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Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about Ukraine. This is very consequential.

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Speaker 3: President Zelenski now giving an interview with Sky News the

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Speaker 3: first time that he has said that he would accept

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Speaker 3: some loss of Russian territory if he says he also

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Speaker 3: gets NATO membership.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a listen.

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Speaker 4: No one has offered us to be in NATAL with

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Speaker 4: just one pot or another part of Ukraine.

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Speaker 5: That's for once. Fuck.

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Speaker 4: The fact is that it is a solution to stop

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Speaker 4: the hot stage of the war because we can just

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Speaker 4: give the native membership to the part of Ukraine that

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Speaker 4: is under our control. Fact, yes, it could be possible, but.

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Speaker 1: No one offered trevorability.

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Speaker 4: But the invitation must be given to Ukraine within its

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Speaker 4: internationally recognized border. You can't give invitation to just one

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Speaker 4: part of a country. Why, because thus you would recognize

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Speaker 4: that Ukraine is only that territory of Ukraine and the

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Speaker 4: other one.

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Speaker 6: Is Russia juridic.

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Speaker 4: So legally, by law, we have no right to recognize

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Speaker 4: the occupied territory as territory of Russia. And here we

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Speaker 4: must not make any mistake to study. But if we

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Speaker 4: want to stop the hot stage of the war, we

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Speaker 4: should take under natal umbrella the territory of Ukraine that

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Speaker 4: we have under.

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Speaker 1: Our control, Adali.

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Speaker 4: That's what we need to do fast, and then Ukraine

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Speaker 4: can get back the other part of its territory.

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Speaker 1: Got it okay?

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Speaker 3: So first of all, I was told that that's Russian

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Speaker 3: propaganda to accept or even be told that you're allowed

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Speaker 3: to have a some sort of diplomatic solution that would

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Speaker 3: not require Zelenski to give up some territory. But the

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Speaker 3: other part of this that I'm not going to let slide,

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Speaker 3: because this is very obviously his bid for what the

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Speaker 3: new piece deal will look like. Is that is a

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Speaker 3: perfect articulation of why they should never get membership into NATO, because,

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Speaker 3: as he said, it would be ridiculous to recognize quote

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Speaker 3: unquote NATO nuclear umbrella over the currently recognized areas of

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Speaker 3: control of the Russian of the Ukrainian country and then

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Speaker 3: say that it doesn't apply to Crimea or the other

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Speaker 3: internationally recognized border. Letting a country that is literally in

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Speaker 3: the midst of a war in to NATO is insane

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Speaker 3: because it allows the revocation of the invocation of Article

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Speaker 3: five and the ability and the necessity of the United

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Speaker 3: States and NATO allies to come to their military defense right. Also,

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Speaker 3: putin invaded Ukraine over NATO, So giving them NATO membership

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Speaker 3: would be the exact impetus to putin to say no,

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Speaker 3: you should not take a deal and you should keep

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Speaker 3: fighting the war. So it doesn't make any sense on

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Speaker 3: either side. If we need to give Ukraine some fake

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Speaker 3: security guarantee that doesn't actually require us to go to war, fine,

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Speaker 3: I will, I'll allow it even though.

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Speaker 1: I don't want it.

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Speaker 3: But NATO membership absolutely not. So like anyways, this is

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Speaker 3: the opening ground from Zelenski. This is how it always looks.

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Speaker 3: You know, you make a maximalist demand and all of that.

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Speaker 3: I'm very curious for how we'll all play out. To

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Speaker 3: be honest, things not looking too fantastic. In terms of

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Speaker 3: who Donald Trump appointed. He's appointed General Keith Kellogg as

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Speaker 3: the quote unquote Special Envoy for Ukraine and Russia, who

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Speaker 3: has previously appeared multiple times on Fox News as very

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Speaker 3: pro Ukraine, even including like supplying them with whatever weapons

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Speaker 3: they want. We have a haste here, pulled by Michael

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Speaker 3: Tracy from one of his Fox News interviews. Let's take

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Speaker 3: a listen.

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Speaker 7: Bottom line, the Ukrainians want to fight. They don't want

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Speaker 7: US troops, they don't want NATO troops. All they wanted equipment,

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Speaker 7: and they're going to fight this to the end. It's

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Speaker 7: very clear to them that this is in a very

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Speaker 7: aggressive Russia move. It's targeted on civilians, it's targeted on infrastructure.

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Speaker 7: You know, we went out pretty far to the to

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Speaker 7: the northeast and we saw some absolute incredible destruction out

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Speaker 7: there by the Russians, and it was targeted on infrastructure,

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Speaker 7: was targeted on hospitals, it was targeted on schools. It's

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Speaker 7: in fact, the mayor of Kiev told us later that

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Speaker 7: this is genocide, and I think they when we look

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Speaker 7: at what's going to happen over there, I believe it's

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Speaker 7: very important we get them the equipment to fight. They

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Speaker 7: have no intention in to negotiate. They want to eject

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Speaker 7: Russian forces from Ukraine. I don't care if it's a dambas,

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Speaker 7: I don't care if it's crimea and they're committed to it.

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Speaker 7: And I talked to a lot of government officials, military officials,

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Speaker 7: civilians that are out there. It's a very committed nation.

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Speaker 7: If anybody doubts their their loyalty to Ukraine, their badly mistaken.

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Speaker 7: And again, as I said, I think it's a fight

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Speaker 7: to the finish.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I might as well work for Joe Biden,

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Speaker 1: you know, like, what what are you on here?

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Speaker 6: To the right of Joe.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he's more hawkish than Joe Biden. He would

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Speaker 2: be the type. We haven't done enough, we haven't shipped

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Speaker 2: more quickly enough, we haven't given them what they needed

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Speaker 2: soon enough, you know. And to be honest with you,

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Speaker 2: that actually is a more logical position than the Biden

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Speaker 2: Let's just like dribble it down over time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess the only defense that I've been given

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Speaker 3: on Keith Kellogg is he's a good soldier and he

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Speaker 3: takes orders from Trump.

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Speaker 1: I mean, okay, fine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but then you also have to reckon with Marco Rubio.

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Speaker 1: No yo, Mike Walt. That's what they say about all

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Speaker 1: these guys. Don't worry there.

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Speaker 2: You got a bunch of neo cons in there who

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Speaker 2: are all, like you know, very hawkish when it comes

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Speaker 2: to Ukraine and other conflicts around the globe.

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Speaker 3: By the way, and that's the problem is that in

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Speaker 3: this case appointing personnel who again, even if Donald Trump says,

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Speaker 3: go get a piece deal with Russia, if you have

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Speaker 3: been on television and you previously advocated for full scale

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Speaker 3: war with Russia, why would the Russians listen to you.

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Speaker 1: They're going to be like, hey, you advocated for war

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Speaker 1: with us.

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Speaker 3: I'm not listening to you. Absolutely not with Trump, I mean,

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Speaker 3: or Jade Vance, any of these figures, they have way

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Speaker 3: more credibility to be able to go to Moscow and

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Speaker 3: to actually talk to these guys and get something done.

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Speaker 3: Nobody's going to like it. But that's what an actual

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Speaker 3: successful end to the war would look like.

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Speaker 2: Did you see the comments from Seb Gorka, who also

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Speaker 2: now has a.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, we're sorry, I promise as well national

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Speaker 3: security advisor.

