Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. Every so often, we run into a
Speaker 1: classic episode that only becomes more relevant over time. As
Speaker 1: we're gearing up for a new chapter in our series
Speaker 1: on Epstein, tune in for was Epstein a Spy? We're
Speaker 1: returning to this episode from twenty twenty, the Gallaine Maxwell Update?
Speaker 1: Who killed Robert Maxwell?
Speaker 2: Robert Maxwell? Who's that you know?
Speaker 3: Maxwell? The Maxwell House? Maxwell's Oh, Maxwell's silver hammer? No,
Speaker 3: not true. This is something that I actually hadn't really
Speaker 3: thought about in a hot minute. We're talking about Gelaine
Speaker 3: Maxwell's father, Robert Maxwell, who passed away under super mysterious
Speaker 3: and sketchy circumstances.
Speaker 1: One last non consensual swimming lesson.
Speaker 2: Hey, did you ever hear our episode on the octopus
Speaker 2: or the Promise software scandal? Robert Maxwell is at the
Speaker 2: heart of those What are those things? Just look them up.
Speaker 2: We'll listen to those episodes too, because this guy supposedly
Speaker 2: did a whole thing with Promise, a buged version that
Speaker 2: spied on governments.
Speaker 1: Let's roll the tape.
Speaker 4: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 4: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 4: learn this stuff. They Don't want you to know a
Speaker 4: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 2: my name is Noah.
Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
Speaker 1: our super producer Paul. Mission control decands most importantly, you
Speaker 1: are you, You are here, and that makes this stuff
Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. As we record today,
Speaker 1: Maxwell is currently incarcerated and trying desperately to get out
Speaker 1: of to get out of jail in time for the holidays.
Speaker 1: You might recognize this name, folks. It's most associated with
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein, the convicted child abuser who died under mysterious
Speaker 1: circumstances while in prison. We did a multi part series
Speaker 1: on this how it was a three four episodes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've done several updates since that series too, So yeah,
Speaker 2: there's a lot.
Speaker 3: Did we even do like an update to the update
Speaker 3: or we added like an addendum or something? Is there
Speaker 3: was some breaking news that day?
Speaker 1: Yes, that is correct.
Speaker 3: Hotel room if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 1: We recorded one of the last bits of that update
Speaker 1: in a hotel room as the as the story was developing.
Speaker 1: And we're returning today for an update on Galaine Maxwell,
Speaker 1: who was in the news a little bit, but not
Speaker 1: getting as much coverage. Hadn't been getting as much coverage
Speaker 1: as Epstein for a time. That changed recently for some
Speaker 1: very odd reasons. But let's start at the beginning with Glaine.
Speaker 1: Here are the facts.
Speaker 3: Gallaine Maxwell was born in France on Christmas Day, December
Speaker 3: of nineteen sixty one. As she was the youngest child
Speaker 3: of media magnate some might describe as disgraced media magnate
Speaker 3: Robert Maxwell. He founded a publishing house that went on
Speaker 3: to be quite successful called Pergamon Press. She was one
Speaker 3: of nine children, and she grew up in absolute opulence
Speaker 3: of the highest order. She lived in a mansion that
Speaker 3: had a name, you know, and you know it's a
Speaker 3: mansion if it has a name, that's more like an estate.
Speaker 3: And it had a great one, a very British one,
Speaker 3: Headington Hill Hall.
Speaker 2: It's a good name. And Maxwell is also pretty interesting
Speaker 2: and cool name.
Speaker 3: It always makes me think of that Beatles song, Maxwell's
Speaker 3: silver Hammer.
Speaker 2: Hey there you go, a lot like that. Robert Maxwell's
Speaker 2: a character that could be an entire episode. I mean
Speaker 2: maybe it should. Maybe eventually we'll do that. But let's
Speaker 2: just focus on Gelain here for a bit. You know,
Speaker 2: she grew up very in luxury, let's say, very privileged.
Speaker 2: Eventually she attended Oxford University, and she kind of she
Speaker 2: wasn't I wouldn't characterize it as being used. I would
Speaker 2: say she was effectively utilized by her father to become
Speaker 2: a socialite. As a socialite, as a person who makes connections,
Speaker 2: who kind of goes in first and you know, connects
Speaker 2: other people to the Maxwell family, I.
Speaker 3: Think of socialites, you think of people like Paris Hilt
Speaker 3: and you just sort of live these frivolous lives. She
Speaker 3: was almost more groomed to be like an operative, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. Like it was very much. I
Speaker 3: think you were right on when you first said it.
Speaker 3: I think she was used at an early age and
Speaker 3: kind of groomed to be this tool of her father's empire.
Speaker 1: And that could be said for other siblings, other members
Speaker 1: of the Maxwell clan. We're going to be planting some
Speaker 1: seeds about Sir Robert Maxwell and they will come to
Speaker 1: fruition in this episode. Yeah, socialite is a group is
Speaker 1: an umbrella term that can mean a number of things.
Speaker 1: Given that her father had a bedside manner that could
Speaker 1: be best described as terrible. He needed someone like this
Speaker 1: to be able to make those connections, to play the
Speaker 1: games of the wealthy and channel philanthropic endeavors, and you know,
Speaker 1: at times do what is essentially the legal version of
Speaker 1: laundering money. So today, of course, Galaid Maxwell is best
Speaker 1: known for her long running relationship with the the disgrace
Speaker 1: financier and convicted child abuser, the late Jeffrey Epstein. But
Speaker 1: there are still What I find interesting is there's still
Speaker 1: questions about how Maxwell and Epstein met. The Times reported
Speaker 1: that Maxwell and Epstein met in the early nineteen nineties
Speaker 1: after she had had a difficult breakup with Count Gianfranco
Speaker 1: Sigona Mozzoni, who, like a lot of like a lot
Speaker 1: of European aristocrats, took their vast generational wealth and channeled
Speaker 1: it into industries. This is a hotel guy, so she
Speaker 1: had a rough breakup. She's at this party in New York.
Speaker 1: She meets Jeffrey Epstein. They hit it off, but other
Speaker 1: sources argue they met before then, that they met in
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight. A there's a cool podcast about this
Speaker 1: called Broken Seeking Justice, and in there they relay information
Speaker 1: from I'm a convicted con artist, a Ponzi scheme guy
Speaker 1: named Steve Hoffenberg, and he had once upon a time
Speaker 1: worked with Epstein, and on that show he says that
Speaker 1: Gallaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein met through her father, Robert Maxwell,
Speaker 1: and Matt I love your point there. He is best
Speaker 1: known as Robert Maxwell, but that's not the name he
Speaker 1: was born with. The podcast, by the way, was unable
Speaker 1: to corroborate Hoffenberg's claim. But then there are other sources
Speaker 1: that say a very similar thing.
Speaker 2: And one of these people was a former staffer of
Speaker 2: Epstein's who says that Gallaine Maxwell was making them look
Speaker 2: at albums, like photo albums and just kind of going over, oh,
Speaker 2: here's this, here's this person, and it was photos from
Speaker 2: her father's funeral. Apparently, when this staffer was just told, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's when I met Jeffrey. Just we're talking about the
Speaker 2: Siga Hotels clan, you know, kind of connecting up there
Speaker 2: with the Maxwell family. You have to know that if
Speaker 2: you've ever heard of The Daily Mail or I mean
Speaker 2: the Mirror, that's what that's what her family owned.
Speaker 3: Which are all kind of trash papers. If I'm not
Speaker 3: my stad mean, they're sort of like considered lower on
Speaker 3: the journalistic integrity totem pole.
