WEBVTT - The Department of Justice V Google Ads: Part 3 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:03.600 Also media. 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:09.520 Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host ed Zitron. 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:24.320 Once again, we are here to talk about the Department 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.400 of Justices case against Google Ads. Today, of course, I'm 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.320 joined by Jason Kint, the CEO of DCN. We've got 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.400 a special guest as well, Ariel Garcia, director of Intelligence 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:37.440 to ad Transparency nonprofit Check My Ads. Ariel, Jason, thank 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:40.879 you so much for joining me, Thanks for having us. Likewise, 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:44.120 so Aria, why don't you tell me a little bit 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:48.640 about the end of the Department of Justices case. Anything fun, 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.040 interesting or scandalous happened in the last week. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:55.240 Yeah, I will say it was definitely a markedly slower 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:57.760 week than it was last week. A lot of the 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.800 testimony that we heard was simply for the purpose of 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.679 getting exhibits into evidence, but there were a couple of 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.720 things that stood out. We started the week with Neil 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:10.720 Mohan and the big revelation. 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:12.160 There who is Neil Mohan? 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.920 Well, he is now CEO of YouTube, but he came 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:22.000 over with the Double Click acquisition, and so what one 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:24.479 of the big focus areas of his testimony was about 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:29.600 the ad meld Yield Manager acquisition, and we saw internal 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:33.319 decks where they were discussing whether or not to purchase 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:35.319 and a yield manager. 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:36.840 And what does that mean as well? 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:41.520 So it basically helped publishers optimize yield. Jason, you can 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:46.080 probably add more color to this than I can. Like, Okay, 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.560 now there is one important point. There's two kind of 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:54.080 component functionalities that ad meld had. One was the yield 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:59.160 management functionality and the other was real time bidding, right. 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.440 And just clear, yield management is managing the amount of 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:03.560 money you make from your ads. 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:06.840 Yeah, it is. Like I said, I'm not on the 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.639 publisher side, so I don't know that I've never worked 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:12.320 in one, but I can I can certainly talk Google ads. 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:17.239 But anyway, what Google did when it ultimately did buy 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:20.200 ad meld was kill the real time bidding bit. But 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:22.720 we'll get to that. So we see a deck where 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.880 they're debating whether a yield manager would be a good 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:29.760 investment to make, and it says in the deck that 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:34.320 their tech is irrelevant to Google. And then we see 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:36.680 that they paid I don't remember the exact number, but 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:40.040 I think it was like one hundred million over the valuation. 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:45.240 And before that, we see an internal exchange where Neil 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:47.320 says something to the effect of, well, we could just 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:49.360 buy it and park it somewhere. So they were upset 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:53.799 that yield managers were starting to gain traction. It ran 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:59.440 the risk of disintermediating DFP, and obviously that would cause 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:02.880 risk to revenue through add X, which was very, very 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:03.840 profitable for them. 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:06.760 So just break it down in simple terms for a 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:11.520 simpleton talking about myself here. So by killing off this product, 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:16.040 this yield management company, it means that they would stop 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:18.280 people being able to optimize how much they make. What 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:20.079 are the ramifications of doing this. 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.440 Well, remember that it came with the real time bidding 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:27.920 functionality as well. So what this was really about was 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:34.079 two things. It was to again protect their addex revenue, 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:40.240 but also to make sure that DFPS that double click 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.960 for publishers stays critical. And so what they did was 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:45.920 they took it in. They built in some of the 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:50.160 core yield management functionality into DFP. They integrated that, but 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:52.200 they got rid of real time bidding so that they 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:58.000 can keep you know, restricting and setting the rules for 0:03:58.040 --> 0:03:59.680 the auction on their side. 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.040 Oh, so they deliberately killed a useful product that they 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.480 owned as a means of as a means of making 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.120 the product worse so that they would make more money. 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:10.320 And they didn't kill it, they parked it. And then 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:13.560 we had Neil try to explain that park didn't really 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:15.760 mean what we all thought it meant. It just right 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:18.960 to continue to operate it status quo for now. 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:23.000 That classic word park that I use to refer to 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:27.640 operating something and using it. That's why it's called the 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.000 car park, and you drive on it exactly. 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.080 It's like, so we hear something else very similar. While 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.760 we're on that topic. The other one of the other 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:39.520 spicy things that happened was we heard from Jonathan Bellach yesterday. 