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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well it is official. I am the Royal Night.

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Speaker 2: What a fun experience. Had such a blast doing that show.

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Speaker 2: It was so incredibly hard for me not to respond

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Speaker 2: back to people, to you guys in my dms when

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Speaker 2: you would be like, I know it's you. It's a winker.

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Speaker 2: I know you're the Royal Night. So it was Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was hard for me not to say, but it

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Speaker 2: was so sweet. I loved all y'all's dms. You guys

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Speaker 2: knew from the very beginning. I was telling Alan, I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh my gosh, babe, because I didn't think anyone.

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Speaker 2: At first, I was a little hesitant to do the

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Speaker 2: show because I'm like, they're going to be so disappointed

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Speaker 2: when they unmasked me, and they'll be like, who is that?

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Speaker 2: Like I don't feel like I'm like big enough to

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Speaker 2: be on the show or whatever, so they're going to

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Speaker 2: be like, wait, who. But the fact that it made

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Speaker 2: me feel so much better. Honestly, when I went to

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Speaker 2: like that day that the first episode aired, I went

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Speaker 2: to the masked singer like Facebook or not Facebook, the Instagram,

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Speaker 2: and people were like Jana Gramer Jana Grammer. I was like, ah, thanks, guys.

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Speaker 2: I was like, wow, well and I was like, okay,

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Speaker 2: like maybe you know, people do know who I am

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Speaker 2: or whatever. So that felt sweet. And then you know

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Speaker 2: how I'm always like, well I don't really have that

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Speaker 2: good of a voice or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: The fact that they were some of the guesses they

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Speaker 2: were like faith Hill. I was like, guys. I was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm so honored. This is this is the best feeling

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Speaker 2: in the world to I got like a because I'm

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Speaker 2: usually not confident when I sing, and that show gave

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Speaker 2: me a little bit of confidence.

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Speaker 3: Every time you come off, I thought you were.

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Speaker 2: You were there supporting. It was so no one knew

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Speaker 2: obviously because you had to wear the gloves and we

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Speaker 2: couldn't tell anyone, but you were there supporting, and it

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Speaker 2: was it was so it was right before the wedding

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Speaker 2: when we got the text and I like screamed and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my gosh, I just got offered to

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Speaker 2: be on the messinger and You're like, oh what.

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Speaker 3: I didn't even know what it was.

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Speaker 2: And then when I was showing you you're I was like,

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Speaker 2: look like, this person's dressed like a gumball and then

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Speaker 2: this person's like, and you were like, you want to do.

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Speaker 3: This, yeah, but I don't think I've seen you as

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Speaker 3: excited as when you got that email through.

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Speaker 2: I was so excited. It's a show that I've wanted

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Speaker 2: to do for a while, so I was just so

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Speaker 2: incredibly pumped. And then it worked it right before the wedding,

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Speaker 2: which was awesome that we were able to do it.

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Speaker 2: You know, we were able to We flew to Los

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Speaker 2: Angeles and we run it an Airbnb. We had a

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Speaker 2: little issue with the first Airbnb, it was a little

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Speaker 2: too loud, so then we went to the second airbb.

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Speaker 2: But it was so fun. I think the hardest part

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Speaker 2: about that show was that you can't repeat. You can't

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Speaker 2: repeat a song. So like that show has been on

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Speaker 2: for I don't even know how many years. I want

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Speaker 2: to say, like seven, maybe years, No, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: but however long it's been on, you cannot repeat any

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Speaker 2: song that's ever been done. So it's an entire list,

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Speaker 2: so everything I wanted, like I wanted to sing, you know,

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Speaker 2: songs that I was comfortable with or that I've known,

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Speaker 2: or that maybe that I've covered on stage. Oh my god,

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Speaker 2: twelve seasons yeah, so crazy. So just think of all

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Speaker 2: the songs that have already been done hit after hit

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Speaker 2: after hit. I mean just Ton and the three. The two,

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Speaker 2: the first two that I sang, I had never even

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Speaker 2: like heard of them.

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Speaker 3: What were they? It was?

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Speaker 2: The first one was the Lady Gaga one, which I love.

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Speaker 2: It's such a good song. I can't remember the name

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Speaker 2: of it now. And then when I look at You

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Speaker 2: with the Miley Cyras song, which, by the way, Matt

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Speaker 2: appreciation for Maley Ciris because I mean, I knew she

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Speaker 2: was a good singer, but she goes so high. We

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Speaker 2: had to lower that like two tones down because it

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Speaker 2: was so high.

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Speaker 3: Costume was amazing.

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Speaker 2: My costume was so fun. I cried when they said

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Speaker 2: I was going to be the night because I'm like,

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Speaker 2: my husband calls me his warrior and you know, so

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Speaker 2: that was really sweet. I did get claustrophobic and at

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Speaker 2: the first time trying it on though, because there's like

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Speaker 2: twelve people like sewing it on me, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: feel trapped. You could see, you can barely see, so

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Speaker 2: it's like if okay, So I want everyone at home

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Speaker 2: to take a coffee filter and then look through it

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Speaker 2: and see because that's literally what it is. You can

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Speaker 2: barely see, but it was it was the best experience.

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Speaker 2: I had so much fun. And I was saying, I

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Speaker 2: was doing some press this week about it, and I

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Speaker 2: feel like I'm always trying to, you know, do everything

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Speaker 2: for everyone else. And it's like, do you know, take

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Speaker 2: care of the kids, make sure the kids are happy,

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Speaker 2: make sure you're happy, make sure And it was like,

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Speaker 2: this was an opportunity for me to be a little

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Speaker 2: bit selfish and for me to go have fun. And

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Speaker 2: it was like it was the most on I ever

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Speaker 2: had on doing a show because everyone, like from the cast,

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Speaker 2: I didn't know the cast, but from like the crew

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Speaker 2: and like the for the ads, everyone just like helping.

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Speaker 2: Everyone was so nice. They were like they were asking

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Speaker 2: what we wanted for dinner all the time, Like they

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Speaker 2: were just so sweet.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you might go back on it something, you know,

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Speaker 3: they I've got the voice of an angel.

