1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host ed Zitron. 3 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 2: Once again, we are here to talk about the Department 4 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: of Justices case against Google Ads. Today, of course, I'm 5 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 2: joined by Jason Kint, the CEO of DCN. We've got 6 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 2: a special guest as well, Ariel Garcia, director of Intelligence 7 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: to ad Transparency nonprofit Check My Ads. Ariel, Jason, thank 8 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 2: you so much for joining me, Thanks for having us. Likewise, 9 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: so Aria, why don't you tell me a little bit 10 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: about the end of the Department of Justices case. Anything fun, 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 2: interesting or scandalous happened in the last week. 12 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say it was definitely a markedly slower 13 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: week than it was last week. A lot of the 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: testimony that we heard was simply for the purpose of 15 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: getting exhibits into evidence, but there were a couple of 16 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: things that stood out. We started the week with Neil 17 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: Mohan and the big revelation. 18 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: There who is Neil Mohan? 19 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: Well, he is now CEO of YouTube, but he came 20 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: over with the Double Click acquisition, and so what one 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: of the big focus areas of his testimony was about 22 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: the ad meld Yield Manager acquisition, and we saw internal 23 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: decks where they were discussing whether or not to purchase 24 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: and a yield manager. 25 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 2: And what does that mean as well? 26 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: So it basically helped publishers optimize yield. Jason, you can 27 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: probably add more color to this than I can. Like, Okay, 28 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: now there is one important point. There's two kind of 29 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: component functionalities that ad meld had. One was the yield 30 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: management functionality and the other was real time bidding, right. 31 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 2: And just clear, yield management is managing the amount of 32 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 2: money you make from your ads. 33 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. Like I said, I'm not on the 34 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: publisher side, so I don't know that I've never worked 35 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: in one, but I can I can certainly talk Google ads. 36 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 1: But anyway, what Google did when it ultimately did buy 37 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: ad meld was kill the real time bidding bit. But 38 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: we'll get to that. So we see a deck where 39 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: they're debating whether a yield manager would be a good 40 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: investment to make, and it says in the deck that 41 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: their tech is irrelevant to Google. And then we see 42 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: that they paid I don't remember the exact number, but 43 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: I think it was like one hundred million over the valuation. 44 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: And before that, we see an internal exchange where Neil 45 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: says something to the effect of, well, we could just 46 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: buy it and park it somewhere. So they were upset 47 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 1: that yield managers were starting to gain traction. It ran 48 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: the risk of disintermediating DFP, and obviously that would cause 49 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: risk to revenue through add X, which was very, very 50 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: profitable for them. 51 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 2: So just break it down in simple terms for a 52 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: simpleton talking about myself here. So by killing off this product, 53 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 2: this yield management company, it means that they would stop 54 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: people being able to optimize how much they make. What 55 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 2: are the ramifications of doing this. 56 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: Well, remember that it came with the real time bidding 57 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: functionality as well. So what this was really about was 58 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: two things. It was to again protect their addex revenue, 59 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: but also to make sure that DFPS that double click 60 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: for publishers stays critical. And so what they did was 61 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: they took it in. They built in some of the 62 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: core yield management functionality into DFP. They integrated that, but 63 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: they got rid of real time bidding so that they 64 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: can keep you know, restricting and setting the rules for 65 00:03:58,040 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: the auction on their side. 66 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 2: Oh, so they deliberately killed a useful product that they 67 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: owned as a means of as a means of making 68 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: the product worse so that they would make more money. 69 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 3: And they didn't kill it, they parked it. And then 70 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 3: we had Neil try to explain that park didn't really 71 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 3: mean what we all thought it meant. It just right 72 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 3: to continue to operate it status quo for now. 73 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: That classic word park that I use to refer to 74 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: operating something and using it. That's why it's called the 75 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: car park, and you drive on it exactly. 76 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: It's like, so we hear something else very similar. While 77 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: we're on that topic. The other one of the other 78 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: spicy things that happened was we heard from Jonathan Bellach yesterday. 79 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: He's another longtime now ex Google employee that came over 80 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: with the Double Click acquisition, and with him they were 81 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: talking about exchange bidding, which was basically the product that 82 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: Google launched to kill header bidding. And we see an 83 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: email about how their goal is to make exchange bidding 84 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: slightly better than header bidding. 85 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 2: So the deoder bidding is the open source at network approach. 86 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: That's correct, so well, not add network, but like header 87 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: bidding rapper, it allows them to bid without like Google 88 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: getting first looked. It enabled a fair auction, right. 