1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 2 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 3 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: I'm Joe Wisenthal. 4 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 3: And I'm Tracy Alloway. 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 2: Tracy, I know I'm biased, We're probably biased. I'm certainly biased. 6 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 4: Speak for yourself, Joe, I myself have no emotions. That's 7 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 4: for our opinions about anything. 8 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 3: That's why I host a podcast. 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: That's right, we're the question askers, we're not the answers. 10 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: But I am sort of biased about anyone who sort 11 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 2: of grew up in financial media in like the two 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: thousand and eight, two thousand and nine era, two thousand 13 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: and seven. You know, like we're just a different breed. 14 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 2: We're just a different we're just a little cut above. 15 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 4: I think it was definitely a moment in financial media 16 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 4: that I think has yet to be recaptured because there 17 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 4: were two things that were happening simultaneously. So one you 18 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 4: had the financial crisis where everything was going haywire, and 19 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 4: it was all going haywire in a relatively new way. Yes, 20 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 4: people had to suddenly learn what synthetic CDOs were, how 21 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 4: the revered the show, Okay, how the repo market worked. 22 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 4: Didn't learn all of that, and then at the same time, 23 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 4: you had like a big format change because you had 24 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 4: all these blogs that suddenly burst out of nowhere. And 25 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 4: at that time, the combination of like the new blogging 26 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 4: format plus the news cycle itself, which was so weird 27 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 4: and so fast paced, really meant that blogs were kind 28 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 4: of the perfect platform to cover the financial crisis. They 29 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 4: had an edge at that time. And I feel again 30 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 4: to your point, probably a bit of personal bias there, 31 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 4: but like I feel like it was a very special moment. 32 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: It was you nailed it exactly. It was the two 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: things happening at once that made that a distinct time, 34 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: which is right, all this stuff was happening, and there 35 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 2: were just new formats, and then you know, Twitter came 36 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 2: around then, so, uh do you know, and I joined 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: I tweet a lot. Do you know when I joined Twitter? 38 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 5: Uh? 39 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 4: Two thousand and nine, No. 40 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: March two thousand and eight, Okay, And I was at 41 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 2: south By Southwest when bear Sterns collapsed, and and then 42 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 2: you know, it was before everyone knew that the world 43 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: was totally melting down. But also then I remembered I 44 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 2: have like distinct memories of that time because you know, 45 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 2: JP Morgan made that two dollars per share offer for 46 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: bear Sterns, and like a week before bear Sterns have 47 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 2: been trading at like sixty or something like that. And 48 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 2: I very distinctly remember a few people on Twitter talking 49 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 2: about like know that because people thought there was a typo, 50 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 2: remember like oh, it must be twenty or something like that. 51 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: And I saw these voices who actually knew what they 52 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: were talking about, like, no, this two dollars makes sense, 53 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: this is a real number, et cetera. Eventually, I think 54 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: they bought them for like ten dollars a share because 55 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 2: the government pressured them. But that was the first place 56 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: it was like I was getting information from people who 57 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 2: knew what they were talking about faster and sharper than 58 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 2: I was getting any other platform. 59 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 3: And who were those people too? 60 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 2: I think one of them was Howard Lindzen and I 61 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: think another one was Roger Ehrenberg, which were like two 62 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 2: of the names who are like, you know based, But anyway, 63 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 2: there were many other names, including someone we're going to 64 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: talk to right now. 65 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 3: I'm very excited. 66 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 4: So the person we're about to speak to, I remember 67 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 4: linking to his stuff right when I started financial blogging, 68 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 4: which was September two thousand and eight on ft Alphavil 69 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 4: and again the world blowing up around that time, Lehman 70 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 4: collapsing all of that, and I remember constantly linking to 71 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 4: his stuff at the time. 72 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 3: And then the other thing. 73 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 4: This is kind of weird, but the other thing I 74 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 4: associate with our guests. The first time I ever met 75 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 4: him in person was in New York, and that was 76 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 4: the last time I ever drank a blue moon, because 77 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 4: I think I have like three of them. Yeah, yeah, 78 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 4: but it was too much. And ever since then I 79 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 4: never again. No blue moons, but yes, lots of lots 80 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 4: of our guest for sure. 81 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: Well, I'm really excited. I think it's his first time 82 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: coming on the show. We are going to be speaking 83 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 2: to the one and only Josh Brown, a legend. Back 84 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: in the old days, when we were linking to his blog, 85 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 2: it was the reform broker. He son set it that 86 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 2: he's a new he writes a new. 87 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 3: Blue moved on to bigger things. For sure. 88 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 2: We've done too much bigger things, but that was huge. 89 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: He's currently the CEO of Ridholt's Wealth Management. He is 90 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 2: the author of a brand new book You Weren't Supposed 91 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 2: To See That Secrets every investor should know. I'm so excited. 92 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 2: He hosts a popular podcast as well to compound. Josh Brown, 93 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on. 94 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 5: Outlaws, Tracy. I'm drinking a blue moon right now. 95 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 2: That's perfect. 96 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 5: Josh. Do you remember that? 97 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 3: I can deal as long as it's you and not me. 98 00:04:58,279 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 3: That's good. 99 00:04:59,120 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 5: Josh. 100 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 2: Do you remember the where we met the first time? 101 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 2: Do you remember where it was? 102 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 5: I remember? Oh man, you do remember? Okay, I'm going 103 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 5: to take a guess. I remember there was one night 104 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 5: where Scott Bell got all the bloggers together at the 105 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 5: Campbell Apartment on the on the Vanderbilt side of Grand Central, 106 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 5: and that's like a speakeasy bar. And I remember meeting 107 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 5: a lot of people who were writing and tweeting about 108 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 5: markets the first time that night, and I think you 109 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 5: were one of them. I'm not sure, so it was 110 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 5: that night. 