> 0:35:23.080 we're barely scratching their service. No, I just appreciate you 0:35:23.160 --> 0:35:25.319 so much reminding me of some of the hilarious things 0:35:25.360 --> 0:35:27.960 that we're going on. I had totally forgotten about that 0:35:28.120 --> 0:35:31.600 show in the bar, but I remember it the blog 0:35:31.680 --> 0:35:32.120 use segment. 0:35:32.160 --> 0:35:32.640 I remember it. 0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:36.480 This is like great stuff and again memory Lane stuff. 0:35:36.560 --> 0:35:38.440 I'm all about it. There are so many other things 0:35:38.880 --> 0:35:42.920 if we zoom ahead, you know, right now twenty twenty four, 0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:47.000 things have changed, you know, like finance Twitter isn't what 0:35:47.120 --> 0:35:50.520 it was, Blogging is different. But things are always evolving, 0:35:50.560 --> 0:35:52.759 and I like to you know, I get anxious about like, 0:35:52.880 --> 0:35:55.080 oh am, I like gonna get stuck in a current 0:35:55.120 --> 0:35:59.160 way of doing things, and then the way people consume 0:35:59.239 --> 0:36:01.560 financial and from will change. Well, I'd be able to 0:36:01.560 --> 0:36:03.399 pivot on time. I like to think I've done an 0:36:03.440 --> 0:36:06.160 okay of sort of like figuring out when to try 0:36:06.239 --> 0:36:09.120 new things and drop old formats. Do you get anxious 0:36:09.200 --> 0:36:12.120 about that yourself? The fact that you know so many 0:36:12.120 --> 0:36:15.359 different new platforms and like trying to you know, worry 0:36:15.400 --> 0:36:17.520 about getting stuck or like what do you think is 0:36:17.520 --> 0:36:19.760 happening right now in finance media? 0:36:19.840 --> 0:36:22.000 So I think I was actually I was talking to 0:36:22.920 --> 0:36:24.960 I was talking to Michael Batnic about this yesterday, so 0:36:24.960 --> 0:36:28.000 it's fresh in my mind. I think in that era 0:36:28.320 --> 0:36:31.440 and for about ten years, yeah, Twitter was the most 0:36:31.520 --> 0:36:36.160 essential platform for making sure that if you took the 0:36:36.200 --> 0:36:39.719 time to write something and put your thoughts out there 0:36:39.760 --> 0:36:42.760 and do the research, that is required when you're writing, 0:36:43.200 --> 0:36:46.160 like if you really put effort into a piece of content, 0:36:46.800 --> 0:36:49.239 Twitter was the way that you could make sure there 0:36:49.280 --> 0:36:53.040 would be distribution. Yeah. Less so Facebook because the pros 0:36:53.040 --> 0:36:55.400 aren't really spending their days on there and it's not 0:36:55.680 --> 0:36:58.239 urgent enough, it doesn't move fast enough. But tweet deck 0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:02.600 was the way that you distributed content, and it was 0:37:02.680 --> 0:37:07.879 extremely powerful because if what you did was good, or 0:37:08.160 --> 0:37:10.759 if people hated it or whatever, if it struck any 0:37:10.840 --> 0:37:15.080 kind of chord, the amplification in the form of retweets 0:37:15.719 --> 0:37:19.239 was more powerful than the Wall Street Journal dot Com 0:37:19.280 --> 0:37:23.040 linking to you, because it was like everybody was resharing 0:37:23.080 --> 0:37:25.560 the best four or five things that had been written 0:37:25.640 --> 0:37:28.880 that day. So this guy, Tatus Wisconsa, he works with 0:37:28.960 --> 0:37:31.960 us now, he's our director of investor Education. He had 0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:34.839 a blog called Abnormal Returns and it was ground zero 0:37:35.320 --> 0:37:37.719 for daily financial commentation. 0:37:37.960 --> 0:37:40.239 That was actually like the first thing you would look 0:37:40.280 --> 0:37:42.120 at when you got into the office in the morning. 0:37:42.160 --> 0:37:45.400 I remember now Tatus is the librarian of finance Twitter. 