1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,159 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of the Buck Sexton Show. 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: I have Michael Tracy with me now. He is a 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: journalist with really interesting opinions on foreign policy, a perspective 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: you're gonna want to hear, specifically on Ukraine. And he 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: also has a great substack, Michael Tracy Substack. Go check 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: it out. You can follow him on Twitter. Mister Tracy, 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: coming to us Live alf Deutschland. So now you're over 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: in Germany right now, let me let me start there. Actually, 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: what's the feeling in Germany about the largest war in 10 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: Europe in eighty years? Yeah, well, first off, greetings, I 11 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: would do a German greeting, but I'm just so pathetic 12 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: at even adopting like basics of the linguistic context that 13 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be in. And in part because you know, 14 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: coming to this conference, this was the Munich Security Conference 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: that just concluded in here in Munich where I am now, 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: and like, so it's all these people flying in from 17 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: all over the place, so there's not really an expectation 18 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: that you have to acclimate it all to the local customs. 19 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: So nobody really expects that you're going to speak German, 20 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: and they probably wouldn't anyway, frankly, but it was even 21 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: less of a burden to do so this time for 22 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: this trip, which is kind of embarrassing because now I 23 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: feel like an arrogant American. But when we have more time, 24 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: I'll tell you when I went to a Swedish counter 25 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: terrorism conference and ended up partying late night at a 26 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: nightclub with Danish, Swedish and I think Finish federal police, 27 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: so you know, fun things could happen in that part 28 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: of the world. Okay, So how do they feel or 29 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: what's the sort of tenor or what's the just general 30 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: sense that you can pick up from the conference. Well, 31 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: first of all, I should disclose that the whole system 32 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: that this conference had set up for press was quite peculiar, 33 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: and you'd almost get a sneaking suspicion that they didn't 34 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: really particularly want the press to have full access to 35 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: the conference so they could make inferences about what the 36 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 1: tenor was. So just let me explain it to you 37 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: real quick, because this is amazing, And no journalists who 38 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: I spoke to at this conference had ever seen or 39 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: experience anything like it, or even heard of it, So 40 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: as best I can tell, it's like an unprecedented thing, 41 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: at least for this particular conference, and maybe just you know, 42 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: conferences of this sort writ large, with this being you know, 43 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: a pre him and security conference for the you know, 44 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: basically you know, the rules based international order. So you 45 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: have to sign up ahead of time to get a 46 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: press credential, which is standard. But once you arrive and 47 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: our issue the press credential, you can't just then waltz 48 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: in to the venue as you might anticipate, right. You 49 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:53,839 Speaker 1: have to go to a press sort of monitor or 50 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: a selection of staff who have this booth or this 51 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 1: room set up, and in order to get into the 52 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: main venue, which is a hotel right in the center 53 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: of the old city of Munich. In order to get 54 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: into the hotel, you then you have to declare a 55 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: specific purpose or a specific destination or a specific task 56 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: for why you're entering the hotel number one and then 57 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: number two. You also have to be escorted the entire time. 58 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: They actually call it an escort system, that you're in 59 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: the hotel by one of these like twenty year old 60 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:33,119 Speaker 1: German guys who they have lined up ready to accompany 61 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: journalists as like a chaperone or a babysitter and you know, 62 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: you could try to lose them. I've heard of instances 63 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: where like journalists where it's able to sneak away and 64 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: like you know, hide in the bathroom or something to 65 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: have a bit of free access. But you know, they 66 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: were pretty you know, insistence on making sure that you 67 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: never left their site, and it was very odd, definitely 68 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: not the embodiment of press freedom that you would expect 69 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: based on the rhetoric of these people where they're always 70 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: talking about how we have to stand up for liberal 71 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: values and defend the rules based in international order because 72 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: we cherish principles like you know, freedom of the press, 73 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: whereas these authoritarian countries they cracked down the press, which 74 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: you know is true in certain respects, but that tends 75 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: to kind of obscure, how you know. Also the high 76 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 1: minded liberal order countries or entities can engage in a 77 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: bit of chicanery themselves in that respect. Um, But that's 78 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: just a little bit of a sort of ephemera of 79 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: people are curious. So how freaked giants and good excess, 80 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: How freaked out of the Germans about the war in 81 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: Ukraine right now? Or rather, what's the opinion of the 82 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: Germans about the war in Ukraine. Well, so there is 83 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: a new or new Ish Defense Minister who came into 84 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: office in January. His name is Pistorius and he entered 85 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: that position right around the time when there was that 86 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: whole hubbub about whether Germany would send these leopard tanks 87 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: to Ukraine. And then there had to be a deal 88 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: struck between the Biden administration and German Chancellor Shoals for 89 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: the US to at least pledge in theory to send 90 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: m one Abram's battle tanks, whereas in the meantime to 91 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: so as to enable in the meantime Germany to send 92 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: these leopard tanks. And you know, just going based on 93 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: the rhetoric of the of the new Defense Minister and 94 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: also the Foreign Minister, which is a woman who's from 95 00:05:54,960 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: the Green Party, babback there getting almost very conspicuously strident 96 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: in the rhetoric, because you would expect, in ordinary circumstances 97 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: Germany to be among the more resistant countries in one 98 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 1: of these like transatlantic coalitions. So it would be the US, 99 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: the UK, you know, maybe the Baltic States and Poland 100 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: and so forth, at least in the context of Ukraine 101 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: being most strident and most aggressive in pushing certain measures 102 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: that they would like to take in terms of the 103 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: conflict with Russia, whereas Germany and you know, to some 104 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: extent France would be more wary, right given for a 105 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: variety of historical reasons. Also you know Italy and so 106 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: forth would be in that category. But what's notable now, 107 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: and this is