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Speaker 2: Would you have done? Would you do a show like that?

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Speaker 3: Who's going to know me?

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Speaker 2: I'm just saying, like, would you ever do a show

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Speaker 2: like that? Why? Come on, let's hear a little a

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Speaker 2: little singing voice. La la la la la.

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Speaker 3: I've never even sang on a karaoke Ever, No, I

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Speaker 3: have a fear of exposing.

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Speaker 2: Myself because you're that good.

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Speaker 3: Because I'm exposing all us to the child magnitude of

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Speaker 3: my voice. I think of ten cats fighting with each other.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, you were incredible and it was a good

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Speaker 3: experience like being being taken on nail with the masks

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Speaker 3: on and the hoodies on. And Troy experienced that, which

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Speaker 3: was a different frimend that he had experience where you

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Speaker 3: couldn't speak, and.

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Speaker 2: I know I always wanted to see like what he

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Speaker 2: like because as you guys, don't have it over there

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Speaker 2: right in London, or do you have the show?

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Speaker 3: I think there's a British one.

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Speaker 2: Oh there's a British one. Okay, thanks, Yeah, I know.

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Speaker 2: It was so fun to have everyone there and experience it,

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Speaker 2: and I got to FaceTime the kids. They were on beach.

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Speaker 2: They were on their beach trip with with with Mike.

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Speaker 2: So it just worked out just perfectly with the schedule

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Speaker 2: and but no, it was it was really nice to

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Speaker 2: have the experience together.

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Speaker 3: A lot of pressure for you, which you handled as

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Speaker 3: you always do.

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Speaker 2: It was so fun. I want to go back. I

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Speaker 2: miss it and I was so fine though, remember we were.

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Speaker 2: I was ready to go though, because I knew I

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Speaker 2: wasn't going to win. So I was like, all right,

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Speaker 2: I knew in my life, I think you're one on us. No,

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Speaker 2: I was like, I was like, babe, I know. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I love your support, but I'm not going to win.

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Speaker 2: And it's okay, Like I'm so fine with it. I

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Speaker 2: know in my group had such a talented group. See that,

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Speaker 2: I was like, there's there's no way. I'm like, Strawberry

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Speaker 2: Shortcake blows me out of the water. She's so incredibly good.

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Speaker 2: The hound dog like he's got all everyone going like,

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Speaker 2: you know, woof, woof woof, like doing the whole like

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Speaker 2: wolfing thing. I was like, they're like they those two

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Speaker 2: got it in the bag. And so I was like,

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Speaker 2: they're they you know they're going to win. And honestly,

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Speaker 2: like the kids were just coming home from the beach

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Speaker 2: trip on the day that, you know, so I was like,

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Speaker 2: I really truly want to go home. I was like,

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Speaker 2: I want to get I said, I was like, I

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Speaker 2: want three episodes and then I want to be out.

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Speaker 2: And I wasn't just saying that because a lot of

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Speaker 2: times I say that because I want to protect me

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Speaker 2: losing or me not doing a good job. But it

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Speaker 2: was truly like I was so happy because I wanted

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Speaker 2: to get back because I mean, next week we were

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Speaker 2: leaving for the wedding, so I was like, I don't

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Speaker 2: want I was like, I'm so good. This is like

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Speaker 2: such a great experience. I had fun, and now I'm

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Speaker 2: ready to go home. And I think that it was

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Speaker 2: tough too, because the last performance, the Holiday song, I

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Speaker 2: was supposed to be singing Ariana Grande's Yes and but

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Speaker 2: I just couldn't get the lyrics for some reason. And

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Speaker 2: so remember like the night before the performance, the producer

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Speaker 2: texted me and they're like, hey, we're changing her song.

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, they also knew it sucked because

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Speaker 2: I'm like, if production's changing my song the night of,

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Speaker 2: it was not good. So they changed my song last

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Speaker 2: minute to Holiday, which you know, it's totally fine, but

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Speaker 2: I also knew that was not a winning a winning song.

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Speaker 2: But it was so fun. I had a great time.

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Speaker 2: Everyone thought I was a gymnast though, so so we

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Speaker 2: don't know anybody in the cast. I didn't know who

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Speaker 2: Strawberry Shortcake was. I didn't know who the hound dog was,

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Speaker 2: and I'm always I can't ever sit still, so when

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Speaker 2: we're doing like camera or blocking, I'm just like stretching

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Speaker 2: and I'm doing the splits. And so my vocal coach,

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Speaker 2: who I just adore, she's amazing. She was like, everyone

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Speaker 2: thinks you're a gymnast. I was like, ah, because I

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Speaker 2: was constantly doing the splits. So I even have a picture.

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Speaker 3: Like maybe constantly done because.

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Speaker 2: I was stretching. I love to stretch. You knew I'm

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Speaker 2: always stretching.

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Speaker 3: The speats in front of me.

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Speaker 2: I just did it in the gym the other day.

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Speaker 2: I was like, hey, Bibe, look I can still take

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Speaker 2: the splits. Anyways, it was so fun. Thank you for

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Speaker 2: being so supportive, and thank you for everyone for again

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Speaker 2: sending me. It just warmed my heart. Every DM that

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Speaker 2: I got it was so much fun and so sweet.

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Speaker 2: And I'm sorry that I couldn't do a winkie face back.

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Speaker 2: I really wanted to.

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Speaker 3: But do you think people got it from your voice

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Speaker 3: or your story or they combining both.

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Speaker 2: I think I have a different sounding voice that I

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Speaker 2: think that's what they got it. But someone said I

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Speaker 2: knew from the first second you started singing because you're

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Speaker 2: your voice. But then I have mannerisms on stage where

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Speaker 2: I do like this squat thing. I don't know why

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Speaker 2: I do it, but I do. And so I think

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Speaker 2: some of my mannerisms also gave way. And then the story,

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Speaker 2: so the warrior hint gave it away. So there was

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Speaker 2: the warrior clue and then like my troubled past relationships

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Speaker 2: gave it away. But it was fun, so fun. Thank

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Speaker 2: you for all the love, thank you for watching, Thank

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Speaker 2: you for just making me feel so like, I don't know, loved,

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Speaker 2: so fun. All right, speaking of being loved and not

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Speaker 2: in the right way. Actually, we are having a narcissistic

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Speaker 2: abuse psychologist coming on the show. Her name is doctor

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Speaker 2: Jamie Zuckerman. She's got a podcast actually called the Narcissism

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Speaker 2: Podcast as well. So let's take a break and let's

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Speaker 2: get her on.