111 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 2: My recollection is a little different. I thought we went 112 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 2: to the Michael Jordan's Steakhouse, which is also in Grand 113 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 2: Central and just on the. 114 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 5: We might have done both. 115 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 2: We might have done both, but we both agree. I 116 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 2: think it was probably two thousand and nine Grand Central, 117 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: either in the Campbell Apartment or the Michael Jordan's Steakhouse, 118 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 2: which sadley is no longer there, but yeah, that was 119 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: the first time, and now we're here. 120 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 5: It was a Cambrian explosion of market commentators who were 121 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 5: coming from non traditional market commentary backgrounds prior to that moment, 122 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 5: just to button up what Tracy was saying. Prior to 123 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 5: that moment, most of the people who were commenting on 124 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 5: markets in a big way and were able to get 125 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 5: their views out to the public were coming from Wall 126 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 5: Street or were traditional journalists, and you know, they were 127 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 5: like the public relations firm would book the person on TV, 128 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 5: the person would go on Bloomberg or on CNBC, and 129 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 5: you know, they were like they had pedigree, and they 130 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 5: also had guardrails. They had things that they wouldn't they 131 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 5: weren't able to touch because they were connected to like 132 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 5: a Fortune five hundred company. And then all of a sudden, 133 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 5: this Cambrian explosion on the Internet. All of a sudden, 134 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 5: you've got people amassing large followerships who have no pedigree, 135 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 5: who have no publicist, and who have no guardrails and 136 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 5: are able to say things that you know, other people 137 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 5: would gasp at. But then that became the mainstream, and 138 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 5: then all of a sudden, the media was picking up 139 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 5: those voices rather than the traditional voices that they had 140 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 5: been so accustomed to booking. And I think all three 141 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 5: of us, you know, benefited from having been early and 142 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 5: visible in that era and to this day, like a 143 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 5: lot of the people that came out of the woodwork 144 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 5: at that time are you know, now part of the establishment. 145 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 5: So it was a really cool thing to be a part. 146 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 5: I can count yeah, listen, I could count on on 147 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 5: maybe two hands the people who are talking about finance 148 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 5: on Twitter in March of two thousand and nine. When 149 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 5: I started, it was a really small group of people 150 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 5: because most professionals had compliance departments that just would not 151 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 5: let them talk that way. Now of course, now, of 152 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 5: course the compliance department is like when are you starting 153 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 5: a podcast? So it's it's changed a lot. But we 154 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 5: were there, the three of us, and you know, we 155 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 5: can come up with a whole bunch of the names, 156 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 5: but there aren't that many. 157 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, And to be fair, so one of the advantages 158 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 4: that I think bloggers and people who were on Twitter 159 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 4: at the time had over traditional media was just the 160 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 4: immediacy of that publishing platform because things were happening so 161 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 4: fast right, like, within within a single day, you would 162 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 4: have like ten history making stories all happening at once, 163 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 4: and the newspapers and traditional media to some extent, just 164 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 4: couldn't keep up, whereas if you're tweeting about it, if 165 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 4: you're blogging about it in real time, you really had 166 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 4: a competitive advantage. But Josh, I know you've written about 167 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 4: this before, but for the benefit of our listeners, why 168 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 4: did you get into blogging in the first place, Because again, 169 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 4: people take it as a given now that you're on 170 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 4: social media if you want to get ahead in your career, 171 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 4: But back then it was a very new and to 172 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 4: some extent, risky thing. 173 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 5: So I'm working at a third tier broker dealer in 174 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 5: two thousand and eight, and like many other firms on 175 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 5: Wall Street, they were seeing their revenue implode and you know, 176 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 5: struggling and you know, raising money to try to stay 177 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 5: in business, and you know, I go to the compliance 178 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 5: officer and I'm like, Hey, I'm reading this blog by 179 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 5: this guy barrio it Holtz, and I'm reading a bunch 180 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 5: of blogs and they're doing a really great job describing 181 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 5: what's happening. Every day. There's more news. It seemed like 182 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 5: like every minute there was more news, and the people 183 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 5: that were covering at best were not at the Wall 184 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 5: Street Journal. They were independent bloggers like Tatas Visconta and 185 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 5: Eddie Elfinbne and Barry and Eve Smith at Naked Capitalism 186 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 5: and The Epicurean deal Maker and Med Faber. But these 187 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 5: are like, these are people who they either work on 188 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 5: Wall Street or they used to, or they talk to 189 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 5: people that work on Wall Street, and they just there's 190 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 5: so much more urgency to the way that they're describing 191 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 5: this unfolding crisis. So I said, I said to my 192 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,599 Speaker 5: compliance officer, Hey, I know, like we have compliance restrictions 193 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 5: and stuff, but if I stay within the lines of 194 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 5: FINRA is at that time, I'm a retail broker. If 195 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 5: I stay within the lines of what finra says I 196 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 5: can and can't say, can I do a blog? And 197 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 5: he looks at me. To his credit, he goes, I 198 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 5: gotta be honest with you. I don't even know if 199 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 5: this place is going to be around tomorrow. I don't 200 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 5: give a shit, Like do whatever, do whatever you want 201 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 5: to do. Just just just make sure you print a 202 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 5: copy of everything that you're hitting publish on and bring 203 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 5: it to me. And I'll sign it. And so I 204 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 5: appreciate him to this day because he was he was 205 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 5: dealing with much bigger issues. And you know, around that time, 206 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 5: there were so few people that had been given the 207 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 5: liberty to do that. I always tell people how lucky 208 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 5: I am. There were so few people in my position 209 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 5: who had been given the liberty to speak freely on 210 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 5: the internet. I was one of them. And as a result, 211 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 5: there was such a th for knowledge amongst the general 212 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 5: public that I was able to build a really big 213 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 5: following before you know, thousands of other people would start blogs. 214 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 5: So being early and you know, having that advantage, I'll 215 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 5: never not appreciate that I had the opportunity to do that. 216 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 2: I have a personal question in two thousand and eight, 217 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, and your boss is saying, I 218 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 2: don't even know if we're going to be around. So 219 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 2: I was like living in an apartment in Brooklyn. I 220 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 2: had two roommates at the time. It was sort of 221 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,079 Speaker 2: the whole thing was very interesting. You hit a career, 222 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 2: you were at a brokerage. I believe you had a 223 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,599 Speaker 2: daughter at least by that point. What's that like with 224 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: the anxiety of like you have like I didn't really 225 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: have any responsibilities. I could sort of sit there eating 226 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 2: my popcorn watching things employe, but you were in it, 227 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 2: and presumably you know, you had like supportive what's that 228 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 2: like supporting a family and being in the mix and 229 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: being at a company where it looks like the world 230 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 2: is ending. 