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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Being a New Orleans native.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I put a lot of

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Speaker 1: stock in is fine food. You go a lot of

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Speaker 1: places and you know you measured that location by the

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Speaker 1: cuisine they serve. I've been around a lot of chefs

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Speaker 1: over the course of my life. The story I want

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Speaker 1: to tell you today has to do with a man

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Speaker 1: that's spent nearly fifty years not just working in the

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Speaker 1: kitchen as a chef, but teaching others not just how

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Speaker 1: to cook, but things like foraging from mushrooms, how to

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Speaker 1: set of kitchen up, how to make a living with

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Speaker 1: your hands. Following those things that you really really love

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Speaker 1: him day, I want to talk about the murder Dan Brophy.

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Speaker 1: Jackie Howard's with me, the executive producer of Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Jackie, what do we have relative to

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Speaker 1: Dan Brophy in his life? Dan Brothy was a beloved

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Speaker 1: chef and instructor. His students spoke highly of him. He

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Speaker 1: worked for the Oregon Culinary Institute in Southwest Portland. He

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Speaker 1: had been there since two thousand six. Students came into

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Speaker 1: the school early one morning and found Daniel Brophy dead

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Speaker 1: shot in the kitchen did not appear to be any

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Speaker 1: forced entry. The assumption was made that it was a

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Speaker 1: robbery or attempted robbery, but it took some time for

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Speaker 1: police to come up with the idea of what they

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Speaker 1: think actually happened. Daniel Brofy was married to a romance novelist,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Rampton Brothy. One of the stories that she was

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Speaker 1: credited with writing is called how to Murder Your Husband

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Speaker 1: and also the Wrong Husband. Police began their investigation in

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Speaker 1: the kitchen. How do you start because you have the

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Speaker 1: location where many people come in and out, and we

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Speaker 1: all know you cordon off the scene and start there.

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Speaker 1: But when you have something that that does not appear

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Speaker 1: to be a a forced entry, Dan Brophy still had

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Speaker 1: his wallet, his cell phones, and his car keys with him.

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Speaker 1: What are the things that we're looking for. Dan's practice,

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Speaker 1: according to you know, all of his colleagues, was to

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Speaker 1: leave the house early, early in the morning. He would

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Speaker 1: he'd had out for the culinary school and you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes arrive around five thirty. You imagine that, and you

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Speaker 1: know one of the reasons that you know, I'm a

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Speaker 1: college professor, it's you know, I don't have to show

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Speaker 1: up to do that sort of thing. This guy is

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Speaker 1: a hands on instructor. He he has to make sure

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Speaker 1: that everything is squared away in the kitchen. Uh, you

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Speaker 1: know that all of the food stuffs are laid out correctly,

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Speaker 1: that they have all of the utensils that they're gonna

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Speaker 1: need that day for the instruction that's going to be ongoing.

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Speaker 1: And it's a class set up, so it's labor intensive,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's remarkable what these guys go through, very

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Speaker 1: intense learning in this environment. So, you know, when we

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Speaker 1: think about that that initial theme of five thirty in

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Speaker 1: the morning, you have to begin to think that if

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Speaker 1: it didn't happen outside the building, which you would, you know,

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Speaker 1: think that if somebody's walking from there from their vehicle

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Speaker 1: to the entrance, that there would be maybe an effort

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Speaker 1: on the part of the victim initially to fight with

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Speaker 1: the person if they're if they're being held at the gunpoint,

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Speaker 1: you know that they know that they're going to be

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Speaker 1: killed or something like that. There's no evidence of that,

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Speaker 1: and then there's no evidence that the lock was jimmied

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Speaker 1: on the door. And here's here's another part to this

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Speaker 1: is that one of the things that Dan would do. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, in my opening I talked about how he

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Speaker 1: was a forger. Not only was he a forger, he

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Speaker 1: was considered by some a master gardener. I don't even

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Speaker 1: know what goes into that sort of thing, but he

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Speaker 1: would grow herbs and and one of the things that

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Speaker 1: we do know about these folks that teach in these

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Speaker 1: culinary environments, you don't get paid a lot of money,

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Speaker 1: so they would have side gigs that they would do.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that Dan would do is

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Speaker 1: that he would have a collection of homegrown herbs and

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Speaker 1: he would kind of bind these things together, I guess,

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Speaker 1: things like a regundo and sage and all these sorts

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Speaker 1: of things. And he would sell fresh herbs and he

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Speaker 1: would put them on a cart. It's like a handcart.