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Speaker 4: Hi.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Hi.

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Speaker 2: So we were supposed to have you about a month ago,

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Speaker 2: and Alan made a really funny comment. This is my husband,

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Speaker 2: Alan our Shaw, so you know, he was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I was really excited to talk to her, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh yeah, I'm like. I was like, you know,

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Speaker 2: she's like a narcissist, you know, special, And I was like,

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Speaker 2: and you were excited. He's like, yeah, He's like, sometimes

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Speaker 2: I think I'm a narcissist, and I was like, honey,

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Speaker 2: I was like, no, you're not. But then we kind

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Speaker 2: of started talking about it, and then I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: why did you think that? Like why'd you say that?

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Speaker 2: I think, thanks for the Well, got to go right

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Speaker 2: into it.

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Speaker 3: I think sometimes and I've got it noted down here

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Speaker 3: where I think, if you're sometimes selfishness can be deemed

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Speaker 3: as narcissistic. And I walk with a lot of high

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Speaker 3: performance athletes. That's why the particularly strikers, who are the

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Speaker 3: ones in soccer professional that scored the goals. So these

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Speaker 3: guys have they're not narcissists, but they have narcissistic traits

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Speaker 3: and tendencies because there's so much pressure on them to

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Speaker 3: be the game winner, and so therefore they're really there's

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Speaker 3: high account accountability levels, so therefore they feel like they

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Speaker 3: need to look after themselves first, their own performance first,

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Speaker 3: or they can't win for the team. So I train

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Speaker 3: those guys. That's what I do for eleven and and

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Speaker 3: I think, okay, a lot of them will get narcissistic

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Speaker 3: traits and I'm the one that coaches them. But again,

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Speaker 3: it goes back to it, Okay, if you high perform,

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Speaker 3: and I think there has to be a certain of

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Speaker 3: selfishness and your decision and your approach to things. So

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Speaker 3: sometimes I think throughout the years have been called a

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Speaker 3: narcissist quite a lot.

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Speaker 2: But here's the deal, though, I feel like everyone has

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Speaker 2: narcissistic That's I'm going to circle back to it. Like

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Speaker 2: when you said that, I'm like, well, I think everyone has.

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Speaker 2: Like when you look at the checklist, there's a checklist

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Speaker 2: of what like ten plus things. I'm like, everyone at

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Speaker 2: some point has had a narcissistic trait, you know. So

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I think we all can embody traits of it.

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Speaker 2: I don't think you're like, because I saw a thing

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Speaker 2: where there's what is the actual percentage of someone actually

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Speaker 2: being a true narcissist.

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Speaker 1: So here's my take on that. So it's an extremely

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Speaker 1: low percentage. It's I think it's two percent or something

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Speaker 1: of the population. But the problem with that is is

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Speaker 1: that narcissis don't present for treatment, they don't think anything's wrong.

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Speaker 1: So that number is I have no doubt, you know,

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Speaker 1: very Let's say I'm just underestimated.

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Speaker 4: We'll say I'm sure that.

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Speaker 1: There are way more out there than we realize because

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Speaker 1: they don't present for treatment, so it's very hard to

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Speaker 1: get a number, and a lot of the times it's secondhand.

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Speaker 1: So it's my patients coming in and telling me these

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Speaker 1: symptoms and these descriptions of the relationship and me saying

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Speaker 1: that really meets criteria for somebody who has narcisistic personality disorder.

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Speaker 4: But rarely do I get some in my office and

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Speaker 4: say this is what you have and let's work on

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Speaker 4: it. It just doesn't just doesn't show up like that.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's interesting because I do feel you know,

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Speaker 2: obviously we all have axes, and so you know, I've

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Speaker 2: had my ex call me a narcissist. He's had some

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Speaker 2: axes call him an narcissist, and so I remember going

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Speaker 2: to therapy and I'm like, am I one? Like I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, Like let's try and figure it out.

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Speaker 2: She's like you even asking if you're exactly exactly you're

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Speaker 2: not one, and I'm like, exactly, but it's true.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think to your point earlier, when you're

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Speaker 1: at an elite level for an athlete, you know, and

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Speaker 1: even if CEOs you look at anybody who's in this

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Speaker 1: high performance for their area, there's a certain type of person.

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Speaker 1: There's a certain type of person that you know can

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Speaker 1: play at that level, right, And so you have to

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Speaker 1: have that ability to self regulate, be very kind of

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Speaker 1: inside yourself, because so much of that high level sports

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Speaker 1: is mental, right, and so you have to be a

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Speaker 1: certain type of person. The difference is is that those

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Speaker 1: qualities may very well work for you, let's say in

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Speaker 1: the sport at the time during a match or you know,

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Speaker 1: but if you can switch that when you're with your

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Speaker 1: wife and when you're with your friends when you're not playing,

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Speaker 1: that's not narcissism, right, That's that's just as long as

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Speaker 1: you're able to switch it within different scenarios. That's just

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Speaker 1: you using your traits that are a benefit to you

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Speaker 1: at that time. It's when you're like that all the time,

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Speaker 1: regardless of this situation, it's pervasive across all areas of

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Speaker 1: your life.

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Speaker 4: And then as far as exis.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's one of the reasons why I'm

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Speaker 1: so happy that people have me on to talk about this,

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Speaker 1: because so many people use that term they are narcissists

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Speaker 1: as a dumping route because you know they were they

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Speaker 1: were adults. If there's no other way to say it,

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Speaker 1: you know, and that's the only reason why.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well it's interesting because some of the things that

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Speaker 2: when you go on there, it's like, Okay, you know,

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Speaker 2: why did you go Is it the lack of empathy

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Speaker 2: at a time? But I'm like, you're but like you

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Speaker 2: work on empathy, you you know, there's you go to

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Speaker 2: therapy like and that's I think someone that, like she

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Speaker 2: was saying, that doesn't go into places and like we're

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Speaker 2: both trying to work on things that we know are

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Speaker 2: parts of ourselves that need a little growth in areas.