Speaker 2: Let us say, well, yeah, and especially in you know,
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, in the twenty two thousands and stuff. But
Speaker 2: remember we're talking about the eighties and nineties, like as
Speaker 2: these papers are kind of first coming to become a.
Speaker 1: Thing, and they were still I mean, Maxwell could be
Speaker 1: described as a media magnate, but he was also often
Speaker 1: described as a tabloid tycoon.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like a yellow journalist kind of type. Deal.
Speaker 1: Right, So however, Maxwell, Galain Maxwell and Epstein actually did meet.
Speaker 1: They soon became an item. They were dating for some
Speaker 1: amount of time, and afterward they remained to the public eye.
Speaker 1: As you know, is associates one of those relationships that
Speaker 1: ends amicably, no harm, no foul. That's a that's a
Speaker 1: beautiful thing, as anybody who's experienced that can attest. If
Speaker 1: you want full details on the extent of Epstein's proving
Speaker 1: crimes and Galaine Maxwell's alleged involvement, then check out our
Speaker 1: multi part series on Epstein. It is not appropriate for
Speaker 1: all audience members. It goes very it's a very in
Speaker 1: depth look at his origins, what he did, his close calls,
Speaker 1: how he got caught, and the questions remaining around his.
Speaker 3: Death, and I haven't watched it yet, but i've been
Speaker 3: maybe because it's just, you know, times are dark. I
Speaker 3: kind of want like uplifting material. But there's a Netflix
Speaker 3: documentary that's supposed to be quite good as well.
Speaker 1: Essentially, bottom line is that Glaine Maxwell is currently accused
Speaker 1: of aiding and abetting multiple acts of sexual abuse, grooming, afficking,
Speaker 1: and more. This included her scouting out victims of Epstein
Speaker 1: and his associates like Prince Andrew. This also included accusations
Speaker 1: of occasionally participating in sexual acts with the victims herself,
Speaker 1: so actually getting her quote unquote hands sturdy.
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of alleged activity there that isn't necessarily,
Speaker 2: you know, identified in any of the cases against her,
Speaker 2: but alleged activity activity of her, specifically recording a lot
Speaker 2: of these activities.
Speaker 1: Right right, which comes into play later because we do
Speaker 1: know that Epstein obsessively recorded encounters, especially with especially encounters
Speaker 1: that he had brokereed he and Galaine had broken between
Speaker 1: the victims and notable figures in the world of politics,
Speaker 1: in the world of aristocracy, and in the world of business.
Speaker 1: Robert Maxwell is one of these giants. He wasn't. As
Speaker 1: far as we know, he was aware of Epstein and
Speaker 1: had worked with him or interacted with him, and he
Speaker 1: has some murky involvement, but he's not in this story.
Speaker 1: The reason you don't see him too often in the
Speaker 1: Epstein saga is because he died in nineteen ninety one,
Speaker 1: and about nineteen days after his death, someone took a
Speaker 1: photo at the Plaza Hotel during a memorial event for
Speaker 1: this guy. And this photo shows Galain Maxwell and Jeffrey
Speaker 1: Epstein mid conversation, and they look like they're having a
Speaker 1: pleasant time. Just remember, we'll get back to Robert in
Speaker 1: a second. We're just planting the seeds. So back to
Speaker 1: the crimes. Epstein quick timeline arrested July sixth, twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1: Unlike the previous rest this one sticks. He goes on
Speaker 1: to die in jail on August tenth, twenty nineteen, before
Speaker 1: he reaches trial. Lane Maxwell is arrested in New Hampshire
Speaker 1: on July second, twenty twenty, in a house that she
Speaker 1: bought with cash. It's a million dollar house. It makes
Speaker 1: me think of our Foreign Investment episode. She's arrests on
Speaker 1: multiple charges related to this abuse of young women and
Speaker 1: Girls by Epstein. Her trial has been set for July twelfth,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. Like everything else, that's probably pandemic pending.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and as we are recording this episode, she currently
Speaker 2: sits in prison. Her bail was denied because she has
Speaker 2: a lot of money and access to planes. She also,
Speaker 2: by the way, has a helicopter or pilot's license. I
Speaker 2: don't know if it's still valid today, but at one
Speaker 2: point she got a helicopter pilot's license and was gifted
Speaker 2: a helicopter by Epstein.
Speaker 1: Her father actually is also just a peek into this guy.
Speaker 1: Her father was actually a big fan of helicopters too.
Speaker 1: He owned a He had a helicopters strip on top
Speaker 1: of one of his buildings almost entirely so he could
Speaker 1: use it to fly over Rupert Murdoch's office on his
Speaker 1: way to and from things because Rupert Murdoch did not
Speaker 1: have a helicopter.
Speaker 3: Do you think he like with Haka Lugi out of
Speaker 3: the helicopter, like on to the top of the building.
Speaker 1: Just I'm sure he was.
Speaker 4: He was.
Speaker 1: Yeah. He was also known for urinating off the top
Speaker 1: of his office building and the side of his boat
Speaker 1: and off the side of his boat. But at least
Speaker 1: he was a yacht.
Speaker 2: Guys. You can't call it a book, sure.
Speaker 1: But his at least he was wearing clothes when he
Speaker 1: was urinating off the building. That's not the case with
Speaker 1: the ship.
Speaker 3: Now, I wanted to add one little detail that I
Speaker 3: hadn't heard before when I was watching like an old
Speaker 3: sixty minutes not old like you know, from when the
Speaker 3: Epstein case kind of first really heat it up, and
Speaker 3: it was talking about gal Maxwell and from the perspective
Speaker 3: of this young former art student at the New York
Speaker 3: Art Institute or I'm sorry, the New York New York
Speaker 3: Academy of Art and Epstein apparently and Maxwell were benefactors
Speaker 3: of Hers name was Maria Farmer, and like they really
Speaker 3: liked her paintings and bought some of her first work,
Speaker 3: and then Epstein hired her to kind of be his
Speaker 3: art buyer, like for his mansion, to like you know,
Speaker 3: like outfit his home with like, you know, good art,
Speaker 3: tasteful art, because he liked her taste. But she would
Speaker 3: ride around with them all the time, and we spent
Speaker 3: a lot of time with Maxwell personally. She talks about
Speaker 3: a story in this sixty minutes where Maxwell would very
Speaker 3: frantically at the end of the day say, oh, gosh,
Speaker 3: I've got to go find the new Biles. I have
Speaker 3: to go get the new Biles. And she's like, I
Speaker 3: don't know what that means. And she realized that she
Speaker 3: would go just like run out of the car, go
Speaker 3: to like parks or like when schools were letting out,
Speaker 3: and she would see her just write down her phone
Speaker 3: number and give it to these young girls. Some of them,
Speaker 3: she said that had braces that were like, you know
Speaker 3: that young And then they'd turn up to the mansion
Speaker 3: and they just say, Oh, they're going to be models,
Speaker 3: you know for what. I don't know what do you
Speaker 3: need models for if you're a financier, but.
Speaker 1: Yeah, financial models. So that's a common thing. No, you're
Speaker 1: right though, that sixty minutes is worth a watch. You
Speaker 1: can also hear a couple of audio interviews I think
Speaker 1: with the same person, same victim. So it appears that
Speaker 1: now currently it appears that Galaine Maxwell also has another
Speaker 1: close romantic relationship a tech ceo and former Coastguard officer
Speaker 1: named Scott Borgerson. They met some time ago before the arrest,
Speaker 1: and they interacted also through an obscure organization Maxwell founded
Speaker 1: called the Tara mar Projects like Earthsea Project, and they
Speaker 1: appeared to be in a relationship, although Borgodson denied it.