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Speaker 1: You see teachers using them lots of times. And you

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Speaker 1: know that cart was actually in the hallway. He had

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Speaker 1: all of his herbs set up out there and even

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Speaker 1: had his keys, you know, resting on this cart, which

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Speaker 1: gives you an indication that he was going about his

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Speaker 1: normal process. So there's no and someone walked in and

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Speaker 1: kind of strong armed it, you know, where they're throwing

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Speaker 1: a gun up in his face and he's doing things

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Speaker 1: that are outside of the norm. So as an investigator,

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Speaker 1: when you show up in this environment, you have to

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Speaker 1: begin to factor these things around, and sometimes the stuff

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Speaker 1: doesn't come to light until afterwards. You know, the cops

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Speaker 1: have no way of knowing when they show up at

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Speaker 1: the scene that his normal activity was to get this

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Speaker 1: card out with the herbs on it. Maybe he rested

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Speaker 1: his keys there. Normally that comes after the fact, after

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Speaker 1: you begin to interview people, so you know immediately you're thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: was this somebody that actually knew him that perpetrated this

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Speaker 1: horrible crime. As the police start to interview students who

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Speaker 1: showed up for class that day, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that police uncovered is the fact that the door was

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Speaker 1: still locked. We talked about no forced entry jone. Right

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Speaker 1: here is the classic tell tale sign the door was

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Speaker 1: still locked. It was Dan Brophy's routine as you're talking about,

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Speaker 1: to unlock the door. Were the students as he prepared

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Speaker 1: for the morning. So as they began to show up

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Speaker 1: for class that morning on June two, they knew something

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Speaker 1: was wrong. The students waited for a long time, but

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until another instructor let the classmates in that

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Speaker 1: they found Brophy's body. They say he was lying on

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Speaker 1: the floor by the sink. The water was running and

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Speaker 1: the lights were on. Students began to try to do cprs.

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Speaker 1: They made the call to nine one. So what does

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Speaker 1: all this tell us, Joe, With the fact that the

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Speaker 1: door was still locked, how did the perpetrator get away?

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Speaker 1: Just goes to you know, use that word, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of uh normal if if you will. And that's

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Speaker 1: a theme that you'll hear me talk about. I don't

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Speaker 1: care if people get tired of here. And that's something

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Speaker 1: that everyone will hear from me. And that's what makes

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Speaker 1: death investigations so unique and also so horrible is the

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Speaker 1: act that I'm not talking about us as investigators. I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about people going about their normal, day to day

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Speaker 1: business where they are always having to see the abnormal

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Speaker 1: in the context of the normal, you know, for them,

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Speaker 1: for those students that walked in and found their instructor, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, this, this person that they set at his

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Speaker 1: feet to learn from, you know, laying in this position.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine everything that was going through their mind.

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Speaker 1: They're trying to save their instructor's life. At this point,

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Speaker 1: they're doing chess compressions and everything, and he was gone

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Speaker 1: by this time. So whoever it perpetrated this crime had

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Speaker 1: done it in such a manner that there were no

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Speaker 1: signs of life left in his body at that moment

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Speaker 1: in time because he wasn't transported from the scene. They

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Speaker 1: worked the scene. And that's kind of a big tell

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Speaker 1: for us and investigations. That means that when ian s

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Speaker 1: might arrive, they know that there's no hope. So what

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Speaker 1: does that imply. That implies that there is a specific

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Speaker 1: mark her in time that has gone out. That means

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Speaker 1: no signs of even agonal respirations there. You might even

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Speaker 1: have changes after death at that point the body is

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Speaker 1: growing cool to the touch. But the question I think

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Speaker 1: is how did this individual leave the premises without anybody

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Speaker 1: being aware? How did the door kind of lock behind them? Um,

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Speaker 1: you know as they were exiting. Is there's some way

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Speaker 1: to manipulate that lock. And here's another big part to this.

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Speaker 1: How would they have known to have locked that door

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Speaker 1: unless they had intimate knowledge of not just Dan's activities

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Speaker 1: but the environment itself. One of the students who found

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Speaker 1: Dan Brophy began doing CPR, and she said that his

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Speaker 1: chest felt squishy her words, squishy. She thought she had

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Speaker 1: broken his ribs. Now, ultimately we know that he was shot,

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Speaker 1: So what would be the explanation for that link? Squish

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Speaker 1: It can arise from a couple of different places. First off,

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Speaker 1: you have the squishiness. If folks at home will just

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Speaker 1: imagine a fluid soaked sponge. If you've ever held a

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Speaker 1: fluid soak sponge, whether it's a bath sponge or you

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Speaker 1: know one that you keep on the on the sink

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Speaker 1: when you washing dishes, you know the consistency of that

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Speaker 1: it's wet and when you compress it, it has kind

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Speaker 1: of a squishiness to it. Um and that would mean

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Speaker 1: that the area was potentially very hemorrhagic. We know that

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Speaker 1: these injuries that Dan sustained went in to his chest.

