1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,479 Speaker 1: There's a lot of misinformation that's developed for these extremely 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: cynical reasons. I mean, part of why we're here is 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: to talk about climate change, and here we see industries 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: spending massive amounts of money so that they can make 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:22,479 Speaker 1: more money, and doing it purposely to confuse people, and 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: doing it in a way where they know they're going 7 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: to kill people and potentially wreck theater. 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 2: Oh fucked. 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 3: Welcome to I'm Fucking the Future, the show where we 10 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 3: learn about surprising and innovative ways of scientists, entrepreneurs, activists, 11 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 3: and even philosophers are fighting for climate crisis. I'm your house, 12 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 3: Chris Turney, and I believe that together we can unfuck 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 3: this mess. Let's get started. 14 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 4: Weird Fucking the Future. 15 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 3: Okay, you've been here a while. You've heard about the 16 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 3: bad a. 17 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: Mass evacuation this morning along Australia's southeastern coast, with bushfires 18 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: looming and extreme danger ahead. 19 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 5: A fierce heat wave is gripping parts of Europe, with 20 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 5: temperatures reaching more than forty degrees celsius after. 21 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 3: Twenty four hours. 22 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 2: All that remains our flooded homes and floating debris. On 23 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 2: Sunday and Monday, Mediterranean storm Daniel swept through eastern Libya, 24 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 2: washing away entire neighborhoods. 25 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 3: But let's pause for a moment and consider an amazing 26 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 3: possible future. It's twenty fifty and I'm Chris Turney, a 27 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 3: retired climate scientist. Almost everything around me has been electrified. 28 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 3: Our homes, our work, are cars. People no longer live 29 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 3: in those harmful little suburbs. We live in small communities 30 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,919 Speaker 3: where we know our neighbors, and it's just a short 31 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 3: walk to the grocery store. And if we do need 32 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 3: to go further, we can just use for clean, affordable 33 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 3: public transportation that's widely available across the world. Fossil fuel 34 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 3: companies are a thing of a past, and the people 35 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 3: who are working in coal and oil now working green jobs. 36 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 3: At school, kids learn about smog and wildfires, but not 37 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 3: because they need to learn how to survive them. They're 38 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 3: learning about these events in their history classes. Natural disasters 39 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 3: because of climate change have largely stopped, or at least 40 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 3: become less frequent and less extreme, And the world just 41 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 3: feels pretty damn good. While this might sound like a 42 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 3: total fantasy, it's totally within our reach. We're going to 43 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 3: have to work really fucking hard to achieve this vision, 44 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 3: but one of the most pressing challenges is that a 45 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 3: world is full of bad actors pushing bad information in 46 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 3: bad faith. Misinformation cast out on the urgency of a 47 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 3: climate crisis, and it distracts us from a real issue. 48 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,959 Speaker 3: We need to take immediate action at speed and scale. 49 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 3: It's easy to find examples of how mis and disinformation 50 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 3: is influencing the climate crisis, like the idea a walkable 51 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 3: fifteen minute cities is some sort of plot for totalitarian control, 52 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 3: or that the wildfires in Mary last year were started 53 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 3: by energy weapons or space lasers, or that shifts in 54 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 3: the Earth's magnetic field and not human activity, is responsible 55 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 3: for a climate crisis. That one was promoted by Joe 56 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 3: Rogan and got millions of views on TikTok. All of 57 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 3: this is easily disprovable, of course, by any of the 58 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 3: world's thousands of climate scientists who look at the actual 59 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 3: facts and data and models all day long. But too 60 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 3: many people are believing these things, and that's all of 61 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 3: our problem. Today we're going to talk about how and 62 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 3: why misinformation came for a climate crisis and what we 63 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 3: can do about it. Our guest is Kaylen O'Connor. She's 64 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 3: a professor of philosophy at University of California, Irvine, where, 65 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 3: among other things, she researches misinformation and how false beliefs 66 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 3: spread between people. And Kaylen is not like other philosophers. 67 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 3: She's a cool philosopher. On her website, she's got this 68 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 3: beautiful photo of herself, her kids, and a chicken. It's 69 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 3: not the kind of headshot you see most academics posts. 70 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 3: They're normally quite formal. And I've been intimidating. 