89 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 2: Oh, Google will never have that then. 90 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: So what we see is that their goal was to 91 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: roll out a exchange bidding so that it's slightly better 92 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: than header bidding, and the DOJ asks, Uh, Bellak, why 93 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: slightly better? And he explains the context as his goal 94 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: was for his team to roll out a product that 95 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: is as much better than header bidding as possible, but 96 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: the direction from leadership was to scale it back to 97 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: only slightly better, And the DOJ asked him why that 98 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: is is it was it because they wanted to protect 99 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: the ad X revenue and he said something to the 100 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 1: effect of you're gonna have to ask leadership about that. 101 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: So that was another interesting one, right about how they 102 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: like intentionally. Oh and by this point they also mentioned 103 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: that header bidding innovation had continued and so by this 104 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: point exchange bidding would be inferior. Right, So that was 105 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: certainly interesting and also told like a bit of a 106 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: more nuanced story about the fact that even if the 107 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: product organization wanted to do right by their publisher customers, 108 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: they were hamstrung by leadership. 109 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 2: That's very good. I think that's what we say. It 110 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: does feel like this. I don't think there's any open 111 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,679 Speaker 2: and shotcase and anything like this. But it does feel 112 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 2: like Google's egregiously taken the piss in a lot of this, 113 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: in a lot of these scenarios. That feels like there's 114 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 2: been a lot of testimony and discovery that's just them saying, 115 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 2: what if we made it so that no one else 116 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 2: could do this and we would make more money than 117 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 2: them through monopolis, Like it feels almost two on the nose. 118 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's fair. And then I'll save my last 119 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: one big highlight that is one that not too many 120 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: other people are talking about, so I'm making sure to 121 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: talk about it all the time. So during Brian o'kelly's 122 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: deposition tape, he used to be CEO of Upnexus, now 123 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: he is CEO of Scope three. During the end of 124 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: his deposition tape, he talks about how pre Bid, which 125 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: is the open source thing that we were talking about 126 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: before kind of pre bid was brought to IAB tech 127 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: Lab that typically will govern like open source standards and 128 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: stuff like that. They wanted tech Lab to take over 129 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: the governance of the pre bid standards and IAB tech 130 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: Lab rejected it. Why because Google vehemently objected. Obviously they 131 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: were worried about the thread at post to them, and 132 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: so that's why Prebid became its own separate nonprofit. So 133 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: we also Brian flags that Google at the time at 134 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: least was the biggest financial contributor to IAB. 135 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: And what is IAB just for the. 136 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: Listeners Interactive Advertising Bureau. The tech Lab is a separate entity. 137 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: To be clear, there is some overlapping governance, but I 138 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: just don't I know that there will be a barrage 139 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: of people that say they're separate. So I am acknowledging 140 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: they are separate entities, but there is overlapping governance. The 141 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: IAB Tech Lab has a lot of standards, like they 142 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: have the open RTV standards. IAB itself has its own 143 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: standards or frameworks that it oversees. But in terms of 144 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: like the technical standards, that's that's under the IB tech Lab. 145 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 2: So the the kind of like a professional association for 146 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 2: the ADS industry or did you ads? 147 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, ads, ad tech, etcetera. I mean this one just 148 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 3: to jump in this one to be fair, I was 149 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 3: I was not in the courtroom when they read this 150 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 3: one in when they show this deposition, so I saw 151 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 3: the news report on it in at exchange, I think, 152 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 3: but you know this is a situation where app Nexus, 153 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 3: the largest independent ad tech company out there besides Google 154 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,959 Speaker 3: at the time, you know, had this open source code 155 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 3: that they developed with other players to open up the 156 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 3: auctions and create a fair environment against Google. And the 157 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: report is and what Brian O'Kelly, the CEO, testified Undrowth 158 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 3: is that, yeah, that they had this and they want 159 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 3: to donate it to the industry. Right, So you got 160 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 3: this industry association that's supposed to be for the betterment 161 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 3: of the entire industry, and one company's interests weighed in 162 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 3: heavier than the rest of the entire industry, which is, 163 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 3: you know, a very clear symptom of the problem we're 164 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 3: talking through in all these lawsuits, right, is that one 165 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 3: company's interests outweigh everybody else and they just continue to 166 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 3: gain more and more market share. So it's very that's 167 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: very concerning. I didn't shed like good light on IAB either, frankly. 168 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 2: So it feels like we are at this point in 169 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 2: the ads industry where things are. If Google is broken 170 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: up in the way they're suggesting, it's going to have 171 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: more ramifications than just for Google. It feels like there 172 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 2: are organizational shifts that will have to happen as a result. 173 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: That's right, those who have aligned with them at. 174 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 3: Least, that's right. And I think in a moment like this, 175 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 3: because we are geting you this moment frankly between the 176 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 3: search opinion and now this trial where it seems to 177 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 3: be headed, sometimes it's hard to think through what this 178 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 3: means and the collateral damage, and people worry about the negative, 179 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 3: but it also creates a lot of opportunity, right, and 180 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 3: so it unlocks and creates oxygen for everybody. And that's 181 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 3: that's the that's the fun part. 182 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: So have we had anything more about Jedi Blue, Jedi Blue, 183 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: the Facebook Google deal? The is a big deal or 184 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: isn't a big deal, depending on who you ask. 185 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 3: I looked at Texas and Q one him next year. 186 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 2: That is that where the suits are happening. 