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Speaker 1: That's very well documented. And when that happens. When that

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Speaker 1: happens um, you have something that occurs that's referred to

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Speaker 1: as plural effusion, which means if you have major organs,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't even necessarily have to be a major organ,

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Speaker 1: you can just clip a vessel and guess what happens.

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Speaker 1: At that point in time, that open space around the

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Speaker 1: lungs just begins to fill with blood. There's nowhere for

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Speaker 1: wor to go. Remember, it's it's no longer in the vessels.

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Speaker 1: You're bleeding out into this open space. So when she's

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Speaker 1: doing compressions like this, there could be a squishy feeling. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And even from bullet defects, you can have blood if

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Speaker 1: you can. Can you imagine this being a student and

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Speaker 1: you're doing chest compressions through the defects, You've got blood.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of it's almost like a font that's coming

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Speaker 1: up and spraying blood not spraying and sense of arterial spray.

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Speaker 1: It's not that dynamic, but the area outside of the

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Speaker 1: body is becoming super saturated with every compression that you do. Now,

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Speaker 1: another explanation for this is that if in fact, these

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Speaker 1: rounds were to pass through any of the bony structures,

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Speaker 1: when you begin to think about the sternal, which is

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Speaker 1: the large flat bane that's right in the center of

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Speaker 1: our chest, or the ribs to either side, those are

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Speaker 1: going to become fractured as well. Uh, just by the

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Speaker 1: impact of these rounds. Uh, that'll have kind of a

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Speaker 1: I guess a good way to describe it as a

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Speaker 1: squishing us to it too, because all of that area

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Speaker 1: as long as he is still living for a moment

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Speaker 1: or two, uh becomes uh super infused with hemorrhage around

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Speaker 1: that area, those those little areas under the skin are

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Speaker 1: becoming hemorrhagic. So that will lend itself to that as well.

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Speaker 1: So it's a bloody mess in the literal sense of

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Speaker 1: that term. I can I feel so sorry for the

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Speaker 1: student that had been doing this because it was absolutely

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Speaker 1: a horror show. We talked about this a lot in

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Speaker 1: death investigation, particularly where homicide is involved, you begin to

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Speaker 1: think about, you know, who could have been angry enough,

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Speaker 1: agitate it enough in order to bring an end to

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Speaker 1: somebody's life. In contrary what you see in even popular

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Speaker 1: media or in fictionalized novels, it's generally not some stranger

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Speaker 1: in a dark alley. It's going to be those individuals

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Speaker 1: that are in our immediate circle. And in this case,

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Speaker 1: Dan Brothy's wife, Nancy was arrested, yes she was. In fact,

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Speaker 1: she quickly became the only suspect in this murder. Police

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Speaker 1: found evidence leading back to Nancy Brophy and in fact,

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Speaker 1: the first thing which was a strike against her was

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Speaker 1: the title of her novel, How to Murder Your Husband.

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Speaker 1: I would have to imagine doing what you do for

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Speaker 1: a living, and me as well, being a journalist. One

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Speaker 1: of the things that we both do is ask questions.

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Speaker 1: When you throw a writer in with a forensics person,

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Speaker 1: that can be a dangerous combination. You're absolutely right about that.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to confess something here. I'm going to confess

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Speaker 1: one of my greatest fears. You don't find people doing

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Speaker 1: this very often because it shows you being weak. But

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna confess one of my greatest fears. I've been

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Speaker 1: involved in forensics and death investigations since I was a

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Speaker 1: very young man, since I was essentially years old. First

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Speaker 1: time I've walked on board, and people are always curious.

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Speaker 1: They're always curious. They they always want to know because

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Speaker 1: people are generally not around death. And for me, you know,

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Speaker 1: I inhabited the world of death for years and years

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Speaker 1: done to fear at what happened. And there any number

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Speaker 1: of times I've been called speaking public and of course

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Speaker 1: I do it on air a lot, and I would

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Speaker 1: go to these writers meetings. They would ask me to

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Speaker 1: come in and speak, you know, to crime writers want

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Speaker 1: to be you know, uh, fictional crime writers and that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. And there's always that little thing in

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Speaker 1: the back of my mind where I'm speaking to this

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Speaker 1: crowd and I they haven't been vetted, uh, And generally

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Speaker 1: they're there, you know, for their purposes. They want to

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Speaker 1: know about forensics and kind of how it all works

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Speaker 1: and this word thing. But there was always that little

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Speaker 1: thing in the back of my mind, is who exactly

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Speaker 1: am I educating on this audience? Is there are these

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Speaker 1: people here to try to learn about the mechanics of

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Speaker 1: forensics and certainly the science of it, and how they

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Speaker 1: can create this beautiful narrative where they create some kind

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Speaker 1: of mystery or do they want something else from me?