sort of a break with precedent or 108 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: a break with what have been the more conventional expectation, 109 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: is the rhetoric is hardening even with the German officials 110 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: like Pistorius. The Defense Minister gave it speech or to 111 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: clared at one of his appearances at this conference, that 112 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: Ukraine must win. He gave like a maximalist declaration as 113 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: to what must happen militarily in the war for victory 114 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: to be achieved, which is beyond the kind of declarations 115 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: that you would have gotten even maybe just six months 116 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: ago from the German government. And in terms of the 117 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: woman who's the Foreign minister, Babback, she's been one of 118 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: the most hardcore advocates of accelerating the kind of interventionist 119 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: policy in Ukraine from the outset, which is ironic because 120 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: she's a member of the ruling coalition as a Green 121 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: Party member. So the Green Party is one faction within 122 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: the ruling coalition of Shoals, right, and so they have 123 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: Green Party members that get appointed to high positions of state, 124 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:57,559 Speaker 1: such as Foreign Minister. And she's been agitating for months 125 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: and months and months for Shoals to be more assertive, 126 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: more you know, antagonistic toward Russia essentially. And why is 127 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: that ironic? Well, first of all, the Green Party is 128 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: kind of would have what most people probably would have 129 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: thought for a year ago, the Dovish Party, right, like 130 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: the peace Nick Crunchy Party, where you know, they'd rather 131 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: like strum an acoustic guitar and sing Kumbaya than do 132 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: anything even related whatsoever to the military. Um. But they're 133 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: among the most strident now. And why think that is? 134 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: And if you look at their wait, why is it's interesting? Yeah? Um? 135 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: Why is it? Yeah? It's a good question. And it 136 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: also relates to why the Democratic Party is so unified. 137 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: That was my next question. There's a more dissension and 138 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 1: among the Republicans even though they're like, there's definitely a 139 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: majority support for the policy, but there's a little bit 140 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: more dissension, right, Um, Yeah, because I think it has 141 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: to do with this, with the ideological contours of the 142 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,719 Speaker 1: war that have been imparted onto it, or they look 143 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: at the conflict, meaning just the generic liberal kind of 144 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: mainline opinion, especially within elite circles. They look at the 145 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: conflict in Ukraine and they heighten like the cosmic significance 146 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: of it to the point where they're imbuing it with 147 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: these dimensions of some sort of you know, apocalyptic battle 148 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: between authoritarianism and democracy, or fascism and liberalism, or one 149 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: of these like grand ideological crusades. Right. That's why they're 150 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: always invoking World War Two. That's why World War two, now, 151 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: more than at any point that I've been alive anyway, 152 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: is still be the most potent analogy and kind of 153 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: conferring moral salience. Yeah, this is a good versus evil conflict, 154 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: is the basics of it. This is this is the 155 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: good guy, the bad guy, the cowboy and the white hat, 156 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: the cowboy and the black hat. Putin is Hitler, Right, 157 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: That's that's how this is lined up. Yeah, and they 158 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: also then can relate that to their domestic political foes, right, 159 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: because you know, in the US, I don't have to 160 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: tell you it's not just it's not just the determination 161 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: to stop Putin. That's informing the fury with which a 162 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: lot of Democrats approaches this ue. It's that it also 163 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: they also view it as connecting or you know, intersecting 164 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: with their domestic struggle against insurrectionists and fascists and you know, 165 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: white nationalists and so forth, because Trump was seen as 166 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: this colluder of Putin's right, and so Putin was depicted 167 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: starting in twenty and sixteen. Really and Hillary Hillary Clinton, 168 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: believe it or not, initiated this, or I don't know 169 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: why you wouldn't believe it. I'm sure you would. She 170 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: sort of initiated this conception of Putin that was sort 171 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: of new circle of twenty and sixteen that he wasn't 172 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: just this you know, revanchist Russian former KGB agent who 173 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: we had to be suspicious of, right he was also 174 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: this like exporter of right wing authoritarianism and trying to 175 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: undermine liberal democracy by subverting the rules based international order 176 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: to demodological interventions. To democrats, there is a Putin Trump 177 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: axis of evil, if you will, I mean, this is 178 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: what this is what they've created over the years of 179 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: the Trump over the Trump presidency, and now it's extended 180 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: and I do remember with some of the not just hyperbole, 181 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: but the outright fabrications from the Trump from the Trump 182 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: era about Russia and putin specifically some people, and I 183 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: believe you were among them, if I remember from your Twitter, 184 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: we're warning, hey, maybe just creating Russia as this almost 185 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: cartoonishly evil country that is trying to destroy America from 186 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: within and with fate, whether it's be a Facebook or democracy, 187 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: maybe this will have long term foreign policy implications. I 188 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: think we're actually already seeing some of those foreign policy 189 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: implications right now, and I want to return to that 190 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: in a second. And also the notion of this doesn't 191 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: stop till Russia loses what does that actually look like? 192 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: But I want to take a moment for our sponsor here, 193 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: because if you're a Team Mobile subscriber, they're investigating a 194 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: data breach that expose a sensitive personal information of thirty 195 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: seven million customers right after the New year. Cyberhackers grab 196 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: data without notice. 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UM, I feel 217 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: like we're being told a lot of contrary, because because 218 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: I really want to drill down into the what the 219 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: strategy is that kind make a quick kind of make 220 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: a quick point about the ideological dimensions that I wanted 221 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: to make, and then we'll move on to the other 222 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: stuff before I forget. I think it's like scene setting. 223 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: Sorry to interrupt, but nah, man free following, go forward, 224 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: go forward? What do you got? Usually I'm just free 225 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: flowing nonsense out of my mouth and people have to 226 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: tell me the side. Every so often there was I'll 227 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: just ramble for hours on in terms of the ideological 228 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: dimension Right. I think the whole the reason why liberals 229 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: are and even leftists some degree like you would associate 230 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: with a Green Party, have been so enlivened by this 231 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: conflict is because it fits so perfectly into their pre 232 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: existing sort of ideological warfare that they were already waging 233 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: even if there had been no invasion last February. Right. 