187 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 3: That's where the state ag suit is, and that's where 188 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 3: they were able to depose so Narbashi and they were 189 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 3: able to depose the Facebook witness. It's come up in 190 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 3: a few different ways and its it continues even today 191 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 3: where you know where they are trying to bring Facebook 192 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 3: in as a competitor in this relevant market that this 193 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 3: suits all about. And you start to it's the threat 194 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 3: of Facebook coming into the market. But the rest of 195 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 3: that story is that Facebook didn't really come into the 196 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 3: market because they had a sweetheart deal with Google to 197 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 3: not come into the market, right, And so we're not 198 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 3: telling the rest of the story right now, And I 199 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 3: think it's because the US Department maybe doesn't need to 200 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 3: tell the whole story. They already have enough. But but 201 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 3: I don't know if you have a different read aerial. 202 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,959 Speaker 1: No, I think that's right. I mean, you're exactly right 203 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: that it came up like once, But I also agree 204 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: that's part of the contortion that they're doing. Then the 205 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: other part of the contortion is still like the market 206 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: definition contortion. Like just just today, at the very end, 207 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: and they were they were going through we started to 208 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 1: hear from a Microsoft employee Beneezer, I'm bla. I think 209 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: it was is it Ben Jon? That's it was Ben Jon, 210 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: And they were talking about how Xander had helped Microsoft 211 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: gain a foothold in ad tech. But if you actually 212 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: read the document's Google was pointing us to, it was 213 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: talking about how Xander invested in video. So we're still ignoring, 214 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: we're still ignoring the display market. And they're like systematic 215 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: control of it. They're just kind of pointing to all 216 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: of the other areas that that they that they haven't 217 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: yet taken completely over just yet. 218 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 2: Well that kind of leads us to the next part. 219 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 2: So it sounds like that we're recording Friday, September twentye 220 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 2: My iPhone has still not arrived. So Google is now 221 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 2: on the stand. So walk me through it, jas, wonn't 222 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 2: you stont sure? 223 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 3: So they bring up their first witness, who we don't 224 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 3: know a lot about because he seems to have disappeared 225 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 3: off the internet, but he's been there for nearly two 226 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 3: decades and he's one of the few people that didn't 227 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 3: leave when the lawsuit was filed. And you know, most 228 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 3: of the Google led defense, the Google attorneys were focused on, 229 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 3: I think two things. One was having him draw out 230 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 3: on a visual the entire ad tech supply chain and 231 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 3: all of Google's components of it, which you know, at 232 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 3: first seemed to seem like a good strategy to kind 233 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 3: of confuse the room and the judge, but I think 234 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 3: at the end of the day it was more annoying, 235 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 3: and it actually it just showed that they were all 236 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 3: over the entire marketplace, right and so it was just 237 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 3: a lot of smoking mirrors. And then the other piece 238 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 3: was to try to bring in this element of all 239 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 3: these different products serve other types of advertising, be it video, 240 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 3: be it app advertising, be it native advertising in stream, 241 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 3: and so all these different things that are not actually 242 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 3: part of this case, to try to make advertising a 243 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 3: larger market than it really is, to make Google look 244 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 3: less of a major player. Right, so if you can 245 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 3: actually bring in Facebook and TikTok, or you can bring 246 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 3: in Netflix advertising for video, then suddenly Google's not such 247 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 3: a big player, right. But it just didn't It didn't work. 248 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 3: And when the Justice Department followed up, they actually just 249 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 3: pulled up an email from this witness where he actually 250 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 3: went through and talked about their business in those exact ways, 251 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 3: and it really negated everything he had testified. And and 252 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 3: you know, there are a couple kind of elements of 253 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 3: the judge also seeming to get a little bit annoyed 254 00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 3: and kind of ready to move on. 255 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 2: So but oh yeah, yeah, it also doesn't seem like 256 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 2: their defense is any good. It's really it's just very 257 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: weird because the Search trial, they were all piss and vinegar, 258 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 2: They were like ready to rumble. This one, they're coming 259 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: in They're like, well, look this is what we got. 260 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 2: Our first witness, who you will see has emailed literally 261 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 2: what we're going to claim. He isn't saying. It's just weird, 262 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 2: like they just seem almost discombobulated. 263 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, it felt this is their first witness, right, so 264 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 3: they needed to start strong. It did not. It was 265 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 3: not It wasn't strong. And then I mean towards the end, 266 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 3: just to kind of give the highlights, the two things 267 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 3: happened one and this is when Google's attorney was up, 268 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 3: but she wanted to bring up some more recent things, 269 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 3: right like the trade desk one of the companies they 270 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 3: compete with their earnings from last month. She wanted to 271 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 3: bring up something from the earnings last month, which is, 272 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 3: you know, a year after Discovery had closed. Like this, 273 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 3: it's not you know, it's like a very clear objection 274 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 3: for the justice. 275 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 2: And that's yeah, that's like something you kind of just 276 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: kind of. 277 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 3: Keeping like exhibit. It's non exhibit. It's never been you know, 278 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 3: asked about, it wasn't part of the deposition. It's literally 279 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 3: from a month ago. And they wanted to bring up 280 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 3: a deal that they've done with Twitter from the last 281 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 3: few months, right, And so the judge was like, you 282 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 3: know this stuff is not you know, it's too early. 