0:37:45.480 --> 0:37:49.160 If somebody wrote something, he knew it. He read everyone, 0:37:49.280 --> 0:37:53.319 He read everything, and he curated the best ten to 0:37:53.360 --> 0:37:55.719 fifteen things that had been written each day. He did 0:37:55.719 --> 0:37:57.359 it five days a week, did it for more than 0:37:57.400 --> 0:38:00.680 ten years. He's still doing it. And if you made 0:38:00.719 --> 0:38:05.040 Tatus's site, you won. Like that means what you wrote 0:38:05.120 --> 0:38:09.640 that day was legit. That would then be complimented by 0:38:09.680 --> 0:38:13.840 what would happen on Twitter because everyone was reading abnormal returns. 0:38:14.200 --> 0:38:18.319 And there were other notable link fests each day. Deal 0:38:18.320 --> 0:38:21.839 Breaker had one that Best Levin and Matt Levigne worked on, 0:38:22.080 --> 0:38:24.160 and there were a few others. But like that was 0:38:24.280 --> 0:38:29.120 basically like the mixtape that you know, like the rappers 0:38:29.120 --> 0:38:31.239 all wanted to get on the DJ Clu mixtape, which 0:38:31.239 --> 0:38:34.400 would then be sold on the on Canal Street in Chinatown, 0:38:34.480 --> 0:38:37.160 and that's how DJs from around the country would know 0:38:37.200 --> 0:38:40.239 that something is hot. This was very similar, and then 0:38:40.280 --> 0:38:43.680 Twitter would just amplify it and really enable something to 0:38:43.719 --> 0:38:46.880 go viral. That all changed. The first thing that happened 0:38:46.920 --> 0:38:51.239 is the Wall Street Journal and CNBC dot Com and 0:38:51.280 --> 0:38:57.040 even and Yahoo Finance, the distribution channels, they started hiring 0:38:57.080 --> 0:39:00.759 their own bloggers and they stopped linking out, so now 0:39:00.760 --> 0:39:03.479 they never link out. But I remember that taking place, 0:39:03.520 --> 0:39:04.719 and then it's all of a sudden, like all right, 0:39:04.760 --> 0:39:06.600 the mainstream media is no longer going to link out, 0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:08.799 but you still had to have normal returns, and you 0:39:08.880 --> 0:39:12.200 still had Twitter. What's changed in the last few years 0:39:12.280 --> 0:39:16.160 is that Twitter is no longer a worthwhile distribution platform. 0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:20.840 Things go viral if they are really negative or violent 0:39:21.239 --> 0:39:26.440 or racist, or somebody just being piled on for an opinion. 0:39:26.960 --> 0:39:31.399 That's not the climate that it used to be when 0:39:31.440 --> 0:39:34.640 people were trying to share information and debate topics. Now 0:39:34.680 --> 0:39:39.040 they debate personalities. They hate Chamoth or they hate Mark 0:39:39.080 --> 0:39:41.920 Cuban today and then the next day, like you know, 0:39:42.000 --> 0:39:45.440 so somebody got filmed stumbling out of a bar drunk. 0:39:46.239 --> 0:39:49.640 It's not a platform anymore where you could write something 0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:52.279 amazing and anyone's going to pay attention to it. And 0:39:52.360 --> 0:39:57.120 finance Twitter, finance Twitter is a vertical is really small 0:39:57.600 --> 0:39:59.839 within the context of Twitter. He's talked to this guy, 0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:03.680 Aard Podnos, who was quote unquote in charge of finance 0:40:03.760 --> 0:40:08.160 Twitter for Twitter. It was it was one guy overseeing 0:40:08.200 --> 0:40:10.640 what all of us were doing. It was not like 0:40:10.760 --> 0:40:12.240 sports or celebrity. 0:40:11.840 --> 0:40:14.760 Call what does that mean? He was in charge. 0:40:15.080 --> 0:40:17.280 I think that it's awesome. One of my favorite people 0:40:17.360 --> 0:40:22.399 Twitter had him monitor finance Twitter. So anything that had 0:40:22.400 --> 0:40:25.320 a ticker or you know, all the Wall Street people 0:40:25.360 --> 0:40:28.440 that were now tweeting. His job was to oversee what 0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:31.160 people were saying and try to make it helpful for 0:40:31.200 --> 0:40:34.080 the rest of Twitter users to find. 0:40:35.080 --> 0:40:38.040 Yeah, like all the cash tags and all the things 0:40:38.120 --> 0:40:39.880 that sort of formalize it. I don't know. 0:40:40.040 --> 0:40:44.520 So it's over. So it's over, and it's okay. Like 0:40:44.560 --> 0:40:47.600 things things aren't meant to less forever, Like Saturday Night 0:40:47.640 --> 0:40:50.799 Live on the air for fifty years is an anomaly. 