234 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: But that's not the full story, Right, That just one 235 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: component as to why the consensus around this issue is 236 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: so intractable. You also have other factions of ideological consensus, 237 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: as represented for example by Poland or the government of Poland, 238 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: where you have a socially conservative party in power, the 239 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: Law and Justice Party, rather conservative country overall, at least 240 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: relative to the rest of Europe, and they're among the 241 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: most vehement, if not the most vehement, in terms of 242 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: supporting the more and more aggressive measures in Ukraine and 243 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: being really beating the drum harder and harder. I mean, 244 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: that's where Biden is right now, right where he just 245 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: gave a speech, So that that I think that fervor 246 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: that Poland exhibits kind of comes from a different ideological angle. 247 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: But again, the reason why the consensus is so potent 248 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: is because you have like different interlocking ideological schools of 249 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: thought that can become equally sort of vigorous in their 250 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: support for this particular cause. So you asked me just 251 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: to answer quickly, what is like the tenor at this 252 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: security conference, because obviously I was able to do stuff 253 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: and talk to people and whatever, notwithstanding the ridiculous press restrictions. 254 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: I would just summarize it as it's like an ideal 255 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: ideology overload, Like it's people overdosing on these ideological intoxicants 256 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: that they've been hopped up on for a year from 257 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: whatever particular direction where to the point where they almost 258 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: can't be reasoned with in many respects, and they're just 259 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: full steam ahead toward a particular end goal that they 260 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: can't quite articulate. I have theories as to what the 261 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: end goal actually is. Maybe we'll get to it. But yeah, 262 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: that's just basically how I would answer it. It's just 263 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: this really strong, to say, to put it mildly, fervor 264 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: that has overtaken this like Western so called security establishments, 265 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: such that they're really radicalizing rapidly in a whole variety 266 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: of areas, even once that are just tangentially related to Ukraine, 267 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: like they essentially institutionally endorsed regime change in Iran as 268 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: well at this conference. And then there's this whole China 269 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: issue that is kind of, you know, trending in the 270 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: same direction. So it's um, yeah, no, no, it's so 271 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: so I want you to tackle this for me. You have, 272 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: on the one hand, in Wall Street Journal recently editorial said, 273 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: not only should we give them, meaning Ukraine, another ninety 274 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: billion or whatever whatever they need, we should just send 275 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: the f sixteens now because why wait, because we're just 276 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: this whole incremental game. What's the point. And on the 277 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: one hand, you have them saying effectively this national security apparatus, 278 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: that Western national security apparatus that the US is leading, 279 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: and obviously NATO's as the other big component of it, 280 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: saying or making it seem at least like there's really 281 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: no real risk here of anything getting going really bad 282 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: for US. And yet on the other side you have 283 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: Zelenski saying, if China is support if China does for 284 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: Russia what we are doing for Ukraine and even a 285 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: fraction of what we're doing for Ukraine, Zelenski said, that 286 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: will start World War three. Well, how is one in 287 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: an escalation to World War three and the other has 288 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: no risk of anything bad happening. That's that's what I'm wondering. 289 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: How they can make sense of this for me? Right, 290 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what Zelenski meant by that, because 291 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: he could have meant it in a sort of more 292 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: superficial sense, and that if China did become a bonified 293 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 1: co belligerent in the sense that it was furnishing Russia 294 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: with armaments that it would be using Ukraine, it would 295 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: sort of just expand the geographical remit of the conflict 296 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: to the point where you could say it's now a 297 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: global conflict. Is that what he meant by World War 298 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: three or does he say that or is he suggesting 299 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: if there's gonna be some like you know, Pacific Theater 300 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: opened up in the war, and it's going to be 301 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: something more recognizable as But even either one of those 302 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: would be as the point, Yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, I mean, 303 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: I think there's a conventional wisdom now that's congealed around 304 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: the idea of escalation or whether there's risk in kind 305 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: of ramping up these weapons provisions and going further and 306 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: further with the tactics employees. Remember, it's not just the weapons. 307 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: People don't I think fully appreciate this or appreciate this enough. 308 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: It's such that the US is dispatching this endless supply 309 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: of weaponry in an unprecedented like you know, arms funneling 310 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: operation that as soon as March of last year dwarfed 311 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,959 Speaker 1: the most recent precedent, which had been under Terry Truman 312 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: in terms of unarmed supply operation in Europe. Now it's like, 313 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: I guess, you know, it just has no precedent at 314 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: all really that we can reasonably sort of invoke to 315 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: kind of contextualize what this mission is. But it's not 316 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: just the weapons themselves. It's this, it's the operational coordination 317 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: of the warfare itself that the US is first and 318 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: foremost undertaking in Ukraine. Remember when Ukraine launched its counter 319 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: offenses last August and September, right where that that we're 320 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: more successful than maybe people thought, and they took back 321 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: a fair amount of land around you know, Karkieve and 322 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: then later her song. It was reported in the New 323 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: York Times and elsewhere. Shortly thereafter that the US generals 324 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: literally were involved in the process of drawing up the 325 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: war plans themselves. Right, So it wasn't just we send 326 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: Ukraine a couple of javelin missiles and hope for the best, 327 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: you know, and you know, wish them good luck in 328 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: coming up with tactical plans. No, the US is intimately 329 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: evolved in creating and formulating and then executing those tactical 330 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: tactical plans. Because some of the systems we're giving them 331 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: also require require US training and active monitoring and assistance. 