283 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 3: She said something like, plus it's tainted, like once all 284 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 3: the lawsuits started being filed, like all this stuff is tainted, 285 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 3: you're giving me And so that was interesting. And then 286 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 3: she said, and you're also talking about this entire ad 287 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 3: tech ecosystem and that feels more like something for remedies 288 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 3: rather than liability. So she was saying, like, let's talk 289 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 3: about this when we start to break you up, or. 290 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 2: We won't come back to this. 291 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 3: We'll come back to this when we So everybody in 292 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 3: the court kind of looked at each other and made 293 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 3: their notes. But I know at the same time, you know, 294 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 3: I don't know if that's definitely a leading in care 295 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 3: where she's going, but it got our attention. 296 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 2: So have you have you seen anything solid from Google? Like, 297 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 2: have they had any wins so far? No? 298 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: Like, it sounds like it sounds like I am saying 299 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: that because I want to believe it and not because no. 300 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: No, I truly don't think you like that. I wouldn't 301 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 2: bring anyone on who is just like we. I may 302 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 2: want them to lose, but I want them to lose properly. 303 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, since sincerely they do not have a strong argument. 304 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: The fact that their their first witness landed with the 305 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: judge as though they were trying to basically say, well, 306 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: wouldn't it be like super complicated to blow us up 307 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: if that's your best argument, like what you know? And 308 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: then the fact that that that again first witness, and 309 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: it felt a little bit like they were resorting to 310 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,719 Speaker 1: tricks and bringing in documents that weren't part of discovery 311 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: and that that haven't been asked about. It's not, it 312 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: just wasn't. It was not a strong way to start. 313 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: They also their their ad Tech spaghetti football situation. The 314 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: d o J went up there and they're like, okay, can. 315 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: You explain what that is? 316 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 3: Okay, so it was that was the judge's description. So cool. 317 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: So they bring up a gray oval on on the screen, 318 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: like a ball shaped oval, and then they ask him 319 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: to start mapping out the ecosystem and he puts they 320 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: put ad Tech ecosystem at the top. They put like 321 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: buy side on the right, uh, cell side on the left, 322 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: and then he starts populating it with with Google products first, 323 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: and it's all Google products. So it's like okay, like, 324 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: let's start with search and O and O and then 325 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: like like they golled ad sense for content, ad sense 326 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: for search. They go in order and they explain the 327 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: history of why they're absolutely everywhere, and then like there's 328 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: so now by this point and they met they draw 329 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: lines connecting everything. So at this point it's a mangled 330 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: mess of Google logos and unnamed alleged competitors Like so 331 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: it was, Yeah, it was like a big bowl of 332 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: ad tech spaghetti where Google is the is the meat 333 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: balls absolutely everywhere and some competitor flex are in there 334 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: a seasoning. It was, it was, And then the DOJ 335 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: gets up and they're like, first of all, we need 336 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: to preserve this because we're going to come back to it. 337 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: So they preserve that. 338 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 3: Thank you. 339 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 2: The way the. 340 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: Gets up and they're like, okay, so if if if 341 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: I am a publisher, if I'm Wall Street Journal and 342 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: i want to sell ad inventory on my website and 343 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: not and I'm not on my app, right, will search 344 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: help me do that? We'll ad center search help me 345 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: do that. And they go down the list one by one, 346 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: removing the things that do not help them monetize display 347 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: ad space on their website and we get to basically 348 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: exactly where the OJ's complaint started, with the exception of 349 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: because he was on the cell side, they didn't touch 350 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: the DSP like they left DV three or or they 351 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: got exhausted with them with this, but but we got 352 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: to exactly why, Like to me, it actually would this 353 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: was the best way to explain to the judge why 354 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 1: their complaint outline the markets that it did. So in 355 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: my view it kind of completely horribly backfires published anywhere. 356 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 4: The spaghetti will yet the monstrative football I should say 357 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 4: food was a was a theme today because even with 358 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 4: the first witness this morning, who was the expert the 359 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 4: last expert for the DJEE. 360 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, and Google was really trying to confuse the judge 361 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 3: and confuse him and he was really sharp and did 362 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 3: not fall for a lot of things that they tried 363 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 3: to get to bite on. But well, bad pun. Sorry, 364 00:20:54,480 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 3: but but Google's attorney was bringing up trying to bring 365 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 3: up product differentiation, I think, and I think was at 366 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 3: the time was trying to explain why they charged twenty 367 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 3: percent for their att exchange for the last decade while 368 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 3: everyone else charges a lower rate and why they could 369 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 3: justify this higher price and it wasn't just because of 370 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 3: monopoly maintenance, and so he was talking about differentiating higher 371 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 3: value from lower value. I think so he brought up 372 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 3: like he was. Well, first he brought up I think 373 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 3: chips and gasoline at gas stations, but then he brought 374 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 3: up the Whopper versus the Big Mac, and then he 375 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 3: brought up coke ver Stepsi and the judge at some 376 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 3: point interrupted and said, you must be really hungry this morning, so. 377 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 2: You don't need the judge saying stuff like that. 378 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 3: It's not it was. I think she was amused. She 379 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 3: was trying to bring fun to ad tech after ten 380 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 3: days of watching Google get tortured. So he also did. 381 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 1: Not Chiquita bananas versus I'm like, nice, Well, at least 382 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: today instead of comparing apples to oranges, they're going to 383 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: do bananas to bananas. So it's progressed Jesus. 