0:40:51.320 --> 0:40:54.200 Most things don't go on for more than three or 0:40:54.239 --> 0:40:57.120 four years. So I think you guys correct me if 0:40:57.120 --> 0:41:01.520 I'm wrong. I think peak finance Twitter is let's say, 0:41:01.560 --> 0:41:06.200 twenty ten to twenty twenty. And then in twenty twenty 0:41:06.640 --> 0:41:11.000 things really broke down and it became more of like 0:41:11.040 --> 0:41:15.440 a platform for venting rage and me too, and you know, 0:41:16.040 --> 0:41:21.200 posting disturbing video clips, and it just became less about communities. 0:41:21.760 --> 0:41:24.200 And that's around the time that I think it lost 0:41:24.200 --> 0:41:25.400 its relevance for finance. 0:41:25.960 --> 0:41:28.120 Joe and I were talking about this the other day actually, 0:41:28.120 --> 0:41:31.680 but I think the thing that's missing from Twitter, other 0:41:31.760 --> 0:41:36.000 than like a good feeling among human beings, is sincerity 0:41:36.200 --> 0:41:38.879 and like earnestness. That's kind of what bothers me about 0:41:38.920 --> 0:41:42.120 it is like everything is just about like making the 0:41:42.160 --> 0:41:46.480 best joke that you possibly can, and there's no room 0:41:46.560 --> 0:41:50.160 for like earnestness, Bring back earnestness. 0:41:50.160 --> 0:41:55.000 I liked, well, I like the jokes, but what killed 0:41:55.080 --> 0:41:59.840 what I'm describing is the quote tweet. So not every innovation, 0:42:00.239 --> 0:42:04.000 not every innovation is good. So there was a time 0:42:04.280 --> 0:42:07.839 when if somebody said something smart or posted a great chart, 0:42:08.200 --> 0:42:13.520 you would copy paste that tweet and you would and 0:42:13.560 --> 0:42:16.440 you would repost it and you would say via at 0:42:16.480 --> 0:42:21.080 whoever it was, or you would do a manual, or 0:42:21.120 --> 0:42:24.560 you would do RT. You would write RT, which would 0:42:24.600 --> 0:42:27.640 tell everyone, this is not my original thought, I'm retweeting 0:42:27.640 --> 0:42:31.839 this person. Then they built a product that was a 0:42:31.920 --> 0:42:34.839 quote tweet where you could hit a button and say, 0:42:34.880 --> 0:42:37.640 I want to comment on this above the person's tweet, 0:42:38.040 --> 0:42:42.799 and that facilitated a wave of dunking, and dunking is 0:42:42.800 --> 0:42:45.920 basically like, look, how dumb this person is. So I 0:42:45.960 --> 0:42:48.360 know that there were people that used it positively also, 0:42:48.520 --> 0:42:51.280 but I'm just saying like that was something that Twitter 0:42:51.360 --> 0:42:55.640 built that had a very adverse consequence on the community, 0:42:56.239 --> 0:43:00.000 and it just it devolved into worse than high school. 0:43:00.640 --> 0:43:04.240 You obviously like worked like crazy. You know, you've worked 0:43:04.239 --> 0:43:07.080 like an insane person over the last several years. Both 0:43:07.120 --> 0:43:10.759 Tracy and I have as well. Do you, like, do 0:43:10.800 --> 0:43:13.560 you ever think about slowing down and like taking time 0:43:13.719 --> 0:43:15.919 savoring things like I'm taking my son to a football game. 0:43:15.960 --> 0:43:18.520 I wish I had done more this weekend. I wish 0:43:18.560 --> 0:43:20.279 I had done you know, I had more time, and 0:43:20.560 --> 0:43:23.000 sometimes like, oh, should I have like worked less and 0:43:23.080 --> 0:43:25.360 done more? Stuff like that? Do you ever like have 0:43:25.480 --> 0:43:28.720 anxiety about like, you know, do you have two big 0:43:29.280 --> 0:43:31.600 kind of components of your job. You're very public and stuff. 