332 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: So some of these weapons hand someone in ak and 333 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: say go shoot the enemy. That's one thing you give 334 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: them a patriot missile battery. There has to be US 335 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: training and US support for that to actually function right right. 336 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the reasons that the Biden administration 337 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 1: had cited as to why they were not going to 338 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: send those Patriot batteries that he announced in December. But 339 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: when they were asked about this, meaning when Pentagon officials 340 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: were asked about this, you know, last March or so, 341 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: would the US entertain the idea of sending Patriot batteries 342 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: to Ukraine, It was dismissed as just a nonstarter because 343 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: to operate those Patriot batteries, these Pentagon officials said, would 344 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: require US forces on the ground, and we don't want 345 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: US forces on the ground. That's what Biden says, is 346 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: the red line that the United States is not going 347 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: to cross policy wise. And then sure enough, you know, 348 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: like nine months later, the Patriot batteries are deployed. Now, 349 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: who knows who's going to be operating those I mean, 350 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: do I doubt that Ukrainian soldiers can garner the knowledge 351 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: necessary to at least in part operate the missiles. No, 352 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily doubt that, But I don't know for sure, 353 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: You and I and nobody knows what the actual operational 354 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: ratement will be in the management and opera and execution 355 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: of those well to be what they're set up from 356 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 1: my previous life, I mean our patriots system. Someone has 357 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: to train them and to your point, they could learn 358 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: how to do it themselves, but there has to be 359 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 1: active assistance in that phase of getting them up to 360 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: speed so they can operate. What is a complicated and 361 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: very expensive weapons system. Is it your perception? I feel 362 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: like the biggest um, the biggest debate right now, or 363 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: maybe maybe the center of the problem is absent US 364 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: troops in Ukraine. I think the perception of a national 365 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: security apparatus is putin won't do anything to us or 366 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: to escalate unless we actually send in troops. Therefore, why 367 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: not send f sixteens abrams to like the whole all 368 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: of it. Just go with all of it? Are they right? 369 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: You know? I think that that logic is actually coherent, 370 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: meaning I wouldn't endorse that logic necessarily. But if you 371 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: do believe, say that it is true that houton will 372 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: not escalate short of some sort of more overt, unambiguous 373 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 1: direct US military intervention, then they have a point when 374 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: they're saying it doesn't make a whole lot of sense 375 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: to deploy these different weapons systems so incrementally and haltingly right, 376 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: because you're saying that that's all under the escalation threshold, 377 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 1: So why not just do it all at once rather 378 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: than yeah, you know, dither for for months now. I 379 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: don't think that's necessarily an accurate assessment. But if that 380 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: is your assessment, then at least it's internally coherent to 381 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,719 Speaker 1: make that argument. But my question is, do you think 382 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: that's an accurate assessment? Well, I don't think there's really 383 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: a basis to believe it's accurate. Here here's the conventional 384 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: wisdom that seems to have emerged around this question of 385 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: escalation and so called red lines, which I hate because 386 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: it's a cliche, and I guess I just hate all cliches, 387 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: but this one in particular because it like obscures the 388 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: gravity of the subject matter in a lot of ways. 389 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: They think that because there's there's, you know, conventional wisdom 390 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: now among people who will always wanted to escalate anyway, 391 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 1: so they were going to try to like fashion whatever 392 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: arguments they could to justify that. But those people now 393 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: have like settled on this sort of circumstantial argument or 394 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,479 Speaker 1: this argument based on what's happened so far, the conflict 395 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: where they're saying, look, you know back in the fall, 396 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: there was that period in October where Putin seemed to 397 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: allude to the idea of potentially using the Russian nuclear 398 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: arsenal for some sort of reprisal. He didn't make a 399 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: direct threat, but you know, there's a clear allusion to it. 400 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: It was in actually the speech that he gave him 401 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: September twenty first, he announced the annexation of those four 402 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: new Oblasts, right, And so then you know, Russia annexes 403 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: the Oblasts. They have these so called referenda, which I 404 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: don't think necessarily would hold up to scrutiny if you 405 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: wanted to sort of decipher what it means to have 406 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: a free, fair election. They're under older occupation. That's sort 407 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,360 Speaker 1: of a separate issue. But so then no, Russia then 408 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 1: formally declares that those four Oblasts are part of Russia, right, 409 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: and they also assert that the Russian nuclear arsenal can 410 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: be used in the event that parts of Russia are 411 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 1: existensionally threatened. Now you have parts of Russia that are 412 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: in a hot war zone. So theoretically based on what 413 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: is understood to be their nuclear doctrine, although who knows 414 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: what the actual nuclear doctrine is. I mean mean, people 415 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: just kind of pontificate somehow. There are more people in 416 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: the United States, like on CNN who are experts on 417 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: the Russian nuclear doctrine in the American doctrine. I don't 418 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: know how that came about. Yeah, but it is true 419 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: that those territories were incorporating too Russia, and you could 420 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: make like a theoretical argument if you're Russia, that the 421 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: nuclear nuclear use is warranted to defend those oblasts. They 422 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: think that, meaning these national security types and whoever would 423 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: be of the sort that would populate like Immuniq security 424 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: conference there. They've convinced themselves that because or as they're 425 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: claiming to be convinced that because Putin's red line was 426 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: crossed in that the United States didn't back off from 427 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: like Zappariga Oblast and whatever when he annext them and 428 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: made them part of Russia, that that means his whatever 429 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: red lines he suggests that he has, or that might 430 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: even postulated that he has, They're they're not really there 431 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: and it's just all a bluff, and so that gives 432 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: us license. These people say to themselves just press on 433 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: even more aggressively forward, because when we know that Putin 434 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: really is all talk now, I think that that makes 435 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: no sense because Putin not doing a nuclear reprisal just 436 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: because one so called red line wasn't crossed, doesn't mean 437 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,239 Speaker 1: he wouldn't do it for an additional one. Like one 438 