Speaker 1: For a while they were living together in Manchester by
Speaker 1: the Sea after Maxwell Soldier town Home on the Upper
Speaker 1: East Side in twenty sixteen. That's the same year she
Speaker 1: struck several confidential settlements in civil court with women who
Speaker 1: said they were exploited by Epstein. But Porkinson is interesting, Okay,
Speaker 1: So he's not this landed gentry or he's not someone
Speaker 1: who inherited a bunch of money. He comes from rural Missouri.
Speaker 1: He actually did earn his way in the world, and
Speaker 1: so he's somewhat anomalous in a lot of these upper
Speaker 1: echelon circles. He also has a bit of red meat
Speaker 1: for the more conspiracy minded of us. He also worked
Speaker 1: for the Council on Foreign Relations from two thousand and
Speaker 1: seven two thousand and eight he was Fellow in residence
Speaker 1: and then and then he transferred and became visiting fellow
Speaker 1: for Ocean's governance with the organization from eight to twenty ten.
Speaker 3: It's kind of interesting, like I would maybe you kind
Speaker 3: of characterize someone like this as new money right, because
Speaker 3: all of these like you know, landed gentries, as you say,
Speaker 3: Ben in the generational money, they often look down on
Speaker 3: folks like that, which is ironic considering it typically means
Speaker 3: that someone actually bootstrapped themselves from nothing to like being
Speaker 3: a success, as opposed to just kind of inheriting it
Speaker 3: and like you know, parleying their you know fortune they
Speaker 3: were born with into more you know fortune. It almost
Speaker 3: is interesting that that's usually almost a term of abuse.
Speaker 3: So it is interesting that he would have found his
Speaker 3: way into the inner circle with someone like Maxwell.
Speaker 1: In the CFR and then at this, at one of
Speaker 1: these hearings post arrest, it's very weird, prosecutors drop a
Speaker 1: bombshell because they say that Maxwell is in fact secretly married,
Speaker 1: but they do not disclose the identity of her spouse.
Speaker 1: It's just not Epstein. At some point post relationship with Epstein,
Speaker 1: she got married, and investigators weren't able to find any
Speaker 1: information about this on publicly available, widely available databases. But
Speaker 1: that could mean that they married in a foreign country
Speaker 1: or something. There are a couple of different ways that
Speaker 1: could happen and still be legal. But now that spouse
Speaker 1: appears to be Scott Borgensen. This has not been solidly proven,
Speaker 1: but it adds some wrinkles to an already twisting story.
Speaker 1: There's a great New York Times article about this that
Speaker 1: quotes a defense lawyer, Jeffrey Chabrow, and he says something
Speaker 1: very interesting, and I don't want to be too cynical
Speaker 1: about this, but he raises a good point when he says,
Speaker 1: there are reasons that people might get married other than love,
Speaker 1: especially if they're facing a criminal indictment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, one of them is kind of obvious
Speaker 2: if you've watched any crime procedural on television, that whole like,
Speaker 2: you can't test against me if you're my spouse thing.
Speaker 2: But the big one, and the one that makes a
Speaker 2: lot of sense here, I think, is the concept that
Speaker 2: being married can help you move some money around a
Speaker 2: lot easier. And we know, at least according to the reports,
Speaker 2: that Gilaine Maxwell is worth around twenty million. That's what
Speaker 2: she kind of has or had, I guess at one
Speaker 2: point very recently. But it would seem that the circles
Speaker 2: in which she runs her background, her interactions with Epstein,
Speaker 2: the amount of money that he had and his Epstein
Speaker 2: estate currently has. It feels like maybe there is or
Speaker 2: was more money to be moved around.
Speaker 1: Curious or and curious or yeah, and in the latest news.
Speaker 1: So right now, just to be completely transparent, we're recording
Speaker 1: this on December eleventh, or preparing for this episode on
Speaker 1: December tenth. Yesterday, reports emerged that Maxwell Borgenson and some
Speaker 1: of Maxwell's siblings are teaming up to propose a somewhere
Speaker 1: between a twenty eight point five million and thirty million
Speaker 1: dollar bail package. It's twenty five million straight from Scott,
Speaker 1: the other five ish million from her siblings, and it's
Speaker 1: an attempt to free Maxwell before the holidays. They're trying
Speaker 1: to get her out of the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn,
Speaker 1: and they say this, she'll relinquish her multiple passports, she'll
Speaker 1: go to house arrests, she'll get electronic monitoring. She has
Speaker 1: a French passport that's one of the one she has,
Speaker 1: and French authorities have brought a case against her there
Speaker 1: as well. The team that is trying to get her out,
Speaker 1: the lawyers Borkinson and the siblings haul the plan operation
Speaker 1: get Gallain out. We're not even we're not even at
Speaker 1: the crazy part yet. To get there, we have to
Speaker 1: look at some speculation.
Speaker 2: Can we say, can we just say maybe they spend
Speaker 2: thirty million dollars to get her out just to have
Speaker 2: like Christmas dinner? Yeah, but like separated by six feet
Speaker 2: wearing masks. That's just that's hilarious to me.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure if you have a all right, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna say it. Wealthy people are going to get the
Speaker 1: vaccines first, Oh, no question. So I think that they
Speaker 1: may already be. I don't know, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: don't want to I don't want to be that person.
Speaker 1: But statistically, they're much more likely to enjoy post pandemic
Speaker 1: freedoms faster, more quickly. So to get to the actual
Speaker 1: crazy part of this, we have to look at some
Speaker 1: of the speculation, some of the concerns, some of the
Speaker 1: rumors that have been spreading as Galain Maxwell has been incarcerated. First,
Speaker 1: number one, let's point out the biggest badger in the bag.
Speaker 1: People are worried about the possibility that she will be
Speaker 1: quote Epstein's does that mean.
Speaker 2: As though she would appear to commit suicide while being
Speaker 2: held in prison, Although perhaps it was not suicide, that's
Speaker 2: the speculation, and you know, there we can't prove, right
Speaker 2: now on this podcast, And I don't think there's anyone
Speaker 2: out there right now that can come on a podcast
Speaker 2: and prove to you for sure that Jeffrey Epstein did
Speaker 2: not commit suicide. But as we've talked about on numerous
Speaker 2: episodes on this show, Jeffrey Epstein's death feels ridiculously fishy.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean the whole like the guards fell
Speaker 3: asleep story. I mean, that's that's just come.
Speaker 1: On busted cameras, the hyoid bone, the timeline. There are
Speaker 1: issues with it. Even if you consider yourself convinced that
Speaker 1: he took his own life and a series of ridiculously
Speaker 1: incompetent actions allowed him to do so sucessfully, there's still
Speaker 1: a lot of questions. And it's not just you know,
Speaker 1: people in the Internet or people on podcasts speculating about this.
Speaker 1: There are also investigative journalists, numerous citizen observers, legal groups,
Speaker 1: and Epstein's own lawyers say that they don't believe the
Speaker 1: official story. So naturally, similar concerns are going to arise
Speaker 1: regarding Maxwell's safety. But then that from that, okay, from
Speaker 1: that piece, we build another one. This there's a I'm
Speaker 1: doing a bit of a conspiratorial Bob Ross thing right.
