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Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. I did say

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Speaker 1: to my wife early on, I said, you know, if

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Speaker 1: I had the choice to spend a year in space

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Speaker 1: or a year in this apartment, this apartment wins every

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Speaker 1: single time, because you know, space has all kinds of

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Speaker 1: other challenges. Retired NASA astronaut Scott Kelly made history in

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen when he returned home from a year long

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Speaker 1: mission in space. He spent three hundred and forty consecutive

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Speaker 1: days away from family, friends, and loved ones, three hundred

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Speaker 1: and forty days without gravity, and also without hugs and

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Speaker 1: without a home cooked meal. In many ways, that prefigured

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Speaker 1: the kind of social isolation that so many of us

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Speaker 1: have been forced to live through during this pandemic. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: a year in space is different from social distancing during

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Speaker 1: COVID nineteen, but that experience did teach him some lessons

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Speaker 1: that make facing the challenges of this time a little easier.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be tough, There's no question. I've spent

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Speaker 1: three Christmases in space. You know, it's a unique place

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Speaker 1: to spend the holiday, but at the same time, you

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Speaker 1: want to be with your friends and family. People just

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Speaker 1: need to realize that this is part of our collective mission.

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Speaker 1: There is no shame in asking for help. On the

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Speaker 1: space station, I had to talk to a psychiatrist every

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Speaker 1: two weeks. Kelly trained hard for his missions and now

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Speaker 1: has some advice for how to build up both our

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Speaker 1: physical and mental health during challenging times. I am Scott Kelly,

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Speaker 1: former NASA astronaut, and my solvable problem is the depression

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Speaker 1: and anxiety that we can all expect to experience during

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Speaker 1: this pandemic. Scott, welcome. I have to ask you. The

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Speaker 1: space X Falcon just launched, taking four astronauts to the

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Speaker 1: space station for six months, and I just wonder what

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Speaker 1: your thoughts were about that, especially at a moment when

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Speaker 1: the country and so much of the world is facing

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Speaker 1: a very different kind of separation from normal life. Well.

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Speaker 1: I was excited for NASA. You know, we've been working

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Speaker 1: on that commercial crew program for almost ten years now,

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Speaker 1: I think, and to now have the capability to regularly

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Speaker 1: launch people into lowerth orbit and get them to the

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Speaker 1: International Space Station is a huge success. You know. More personally,

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Speaker 1: I am friends with all of the people on the spacecraft,

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Speaker 1: so Eachiagucci, the Japanese astronaut, as an aswered our classmate

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Speaker 1: of mine. I was also in space with Shannon Walker

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Speaker 1: on her previous mission, which was ten years ago, and

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Speaker 1: I closed the hatch on her when she was returning

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Speaker 1: to Earth and now spent ten years since she last flew,

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Speaker 1: So that's exciting. Mike Hopkins was my crew support astronaut

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Speaker 1: on my last mission, so you helped my family. And

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Speaker 1: then Victor Glover. I don't know him as well, but

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Speaker 1: he's a new guy. This is his first space flight,

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Speaker 1: so very very exciting both for NASA and me personally

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Speaker 1: because my relationships with those people. Yeah, So as you say,

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Speaker 1: you know three of the four really well, so I

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Speaker 1: imagine it's less a matter of you giving them advice

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Speaker 1: on dealing with six months in space and I kind

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Speaker 1: of comparing notes about all of your experiences. But what's

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Speaker 1: that what's that conversation? Like, I mean, what when astronauts

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Speaker 1: talk about the experience of long term isolation in space,

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Speaker 1: what do you talk about? You know, Well, think specifically

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Speaker 1: with those three folks that have experience on this flight,

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Speaker 1: their experience is so extensive, you know, they've all flown

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Speaker 1: in space for long duration space flights. I wouldn't give

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Speaker 1: them any But when you're talking to somebody new, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think for me, it's important that they have the

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Speaker 1: right perspective. And in the case when I flew for

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Speaker 1: a year, my perspective on that mission was me being

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Speaker 1: there for a long time was part of my job.