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Speaker 2: He went on probably Fox News, I can't remember and

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Speaker 2: said Trump's plan to end the war is to threaten

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Speaker 2: Russia with We're going to give Ukraine everything they want.

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Speaker 2: He said. The words he said is what Biden gave

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Speaker 2: them is going to look like peanuts compared to what

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Speaker 2: Trump is going to promise them, and that's what's going

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Speaker 2: to force the Russians to the negotiating table. And I mean,

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Speaker 2: he's claiming to speak for Trump, who knows if he's

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Speaker 2: really going to speak for Trump? Who knows? If you

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Speaker 2: know Trump doesn't change his mind, that's also a possibility

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Speaker 2: if you fluitered that at one point, but he's actually

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Speaker 2: going to do something different. But that kind of made

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Speaker 2: sense to me and kind of square. There's the circle

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Speaker 2: of how you end up with all of these extremely

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Speaker 2: pro Ukraine, very hawkish figures throughout his government. We're not

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Speaker 2: talking about just one or two. We're talking about almost

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Speaker 2: every key position of power at this point, and Trump

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Speaker 2: claiming that he's going to bring this war to claiming

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Speaker 2: that he's going to bring it to this with conclusion.

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Speaker 2: So he's got to kind of like escalate to de

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Speaker 2: escalate mentality.

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Speaker 3: Potentially, good luck with escalation, right, because who's going to

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Speaker 3: pull the trigger? Put this up on the screen from

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Speaker 3: the Financial Times. Their own people are deserting the military

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Speaker 3: in mass. They can't even find anybody to recruit. Go

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Speaker 3: read their own papers they're talking about. Look at the

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Speaker 3: sixty thousand cases of troops abandoning positions in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 3: double the number of the past two years. Their latest

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Speaker 3: Pew Research polling shows that half the population is willing

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Speaker 3: to enter peace negotiation. So at this point, you can

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Speaker 3: give them all the long range missiles that you want.

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Speaker 3: They can't even hold the territory. I mean, go to

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Speaker 3: the next part please. It is that I agree. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you've basically wiped out and it's literally like World War

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Speaker 3: One for the British, the Germans and others. You took

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Speaker 3: the greatest generation, some of the most patriotic folks who

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Speaker 3: believed in the project and all that, and you slaughtered

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Speaker 3: them en mass and now you have to deal with

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Speaker 3: the consequences. Ukraine has now lost forty percent of the

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Speaker 3: land that it sees in the quote unquote Cursk region

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Speaker 3: of Russia. A literal invasion of Russia, by the way

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Speaker 3: of which we're giving them weapons to defend themselves, makes

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Speaker 3: a lot of sense in a war about territorial integrity.

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Speaker 1: The entire thing just is ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: And in terms of how this all works out, And

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Speaker 3: you know Zelenski himself, I don't underestimate him. I think

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Speaker 3: Zelenski knows exactly how to play Donald Trump. Zelenski, even

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Speaker 3: though he way over played his hand and he attacked JD.

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Speaker 3: You know, whenever he was here and on his little

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Speaker 3: campaign stop for Kamala Harris, he knows at this point

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Speaker 3: about how to frame negotiation played at Trump's ego. He

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Speaker 3: will be appearing, it appears on the Lex Friedman podcast.

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Speaker 3: Let's put that up there on the screen.

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Speaker 2: That'll be very interesting. Actually, And I thought I thought

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Speaker 2: it was a mistake for Rogan to say no to him,

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Speaker 2: because that would have been an interesting.

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Speaker 3: I would have taken into I agree, I think it

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Speaker 3: would have been a good idea, especially I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: at this point, you know so many of these leaders

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Speaker 3: and whatever going on on Rogan, so you might as

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Speaker 3: well at least hear what he has to say. And

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Speaker 3: the thing is with Zelenski, as we just learned from

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Speaker 3: the Sky News interview, this guy, when you push him

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Speaker 3: a little bit, you sometimes get interesting answers. We saw

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Speaker 3: this even in the past with NBC News and others,

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Speaker 3: and he would give away little tidbits about how he

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Speaker 3: views negotiation and truth or and what it actually would mean,

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Speaker 3: you know, or even even when he if he's still

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Speaker 3: sticking to the maximum's position, that's equally interesting too. I'd

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Speaker 3: also like to hear his version of the two thousand

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Speaker 3: and twenty two invasion, because remember he was the one saying,

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Speaker 3: don't freak out, I'm not worried about an invasion. Also,

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Speaker 3: you know, in terms of NATO, like what he actually

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Speaker 3: still thinks, what his you know, historical version of the

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Speaker 3: war and all that would look like. So I'm glad

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Speaker 3: lex is going to do it, and congrats to him

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Speaker 3: first hearing the interview. What I'm interested in too, though,

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Speaker 3: is how the Trump administration, its very first day in office,

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Speaker 3: approaches the war. Because you have two options. You can

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Speaker 3: continue doling out the billions that currently have been authorized

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Speaker 3: by Congress at the discretion of the president. If they

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Speaker 3: continue to do that, that's a sign. If they pull

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Speaker 3: it away, that's also a good sign. I want to

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Speaker 3: see whether Keith Kellogg is even received by Putin or

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Speaker 3: even received by the Russian government, whether Lavrov himself will

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Speaker 3: be allowed back into the United States. Maybe he'll have

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Speaker 3: another Oval Office meeting with Donald Trump. Frankly, I think

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Speaker 3: it would be a good idea. You know, I actually

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Speaker 3: have some exchange, but I want to see the level

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Speaker 3: of emphasis. That will be interesting about what level these

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Speaker 3: negotiations take place, whether it's a Lenska himself is immediately

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Speaker 3: here in Washington, which I'm sure it will be, to

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Speaker 3: try and get a meeting with Donald Trump, how he's received,

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Speaker 3: and what the communicates and all of that start to

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Speaker 3: look like. But escalation through de escalation is a nonsense policy.

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Speaker 3: It has never worked under Joe Biden. It would make

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Speaker 3: America way less safe. And that is the problem with

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Speaker 3: Donald Trum I'm appointing a lot of these folks is

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Speaker 3: there is immense danger. And frankly, if you were putin

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Speaker 3: you're just gonna be like, Okay, if that's how you're

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Speaker 3: gonna play it, then I'm going to play it too.

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Speaker 3: I've got all these North Koreans at my back. I

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Speaker 3: got a lot of AMMO, some nice suicide drums from Iran.

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Speaker 1: Let's go. We can just keep going.

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Speaker 2: And Trump is very easy to manipulate, sho. It really

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Speaker 2: matters who he puts around himself and who has a zar. Ultimately,

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Speaker 2: you know, one of the last thing that I'll say

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Speaker 2: on this is I do think and one of the

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Speaker 2: parts of conventional wisdom that was proven wrong in this

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Speaker 2: election was that voters don't care about foreign policy and

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Speaker 2: it's not going to be consequent.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: You have very few people like to play devil's advocate.

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Speaker 2: You have very few people who said that foreign policy

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Speaker 2: was the number one reason why they were voting. But

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Speaker 2: when Griffin went and interviewed those AFC Trump voters in

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Speaker 2: other interviews I've seen with people who flipped to Trump.