71 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: I'm in a discipline which is like very male, very. 72 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: White philosophy, even though it's in the humanities, has been 73 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: like the humanities discipline where it hasn't diversified as much 74 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: as other ones. 75 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 2: So as a you know, as a woman, as a. 76 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: Full professor, I sort of like to open the doors 77 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: a little bit and be like I'm a real person 78 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: to younger women who want to join the field, like 79 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: you can be a real person who So in this picture, 80 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: I have my three kids and I bring them along 81 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: to conferences sometimes and they show up one zoom with me, 82 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: and I tell everyone who will listen about my chickens. 83 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, those chickens are a pretty big part of her life. 84 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: I am zoned to have up to three chickens, and 85 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: I have seven chickens, and I recently had to build 86 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: them a new enclosure because my neighbor was like, enough 87 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: with the damn chickens. They're all different breeds. They're very beautiful. 88 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: They are named Starfrost and red Velvet and Molasses and 89 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: cream puff and Oreo, mostly after desserts. That's a wolf. 90 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 3: So you must be dragging your eggs on you? Or 91 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 3: do you give them out to you? Maybe apiece your neighbor? 92 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: Do you give them a Yeah, I just I just 93 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: give them to neighbors if we have too many, And 94 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: like my neighbors and I, we have you know, like 95 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: someone brings over the extra lemons, someone brings over the 96 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: extra ginger cake, someone brings over the extra eggs. 97 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 2: It's like a very nice little. 98 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 3: It sounds lovely. It sounds lovely. In that Star's hollow 99 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 3: esque setting, it could be easy to forget the existential 100 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 3: crisis we're facing, but Kayla says she's rarely not thinking 101 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 3: about the environment. Part of that is Judo her upbringing. 102 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 2: My dad was an environmentalist. 103 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: I used to read Ranger Rick magazine, and my grandfather 104 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: wrote an article I think in the seventies about the 105 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: threats of human omission and possible emergence of climate change 106 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: as a result. So yeah, I've been worried about climate 107 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: change literally since I was five or. 108 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: Six years old. 109 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 3: Really, that's sometimes. 110 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 2: Depressing to be. 111 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: Like now I'm forty and I'm even more worried about 112 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: it than before. 113 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 3: The twenty sixty US presidential debates made Caylen feel particularly 114 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 3: concerned about our future. 115 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I still remember in one of the Trump 116 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: Clinton debates, Hillary Clinton saying something like the Russian government 117 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: is making these claims about me, and kind of jumping 118 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: back up, like. 119 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: The Russian government, what are we talking about? You know. 120 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: At that point, I at least was just not aware 121 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: of the way that big forces were starting to use 122 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: social media to try to control or shape political events 123 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: and outcomes. My collaborator James weather Or and I both 124 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: started thinking like, oh, this is really going to matter, 125 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: this is going to be important. But one thing that's 126 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: kind of funny is that we we even writing this 127 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: book on misinformation. 128 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: So we wrote this book The Misinformation Age. 129 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: Starting then, we really underestimated how serious of an issue 130 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: it would be, and how long term, So we thought 131 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: we have to write this book really fast. 132 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 3: The book for Misinformation Age, How False Beliefs Spread is 133 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 3: an impressive and stellar contribution to the field. It's totally 134 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 3: digestible for the general public, and it digs into how 135 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 3: people understand what is truthful and what is not, and 136 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 3: ultimately how misinformation has become such a huge issue in 137 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 3: our digital world. So getting into your work, you call 138 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 3: yourself a philosopher of science. Now, if a word philosopher 139 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: to me makes me think of Confucius or Aristotle, and 140 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 3: people whose feels to study definitely do not overlap with 141 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 3: mine at all. So what does it mean to be 142 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 3: a philosopher of science? 143 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I'll just point out all the 144 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: sciences used to be philosophers. I mean, Aristotle wrote on 145 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: all sorts of things biology and physics and astronomy, you 146 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: know everything, and then the science has kind of peeled 147 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: away and philosophy was what was left. But philosophy of 148 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: science is an old discipline and there are a lot 149 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: of things philosophers of science do. So one thing is 150 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: work on understanding how science as an enterprise works. 