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Speaker 1: That's why I was doing it. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: think in this pandemic now and the isolation we're currently experiencing,

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Speaker 1: people just need to realize that this is part of

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Speaker 1: our collective mission. It's the first time in our in

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Speaker 1: my lifetime, that you know, everyone on the planet has

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Speaker 1: been working to solve a problem in in a collective way,

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Speaker 1: to follow the guidance to do the right thing. So

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Speaker 1: I think the first thing I tell people is to

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Speaker 1: just understand that, you know, part of part of your

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Speaker 1: job is just being there for a long time, and

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Speaker 1: it's not going to be easy. But you know, if

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Speaker 1: you if you think about it, if you're thoughtful, if

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Speaker 1: you have a plan to get through it, you can

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Speaker 1: get to the end of that six months or however

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Speaker 1: long you're going to be in space with as much

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Speaker 1: energy and as enthusiasm as you had in the beginning.

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Speaker 1: And that was the case that I found in my

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Speaker 1: year long mission. I think of being an astronaut as

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Speaker 1: the definition of having a mission. But it's interesting that

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Speaker 1: you say big part of the mission is to get

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Speaker 1: through the mission, right which is something I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of people can probably relate to right now. And

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Speaker 1: six months isn't a crazy time frame estimate for how long?

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Speaker 1: How much longer we're going to have to be isolated,

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Speaker 1: at least to a significant extent, And it's a long

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Speaker 1: winter with a lot of darkness, being around few of

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Speaker 1: any people for some of us. I mean, do you

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Speaker 1: what's the same about it? What's different about it? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, at the beginning of the pandemic, I was

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Speaker 1: living in a high rise apartment in downtown Houston, which

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Speaker 1: was I guess a little bit more stressful in that

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Speaker 1: you're coming into contact with a lot of people in

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Speaker 1: the elevator, you know, on a daily basis. But despite

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Speaker 1: all this, I did say to my wife early on,

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Speaker 1: I said, you know, if I had the choice to

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Speaker 1: spend spend a year in space or a year in

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Speaker 1: this apartment, this apartment wins every single time, because you know,

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Speaker 1: space has all kinds of other challenges, you know, particularly

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Speaker 1: the you know, the floating. You know, despite it being fun,

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Speaker 1: it makes just about everything else more difficult to do.

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Speaker 1: The carmen dioxide levels are generally fairly uncomfortable, you know,

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Speaker 1: the fluid shift to your head makes your head always

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Speaker 1: feel stuffed up. But there are many many things that

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Speaker 1: are very similar about how you deal with isolation. And

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Speaker 1: in my case, I flew a six month flight that

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Speaker 1: a few years prior to me flying in space for

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Speaker 1: nearly a year, and I at the end of that mission,

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Speaker 1: I just found the you know, the anxiety building up,

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Speaker 1: the walls closing in a little bit. So you know,

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Speaker 1: a year flight was not all that appealing to me

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Speaker 1: in the beginning, but you I wanted to fly again

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to be more challenging, so eventually I

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Speaker 1: came to terms with it. But I went into it

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Speaker 1: with a plan. You know. My plan involved things like,

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Speaker 1: you know, very closely following a schedule, pacing myself, you know,

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Speaker 1: making time for work but also time to rest, time

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Speaker 1: for hobbies, time to connect with you know, family and friends.

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Speaker 1: And I did that very deliberately in the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the pandemic. It definitely helped me through a year in

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Speaker 1: space and is I think, you know, having that mindset

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Speaker 1: of this is my mission. Here are the things I

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Speaker 1: need to do, you know, to take care of myself,

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Speaker 1: my family. You know it's important. You know, exercise and

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Speaker 1: getting outside is incredibly important, especially in this pandemic where

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Speaker 1: you know, having a healthy immune system is really really important.