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Speaker 2: One of the main things that we hear over and

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Speaker 2: over again is about Gaza and is about Ukraine and

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Speaker 2: the sense that the Biden administration, the Biden Harris administration

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Speaker 2: was more concerned about this foreign conflicts and endlessly shipping

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Speaker 2: money and weapons to these other, you know, countries, and

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Speaker 2: you know, in Israel's case, country that is perpetuators committing

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Speaker 2: a genocide, that they seemed more concerned about that and

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Speaker 2: more committed to that than they were too delivering for

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Speaker 2: people here at home. I think that the Trump's, you know,

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Speaker 2: ability to convince people falsely, but ability to convince people

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Speaker 2: that he would be anti war, that he would be

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Speaker 2: bring these conflicts to a close. I think that was

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Speaker 2: a very potent part of his appeal. I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to say it is the only part of his appeal,

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Speaker 2: but I think it was undersold part of his appeal

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Speaker 2: and his ability to win you know, convincing victory, including

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Speaker 2: winning the popular vote, which is something that Republicans have

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Speaker 2: long struggled to do in which he's never been able

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Speaker 2: to accomplish. So he does have a mandate from the

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Speaker 2: voters to try to bring this conflict to a close.

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Speaker 2: And I think they will hold him accountable if he

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Speaker 2: doesn't do what he promised to do.

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Speaker 3: I certainly hope so, I mean, he won't get re elected.

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Speaker 3: But whoever takes his mantle, if you want to add,

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Speaker 3: if you're listening.

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Speaker 1: If you if you actually want to run.

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Speaker 3: You know, to be able to run on a successful

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Speaker 3: foreign policy of bringing this horrible war to a close

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Speaker 3: is something that I think American people actually want to

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Speaker 3: see and especially a lot of these disaffected working class

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Speaker 3: voters disgusted by watching millions and billions of their taxpayer

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Speaker 3: dollars being sent abroad and all this care and concern.

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Speaker 3: You know, we literally have civil society programs paying yarn salary.

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Speaker 3: Shops in Kief must be nice. I know a lot

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Speaker 3: of people who live in Asheville, North Carolina, who got

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Speaker 3: their shops blown apart. Nobody's paying their salary. And that's

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Speaker 3: the point where, you know, everyone says that that's a

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Speaker 3: ridiculous comparison, but at a deep level, Americans do know

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Speaker 3: it's true. They know it's true that when your prices

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Speaker 3: went up in the grocery store, you know, it just

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Speaker 3: hit my big grocery hall after a long time, you know,

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Speaker 3: when you got to stock up your fridge and you're like,

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Speaker 3: how is this even possible? When you look at the

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Speaker 3: at the bill for just basic stuff, and then you know,

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Speaker 3: I went back and you know, reordering stuff from Amazon.

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Speaker 3: I encourage people to go look at what you were

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Speaker 3: paying for paper towels or other basics five years ago.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy.

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Speaker 3: You're selling about one hundred two hundred percent increase in

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Speaker 3: price wasn't that long?

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Speaker 1: You know that we all remember. And then meanwhile, we've

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Speaker 1: got all the money in the world for foreign conflicts.

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Speaker 3: So that is something where I think it hits home

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Speaker 3: to every American and I think you're right. I think

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Speaker 3: the voters would actually punish him. The question is whether

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Speaker 3: you know we can have somebody on the Democratic side

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Speaker 3: who could successfully prosecute an argument about that, which I

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Speaker 3: would hope to see as well, because I think it's

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Speaker 3: important to keep these things in check.

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Speaker 2: I think Gaza and Ukraine really undercut democratic arguments when

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Speaker 2: it came certainly to being any sort of moral force. Yes,

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Speaker 2: and also you know, when it came to saying this

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Speaker 2: guy is like chaotic and it's too much chaos when

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Speaker 2: he's in office and they're looking at these foreign wars.

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Speaker 2: And also I think that fueled this sense that you know,

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Speaker 2: you don't really care about me, You're not going to

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Speaker 2: really deliver for me. So I think in a certain way,

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Speaker 2: even though again very few people would say foreign policy

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Speaker 2: was their number one issue, I think it was very

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Speaker 2: central to the case that Donald Trump successfully prosecuted against

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Speaker 2: Kamala Harris and the Democrats, and it would behove him

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Speaker 2: to keep that in mind as he moves forward with

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Speaker 2: his illustration. Speaking of foreign conflicts and wars, this was

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Speaker 2: quite a stunning and unexpected development. We can put some

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Speaker 2: of these images up on the screen. The Syrian rebels

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Speaker 2: have now retaken Syria's largest city of Aleppo. This is

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Speaker 2: as of Saturday, that's according to you know, groups that

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Speaker 2: are on the ground. You can see some of these images.

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Speaker 2: Apparently these fighters faced pretty small, limited resistance and Aleppo.

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Speaker 2: I think they themselves were surprised at how easily this went.

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Speaker 2: The pro asade. The government forces that were there basically scattered.

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Speaker 2: Apparently even the retreat was quite chaotic, and they've continued

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Speaker 2: to advance since then. So you know this. Obviously, the

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Speaker 2: Serian civil war has been ongoing for quite a number

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Speaker 2: of years at this point, beginning really under the Obama administration,

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Speaker 2: the bombedmanstration famously really backing and going all in with

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Speaker 2: these rebel forces. And just to keep everybody in mind

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Speaker 2: at this point in particular, the main faction here at

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Speaker 2: this point is effectively an al Qaeda.

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Speaker 1: Offshoot, no it is now they have they have.

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Speaker 2: Put out new rhetoric to try to be like, oh,

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Speaker 2: we're different now, like we're more modern, et cetera. But

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Speaker 2: the rebels here are basically Al Qaida. So that's who

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Speaker 2: has been able to effectively retake a lepo. And let's

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Speaker 2: put this tear sheet up on the screen from the

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Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal. That helps to explain the timing of

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Speaker 2: why this is happening. Now when you know the this

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Speaker 2: group of rebels, they've continued to be able to hold

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Speaker 2: a certain amount of territory within Syria, even as the

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Speaker 2: government has retaken a lot of the territory that had

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Speaker 2: previously previously been claimed. But you have you know, Hesbla

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Speaker 2: has really been dealt a serious blow by Israel, and

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Speaker 2: so they were sort of out of on a commission

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Speaker 2: to be involved here. You have to back the Assad government.

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Speaker 2: You have Iran also distracted, you have Russia distracted in Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: So a bunch of the best significant backers of the

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Speaker 2: Assad government are kind of either under my undercut have

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Speaker 2: been devastating blows or they're distracted in various other conflicts,

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Speaker 2: in particular with regards to the Middle East in Ukraine,

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Speaker 2: and so that created the opening here that the rebels

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Speaker 2: were able to see it.

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Speaker 3: It's crazy to watch I mean, you've been covering these

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Speaker 3: conflicts since my very beginning of journalism, and to see,

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Speaker 3: you know, Aleppo back in the conversation is wild, especially

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Speaker 3: for those of us who remember the Gary Johnson What

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Speaker 3: is Aleppo one of the great moments in television history? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: like you just said, though, let's all be very honest.

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Speaker 3: We've got straight up al Qaeda aligned rebels who are

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Speaker 3: the ones who have taken over control of this city.

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Speaker 3: How that will play out interesting to watch, It's honestly

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Speaker 3: kind of terrifying, because really what we have seen. First

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Speaker 3: of all, Also, I can't forget this either. There are

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Speaker 3: that of American soldiers who are in Syria illegally for

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Speaker 3: no reason, who are now in the or basically in

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Speaker 3: the middle of a major conflict zone.