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: doesn't that one thing doesn't lead to the other. There 439 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 1: in the logical construction, it's just like an assumption or 440 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: a conjecture. And second, you don't even know I mean 441 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: these people don't even know what a red line is. 442 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: I mean they use that term because Obama said it 443 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: once at a press conference in twenty twelve regarding Syria, 444 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 1: and then it just became this like constantly invoked cliche 445 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: that really has no tangible content to it other than 446 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: what people are speculating might be like the point of 447 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: no return for a certain world leader. In like military 448 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: and national security analysis circles. It is used all the time. 449 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 1: And when they talk about war gaming, which is another 450 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: thing by the way, that doesn't I've partaken in war 451 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: games in my past life, I've seen and the problem 452 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: with war games is not a game, and so you 453 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: have no idea how the war is actually going to go. 454 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: Gives you at best a very rough approximation of how 455 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: conventional force on force would react if the following dependent 456 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: variables are all true. That I'll said, on even just 457 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 1: the redlines issue, the notion that there is an axiomatic 458 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: where that there's a dogmatic and immediate response that you 459 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: would get from an action independent of everything everything else 460 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: going on, I think that is it is a problematic 461 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: way of thinking about it, right. I mean, they could say, well, 462 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: redline as if someone goes to take the capital city 463 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: or something. Well, I mean certain redlines are so obvious 464 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: you don't need to say them, and others I think 465 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: would be more situational, which brings us back into Ukraine 466 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: and what Putin is willing to do here in order 467 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: to see this thing through, which I think, by the way, 468 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: is Hell'll see it through with whatever he can, however 469 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: he can. I wanted to ask you go ahead, sorry, 470 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: I was just gonna make a quick point on that 471 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: and the certainty that these people have meaning like this 472 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: conventional Natzec community, who I think probably the one demographic 473 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: on Earth that I can most confidently say is just 474 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: full of crap, almost twenty four to seven and almost 475 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: universally with so few exceptions that like, they don't even 476 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: really factor into whether you can just declare them universally 477 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: full of crap. One thing that they don't factor into 478 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: this whole newfound certain city that they have about Putin's 479 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: becklessness or how he's really just you know, feinting when 480 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: he suggests that there could be red lines, is we 481 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: have plentiful evidence that there have been escalatory tit for 482 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: tat exchanges between the United States and Russia that have 483 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: heightened the intensity of the conflict. Right and here, let's 484 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: just to give one example. And when I say the 485 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: US and Russia, you know, I'm including Ukraine within the 486 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: US side of that dichotomy because Ukraine only exists as 487 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: a state right now because of the sponsorship of US, 488 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: and not even just the military portion of the Ukrainian 489 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: state either the civil state as well, like the USA, 490 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: I d is just paying all the state pensions and 491 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: benefits of state employees in Ukraine. But that's side issue. 492 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: But when Ukraine, remember it did that truck bombing attack 493 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: on the Kirch Bridge in Crimea in October, which was 494 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: odd because or odd from the standpoint of it had 495 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: certain kind of classical markers of what we've come to 496 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: believe would constitute a terrorist attack, but of course it 497 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: wasn't called that at all in Western media because that 498 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: would impune Ukraine and can't do that because you know, 499 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: the high principle always is to be a partisan for 500 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: one of the warring parties rather than be you know, 501 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: truthful about stuff. Sends to be the case with warfare, 502 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: at least as I have observed it. When that happened, 503 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: which is obviously a fairly adventurous or audacious act on 504 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: the Ukraine Special forces part given the kind of centrality 505 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: of Crimea to like what seems to be Putin's sort 506 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: of conception of his sort of historical epoch as leader 507 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: of Russia, and that bridge is one that he personally 508 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: oversaw the construction of and opened it relatively recently. Once 509 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: that happened, Russia did escalate in turn. So that was 510 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: an escalation in the sense that it like opened up 511 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: sort of a new sphere of warfare and a new, 512 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: newly audacious sort of tactic of warfare. And then Russia 513 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: did the same in that it reciprocally then began what 514 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: became a months long campaign of bombing civilian infrastructure in Ukraine, 515 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: the electrical grids and whatever. It was not even not 516 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: even ambiguous if that was portrayed by Russia as at 517 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: least in part retaliation for the truck bombing on the bridge. Right, 518 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: So when people in these national security cliques say that, oh, 519 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: the red lines are all of bluff, we've you know, 520 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: Putin has belied with his actions, any idea that we 521 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: should be concerned about this in terms of esculatory potential. 522 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: What they I think willfully or I think they're or 523 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: even either they willfully ignore or they're so ideologically intoxicated 524 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: that they can't bring themselves to even be able to 525 00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: perceive it anymore. What they're not mentioning is that there 526 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: is a huge array of evidence that there is this 527 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: kind of center synergetic esculatory dynamic in Ukraine where we 528 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: do we can anticipate that Russia will escalate given escalatory 529 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: behavior that you know us, the US does, or that 530 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: Ukraine does in tandem with the US. So that dynamic exists. 531 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: It's just a point of like how high does the 532 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: escalatory ladder reach to the point where it becomes something 533 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: truly kindaclismics such as nuclear use. I want to come 534 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: back to the very important I would argue central question 535 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: of is this all from the US perspective and what 536 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: the Bide administration has done to this point a massive blunder. 537 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: But hold that for a second. I want to come 538 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: back to it. I want to talk about the tone 539 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: of the Towers Foundation for a second. Born from the 540 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: tragedy of nine to eleven, the tone of the Towers 541 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: Foundation has been honoring America's heroes ever since. The Foundation 542 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: honors fallen and severely injured heroes in their families with 543 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: mortgage free homes. This year alone, hundreds of gold Star 544 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: on fallen first responder families with young children and our 545 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 1: nation's most severely injured veterans and first responders are receiving homes. 