Speaker 1: So our first brushstroke is the circumstances of death. Our
Speaker 1: second brush stroke is concerns about, Okay, if Jeffrey Epstein
Speaker 1: was murdered, who was behind it? Their concerns that there
Speaker 1: might be some person or some organization behind his murder,
Speaker 1: and then therefore they would be the most likely culprit
Speaker 1: were anything untoward to happen to Glad Maxwell.
Speaker 2: He was six?
Speaker 1: Was it six?
Speaker 2: Yes, Prince Andrew, am I six? That's just I'm joking there, No.
Speaker 3: No, dude, I mean to me, it's almost like you
Speaker 3: could take your pick. There are probably several world governments
Speaker 3: that would have had reasons to bump that guy off
Speaker 3: with as international as his clientele was in terms of
Speaker 3: the investments. God knows, that was probably a lot of
Speaker 3: crooked stuff going on there, not to mention all the
Speaker 3: people that were on his plane and on his island
Speaker 3: and complicit that we don't even maybe know about, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I do want to say that, Prince Andrew,
Speaker 1: if you're listening, I think no Sweat would be really
Speaker 1: cool street name for your back then.
Speaker 2: I didn't sweat back then.
Speaker 3: Explain the origin of that to me, Ben real quick,
Speaker 3: I heard you mentioned it at the top of the show.
Speaker 3: I don't think i've heard that one. He was literally saying,
Speaker 3: I don't sweat, so that you couldn't have my DNA
Speaker 3: or something or what's he saying.
Speaker 1: So in twenty nineteen, he was trying to prove that
Speaker 1: he did not assault a seventeen year old in the
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, and part of his explanation for that was
Speaker 1: that the victim said that she danced with the Prince
Speaker 1: and you Prince Andrew was sweating profusely and then so
Speaker 1: much so that she had to go have a bath
Speaker 1: later because she was sodden from it. And then he said, quote,
Speaker 1: there's a slight problem with the sweating because I have
Speaker 1: a peculiar medical condition, which is that I don't sweat,
Speaker 1: or I didn't sweat at the time, and that was
Speaker 1: was it. Yes, I didn't sweat at the time.
Speaker 3: So does he just like hang his head out the
Speaker 3: window with his tongue out like a dog like? Is
Speaker 3: that how he.
Speaker 1: Releases didn't go it, didn't go into it. I think
Speaker 1: it's a good street name.
Speaker 2: And in that same interview, the interviewer says to Prince Andrew,
Speaker 2: just for the record, you've been on his private plane. Yes,
Speaker 2: you've been to stay on his private island. Uh huh,
Speaker 2: on his home own palm Beach. Sure, you've visited Gulayne
Speaker 2: Maxwell's house in Belgrade. Here in London, I.
Speaker 3: Mean, yeah, what are you getting at? I mean, come on, he.
Speaker 2: Yes for the record on our show. He just says
Speaker 2: yes to every one of those questions. But I don't
Speaker 2: really know why we're saying this, mostly just because that
Speaker 2: concept that, oh, it couldn't have been me, because of
Speaker 2: the whole sweat thing. When you compare that to the
Speaker 2: fact that he was in all of those places where
Speaker 2: the alleged sexual abuse was occurring, it just you can
Speaker 2: tell it feels off.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So that's where we get to the idea, the
Speaker 1: concern of conspiracy, collusion, some sort of hidden hand at
Speaker 1: play behind this. Again, if these were homicide, If this
Speaker 1: were a homicide, because Epstein had tons of potential enemies,
Speaker 1: relatives of his victims, which were sadly, probably the least
Speaker 1: threatening because they will tend to have the smallest amount
Speaker 1: of state level influence and ungodly amounts of money. So
Speaker 1: he also had those powerful associates, including a course prince
Speaker 1: Andrew Prince Prince no sweat Andrew, and they may have
Speaker 1: wanted to silence him before he revealed any damning information
Speaker 1: about their own involvement in his sex ring. There are
Speaker 1: also possible intelligence organizations using Epstein as a part of
Speaker 1: an elaborate honey trap operation to secure leverage over political
Speaker 1: industrial elites. Again, that's not proven, but I think that's
Speaker 1: the first place a lot of our minds went post
Speaker 1: death at this point. Each of these groups we just
Speaker 1: described could have a motive if again Epstein was murdered.
Speaker 1: But how could we if that's the case, How could
Speaker 1: we figure out the most likely culprit? For some the
Speaker 1: answer can be found by approaching this through an entirely
Speaker 1: different angle and asking ourselves not who killed Jeffrey Epstein,
Speaker 1: but asking ourselves who killed Roger Maxwell? What are we
Speaker 1: talking about? We'll tell you after a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 2: So Glaine's father, Robert Maxwell, who we talked about a
Speaker 2: little bit at the top of this show. He's a
Speaker 2: media tycoon. He went missing on November fifth, nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 2: He was sixty eight years old. He was last seen
Speaker 2: on his yacht named the Lady Gallaine at four twenty
Speaker 2: five am local time where he was and after a
Speaker 2: bit of searching and attempts to locate him, his body
Speaker 2: was found nude in the Atlantic Ocean, and this was
Speaker 2: just off of the Canary Islands where his yacht was
Speaker 2: found and his body was discovered.
Speaker 1: The official conclusion from an inquest held in December of
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one found that his death was the result
Speaker 1: of a heart attack in conjunction with accidental drowning. Essentially,
Speaker 1: that he was nude urinating off the side of the
Speaker 1: vessel as he often did there. It is from yeah,
Speaker 1: is noted by several It's not conjecture. It's noted by
Speaker 1: several people throughout his life, and that while he was
Speaker 1: in this act he fell overboard, whether it was from
Speaker 1: staggering from the heart attack, or whether he slipped the railing.
Speaker 1: Here is wire on this yacht, and he's a pretty
Speaker 1: large man. He's pretty top heavy, so gravity is working
Speaker 1: against him if he tilts, you know, too far forward.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Three pathologists were unable to agree
Speaker 1: on the cause of death. You'll also see that Maxwell
Speaker 1: did not have serious heart conditions. He also he didn't
Speaker 1: seem to have serious lung conditions, though he did have
Speaker 1: earlier lung operations. They're just saying it's not as if
Speaker 1: there were a ticking cardiac time bomb. So murder was
Speaker 1: ruled out by the judge. Suicide was also kind of
Speaker 1: taken off the board. One of his sons also said,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think my old man would take
Speaker 1: his own life. It wasn't in his makeup or his mentality.
Speaker 2: And it was his yacht, and he frequently urinated off
Speaker 2: the side. And if through toxicology reports they didn't find
Speaker 2: that he was grossly intoxicated, drunk, or you know, on
Speaker 2: some other substance that would cause him to lose his
Speaker 2: footing easily, I don't know. If it just feels weird,
Speaker 2: feels very weird.
Speaker 1: And they proceed with the funeral. His funeral is a
Speaker 1: huge event. We mentioned that memorial service in New York
Speaker 1: right at the Plaza Hotel, but his actual funeral takes
Speaker 1: place in Israel. The funeral is attended by the Prime Minister,
Speaker 1: by the President, by at least six former and currently
Speaker 1: serving heads of Israeli intelligence, and then politicians from across
Speaker 1: the domestic political spectrum there, including the opposition party. He's
Speaker 1: buried on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. This is
Speaker 1: a huge affair, And of course, yes, it makes sense
Speaker 1: that it would be a huge affair because of his
Speaker 1: stature in the media industry. However, it is the guest
Speaker 1: list is unusual. Like Rupert Murdoch for instance, might not
Speaker 1: might have a ton of celebrities at a funeral, might
Speaker 1: have some politicians he was friends with, But would he
Speaker 1: have the current president, would he have prime ministers? Would
Speaker 1: he have like the head of the ANSSA or the
Speaker 1: FBI or the CIA there as well, just to make
Speaker 1: sure he's in the grave, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe that's what it is, just to ensure to
Speaker 2: do the whole wake thing and just watch him for
Speaker 2: a while and all right, all right, we'll let him go.