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Speaker 1: Do they want to try to figure out how to

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Speaker 1: get away with a perfect crime? So in answer to

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Speaker 1: your question, yeah, it's something that has always kind of

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Speaker 1: sat in the back of my mind and made me

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Speaker 1: quite fearful many times. You know, you kind of walk

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Speaker 1: out of the room after you've talked to him and saying,

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Speaker 1: maybe I should have said that. But to this, to

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Speaker 1: that point, I have, I have no evidence yet to uh,

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Speaker 1: to indicate that I've been in any way implicated in

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Speaker 1: any kind of almside out there yet. Well. Nancy Brothy's

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Speaker 1: self published romance How to murder your husband essentially ended

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Speaker 1: up not being admitted into twinal. The judge ruled that

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Speaker 1: it would be excluded. But there was lots of other evidence.

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Speaker 1: There was a timeline that didn't seem to add up

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Speaker 1: of where Nancy Brophy said she was to the surveillance

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Speaker 1: video Joe of traffic cameras that showed Nancy Brophy's minivan

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Speaker 1: in the streets around the institute close to the time

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Speaker 1: of the shooting. But she says she was nowhere near

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Speaker 1: the institute. So how did police go about putting all

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Speaker 1: of these things together to come up with a timeline

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Speaker 1: of how she could have done it? Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: and in this case, they lived obviously some distance away

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Speaker 1: from the institution, and you know there's always already one

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Speaker 1: vehicle that's there, and that's Dan's vehicle that he had

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Speaker 1: shown up early in the morning, you know, to begin work,

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Speaker 1: and you've got a very tight one to hear, you'd

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Speaker 1: have to have intimate knowledge of the comings and goings

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Speaker 1: not only of Dan. Guess what other population the students

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Speaker 1: and then Dan's colleagues there's shown up to work. So

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Speaker 1: when they saw her van, you know, kind of circling

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Speaker 1: in this area. When they went back and reviewed to

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Speaker 1: CCTV information it it did not marry up with the

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Speaker 1: times that she claimed. Um she was not there. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, you you've got a physical uh image of

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Speaker 1: her driving about moving around, uh shortly after Dan had

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Speaker 1: come into the location and began to set up for

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Speaker 1: the day, and you know, we've come to talk about that.

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Speaker 1: But you know, there were these these other issues that

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Speaker 1: had come up. She claimed that I think that she

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Speaker 1: had still remained in bed when Dan had left the house.

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Speaker 1: She had an awareness that he had left, apparently, but

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Speaker 1: she contends that she was, you know, in bed writing

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Speaker 1: that that's you know, we've already talked about how she

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Speaker 1: was writer. And then there was the issue of feeding

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Speaker 1: the chickens they kept. They kept chickens on their property there,

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Speaker 1: which is another kind of little aside relative to to

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Speaker 1: Dan in the world that he inhabited. Dan, I didn't

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Speaker 1: even know this kind of thing existed. I guess I

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Speaker 1: should have. But Dan was regarded as a master poultry

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Speaker 1: uh preparer, and one of the things about that is

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Speaker 1: you have to know how to slaughter chickens. And so

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Speaker 1: they actually had chickens on property there that would be

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Speaker 1: obviously to furnish eggs, but also to provide meat um

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Speaker 1: so that you could do dishes with these sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: So all of that did not marry up with the police,

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Speaker 1: and you have you have a suspect that is telling

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Speaker 1: you something that does not marry up with what the

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Speaker 1: police are sitting there, and I can see them all

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Speaker 1: sitting around a monitor before they ever approach her about this,

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Speaker 1: and they're establishing a timeline that's marrying up because you know,

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Speaker 1: every one of the cctv UH cameras as it's being recorded,

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Speaker 1: it's documenting that time over and over and against second

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Speaker 1: by second more working in linear time. And if you

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Speaker 1: go back and you begin to question a suspect in

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Speaker 1: this particular case, you know that there is it is

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Speaker 1: an empirical impossibility for her to have been in two

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Speaker 1: places at one time. In this case, she apparently was

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Speaker 1: riding around, scoping out the area, measuring the area for

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Speaker 1: who may or may not be there was Dan there

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Speaker 1: by myself. As that moment tim she apparently chose to strike.