151 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: You know, how do scientific progress work? 152 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 3: For thousands of years, philosophers have asked questions about the 153 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 3: way we live and why, about how we work together, 154 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 3: and why societies work the way they do. 155 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: One thing that's a very traditional question in philosophy is 156 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: how does knowledge work? 157 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 2: How do we come to know anything? 158 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: And also what does it mean to have a belief 159 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: in something that's justified. One thing that a lot of 160 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: philosophers work on now is what's called social epistemology. 161 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 3: That's the study of how people understand knowledge, how they 162 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 3: understand what is true, and how we search for truth. 163 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: So Descartes was focused on these really these questions about 164 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: individual knowledge, like how can I, as this one little 165 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: isolated unit. 166 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 2: Have confidence that the things I believe are true? 167 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: But increasingly people came to understand that that's not really 168 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: how human knowledge works. So other people tell us things, 169 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: we choose to trust them, We uptake those things as beliefs. 170 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: We do some other things we reason about, like is 171 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: this consistent with the other things I believe? Should I 172 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: trust this person for what reason? 173 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 2: Or should I not? 174 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: Our knowledge, in fact, is just very very deeply social. 175 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: So one thing a lot of philosophers study is social 176 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: epistemology that relates to philosophy of science, because a lot 177 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: of things in philosophy of science or work on how 178 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: groups of scientists come to know or believe things. 179 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: So how does a group. 180 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: Of humans who are interested in climate change come to 181 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: believe the climate is warming and at these rates and 182 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: as the result of these causes. So those are things 183 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: that philosophers work on. 184 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 3: So with fake news, then it's an element of actually, 185 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 3: you've got a belief that's not true that is being 186 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 3: presented effectively as a truth. 187 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: So, first of all, I don't necessarily love to use 188 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 1: the term fake news, because, as a lot of people 189 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: have pointed out, fake news was this term that was 190 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: like very much applied to this specific phenomena happening in 191 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, when people would make 192 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: fake news sites and fake news articles, and then the 193 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: term got co opted by the right to describe a 194 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: lot of true things as fake when they weren't. 195 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 6: They are the enemy of the people, and we could 196 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 6: have a country that would be able to heal and 197 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 6: get together, except the media fomens it. They're so corrupt, 198 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 6: and you know, I call it. I came up with 199 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 6: the term fake news a long time ago. I don't 200 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 6: know if I'll get credit for that, but that's okay. 201 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 3: As Kaylin said, fake news has taken on a new 202 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 3: meaning for a lot of people. It just means anything 203 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 3: I don't like, So I. 204 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: Often will use misinformation or misleading content. So that's why 205 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: I'm like switching language a little bit. So there are 206 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: a lot of ways that people spread misinformation or misleading content, 207 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: and a lot of reasons why people like uptake it. 208 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: The most basic just has to do with this fact 209 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: that we're social learners, where we necessarily have to trust 210 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: each other in order to learn most things we know 211 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: about the world, which means that people tell us things. 212 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: You know, most of the time it's in our best 213 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: interest to believe those things, and sometimes it's not. Sometimes 214 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: those things are wrong, but we just don't have the 215 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 1: ability to always differentiate between the stuff we're getting from 216 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: other people that's true and that's false. And so social 217 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: knowledge is tremendously powerful. But once you open up that channel, 218 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: this door for social information to come through, you're going 219 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: to open up a channel for misinformation for fake news 220 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: to come through too. 221 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 3: That's a really powerful analogy. I really like that, Kayley, 222 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 3: so I have to ask. I mean, I'm very aware 223 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 3: that I have done this. Have you ever fallen for 224 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 3: any news articles that are basically misinformed? 225 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: Oh? 226 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 2: One hundred times. 