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:43.920 He's another longtime now ex Google employee that came over 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:47.840 with the Double Click acquisition, and with him they were 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:52.240 talking about exchange bidding, which was basically the product that 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:58.800 Google launched to kill header bidding. And we see an 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:03.080 email about how their goal is to make exchange bidding 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:05.680 slightly better than header bidding. 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.440 So the deoder bidding is the open source at network approach. 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:14.520 That's correct, so well, not add network, but like header 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.920 bidding rapper, it allows them to bid without like Google 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.200 getting first looked. It enabled a fair auction, right. 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:22.920 Oh, Google will never have that then. 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:26.479 So what we see is that their goal was to 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:31.240 roll out a exchange bidding so that it's slightly better 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:36.000 than header bidding, and the DOJ asks, Uh, Bellak, why 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:40.599 slightly better? And he explains the context as his goal 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.120 was for his team to roll out a product that 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:48.839 is as much better than header bidding as possible, but 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:53.440 the direction from leadership was to scale it back to 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.120 only slightly better, And the DOJ asked him why that 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.200 is is it was it because they wanted to protect 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.039 the ad X revenue and he said something to the 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.919 effect of you're gonna have to ask leadership about that. 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:08.839 So that was another interesting one, right about how they 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:13.440 like intentionally. Oh and by this point they also mentioned 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:17.920 that header bidding innovation had continued and so by this 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.839 point exchange bidding would be inferior. Right, So that was 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:24.599 certainly interesting and also told like a bit of a 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:28.400 more nuanced story about the fact that even if the 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.640 product organization wanted to do right by their publisher customers, 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:33.400 they were hamstrung by leadership. 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:38.160 That's very good. I think that's what we say. It 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.440 does feel like this. I don't think there's any open 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.679 and shotcase and anything like this. But it does feel 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:48.360 like Google's egregiously taken the piss in a lot of this, 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.240 in a lot of these scenarios. That feels like there's 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.560 been a lot of testimony and discovery that's just them saying, 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.080 what if we made it so that no one else 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.160 could do this and we would make more money than 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:03.120 them through monopolis, Like it feels almost two on the nose. 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:06.159 Yeah, no, that's fair. And then I'll save my last 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.800 one big highlight that is one that not too many 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.760 other people are talking about, so I'm making sure to 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:17.080 talk about it all the time. So during Brian o'kelly's 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.760 deposition tape, he used to be CEO of Upnexus, now 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:25.440 he is CEO of Scope three. During the end of 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:30.160 his deposition tape, he talks about how pre Bid, which 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:32.680 is the open source thing that we were talking about 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.880 before kind of pre bid was brought to IAB tech 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:42.120 Lab that typically will govern like open source standards and 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:45.400 stuff like that. They wanted tech Lab to take over 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:51.120 the governance of the pre bid standards and IAB tech 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:56.960 Lab rejected it. Why because Google vehemently objected. Obviously they 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:01.360 were worried about the thread at post to them, and 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.520 so that's why Prebid became its own separate nonprofit. So 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:09.640 we also Brian flags that Google at the time at 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.560 least was the biggest financial contributor to IAB. 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:16.160 And what is IAB just for the. 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.960 Listeners Interactive Advertising Bureau. The tech Lab is a separate entity. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:25.640 To be clear, there is some overlapping governance, but I 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:29.000 just don't I know that there will be a barrage 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:31.640 of people that say they're separate. So I am acknowledging 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:35.680 they are separate entities, but there is overlapping governance. The 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.240 IAB Tech Lab has a lot of standards, like they 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:42.240 have the open RTV standards. IAB itself has its own 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.600 standards or frameworks that it oversees. But in terms of 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.840 like the technical standards, that's that's under the IB tech Lab. 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:51.800 So the the kind of like a professional association for 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:54.079 the ADS industry or did you ads? 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:58.120 Yeah, ads, ad tech, etcetera. I mean this one just 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:01.360 to jump in this one to be fair, I was 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.679 I was not in the courtroom when they read this 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:05.960 one in when they show this deposition, so I saw 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:08.880 the news report on it in at exchange, I think, 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.199 but you know this is a situation where app Nexus, 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:17.840 the largest independent ad tech company out there besides Google 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.959 at the time, you know, had this open source code 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:24.520 that they developed with other players to open up the 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:29.960 auctions and create a fair environment against Google. And the 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:33.160 report is and what Brian O'Kelly, the CEO, testified Undrowth 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:35.839 is that, yeah, that they had this and they want 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:37.960 to donate it to the industry. Right, So you got 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.320 this industry association that's supposed to be for the betterment 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:44.800 of the entire industry, and one company's interests weighed in 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.560 heavier than the rest of the entire industry, which is, 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:50.079 you know, a very clear symptom of the problem we're 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:53.000 talking through in all these lawsuits, right, is that one 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.040 company's interests outweigh everybody else and they just continue to 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:58.760 gain more and more market share. So it's very that's 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.920 very concerning. I didn't shed like good light on IAB either, frankly. 