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Speaker 1: Another very important piece of evidence that came into play

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Speaker 1: here was money. Money always seems to be a top

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Speaker 1: motivator from what we've seen covering cases for a very

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Speaker 1: long time now, and what we find out is that

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Speaker 1: Nancy Crampton Brophy had taken out life insurance policies on

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Speaker 1: her husband's name. Now, in general that's not you know,

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Speaker 1: most wives and husbands have insurance policies on each other.

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Speaker 1: But we find out that she took out ten different

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Speaker 1: life insurance policies in her husband's name that would give

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Speaker 1: her at his death more than a million dollars. So

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Speaker 1: what we find out is that Nancy Brokefy was in

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Speaker 1: money trouble. So many times we find out these cases

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Speaker 1: are rooted and financial gain and uh, you know, as

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Speaker 1: a financial investigator, if you if you bring somebody into

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Speaker 1: the case that that does forensic accounting for instance, and

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Speaker 1: has a real feel for numbers um particularly in the

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Speaker 1: world of insurance and those sorts of things they do,

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Speaker 1: they can run a balance sheet essentially. And it's kind

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Speaker 1: of an oversimplistic way of putting this, but you have

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Speaker 1: to understand, you know, how much is your life actually

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Speaker 1: valued at and your properties? You know, one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons that you that you have an insurance policy is

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Speaker 1: you want to make sure that your loved ones are

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Speaker 1: taken care of. But if you have, like for instance,

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Speaker 1: outstanding debts, particularly the biggest one in our life is

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Speaker 1: generally our mortgage, do you have sufficient amount of funds

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Speaker 1: to cover that, you know, say one lump sum that's

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Speaker 1: given to you and you can cover. But this, this

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Speaker 1: far exceeded what they're in to what there what their

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Speaker 1: balance sheet as a couple, blide it was. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is so far over the top that you have

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Speaker 1: to begin to understand that she's attempting to pay off debt.

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Speaker 1: And the sad part about it is that because she

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Speaker 1: put together these insurance policies and I think you had

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Speaker 1: mentioned that there were upwards of ten that she had

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Speaker 1: taken off that that's a huge red flag for investigators. Now,

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Speaker 1: like you said, it doesn't necessarily make you guilty of homicide,

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Speaker 1: but it is a circumstantial element, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: this case is circumstantials will get to it's a circumstantial

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Speaker 1: element that goes in to put together this entire piece

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Speaker 1: that we're looking about, the life that they lived, and

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Speaker 1: that's that's what this is all about. When you begin

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Speaker 1: to think, you know, we talked about the forensics of

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Speaker 1: it relative to the gunshot one's in the condition the scene,

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Speaker 1: but what is what are those factors leading up to

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Speaker 1: what's the motivation behind ending Dan's life. So we've laid

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Speaker 1: out an investigation here, we have a timeline that doesn't match,

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Speaker 1: we have a computer forensics timeline, we have money difficulties,

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Speaker 1: and then we come down to the last piece of

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Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence and that is a gun. One of the

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Speaker 1: biggest elements that comes about in a homicide is I

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Speaker 1: would imagine for the perpetrators they have to decide how

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Speaker 1: they're going to go about it. And I'm not talking

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Speaker 1: about Tommy and I'm not talking about are they going

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Speaker 1: to be able to have access to their to their target.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about how are they going to go about it?

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Speaker 1: How are they going to bring about the end of

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Speaker 1: somebody's life, What tool are they going to use? And

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Speaker 1: we cover a lot of things here. We talked about

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Speaker 1: blunt force injuries, we talked about sharp force injuries, we

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Speaker 1: talked about boy's names sometimes, but in this case, there

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Speaker 1: was very unique weapon that was involved in this case,

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Speaker 1: clock seventeen and the clock nineteen and a ghost gun.

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Speaker 1: Lots of things to uncover their job. But we're gonna

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Speaker 1: start back with the computer. In that Nancy Crimpton Brophy

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Speaker 1: research two guns online and then she purchased a gun

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Speaker 1: at a gun show. Now, her attorneys explained that Brophy

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Speaker 1: was working on a book about a woman who basically

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Speaker 1: got revenge on an abusive partner by killing him with

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Speaker 1: a gun assembled from pieces bought online, and in order

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Speaker 1: to make her story believable, Nancy Brophy had to be

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Speaker 1: able to do this and understand how to do this

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Speaker 1: to make her story credible. First off, Joe, how do

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Speaker 1: you do that? Why do you do that? And then