546 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: More than five hundred homeless veterans received housing and services 547 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: last year. More than fifteen hundred receiving houses and services 548 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: this year. This coming Memorial Day, all the brave men 549 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: and women law since nine to eleven in the War 550 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: on Terror are having their names read aloud in a 551 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: Tunne of the Towers ceremony in our nation's capital. To 552 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: the tunne of the Towers nine eleven Institute, the Foundation 553 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: is educating kids in kindergarten through twelfth grade about our 554 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 1: nation's darkest day. Join talleth the Towers on its mission 555 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: to do good, Please help America to never forget its 556 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: greatest heroes. Join me in donating eleven dollars a month 557 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: the Tunnel of the Towers at t twot dot org. 558 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 1: That's t the number two t t twot dot org. 559 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: All right, mister Michael Tracy. Is this a massive blunder 560 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: in the making the US role in the Ukraine Russia War? 561 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: Or is this something that can drag on and it 562 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: will just be another budget item that some people complain 563 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: about but eventually no real consequences. Well, I guess it 564 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: depends on what the desired outcome is or what objective 565 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: is being pursued. Because given the objective that was articulated 566 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: around when the war started, or at least in the 567 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 1: first several months, you could make an argument that far 568 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: from being a blunder, it's actually been a grand success 569 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: in that when Lloyd Austin and Anthony B. Lincoln first 570 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: made their triumphant entrance into Ukraine after the war started 571 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: in April, Austin made a comment that became fairly well 572 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: known and widely remarked upon where he said that one 573 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: of the chief aims of US policy in Ukraine was 574 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: not merely to enable Ukraine to achieve victory on the battlefield, 575 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: but to quote we in Russia. And unless you think 576 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: the Secretary of Defense is just off his rocker and 577 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: freelancing without any sort of authorization or without commenting on 578 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: a policy ambition that really does exist, I think it 579 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: was fair at the time and still fair now to 580 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: believe him when he says that is a goal of 581 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: US policy. Right. And there was also a column that 582 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: was published by Neil Ferguson and Bloomberg in March of 583 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: last year where he claimed to have overheard a Biden 584 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: administration official blabbing at some function where the official blurted 585 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: out that the whole point of this Ukraine interventions policy 586 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: was to quote bleed Russia dry, Right, which then kind 587 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: of gives a little bit more explanatory power to why 588 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: certain decisions have gone the way they have. Right. So 589 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: we talked before about the people who are complaining about 590 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: the laxity of the deployment of different weapons systems. Right, 591 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: they want it done faster, and they don't want any 592 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: sort of more hindrances in terms of which styles of 593 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: weapons can be sent. Well, if your whole object is 594 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: to just bleed, rush, or dry, then maybe your idea 595 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 1: would be to just prolong the conflict and escalate it 596 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: incrementally and gradually, rather than dumping everything into the war 597 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: zone at once, because the idea is just to have 598 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: Russia burn its resources and eventually weaken it to the 599 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: point that something can be done in terms of potentially 600 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: fostering regime change or some other resolution. So yeah, in 601 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: terms of a blunder from a more i guess substantive perspective, 602 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: so kind of doing away with like whatever framework the 603 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: actual advocates of the intervention have adopted for themselves that yeah, yeah, 604 00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: well yeah, or like what is what will reduce the 605 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 1: incidents of just mass death and suffering and destruction. I 606 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: always get a kick out of these people who have 607 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: been hardcore champions of US interventionist foreign policy because in 608 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: Ukraine they've gotten their way. I mean, they always erect 609 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: these boogeyman of isolationists as though everybody's kind of, you know, 610 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: chopping at the bit. These isolationists are all chopping at 611 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: the bit to just undercut US policy because they're so 612 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: sinister and they have such outside influence, whereas I mean, 613 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: there's no isolationist. Isolationism is not the policy of the 614 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,799 Speaker 1: US is following in Ukraine right now. Certainly the interventionists 615 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 1: have gotten their way. I mean, there's a massive, sprawling, 616 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: multidimensional intervention as of as we speak in Ukraine, and 617 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 1: it's been going on for a year, and it's escalating 618 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: pretty much by the week. But they'll they'll sort of 619 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 1: posture as having the moral high ground. Right, So, the 620 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: people who maybe are skeptical of intervention in US foreign policy, 621 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: they're morally blighted, they're sinister, they have ulterior motives, maybe 622 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: they're paid by Russia whatever, or doing propaganda or spreading disinformation. 623 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: Whereas the people who are champions of this policy, they 624 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: have the moral high ground. They understand the stakes. They're 625 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,760 Speaker 1: like humanitarians of some kind. Meanwhile, look at the fruits 626 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: of the policy that they've been voted for the past year. 627 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: The German intelligence services, at least it's reported by Drshpiegel 628 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:38,360 Speaker 1: a few weeks ago, said that there are hundreds of bodies, 629 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 1: hundreds of dead Ukrainian soldiers piling up every day in 630 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 1: the war as of at least late January, and then 631 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: also a heck of a lot of Russian casualties apparently, 632 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: although we don't know the precise figures. Let's just I 633 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,800 Speaker 1: don't know, give a ballpark estimate of I don't know, 634 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: six hundred, seven hundred. If there's at least one hundred 635 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: a day, right just on the crane side, than like 636 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,879 Speaker 1: a lower tier estimate would be like a thousand killed 637 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: in action a week, right, something like that. You have 638 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: the you have the moral standing, or you you presume 639 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,759 Speaker 1: yourself to have the moral standing to pontificate about the 640 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: humanitarian virtue that you embody by your advocacy of this 641 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: interventionist position when the results of it are a thousand, 642 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: like twenty year olds blown to bits every week. I 643 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 1: don't really, I'm not sure that you have the really 644 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: the right to be pontificating as um can I can? 645 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 1: I just jump in really quickly