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Speaker 2: So I think someone that is a true narcissist, like

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Speaker 2: she said, like they don't come in for quote unquote

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Speaker 2: like treatment, you.

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Speaker 1: Would have no concern about empathy. And and if if

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Speaker 1: you needed to have empathy in a particular situation, you'd

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Speaker 1: fake it cognitively, you'd be aware that you know, you're

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Speaker 1: supposed to feel empathy, but you don't, and there would

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Speaker 1: be you wouldn't have any motivation to do that unless

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Speaker 1: it benefited you. And that's definitely not going to be

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Speaker 1: continuously going to therapy and having conversations with your spouse

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Speaker 1: about it and doing the hard work.

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Speaker 4: That's a narcissist won't do that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's also a well that in the

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Speaker 3: last few years gets banded around and generalized so much.

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Speaker 3: It really does. I mean, as soon as someone hears

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Speaker 3: something that they don't want to hear a couple of times,

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Speaker 3: then you've banded a narcissist.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 3: You do things that you need to do because like

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Speaker 3: so you said to me this morning, Well, if you

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Speaker 3: need to go for a run, you go for a wheer,

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Speaker 3: you need to go to the gym, you go to

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Speaker 3: the gym. That's just me taking care of myself because

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Speaker 3: I know what I'm like mentally if I don't do

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Speaker 3: those things. Yeah, right, Whereas I think, yeah, I think

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Speaker 3: it's just you just hear it so often. Now, Like

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Speaker 3: who was it we had on a few weeks ago

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Speaker 3: and it was about and I said, it was also

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Speaker 3: really generalized. It was a condition.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I have no idea, I can't remember.

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Speaker 3: But again it was like another buzzword that people want

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Speaker 3: to use when they're really uneducated about what. So that's

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Speaker 3: why it's always best to speak to people like yourself

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Speaker 3: who are experts in that field. They know exactly what

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Speaker 3: it takes in the situation to present themselves to be

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Speaker 3: a narcissist, because people just jump on these words and

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Speaker 3: and call people narcissists, and it's it's pretty damaged when

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Speaker 3: they're not narcissistic people.

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Speaker 1: It is because what you know, when when you do

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Speaker 1: have that personality disorder, you know, people will say to

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Speaker 1: me sometimes, you know, you're a psychologist, and you know,

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Speaker 1: how could you talk so badly about you know, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's not that it's just the behaviors and

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Speaker 1: the manifestation.

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Speaker 4: Of narcissis personal disorder.

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Speaker 1: Is it is that bad, And so when you report

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Speaker 1: the symptoms, it ends up being the really horrific thing

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Speaker 1: that it sounds like. And so people just throw their

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Speaker 1: exes into that because it kind of removes accountability and

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Speaker 1: it makes it easier for them to push them away

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Speaker 1: or to you know, just talk badly about them or if.

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Speaker 2: They won't saying that person's a narcissists, actually the narcissists.

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Speaker 4: Say correct, and you'll see that someone that's a narcissist.

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Speaker 1: If you listen to how they talk about their exes,

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Speaker 1: they're always the victim, always their exes are always crazy,

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Speaker 1: they have narcissistic personality disorder. They stalk them, they you know,

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Speaker 1: all of the they won't stop contacting them. And so

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Speaker 1: if you hear that as a pattern of somebody's exes,

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Speaker 1: it's not that that's the only red flag, but if

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Speaker 1: you hear that, it's something to just kind of, you know,

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Speaker 1: be mindful.

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Speaker 2: Of, right, No, for sure, what do you say to

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Speaker 2: someone that is in a relationship with a true narcissist?

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Speaker 2: What is your biggest tip for them to to, you know,

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Speaker 2: get help, because obviously I don't. Have you ever seen

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Speaker 2: someone willing to actually do the work that is a

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Speaker 2: narciss No, yeah, there's no. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, I mean to be fair, I have seen people

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Speaker 1: and then they bring their significant other in and what

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Speaker 1: really ends up happening is the significant other on the surface,

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Speaker 1: and this is where I think people get confused. On

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Speaker 1: the surface, they could have grown up in an environment

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Speaker 1: with a narcissist, let's say, and so they develop these

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Speaker 1: patterns of behavior that on the surface look exactly the

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Speaker 1: same as a narcissist, but they're not. They just look

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Speaker 1: the same. And so when they hear listen, your behaviors

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Speaker 1: are hurting me. They don't want that, they don't want

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Speaker 1: to hurt somebody that they love, and so they're willing

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Speaker 1: to change those patterns. Whereas a narcissist, if they come

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Speaker 1: ince my office with their significant other, it's either going

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Speaker 1: to be they're going to walk out mid session, they're

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Speaker 1: going to absolutely hate me, and they're going to say

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Speaker 1: the worst therapist in the world.

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Speaker 4: She doesn't know what she's talking about.

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Speaker 1: We're never going back to her again, or they'll try

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Speaker 1: to charm me, which won't work and they'll leave. So

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Speaker 1: there's that distinction that I like to make that sometimes

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Speaker 1: people on the surface that behaviors can look similar, but

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Speaker 1: I always say the function of them or the reason

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Speaker 1: behind why they're doing is very different.

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Speaker 2: What do you think the most damaging abuse from a

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Speaker 2: narcissist is? Like? Which trait?

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Speaker 1: Oh God, I mean, it's all You can't really tease

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Speaker 1: it apart because it's all it's financial, emotional, sexual, physical, psychological.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't you can't really tease that apart. You know,

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Speaker 1: some are more than others. Let's say, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: there's more emotional abuse than physical abuse. But I would

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Speaker 1: have to say I think the psychological emotional long term abuse.

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Speaker 1: It really just strips people of their sense of self

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Speaker 1: and it is so unbelievably damaging.

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Speaker 3: Of course, is that effectual mind and not you're body.