231 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 5: So I'm living in a rent control department on the 232 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 5: upper east side Rupert Towers, which used to be the 233 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 5: Rupert Brewery that sponsored the Yankees. I'm up on ninetieth 234 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 5: and Third Avenue. I'm commuting down on the sixth train 235 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 5: to forty second Street every day. My office is in 236 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 5: the Helmsley Building, which is now called two thirty Park, 237 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 5: but I'll always call it the Helmsley Building, And on 238 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 5: the left side of the building is Barri Stearns. The 239 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 5: right side of the building is JP Morgan. You know, 240 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 5: a lot of my friends from college are bond salesman 241 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 5: at Bear. My wife's best friend works at Lehman Brothers. 242 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 5: She works at Golden Sacks. And I'm just surrounded by 243 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 5: people that work at, you know, some of the biggest 244 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 5: banks in the country, because those were the big employers 245 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 5: in New York and so, you know, it was highly 246 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 5: anxious we were in our i don't know, mid to 247 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 5: late twenties, so everybody was going out and drinking a 248 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 5: lot and just like commiserating. But I'll never forget the 249 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 5: day bear Stearns closed because it was the same day 250 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 5: as that as the Saint Patrick's Day parade. So like, 251 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 5: out of more big curiosity, myself and all my fellow 252 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 5: brokers walk around the corner from Helmsley over to the 253 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 5: quote unquote the bear Stearns Building, which by the way, 254 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 5: had just finished construction a year before. A lot of 255 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 5: people don't know that. They spent ten years building it 256 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 5: and then the firm went out of business deal later. 257 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 5: So we walk around the corner. We see Aaron Burnett, 258 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 5: who at that time is CNBC. She's sitting at a 259 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 5: folding table doing live coverage from in front of the 260 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 5: bear Stearns building, and behind her almost the entire Saint 261 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 5: Patrick's Day Parade is coming off of Fifth Avenue where 262 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 5: it ends, and like people are like publicly drunk, and 263 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 5: there's green hats and bugles and you know they're blowing 264 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 5: horns and there's horse and meanwhile you look behind that 265 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 5: and you see white collar workers coming out of the 266 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 5: front of the building with cardboard boxes with all their 267 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 5: stuff in it. It's I want to find that footage 268 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 5: because I don't I don't think people appreciate the extent 269 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 5: to which it was just an absolute daily circus. And 270 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 5: not long after, that same scene would be repeated in 271 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 5: Times Square, where Lehman Brothers was headquartered. They literally took 272 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 5: the sign off the front of the building almost symbolically, 273 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 5: and you have thousands of people coming out of the 274 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 5: front of the building with cardboard boxes. Some of them 275 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 5: would get recalled the next day when Barkley's bought it. 276 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 5: But that was those were the times that we lived in. 277 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 5: And you know, I think one underappreciated aspect of this 278 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 5: is it's only like five or six years removed from 279 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 5: the nine to eleven era, and it just felt like 280 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 5: trauma after trauma after trauma. So that was the New 281 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 5: York in which I worked and lived and started to write. 282 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 5: And about a month after I launched The Reformed Broker, 283 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 5: the Madoff thing broke. So we went from so we 284 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 5: went from bear Stearns to a year later Lehman Brothers 285 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 5: aig the tarp vote blah blah blah blah blah, and 286 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 5: just when you think it's over. The most trust shattering 287 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 5: revelation of a Ponzi scheme in the history of finance breaks, 288 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 5: and so I just had endless fodder to write about 289 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 5: and maybe to answer your question. That helped serve as 290 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 5: a distraction from all of the anxiety in which people 291 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 5: working on Wall Street, you know, had to live. 292 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 4: I remember when the Madoff thing broke, I think it 293 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 4: was later in two thousand and eight, was it? 294 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 3: Yeah? 295 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 4: And I remember the headline December Yeah, and the headline 296 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 4: on the ft Alphaville post, the very first post on 297 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 4: the topic is one of my all time favorites. 298 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 3: It wasn't by me. 299 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 4: I think it was by our founder Paul Murphy, but 300 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 4: it was he made off with it, which was at 301 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 4: the time a very original pun and sticks in it 302 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 4: became less original as the months went on and the 303 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 4: story went on. Okay, what happened? So what happened to 304 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 4: the brokerage that you were working at? And like, how 305 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 4: did you manage the career transition away from blogging and 306 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 4: into I mean, you basically run an investment and a 307 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 4: media empire at this point, So how did that happen? 308 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 5: All? Right? So I'm still a broker, but I'm also 309 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 5: a co branch manager. And it's interesting retail investors didn't 310 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 5: at least the type of investor. We weren't really dealing 311 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 5: with investors. We were dealing with gamblers, people that were 312 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 5: trading stocks. And around that same time you had the 313 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 5: introduction of the two x and then the three X 314 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 5: in xctfs. So the ticker symbols are now infamous. You 315 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 5: had the TNA and the TZA. One of those was 316 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 5: triple long, the Russell two thousand, the other was triple short. 317 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 5: You had the FAS and the FAZ. Those were the 318 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 5: triple long and triple short financial sector in the XCTF. 319 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 5: And that's what the retail brokers pivoted to. They were 320 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 5: no longer pitching stocks because everything looked uninvestable. I mean, 321 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 5: you literally had a fifty seven percent peak to trough 322 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 5: decline in the S and P. And by the way, again, 323 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 5: that same thing had happened from the dot com bubble 324 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 5: through NRON world Com nine to eleven. So like after 325 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 5: ten years of that kind of volatility, people were just like, 326 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 5: you know what, I'm going to invest in volatility, And 327 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 5: so that's what the brokers, the retail brokers pivoted to 328 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 5: I'm a co branch manager. I have to send letters 329 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 5: to the clients where they disclaim, yes, I want to 330 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 5: be trading the three x long or short Russell two thousand. 331 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 5: Like the clients would sign the letters and that would 332 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 5: give the brokers carte blanche to just you know's all right, 333 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 5: let's play. We're in the game. You would have these 334 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 5: are ETFs that are trading I don't know, hundreds of 335 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 5: millions of dollars maybe billions of dollars in in volume, 336 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 5: and you could be down twenty percent in the morning 337 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 5: and then up twenty percent in the afternoon. It was 338 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 5: just the wild West. And I looked around and I said, 339 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 5: what the hell am I doing this for? Like, no 340 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 5: one is being helped by this activity, even the brokers. 341 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 5: They were barely making money. So it was just like 342 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 5: it was an epiphany that I had up until then 343 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 5: spent ten years doing retail brokerage, and nobody was better 344 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 5: off for it, not me, not my clients, not the 345 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 5: firm I worked for. So I started to get really 346 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 5: curious about, well, what are what are normal people doing? 