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Speaker 1: So and those two things can you know, really boost

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Speaker 1: your immune system. So a lot of parallels. Yeah, talk

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Speaker 1: about the technology part of it, because for so many

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Speaker 1: of us, technology as a blessing and a curse in

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Speaker 1: the time of the pandemic. With social isolation, it let's

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Speaker 1: just do things remotely and enables all sorts of things,

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Speaker 1: but it can feel really oppressive. And you know, I've

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Speaker 1: never seen a picture of someone surrounded by more technology

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Speaker 1: than you on the International Space Station. So how do

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Speaker 1: you think about that? Well, I think we're just really

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Speaker 1: lucky to live in this time and to go through

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Speaker 1: a pandemic now versus nineteen eighteen. You know, it makes

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Speaker 1: isolation easier because you know, the entertainment value having that

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Speaker 1: technology to entertain us, to allow us to connect with

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Speaker 1: our friends and family very very important. Gives us access

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Speaker 1: to a lot of information. Yeah, Scott, when you're isolated.

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Speaker 1: Is it helpful to stay closely involved with the news,

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Speaker 1: I mean, in your case, the news from Earth. But

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are having this question

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Speaker 1: right now. Is you know this being on top of

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Speaker 1: the news make you feel in control and knowing what's

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Speaker 1: going on? Or does it? Does it have a negative

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Speaker 1: effect on you? So I found in space that following

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Speaker 1: the news on Earth was really important. Having said that,

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Speaker 1: I am kind of a news junkie. In this type

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Speaker 1: of environment, information is everything. It's the most important thing

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Speaker 1: we have. It's how we prepare ourselves to combat this

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Speaker 1: worldwide pandemic. So now having said that, you got to

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Speaker 1: follow like informed and trusted sources. One of the things

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Speaker 1: I learned in my twenty years at NASA was everything

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Speaker 1: we did was not rocket science. When it was rocket science,

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Speaker 1: you need to get your information from a rocket scientist,

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Speaker 1: you know, not one of your friends on Facebook. I

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Speaker 1: mean they might be great people, but you know they're

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Speaker 1: not epidemiologists probably, I mean maybe some of them are,

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Speaker 1: you know, people, just we need to be getting the

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Speaker 1: right information from trusted sources, from the experts. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean an astronaut who didn't believe in experts would would

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Speaker 1: be an astronaut with a short life expectancy. I imagine, yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I mean everything we do, you know, you do as

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Speaker 1: part of a team, and you you know, members of

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Speaker 1: those teams are the experts. It's not you know your

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Speaker 1: cousin Vinnie on Facebook. Indeed, Scott, I read somewhere that

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Speaker 1: you took one of my favorite books into space, and

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Speaker 1: that is Endurance by Alfred Lansing, which is about the Shackleton,

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Speaker 1: the Doom Shackleton Antarctic expedition. What about that book is

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Speaker 1: resonated with you? And do is that's still something the

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Speaker 1: book you think about? You know, when I was getting

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Speaker 1: ready to fly for six months, I wanted to bring

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Speaker 1: a book with me that if my situation ever got

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Speaker 1: really dire, which can happen. I mean generally early conditions

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Speaker 1: up there's pretty is okay. But if it ever got

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Speaker 1: so dire that I started feeling sorry for myself, I

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Speaker 1: can't do this. I would just pick up Alfred Lansing's

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Speaker 1: and Dorance read a few pages and then feel a

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Speaker 1: lot better about my situation, because, I mean, there really

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Speaker 1: is an incredible example of not only surviving in a

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Speaker 1: extreme environment, over twenty people marooned on an iceberg for

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Speaker 1: over a year after the ship sank in the Antarctic.