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Speaker 1: In that, Yeah, it's that coercive control. It's it's the

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Speaker 1: kind of it's the kind of abuse that you know. Outwardly,

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Speaker 1: they're lovely, right, they're they're philanthropic, even they're they're happy,

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Speaker 1: they're the life of the party. But then behind closed doors,

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Speaker 1: they're just monsters and they're very abusive.

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Speaker 2: What do you think the biggest red flag is to

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Speaker 2: look out for in a relationship or a partnership in

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Speaker 2: for narcissistic abuse.

432
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so in the beginning, and this is again where

433
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,400
Speaker 1: it's really tricky. In the beginning, it looks really good

434
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 1: right in the beginning, there's all the love bombing. So

435
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 1: it's this it's not just that you connect with somebody.

436
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 1: It's like a whirlwind romance. It's like a tidal wave.

437
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 1: You're calling each other's soulmates. Immediately, you're talking about moving in,

438
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 1: you're talking about getting married, you're talking about having kids,

439
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 1: and it's kind of like you don't even know their

440
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:36,680
Speaker 1: middle name yet, right, Like you don't even know what

441
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 1: foods they're allergic to. I'm sure they could be wonderful,

442
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: but soulmates, you know, maybe, but highly doubtful.

443
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 4: And it's not an organic process.

444
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:48,679
Speaker 1: And I'm not even talking about people that just connect

445
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,359
Speaker 1: right away and they really fall for each other and

446
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 1: they know that it feels right.

447
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 4: This is different.

448
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 1: This is you know, constant calling to you know, constant texting,

449
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 1: speaking for hours through the night when you just met,

450
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 1: and seeing each other and then going on dates every

451
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 1: night after that and planning vacations after date number two.

452
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: They start to pull those vulnerabilities out of you, and

453
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: even though it may feel good and you can trust them,

454
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 1: it really is a dangerous thing to do because what

455
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 1: they're really doing is they're storing these for later use

456
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 1: down the road when they start the manipulation, when they

457
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,120
Speaker 1: start to really kind of strip you of your sense

458
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 1: of self, they use those vulnerabilities to really get it

459
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 1: your your you know, those those deep wounds.

460
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 3: So they constantly go into race relationships with agendas yes,

461
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 3: and strategies.

462
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

463
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just almost like why though, like why and

464
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 2: how like how does that because that just sounds exhausting,

465
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 2: Like I.

466
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 1: Don't know, so if you think of it as you know,

467
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,199
Speaker 1: you feel like you exist separate from other people, right,

468
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: And so with a narcissist, they don't feel that they

469
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 1: almost exist unless they're getting this constant source of we

470
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: call it supply, right, or fuel from other people, whether

471
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 1: that's pissing you off and making you angry on your

472
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 1: birthday and so you're, you know, really upset, and they

473
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 1: know they cause that because they had access to your

474
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: emotions or.

475
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 4: You know, they just need that access to people.

476
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 1: Whether they're getting something good back or negative back, it

477
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It's just what they take to fill themselves up.

478
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,199
Speaker 1: So if you think of everybody as like a gas pump, right,

479
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 1: they just go up and just keep filling, and when

480
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 1: you're depleted, then you serve no purpose for them, which

481
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:32,439
Speaker 1: is why a lot of times they have a lot

482
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 1: of these relationships and there's a lot of infidelity because

483
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 1: they always have kind of people waiting in the wings,

484
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 1: so that when they get bored or they're not getting

485
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 1: there that supplimate, they have other people they they can

486
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: go to, same with their friends and coworkers.

487
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 3: Can people go through phases of the life based on

488
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 3: trauma are based on something that's happened, and they go

489
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 3: through phases of narcissism i e. Three, four or five

490
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 3: years or is it just you're a narcissist and that's

491
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 3: you for your whole life.

492
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: So yeah, so a personality disorder is pervasive. They rarely

493
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 1: like to diagnose it before the age of eighteen because

494
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:26,919
Speaker 1: kids they're still their.

495
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 4: Frontal lobes are still developing. But really they don't diagnose that.

496
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 4: So let's say eighteen.

497
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: So personality disorder, true personality sutter is life long. It's

498
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: a pervasive way of interacting with the world. It's a

499
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: way you see the world, the way that you interact

500
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: with the world. So it's not something that changes. Now

501
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: something like borderline personality disorder. There's treatment for that, so

502
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: you can have people that heal from that, but it's

503
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: always something they're going to need to deal with in

504
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: terms of their inner personal relationships. So you think what

505
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: you're talking about is that when people have a trauma,

506
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: oftentimes trauma responses can look like narcissistic behaviors because your

507
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,479
Speaker 1: body is in this fight or flight mode, You're nervous

508
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: systems disregulated. You may be extremely agitated and freak out

509
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: on people without you know doing, but you're not doing

510
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: it with the intention of control. That's the thing narcissists

511
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,360
Speaker 1: when they do these actions, the goal is to gain

512
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: power and control. I think what you're talking about is

513
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: more of a trauma response. The goal isn't to get

514
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: power and control. The goal is just trying to keep

515
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: yourself safe. And I think that's why you see that

516
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: fluctuation as they start to heal, you may not see

517
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: that if it's going through a tough time, like an anniversary,

518
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: you have a traumatic event, you may see those symptoms

519
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: increase during that time.

520
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that makes sense, and I think that's

521
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 2: probably why some people misdiagnose themselves too, because you know,

522
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 2: even just I know which time period you're talking about.

523
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 2: I know a time period in my life too where

524
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, I was storing people and I was

525
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 2: you know, but it was all a protection, yeah, and

526
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 2: my own trauma from the abuse that I had in

527
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 2: my past.

528
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 3: So yeah, you know, yeah, I think it just goes

529
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 3: back to, Okay, those behaviors were not my normal behavior

530
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 3: in that in that time period. So I'm I'm a

531
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 3: tunnel a narcissist or of my Because you just questioned

532
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 3: your behaviors. And I'm referring to a period of three

533
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 3: or four years in my life where I questioned a

534
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 3: lot that I lost who I was essentially in some

535
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 3: of my traits were bodyline narcissistic, but I knew I

536
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 3: wasn't a narcissist. Another an ever strategized or have agendas

537
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,239
Speaker 3: over people or try to control never ever. I think

538
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 3: it was probably more the okay, feel feel that you

539
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 3: wanted have people there that you know will be for you,

540
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 3: kind of have that safety blanket. Yeah, that's what I

541
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 3: was more referring.