Speaker 2: But you're right that and we won't know until Murdock
Speaker 2: goes what happens with his funeral.
Speaker 1: But and I'm not wishing death on anyone, no.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no no.
Speaker 3: It's just.
Speaker 2: The intelligence thing is what makes me wonder, not necessarily
Speaker 2: the heads of state, it's the intelligence side.
Speaker 3: It's just hmmm, I want to say too, there's a
Speaker 3: lot of parallels here between the epstein death and this
Speaker 3: death in that you know, Epstein also didn't strike anybody
Speaker 3: that knew him as the type that would have had
Speaker 3: the wherewithal to kill himself under any circumstances. You know,
Speaker 3: it takes a certain amount of what's the word bravado
Speaker 3: and kind of like any interview you here with Epstein,
Speaker 3: he's always talking about how he knows himself. He uses
Speaker 3: the fact that he has a secret eye to explore
Speaker 3: all of the things that it means to be me.
Speaker 3: And you know, he talks like someone with a lot
Speaker 3: of with very self possessed that I don't really buy
Speaker 3: would have done that. And this Maxwell seems to have
Speaker 3: a very similar character.
Speaker 1: Oh sure, Yeah, here's the thing. So there are all
Speaker 1: these pieces that we have to add to our painting.
Speaker 1: Here years later, years after his death, after the official conclusions, etc.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, there's this production crew. They're
Speaker 1: researching a biopic for BBC and it's on Maxwell. It's
Speaker 1: called In a Burst of Creativity Maxwell, And they found
Speaker 1: a suitcase in the possession of one of his security guys.
Speaker 1: This suitcase contained a bunch of tapes because in the
Speaker 1: time leading up to his death, he had become paranoid,
Speaker 1: and he had started wiring the offices illegally of his
Speaker 1: employees and various associates, the same way that Nixon obsessively
Speaker 1: recorded everything. So that's a strong indication that he appeared
Speaker 1: to believe trouble was on the horizon. But why Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: good question, Matt. That brings us to his other two careers.
Speaker 1: I'd like to call them, because you see, in addition
Speaker 1: to being a medium mogul, it turns out that Maxwell
Speaker 1: had not one, but two other career pursuits. First, he
Speaker 1: was making a living as a thief.
Speaker 2: After his death, when all this stuff came to light,
Speaker 2: everybody changed their tune about Robert Maxwell. It was only
Speaker 2: a couple of months too after he died where a
Speaker 2: bunch of banks, several banks came forward and they were
Speaker 2: frantically calling on some loans that have been taken out,
Speaker 2: and one of them had to do with the pension
Speaker 2: for the companies that he had started that he was running.
Speaker 2: You see, to come to light that Maxwell had been using,
Speaker 2: or had used already hundreds of millions of pounds from
Speaker 2: his various companies pension funds to shore up shares of
Speaker 2: the Mirror Group in an attempt to save the organization
Speaker 2: for bankruptcy. There were articles in papers just before his
Speaker 2: death that were calling him the man that saved the Mirror,
Speaker 2: the guy that had somehow come up with all this
Speaker 2: money to prop it up, to prop up the Mirror
Speaker 2: Group and to make it okay for all the employees.
Speaker 2: But what he'd actually been doing is stealing their pensions.
Speaker 2: Four hundred and sixty million pounds worth.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean, let's think about it. Like in
Speaker 3: the in the UK, especially senior citizens are often referred
Speaker 3: to as pensioners because that's how they live when they're
Speaker 3: older and can't work anymore. So he's a sly robbing
Speaker 3: from little old men and women to pay back his loans.
Speaker 1: Right, However, the money moved, it was no longer moving
Speaker 1: in his favor, which just let me once again shout
Speaker 1: out the fantastic graphic novel series The Black Monday Murders.
Speaker 1: If you haven't read it yet, go read it. It's
Speaker 1: by an author named Jonathan Hickman. I think the artist's
Speaker 1: name is Tim Koker. But if you are one of
Speaker 1: if you are Hickman and you are listening to this podcast,
Speaker 1: put out, please man, put out volume nine, Don't Leave
Speaker 1: Me Hanging?
Speaker 3: Have you dropped this one on the podcast before? Ben?
Speaker 1: I can't remember some podcasts. I'm a big fan of it.
Speaker 3: Sounds great.
Speaker 1: Oh god, it's I don't even want to give you
Speaker 1: the rough description. I'll tell you off air really quickly.
Speaker 3: Another quick recommendation, don't want to spoil anything. But there's
Speaker 3: this incredible new show that just hit Amazon Prime. I
Speaker 3: think he wants the first five episodes for free, but
Speaker 3: it's on AMC Plus and it's called The Gangs of
Speaker 3: London and it's like a out this organized crime syndicate
Speaker 3: in London that is all revolves around a front facingly
Speaker 3: legitimate real estate mogul kind of situation. And there's a
Speaker 3: lot of parallels with these types of things in that
Speaker 3: show in terms of like laundering money and intrigue and
Speaker 3: you know, just like kind of faction warring factions and stuff.
Speaker 3: And it goes to show you how, at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, like business is war and there are
Speaker 3: no rules, you know, because people you get to a
Speaker 3: certain point where you just want more and more and more,
Speaker 3: and being denied that you'll do anything that you have
Speaker 3: to to keep what you have and to get more.
Speaker 2: It makes me think about Maxwell flying over Murdoch's tower, right,
Speaker 2: you know in his helicopters, well, knowing that he's just
Speaker 2: taking that money pulled it into his helicopters.
Speaker 1: Actually, so this is true, but it gets away from
Speaker 1: it gets away from Maxwell because you know, you find
Speaker 1: great fortune and you find great danger when you were
Speaker 1: functioning at these heights. Right. So the bottom line is this.
Speaker 1: There's a bunch of back and forth. It turns out
Speaker 1: that the way the way the financial catastrophe is handled
Speaker 1: means that his pension theft is partially repaid from public funds,
Speaker 1: from UK taxpayer money, and the pensioners get eventually works
Speaker 1: out they get around half of what they were supposed to,
Speaker 1: which can absolutely wreck your life in retirement.
Speaker 3: Is that a bailout? Ben Is that what that would
Speaker 3: be called? Like literally the government stepping in and giving
Speaker 3: taxpayer money to bail out a corrupt business person who
Speaker 3: stole from pensioners.
Speaker 1: It kind of is there's this public private cooperation that occurs.
Speaker 1: The pension funds get replenished with money from two banks
Speaker 1: Golden Sacks, Sheerson Layman and the British government, and it
Speaker 1: gets supported by a surplus taken by the government of
Speaker 1: like one hundred million pounds, So that means that, yeah,
Speaker 1: the British taxpayers paid for part of this guy's crimes.
Speaker 1: But that's still not enough to save the company or
Speaker 1: even save all the entirety of the pensions. So the
Speaker 1: Maxwell Companies file for bankruptcy in nineteen ninety two. So
Speaker 1: this is all for nothing. Essentially, it was to staunch
Speaker 1: the wounds. Yeah, it didn't save the company, which was
Speaker 1: Maxwell's aim, but it did at least give those people
Speaker 1: some of their pension back.