227 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think people would find that reas. 228 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it was stressful to write a book about 229 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: misinformation because I guarantee somewhere in that book we say 230 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: something false, probably multiple things false, even though we did 231 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: the best research we could. But yeah, I'm a human, 232 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: and like all other humans, I often fall for misinformation. 233 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: One of my favorite little examples is I was doing 234 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: an interview on misinformation and someone brought up an example 235 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: of like a propagated false belief, which is that Daddy 236 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: long legs these spiders in the US are the most 237 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: poisonous spiders in the world, but their mouth they're too 238 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: small to bite you. 239 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: And as he was saying it, I was like, yep, 240 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: I believed that one. 241 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 3: Until I've not heard that one. Actually, that's amazing. It's 242 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 3: a crowd of story. 243 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: As soon as he said it, I was like, oh, yeah, 244 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 2: that's very dumb. Of course that's false, but no, I 245 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 2: hadn't believed it until that. 246 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 3: I've done it too. A few years ago, there was 247 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 3: this news article about a polar bear who had become 248 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 3: stranded on a Scottish island after the melting Arctic ice. 249 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 3: Ha'd separated the poor animal from its home. And I 250 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 3: remember reading this piece and going, oh, that's amazing. But 251 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 3: of course this is just an April fool's prank have 252 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 3: a newspaper, even I, as someone who studs as a 253 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 3: climate and melting ice fell for it. Now, that kind 254 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 3: of misinformation is fairly harmless, both to us and of 255 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 3: the Daddy long legs and polar bears not in Scotland. 256 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 3: But other misinformation is developed by bad actors to influence politics, 257 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 3: the economy, and the very social fabric of our communities. 258 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 4: We're a fucking the future. We're a fucking the future. 259 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 3: One of the most interesting, or perhaps most terrifying things 260 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 3: about the miss and disinformation landscape today is how oil 261 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 3: and gas are using environmental and nature activists to spew falsehoods. 262 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of stuff spread by oil and 263 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: gas about how windmills kill birds and how windmills harm whales. 264 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: So here are people trying to glom on to people's 265 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: environmental impulses, their desires to help other animals protect the environment. 266 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 2: But what they're. 267 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: Actually trying to do is to stop action our. 268 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 3: Climate change, really pressing those emotional buttons. Now, what if 269 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 3: you could help clarify for me and the listeners as well, 270 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 3: what is the difference between misinformation and disinformation? 271 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: So the way people typically pull those apart is to 272 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: say that disinformation is false and it's intended to mislead, 273 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: it's misleading, and someone's trying to mislead you, whereas misinformation 274 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: is misleading but there's no intention to. 275 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: Lead you astray. 276 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 5: Ah. 277 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 3: So some of the times when we're talking about these 278 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 3: climate issues which are being deliberately misleading, are actually effectively disinformation. 279 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 3: Is that right? 280 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: Yes? Though I think that when we talk about information 281 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: on social media, it's not like this is a bad 282 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: way to differentiate things, but it ends up not, I think, 283 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: always capturing what's happening on social media, because a lot 284 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: of what you see is disinformation created by cynical parties 285 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: that then becomes misinformation. 286 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 3: Ooh, so that they are actually sharing it not with 287 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 3: the intent to mislead, they think it's true exactly. 288 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: So most of the people spreading, for example, say of 289 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: the whales, are not going to be people who are 290 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: trying to mislead to anyone or not going to be 291 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: people who want a bad outcome. Environmentalism so in that 292 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: it sort of transforms into misinformation, and it's designed to 293 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: transform into misinformation. 294 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 3: In Kalin's book The Age of Misinformation, she and are 295 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 3: co author James Owen revel right about Roger Ravel, a 296 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 3: climate scientist who was one of the first people to 297 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 3: study global heating. 298 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 1: He was a major influence on al Gore, who of 299 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: course has been a climate activist. As a politician, he 300 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: did a lot of work showing that carbon diaxterrad was 301 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: increasing in the atmosphere as a result of fossil fuels. 