542
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 2: You heard a lot of girls in that process. But

543
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 2: you know what, we all hurt people hurt people, you know, so.

544
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 4: We've all listened. I always say this life is that

545
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 4: life is hard, is hard, you know.

546
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: So I think the fact that you're just acknowledging it

547
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: that it was just when you can say that it's

548
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: a distinct period of time that's different from who you are.

549
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: You know, that's more of a kind of a response

550
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: to you know, either a depression or anxiety or trauma,

551
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: response to something that alters where you're at at that

552
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: time period, and then you kind of go back to

553
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: your baseline or you go back to a healthier state,

554
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: whereas with narcissism, it's just it is.

555
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 2: It just is.

556
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 4: You may look different in different situations, but that's on purpose.

557
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, we're not.

558
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 3: We were.

559
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: I think it's like all of it was like trauma

560
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 2: based for both of us.

561
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 3: But I think if you're stripping it, like throw a

562
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 3: lessoners and like men or women, if you strip, if

563
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 3: you really strip it back, how do you how do

564
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 3: you like five things or six things where people can

565
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 3: almost recognize a narcissist as the partner or the father

566
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 3: or the mother or the brother. What would you say

567
00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 3: those five?

568
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 4: So they probably won't realize it at first.

569
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: Again, which is why I'm glad people do you know,

570
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: talk about it because it's such a slow and citious.

571
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: It's like a leaky faucet, right, So it's just this

572
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,479
Speaker 1: slow drip and then all of a sudden one day

573
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 1: you realize that you're standing in your kitchen and your

574
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: knee deep in water.

575
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 4: So things like.

576
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: If you notice that they are really agitated and get

577
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: really angry to any type of perceived criticism, right, if

578
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: you're like, oh I think I like the white shirt

579
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: on you better, they go into attack mode, right, or

580
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: they start to get really controlling things like you're going

581
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: out with your friends for dinner and they now all

582
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: of a sudden are sick and they need you to

583
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: take care of them and stay at home, and if

584
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: you go, they call you, you know, start calling you

585
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: all the time, and I can't believe you leave me home.

586
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: You can see your friends anytime. So you'll notice that

587
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: they do certain things during important thing the things I

588
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: should say, but but things that mean stuff to you. Right,

589
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: you have, you know, a work event, or you get

590
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: a promotion at work and instead of congratulating you, they

591
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: start a fight with you because you forgot to fill

592
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: the car up with gas.

593
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 4: Right.

594
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: If you feel that you have to always walk on eggshells,

595
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: that you never know what you're going to get from them,

596
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: and that's done on purpose, right, to keep you kind

597
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: of under their control. But if there's no rhyme or

598
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: reason to why they're flying off the handle, and you

599
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: feel that you need to watch what you say, watch

600
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: what you do, you find yourself starting to kind of

601
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: lie by omission or tell these little white lies, not

602
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: because there's anything wrong with it, but because you're nervous

603
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: that they'll get mad something is ridiculous, as you bought lipstick,

604
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: you don't say anything because if you do, they're going

605
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: to say, well, why are you buying lipstick? Who are

606
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: you trying to look good for? So you just don't

607
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: tell them things. And then what happens is, oh, now

608
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,719
Speaker 1: they find the lipstick, and now you're a liar. Right,

609
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: So a lot of this kind of gas lighting switching

610
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: things around, but you lose yourself than that, so it's

611
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: hard to kind of realize what's happening. The other thing

612
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,239
Speaker 1: is if you find yourself starting to become isolated from

613
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: families and from family and friends, because that's something else

614
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: that they really try to do. So if you find

615
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: that you're really kind of detached from people, that's also

616
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: kind of an indication. The other thing too, I would

617
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: say for finances, this is a big thing. I don't

618
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: think people talk about enough. If, for example, they say, oh,

619
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: you know what, I don't want you to work, you relax,

620
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to take care of you like I make

621
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: more money anyway. So just just stay home right like this,

622
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: You do what you need to do, you take care

623
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: of the house like it'll be fine. But now you

624
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: have to ask permission for even the smallest thing to buy,

625
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: you know, food at the grocery store or something. And

626
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: then it turns into you don't have your logins for

627
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: your bank account, you have no idea what assets you have,

628
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: you have no idea what investments you have. You don't

629
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: know what credit cards are out in your name. And

630
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: this is where a lot of times people will realize

631
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: after the relationships there's three four hundred thousand dollars in

632
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: debt in their name they knew nothing about. So there's

633
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: that financial control as well. So even though it may

634
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: seem like a relief that you don't have to worry

635
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: about your finances, if they really push for that, that's

636
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: a red.

637
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 4: Flag too well.

638
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 2: And that's when a lot of women are adventure hopped

639
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: too because they that's right, Yeah, they stay because they're

640
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: financially they're like they don't even know or anything. What

641
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: do you think are the biggest myths about narcissistic abuse?

642
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 4: The biggest myths.

643
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: That narcissists go for week weak people with low self esteem.

644
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: They actually don't. They go for very you know, strong, opinionated, successful, smart, confident,

645
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: you know, just people that are really are able to

646
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: carry themselves. Well, one because it looks good for them,

647
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: makes them feel good, but also it's it's a further

648
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: way for their you know, further way down to knock

649
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: them down. So if they start dating somebody that has

650
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: very low self esteem, they're not going to get as

651
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: much supply from that because they're already low, so it's further.

652
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 4: Knock them down.

653
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: So they usually go for people where they have more

654
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: access to to watch them fall essentially, So there's that myth.

655
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 4: I think people assume that they go for people who

656
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 4: are weak. That's not true. That's who they end up

657
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 4: after the abuse. When they get out of the relationship,

658
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 4: then they're a shell of who they used to be.

659
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 4: Then that that is true.