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.800 So it feels like we are at this point in 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.520 the ads industry where things are. If Google is broken 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:10.840 up in the way they're suggesting, it's going to have 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:14.480 more ramifications than just for Google. It feels like there 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:18.920 are organizational shifts that will have to happen as a result. 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:21.600 That's right, those who have aligned with them at. 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:23.840 Least, that's right. And I think in a moment like this, 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:26.760 because we are geting you this moment frankly between the 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.320 search opinion and now this trial where it seems to 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:34.679 be headed, sometimes it's hard to think through what this 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:38.280 means and the collateral damage, and people worry about the negative, 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.320 but it also creates a lot of opportunity, right, and 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:43.800 so it unlocks and creates oxygen for everybody. And that's 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:45.200 that's the that's the fun part. 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.800 So have we had anything more about Jedi Blue, Jedi Blue, 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:51.480 the Facebook Google deal? The is a big deal or 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.400 isn't a big deal, depending on who you ask. 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:56.560 I looked at Texas and Q one him next year. 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:00.319 That is that where the suits are happening. 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:02.280 That's where the state ag suit is, and that's where 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:06.160 they were able to depose so Narbashi and they were 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:09.680 able to depose the Facebook witness. It's come up in 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:14.439 a few different ways and its it continues even today 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.280 where you know where they are trying to bring Facebook 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.560 in as a competitor in this relevant market that this 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.560 suits all about. And you start to it's the threat 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.720 of Facebook coming into the market. But the rest of 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.360 that story is that Facebook didn't really come into the 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.320 market because they had a sweetheart deal with Google to 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:34.320 not come into the market, right, And so we're not 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:36.079 telling the rest of the story right now, And I 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.520 think it's because the US Department maybe doesn't need to 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.360 tell the whole story. They already have enough. But but 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:42.720 I don't know if you have a different read aerial. 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.959 No, I think that's right. I mean, you're exactly right 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.880 that it came up like once, But I also agree 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:54.840 that's part of the contortion that they're doing. Then the 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:56.760 other part of the contortion is still like the market 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:59.960 definition contortion. Like just just today, at the very end, 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.920 and they were they were going through we started to 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:10.839 hear from a Microsoft employee Beneezer, I'm bla. I think 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.560 it was is it Ben Jon? That's it was Ben Jon, 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:20.200 And they were talking about how Xander had helped Microsoft 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.560 gain a foothold in ad tech. But if you actually 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.840 read the document's Google was pointing us to, it was 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:31.000 talking about how Xander invested in video. So we're still ignoring, 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:35.560 we're still ignoring the display market. And they're like systematic 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:38.160 control of it. They're just kind of pointing to all 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.560 of the other areas that that they that they haven't 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.640 yet taken completely over just yet. 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:56.480 Well that kind of leads us to the next part. 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.959 So it sounds like that we're recording Friday, September twentye 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.719 My iPhone has still not arrived. So Google is now 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.679 on the stand. So walk me through it, jas, wonn't 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:06.679 you stont sure? 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.600 So they bring up their first witness, who we don't 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:11.520 know a lot about because he seems to have disappeared 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.920 off the internet, but he's been there for nearly two 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.200 decades and he's one of the few people that didn't 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:21.720 leave when the lawsuit was filed. And you know, most 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:26.920 of the Google led defense, the Google attorneys were focused on, 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:31.040 I think two things. One was having him draw out 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:35.080 on a visual the entire ad tech supply chain and 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:39.400 all of Google's components of it, which you know, at 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.120 first seemed to seem like a good strategy to kind 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:45.880 of confuse the room and the judge, but I think 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.080 at the end of the day it was more annoying, 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.240 and it actually it just showed that they were all 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:55.760 over the entire marketplace, right and so it was just 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.240 a lot of smoking mirrors. And then the other piece 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.520 was to try to bring in this element of all 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:07.840 these different products serve other types of advertising, be it video, 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:14.160 be it app advertising, be it native advertising in stream, 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.440 and so all these different things that are not actually 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.280 part of this case, to try to make advertising a 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:23.120 larger market than it really is, to make Google look 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:25.680 less of a major player. Right, so if you can 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:28.560 actually bring in Facebook and TikTok, or you can bring 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:33.640 in Netflix advertising for video, then suddenly Google's not such 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.320 a big player, right. But it just didn't It didn't work. 