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Speaker 1: Are they going to be attacked?

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Speaker 3: Last time I checked, al Qaida doesn't like us, and

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Speaker 3: so there were actually just air strikes yesterday from the

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Speaker 3: United States and a tens that were deployed apparently against

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Speaker 3: Iranian proxies. But then that gets to a bigger question,

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Speaker 3: who do we even want to win in this war? Previously,

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Speaker 3: these al Qaeda rebels were the ones who the United

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Speaker 3: States backed. It's very clear. It was clear by like

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Speaker 3: twenty fifteen that all of the quote unquote moderates were dead.

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Speaker 3: They had no chance. The Islamists were the only ones

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Speaker 3: who had an effective fighting force except for the Kurds,

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Speaker 3: who we backed and then decided not to back.

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Speaker 1: But a complicated story.

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Speaker 3: The whole point though, is that it's a mess and

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Speaker 3: the idea what has happened here with Russia involved in Ukraine,

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Speaker 3: with Iran basically all eyes on Israel. Hezbola, of course,

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Speaker 3: has now been decimated in this war. They're no longer

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Speaker 3: Assyria as a major, as a major, really important battleground.

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Speaker 1: The assad government has lost a lot of the.

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Speaker 3: People who are its most effective either fighters, funders, you know,

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Speaker 3: people who would pay it a lot of attention. And

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Speaker 3: they've been very weak for many years now, so there

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Speaker 3: can't rely on Russian barrel bombs to bail them out

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Speaker 3: of the city of Aleppo this or maybe they can,

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 8: Well.

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Speaker 2: Another thing that was really significant that was noted in

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Speaker 2: that Wall Street Journal piece is the Wagner paramilitary group RUNT,

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Speaker 2: because you remember, headed by Predosian and he tried to

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Speaker 2: do the coup against Putin and then oh it turns

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Speaker 2: on you know, their pamplain something happened the hoops. So

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Speaker 2: Wagner paramilitary group was really critical in Syria, very important

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Speaker 2: for backing Asad, and they're now you know, defunct, so

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Speaker 2: that may have been the most significant backer for the

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Speaker 2: Asad regime. I think Hesbela was also incredibly important to

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Speaker 2: based on the reporting here as well. So the fact

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Speaker 2: that Hesblo's dealt such a significant blow by Israel, and

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Speaker 2: I think your question of like who do we who

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Speaker 2: would we and want to win is important one because

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Speaker 2: we shouldn't be left out of this equation either, because

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Speaker 2: even though you know, we aren't as engaged in you know,

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Speaker 2: backing the rebels and arming them, at least not that

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Speaker 2: we know as we once were, we've continued our policy

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Speaker 2: of really trying to sort of isolate and sanction Damascus

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Speaker 2: and the Esava regime, which has left them also incredibly

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Speaker 2: weak and helped to create this vulnerability and you know

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Speaker 2: what is now a hot warn additional instability in the

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Speaker 2: Middle East as well. So we have our hands in

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Speaker 2: this conflict.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, our hands are all over this thing. We're literally

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Speaker 3: the reason this country basically burned to the ground.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and no one is saying Asad is a

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Speaker 2: good guy either or like there's no one like no

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Speaker 2: good guys.

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Speaker 1: Oh he's a hero or whatever.

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Speaker 3: You're like, Okay, I have to pick between al Qaeda,

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Speaker 3: and we have to al Qaeda Iran and Asad. It's like,

438
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,440
Speaker 3: all right, well, it's a tough, tough choice in terms

439
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,720
Speaker 3: of like what we want, what we really want out

440
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 3: of Syria is some sort of you know, regional stability.

441
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 3: Do you think al Qaeda can deliver you know, real

442
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 3: regional stability or whatever to the people of Syria. Good luck?

443
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,200
Speaker 3: That'll be an interesting one for a lot of the

444
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,159
Speaker 3: religious minorities who live in Damascus and elsewhere throughout the country.

445
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 3: So the likelihood of this just accelerating even more conflict

446
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,480
Speaker 3: over there is a huge problem. That's literally how Isis

447
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 3: was born, you know, in terms of the vacuum of

448
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 3: the Syrian Civil War, and so now we're back into

449
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 3: this and it's just another great example of the fortieth

450
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,199
Speaker 3: order consequences of American form policies.

451
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you.

452
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,919
Speaker 2: One of the leaks that came out, you know, in

453
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 2: the twenty sixteen era was Jake Sullivan to Hillary Clinton,

454
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,159
Speaker 2: we're on the side of al Qaeda in Syria. So

455
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,880
Speaker 2: you know, don't take it from me, take it from him.

456
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 2: And you know, with regard to Israel, they love to

457
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 2: see this too because it just means that their adversaries

458
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: are further distracted with another, you know, hot conflict that

459
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 2: they now have to deal with. Keep in mind, we

460
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 2: haven't talked about it as much, but Israel's been bombing

461
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 2: in Syria as well. They've been upset because they felt

462
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 2: that Syria was a hub for various weapons transfers to

463
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 2: their enemies, including Hasblas. So they're you know, very they're

464
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 2: also delighted with this chain of events. So, you know,

465
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 2: if SOD is able to regroup or if the rebels

466
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,120
Speaker 2: continue to take ground, regardless, what had been a sort

467
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 2: of tenuous stability in that country has now definitely been broken.

468
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 5: Definitely.

469
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 2: All Right, all right, let's go ahead and get to

470
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 2: Matt Stoller in this whole d banking conversation sparked by

471
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 2: Mark Andresen on the Joe Rogan podcast.

472
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 6: All right, so we've.

473
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 2: Got Matt Stellar standing, by the way in on this

474
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,479
Speaker 2: whole de banking situation. He of course writes the big

475
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 2: sub stack and is an analyst of the American Economic

476
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 2: Liberties Project, right to see you as always there.

477
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: Good to see you, man, See you all right.

478
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 2: So let's take a look at these comments that Indreason

479
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 2: made which sparked this whole conversation.

480
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 9: Here we go Sally, for example, with this thing called

481
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 9: the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau CFPB, which was the it's

482
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 9: sort of Elizabeth Warren's personal agent. See that she gets

483
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 9: to control and it's an independent agency that just gets

484
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 9: to run and do whatever it wants. Right, And if

485
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 9: you read the constitution, like there is no such thing

486
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 9: as an independent agency, and yet.

487
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 6: There it is. What does her agency do.

488
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 9: Whatever she wants?

489
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 6: What does it do?

490
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 5: Though?

491
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 9: We basically did terrorize financial terrorize financial institutions, prevent crypt fintech,

492
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 9: prevent new competition, new startups that want to compete with

493
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 9: a big bankery. Oh yeah, just terrorizing anybody who tries

494
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 9: to do anything new in financial services. And can you

495
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 9: give me an example, you said, you know, de banking.

496
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 9: This is where a lot of the d banking comes from,

497
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,719
Speaker 9: is these agencies. So d banking is when you're you

498
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 9: as either a person or your company are literally kicked

499
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 9: out of the banking system, like they did to Kanye

500
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 9: exactly like they did to Kanye. My partner band's father

501
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 9: has been d banked. Really, we had an employee for

502
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 9: what for having the wrong politics, for saying unacceptable things

503
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 9: under current banking regulations under okay, here's a great here's

504
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 9: a great thing. Under current banking regulations. After all the

505
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 9: reforms of the last twenty years, there's now a category

506
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 9: called a politically exposed person PEP. And if you were

507
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 9: a PEP, you were required by financial regulators to kick

508
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 9: them off of your to kick them out of your bank.