347 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 5: And like what should I be doing to actually help 348 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 5: people in this profession? And it became really obvious that 349 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 5: I was on the wrong side of the boat. So 350 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 5: the brokerage side, the Series seven side, where you're selling investments, 351 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 5: versus the investment advisor side, where you're giving advice and 352 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 5: the investing is incidental to the advice, and you're not 353 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 5: selling products, you're building portfolios and you're helping people really 354 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 5: solve the puzzle of how are they going to retire, 355 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 5: how are they going to pay for their kids college, etc. 356 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 5: So I knew that I was on the wrong side 357 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 5: within the profession, and in those days, most people were. 358 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,959 Speaker 5: There were more people that were registered representatives or Series 359 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 5: seven license brokers than there were true financial advisors. And 360 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 5: so my decision, guys was I'm going to be a 361 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 5: reformed broker and I'm going to go over to the 362 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 5: investment advisor side. But then the catch was, well, how 363 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 5: do you do that? How do you leave? How do 364 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 5: you leave the brokerage side and go over to the 365 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 5: advice side? And I didn't know. So it wasn't until 366 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 5: twenty ten that I met Barry, who is, you know, 367 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 5: at that time my idol. Now he's my partner, but 368 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 5: I when I met him, I sat with him and 369 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 5: I said, all right, here's my problem, or he said 370 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 5: here's I didn't say anything first, Barry did like an 371 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 5: hour so I want to remind people. And of course 372 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 5: Barry is a host of a show on Bloomberg and 373 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 5: so okay. So Barry says, here's my problem. I have 374 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 5: the number one best selling book in the country about 375 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 5: the financial crisis. It's called Bailout Nation, and I think 376 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 5: it proceeded to big to fail and all the rest. 377 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 5: So he's all right, at the number one book in 378 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 5: the country on the financial crisis. I actually predicted the 379 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 5: crisis on my blog. I called it in real time. 380 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 5: I predicted the market crash, and I had my phone 381 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 5: is ringing off the hook because I also predicted the bottom. 382 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 5: So he in the New York Times three days before 383 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 5: the market bottomed, he said, I don't know if there's 384 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 5: a thousand more points down from here, but I think 385 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 5: you buy them. And literally three days later, the market bottom. 386 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 5: So the phones are ringing off the hook at the 387 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 5: RIA that he works at. And he's not a financial advisor, 388 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,719 Speaker 5: he's a strategist. He doesn't talk to clients, so he's like, 389 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 5: my problem is the phones are bringing off the hook 390 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 5: the emails are pouring in. People are like, Barry, just 391 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 5: take my money, take my money, take my money. I 392 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 5: don't do that. So I don't know how to help 393 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 5: these people. I said, Oh, okay, I have the opposite problem. 394 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 5: I'm ready to help people. Nobody's calling me. I don't know. 395 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 5: I don't know where to get my next client from. 396 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 5: So we teamed up and it was like lightning in 397 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 5: a bottle. Like I'm telling you guys, we had like 398 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 5: hundreds of people a month just call the firm. I 399 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 5: would start talking about like how we're going to invest 400 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 5: their money, and they'd be like, just shut up, here's 401 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 5: my Social Security number, Like open me an account, and 402 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 5: I'm leaving Merrill Lynch, I'm leaving, I'm leaving Leman, I'm 403 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 5: leaving this. From leaving that firm, I get my money 404 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 5: out of there, and I want to work with Barry. 405 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 5: So my transition was like this insane rollercoaster of going 406 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,959 Speaker 5: from like nobody wants to talk to me, and then 407 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 5: the next day it's like, oh my god, Josh, how 408 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 5: do I get you guys money? And that's how it started. 409 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 5: And you know, we've been we've been running ever since. 410 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 2: Uh when so there's a lot of questions that I 411 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 2: have a different past week could go down. So you 412 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 2: start the advisory with Barry, and now it's huge and 413 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 2: you have all advisors all over the country, so multiple offices, 414 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 2: et cetera. And we could talk about that more on 415 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: the media side, So you had been doing the blogging, 416 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,719 Speaker 2: you know, I think both of us, like I started 417 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 2: blogging in like two thousand and six or whatever. You know, 418 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 2: it was just to write and I didn't think anything 419 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: would really come of that aspect other than like, you know, 420 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 2: personal notebook, et cetera. When did it seem like the 421 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 2: media side of your career was also getting could be 422 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 2: like a real thing that like is not just like 423 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 2: a notebook or whatever, but something that like, oh there's 424 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 2: like this can grow and this can grow your profile. 425 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 2: And obviously now you're on CNBC and you have a 426 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 2: conference biz and by the way, if you're listening to this, 427 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 2: I believe it is going to be released the day 428 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 2: that we're all out at your future Proof conference. But 429 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 2: when did you sort of realize that there's something big 430 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: happening on the media side that could be more than 431 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 2: just a blog that you like, you know, tell people 432 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:29,239 Speaker 2: what's going on? 433 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 5: So all right, so I'm writing every day, yeah, and 434 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 5: I'm writing every day. Yeah, I'm a man on fire 435 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 5: and I am and I don't. So. I think the 436 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 5: charm of what I was doing then is that I 437 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 5: never presented myself as like I'm like this, you know, 438 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 5: billionaire hedge fund manager, or I'm a cheap strategist at 439 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 5: you know, Goldman Sachs, you know, caliber market commentator. I 440 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 5: never I can't help it. I was always ever just me. 441 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 5: And so I was writing from the perspective of a 442 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 5: grunt in the trenches on Wall Street, suffering through all 443 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 5: the ups and downs like everyone else, and talking about 444 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 5: what it was like to talk to clients, talking about 445 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 5: what it was like to navigate, you know, all of 446 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 5: the various cross currents that were happening, but from a 447 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 5: street level. And I think the readership appreciated that. And 448 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 5: what ended up happening was it became popular enough that 449 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 5: professionals in the financial media started like people were sending 450 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 5: them links, and then they started to share those links 451 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 5: in their editorial meetings. And the first people that put 452 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 5: me on TV were CNN Money, my friend Caleb Silver. 453 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 5: I was like, in with this group of other financial 454 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 5: bloggers with Howard Lindzen and who's a venture capitalist at 455 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 5: the time, and you know, a whole bunch of people. 