660
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: I think the other thing is that, you know, when

661
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: people say, well, why don't they just leave, I don't

662
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: think people understand that it's not a normal type of breakup.

663
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: It's not even just your standard runn of them all

664
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: toxic breakup. It's you know, there's a high risk for

665
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: violence when women leave, so that's a big reason why

666
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: they don't leave. The family court system is a nightmare,

667
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: and they're petrified that their ex is going to say

668
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: that they're crazy and take their kids from them, and

669
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: I see it happen so many times. It's it's gut

670
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: wrenching to watch, and they're very scared about that because

671
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: the narcisst will use the children as a pawn and.

672
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 4: Threaten, you know, threaten based on the kids. I'll take

673
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 4: the kids from you.

674
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: You'll never see them again. And then, as you said, finances,

675
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: they they feel trapped. So it's it's a myth that

676
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's why don't they just leave it?

677
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 4: You can?

678
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: And then I think the other myth is that couples

679
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: therapy works does not. It does not work with a narcissist.

680
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: So if you feel that you are with a narciss

681
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: if this is making sense to you, get your own therapy.

682
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: Therapy with a narcissist does not work, and I never

683
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: recommend it. M oh And the other last myth I'll

684
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: say is that they don't know what they're doing. They

685
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: absolutely know what they're doing. Some of their behaviors may

686
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: be out of habit because they're used to doing it,

687
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: but when brought to their attention, it doesn't stop them.

688
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 4: So they're very aware of what they're doing.

689
00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 3: How many how many people narcissists percentage a physically abusive.

690
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to say like seventy five. I mean,

691
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: I don't know many patients that I've had where that's

692
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 1: not the case.

693
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 4: It's pretty high. I mean, it's always the.

694
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: Coercive control, the emotional, the psychological abuse. The problem is

695
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: that it depending on how long the relationship goes for

696
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: the abuse gets worse. So if it wasn't physical for

697
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 1: like the first six years, seven years, it very well

698
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: still could become physical and.

699
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 4: Sexual as well. So it's hard to answer that, but

700
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 4: a lot, a lot.

701
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: You have two workbooks out Find Your Calm, so a

702
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 2: workbook to manage anxiety, and then a second one, Find

703
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: Good Habits for a workbook for daily growth. What is

704
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 2: your if to summarize kind of both of those your

705
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 2: best tips for managing like your number one tip for

706
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: managing anxiety and then also for just daily growth that

707
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 2: we can do into practice.

708
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, So for anxiety or any discomfort, you have to

709
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: sit with it. You have to sit with it and

710
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: feel it. You can't just talk about it. You can't

711
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: just try to change your thinking. You actually have to

712
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: sit with the discomfort. And their strategies obviously you can

713
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: use to not you know, so it's not torturous for you,

714
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: but mindfulness skills and things like that. And as far

715
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: as growth, I'm a big fan of behavioral approaches. I

716
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: think it's important to change your behavior first and then

717
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: you get a new experience and then as a result,

718
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,879
Speaker 1: it becomes less and less scary or less and less

719
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 1: anxiety provoking.

720
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 4: The key is starting really small.

721
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: So if your goal is to clean your house, I

722
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 1: want you to pick one room, and then I want

723
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 1: you to break the room in half.

724
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 4: And then I want you to pick one section and

725
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 4: that's what you do.

726
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: And I think that's really helpful because then you gain

727
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: a sense of mastery and it kind of gives you

728
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: that motivation to keep going.

729
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 2: What is the one thing you know when you when

730
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 2: you talk to your your patients that come in, what

731
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 2: do you see the most that people in this day

732
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: and age are are needing the most of? Like what

733
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 2: are what are they lacking the most that you want

734
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: to give them?

735
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: I think the biggest just validation that they're not that

736
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: they're not alone, that they're they're they're far from alone,

737
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: that there is light at the end of the tunnel,

738
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: that it's not all doom and gloom. That the fact

739
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: that they're here is a huge step. And it may

740
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: it may be a process, but you're here and you

741
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: can do this. I think that's the biggest thing, because

742
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: I think on social media we're so focused, you know,

743
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 1: myself included on these are the symptoms of this, this

744
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: is what this looks like, but there's not as much

745
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,959
Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, validation, I guess in a sense.

746
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 4: So I think that that's really important.

747
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: So that's really the first thing that I that I

748
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: go to is just letting them know that this is okay,

749
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: and this is normal and nothing's wrong with you.

750
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 4: None of this is your fault.

751
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, Or that they deserve it too, right, Yeah.

752
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 4: No, that they there's nothing in the world that they

753
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 4: did to even remotely deserve this. Nothing.

754
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: Sure, You've got a podcast called Nexte Narcissism Podcast. What

755
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: can listeners expect on on that?

756
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we I have a bunch of guests on

757
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,919
Speaker 1: who are very much involved in the field in terms

758
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,240
Speaker 1: of narcissistic abuse, course of control, family court, divorce, co parenting,

759
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: and then you know, we do episodes just on anxiety

760
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: and how to manage that.

761
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 4: And how to manage.

762
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 1: Trauma, how to kind of heal yourself after narcissistic abuse

763
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: and what that looks like.

764
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 3: Have you ever had Have you ever had a narcissist

765
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 3: on that you can delve into the mind and they

766
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 3: can tell you what they would do in certain situations

767
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 3: and how they operate. You've never had the one that's transpolent?

768
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 4: Is that no, because they won't they won't think anything wrong.

769
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 3: But I have.

770
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: I have been on a podcast where the very clearly

771
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: realized that the person was a narcissist, and it was

772
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: really difficult. So it's you get that that clinical kind

773
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: of feeling your stomach. And so I haven't I personally

774
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 1: haven't had anyone on or interviewed anyone, but I've definitely

775
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: been on.

776
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's definitely an odd conversation to have.

777
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 2: What's the percentage between women and men narcissists?

778
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: So technically more men than women, but I think it's

779
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: also a lot of women are misdiagnosed as having anxiety

780
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: and depression because narcissistic personality or looks a little bit

781
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 1: different in women. They use a lot more emotional manipulation, guilt, shame,

782
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: things like that. They look at even their kids. A

783
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: momth as like an extension of themselves that there's no

784
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: any time you try to kind of move towards autonomy,

785
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: you're considered this horrible child.