0:43:31.600 --> 0:43:34.400 Do you ever feel like, oh, slowing down or how 0:43:34.480 --> 0:43:36.120 much longer can you do it? Stuff like that? 0:43:36.520 --> 0:43:39.480 I mean I think about I think about it, but 0:43:39.480 --> 0:43:42.640 then I don't do it. Yeah, that's right. Somebody told 0:43:42.680 --> 0:43:47.239 me you work as though somebody took something away from 0:43:47.280 --> 0:43:50.640 you and you're you're fighting to get it back. Like 0:43:50.680 --> 0:43:53.680 that was their impression of my I don't want to 0:43:53.680 --> 0:43:56.560 say work ethic like I'm like this, like like like 0:43:56.600 --> 0:43:59.560 I'm in the coal mines. I love what I do. Yeah, 0:43:59.680 --> 0:44:03.960 but that I think the pace and the intensity of 0:44:04.120 --> 0:44:06.919 what I've done and what I still do to this day, 0:44:07.120 --> 0:44:12.880 the amount, the volume, and the urgency it it looks 0:44:12.920 --> 0:44:15.600 like it looks like a dog who somebody pulled their 0:44:15.640 --> 0:44:18.480 toy away from them. And I don't know if that's 0:44:18.520 --> 0:44:22.480 inherent to my personality or if you know. One of 0:44:22.520 --> 0:44:24.440 the things I talk about in the new book is 0:44:24.840 --> 0:44:29.640 I there was no safety net. So I never stopped working. 0:44:29.719 --> 0:44:31.399 I never had a period of time where I didn't 0:44:31.400 --> 0:44:33.200 have a job. I went from one thing to another 0:44:33.200 --> 0:44:36.279 thing to another thing because I was terrified of what 0:44:36.400 --> 0:44:39.920 happens if I stop, Like I'm nobody, nobody needs me, 0:44:40.440 --> 0:44:42.680 so I have to stay used. I have to stay useful, 0:44:43.120 --> 0:44:46.400 and I have to so there might be equal parts 0:44:46.480 --> 0:44:51.000 ambition and fear, because if there's no net underneath you, 0:44:51.040 --> 0:44:53.480 when you're on a tightrope, what do you don't stop walking? 0:44:54.160 --> 0:44:56.080 You got you gotta keep walking to the end of 0:44:56.120 --> 0:44:57.880 the tightrope. And by the way, there's no end in sight. 0:44:57.920 --> 0:44:59.319 I don't know where it ends, but I think that's 0:44:59.360 --> 0:45:03.520 probably the best way to describe the why. And it's subconscious. 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:05.440 I don't think about it every day. I just I 0:45:06.200 --> 0:45:09.359 don't stop because I don't want to stop. I love 0:45:09.400 --> 0:45:11.839 what I do and I think I'm helping people. But 0:45:11.920 --> 0:45:15.920 also I'm afraid of what happens if I stop, Like 0:45:16.080 --> 0:45:18.239 what happens if I fall what if I fall off? 0:45:18.280 --> 0:45:22.080 So that's probably the driving thing. But I don't want 0:45:22.080 --> 0:45:25.040 to give people the impression that I did not spend 0:45:25.080 --> 0:45:29.000 the last eighteen years raising my children and you know, 0:45:29.080 --> 0:45:33.800 building a home, because I really think that I've given 0:45:33.800 --> 0:45:37.759 the circumstances where I started in my profession. I think 0:45:37.800 --> 0:45:42.080 I obviously overachieved relative to you know, what most people 0:45:42.120 --> 0:45:45.399 would have said is my ceiling. And I think I've 0:45:45.400 --> 0:45:47.640 overachieved on the family side as well. Thank God. I 0:45:47.680 --> 0:45:50.800 have a daughter who started college this fall. I have 0:45:50.880 --> 0:45:53.080 another kid in high school, and you know, I like 0:45:53.120 --> 0:45:54.840 to say that everything I do is for them, but 0:45:55.000 --> 0:45:58.880 it's selfishly. It's my own insecurity that drives me. And 0:45:58.960 --> 0:46:01.600 I don't know when that stops. Joe made me, maybe 0:46:01.680 --> 0:46:03.520 talked to me. In five years, maybe I'll feel differently. 0:46:03.560 --> 0:46:03.920 I don't know. 0:46:04.000 --> 0:46:07.760 Yeah, I feel like ambition and anxiety are the true 0:46:07.840 --> 0:46:10.240 drivers of productivity and tweets. 0:46:10.400 --> 0:46:13.120 Probably Josh Brown, this was such a blast. I'm so 0:46:13.160 --> 0:46:16.080 glad we made this happen, and I'm looking forward to 0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:19.040 seeing you in just over a week at your conference 0:46:19.080 --> 0:46:21.120 out in Newport when when. 0:46:21.000 --> 0:46:23.880 You guys, you guys were a highlight last year and 0:46:23.920 --> 0:46:25.799 you'll be a highlight again this year. People are so 0:46:25.880 --> 0:46:27.799 excited when they see Joe and Tracy. 