456 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 5: And CNN is starting to do more financial content because 457 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 5: the whole country is like wrapped with what's going on. 458 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 5: So CNN Money really was my first shot at being 459 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 5: able to take my writing and turn it into like 460 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 5: television and commentary. I was also getting a lot of 461 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 5: calls from the Wall Street Journal. They were linking to 462 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 5: me every day, and they were like, because they didn't 463 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 5: set that time. And Tracy will attest to this, Joe, 464 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 5: you were writing at cluster Stock, which became exciting, but 465 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 5: like I never will. But the large, the large media firms, 466 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 5: the large media firms were not staffed up to do 467 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 5: hourly commentary on every twist and turn in the market. 468 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 5: So instead of attempting to do that with traditional journalists, 469 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 5: and they had amazing journalists, they pivoted to this idea 470 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 5: that all right, we can't cover everything, but we'll do 471 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 5: a link fest every day and we'll tell the readers 472 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 5: what where else they can go. So they were serving 473 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 5: their purpose. Like the Wall Street Journal didn't have at 474 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 5: that time five people who could write markets blogs. So 475 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 5: we became the ben fish areas of that vacuum, and 476 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 5: all of a sudden I start getting called from the 477 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 5: Wall Street Journal. They're doing video. Kelly Evans is like, 478 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 5: I don't know, twenty three years old, and she is 479 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 5: like their lead markets, you know, daily blogger, and she's 480 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 5: doing video, and she's like, hey, I don't know if 481 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 5: they're going to allow me to do this, but I 482 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 5: asked them if I could bring you on and let's 483 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 5: see what happens. So all of a sudden, I start 484 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 5: getting calls from Bloomberg and then of course, like eventually 485 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 5: CNBC calls and they're like, here's the deal. We're talking 486 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 5: about your blog posts every morning. Are you normal? Like 487 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 5: we put you on because at that time, bloggers were 488 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,199 Speaker 5: a little bit scary, and there were some scary guys 489 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 5: you know, on Twitter and writing about finance that ended 490 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 5: up becoming, you know, obviously these people in maniacs. So 491 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 5: I'm like, no, I'm normal. I'm working in the industry, 492 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 5: I'm Series sixty five, I'm registered, I'm overseen by the SEC. 493 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 5: I have a wife and kids. I'm not gonna I'm 494 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 5: not gonna come on the air and embarrass anyone. So 495 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 5: I guess like I had this progression, uh, and I'd 496 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 5: done enough that people were like, all right, this guy's good. 497 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 5: And so that's That's really how like the media thing, 498 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 5: the origin of the media thing happened. It it was 499 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 5: it was Look, there was a show you guys probably remember. 500 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 5: It was a show that Fox Business used to tape 501 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 5: from the lobby the bar pulling Bear at the Waldorf Historia. 502 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 2: Remember that, Yeah, I remember, all right. 503 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 5: So it's it's Cody Willard and Eric Bolling and Eric 504 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 5: Bolling and they're the hosts and they every day, this 505 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 5: is five days a week. I can't even believe this 506 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 5: went on. This is seven, this is eight and nine 507 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 5: every day in the bar at the Waldorf Astoria. They 508 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 5: set up a TV studio. There are regular people eating 509 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 5: steaks and drinking in the background, and they did this 510 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 5: like happy hour show. So they were invited me to 511 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 5: come down and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna be on 512 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 5: Fox Business. And then I find out they're like, no, no, no, 513 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 5: you're not going to be on. You're a blogger. We 514 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 5: just want you to sit on set and do a 515 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 5: blog post about the show. And I'm like, well, I'm like, oh, 516 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 5: I'll show you. 517 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 3: It's a mistake. 518 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 2: That's just so like there's something about that that's like 519 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 2: so perfect. Like two thousand and nine, traditional media trying 520 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: to figure got to do something. 521 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 4: But this is exactly it. So I I failed the 522 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 4: normality test, but I think it like it speaks to 523 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 4: the uncertainty of the moment and how traditional media was 524 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 4: sort of grappling with this new cast of characters, which 525 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 4: is like when I was at the FT at the time, 526 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 4: there was a sense internally that the people on ft Alphaville, 527 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 4: who were writing good stuff and doing good analysis, should 528 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 4: have some sort of video format. And then we I 529 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 4: remember we shot like an initial version of what the 530 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 4: video could be, and the feedback from our video team 531 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 4: came back that we were so weird and off putting 532 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 4: on camera that we should be played by puppets. 533 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 3: That was an actual suggestion. 534 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 2: It's funny because I think like if I like there 535 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 2: was this view that like the bloggers were like these 536 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 2: weird like sort of like caged wild animals, and like 537 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 2: I remember going to a conference like two thousand and seven, 538 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 2: it was a tech conference, it was a little bit 539 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 2: before and they had like this like special like blogger bullpen, 540 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 2: like they separated us from the other journalists. But there 541 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 2: was like but like they get a little space because 542 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 2: we know they're cool and they're doing something, and so 543 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 2: they get their own seats. But they're like different and 544 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 2: they have to be sort of segregated from the other 545 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 2: people there. 546 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 5: That was a weird There was There was a there 547 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 5: was a guy on the air named Dennis Neil and 548 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 5: he would pick fights with bloggers from the air. So 549 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 5: he was I don't know what time he was. He 550 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 5: was on CNBC. I don't know what time his show 551 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 5: was or whatever, but he had this recurring I'm not 552 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 5: even kidding, he had a recurring segment called blog you, 553 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 5: and he would this is all true, you could look 554 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 5: this up. He would he he would pick a different 555 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 5: blogger who was like prominent on Twitter each time they 556 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 5: did the segment and like and like go off on 557 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 5: this person. And then they started booking the bloggers onto 558 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 5: his show for like a live debate. It was guys, 559 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 5: it was wild and I forget the guy's name. One 560 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 5: guy was just a complete lunatic and on the air 561 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 5: just went nuts on Dennis Neil. I don't I think 562 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,239 Speaker 5: a month later, Dennis Neil was off the air, and 563 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 5: the bloggers won. The bloggers won, because yeah, so by 564 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 5: blog you by twenty ten, every network Bloomberg, Fox, Business, CNBC, CNN, 565 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 5: anyone covering the market. If you would just turn on 566 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 5: the TV and watch for an hour, you would see 567 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 5: somebody that started off as a blogger. So I think 568 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 5: the freaks one and and you know again like by 569 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 5: by now it's it's fifteen years later, by now we're 570 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 5: the establishment. But in that time there were Tracy. You're 571 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 5: absolutely right, there was like a red line these are 572 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 5: these are journalists or TV people and these are blog freaks. 