384 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 2: So what is Google's argument? What is that actual? 385 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 3: They just lost on market definition, They've lost on you know, 386 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 3: they lost on confusing the judge. I think I think 387 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 3: they're down to the maybe the two sets. It's this 388 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 3: MX case of two side and market versus if it's 389 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 3: one market, the whole thing versus individual markets. But I 390 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 3: don't everybody talk to doesn't think they have a prayer 391 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 3: there can you woke me through it? 392 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 2: Despite its flimsiness. 393 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 3: Well, one, I'm not an expert on the MX Supreme 394 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 3: Court case. But if you think about a credit card 395 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 3: transaction where on both sides it happens all at once, 396 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 3: then there is a case that went Spring Court. I 397 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 3: think it was Ohio versus I think it's OOMX. I'm 398 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 3: now outside of my boundary, but this idea that it's 399 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 3: a single market and both parties are transacting together at 400 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 3: the same moment versus this is a market. There's clearly 401 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 3: a byside, clearly a cult side, there's different actors on 402 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 3: both sides, and there are companies that you know, a 403 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 3: couple of companies that participate in multiple places just they 404 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 3: can't really compete. So it's it's very different than a 405 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 3: single credit card transaction. 406 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: If it makes also, no, I'm pretty stupid, but something 407 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 2: obvious here seems to be that doesn't google bit at 408 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 2: the beginning and the end of the auction. It's right, 409 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 2: then that really isn't one thing happening in an instant, that's. 410 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 3: Several things, multiplaces where it comes together then into a yeah, yeah, 411 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 3: there's and there's a bunch of different things, right. There's price, 412 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 3: there's prices that you know when you buy from MX 413 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 3: it's a single transaction. You don't have an auction. There's 414 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: there's lots of different things here that I think just 415 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 3: fall apart. 416 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: So and they also try and make it sound like 417 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: it like in order like inherently in order to serve 418 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: one side, you have to also serve the other side. 419 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,719 Speaker 1: That is simply not the case. Like, yes, there are 420 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: a few companies that have have or had before they 421 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: got driven out of the market, a DSP and SSP 422 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: and an ad server, right, but there are also standalone 423 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: DSPs there standalone ad servers, a handful of them left, right, 424 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: they're standalone exchanges. So it kind of falls apart in 425 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,959 Speaker 1: that way as well. But I agree that that is 426 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: the only art I think. Unfortunately for them, they've put 427 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: all of their eggs in that basket. The other arguments 428 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: that they're making about pro competitive rationales are just very flimsy. 429 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: I actually, I mean it's so I made buzzword bingo 430 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: this week. I made Bingo cards and I passed them 431 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: out to the press box but it's every day we hear. 432 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: They're trying to convince the court that the fees for 433 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: their products and their growth is justified by the better 434 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: quality of their products. So they talk a big game 435 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: about inventory quality and inventory curation via add acts that 436 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: they vet. They vet the ad advertisers that are allowed 437 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: to advertise there, They that the publishers that are allowed 438 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: to monetize, and its like it just has in reality. 439 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 1: They talk about. 440 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 2: Real good if you don't use the Internet. 441 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: They talk about spam, malware, ad fraud, brand safety. So 442 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: they're trying to hold out their product as like the 443 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: pinnacle of these things. The interesting thing is from the 444 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: economists perspective quality is the way that they describe that 445 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: Robin Lee described quality is for publishers that would be 446 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: yield revenue money like that, that would be quality, and 447 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: for advertisers it would be ROI. So it's a it's 448 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: a lot of like chickens talking at ducks and using 449 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: words to describe different different things. The other thing I 450 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: would say that they're doing is they jump from perspective 451 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: to perspective depending on when it's convenient, right, So if 452 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: something is harming publishers, they'll talk about how it benefited advertisers, 453 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: But the question here is about is about the impact 454 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: of publishers. They do that all day, right, So that's 455 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 1: the other kind of little bit of a game that 456 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: they're playing. They're trying to show that where something was 457 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: bad for publishers, it was good for someone else. And 458 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: I think that the DOJ has done a good job 459 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: of also deconstructing that through largely through their expert witness testimonies. 460 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 3: Yeah. The one other thing I add on the pro 461 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 3: competition because I felt like I got a taste of 462 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 3: it at the end of today, is and there's the Google. 