302 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: So he really spent his career showing that the climate 303 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 1: was changing and in fact raising alarms about global warming. 304 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 3: By the time Jim Hansen gave his testimony in front 305 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 3: of Congress in nineteen eighty eight, Ravel was already seventy nine, 306 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 3: and as he aged he became very sick. Now during 307 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 3: his time, a man named Fred Singer came along, took 308 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 3: money from oil and gas. He was basically paid to 309 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 3: sow skepticism and doubt about climate change. Fred Singer has 310 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: a long resume to name some of his greatest hits. 311 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 3: In the nineteen eighties, he helped promote confusion about the 312 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 3: causes of acid rain, the health effects of smoking, and 313 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 3: ye ozone hole depletion. And in nineteen ninety one, Fred 314 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 3: took some of his previous writing, repurposed it into an 315 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 3: article and added Ravel's name as a co author. Now 316 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 3: all of this happened at a time when Revel was 317 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 3: gravely ill. 318 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: The paper was skeptical about climate change. 319 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 3: So you've got this subject matter expert, now in old age, 320 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 3: claiming that maybe the science behind global heating isn't as 321 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 3: solid as he previously claimed, maybe it shouldn't be believed, 322 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 3: Maybe there's nothing to be concerned about here. 323 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: And so Revel's reputation as a climate scientist was weaponized 324 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: for climate skepticism. 325 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 3: But people who knew Revel, including his research assistant who 326 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 3: had been working with him for twelve years at this point, 327 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 3: said Revel had been hoodwinked into attaching his name to 328 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 3: the paper. 329 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: A lot of people cast doubts about whether Revel was 330 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: really able to consent properly to being an author on 331 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: this paper. 332 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 3: And the paper had serious repercussions on the public debate 333 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 3: around climate change. For example, the then Senator al Gore 334 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 3: had been talking about the greenhouse effect and climate change 335 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 3: for many years, but now the top scientist on climate 336 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 3: change was apparently doubting his own work. It cast doubts 337 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 3: on the whole thing. 338 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 2: This was made to use to make Al Gore look foolish. 339 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: You know, the person who you told us had showed 340 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: all these things about how the climate is warming, even 341 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: he doesn't actually think it's warming. This is something we've 342 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: seen happen again and again in the climate skepticism movement. 343 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 2: Is that, you know, oil and gas. 344 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: The people sort of working to fight understanding on climate change. 345 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: They get real scientists to take up climate skeptic positions. However, 346 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: these scientists are very rarely like climate scientists. 347 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 2: In fact, it's almost always physicists. 348 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what is wrong with physicists producing these 349 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: people who are willing to do this, But so they'll 350 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: get these very prominent physicists to sort of be the 351 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: face of climate skepticism. And because these are actual scientific 352 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: experts and people usually trust scientific experts, their skepticism ends 353 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: up looking very powerful. 354 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 3: Fred Singer was repeatedly interviewed about the paper Have the 355 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 3: Huge Change in Revel's view on global heating in the interviews, 356 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 3: he just outright lies about the situation. 357 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 7: When he joins US Live from Washington, DC, Doctor Singer, 358 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 7: what was Roger Ruvel's view of carbon dioxide as a 359 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 7: greenhouse gas when you co author that caused most article 360 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 7: back in nineteen ninety, he was very relaxed about it. 361 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 7: He basically. 362 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 4: Looked at this as a grand geophysical experiment. 363 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 3: And this, of course wasn't the first time something like 364 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 3: this happened. The Roger level case is just one of 365 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 3: many alarming examples of how a big oil lobby uses 366 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 3: real scientific experts to amplify their quack science. 367 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: I mean, there have been others, so I mean, this 368 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: was a strategy that was really engineered by big tobacco 369 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: in the fifties and sixties. But for example, they created 370 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: a group called the Tobacco Industry Research Committee that was 371 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: supposedly going to research whether tobacco was harmful. It was 372 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: in fact a propaganda body. But it was headed by 373 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: a molecular biologist who didn't like genetics, and so he 374 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: again was a scientific expert. He of course was in 375 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: no way like a health expert or a doctor or 376 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: a medical researcher, but he lent the sort of way 377 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: of expertise to this group. 