509
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: You're not allowed to if you're politically on the left.

510
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 5: That's fine.

511
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 9: Because they're not politically expressed.

512
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 6: So no one on the left gets d banked.

513
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 9: I have not heard of a single list as of

514
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:15,360
Speaker 9: anybody in the left getting doe.

515
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 4: Can you tell me what the person that you know did,

516
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 4: what they said that got them d bank?

517
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 9: Well, I mean, David Herwitz is a right wing you know,

518
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 9: he's pro Trump. I mean, he's said all kinds of things.

519
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 9: You know, he's been very anti Islamic terrorism, he's been

520
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 9: very worried about him migration, all these things, and they

521
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 9: debanked him for the bank tod So you get kicked out,

522
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 9: You get kicked out of your bank account.

523
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 2: Just so people understand why in recent is so significant.

524
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 2: I mean, this is one of the most influential Silicon

525
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: Valley venture capitalists funders. So what you say is quite

526
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: consequentially has a lot of way with the Trump administration

527
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:44,719
Speaker 2: talked to us about you back here.

528
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 5: Yeah.

529
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, So this is a this is a con right,

530
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 10: and it's important to distinguish between two things.

531
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 5: Right.

532
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 10: One is if you say something or you make a

533
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 10: political statement that people don't like, can you lose access

534
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 10: to your bank account? And that is a real problem

535
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 10: because it does happen, and it happens to people on

536
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 10: the right, and it happens to people on the left.

537
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 10: It's not that common. But you saw it with in Canada.

538
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 10: You saw it with Canadian trucker protests. You've seen it.

539
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 10: You saw it with WikiLeaks, you saw it with a

540
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 10: lot of pro palest Indian advocacy, you know their Venmo accounts.

541
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 10: Twenty twenty one, PayPal said, we're concerned about people who

542
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 10: might be spreading misinformation, right, so we're going to implement

543
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 10: new You do see this fear on the part of

544
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 10: financial institution's financial censorship. It's a real thing.

545
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 5: Okay.

546
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 10: The other side, though, is that you have people that

547
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 10: are engaged in what regulators see as potentially risky activity.

548
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 10: So this would be things like crypto. Right, if you're

549
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,959
Speaker 10: using crypto and you're engaged in sort of things that

550
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 10: look a little bit like money laundering, or if you're

551
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 10: doing things like putting taking ten thousand dollars of cash

552
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 10: and depositing into a bank account every day for a month,

553
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 10: banks are going to be suspicious and they are are

554
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 10: going to file suspicious activity reports.

555
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 2: They're required to.

556
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 10: They are required to, and our banking system works by

557
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 10: saying if a bank is suspicious of you for engaging

558
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 10: in all sorts of activities, mostly money laundering and fraud

559
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 10: or other forms of scams, they are required to take action.

560
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 10: Now those are different things, right, Those are very different things.

561
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 10: And we do know that debanking for political purposes happens,

562
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 10: but we also know that banks are required to actually

563
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 10: implement law enforcement and to be a little bit suspicious.

564
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,479
Speaker 10: It's a little bit like you go to a stop sign, right,

565
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 10: There's no due process at.

566
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 6: A stop sign.

567
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 10: Even if running a stop sign, you know it doesn't

568
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 10: going to cause any problems, you still have to stop

569
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 10: at the stop sign.

570
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 6: So that's the way our banking system works. Now.

571
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 10: By what Mark Andresen is doing is he's conflating these

572
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 10: two things intentionally. And the reason he's doing that is

573
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 10: because he has specific investments in companies, two of them

574
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 10: that I can think of, one called lend Up and

575
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 10: one called sinnapps that have both been put out of

576
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 10: business by the Consumer Financial Protection Agency for stealing from customers,

577
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 10: all right, or for collapsing and costing people their life savings.

578
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 10: These are not crypto companies. One of them is a

579
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 10: paidy lender. The other one is a fintech firm that

580
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 10: connects people from apps to their bank accounts, and it

581
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 10: was just forms of fraud and the CFPP went after

582
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 10: his investments, and he's mad about that now. The CFPB

583
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 10: is a consumer financial protection agency. They don't actually do

584
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 10: the things that they don't go to banks and say

585
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 10: we're really nervous about you having these people banking.

586
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 6: Those are other agencies.

587
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 10: The CFPP is the one that protects consumers, and it's

588
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 10: also one that in the past couple of years has

589
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 10: actually tried to say as part of their regulatory authority,

590
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 10: we don't want debanking based on race, religion, political views, etc.

591
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 5: Etc.

592
00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 10: And they've been stopped by Trump judges from actually trying

593
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 10: to prohibit those forms of dbanking.

594
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 6: So that's what's going on.

595
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,239
Speaker 3: The defense full disclosure, I consider Mark a friend. But

596
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 3: the actual defense of this that I have seen, let's

597
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 3: put the next part up there on the screen. This

598
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 3: is from a pro crypto advocate, Nick Carter, and he

599
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 3: writes here about quote operation choke point two point zero

600
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 3: crypto in his crosshairs. As I understand it, the defense

601
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 3: that Nick and others have put forward on Andresen's comments

602
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 3: is that the FDIC and the US government have put

603
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 3: in place very onerous regulations basically disallowing crypto companies to

604
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 3: be able to do business, allowing an effective monopoly to

605
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 3: the banks. And so what Andresen there is talking about

606
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 3: is about this US government regulated sec FDIC initiative which

607
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 3: allows them, under this quote unquote Operation Choke point two

608
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 3: point zero to basically disincentivize crypto, other fintech or whatever innovation.

609
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: So what's your response to.

610
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 6: Neck, Well, that's not what he said.

611
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean that's you know, if if Mark Andresen

612
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 10: is going to say I don't like what the FDIC

613
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 10: is doing, and I don't like what they're doing to

614
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 10: prohibit bit crypto businesses from operating. He should say that,

615
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 10: but he didn't say that. He said I don't like

616
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 10: the CFPB, right, which isn't doing any of the things

617
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 10: that he suggested.

618
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: And this person doesn't even claim they are right.

619
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: Right, and he didn't say Nick has to be clear.

620
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: Nick has been like, I think he misspoke, and this

621
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 3: is what he was talking about.

622
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: Okay, well, yeah, I'm saying no, fair.

623
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 10: Enough, but I'm only taking his comments. I mean, and

624
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 10: he spent a while on Joe Rogan saying they're terrorizing

625
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 10: financial institutions for political speech, right, And and then you

626
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 10: know they're kind of like, oh, well he didn't he

627
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 10: didn't really mean it, all right, Well, then don't say it, right.

628
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 10: I Mean, the point here is if you want to

629
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 10: have a debate about crypto, and we can have a

630
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 10: discussion about crypto and you know the banking system and that,

631
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 10: that's fair. But the point here isn't to have that discussion.

632
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 10: The point here is to say, if policymakers are going

633
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 10: to regulate crypto in a certain manner, it means that

634
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 10: if you say something that they don't like, that they

635
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 10: can debank you. And that's a con it's not true.

636
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 10: What they should be saying is they should keep those

637
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 10: two things separate and say we want to have a

638
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 10: debate about whether you should be able to do your

639
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 10: crypto thing, which you know, or and we're going to

640
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 10: have a discussion about dbanking because you say political speech.