786
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 4: So it's more a lot of.

787
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: Emotional manipulation and just a ton of guilt. And you know,

788
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: for in marriage is kind of really taking financial abuse

789
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 1: to the next level, just spending no concern for you know,

790
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: any death that you're in no remorse. So if it

791
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: looks different, but there it's I would say men are

792
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:07,479
Speaker 1: a little higher.

793
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 4: Yeah.

794
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: Interesting, Okay, well, where can our listeners find you? And

795
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on too.

796
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, this was great. This is great.

797
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, my Instagram's doctors the psychologist and my website doctor

798
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: Jabisuckerman dot com.

799
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 2: Amazing. Thank you for coming on. We appreciate you. I'm

800
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 2: glad this is great.

801
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. Guys.

802
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 2: Thanks Jamie, you too.

803
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 3: Hi, It's really good to speak to people like that. Yeah,

804
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 3: I didn't know the nuts and bolts of what they're

805
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 3: dealing with, which is so important because we live in

806
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 3: a society in the world where people google things and

807
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 3: try and self diagnose, or people google things and try

808
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 3: and diagnose others. And abuse others or shame others and

809
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 3: to being something that they're not.

810
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.

811
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 3: She's shedding the light on real nacessary people don't even know.

812
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 3: I will deny that the narcissists. Where does you? And

813
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 3: I don't you worrying about me?

814
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 2: I'm always like, let's talk it out.

815
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 3: Let's like like the paruss try also, but also the

816
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 3: fact that people should be really careful label and labeling

817
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 3: other people narcissistic.

818
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,479
Speaker 2: The one I know why I've I've had a couple.

819
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:23,919
Speaker 2: I feel like I feel like I've had a couple.

820
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 2: I know one was like to a t the others.

821
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: You know, I think we're but I don't. It's not

822
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 2: that I would say it, but I don't feel like

823
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 2: there's no any point of being like, you're you're such

824
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 2: a narcissist because they don't already don't believe any of

825
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 2: the things that they've done in our relationship, So why

826
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: would I even waste my breath to say that there

827
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 2: are a certain situation or is a certain person or

828
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 2: this and the other. Because I'm like, That's why I'm

829
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 2: always saying with like co Parrington too, I'm like, you

830
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 2: think you're your ex is going to listen to you

831
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 2: now when they when you guys were at odds when

832
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 2: you were married and they didn't And you know, so

833
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, what is what is the even the point

834
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 2: of having a discussion like why don't you understand me? Well,

835
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 2: you didn't understand me or listen to me or have

836
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 2: empathy or care about those things when we are married,

837
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 2: So what like why even get into the argument post divorce?

838
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: You know, it's like and then so, and there's no

839
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 2: point of saying like you're a narcissist or you're a

840
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 2: you're a badness or that, because it's like, okay, like there,

841
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: they don't care. They don't care what you think or

842
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 2: or who they are because they're they're just who they are.

843
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 2: And and a lot of times, like you said, like

844
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 2: she was saying too, they can divorce to people you know,

845
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 2: they have their their mind's made up of who that

846
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: person is because of the situation that happened in a marriage.

847
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, also can like if you're if you're worn down

848
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 3: by something, you're in a relationship where you're worn down,

849
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 3: or you're in a situation where it could even be

850
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 3: a boss that's that's worn an employee then, and your

851
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 3: behaviors are the subject of you being worn down. That

852
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 3: can be perceived the some people's because your behaviors change

853
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 3: the world, that they're a narcissist. Yeah not, They'll just

854
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 3: them they're just a person that's worn down and doesn't

855
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 3: know how to doesn't know how to care anymore. So

856
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 3: we'll say what they want about regard the care for

857
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 3: the consequences because they're worn down and basically don't get

858
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 3: they'll beyond caring.

859
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean, even like you know, people that

860
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: have you know, would reach out and like, oh, they're

861
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 2: just be careful with this person because they were X,

862
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 2: Y and Z, and it's like, well, you guys also

863
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: might have just not worked well together too.

864
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I think that's more of a

865
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 3: what's that Facebook page called where people were? People go

866
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 3: on and.

867
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 2: Oh the are we dating the same person? Yea?

868
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 3: So those I think those people that go on there

869
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 3: take take the safety issue aside. Okay, if people are

870
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 3: warning something there like maybe this person isn't safe for

871
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 3: some sort of reason, okay, But I think the people

872
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 3: that go on there and try and ruin relationships for

873
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 3: others before it's even had a chance to flourish or

874
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 3: nutia are more narcissistic than the people that are actually

875
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 3: on there talking about because those people of the strategy

876
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 3: for trying to ruin a relationship or ruin someone's reputation

877
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 3: just because they had a bad experience.

878
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 2: Or that the person didn't like them back or something.

879
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, they feel okay, I feel rejecting. I'm I'm going

880
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 3: to go on this Facebook page and and talk about

881
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 3: someone that I didn't I didn't have a good experience

882
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 3: with just because they rejected me.

883
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 2: So I feel like they've had a lot of cheats

884
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: on there though some people that have you know, we're

885
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 2: dating the same dude at the same time.

886
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,720
Speaker 3: Some only no was on the modern around, this modern

887
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 3: world of social media and dating, and the lines are

888
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 3: blood now compared to what it used to be. Anyway,

889
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 3: back to back to NASAs, I thought she was great

890
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 3: on giving real clarity on yeah, on what people need

891
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 3: to look out for, a great red flagwise, but also

892
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 3: I think that's finally there's evens, there's evens fine lines

893
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 3: between like people just having a bad day and acting

894
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 3: like I guarantee you everyone that's listened to this will think, Okay,

895
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 3: one of those narcissistic traits. I've done that at one time,

896
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 3: but I behave like that. We all have.

897
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 2: But if you want more information, listen to her podcast.

898
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 2: Next up, Narcissism Podcast it Is with Jamie Zuckerman. Check

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00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 2: her out, see you next week