378 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 3: So when we think about misinformation, we think about Russian 379 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 3: state television, but one of the things you write about 380 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 3: is actually way way scarier. And it's our idea that 381 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 3: these days the propagandis are family and friends, and that's 382 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 3: because of social media. I wonder if you could take 383 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 3: us way back to twenty sixteen and explain how social 384 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 3: media really changed the state of misinformation. Yeah. 385 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: So social media, we can think of it broadly as 386 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: having changed the way information can flow between people. It's 387 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: kind of special in that it changes very quickly, and 388 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: there's always new platforms, and the way information is flowing 389 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: is always changing. First it soundbites, and then it's pictures, 390 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: and then it's words, and then it's words and pictures, 391 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: and then it's videos, and so the change is so 392 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: fast that it's sort of hard to respond regulate. Here's 393 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: a few of the things that really matter about social 394 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: media and why misinformation can spread so well on there. 395 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: So one thing is that people can get big platforms 396 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 1: even when they don't really deserve big platforms. Another thing 397 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: is that it's hard to know the source of information. 398 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: So if you're thinking about like person to person social 399 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: exchange of information, you're looking at another person in the face. 400 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: You can see who they are, you know where they live, 401 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: you know how you met them, You probably know other 402 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: people they're connected to. You have a lot of information 403 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: about who they are. Once you get onto social media, 404 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: you're looking at profiles where there may or may not 405 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: even be a real person corresponding with that profile. That 406 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: profile could be bought, it could be a Russian agent, 407 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: it could be another political agent, it could be someone's 408 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: secret earner account where they're trying to do something, and 409 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: so you have less ability to judge your social sources 410 00:23:54,000 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: as trustworthy or not trustworthy. In addition, we see propagandists 411 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: able to take advantage of various aspects of social media 412 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: to sort of tweak our social feelings of trust in 413 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: ways that are much harder to do person to person. So, 414 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: for example, they can get a bunch of bots to 415 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: like a piece of misinformation, and then that looks to 416 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: us like this is very popular. 417 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 2: A lot of people like it, a lot of people 418 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:23,479 Speaker 2: trust it. 419 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: That's a cue to us that it is trustworthy that 420 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: we we ought to engage in, or that we could share, 421 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: and so there are ways for our you know, our 422 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: normal knowledge forming mechanisms to get hacked. 423 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 3: And Kalin says that right now a lot of people 424 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 3: don't trust the institutions that we've historically gained knowledge from, 425 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 3: like traditional media and subject matter experts. 426 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: A lot of people argue that for the most part, 427 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: people are trusting of experts still, including of scientists, and 428 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: yet we do see this kind of phenomenon of people 429 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: describing the New York Times as fake news. A lot 430 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: of what is driving that, I think is cynical actors 431 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: who are trying to erode public trust in science, and 432 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: especially you see this in the US among right wing 433 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,959 Speaker 1: politicians and especially populist type politicians, because of course populism 434 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: is associated with this kind of rejection of authority or expertise. 435 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: But there's often a reason people are doing it, which 436 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 1: is that if you can get people not to trust 437 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: the real scientists, not to trust the real journalists, not 438 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: to trust these good sources of information, then they're easier 439 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: to control. 440 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 3: Just backing up, we've got bad actors who are trying 441 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 3: to influence public opinion so that those people don't say, 442 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 3: stop protesting in the streets about the government's inact on 443 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 3: the climate crisis, and these bad actors are putting a 444 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 3: share ton of money into advertising and propaganda campaigns, but 445 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 3: they're also influencing our politics through lobbying and funding the 446 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 3: campaigns of politicians who side with their bogus narrative. This 447 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 3: might seem pretty bleak that there is a solution. 448 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: Thing. 