0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:44.600 Too, kind man, Tracy, that whole conversation is worth it, 0:46:44.719 --> 0:46:47.600 just to be reminded of the blog you segment un 0:46:47.640 --> 0:46:52.640 CNBC and the the the the I still can't believe 0:46:52.680 --> 0:46:56.239 that was real, the show in the bar, but I 0:46:56.280 --> 0:46:58.160 remember it, and I think I was, like I was 0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:00.000 there like once for a taping or for a party 0:47:00.160 --> 0:47:01.400 for it, so man. 0:47:01.239 --> 0:47:01.879 It really well. 0:47:01.920 --> 0:47:05.520 Also, weird time you reminded me with that bullpen comment, 0:47:05.840 --> 0:47:11.040 like bloggers truly were segregated from everyone else. I remember, 0:47:11.080 --> 0:47:15.480 do you remember going into Goldman Sachs one time because 0:47:15.520 --> 0:47:18.760 they had like a special event for Lloyd Blank Fine 0:47:18.880 --> 0:47:23.680 to talk to to talk about Oh yeah, you. 0:47:23.680 --> 0:47:27.120 Kind of if you want. Although I I. 0:47:26.120 --> 0:47:30.000 I quibble with some of your some of your narration, 0:47:30.080 --> 0:47:30.520 but yeah. 0:47:31.360 --> 0:47:33.160 You know it might have been off the record, so 0:47:33.239 --> 0:47:35.120 I won't Yeah, okay go into details. 0:47:35.400 --> 0:47:37.000 Yes, but yes, the. 0:47:36.960 --> 0:47:40.520 Bloggers were treated like these like weird special creatures, like 0:47:40.600 --> 0:47:43.120 kind of alien, Like everyone knew they were interesting and 0:47:43.200 --> 0:47:45.479 kind of cool. And doing something, but like they weren't 0:47:45.520 --> 0:47:48.160 really the same, and all the traditional media outlets are 0:47:48.200 --> 0:47:50.120 like how do we deal with them? And it was 0:47:50.200 --> 0:47:51.879 very weird times, it was. 0:47:52.200 --> 0:47:55.000 But that was so much fun with Josh and I 0:47:55.040 --> 0:47:59.920 think his his career like to some extent, has mirrored 0:48:00.280 --> 0:48:04.600 the evolution of financial media, I think. And one of 0:48:04.600 --> 0:48:08.720 the few benefits perhaps of getting older is that we've 0:48:08.760 --> 0:48:12.840 been in financial journalism for I don't know, like almost 0:48:12.840 --> 0:48:15.640 twenty years now. Yeah, does that sound right? And so 0:48:16.000 --> 0:48:18.759 some of the people that we were, you know, sort 0:48:18.800 --> 0:48:23.040 of growing up with have gone on to like massive success, 0:48:23.120 --> 0:48:24.479 and Josh is definitely one. 0:48:24.400 --> 0:48:26.080 Of them, and it's well deserved, totally. 0:48:26.560 --> 0:48:27.359 Shall we leave it there. 0:48:27.440 --> 0:48:27.920 Let's leave it. 0:48:27.920 --> 0:48:28.800 There, all right? 0:48:28.920 --> 0:48:31.560 This has been another episode of the Odd Loots podcast. 0:48:31.680 --> 0:48:35.000 I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. 0:48:34.920 --> 0:48:37.000 And I'm Joe Wysn't though. You can follow me at 0:48:37.000 --> 0:48:41.600 the Stalwart. Follow Josh on Instagram. He has, wisely, I think, 0:48:41.719 --> 0:48:46.880 probably abandoned us on the other side Downtown Josh Brown. 0:48:47.160 --> 0:48:51.000 Follow our producers Carman Rodriguez at Carman Ermann, Dashel Bennett 0:48:51.000 --> 0:48:53.960 at Dashbot, and Cal Brooks at Cal Brooks. Thank you 0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:57.120 to our producer Moses Ondem. For more Oddlots content, go 0:48:57.120 --> 0:48:59.840 to Bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots, where we have transcripts, 0:49:00.040 --> 0:49:02.399 blog and a newsletter and you can chat about all 0:49:02.400 --> 0:49:05.240 of these topics with fellow listeners twenty four to seven 0:49:05.280 --> 0:49:08.480 in our discord discord dot gg slash upline. 0:49:08.880 --> 0:49:11.600 And if you enjoy Odd Thoughts, if you like it 0:49:11.680 --> 0:49:15.520 when we indulge ourselves in some financial media naval gazing, 0:49:15.600 --> 0:49:18.360 then please leave us a positive review on your favorite 0:49:18.400 --> 0:49:22.360 podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, 0:49:22.440 --> 0:49:24.919 you can listen to all of our episodes. 0:49:24.400 --> 0:49:25.720 Absolutely ad free. 0:49:25.880 --> 0:49:28.080 All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel 0:49:28.120 --> 0:49:31.080 on Apple Podcasts and then follow the instructions there. 0:49:31.480 --> 0:49:32.280 Thanks for listening.