here, because if it 646 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: were either a Democrat interventionist or there are, as you 647 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: point out at the beginning of our discussion, the right, 648 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: there's more dissent about this issue than on the left. 649 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: I don't I do not see any Democrat pundits of 650 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: any platform or standing a considerable platform, who are opposed 651 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: to what's going on in Ukraine. I do see, you know, 652 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson, for example, very prominently is a skeptic of 653 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,800 Speaker 1: what's going on with US intervention in Ukraine. But the 654 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: people that aren't skeptics, what they would say to you, Michael, 655 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: is Okay, yeah, there's a lot of casualties going on, 656 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: but if we weren't giving the Ukrainians to fight, it 657 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: would be an invasion by Putin with genocide and tyranny 658 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: and even more casualties. By the way, I don't subscribe 659 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: to this theory. I'm just saying, what do you what 660 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: is your response to what would clearly be their attack 661 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 1: at that point of view, Well, right, they have to 662 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,239 Speaker 1: immediately resort to conjuring up one of these counterfactual scenarios 663 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 1: and make everybody really intimidated by this hypothetical prospect of 664 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 1: you know, mass genocide or you know, who are doing 665 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: a blitzkrieg throughout the rest of East of Europe, or 666 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: one of these other more you know, extreme scenarios that 667 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: they conveniently don't have to ever prove our true because 668 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: they're intentionally bringing up a counterfactual that can't be proven 669 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,359 Speaker 1: or disproven, whereas I have the luxury of looking at 670 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 1: the facts on the ground and what has actually been 671 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: done and what is in the observable record, and what 672 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: can be empirically verified. And that's the fruits of the 673 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: policy that they've promoted. I mean, they're the ones who 674 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: have been chanting stand with Ukraine for a year, waving flags, 675 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: demanding escalations in weapons provision, and just being general advocates 676 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: of the overall sort of policy framework that's been employed 677 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: in Ukraine by the US. And yet somehow the mass 678 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: death and destruction and economic turmoil and you know, basically 679 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: just total obliteration of Ukraine's state capacity and so on, 680 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 1: none of that they bear any responsibility for, because they'll claim, oh, 681 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: what do you mean, it's all just Russia. Now, of course, 682 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: Russia is a belligerent in the war. They're fighting the war. 683 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 1: They're responsible for the warfare that they undertake. Right, But 684 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 1: this idea that the United States hasn't pursued a policy 685 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: explicitly that was intended to facilitate the intensification of warfare, 686 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 1: and then we see intensified warfare on the battlefield and 687 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,879 Speaker 1: the casualties associated with that, and there's no culpability at 688 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,720 Speaker 1: all or no responsibility that is borne by the United 689 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: States for it. It's just a deflection. It's they are 690 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:43,359 Speaker 1: understandably resistant to being called to account for the ramifications 691 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: of what they promoted, because what they what those ramifications are, 692 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: we can see with our own eyes. It's the admiseration 693 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: of Ukraine and and with no end in sight. So 694 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: that's what I don't know that I would be so 695 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,439 Speaker 1: smug if I were in their position to somehow act 696 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,720 Speaker 1: like you've been morally vindicated or tactically vindicated, or vindicated 697 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: in some other sense. Given what seems like a rapidly 698 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 1: expanding disaster, Where do you see it going? Because right 699 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,400 Speaker 1: now it sounds like it very much sounds like this, 700 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: because Biden has said it, We're in it until the end, 701 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: whatever it takes, whatever it costs. That is the explicit 702 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 1: policy of the Biden White House and really of the 703 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: of the uniparty. If there is such a thing and 704 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: a national security there there really is, I think almost 705 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,760 Speaker 1: more than anywhere else a uniparty. That is the position. 706 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,320 Speaker 1: And Vladimir Putin is not backing off of this. I 707 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,719 Speaker 1: don't think anyone believes he's going to back off of this, 708 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,279 Speaker 1: even if they have another one hundred thousand casualties this year. 709 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:52,839 Speaker 1: So where do you see it going? Well, a lot 710 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:54,920 Speaker 1: of the fretting among if you want to call it, 711 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 1: the uniparty, or at least you know, the sort of 712 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: mainline consensus of the national security operators who are the 713 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 1: most sort of art enthusiast for this gambit. The main 714 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,840 Speaker 1: fretting that they do, it seems as regards the ultimate 715 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,040 Speaker 1: outcome of the war is they're concerned that, you know, 716 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy is all of a sudden going to become 717 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: an anti war activist and decide to cut off aid 718 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 1: to Ukraine, which was always such a ridiculous concept. It 719 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: was kind of manufactured as this midterm election talking point 720 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,880 Speaker 1: by you know, Democrats and the media who wanted to 721 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,720 Speaker 1: like paint McCarthy and the Republicans as somehow stooges of Putin, 722 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,160 Speaker 1: and it wasn't actually in accordance with anything McCarthy had 723 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,879 Speaker 1: ever really said or espoused. He made one fleeting comment 724 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: about how supposedly the Republicans don't want to give Ukraine 725 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 1: a blank check anymore, but you know, everybody pretty much 726 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: agrees with that statement. Early says they do, Democrats and 727 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 1: Republicans alike. I mean Marco Rubio says, oh, of course, no, 728 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: we don't want to give Ukraine a blank check, but 729 00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,720 Speaker 1: we have to still send them tons of military equipment. 730 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,320 Speaker 1: So like everybody can just claim that they're not in 731 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,280 Speaker 1: favor of blank check. It didn't mean anything when McCarthy 732 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: said it. I mean he was actually criticizing Biden early 733 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,840 Speaker 1: on in the war, starting last March or so, for 734 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: not being aggressive enough in sending, for example, or facilitating 735 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,000 Speaker 1: the transfer of those MiG jets early on that Poland 736 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:21,040 Speaker 1: wanted to deploy. And McCarthy was a critic of Biden 737 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 1: from a hawkish perspective on the war as at least 738 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:30,400 Speaker 1: an earlier juncture, as has have been the core leadership 739 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,160 Speaker 1: of the Republican Party in that but the House and Senate, 740 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 1: at least to Phonic Steve Scalise, Kevin McCarthy, all hardcore 741 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,280 Speaker 1: Ukraine interventionist hawks. Now, maybe they sort of like modulate 742 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,720 Speaker 1: their rhetoric in certain contexts given that they know there's 743 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,960 Speaker 1: a bit more consternation about that position within elements of 744 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,400 Speaker 1: the Republican coalition, but doesn't change the fundamental policy that 745 