449 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 2: Number One, campaign finance reform. 450 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: That's a depressing topic because the people who are financed 451 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: are the ones who have to implement campaign finance reform. 452 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: But without it, it's pretty hard to see how we'll 453 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: get effective climate action because there are just so many 454 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: politicians who are funded by oil gas call these massively 455 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: wealthy corporations that can afford to give a lot of 456 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: money to politicians. Another thing has to do with regulation 457 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 1: of online content, so free speech. 458 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: We don't want to impinge on free speech. 459 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: We do want it to be the case that all 460 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: of us can be in informational environments that allow us 461 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: to form good beliefs, that give us the freedom to 462 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: think effectively about what's happening around us, to learn about 463 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: the world, that give us the freedom to make good 464 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: choices for our own lives and protect our own interests. 465 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: So you know, there are ways in which we can 466 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: think about us as having rights to be in good 467 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: informational environments as well as other people having rights to 468 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: share bad information. 469 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 2: One thing a lot of philosophers have talked about. 470 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: Is the difference between stopping speech and deplatforming. So we 471 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 1: don't think of people as having a right to have 472 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: any platform for their false beliefs or bad ideas, Like 473 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: nobody is entitled to come to a university and get 474 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: of talks on their flat earth theories. 475 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 2: In the same way people. 476 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: Aren't entitled to have the algorithm on Instagram promote their 477 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: content for them. 478 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 2: To a lot of people, that's not an entitlement. 479 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: So we can have regulations where people can say what 480 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: they want, but where we don't have to platform spread 481 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: what they're seeing. And you know, it's not as if 482 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: people have an entitlement to even be on social media 483 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: platform that's up to social media platforms, and if you know, 484 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: they were to take that more seriously, I would think 485 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: a good model is something like, when you get onto 486 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: a platform like this, you sign a user agreement or 487 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: a contract that says if I promote too much misleading 488 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: or harmful. 489 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 2: Content, then the platform can. 490 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: Kick me off because the platform has a standard for 491 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: the kind of content you can share. 492 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 2: Of course, that gets into very difficult about who's. 493 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: Going to decide what kind of content is misleading and harmful. 494 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: And that is legitimately tricky, but sort of in. 495 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: The extremes, there's a lot of content that we can 496 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: you know, it's just not controversial that it's misleading, that 497 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: it's interfering with people's abilities to function and make decisions, 498 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: and that's the kind of stuff that could be a 499 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: gimme to say if people are sharing too much of that, 500 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: then they don't get platformed on this. 501 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 2: I think the. 502 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: Sort of most promising model for how to regulate niche 503 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: online is to have something analogous like to the EPA 504 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: or the FDA, a regulatory agency where we're not thinking 505 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: about like passing laws in Congress that say this is 506 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: what you can do on Instagram, but rather we have 507 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: a set of guidelines that social media platforms have to 508 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: comply to, and then these regulatory agencies can work flexibly 509 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: with those media companies to comply with those guidelines. 510 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 3: Okay, that's big honors, maybe not up your alley, but 511 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 3: there are a ton of ways we can protect ourselves 512 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 3: from missing disinformation. 513 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 4: We're fucking the future, We're un fucking the future. 514 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 3: If you like me, you might feel totally equipped to 515 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 3: recognize miss and disinformation, and yet most of us have 516 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 3: fallen for it. I definitely have. So what can we 517 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 3: actually do here? 518 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 4: What fuck can I do? 519 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 3: I'm joined again by the brilliant Maggie bed Maggie. How's 520 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 3: it going, Hey. 521 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 2: Chris, I'm doing really well. 522 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 8: But honestly, some of the steph you and kill just 523 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 8: talked about it's pretty fucking depressing. I mean, even those 524 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 8: of us who think of ourselves as savvy can be 525 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 8: easily duped by misinformation. 