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Speaker 1: we'll get into a ghost gun. You know, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that we look for in forensics, UM are

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Speaker 1: what we referred to as ballistic signatures, and that is

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Speaker 1: and if our listeners would just you know, think about

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Speaker 1: those things that make us unique. Uh, it's a principal

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Speaker 1: in forensics that we refer to as individualization. And this

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Speaker 1: goes to the implements that are used in in perpetration

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Speaker 1: of a homicide. UM. You know, we began to think

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Speaker 1: about fingerprints, we begin to think about pattern injuries that

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Speaker 1: come about is being struck with some kind of blunt

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Speaker 1: force objects like a hammer. In this case, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about firearms, This ballistic fingerprint that comes down the line

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Speaker 1: um every barrel, if you will, every firing pin, every

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Speaker 1: extractor on a weapon leaves behind a definitive signature on

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Speaker 1: either an expended casing, which is in a semi automatic weapon,

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Speaker 1: it's that soft metal casing that is ejected out of

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Speaker 1: the port that's left behind by the extractor marks. And

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Speaker 1: of course, as the projectile is traveling down the barrel,

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Speaker 1: it kind of expands out in the barrel because of

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Speaker 1: the heat and the explosion that takes place, that little

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Speaker 1: miniature explosion, and it expands out into what were referred

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Speaker 1: to as the lands and grooves, which are the spiraling

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Speaker 1: features inside of the barrel that are actually um manufactured

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Speaker 1: in there, and it the spiraling creates stability in the

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Speaker 1: in the in the projectile. It also maintains power. You know,

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Speaker 1: years ago you had muskets that weren't rifled. Rifling, these

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Speaker 1: lands and grooves maintain that energy, so you have much

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Speaker 1: more power upon delivery as it exits. But the tradeoff

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Speaker 1: with this is that these spirals in there are unique

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Speaker 1: to individual weapons. And I'll give you an example. If

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Speaker 1: we if we have a weapon that comes from manufacturer

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Speaker 1: a and it's say a nine millimeter, and they make,

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Speaker 1: say three weapons in a run. Guess what each ballistic

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Speaker 1: signature of that three, even though they're manufactured at the

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Speaker 1: same time, is going to be unique to that weapon,

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Speaker 1: And much more so after those weapons make it make

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Speaker 1: their way out into the hands of individuals that purchase them,

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Speaker 1: that signature becomes more unique. And it's depended upon how

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Speaker 1: well you take care of the weapon, if you clean it,

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Speaker 1: what type of ammunition you're pushing through it, um and

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Speaker 1: also just day to day bumping around, and that can

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Speaker 1: impact the listic signature that's left behind. So every weapon

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Speaker 1: is unique. And that's one of the things that we

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Speaker 1: look for when we recover projectiles from bodies or say

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Speaker 1: that are embedded, and say that have passed through a

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Speaker 1: body and they embed themselves into walls or floors. We're

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Speaker 1: going there carefully extract those projectiles so that we can

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00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: look at the impressions that are left along the shaft

432
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: of this of this projectile and test fired through the

433
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: suspected weapon and see if those lands and grooves match up. Now,

434
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: there's one more piece that I talked about here. Something

435
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: else that is unique to a weapon is the firing

436
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: pin impression, and that is it almost looks like a

437
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 1: nail if you think about a firing pin and you're

438
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: talking about the tip of it as the weapon is

439
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,479
Speaker 1: charged essentially in order to fire, you know, kind of

440
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: cocked if you will. The weapon is cocked, and that

441
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: firing pin slams forward on the base of every one

442
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: of these bullets, intact and munition. There is what's called

443
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 1: a primer cap that's at the base. It's right in

444
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: the center. It's it looks like a bull's eye, and microscopically,

445
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: did you know that you can actually marry up the

446
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: tip of a firing pin to the strike point in

447
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: the center of that primary cap, and it is unique

448
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: to that firing pin. So you've got several points along

449
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: the way where you can match these things up. But

450
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: is that still possible given the fact that Nancy Brothy

451
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: bought multiple interchangeable parts for this gun. That's that's the

452
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: problem if you if you buy in this case, there

453
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,239
Speaker 1: was a glock, which is a particular manufacturing. People hear

454
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:49,959
Speaker 1: about it in the media all the time and an

455
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: entertainment you know, you hear about a glock weapon which

456
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: is an Austrian made weapon. She had a Clock seventeen

457
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: and she had a Clock nine. Team. Now they're both

458
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: nine millimeter weapons, which is the type of ammunition that's used.