641
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 10: But I think it was pretty clear in that clip

642
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 10: that Mark Andreeson put out to millions of people. He

643
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 10: was saying you could be dbanked because of what you say.

644
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 6: Right, you can that it's the CFPB the the way, Yeah, exactly,

645
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 6: that's right, it's the CFPP doing it.

646
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 10: And he didn't say, oh, by the way, I have

647
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 10: these investments that ended up hurting a lot of people

648
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 10: and the CFPB, you know, for deception, not like you know,

649
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 10: and and the CFPB came in and said you can't

650
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 10: do that.

651
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 6: Right, He didn't say that either.

652
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 10: So it's like I'm not inclined to give him the

653
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 10: benefit of the doubt. And with someone like Nick Carter,

654
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 10: I mean, fair enough, the guy misspoke, but you can't

655
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 10: just say, oh, well, yes, there are these massive conflicts

656
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 10: of interest and oh he didn't. You know, he didn't

657
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 10: mean what he said, even though he said it to

658
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 10: millions of people. And then I'm going to talk about

659
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 10: the thing I want to talk about. It's like, you can't.

660
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 10: That's not a form of fair policy.

661
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 3: I think that's fair. I think what as I understand it,

662
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 3: there are two things happening. There's this conversation about the

663
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 3: D banking for political purposes, and I do think it's

664
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 3: pretty clear the cfeb Row hitch opra In particularly spoken

665
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 3: out against D banking, so we got to give him

666
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 3: that benefit of the doubt. On the crypto side, I

667
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 3: think what it is a lot of regulatory fear. I mean,

668
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 3: let's be honest too, there's a big right wing kind

669
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 3: of you know, like a marriage I guess now with

670
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 3: the crypto industry, and so that is the lens through

671
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 3: which they're looking at it about quote unquote being d

672
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 3: banked for these purposes. I do, do you think it's

673
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 3: an interesting conversation. For example, I saw David Marcus, who

674
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 3: previously led the Libra project over at Facebook or I

675
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 3: guess Meta now talking about being D banked, and I

676
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 3: was like, well, you know, to be honest, I think

677
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 3: that was a good thing. I don't really want the

678
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 3: global financial system to be run also by meta, So

679
00:31:58,440 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 3: there are there.

680
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 6: Is also I think that still has a bank account.

681
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Medasaw is a make account.

682
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 3: But the point was, actually you and I talked about

683
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 3: Libra a lot at the time, because Libra, for people

684
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 3: who don't remember, is what was it. It was basically

685
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 3: like a platform for global financial transactions that will be

686
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 3: run by Meta on it. And I'm getting a lot

687
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 3: of this, you know, technologically and correct, but it was effectively.

688
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 11: Changing it measure blockchain which they would adjudicate and run

689
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 11: to get around the global financial banking system and effectively

690
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 11: allow them to control payments, which has been very profitable

691
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 11: for Visa and for all these other places.

692
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 3: I would be very concerned about that. So I think

693
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 3: it's a fair conversation around regulation. And I guess I'm

694
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 3: not giving more quote unquote benefit of the doubt or whatever,

695
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 3: but that does seem to be like the high.

696
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: IQ version I guess of what's happened.

697
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 2: It's just hard for me to accept that when that's

698
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 2: not remotely what he said. It's like he didn't even

699
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: talk about crypto, does he. I mean, he's about political

700
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: speech later okay, later on he gets a crypto. But

701
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 2: the other piece about it that irritates me is this

702
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: characterization of this agency, which was inspired by Elizabeth Warren,

703
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: but Obama wouldn't even put her in as the first

704
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: head of the CFPB because he was, I don't know, afraid,

705
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 2: And then it's portrayed as just like her personal governmental.

706
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 10: Arm and they have the authority to do anything, including

707
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 10: terrorized people.

708
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 6: I mean, he's talked about that.

709
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 10: He consistently said they terrorize and it's unconstitutional. On all

710
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 10: of these like ideologically freighted arguments about how we never

711
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 10: had an administrative state, which is not true. I mean,

712
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 10: that's that's just not a real reading of history. I

713
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 10: think there's a broader point here, though, which is that

714
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 10: the Trump administration is coming in on a populist wave

715
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 10: that is different, I think than the traditional Republican Party,

716
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 10: and I you know, we all know people on the

717
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 10: New Right. They have different views about how to regulate

718
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 10: the relationship the government and the state, sorry, the government

719
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 10: and private interests.

720
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 6: And one of the things that's happening.

721
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 10: Is there's this attempt to kind of subvert the New

722
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 10: Right within the Republican Party by conflating legitimate points of

723
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 10: disagreement like crypto policy, with this other thing like should

724
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 10: we have an administrative state that could protect people? And

725
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 10: I can guarantee you that the CFPB can be a

726
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 10: super useful tool for Trump to protect his new working

727
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 10: class voting coalition, But it is also something that I

728
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 10: think a lot of the billionaires that are backing him

729
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 10: really would prefer out of the way so they can

730
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 10: steal from that working class coalition, right, And that's the tension.

731
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 10: And I think the danger here among populists on the

732
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 10: right is that they fall for the cultural arguments that

733
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 10: are I think legitimate, but are conflated and I think

734
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 10: dishonestly with the broader attack on the administrative state. So

735
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 10: that's what I worry about him.

736
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 3: What do you mean when you say how Trump could

737
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 3: use it? Like, could you give an example?

738
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, you know Synapse is a good example, right.

739
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 10: Synapps is a is a company that you know connects

740
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 10: connected new fintech you know apps to a bank account.

741
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 10: And they had a dispute with the bank that they

742
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 10: were working with, which is called Evolve Bank. And there

743
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 10: there there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are caught

744
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 10: in the middle. No one knows what happened to the money,

745
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 10: and now a lot of people are missing their life savings.

746
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 10: I don't know if if those are Trump voters or

747
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 10: if they're Biden voters.

748
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 6: My guess is it's probably both.

749
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 10: And the CFPB came in and is investigating and trying to,

750
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 10: you know, get some of the money out and get

751
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 10: some of the money back. That would be an example,

752
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 10: but there's a ton of other examples, from you know,

753
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 10: payday lenders to just Wells Fargo with the with the

754
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 10: bank accounts right, you know, opening up fraudulent bank accounts.

755
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 10: It's just like anything that banks can do to screw

756
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 10: you over or Venmo or any of these payment apps

757
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,919
Speaker 10: or or the new big tech payment systems, like there

758
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 10: is supervision that is coming from the CFPB.

759
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 6: All of that stuff can be really useful, you know.

760
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 10: I mean, think about all the surveillance that these companies

761
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 10: can engage in over your payments and how they can

762
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 10: manipulate what you pay. All that stuff can be overseen

763
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 10: by the CFPB or by other administrative agencies and or

764
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 10: it cannot be right, or you can just have let

765
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 10: meta and Walmart and whoever just kind of worked together

766
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 10: to charge you more when they know you'll pay versus not.

767
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 10: And I think that's kind of the open question, right

768
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 10: is where where is Trump going to go? And we

769
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 10: can see that this is a move from Mark Andriesen,

770
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 10: who's a very smart guy, to push the Trump in

771
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 10: a certain direction.

772
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: As another example, just last year, they returned one hundred

773
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 2: and forty million dollars to consumers who were hit by

774
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 2: illegal junk fees and banking auto loans remittances. You know,

775
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: over its lifetime, it's returned nineteen billion dollars to consumers.