Speaker 3: Well, I just mean the robbing, like the stealing of
Speaker 3: the pension funds, was for naught because it didn't even
Speaker 3: ultimately accomplish the goal that he was hoping, which is
Speaker 3: to keep the company from filing for bankruptcy.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, and you know he's dead when the
Speaker 1: company files for bankruptcy has passed on. One of his sons,
Speaker 1: Kevin Maxwell, is later declared bankrupt with debts to the
Speaker 1: tune of four hundred million pounds. This makes him This
Speaker 1: gives him the dubious distinction of being the most bankrupt
Speaker 1: person in the United Kingdom. So that's great heights and
Speaker 1: great lows. He and another sibling, Ian and two other
Speaker 1: former directors went on trial in ninety five for a
Speaker 1: conspiracy to defraud, but they were unanimously acquitted by a
Speaker 1: jury of their peers. So that's his other career. That's
Speaker 1: Robert Maxwell's other career. It's proven it was a thief,
Speaker 1: regardless of his motivations. He has a second career. It's
Speaker 1: a career that. Yeah, it's a career that many of
Speaker 1: our astute fellow listeners knew we were going to get to.
Speaker 1: And we'll bring this back to Galain in a second,
Speaker 1: but we need to we need to explore this because
Speaker 1: not enough people talk about it. His second career was
Speaker 1: as a spy. I am ready at this point to say,
Speaker 1: you know, I am ready to say that I personally
Speaker 1: believe this is true.
Speaker 2: In my opinion, I feel that as well. I'm I'm
Speaker 2: not gonna say it out loud like that yet, but
Speaker 2: listen to this, Okay.
Speaker 3: Now, it feels there's a ring of truth to it,
Speaker 3: to be sure.
Speaker 1: So back to this funeral. There's a line from the
Speaker 1: eulogy that stuck out to multiple observers and I'm paraphrasing here,
Speaker 1: but it's this nobody will ever know the extent to
Speaker 1: which Maxwell helped Israel. This could be, This could be
Speaker 1: a couple of things. First, people say very nice things
Speaker 1: about their loved ones at eulogies. That's what eulogies are for. Secondly, yeah,
Speaker 1: Robert max Well is commonly regarded as a hero in Israel.
Speaker 1: He provided immense amounts of funding for various industries. He
Speaker 1: was instrumental maintaining lines of communication between Soviet countries and
Speaker 1: Israel during the Cold War era. There's a ton of
Speaker 1: stuff there. But the big question is was he just
Speaker 1: a really wealthy guy using his immense wealth to help
Speaker 1: out a nation that he saw as a homeland or
Speaker 1: was there something different? Because multiple journalists, including respectable ones
Speaker 1: like seboor Hirsch, have basically come out and said this
Speaker 1: guy is massade.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and just really quickly, like just look
Speaker 3: at who attended his memorial service. You had Israeli Prime
Speaker 3: Minister Etzak Shamir at the time, Israeli President Kaim Hertzog
Speaker 3: and a source quota to saying no less than sixving
Speaker 3: and former heads of Israeli intelligence, and many dignitaries and
Speaker 3: politicians both government and opposition.
Speaker 2: And there's some interesting stuff that was reported. Back in
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, there were several outlets that had published reports
Speaker 2: that the FBI was a bit afraid that Maxwell was
Speaker 2: some kind of spy. They though thought he was a
Speaker 2: Soviet spy, and they thought he was trying to essentially
Speaker 2: use his publishing empire to send intelligence I guess, to
Speaker 2: breach the Iron Curtain through his publications, if that makes sense,
Speaker 2: to go pass through it. And you know, there was
Speaker 2: an investigation and eventually they did close it, and I
Speaker 2: think that was in nineteen fifty seven. It was way back,
Speaker 2: but the suspicions remained in both the United States and
Speaker 2: the United Kingdom's governments.
Speaker 1: Also do want to point out, you know, intelligence agencies
Speaker 1: like to portray themselves as domestically in step with one another,
Speaker 1: but intelligence agencies have shut down each other's investigations before.
Speaker 1: They're not they're not always on the same team. And
Speaker 1: I could tell you a little bit about what the
Speaker 1: FBI suspicions were like in the in the fifties. There
Speaker 1: they were they were concerned that Maxwell was taking scientific
Speaker 1: journals and research and then using his publishing empire as
Speaker 1: an avenue to translate those articles into Russian and then
Speaker 1: communicate them to Soviet forces, so this could be seen
Speaker 1: as this could be seen as conveying privileged information. That
Speaker 1: was their main concern, that he might be helping them
Speaker 1: get a technological leap frog on the US, which makes sense.
Speaker 2: It'd be weird to use a publication for that, right,
Speaker 2: because that would be more of a slider under a
Speaker 2: door somewhere.
Speaker 1: Right, right. So, I mean that's probably part of why
Speaker 1: they eventually closed out their investigation. Be as you said,
Speaker 1: there were there were still reservations, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: This was not an Anthony Bordain no reservation situation. Multiple people,
Speaker 1: I know, they're not all going to work, We're live.
Speaker 1: Multiple people who were familiar with this case and with
Speaker 1: this figure in the US and across upon the UK
Speaker 1: were like, Okay, sure, maybe not that one, but this
Speaker 1: guy is up to something. And it turned out maybe
Speaker 1: they knew he was up to something because they were
Speaker 1: also hiring him to do other stuff. It's it's weird
Speaker 1: because he's not just the spy for one country, right.
Speaker 3: This is true. There were rumors swirling around that he
Speaker 3: was a spy for several different countries at the same time.
Speaker 3: The USSR, Israel and the UK. He was accused of
Speaker 3: having ties to the Mesade abduction of Mordecai the New
Speaker 3: New who was a person who kind of lets slip
Speaker 3: some secrets about Israel's secret nuclear program, and he is
Speaker 3: has been kind of isolated to the country, is being
Speaker 3: held there, unable to leave to this very day. He
Speaker 3: also alleged ties to the Promise affair p r O.
Speaker 3: M I s WHOA. Yeah, Yeah, that's largely because the
Speaker 3: FBI withdrew his file from public view. And Matt, you
Speaker 3: want to tell us little bit more about the promise affair.
Speaker 2: Well, I just can't believe. I can't believe that he's
Speaker 2: got both of those of a new New and Promise
Speaker 2: software in his background, potentially.
Speaker 1: Because the shadow of Castlero.
Speaker 2: Right man, dude, Yeah, it's feeling like an uber conspiracy
Speaker 2: here with Maxwell.
Speaker 1: WHOA.
Speaker 2: Okay, the Promise Promise debacle was something we've done in
Speaker 2: a video on I believe we've talked about it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we talked about it on an episode fairly recently. No way,
Speaker 2: do we just do the Casteleiro story and not fully
Speaker 2: go into promise Yes, oh lord, you guys are in
Speaker 2: for a treat when we do that episode. It's a
Speaker 2: maybe you could characterize it as a software battle between
Speaker 2: Uncle Sam a couple other countries and this thing called inslaw,
Speaker 2: but that's how I say it in slaw, but inslaw.