459
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: And so the interesting thing about these two weapons is

460
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 1: that you can, even though they're different models. The seventeen

461
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: is actually longer than the nineteen, you can actually use

462
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: parts from the seventeen in the nineteen and kind of

463
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: vice versa on a limited a limited basis. However, However,

464
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 1: if you go out independently after having purchased these two

465
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: factory made weapons, you get into this weird world that's

466
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: referred to as the ghost gun environment. And you know,

467
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: for folks that don't understand what a ghost gun is,

468
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: this is an after market adaptation that you can go

469
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: out and purchase. Um, some people refer to them as

470
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: homemade guns, but they're available out there. They've been a

471
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: lable for years and years. And let me kind of

472
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: tell you how this works. If you think about a

473
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: semi automatic weapon such as in the Glock seventeen, it

474
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: has a slide on top of it, and you may

475
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: have seen this in movies where people will charge the

476
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: weapon by pulling the slide back and then it slams forward. Well,

477
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: when you pull that slide back, what you're doing is

478
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: in a very simplistic way, I'll just use this, because

479
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: the glock doesn't have a hammer, like an external hammer,

480
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: you're essentially cocking that weapon. Now, what happens is if

481
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: you buy a ghost gun, and in this case we're

482
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: talking about a barrel and a slide, you take the

483
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: manufactured barrel and slide off of the weapon. Okay, you

484
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: put it aside, and you take your ghost gun, which

485
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: fits the same frame, and you slide it on top.

486
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: And remember how I talked about earlier that these barrels

487
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: create unique signatures, Okay, unique signatures that are unique to

488
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: those particular barrels. Well, when you pump around through that thing,

489
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: you take the slide off of it, you take the

490
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: barrel off of it, which are the ghost gun, if

491
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: you will, and you put the factory the factory made

492
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: slide and barrel back on it. No one's gonna be

493
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: the wiser. You take the ghost gun parts. And I

494
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: don't know, I've been to Portland's. Portland's right by the

495
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: Pacific Ocean. You take that thing and you throw it

496
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: out there as far as you can, because at this point,

497
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: when the ballistic examination was done on both the seventeen

498
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: and the nineteen. They couldn't tie it back to either

499
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: one of those barrels. And this all comes down to

500
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: digital forensics because the police believe the police believe that

501
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: Nancy went on eBay, of all places, and purchased a

502
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: ghost gun. So this brings us back to that firing

503
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: pin that you were talking think about just a moment ago, Joe.

504
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,959
Speaker 1: They were not able to match that strike. Yeah, they're not.

505
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: And this is what's and I can only imagine for

506
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: firearms examiner. Some people refer to them as a ballistics

507
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: ballistic scientists and firearms examination. Um. I can only imagine

508
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: their frustration because they've got two cases. Remember Dan was

509
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: shot twice. His injuries were essentially uh in in the chest, okay,

510
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: and in the back. And here's a little something that

511
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: people might not know that don't deal in a world

512
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: of anatomy the way I do. We have both um

513
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: an anterior chest and a posterior chest. Physicians, when they're

514
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: doing an examination and autopsy, they generally don't say back,

515
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: they'll say posterior chest because they all kind of communicate

516
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: with one another. So for for our purposes, here, we'll

517
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: say he was shot in the anterior and posterior chest

518
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: at two rounds that that entered his body. They actually

519
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: recovered they actually recovered the spint casings. And can you

520
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: imagine the frustration that when they get there, uh and

521
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: they recover these casings, the police are probably thinking, oh, wow,

522
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: we've recovered the casings. The perpetrator of the person that

523
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: perpetrated this crime didn't stay around long enough to collect them,

524
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: and then they ride off into the sunset. No, they

525
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: left him behind. That's a big piece of evidence, and

526
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: it's something that when you're um an investigator and you're

527
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: working on unsold thomaside, that's one box you can tick

528
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: automatically say, oh, my gosh, we've got recovered casings at

529
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: the scene. That means that if we can get our

530
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: hands on a suspected weapon, we can pair that up

531
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: because we're looking at extraction marks, which when that slide

532
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: goes back in the process of firing, there's these extractors

533
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: that pull that pull these rounds out or pull the

534
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: spint casing out and it ejects it and they leave

535
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: these little strations on the side of the case. In

536
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: and strations is just a fancy term for little linear

537
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: marks that are on there, but they are unique to

538
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: a particular weapon. Okay, that is extractors contained within that slide.

539
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: They also couldn't match up the firing pin in this case,

540
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: again contained within the slide. And when you look at

541
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: the base of that bullet right there on that primer

542
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: cap and you look at it microscopically, it's when you

543
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: for people that are not familiar with microscopes, and you

544
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: know when you do comparison microscopes in the ballistic lab.