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Speaker 1: But also an example of leadership that Ernist Shackleton displayed

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Speaker 1: to get his crew to rescue themselves over the course

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Speaker 1: of a two year period where no one died. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just really an amazing, amazing feat of a teamwork

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Speaker 1: and leadership and survival. So I flew with that book

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Speaker 1: twice in space. That brought it with me. That's so great,

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Speaker 1: and I recommended as highly as you do and anyone

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Speaker 1: who had read it, among other things. It's just one

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Speaker 1: of the great adventure stories of all time. That twenty

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Speaker 1: fifteen mission where you were in space for a whole year,

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Speaker 1: that was extraordinary in that it was partly a physiological

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Speaker 1: study related to the fact that you have a twin brother,

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Speaker 1: Mark just elected the Senate, also former astronaut, and it

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Speaker 1: was sort of a unique opportunity to study what happens

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Speaker 1: to someone in space against the control group of someone

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Speaker 1: who wasn't in space. Tell me about that mission, what

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Speaker 1: you were trying to find out and what we learned. Well,

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Speaker 1: interestingly enough, spending a year in space had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with me having a twin brother, identical twin that

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Speaker 1: was also an astronaut. It was kind of an afterthought

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Speaker 1: after I was already selected, and kind of came up

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Speaker 1: out of a question I asked. When they were getting

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Speaker 1: ready to announce the crew of me and Misha, Russian

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Speaker 1: brother from another mother Russian cosmonaut, they were given us

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Speaker 1: was giving us a briefing on the science so we

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Speaker 1: in that briefing, I said, Hey, is there any thing

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Speaker 1: planned any kind of experiments with my brother and I,

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Speaker 1: because you know, being identical twins might give you a

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Speaker 1: Then they went back and talked about it for a

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Speaker 1: though it was a sample of one. They felt like

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Speaker 1: there would be enough anecdotal information that they would, you know,

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Speaker 1: give them insight on other areas to investigate. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was a bunch of science done and some really

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Speaker 1: interesting results. What have we learned so far from from

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Speaker 1: that somewhat spontaneous experiment. I'm sure that the data will

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Speaker 1: continue to accumulate as you both get older. Are you

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Speaker 1: Are you five years older than your twin brother now

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Speaker 1: as a result of spending a year in space? No,

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Speaker 1: you know that Einstein's what is it general relativity time

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Speaker 1: dilation thing. I think I'm now. I used to be

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Speaker 1: six minutes younger. Now I am like six minutes and

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Speaker 1: several milli seconds younger as a fact result of being

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Speaker 1: in space or so long. Some of the other results, though,

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Speaker 1: we're pretty interesting. You know, I'm not a I'm not

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Speaker 1: pretty interesting stuff. My telomeres change while it was in space.

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Speaker 1: My telomeres are these ends of your chromosomes, like little caps,

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Speaker 1: and as we get older, they get you know, more

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Speaker 1: shorter and more fraid. It's really an indication of our

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Speaker 1: physical age. And the hypothesis was that you'll mean, in space,

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Speaker 1: the stress, microgravity, the radiation, you know, my telomeres would

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Speaker 1: get shorter compared to my brothers. They actually got longer,

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Speaker 1: which was a surprise, and at first they thought, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe it was due to like exercise. We exercise a

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Speaker 1: lot in space, because if you don't, you'll turn into

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Speaker 1: gumby no bones, no bones or muscles. But yeah, so

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Speaker 1: we exercise a lot, and initially that's what they thought

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Speaker 1: it was maybe the controlled diet, and NASA the researchers

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Speaker 1: realized that there were there was a Japanese experiment going

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Speaker 1: on with these small worms. They were on the space

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Speaker 1: station at the same time, and their telomeres got better too.