776
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 6: Kyle actually was hit with.

777
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 2: Some of these, yeah, illegal fees that he was, you know,

778
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 2: a beneficial area of Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. And I

779
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 2: think your point, which has helped me understand what's going

780
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 2: on here, is that it's very easy to be like, oh,

781
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Warren's associated with it. You don't like her, right,

782
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 2: she's this you know, political villain or I'm trying to

783
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 2: create her as this political villain. Ergo, this agency that

784
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: she's somewhat associated with must be part of the bad administration,

785
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 2: that administrative state that you want to just get rid of.

786
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 2: When in reality, this is probably one of the parts

787
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: of government that has been most effective in actually protecting

788
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 2: and delivering for regular people.

789
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 6: It is that's exactly right.

790
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 10: And I would say, like another example that is not

791
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 10: you know, poor put upon consumers, but is maybe more

792
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 10: what Mark Riesen is talking about, which is competition. They

793
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 10: just implemented what's called an open banking rule right where

794
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 10: they said, your data at your bank account, right is

795
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 10: yours and if you want to take it somewhere else

796
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 10: you can. They have to make it easy, easier to

797
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 10: switch bank accounts with all of you know, your bill

798
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 10: pay and all the rest of it. And that, you know,

799
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 10: one of the reasons. So I got screwed by Capital One.

800
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 10: They they said, oh, we're going to pay a certain

801
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 10: interest rate. And then a few years later I was

802
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 10: on my bank account. I was like, oh, I'm not

803
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 10: getting what happened. They're like, oh, you you know, there's

804
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 10: some technically I read about that, yeah, you know, And

805
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 10: then there was a class actually made the lost because

806
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 10: they right, but I wanted to switch and it was

807
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 10: it's a pain in the ass to switch bank accounts.

808
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 5: Right.

809
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 10: So this open banking rule, which was put into statute

810
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 10: in twenty ten, right, and Rohe Chopra finally implemented it. Right,

811
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 10: it's going to go into effect, and that's going to

812
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 10: allow new companies, new banks, new FinTechs to come in

813
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 10: and compete for your business. Right, it's going to help innovation,

814
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 10: and it's going to threaten the bank the big bankers, Well,

815
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 10: the big bankers are really mad about it in our

816
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 10: suing the CFPB about and that's that's kind of a

817
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:48,439
Speaker 10: big fight.

818
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 5: Now.

819
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 10: If you accept Mark Andriesen's argument that the CFPB is

820
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 10: this Elizabeth Warren agency that's just out for terrorizing, you know,

821
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 10: financial institutions. It doesn't like competition, then why are the

822
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 10: bankers suing to block the CFPB from forcing the banks

823
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 10: to allow competition?

824
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 6: Right?

825
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 10: That's kind of the question here, And and I think

826
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 10: we we have to move beyond these old kind of

827
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 10: hoary arguments about about the administrative state and get to

828
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 10: the point which I think Trump is going to realize,

829
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 10: which is that this is a complex society. You have

830
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 10: to figure out how to govern it, right, And I

831
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 10: don't think Biden figured that out. I don't think we've

832
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 10: we've had effective governance for a long time, and we

833
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 10: need it, and they're going to have to figure out

834
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 10: something right. And I think if you listen to Mark Andreeson,

835
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 10: they're not going to They're not going to figure.

836
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 6: It out right.

837
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 10: And then you're going to see the same thing we've

838
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 10: seen for a long time, which is swing backs, swings

839
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 10: back to the other party, right, And that that's the

840
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 10: broader point here. It's not just about the CFPB, It's

841
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 10: about can you accept governance?

842
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 6: Right?

843
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: Interesting rebuddle. Thank you, appreciate it, Matt.

844
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: Always great to see you.

845
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 6: Thank you, Yeah, thanks for having me.

846
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 2: Bernie Sanders, who's model of class first, anti billionaire politics

847
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 2: has just been dramatically vindicated by the sweeping verdict against

848
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: the Democratic establishment, had some advice for Democrats who were

849
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: thinking about the upcoming DNC chair race. In particular, he said, quote,

850
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 2: if the Democratic Party is to become a small d

851
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 2: Democratic party, the first job of a new DNC chair

852
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 2: is to get super pac money out of Democratic primaries.

853
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: APAC and other billionaire funded superpacks cannot be allowed to

854
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: select Democratic candidates. Now, that's something that I and others

855
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 2: have been calling for. After all, sure will be difficult

856
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: to get the Supreme Court to overturn the rash of

857
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 2: decisions which have flooded unlimited money into our politics. But

858
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 2: at the very least democrats within their own party contests

859
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 2: can model cleaner elections by banning super PACs from playing

860
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 2: at all. This would prevent massive interest groups like APAC

861
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 2: and cryptolobbyists from having more ability to pick Democratic candidates

862
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 2: than Democratic voters do. Apparently, However, MSNBC they found this

863
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 2: suggestion from Bernie to be what are we preposterous? Just

864
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: take a listen.

865
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,240
Speaker 5: So you have Bernie Sanders tweeting on Monday.

866
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 8: If the Democratic Party is to become a democratic party,

867
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 8: the first job of the new DNC chairs to get

868
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 8: the super pac money out of Democratic primaries. APAC and

869
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 8: other billionaire funded super PACs cannot be allowed to select

870
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 8: Democratic candidates.

871
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 5: They typically don't.

872
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 8: They're not going to put their money into a DNC

873
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 8: chairman's race. So again, for me, as the head of

874
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 8: former head of a party, as county chairman and a

875
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:38,479
Speaker 8: state chairman, that to me is shortsighted. Thinking about where

876
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 8: the landscape is one thing that has very little to

877
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 8: do with the other super PACs and all those guys

878
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 8: play in elections and campaigns. That's a different conversation than

879
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 8: running for chairmen and telling the people.

880
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 5: Who will write checks, we don't want you write checks.

881
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 12: Yeah, you're absolutely right. With all due respect to Senator Sanders,

882
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 12: you know you might want to join the party if

883
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 12: you want to have some Well, there is that, so

884
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 12: you know, just on its face it that's problematic for me.

885
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 12: Now in terms of the money, Look, that's not the

886
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 12: DNC's issue. You're you're exactly right, mister Sherman, that that

887
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 12: kind of money is in local races and state races,

888
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 12: and the laws vary by state. So you for the

889
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 12: DNC to spend its time and energy on what State

890
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 12: A says versus what State B says, what versus what

891
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 12: see canadacy is just doesn't make any sense to me.

892
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:33,879
Speaker 12: There's so much work for the next chair to do

893
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,959
Speaker 12: that would not be in the top ten of things

894
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 12: that I focused on.

895
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 2: Wow, these people are so accustomed just swimming in the

896
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 2: water is a big money political corruption and donor domination

897
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 2: that they cannot even conceive of doing things a different way,

898
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 2: as MSNBC has always done towards Bernie's incredibly common sense approach.

899
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 2: They can do little other than Scoff and sneer writing

900
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,240
Speaker 2: him for not officially being a member of their little club.