545
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: You begin to look down, uh, the the ocular viewer

546
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: and you can see down the long axis and you're

547
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: looking at that dented primer cap and it has features

548
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: like the moon that are unique, that are unique to

549
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: that particular event. And can you imagine they're test firing

550
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: it with similar ammunition and they're not generating the same

551
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: thing every time, so their frustration is really high. So

552
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: at at the close all they could do is put

553
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: this together circumstantially. Now, the interesting thing about a glock

554
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 1: weapon is that, out of all the other weapons that

555
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: are out there, glocks are unique, um and particularly from

556
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: years back, depending upon what generation of glock you bought,

557
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: they're the first weapon. A lot of people don't know this.

558
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: They're the first weapon that is actually formed out of

559
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: a plastic mold, and they're made with polymers which makes

560
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: them very very light. Their characteristics are unique. So when

561
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: you're looking at general classification as a ballistic scientist and

562
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 1: you're examined the thing, you can generally categorize the extraction marks.

563
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: You can generally categorize the rifling marks that are left

564
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: behind on a projectile, and even the firing pin marks,

565
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: and say, Okay, I might not know which glock this

566
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: came from, but I do know it came from a

567
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 1: glock as opposed to Smith and Wesson or a Ruger

568
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: or h K or a six hour or whatever you're

569
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: looking at. Know that this came from a clock, but

570
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: they just couldn't match it up to a specific one.

571
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 1: How technically apt do you need to be to be

572
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: able to assemble these gun parts to make a working gun.

573
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: We know that Nancy Brophy bought ghost gun parts online

574
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: and then she also bought a slide and barrel to

575
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: fit the glock that she already had. So how much

576
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: knowledge do you need to be able to make this

577
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: a working gun? I'll sum this up by making this

578
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: one statement, do you have a computer and do you

579
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: have access to YouTube? That's how simple it is. And

580
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: with about a fifteen minute tutorial you can learn how

581
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 1: to break down their whole categories within YouTube that teach

582
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: you how to clean a glock weapon. Any number of

583
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: the platforms that are out there the glock has created,

584
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 1: you can go and put in that particular type of clock.

585
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: And part of cleaning weapon is you have to break

586
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: the weapon down. Okay, so within about fifteen minutes you

587
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: can change it in and out. And I'm I'm sure

588
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: that you know. When she's planning this thing, she's you know,

589
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: she's saying, eureka, you know, because she bought this, this

590
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: ghost gun, if you will, and she already has these

591
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: two other platforms, and she looks at this thing and

592
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: she says, okay, well, everything's writing on this. You know,

593
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: all her quote unquote research is writing on this. She's

594
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: watched YouTube video. She sat there, she disassembles the manufacturer

595
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: made weapon, grabs that those ghosts elements, plots it on there,

596
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: charges the weapon and she looks at it and she

597
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: can dry fire it, and she knows right then her

598
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: task is accomplished and all it takes now is for

599
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: and I don't know that she did this, but all

600
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: it would take now is for her to go to

601
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: a firing range or somewhere out in the wilderness and

602
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 1: pop off a few rounds to get comfortable with this thing,

603
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: just to make sure that it works, just so that

604
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: she has maybe a fail safe in place, because I

605
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: don't know if she may have shown up with a

606
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 1: backup weapon. Remember she had two clocks. But it's very

607
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: easy to do. It's not like she has to be

608
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: even a gunsmith in order to do this. I think

609
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: that anybody that has access to the Internet could make

610
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: this happen very very easily. And I gotta tell you

611
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 1: it's a unique approach on her part to alibi herself

612
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: by saying that this was part of research, because again

613
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: back to what I said earlier about being fearful who's

614
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: out in the audience. It terrifies me. The slide and

615
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: barrel that Nancy Brothy bought online were never recovered, so

616
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: that basically means that there's no way to make an

617
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: identical match of the weapon that killed Dan Brophy, Right,

618
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 1: you are about that and not I would think that

619
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: if her case were to come up on. If her

620
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: case were ever to come up on appeal, one of

621
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: the major points of appeal could potentially be could potentially

622
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: be the circumstantial nature of the ballistics with this, because

623
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 1: there was no way that they could put that weapon

624
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 1: into her hand, firing that weapon and generating those unique

625
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: markings on those projectiles that brought Dan's life to an end.

626
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: I think that for me, that's that could be a

627
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 1: major point of contention on the part of her defense

628
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: team if they choose to move forward, uh with you know,

629
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: with with an appeal in her particular case, I think

630
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: that that would make it unique. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan

631
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: and this is Body Backs