526 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 5: Because the people who put that shit out do a 527 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 5: really good job of it. 528 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 9: And some of it is disinformation. They really are trying 529 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 9: to make us believe something that's not true. I don't 530 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 9: know about you, but I think of times when I've 531 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 9: been fooled but like a visual image and I believe 532 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 9: it because I see it with my own eyes and 533 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 9: then I realized it was manipulated. 534 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 2: Well, that's the same thing that happens with facts. 535 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 3: Totally me too, I mean, Kaitlin had one tip I 536 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 3: wanted to share about how we can steal clear misinformation. 537 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 3: I mean, she says one of the easiest ways to 538 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 3: spot misinformation relate to the climate change is to look 539 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 3: out for news of articles where climate disansers are being 540 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 3: blamed on something other than the climate crisis. 541 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: When you see these kind of social consequences of climate change, like, 542 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: for example, conflicts related to climate crises or refugees, lines 543 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: that are casting doubt about the real causes, like oh, 544 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: this would have happened even without rising heat, or it 545 00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: wasn't actually the climate that caused this, lines about I'm 546 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: meant being a conspiracy. And then I talked about these 547 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: kinds of distracting claims where they're talking about harms from 548 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: climate mitigation or green energy, and those harms might be real, 549 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: but they're distracting from the much much more serious harms 550 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: of continuing to use fossil fuels. 551 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 5: Oh, I think that is such a good point. Misinformation 552 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 5: isn't just incorrect information. It's also information that doesn't include 553 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 5: the full picture. Maybe it's facts cherry picked from a 554 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 5: larger study that paint a picture that is very misleading. 555 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 5: So if you're wondering if what you're reading is misinformation 556 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 5: or disinformation. Here are some red flags to look out for. 557 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 5: First of all, I am very skeptical of emotional reactions. 558 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 5: Content that uses really emotional or charge language, it just 559 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 5: should be checked. You just want to make sure all 560 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 5: the facts are straight before retweeting or sharing it. It's 561 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 5: so tempting because you're like, oh my gosh, that's shocking. 562 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 5: I'm gonna share it, and then you know, just take 563 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 5: a breath, check it out. And when something sounds too 564 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 5: good or too bad, or or maybe too shocking to 565 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 5: be true, well it just might not be true. Also, 566 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 5: always make sure you check the source of the information. 567 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 5: Who funded the study that is being cited. Is it 568 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 5: a reputable academic resource or a corporation that stands to 569 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 5: gain financially? And if it's the latter, maybe take that 570 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 5: information with a grain of salt. 571 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 3: Oh, that last one is good. Always check out the 572 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 3: source of the information and that you're conveying the full picture. 573 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 3: And that's what the fuck you can do? 574 00:33:54,320 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 4: What the fuck can I do? Oh? 575 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: Fucked? 576 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 3: That's all for this episode. Next time, I'm fucking the 577 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 3: future Bill neither science guy. 578 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 2: A question I have for conservative me is why are 579 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 2: you doing this? Why are you ignoring the facts. What 580 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 2: is it and to think, well, they're doing it for 581 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 2: the money. 582 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: What money? 583 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 2: We're all gonna die if you keep this up. 584 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 3: I think you're really going to enjoy it until then. 585 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 3: I'm Chris Turney signing off from Sydney, Australia. Thanks for 586 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 3: joining me in I'm Fucking the Future. 587 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 4: Weird Fucking the Future. 588 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 3: I'm Fucking the Future is produced by Imagine Audio and 589 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 3: Awfully Nice for iHeart Podcasts and hosted by me Chris Turney. 590 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 3: The show is written by Meredith Brian. I'm Fucking the 591 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 3: Future is produced by Amber von Shassen and Renee Colvert. 592 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 3: Ron Howard, Brian, Carral Welker and Nathan Chloke are the 593 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 3: executive producers from Imagine Audio. Jesse Burton and Katie Hodges 594 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 3: are the executive producers from Awfully Nice. Sound design and 595 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 3: mixing by Evan Arnette, original music by Lillly Hayden and 596 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 3: producing services by Peter McGuigan. Sam Swinnerton wrote our theme 597 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 3: and all those fun jingles. If you enjoyed this episode, 598 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 3: be sure to rate and review Unfucking the Future on 599 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts or whether you get your podcasts