Speaker 2: And it's essentially this weird thing where this company alleges
Speaker 2: that the government stole their software, or at least the
Speaker 2: underlying operation of their software, and then used it to
Speaker 2: conduct intelligence. And it's really creepy stuff. And this guy,
Speaker 2: this journalist, Danny Casilero, may have lost his life due
Speaker 2: to finding out about it. And this thing called the
Speaker 2: octopus that he called the octopus.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the rabbit hole potential here is profound. So
Speaker 1: there's this thing that started happening where people were digging
Speaker 1: into questions about Maxwell's involvement in this. And as they
Speaker 1: were digging into it, they noticed that the FBI started
Speaker 1: classifying parts of their parts of their reporting on him.
Speaker 1: But we know what those formerly unclassified materials said. They
Speaker 1: said that Maxwell accessed an NSA database with info on
Speaker 1: how to tap government databases around the world, and he
Speaker 1: got in trouble for that, or he got a lot
Speaker 1: of heat for that, which is weird because it's exactly
Speaker 1: what US and Israeli intelligence are accused of modifying the
Speaker 1: promise software to do they're also accused of stealing it
Speaker 1: from inslaw. So this led some conspiracy theorists to claim
Speaker 1: that instead of slipping off his boat while peeing, Massad
Speaker 1: had itself killed Maxwell because Israel had refused to bail
Speaker 1: out his companies, and he threatened to retaliate by saying, look,
Speaker 1: I know where the skeletons are, and I will shine
Speaker 1: a light on and that.
Speaker 3: And that tracks, I would say, given his willingness to
Speaker 3: steal from pension funds. I mean, he seemed like he
Speaker 3: was definitely desperate and was going to go to whatever
Speaker 3: means necessary to you know, stay solvent. Uh, probably not
Speaker 3: particularly smart, you know, gamble to go up against Masad
Speaker 3: knowing what we know about them and how you know
Speaker 3: hardcore they are. But this tracks to me. I don't
Speaker 3: know how you guys feel.
Speaker 2: Well, it's an interesting thing. Like if you game it
Speaker 2: out and you just imagine him on his yacht feeling like,
Speaker 2: you know, he's pretty isolated out there in the water,
Speaker 2: both in a good and bad way, and then I
Speaker 2: don't know, God, this is amazing. Thank you Ben for
Speaker 2: making that connection. I don't know how I missed that
Speaker 2: connection with Robert Maxwell.
Speaker 1: WHOA, we don't. I mean, we still don't. That's it, Hey, whoa,
Speaker 1: we didn't prove anything.
Speaker 2: Yet, No, I know, I know, but just but again,
Speaker 2: like in this world of conspiracy, they're all these webs, right,
Speaker 2: and I just didn't realize that there was a connection
Speaker 2: there whatsoever.
Speaker 1: It's nuts, right, It's nuts. So let's pause for a moment,
Speaker 1: and when we return, if we returned, we are going
Speaker 1: to start tracing this breadcrumb trail back and we'll get
Speaker 1: to Gallane at the end. We're back, all right. So,
Speaker 1: as we said, let's talk about the relationship between Robert
Speaker 1: Maxwell Jeffrey Epstein. There are multiple sources claiming Maxwell somehow
Speaker 1: gave Epstein his start in business and finance, whether that's
Speaker 1: through connecting him with people who could help him, or
Speaker 1: whether that's through giving him money and saying, okay, off
Speaker 1: to the stock market with you, my boy, or whatever.
Speaker 1: And so given the long standing, to a degree credible
Speaker 1: questions about the two men's possible involvement with intelligence activities,
Speaker 1: it's tempting and it's easy to trace this sort of
Speaker 1: invisible line, you know, like you just did Matt connecting
Speaker 1: these guys? What was the purpose of their interaction? This
Speaker 1: brings us to what I can only call the big
Speaker 1: what if because we have to go through so many
Speaker 1: what ifs to get here. But okay, first, what if
Speaker 1: Epstein was murdered? What if Maxwell was also murdered? If
Speaker 1: those two things were true, could the same organization have
Speaker 1: been responsible for both homicides?
Speaker 2: Three?
Speaker 1: Big what's there? And then we so we looked into
Speaker 1: the work of some journalists who have published books on
Speaker 1: this very question.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a two thousand and three book. It's called
Speaker 2: From Bevon to Blair Fifty Years Reporting from the Political
Speaker 2: front Line. It's a former Mirror journalist, Jeffrey Goodman who's
Speaker 2: writing it, and he concludes that Maxwell was murdered quite
Speaker 2: possibly by agents of the same intent telligence organizations that
Speaker 2: had assisted Maxwell in the past. And we've got a
Speaker 2: couple excerpts here from the book that we'd like to
Speaker 2: read for you. First, one is quote the possibility that
Speaker 2: Maxwell could have ended up in the Old Bailey, that's
Speaker 2: a jail Essentilly in prison on charges of criminal fraud
Speaker 2: raised critical questions for a number of countries involved in
Speaker 2: the Maxwell triangle of international dealings. So he's already there
Speaker 2: laying out the connections essentially in the danger, and he
Speaker 2: goes on to say, Bob Maxwell, Robert Maxwell in the
Speaker 2: dock of the Old Bailey was not a prospect. Any
Speaker 2: of these groups, which included the United States, Britain, Soviet Russia, Israel,
Speaker 2: and France, would have appreciated the intelligence services in all
Speaker 2: of these countries were aware of the dangers. My own
Speaker 2: theory is that any of them, or even a combination
Speaker 2: of several, could have been responsible for Maxwell's death. Now,
Speaker 2: really quickly, think about what that means. If someone with
Speaker 2: intelligence from all of these different countries, who has knowledge
Speaker 2: of the inner workings of intelligence agencies and bad things
Speaker 2: that they've probably done from all these different countries, is
Speaker 2: in jail, he could turn on any one of them
Speaker 2: or all of them, or you know, one could be
Speaker 2: the winner essentially and everybody else gets screwed. And that
Speaker 2: completely checks out from a factual standpoint if in fact
Speaker 2: he was functioning as a spy or in some kind
Speaker 2: of intelligence aspect for these groups.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And it's not as crazy as it might sound,
Speaker 1: because think about this, if you are if you are
Speaker 1: an agency or an organization like any of the ones named,
Speaker 1: then what you are doing is maybe less a matter
Speaker 1: of what would be considered ethical and more a matter
Speaker 1: of how you control the distribution of order and chaos.
Speaker 1: So there's a calcul if there's any there's homicide involved,
Speaker 1: then there has to be a calculation where someone says, okay,
Speaker 1: how do we handle the financial fallout and what this
Speaker 1: does to the markets. And if the calculation comes back
Speaker 1: and it's like we can handle it, we can actually
Speaker 1: turn it to our advantage, then why would you help
Speaker 1: this person just because it's the right thing to do?
Speaker 1: Forget that. No, there's a very nietzchean I think reasoning
Speaker 1: and intelligence agencies.
Speaker 3: A little tiny added detail. The Old Bailey is more
Speaker 3: than just a jail. It's actually the central Criminal Court
Speaker 3: of England and Wales. And you might remember it's the
Speaker 3: building that is targeted as a terrorist attack in v
Speaker 3: for Vendetta. It represents kind of like you know, the
Speaker 3: law in London in the UK, and so he would
Speaker 3: have been potentially in like a holding cell there with
Speaker 3: all of the people sniffing around asking all the wrong
Speaker 3: questions that these governments would not want to have had
Speaker 3: him under interrogation answering, right.