901
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 2: It's worth taking note, by the way, of who these

902
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 2: three actually are. You've got Michael Steele, a former Republican

903
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 2: Party chair who is considered apparently to be a more

904
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 2: worthy ally and advisor than Bernie Sanders. Leah Daughtry is

905
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 2: a former chief of staff to the DNC chair. She

906
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: was prominently featured in a New York Times article in

907
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen about panicked Democratic insiders who are organizing an

908
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 2: internal effort to stop Sanders. Let me give you a

909
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 2: little taste of that article so you can get a

910
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 2: sense of her politics. Quote from canopey filled fundraisers on

911
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 2: the coast to the cloak rooms of Washington. Mainstream Democrats

912
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 2: are increasingly worried that their effort to defeat President Trump

913
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty could be complicated by mister Sanders in

914
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 2: a political scenario all too reminiscent of how mister Trump

915
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: himself sees the Republican nomination in twenty sixteen. Because God forbid,

916
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 2: the guy with an actual organic populist following represent this

917
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 2: decrepit party and then coming out the trio. You've got

918
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 2: Alicia Menendez, who happens to be the daughter of the

919
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: guy who was convicted of selling his Senate influence for

920
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 2: gold bars and other goodies. Gee, can't imagine why MSNBC

921
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 2: is lost half of their viewership. In fact, while I

922
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 2: and others have said plenty and written plenty about how

923
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 2: Democrats need to embrace a populous class war frame, the

924
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 2: obvious first and essential battle in this fight is the

925
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 2: one that Bernie Sanders identifies, getting money out of politics. Ironically,

926
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: since Trump just won while raising vastly less money than

927
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 2: Kamala did, the old excuse the Democrats can't unilaterally disarm

928
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 2: lest they be electorally destroyed, that is now totally bunked.

929
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 2: They have got no plausible excuse left to keep orienting

930
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: their party around the needs of their donors instead of

931
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 2: the needs of workers. In a new op ed, Rocanna

932
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 2: and Larry Lesseg lay out some specific ideas for how

933
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 2: to begin this fight. One battle is demanding, as Bernie

934
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 2: did that the next DNC chair bans super Pac money

935
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 2: in dem primaries. But the other front is in the courts.

936
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 2: In fact, the corruption case against MSNBC host Alicia Menendez's

937
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 2: dad provides a roadmap forward because it proved that super

938
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 2: pac giving could in fact constitute a quid pro quo.

939
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 2: That was something the courts had previously said was impossible.

940
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 2: Now they use that flawed rationale to strike down all

941
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 2: limits on super pac giving. That's why billionaires can give

942
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 2: one hundred million dollars to super pac but individuals can

943
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 2: only contribute a few thousand dollars directly to a campaign.

944
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,760
Speaker 2: But plainly, if Menendez can be convicted for accepting super

945
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 2: pac contributions in exchange for political favors, then super PACs

946
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 2: can be part of a quid pro quo and thus

947
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 2: subject to contribution limits. That alone would represent an absolute

948
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: sea change in the campaign finance landscape. For example, Barry

949
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 2: Maddilson just effectively reportedly bought our foreign policy with a

950
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 2: one hundred million dollar contribution to a Trump super pac.

951
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 2: That's why evangelical end time zionis psychos like Mike Kacabee

952
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 2: are now in key positions of power. If she can

953
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 2: only kick and say five or ten thousand dollars, we

954
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 2: might have gotten a little bit more sane foreign policy

955
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 2: team ount of Trump. And that is obviously just one

956
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: example Trump's political project. It's largely not that antagonistic towards billionaires,

957
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 2: which is why so many have backed him. They get

958
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 2: their tax cuts and their government goodies. All they have

959
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 2: to do is to stay on Trump's good side. His

960
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 2: villains are immigrants and cultural elites like Hollywood and academia,

961
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 2: so he can fully pursue his political project while sucking

962
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 2: up hundreds of millions in billionaire cash with little conflict.

963
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 2: For Democrats to answer trump Ism, however, they need to

964
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,839
Speaker 2: go full class war. And you ain't waging class war

965
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: as long as your entire party apparatus and leadership class

966
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: is designed to cater to billionaires. In their op ed,

967
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 2: Conna and Lessig say that this dynamic results in what

968
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,919
Speaker 2: they call golden handcuffs. The treasure the Democrats raise from

969
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: the billionaire class then locks them in to a status

970
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 2: quo friendly orientation, and you can actually see those golden

971
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 2: handcuffs snap into place in real time over the course

972
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 2: of the hairt campaign. My friend Branco marsaitiic over at

973
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: Jacobin ran the data, and I have yet to see

974
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 2: anything more compelling in terms of understanding Kamala's momentum stall

975
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,959
Speaker 2: and eventual loss. So if you look at this chart.

976
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 2: The blue line you see here tracks quote democracy rhetoric

977
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 2: over the course of the campaign. That would include the

978
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 2: use of words like authoritarian checks and balances, insurrection and

979
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 2: the like. The red line tracks quote anti elite rhetoric

980
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 2: over the course of the campaign, so that would be

981
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 2: words like elites, billionaire's, corporate greed, things like that. You

982
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 2: can see as the campaign went on, Kamala's brother in

983
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,720
Speaker 2: lawn uber exec Tony West, got his way. The campaign

984
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 2: backed away from their price gouging corporate greed rhetoric. They

985
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 2: put tim Walls on the shelf, and they lean into

986
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,879
Speaker 2: the Liz Cheney strategy. It was a disaster. Now we've

987
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 2: covered here the research from the Center for Working Class

988
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 2: Politics that found democracy rhetoric was the least effective of

989
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 2: all messages for working class wing voters. Conversely, a populist

990
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 2: economics pitch was the most effective and yet the most

991
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 2: powerful ad that the Kamma campaign cut, which focused on

992
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 2: price gouging and greedy landlords, never even saw the light

993
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 2: of day. That makes no electoral sense. It only makes

994
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 2: sense once you understand that the campaign's first goal was

995
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 2: not to win, but to keep their big money backers happy.

996
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: To not rock the boat.

997
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 2: Now, if you don't change that dynamic, this party is

998
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 2: never going to change. But of course no one should

999
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: be under any illusions of the difficulty of accomplishing this shift,

1000
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 2: because not only our messages and issues selected to put

1001
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: donors at ease, candidates are as well. Have you ever

1002
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 2: wondered why so many politicians, both left and right, are bland, talentless,

1003
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 2: well credentialed packs. The reason is they were not selected

1004
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 2: for their deep insights, ratorical skills, or leadership prowess. They

1005
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,720
Speaker 2: are selected because they are either themselves wealthy self funders,

1006
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 2: or because they are skilled at separating rich people from

1007
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 2: their money. That was the secret to Kamla's success, and

1008
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 2: it's the reason why so many of the Democrats in

1009
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 2: leadership are from New York and California, because that's where

1010
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 2: the money is. So if raising money is your primary

1011
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 2: skill and the key to your political power, you are

1012
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 2: probably not going to be too eager to shift to

1013
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 2: a model that might actually prioritize not being repellent to voters. Now,

1014
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 2: if all the questions facing Democrats as they consider a

1015
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 2: new chair, this one is non negotiable. Will they ban

1016
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: big money from party primaries. That answer will tell you

1017
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 2: whether Dems are serious at all about change, or, as

1018
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 2: Bernie and I unfortunately suspect, just interested in keeping their

1019
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 2: lucrative racket. I know this a little bit of a

1020
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 2: weedzy debate, but it's an absolutely

1021
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 3: And if you want to hear my reaction to Crystal's monologue,

1022
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 3: become a premium subscriber today at breakingpoints dot com.