463 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 3: The first witness. They were talking about the mission of 464 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 3: Google to fund the information of the world and where 465 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 3: that probably will go. And I saw this with a 466 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,719 Speaker 3: search trial and I saw the app store trial they 467 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 3: Googled member. They lost both of those, but they tried 468 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 3: to make an argument that all of this conduct and 469 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 3: all this wealth that we're creating through through this Android 470 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 3: operating system and through this ad marketplace that we create, 471 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 3: actually helps fund this entire ecosystem. Right, So if you 472 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,360 Speaker 3: can argue that, you know, all the way that they're 473 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 3: running their conduct to create a bigger ad market actually 474 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 3: ends up driving more revenue through to publishers. Then that's 475 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 3: they would argue that that's pro competitive even though they're 476 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 3: taking more and more of the money over time, and 477 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 3: and they're the one that's worth you. 478 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 2: Know, to again through the debt thing that we talked 479 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 2: about last time A published it dat. Yeah, that kind 480 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 2: of very severely undermines their argument. Jason, you were at 481 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 2: the such trial. You said, Yes, how has Google felt 482 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 2: different between them? Is it the same attorneys? Is different attorneys? 483 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 2: Is there? Their argument sounds much weaker at the very. 484 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 3: Least totally different set of attorneys. And I would say 485 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 3: that this case is more complicated, so there's a bigger 486 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 3: opportunity to try to confuse things. Where the search case 487 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 3: really came down to, you know, would the judge understand 488 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 3: and when be able to prove the network effects and 489 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 3: the importance of scale with data and then you know, 490 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 3: is buying out the exclusive search slot is that truly 491 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 3: exclusive or is that just a preference, et cetera. So 492 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 3: like there's this definition of exclusively conduct anyway, so that 493 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 3: one was more I think a matter if you had 494 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 3: to play it out and you got to see some 495 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 3: of the bad conduct. But it was ultimately going to 496 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 3: be based on some legal analysis where this one. You know, 497 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 3: the actual storytelling is really really important on both sides. 498 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 3: And you know, to be fair, we're only a half 499 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 3: a day into Google's defense, but it looks like the 500 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 3: the just departments got a lot better material. 501 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: So there there is one thing I was reminded of 502 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: as you were talking that I'm actually curious to get 503 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: your take on while we're here. I think if there 504 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: were one argument that seems to be landing somewhat with 505 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: the judge, it is this idea that in order to 506 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: they're being asked to provide access to their customers, or 507 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: they're being they're being asked to allow things that would 508 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: require them to build new functionality for their tools. I 509 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: don't understand how that would land, even even even if 510 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: we buy that they would have to build these things 511 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: like how many millions do they make in a minute. 512 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: So I don't I don't really understand, but I just 513 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: I say that because I know. I think today the 514 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: judge did ask the expert witness, or she allowed a 515 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: line of questioning to continue that seemed to indicate that 516 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: this is an area that she is thinking about. So 517 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: I was curious about your take. 518 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 3: I mean, at risk of ed asked me to explain 519 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 3: another Supreme Court decision. I think that that's trying to 520 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 3: get at the other defense that Google try to lay 521 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,719 Speaker 3: out there walking in, which is this Trinco case that 522 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 3: basically it's a refusal to deal, that a duty to deal, 523 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 3: and does does a company have to actually enable its 524 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 3: rivals or provide APIs or allow its rivals to use 525 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 3: its products? But that's not really central to the case, 526 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 3: and it's really a matter of they tied their markets 527 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 3: together and force the customer bases to use them and 528 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 3: so but I think that's the line of defense they're trying. 529 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: To be also being discovery throughout this case, where people 530 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 2: just talk about addicts sucking, there's that being a shitty 531 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 2: product that sucks. 532 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 3: It's cost twice as much and it's not as good. 533 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 3: Because yeah, I mean, that's it's a definition of monopoly. 534 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's it really feels like we're watching an 535 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 2: empire crumble. It's so strange because you you look at 536 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 2: these companies for years, it's these kind of immovable beasts, 537 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 2: these titans that will never be broken. But when they're 538 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 2: in front of the Department of Justice, Like I don't know, man, 539 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 2: Like it's actually good we do this, like look at 540 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 2: my look at my annoying drawing I did, Like what 541 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 2: do you think? Like it's just strange, like how it 542 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 2: was always this flimsy, really interesting to watch them have 543 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 2: to draw it out in that spaghetti football on a 544 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 2: screen and not be able to use any other fancy 545 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 2: video and storytelling beyond you know, the attorney at the 546 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: electron and a single visual on the wall, and you know, 547 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 2: everybody in the courtroom is watching Google pass post it 548 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 2: notes back and forth from its attorneys to it's cobbs 549 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 2: people to run out the door and try to tell 550 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 2: their story outside the courtroom because there's no TVs or 551 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 2: you know, audio ittever one. That was one thing that 552 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 2: you tweeted out that I'd love to talk about, though, 553 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 2: some of the pre briefs that Google had been doing 554 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 2: around Google Ads. I would love to talk about that, 555 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: primarily fiend of the show Casey