573 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 5: And you know, of course that's that's it's funny now, 574 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 5: but like that's that's how it was, and crossing over. 575 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 5: So Barry had crossed over. Barry was on Cudlow like 576 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 5: three nights a week at the at the peak of 577 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 5: the crisis, Cudlow had an amazing show at seven I 578 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 5: think it was at seven o'clock on CNBC every night, 579 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 5: and it was all chief strategists and economists and some politicians, 580 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 5: and Barry was on there almost every night, and he 581 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 5: was a regular and he was like a blueprint of 582 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 5: how you can go from being a blogger to being 583 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 5: a mainstream commentator. 584 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 4: What are the pros and cons of running you know, 585 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 4: the investment firm, the advisory alongside the media. So, you know, 586 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 4: I imagine you get there, there's promotional opportunities, you get your 587 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 4: thoughts out there and some of your ideas. But on 588 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 4: the other hand, it must take some time. And also 589 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 4: I can imagine that you know, if you put your 590 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 4: thoughts out there, some of those inevitably are going to 591 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 4: be mistakes that people can like bring up and criticize. 592 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 4: So I'm just wondering how you think about like the 593 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 4: upsides and the downsides of doing those two things. 594 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 5: You have to decide that you are willing to be 595 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 5: publicly wrong and that you are going to have the 596 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 5: humility that when you're wrong, you're going to turn that 597 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 5: into content. And some of the most popular blog posts 598 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 5: of that era not just me, everybody, Here's why I 599 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 5: got blank wrong. Now, not everybody went that way. There 600 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 5: are some people that doubled down, tripled down, quadrupled down 601 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 5: on what they were wrong about and never let it go. 602 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 5: There are some people that are like macroeconomic geniuses, and 603 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 5: they're still calling for the double dip recession from twenty 604 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 5: eleven that never happened. It's coming any day now. But 605 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,719 Speaker 5: I think I think the bet that you had to 606 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 5: make was that by being humble and by owning your 607 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 5: mistakes and maybe even turning them into an entertaining way 608 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 5: to learn something, that the audience would come along with 609 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 5: you for the ride. And a lot of us did that. 610 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 5: This is not something I came up with on my own. 611 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 5: I watched people that I respect own their errors, and 612 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,239 Speaker 5: you know, people like Doug cass who was writing at 613 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 5: the street dot com. This guy's buying a stock in 614 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 5: the morning and writing a column about how he's bullish, 615 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 5: and then telling it in the afternoon and the next 616 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 5: day he's shorting it. So he had like a lot 617 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 5: of flexibility in how he thought. So I looked at 618 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 5: that and I said, all right, So Doug has a 619 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 5: lot of respect from people all over the street, and 620 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 5: he's saying, I bought this thing, I'm wrong, it's down, 621 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 5: I'm gonna sell now. I don't personally believe in invest 622 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 5: in that way. I don't think that people should be 623 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 5: frantically switching back and forth bull bear, bull bear, But 624 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 5: it showed me that you can be open and honest 625 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 5: with your audience and they will respect you more for it, 626 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 5: rather than hiding there was as the first show of 627 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 5: it's kind on on CNBC was Fast Money and one 628 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 5: of the original cast members it doesn't matter who, and 629 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 5: it's so long ago, one of the original cast members. 630 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 5: I remember the producer telling me if he was wrong 631 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 5: about a stock on like Tuesday night, he wouldn't show 632 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 5: up on Wednesday. Like, I'm not coming, sorry, I can't 633 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 5: make the show tonight. So like you could do you could? 634 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,879 Speaker 5: I do that for a few months, but it's gonna 635 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 5: wear really thin with the audience. So I think having 636 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 5: the humility and trying to turn the things you're wrong 637 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 5: about into teachable moments that's been really powerful, and the 638 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 5: people that have done that have done very well as 639 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 5: a result. 640 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 2: We you know, like we could turn that. We could 641 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 2: just talk forever about this and about that era because 642 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 2: we're barely scratching their service. No, I just appreciate you 643 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 2: so much reminding me of some of the hilarious things 644 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 2: that we're going on. I had totally forgotten about that 645 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 2: show in the bar, but I remember it the blog 646 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 2: use segment. 647 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 4: I remember it. 648 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 2: This is like great stuff and again memory Lane stuff. 649 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 2: I'm all about it. There are so many other things 650 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 2: if we zoom ahead, you know, right now twenty twenty four, 651 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 2: things have changed, you know, like finance Twitter isn't what 652 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 2: it was, Blogging is different. But things are always evolving, 653 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 2: and I like to you know, I get anxious about like, 654 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 2: oh am, I like gonna get stuck in a current 655 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 2: way of doing things, and then the way people consume 656 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 2: financial and from will change. Well, I'd be able to 657 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,399 Speaker 2: pivot on time. I like to think I've done an 658 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 2: okay of sort of like figuring out when to try 659 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 2: new things and drop old formats. Do you get anxious 660 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 2: about that yourself? The fact that you know so many 661 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 2: different new platforms and like trying to you know, worry 662 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 2: about getting stuck or like what do you think is 663 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,760 Speaker 2: happening right now in finance media? 664 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 5: So I think I was actually I was talking to 665 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 5: I was talking to Michael Batnic about this yesterday, so 666 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 5: it's fresh in my mind. I think in that era 667 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 5: and for about ten years, yeah, Twitter was the most 668 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 5: essential platform for making sure that if you took the 669 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 5: time to write something and put your thoughts out there 670 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 5: and do the research, that is required when you're writing, 671 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 5: like if you really put effort into a piece of content, 672 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 5: Twitter was the way that you could make sure there 673 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 5: would be distribution. Yeah. Less so Facebook because the pros 674 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 5: aren't really spending their days on there and it's not 675 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 5: urgent enough, it doesn't move fast enough. But tweet deck 676 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 5: was the way that you distributed content, and it was 677 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,879 Speaker 5: extremely powerful because if what you did was good, or 678 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 5: if people hated it or whatever, if it struck any 679 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 5: kind of chord, the amplification in the form of retweets 680 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 5: was more powerful than the Wall Street Journal dot Com 681 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 5: linking to you, because it was like everybody was resharing 682 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 5: the best four or five things that had been written 683 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 5: that day. So this guy, Tatus Wisconsa, he works with 684 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 5: us now, he's our director of investor Education. He had 685 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 5: a blog called Abnormal Returns and it was ground zero 686 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 5: for daily financial commentation. 