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Speaker 1: And I never once saw those guys working out on

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Speaker 1: a treadmill or doing any type of exercise. So clearly

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Speaker 1: there's more to this than we understand. Yeah, were there

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Speaker 1: any psychological observations you mentioned on the your six month visit,

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Speaker 1: You're you're earlier from a shorter trip having a hard

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Speaker 1: time towards the end of it. If you talk anymore

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Speaker 1: about what that experience might have been like for our listeners,

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Speaker 1: you know, because I think it makes people feel good

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Speaker 1: to know that while asking outs are heroes, there are

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Speaker 1: also normal human beings like the rest of us. But

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Speaker 1: was there any comparison to what your brother went through

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Speaker 1: at any point? So, you know, a lot of those

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Speaker 1: studies were bass were cognitive studies, like we'd have to

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Speaker 1: do these tests that really measured your ability to you know,

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Speaker 1: focus and solve, you know, problems, things that you could

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Speaker 1: do on a computer throughout my year in space, I

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Speaker 1: continue to get better at these tests. I think maybe

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Speaker 1: it was just because I was taking it very seriously,

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Speaker 1: and then when I got back I got much worse.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's really just a reflection on how

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Speaker 1: being definitely affects your mental well being and vice versa.

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Speaker 1: But in the case of being on the space station

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Speaker 1: for a long time, I got to the end of

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Speaker 1: this flight feeling in much better shape mentally than I

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Speaker 1: did on the sixth month, And I think it's just

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Speaker 1: a testament to having a plan and sticking with the plan.

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Speaker 1: And the plan was to pace myself to get exercise

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Speaker 1: as much as I can, and you know, to follow

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Speaker 1: a schedule. I think it's important to have weekends much

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Speaker 1: different or as different as possible from your week days,

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Speaker 1: because you definitely you need something to look forward to,

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Speaker 1: otherwise the weeks will just run run together. But I

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Speaker 1: think the biggest thing for me was just understanding that

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Speaker 1: on that year long flight, the reason I was there

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Speaker 1: was to be there a really long time. And when

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Speaker 1: when you recognize you know what your mission is and

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Speaker 1: have the proper perspective, I think it makes it easier,

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Speaker 1: and I hope people will look at this situation, you know,

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Speaker 1: especially now we're coming into a really critical time with

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Speaker 1: rising cases, hospitalizations and you know, unfortunately deaths, but we're

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Speaker 1: also getting close to we can see the light at

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Speaker 1: the end of the tunnel, So I think people will naturally,

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Speaker 1: you know, put their guard down and the situation could

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Speaker 1: get much much worse because just because we have vaccines identified,

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're giving us any kind of immunity at

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Speaker 1: this point and won't be for some time. Unfortunately, they're

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Speaker 1: going to work eventually, but it's you know, this is

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Speaker 1: not the time to not take this seriously, and this

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Speaker 1: time is the holiday time, Thanksgiving and Christmas, and basically

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Speaker 1: the methods to a lot of people is to be safe,

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Speaker 1: especially if they're older relatives. If you shouldn't have a

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Speaker 1: family gathering, would you how do you how would you

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Speaker 1: advise people to cope with that? It's going to be tough,

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Speaker 1: There's no question. I've spent three Christmases in space. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's a unique place to spend the holiday, but at

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Speaker 1: the same time, you want to be you know, with

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Speaker 1: your friends and family. People just need to realize that

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Speaker 1: this is part of our collective mission. There is no

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Speaker 1: shame in asking for help. On the space station, I

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Speaker 1: had to talk to a psychiatrist every two weeks, so Scott,

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Speaker 1: all the astronauts would speak to a psychiatrist or a psychologists. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: every two weeks. Whether we like it or not, we

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Speaker 1: have a like a twenty minute conference with psychiatrist psychologist

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Speaker 1: for guys. I called them the brain trust I found.