Speaker 1: A lot of publicity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you imagine someone in that position would have
Speaker 2: to make some kind of a deal for his own safety. Sure, yeah,
Speaker 2: almost immediately, and he would have to be on the
Speaker 2: table like beforehand. You'd have to you'd want to get
Speaker 2: a judge to give you some kind of immunity, let's say,
Speaker 2: for crimes that took place in the nineties and early
Speaker 2: two thousands in Florida.
Speaker 1: Right. Right. There's another book that was published a year before.
Speaker 1: It goes even further with his accusation. It's called Robert
Speaker 1: Maxwell Israel's Superspies by these authors, Matt Dillon and Gordon Thomas,
Speaker 1: and it specifically claims that Massad got rid of Maxwell
Speaker 1: after he was driven by financial desperation to call them
Speaker 1: and threaten to blow the whistle on past activities. That
Speaker 1: because he had assisted these places numerous times. He said,
Speaker 1: I'm going to blow the whistle on this if you
Speaker 1: don't give me the cash I need to keep my
Speaker 1: business afloat. His business is, by the way, I don't
Speaker 1: think we said that he got all told they were
Speaker 1: about three billion pounds underwater before, you know, before.
Speaker 2: He was, Oh, that's that's intense, three billion pounds down. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then you ask, you know, Israel essentially to pay
Speaker 2: for it.
Speaker 1: In there in their claims, you know, and just numerically
Speaker 1: it makes sense because if you need three billion pounds
Speaker 1: or three billion dollars, once you get to the B
Speaker 1: level of this stuff, you need state assistance. Maybe maybe
Speaker 1: there are banks that could help you, but they would
Speaker 1: want the state involved, maybe the maybe the Catholic Church,
Speaker 1: but they would also probably want the banks involved.
Speaker 3: So does that mean he was a pretty terrible business
Speaker 3: person to let his businesses get that far in debt.
Speaker 3: That's unheard of. That's that's insane.
Speaker 2: They're they're huge empires. It's we're talking about the press, right,
Speaker 2: We're talking about newspapers, right. I mean, these things have
Speaker 2: been making so much money, you know, for decades, and
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden the bottom kind of falls out.
Speaker 3: That's true. So I mean in the same boat as
Speaker 3: a lot of a lot of publishers, I'm sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then we want to note this book, Israel's Superspies,
Speaker 1: based on interviews with former intelligence agents from three different
Speaker 1: countries Israel, US, UK, and according to the book, he
Speaker 1: was actually out there by the Canary Islands, not for funsies,
Speaker 1: but because he was expecting to receive a payment from
Speaker 1: Massad and his yacht was anchored so he could have
Speaker 1: a rendezvous with these agents and they met him. Did Yeah,
Speaker 1: in this theory, they met him, but they didn't give
Speaker 1: him what they he thought they were going to give him.
Speaker 1: To be to put a fine point on it, the
Speaker 1: story is that he got drugged and tossed overboard. But
Speaker 1: we bring it all back together, so we've got a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff here. If indeed these men were murdered,
Speaker 1: and if indeed they were murdered by the same organization,
Speaker 1: it always seems to point to some intelligence organization, or
Speaker 1: if they were murdered by like a web of interlocking
Speaker 1: organizations that you sometimes conflict but all got on board
Speaker 1: about stopping this guy from squealing, then is it possible
Speaker 1: that Gallai Maxwell, who was so close to both of
Speaker 1: these individuals, was also somehow involved in or associated with
Speaker 1: the various murky missions these men are alleged to have undertaken.
Speaker 1: I don't know, And if that's true, what does it
Speaker 1: mean for the future of Galeis Maxwell? More importantly, I
Speaker 1: would argue, what does it mean for the victims of
Speaker 1: the Epstein ring who continue to fight for justice as
Speaker 1: we record this episode today. I don't know, and I
Speaker 1: know it's a hell of a logical leap to say
Speaker 1: that there might be that some of this might Like
Speaker 1: the Robert Maxwell stuff I think we can say is
Speaker 1: very credible, The Jeffrey Epstein stuff, I think we can
Speaker 1: say indications are very troubling. The Gallaine Maxwell stuff, though
Speaker 1: it's still it exists concurrently with these other things, but
Speaker 1: it's not proof yet. I don't know what it is, dude.
Speaker 2: For me, the alarms are all going off, and again
Speaker 2: it is just opinion at this point, but it feels
Speaker 2: as though the activities that Glaine and Epstein were involved in,
Speaker 2: specifically the filming and recording of sexual activities that were
Speaker 2: going on in all these locations across the world with
Speaker 2: powerful people, with Gallaine's connections to her father and possible
Speaker 2: spy activities, it just it's at least if you were
Speaker 2: writing it as a fiction piece, it would be perfect.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
Speaker 3: Uh? Huh No? I mean, look, obviously part of the
Speaker 3: show sometimes is like are interesting and informed speculation, and
Speaker 3: that certainly is part of what we're doing here, But god,
Speaker 3: if it doesn't all kind of add up in a big,
Speaker 3: big way.
Speaker 1: I mean, people do I feel like maybe I should
Speaker 1: have said this in the Rebecca Quorum episode. I don't
Speaker 1: remember if we did. It is true that people do
Speaker 1: slip and fall yes off of votes. That does happen
Speaker 1: in the Quoreum case. Obviously it's hard to slip and
Speaker 1: fall somehow getting around a six foot enclosure. But in
Speaker 1: this case, Yeah, there are a lot of questions. I
Speaker 1: am not surprised that these questions remain, because a lot
Speaker 1: of them do need to be answered, and it gets
Speaker 1: pretty deep into the Cold War. It gets pretty deep
Speaker 1: into the idea of compromot they would call it, and
Speaker 1: the idea of the nature of leverage and power. But
Speaker 1: really this point, we don't know how that bail package
Speaker 1: will go for the Galain Maxwell team. While her team's
Speaker 1: reportedly doing everything they can to assure the court she's
Speaker 1: not a flight risk, and while the DOJ has even
Speaker 1: been keeping her on a strict suicide watch, like every
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes someone comes in to make sure she's alive,
Speaker 1: it's still no surprise that people around the world think
Speaker 1: her life is in serious danger or could be, you know.
Speaker 1: But if that's the case, then what has protected her
Speaker 1: so far? If someone is behind all of this, then
Speaker 1: who were they and what happens next?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll have to find out as we get closer
Speaker 2: to her trial, because it feels like that won't be
Speaker 2: a I don't know if any of this is true,
Speaker 2: it feels like that wouldn't be allowed to continue.
Speaker 3: No, I agree, I mean, I think something likely is
Speaker 3: going to happen that's going to prevent that from taking place.
Speaker 1: I think so, do you. One of my questions too,
Speaker 1: is Okay, obviously, I think there's a lot of sand
Speaker 1: to the Maxwells, to the Robert Maxwell stuff, and I'm
Speaker 1: still I'm still very much on the fence about the
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein death. But one question that I wanted to
Speaker 1: bring to you guys, and I think it's something that
Speaker 1: surprised all of us when we were first looking into
Speaker 1: the Epstein case, is why isn't there a dead hand
Speaker 1: system that got deployed here, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: in either the Maxwell case or the Epstein case. And
Speaker 1: does Gallaine Maxwell have some kind of insurance policy?
Speaker 3: Is that?
Speaker 2: I don't know, Maybe she was the dead hand, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, like maybe she controlled it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's all. It's all speculation, right, We actually want to
Speaker 2: hear from you. I'd love to hear your speculation, but
Speaker 2: I've also I think we would love to hear if
Speaker 2: you knowe something, if you wouldn't mind communicating with us,
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