687 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 4: That was actually like the first thing you would look 688 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 4: at when you got into the office in the morning. 689 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 5: I remember now Tatus is the librarian of finance Twitter. 690 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 5: If somebody wrote something, he knew it. He read everyone, 691 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 5: He read everything, and he curated the best ten to 692 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 5: fifteen things that had been written each day. He did 693 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,359 Speaker 5: it five days a week, did it for more than 694 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 5: ten years. He's still doing it. And if you made 695 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 5: Tatus's site, you won. Like that means what you wrote 696 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 5: that day was legit. That would then be complimented by 697 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 5: what would happen on Twitter because everyone was reading abnormal returns. 698 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 5: And there were other notable link fests each day. Deal 699 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 5: Breaker had one that Best Levin and Matt Levigne worked on, 700 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 5: and there were a few others. But like that was 701 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 5: basically like the mixtape that you know, like the rappers 702 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 5: all wanted to get on the DJ Clu mixtape, which 703 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,400 Speaker 5: would then be sold on the on Canal Street in Chinatown, 704 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 5: and that's how DJs from around the country would know 705 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 5: that something is hot. This was very similar, and then 706 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 5: Twitter would just amplify it and really enable something to 707 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 5: go viral. That all changed. The first thing that happened 708 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 5: is the Wall Street Journal and CNBC dot Com and 709 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 5: even and Yahoo Finance, the distribution channels, they started hiring 710 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 5: their own bloggers and they stopped linking out, so now 711 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,479 Speaker 5: they never link out. But I remember that taking place, 712 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 5: and then it's all of a sudden, like all right, 713 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 5: the mainstream media is no longer going to link out, 714 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 5: but you still had to have normal returns, and you 715 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 5: still had Twitter. What's changed in the last few years 716 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 5: is that Twitter is no longer a worthwhile distribution platform. 717 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 5: Things go viral if they are really negative or violent 718 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 5: or racist, or somebody just being piled on for an opinion. 719 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 5: That's not the climate that it used to be when 720 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 5: people were trying to share information and debate topics. Now 721 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 5: they debate personalities. They hate Chamoth or they hate Mark 722 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 5: Cuban today and then the next day, like you know, 723 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 5: so somebody got filmed stumbling out of a bar drunk. 724 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 5: It's not a platform anymore where you could write something 725 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 5: amazing and anyone's going to pay attention to it. And 726 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 5: finance Twitter, finance Twitter is a vertical is really small 727 00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,839 Speaker 5: within the context of Twitter. He's talked to this guy, 728 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 5: Aard Podnos, who was quote unquote in charge of finance 729 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 5: Twitter for Twitter. It was it was one guy overseeing 730 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 5: what all of us were doing. It was not like 731 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,240 Speaker 5: sports or celebrity. 732 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,760 Speaker 3: Call what does that mean? He was in charge. 733 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,280 Speaker 5: I think that it's awesome. One of my favorite people 734 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:22,399 Speaker 5: Twitter had him monitor finance Twitter. So anything that had 735 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 5: a ticker or you know, all the Wall Street people 736 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 5: that were now tweeting. His job was to oversee what 737 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 5: people were saying and try to make it helpful for 738 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 5: the rest of Twitter users to find. 739 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, like all the cash tags and all the things 740 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 2: that sort of formalize it. I don't know. 741 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 5: So it's over. So it's over, and it's okay. Like 742 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 5: things things aren't meant to less forever, Like Saturday Night 743 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 5: Live on the air for fifty years is an anomaly. 744 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 5: Most things don't go on for more than three or 745 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 5: four years. So I think you guys correct me if 746 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 5: I'm wrong. I think peak finance Twitter is let's say, 747 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 5: twenty ten to twenty twenty. And then in twenty twenty 748 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 5: things really broke down and it became more of like 749 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 5: a platform for venting rage and me too, and you know, 750 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 5: posting disturbing video clips, and it just became less about communities. 751 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 5: And that's around the time that I think it lost 752 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 5: its relevance for finance. 753 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 4: Joe and I were talking about this the other day actually, 754 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 4: but I think the thing that's missing from Twitter, other 755 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 4: than like a good feeling among human beings, is sincerity 756 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,879 Speaker 4: and like earnestness. That's kind of what bothers me about 757 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 4: it is like everything is just about like making the 758 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 4: best joke that you possibly can, and there's no room 759 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 4: for like earnestness, Bring back earnestness. 760 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 5: I liked, well, I like the jokes, but what killed 761 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 5: what I'm describing is the quote tweet. So not every innovation, 762 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 5: not every innovation is good. So there was a time 763 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,839 Speaker 5: when if somebody said something smart or posted a great chart, 764 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 5: you would copy paste that tweet and you would and 765 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 5: you would repost it and you would say via at 766 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 5: whoever it was, or you would do a manual, or 767 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 5: you would do RT. You would write RT, which would 768 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 5: tell everyone, this is not my original thought, I'm retweeting 769 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,839 Speaker 5: this person. Then they built a product that was a 770 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,839 Speaker 5: quote tweet where you could hit a button and say, 771 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 5: I want to comment on this above the person's tweet, 772 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:42,799 Speaker 5: and that facilitated a wave of dunking, and dunking is 773 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 5: basically like, look, how dumb this person is. So I 774 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,360 Speaker 5: know that there were people that used it positively also, 775 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,280 Speaker 5: but I'm just saying like that was something that Twitter 776 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 5: built that had a very adverse consequence on the community, 777 00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 5: and it just it devolved into worse than high school. 778 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,240 Speaker 2: You obviously like worked like crazy. You know, you've worked 779 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 2: like an insane person over the last several years. Both 780 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 2: Tracy and I have as well. Do you, like, do 781 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 2: you ever think about slowing down and like taking time 782 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,919 Speaker 2: savoring things like I'm taking my son to a football game. 783 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 2: I wish I had done more this weekend. I wish 784 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 2: I had done you know, I had more time, and 785 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 2: sometimes like, oh, should I have like worked less and 786 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 2: done more? Stuff like that? Do you ever like have 787 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,720 Speaker 2: anxiety about like, you know, do you have two big 788 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 2: kind of components of your job. You're very public and stuff. 