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:41.560 And when the Justice Department followed up, they actually just 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.080 pulled up an email from this witness where he actually 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.960 went through and talked about their business in those exact ways, 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:51.720 and it really negated everything he had testified. And and 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:55.200 you know, there are a couple kind of elements of 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.960 the judge also seeming to get a little bit annoyed 0:14:58.040 --> 0:14:59.120 and kind of ready to move on. 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:04.440 So but oh yeah, yeah, it also doesn't seem like 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:09.400 their defense is any good. It's really it's just very 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.040 weird because the Search trial, they were all piss and vinegar, 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.520 They were like ready to rumble. This one, they're coming 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.480 in They're like, well, look this is what we got. 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.880 Our first witness, who you will see has emailed literally 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:24.040 what we're going to claim. He isn't saying. It's just weird, 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:26.360 like they just seem almost discombobulated. 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.840 Yeah, it felt this is their first witness, right, so 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.680 they needed to start strong. It did not. It was 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.920 not It wasn't strong. And then I mean towards the end, 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:40.560 just to kind of give the highlights, the two things 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.720 happened one and this is when Google's attorney was up, 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.760 but she wanted to bring up some more recent things, 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.000 right like the trade desk one of the companies they 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:54.880 compete with their earnings from last month. She wanted to 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:56.880 bring up something from the earnings last month, which is, 0:15:57.400 --> 0:15:59.640 you know, a year after Discovery had closed. Like this, 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:02.400 it's not you know, it's like a very clear objection 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:02.920 for the justice. 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:04.720 And that's yeah, that's like something you kind of just 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:05.200 kind of. 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:09.160 Keeping like exhibit. It's non exhibit. It's never been you know, 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:11.400 asked about, it wasn't part of the deposition. It's literally 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.400 from a month ago. And they wanted to bring up 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.360 a deal that they've done with Twitter from the last 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.360 few months, right, And so the judge was like, you 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.360 know this stuff is not you know, it's too early. 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.400 She said something like, plus it's tainted, like once all 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.200 the lawsuits started being filed, like all this stuff is tainted, 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:30.880 you're giving me And so that was interesting. And then 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:33.920 she said, and you're also talking about this entire ad 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.520 tech ecosystem and that feels more like something for remedies 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.680 rather than liability. So she was saying, like, let's talk 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:42.760 about this when we start to break you up, or. 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:45.600 We won't come back to this. 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:48.480 We'll come back to this when we So everybody in 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:50.080 the court kind of looked at each other and made 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.920 their notes. But I know at the same time, you know, 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:55.800 I don't know if that's definitely a leading in care 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:57.760 where she's going, but it got our attention. 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:04.159 So have you have you seen anything solid from Google? Like, 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:08.200 have they had any wins so far? No? 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:13.760 Like, it sounds like it sounds like I am saying 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.040 that because I want to believe it and not because no. 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:18.600 No, I truly don't think you like that. I wouldn't 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.000 bring anyone on who is just like we. I may 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.720 want them to lose, but I want them to lose properly. 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:28.520 Yeah, no, since sincerely they do not have a strong argument. 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:32.040 The fact that their their first witness landed with the 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:36.840 judge as though they were trying to basically say, well, 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:39.439 wouldn't it be like super complicated to blow us up 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.560 if that's your best argument, like what you know? And 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:47.240 then the fact that that that again first witness, and 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:49.280 it felt a little bit like they were resorting to 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:52.719 tricks and bringing in documents that weren't part of discovery 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.280 and that that haven't been asked about. It's not, it 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:58.840 just wasn't. It was not a strong way to start. 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:06.080 They also their their ad Tech spaghetti football situation. The 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.280 d o J went up there and they're like, okay, can. 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:09.359 You explain what that is? 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:14.280 Okay, so it was that was the judge's description. So cool. 