Newton, who had the 556 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 2: Google's Google's lawyer's hand up his asshole, not literally, but 557 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 2: he was doing ventral Chris bullshit. So there was a 558 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 2: story towards the end of October twenty twenty. I believe 559 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 2: where Casey Newton on Platformer I apologized was suggesting anyone's 560 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 2: hands with anywhere near anyone's unmentionables there It's not true. However, 561 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 2: Casey clearly he and as part of the discovery, which 562 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 2: I will link in the episode notes, Jason, you posted this. 563 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 2: It's they briefed a bunch of journalists, including Casey Newton, 564 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 2: and then Casey Newton put out this piece which is like, yeah, 565 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 2: here's why I think the Google the Google's argument against 566 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 2: the oj Ovisa it's actually good. But also, yes, I 567 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 2: went and chased that bad boy down. Tell me the 568 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 2: little bit about these briefs because so I. 569 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 3: Didn't want to call any individual because that's my job. 570 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 3: They're they're yeah, so you know what we saw. What 571 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 3: we saw was when the the Justice Department filed its 572 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 3: search complaints again, which is the one they just won 573 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 3: in August. So I, like, I tried to remind everybody 574 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 3: that when I when I shared that thread is this 575 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 3: is a complaint that was filed and then they lost. 576 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,719 Speaker 3: People lost this right, It's a winning complaint by just department. 577 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 3: And what we saw was google systematic reaction to when 578 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 3: that complaint was filed, and all the people that they breathed, 579 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 3: the friends of theirs that went on air on television 580 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 3: to defend them, the editorial boards that they pitched, that 581 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,719 Speaker 3: wrote pieces, and most of those pieces were all here's 582 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 3: why the just Department has filed a lousy case. Here's 583 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 3: why Google's going to win. Here's why, you know, people 584 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 3: don't understand how important Google is to our world. And 585 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 3: it turns out all those people were wrong. And you know, 586 00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 3: and when you're writing a piece like that with the 587 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 3: high take the day the complaints filed, and I guarantee 588 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 3: most of them never read the complaint and never saw 589 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 3: the you know, the discovery that then came afterward. Yeah, 590 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 3: you're bound to be wrong if you're just listening to Google. 591 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 3: And so yeah, yeah, it's the spin machine. 592 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 2: And I will just not not put any words in 593 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 2: anyone's mouth other than my own case. You in October twentieth, 594 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 2: twenty twenty. This piece is quite long. I'd say it's 595 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 2: about fifteen hundred and two thousand words, and it talks 596 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 2: about where the where the DOJ's case is weak for 597 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 2: quite some time, but then at the end says he 598 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 2: spoke with a spokesperson but it is word for word 599 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 2: basically what they wanted him to say. It's just shameless. 600 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 2: It's such shameful shit. Not talking specifically about Casey anymore 601 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 2: so that you guys can say something. It just sucks 602 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 2: because look, this case is, as we are finding over 603 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 2: these episodes, deep and weird to pull apart, and the 604 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 2: same as with search as well. And there's nothing wrong 605 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 2: with showing both sides of it. But at the same time, 606 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 2: I feel like being briefed by Google's lawyer is not 607 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 2: actually showing both sides. 608 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: That's right, I mean, that's why, that's why I'm so 609 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,240 Speaker 1: happy to be here throughout, even though it's obviously massively 610 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 1: disruptive to my regularly scheduled life. But that's but that's 611 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: exactly why it's so important. Google has so many resources 612 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: at their disposal. They have such a well oiled spin machine, 613 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: and it's very difficult to cut through the noise to 614 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: give perspective on actual reality. Right, So, like, yes, I 615 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: absolutely have my opinions, but it's been equally as important 616 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: with this trial to give people resources to develop their 617 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 1: own conclusions and to do their own analysis. So, like 618 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: we we've been pulling the exhibits into a way that's 619 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: more organized to just try and empower people to. 620 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: Usv Google ads dot com. We've been hyping it in 621 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 2: every episode is bad and work, but. 622 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: Like, yes, so I absolutely love weaving in my commentary 623 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: into my updates, right. But the reality is a lot 624 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: of the resources on that website are just to that 625 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: there are resources so that others have things to look 626 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: at that aren't coming just from Google's comms team, you know. 627 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 2: And I think the problem with Casey's peace that I 628 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 2: am going to bang on him a little bit because 629 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 2: he deserves it, is the I actually don't mind even 630 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 2: if someone agreed with Google, if someone was just like 631 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 2: I actually think this case is weak. Like Nili Pateau, 632 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 2: who have my problems with he said it was a vacation. 633 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 2: I don't know if I agree, but that came off 634 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 2: as nil given an opinion, which is fine, yeah, good 635 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 2: pr whatever, but still his opinion. What Casey did here 636 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 2: was presented as if this was some sort of objective analysis, 637 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 2: and I think that what frustrates me about a lot 638 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 2: of this is you also, I don't believe objective analysis 639 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 2: really exists. I think everything's subjective. But also if you are. 640 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 2: If you're going to talk to Google's law talk to 641 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 2: the Department of Justice lawyer if they'll even talk to you, 642 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 2: and if they won't, don't talk to Google's lawyer. Yeah, 643 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 2: because you are being influenced and Google has so much money. 