789 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,400 Speaker 2: Do you ever feel like, oh, slowing down or how 790 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 2: much longer can you do it? Stuff like that? 791 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 5: I mean I think about I think about it, but 792 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 5: then I don't do it. Yeah, that's right. Somebody told 793 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 5: me you work as though somebody took something away from 794 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 5: you and you're you're fighting to get it back. Like 795 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 5: that was their impression of my I don't want to 796 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 5: say work ethic like I'm like this, like like like 797 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 5: I'm in the coal mines. I love what I do. Yeah, 798 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 5: but that I think the pace and the intensity of 799 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,919 Speaker 5: what I've done and what I still do to this day, 800 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 5: the amount, the volume, and the urgency it it looks 801 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 5: like it looks like a dog who somebody pulled their 802 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 5: toy away from them. And I don't know if that's 803 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 5: inherent to my personality or if you know. One of 804 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,440 Speaker 5: the things I talk about in the new book is 805 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 5: I there was no safety net. So I never stopped working. 806 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:31,399 Speaker 5: I never had a period of time where I didn't 807 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 5: have a job. I went from one thing to another 808 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,279 Speaker 5: thing to another thing because I was terrified of what 809 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 5: happens if I stop, Like I'm nobody, nobody needs me, 810 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 5: so I have to stay used. I have to stay useful, 811 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 5: and I have to so there might be equal parts 812 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:51,000 Speaker 5: ambition and fear, because if there's no net underneath you, 813 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 5: when you're on a tightrope, what do you don't stop walking? 814 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 5: You got you gotta keep walking to the end of 815 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 5: the tightrope. And by the way, there's no end in sight. 816 00:44:57,920 --> 00:44:59,319 Speaker 5: I don't know where it ends, but I think that's 817 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 5: probably the best way to describe the why. And it's subconscious. 818 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 5: I don't think about it every day. I just I 819 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,359 Speaker 5: don't stop because I don't want to stop. I love 820 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,839 Speaker 5: what I do and I think I'm helping people. But 821 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 5: also I'm afraid of what happens if I stop, Like 822 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 5: what happens if I fall what if I fall off? 823 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 5: So that's probably the driving thing. But I don't want 824 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 5: to give people the impression that I did not spend 825 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 5: the last eighteen years raising my children and you know, 826 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,800 Speaker 5: building a home, because I really think that I've given 827 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,759 Speaker 5: the circumstances where I started in my profession. I think 828 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 5: I obviously overachieved relative to you know, what most people 829 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,399 Speaker 5: would have said is my ceiling. And I think I've 830 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 5: overachieved on the family side as well. Thank God. I 831 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,800 Speaker 5: have a daughter who started college this fall. I have 832 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,080 Speaker 5: another kid in high school, and you know, I like 833 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:54,840 Speaker 5: to say that everything I do is for them, but 834 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 5: it's selfishly. It's my own insecurity that drives me. And 835 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 5: I don't know when that stops. Joe made me, maybe 836 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 5: talked to me. In five years, maybe I'll feel differently. 837 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:03,920 Speaker 5: I don't know. 838 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like ambition and anxiety are the true 839 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,240 Speaker 4: drivers of productivity and tweets. 840 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 2: Probably Josh Brown, this was such a blast. I'm so 841 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 2: glad we made this happen, and I'm looking forward to 842 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 2: seeing you in just over a week at your conference 843 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 2: out in Newport when when. 844 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,880 Speaker 5: You guys, you guys were a highlight last year and 845 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:25,799 Speaker 5: you'll be a highlight again this year. People are so 846 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,799 Speaker 5: excited when they see Joe and Tracy. 847 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 2: Too, kind man, Tracy, that whole conversation is worth it, 848 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 2: just to be reminded of the blog you segment un 849 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 2: CNBC and the the the the I still can't believe 850 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,239 Speaker 2: that was real, the show in the bar, but I 851 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 2: remember it, and I think I was, like I was 852 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 2: there like once for a taping or for a party 853 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:01,400 Speaker 2: for it, so man. 854 00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:01,879 Speaker 3: It really well. 855 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 4: Also, weird time you reminded me with that bullpen comment, 856 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:11,040 Speaker 4: like bloggers truly were segregated from everyone else. I remember, 857 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 4: do you remember going into Goldman Sachs one time because 858 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,760 Speaker 4: they had like a special event for Lloyd Blank Fine 859 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 4: to talk to to talk about Oh yeah, you. 860 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 3: Kind of if you want. Although I I. 861 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 4: I quibble with some of your some of your narration, 862 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:30,520 Speaker 4: but yeah. 863 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 2: You know it might have been off the record, so 864 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 2: I won't Yeah, okay go into details. 865 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 5: Yes, but yes, the. 866 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 2: Bloggers were treated like these like weird special creatures, like 867 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 2: kind of alien, Like everyone knew they were interesting and 868 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,479 Speaker 2: kind of cool. And doing something, but like they weren't 869 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 2: really the same, and all the traditional media outlets are 870 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,120 Speaker 2: like how do we deal with them? And it was 871 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:51,879 Speaker 2: very weird times, it was. 872 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 4: But that was so much fun with Josh and I 873 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 4: think his his career like to some extent, has mirrored 874 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,600 Speaker 4: the evolution of financial media, I think. And one of 875 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,720 Speaker 4: the few benefits perhaps of getting older is that we've 876 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,840 Speaker 4: been in financial journalism for I don't know, like almost 877 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 4: twenty years now. Yeah, does that sound right? And so 878 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,759 Speaker 4: some of the people that we were, you know, sort 879 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:23,040 Speaker 4: of growing up with have gone on to like massive success, 880 00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:24,479 Speaker 4: and Josh is definitely one. 881 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,080 Speaker 5: Of them, and it's well deserved, totally. 882 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:27,359 Speaker 3: Shall we leave it there. 883 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:27,920 Speaker 5: Let's leave it. 884 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:28,800 Speaker 3: There, all right? 885 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 4: This has been another episode of the Odd Loots podcast. 886 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 4: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. 887 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe Wysn't though. You can follow me at 888 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:41,600 Speaker 2: the Stalwart. Follow Josh on Instagram. He has, wisely, I think, 889 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:46,880 Speaker 2: probably abandoned us on the other side Downtown Josh Brown. 890 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:51,000 Speaker 2: Follow our producers Carman Rodriguez at Carman Ermann, Dashel Bennett 891 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 2: at Dashbot, and Cal Brooks at Cal Brooks. Thank you 892 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,120 Speaker 2: to our producer Moses Ondem. For more Oddlots content, go 893 00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,840 Speaker 2: to Bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots, where we have transcripts, 894 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,399 Speaker 2: blog and a newsletter and you can chat about all 895 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,240 Speaker 2: of these topics with fellow listeners twenty four to seven 896 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,480 Speaker 2: in our discord discord dot gg slash upline. 897 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,600 Speaker 4: And if you enjoy Odd Thoughts, if you like it 898 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,520 Speaker 4: when we indulge ourselves in some financial media naval gazing, 899 00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,360 Speaker 4: then please leave us a positive review on your favorite 900 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,360 Speaker 4: podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, 901 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:24,919 Speaker 4: you can listen to all of our episodes. 902 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:25,720 Speaker 3: Absolutely ad free. 903 00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,080 Speaker 4: All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel 904 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,080 Speaker 4: on Apple Podcasts and then follow the instructions there. 905 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:32,280 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.