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Speaker 1: At the beginning of the mission, I didn't even I

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Speaker 1: didn't like talking to them, But then as you know,

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Speaker 1: I got further into it, it was, you know, it

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Speaker 1: was a good way to share your feelings, your emotions,

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Speaker 1: how you're getting along with your crew, how you're feeling

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Speaker 1: about your life and your situation. And there's no shame

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Speaker 1: in that. People are generally very you know, acceptable with

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Speaker 1: going to a doctor for physical problems, but for some

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Speaker 1: reason not mental problems. But there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: resources out there. It's interesting. I mean, people of course

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Speaker 1: usually do therapy in person, and now a lot of

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Speaker 1: people are having some pression of the experience you did

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Speaker 1: of getting it on Zoom and trying to trying to

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Speaker 1: make that a human connection. It sounds like you've found

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Speaker 1: that it developed over time. Yeah. Absolutely, And you know,

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Speaker 1: I think just think it's important for people to realize

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of resources out out there. I

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Speaker 1: was recently working with the AARP Foundation and United Health

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Speaker 1: and they have this website that has an incredible amount

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Speaker 1: of helpful information. It's connect to Effect. It's the number

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Speaker 1: two and affect with an a dot org. And you know,

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Speaker 1: you can you can take some surveys and see if

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Speaker 1: you're susceptible to any types of depression and anxiety. Because

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Speaker 1: this is a public health crisis. I mean, the people

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Speaker 1: that are having depression as a result of isolation is

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Speaker 1: really a public health crisis like the you know, not

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Speaker 1: as severe as a pandemic obviously, but still not insignificant.

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Speaker 1: So and you can also find help in your community,

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Speaker 1: in the area that you live if you're experiencing stress

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Speaker 1: and depression and anxiety. So I encourage people to go

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Speaker 1: out there and find that information. Scott, we like to

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Speaker 1: wind up the show by asking what are some things

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Speaker 1: our listeners can do? You know, I wonder what you

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Speaker 1: would suggest to people in terms of resources for dealing

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Speaker 1: with it themselves, but also in terms of understanding the

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Speaker 1: problem of anxiety and depression that comes so often with isolation.

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Speaker 1: You know, other resources now I think are out there

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Speaker 1: that can, maybe, you know, help people find inspiration in

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Speaker 1: their lives. If not, you know Alfred Lansing's Endurance, maybe

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Speaker 1: my book Endurance. I'm not trying to do a shameless

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Speaker 1: plug here, but I think my story, you know, is

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Speaker 1: one of just never giving up and how you can,

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Speaker 1: with some inspiration, realize your dreams and hopefully it inspires

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Speaker 1: people and can inspire people to get through this situation

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Speaker 1: that we're currently And I also have a course that's

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Speaker 1: coming out Unknowable. Knowable's a kind of Spotify for learning

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Speaker 1: where you can sign up and listen to all these classes.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of resources out there, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I encourage people to seek them out and

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Speaker 1: help us get through this pandemic we're in with as

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Speaker 1: much energy and enthusiasm at the end as we had

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Speaker 1: in the beginning. Retired NASA astronauts Scott Kelly logged more

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Speaker 1: than five hundred and twenty total days in space. He

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Speaker 1: served as a flight engineer, Space Shuttle pilot, and mission commander,

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Speaker 1: among other roles. Be sure to check out our show

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Speaker 1: notes for suggestions Scott Kelly shared for ways to find

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Speaker 1: support during this difficult time, and if you're struggling with depression,

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Speaker 1: there's help available. You can call the Suicide Prevention Hotline

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Speaker 1: at one hundred two seven three eight two five five anytime,

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Speaker 1: day or night. Solvable is off next week for Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 1: We're thankful to you for listening. Please consider leaving us

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Speaker 1: a review and sharing an episode of Solvable with a

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Speaker 1: friend or family member. This season, Solvable is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by Pushkin Industries. Our show is produced by Camille Baptista.

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Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Jocelyn Frank. Catherine Gardo is our

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Speaker 1: managing producer, and our executive producer is Mia Loebell. Special

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Speaker 1: thanks to Kobe Guildford, Heather Faine, Eric Sandler, Carly Migliori,

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Speaker 1: and Kadisha Hollad. I'm Jacob Weisberg.