644 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 2: It's not like you are helping a pop star. It's 645 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 2: not like you're helping your favorite author. You're helping a 646 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 2: multi trillion dollar juggernaut that controls chunks of the world's 647 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 2: economy and knowledge like lorn to their reputation. It's it's 648 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 2: just it's frustrating. 649 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 3: The also, the thing we saw them celebrate at the 650 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,359 Speaker 3: top of their summary, which is definitely a peeve of mine. 651 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 3: Everybody on Twitter knows, and I feel like I've made 652 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 3: a little bit of a dent. There is Google and 653 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 3: Facebook does this too. Puts a blog post up that's 654 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 3: labeled often as like news, and then they put down 655 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 3: basically a press release, and their whole goal is to 656 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 3: get people to share that, right, and so reporters, as 657 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 3: soon as they post, will then share that blog post. 658 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 3: And Google noted that half of the stories out there 659 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 3: had links to their blog post, right, which is basically 660 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 3: just doing their press for them and so yeah, yeah, 661 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 3: I mean, but to be fair and flip this around 662 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 3: in the positive, and it's where we kind of talked 663 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 3: at the very end last episode, ED, is that because 664 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 3: I reflected on this today, I'm sitting there in the 665 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 3: courtroom and I'm looking and I've got two full rows 666 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 3: in front of me of Google Comms people, two full rows. 667 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,240 Speaker 3: But over on the left there were also three rows 668 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 3: of press, which we did not have in a search case. 669 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 3: They're in the room, Bloomberg, New York Times, you know, adles, 670 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 3: et cetera. They're all sitting there and they're hearing the 671 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 3: exact same thing because they have to be in the room, 672 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 3: which is kind of interesting. You know, they can't be 673 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 3: off walking the halls. They have to be in the room. 674 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 3: They're gonna miss it. And then RL's back in the 675 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 3: corner too, just nailing everything down and like so it 676 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 3: does feel like we've got actual eyes and ears in 677 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 3: the room and getting the facts out there in a 678 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 3: better way than the search case. 679 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 2: And it also feels like the ad pers. I feel 680 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 2: like the digital ad press has been like often honestly 681 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 2: a few years where kind of worried they were going away, 682 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 2: they've come back quite aggressively here, and I don't think anything. 683 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 2: I don't think it's anything. If it's personal, it's just 684 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 2: because Google's been fucking around, they're finally finding out. I 685 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 2: don't think it's any particular agenda. But also I do 686 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 2: challenge you listeners if you think any of this is 687 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 2: reporters coming in with an agenda, look at the other side, 688 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 2: Look at what the tech industry has done using the media, 689 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 2: and look at this. We should be proud as members 690 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,279 Speaker 2: of the media, of the ad tech press and how 691 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 2: they have gone about this, and how Arielle and Jason 692 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 2: are ruining their weeks going to this courtroom. But it's 693 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 2: great because this is an empire. In my opinion, this 694 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 2: is his opinion that needs to fall that it needs 695 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 2: to be fair. Why do you and I are normal 696 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 2: people have to compete like regular people, and these rich 697 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 2: bastards get to do more. It's just frustrating. I like 698 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 2: seeing them burn. I'm completely subjected by the way. I 699 00:39:58,160 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 2: do not pretend otherwise. 700 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 3: All good, All good? It so yeah, so Google, we'll 701 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 3: have probably about a week left of defending itself and 702 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,720 Speaker 3: then they'll be back to you know, maybe some rebuttals 703 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 3: and stuff, but then it'll be to the judges. So 704 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,720 Speaker 3: about week left, I think yeah, I think by next Friday. 705 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 2: Hell yeah, well I think I think we can call 706 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 2: it there. Jason, where can people find you? 707 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,800 Speaker 3: Jasonderscore Kent k I N T or you can always 708 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 3: check out Digital Content next dot org, who I work for, 709 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 3: and all of our resources and our accounts there too, 710 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 3: an Ariel. 711 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 1: Ariel as Garcia or as dot org or USV googleads 712 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: dot com. 713 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:40,399 Speaker 2: I'm I'm everywhere, but also genuinely USV Google Ads is 714 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 2: so good. It is one of the best, the best 715 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 2: things out there. And you can read all of those 716 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 2: wonderful emails where they're just like, yeah, we love doing monopolies. 717 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,839 Speaker 2: Be a little bit dramatic there, but thank you so 718 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 2: much everyone for listening. I'm of course ed Zitchron and yeah, 719 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 2: we'll have probably another at least one more episode on 720 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 2: this and then we can wrap it up. Thank you 721 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 2: so much, thanks for having us by, Thank you for 722 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 2: listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the 723 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 2: Better Offline theme song is Matasowski. You can check out 724 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 2: more of his music and audio projects at Matasowski dot com. 725 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 2: M A T. T O. S O. W s ki 726 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 2: dot com. You can email me at easy at better 727 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 2: offline dot com or visit better offline dot com to 728 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,880 Speaker 2: find more podcast links and of course my newsletter. I 729 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 2: also really recommend you go to chat dot Where's youreed 730 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 2: dot at to visit the discord, and go to our 731 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,359 Speaker 2: slash Better Offline to check out our reddit. Thank you 732 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:41,360 Speaker 2: so much for listening. 733 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media. 734 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 2: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 735 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,839 Speaker 2: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio 736 00:41:50,840 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 1: App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.