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:23.119 So they bring up a gray oval on on the screen, 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.600 like a ball shaped oval, and then they ask him 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.760 to start mapping out the ecosystem and he puts they 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.560 put ad Tech ecosystem at the top. They put like 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:36.280 buy side on the right, uh, cell side on the left, 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:41.960 and then he starts populating it with with Google products first, 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.199 and it's all Google products. So it's like okay, like, 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.080 let's start with search and O and O and then 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:52.119 like like they golled ad sense for content, ad sense 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:54.359 for search. They go in order and they explain the 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.399 history of why they're absolutely everywhere, and then like there's 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:00.280 so now by this point and they met they draw 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.320 lines connecting everything. So at this point it's a mangled 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:10.520 mess of Google logos and unnamed alleged competitors Like so 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:12.840 it was, Yeah, it was like a big bowl of 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:15.960 ad tech spaghetti where Google is the is the meat 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:20.480 balls absolutely everywhere and some competitor flex are in there 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:23.000 a seasoning. It was, it was, And then the DOJ 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:25.399 gets up and they're like, first of all, we need 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:27.560 to preserve this because we're going to come back to it. 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:28.560 So they preserve that. 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:29.639 Thank you. 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:31.360 The way the. 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:34.399 Gets up and they're like, okay, so if if if 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:36.840 I am a publisher, if I'm Wall Street Journal and 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.720 i want to sell ad inventory on my website and 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:43.800 not and I'm not on my app, right, will search 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:45.960 help me do that? We'll ad center search help me 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:48.000 do that. And they go down the list one by one, 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:53.800 removing the things that do not help them monetize display 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:57.800 ad space on their website and we get to basically 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:03.040 exactly where the OJ's complaint started, with the exception of 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.440 because he was on the cell side, they didn't touch 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:08.120 the DSP like they left DV three or or they 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:12.160 got exhausted with them with this, but but we got 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:16.000 to exactly why, Like to me, it actually would this 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:18.840 was the best way to explain to the judge why 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:22.199 their complaint outline the markets that it did. So in 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:27.480 my view it kind of completely horribly backfires published anywhere. 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:32.960 The spaghetti will yet the monstrative football I should say 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:37.040 food was a was a theme today because even with 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:40.159 the first witness this morning, who was the expert the 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.080 last expert for the DJEE. 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.919 Yeah, and Google was really trying to confuse the judge 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:49.200 and confuse him and he was really sharp and did 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.520 not fall for a lot of things that they tried 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.320 to get to bite on. But well, bad pun. Sorry, 0:20:54.480 --> 0:21:00.600 but but Google's attorney was bringing up trying to bring 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:03.520 up product differentiation, I think, and I think was at 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:05.840 the time was trying to explain why they charged twenty 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:09.040 percent for their att exchange for the last decade while 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:12.120 everyone else charges a lower rate and why they could 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:14.480 justify this higher price and it wasn't just because of 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:19.320 monopoly maintenance, and so he was talking about differentiating higher 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:21.919 value from lower value. I think so he brought up 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:24.240 like he was. Well, first he brought up I think 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:27.480 chips and gasoline at gas stations, but then he brought 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:31.159 up the Whopper versus the Big Mac, and then he 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:33.399 brought up coke ver Stepsi and the judge at some 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:36.360 point interrupted and said, you must be really hungry this morning, so. 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:38.720 You don't need the judge saying stuff like that. 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:42.159 It's not it was. I think she was amused. She 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:44.640 was trying to bring fun to ad tech after ten 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:48.480 days of watching Google get tortured. So he also did. 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:53.360 Not Chiquita bananas versus I'm like, nice, Well, at least 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:55.879 today instead of comparing apples to oranges, they're going to 0:21:55.920 --> 0:22:00.640 do bananas to bananas. So it's progressed Jesus. 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:04.160 So what is Google's argument? What is that actual? 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:09.800 They just lost on market definition, They've lost on you know, 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:13.160 they lost on confusing the judge. I think I think 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:15.600 they're down to the maybe the two sets. It's this 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:17.960 MX case of two side and market versus if it's 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:21.080 one market, the whole thing versus individual markets. But I 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:23.359 don't everybody talk to doesn't think they have a prayer 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:24.560 there can you woke me through it? 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:28.120 Despite its flimsiness. 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:30.720 Well, one, I'm not an expert on the MX Supreme 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:33.480 Court case. But if you think about a credit card 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:37.200 transaction where on both sides it happens all at once, 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:43.760 then there is a case that went Spring Court. I 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:48.920 think it was Ohio versus I think it's OOMX. I'm 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.720 now outside of my boundary, but this idea that it's 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:57.200 a single market and both parties are transacting together at 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:01.320 the same moment versus this is a market. There's clearly 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:03.879