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,480 Speaker 1: they're still clear and on the record as in support 746 00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,760 Speaker 1: of same within with the Senate, with Mitch McConnell, John Thune, 747 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,239 Speaker 1: Rick Scott, etc. McConnell was here, as you might know, 748 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,959 Speaker 1: at the Munich Security Conference with his blue and white 749 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 1: striped tie saying that look what you should and he 750 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,239 Speaker 1: was right about this. What McConnell said was because of 751 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,520 Speaker 1: course all these people at who want to ask him 752 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,319 Speaker 1: questions of this event, they're all asking like, what can 753 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 1: you do to make sure that the the the you know, 754 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,440 Speaker 1: maga isolation as Republicans don't get their way and the 755 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 1: House Republicans and Senate Republicans make sure that aid continues 756 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,759 Speaker 1: to flow uninhibited. He'll always he'll say a variation of 757 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:36,400 Speaker 1: or he started saying a variation of a line that 758 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,800 Speaker 1: I think is actually just true. Whether it's good or 759 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,359 Speaker 1: bad as another question, but he said it's true. He said, 760 00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:47,919 Speaker 1: don't really fixate on the handful of sort of eccentric personalities, 761 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 1: like especially in the House, who get a lot of airtime, 762 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,040 Speaker 1: or forget about like the social media chatter on this 763 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: or the media commentary, you know, TV commentary. Look at 764 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,080 Speaker 1: who the Republicans actually have in positions of legislative power 765 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 1: in the Congress, and he's right. The heads of the 766 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:12,640 Speaker 1: three main committees that would be overseeing the drafting of 767 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:17,839 Speaker 1: any any forthcoming Ukraine AID legislation are among the most 768 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,960 Speaker 1: ardent hawks in either party on the subject. Mike McCall, 769 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,960 Speaker 1: Mike Turner, etc. On the you know, the Foreign Relations Committee, 770 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,479 Speaker 1: the Armed Services Committee, the actual committee chair. So people 771 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:34,239 Speaker 1: who would be exerting power over the formulation of this 772 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: procedurally in the House, they're all even they're in that 773 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,720 Speaker 1: crowd that criticized Biden for not being hawkish enough. Okay, 774 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 1: So in terms of where the whole conflict is going, 775 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,239 Speaker 1: I think that whole side of it, meaning people are 776 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:56,600 Speaker 1: always cautioning or pointing out the specter of somehow Republicans 777 00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:01,359 Speaker 1: becoming an anti war caucus and off the provision of AID. 778 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:06,200 Speaker 1: I don't think that's a particularly realistic possibility, or I 779 00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,600 Speaker 1: don't at least don't see much evidence that anybody should 780 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 1: let that sort of dictate how they understand what the 781 00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 1: trajectory of the war is, because it seems like there's 782 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,120 Speaker 1: every reason to believe it'll just kind of the status 783 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,080 Speaker 1: quo will continue in that respect, Where do I see 784 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:22,240 Speaker 1: it going? I mean, you know, I'm hesitant to answer 785 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:27,600 Speaker 1: that question in a speculative sense because that always makes 786 00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,440 Speaker 1: people look bad. Like we had. There's this talking point 787 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,680 Speaker 1: that goes around now where we're told everybody believed, or 788 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,359 Speaker 1: people will say and even like the Polish president said 789 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,960 Speaker 1: it last night introducing Biden in Warsaw, and like Alexi 790 00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:42,880 Speaker 1: Navalni I saw saying, and everybody says it, it's just 791 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:44,839 Speaker 1: like a matter of like just it's an article of faith. 792 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,480 Speaker 1: It's part of like the war mythology. Now that everybody 793 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:51,400 Speaker 1: believed somehow that heave would fall within three days, and 794 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,280 Speaker 1: they were all wrong, because Ukraine showed how we're sourceful 795 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,720 Speaker 1: it is and how bold its fighters are and warded 796 00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:59,640 Speaker 1: off the Russian menace heroically. And that's why we then 797 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:04,920 Speaker 1: have to have this indefinite commitment of perpetual warfare provision 798 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,920 Speaker 1: to Ukraine. Right, So I think that coal narrative is 799 00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,640 Speaker 1: a bit of a misnomer. And let's like, you know, 800 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,759 Speaker 1: cleverly constructed war propagandic, because everybody did not quote believe 801 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,719 Speaker 1: that there was one briefing that Mark Milly gave in 802 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:22,520 Speaker 1: early February where he suggested that Russia could or may 803 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:28,640 Speaker 1: sees Kiev Kiev in one of several possible scenarios, and 804 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,840 Speaker 1: then that was just extrapolated into oh, everyone unbelieved that 805 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,719 Speaker 1: this was going to be happening with absolute certainty, which 806 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:36,839 Speaker 1: was again not the case. But you can see why 807 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,160 Speaker 1: Ukrainians or pro Ukraine advocates would want to hype that 808 00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,319 Speaker 1: as supposedly what happened, because it kind of gives their 809 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:49,640 Speaker 1: endeavor this like heightened purpose and it's like this animating 810 00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:54,239 Speaker 1: sort of force for their argumentation. Here's what I can say, 811 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:56,680 Speaker 1: is happening. I've rather almost tried to figure out what 812 00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,799 Speaker 1: is happening? Then what may happen six months from now, 813 00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:03,200 Speaker 1: because I don't freaking know? Um, what is very unpredictable. Well, 814 00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:08,719 Speaker 1: what is happening is because you have this Western security establishment, 815 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,040 Speaker 1: so to say. And I hate even using the word 816 00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,600 Speaker 1: West or Western in this context without scare quotes, because 817 00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,160 Speaker 1: it's such like a ridiculous conceit or the West, what 818 00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,800 Speaker 1: does that even mean? I mean so sort of annoying 819 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:23,799 Speaker 1: and self aggrandizing. What is happening is you do see 820 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:28,960 Speaker 1: a hardening of the ideological zeal of the core decision 821 00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:35,440 Speaker 1: makers who are party to the development of the just 822 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:45,480 Speaker 1: policy orientation of these security and state apparatus. Is Biden 823 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,080 Speaker 1: being a chief example. I mean, I actually think people 824 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: underrate the significance of Biden's sincerely felt ideological convictions on this. 825 00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,640 Speaker 1: Like people think that Biden is just senile and or 826 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,600 Speaker 1: his interest in is all about how like he wanted 827 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,160 Speaker 1: Hunter to get like sixty thousand dollars a month from 828 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:08,000 Speaker 1: the Barisma board. That's like an ancillarily related dimension of 829 00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:12,520 Speaker 1: Biden's relationship with Ukraine. But I am inclined really to 830 00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,040 Speaker 1: take them on his word when he makes these incredibly 831 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 1: zealous statements about how awesomely important he views the conflict 832 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,600 Speaker 1: to be, and it would be consistent with what his 833 00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,200 Speaker 1: foreign policy views and what his emphasis has been in 834 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,239 Speaker 1: public life as a member of the Senate going back 835 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,120 Speaker 1: decades and then as Vice president. This is bright within 836 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,640 Speaker 1: his ballywick as something that he thinks is actually extraordinarily 837 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,719 Speaker 1: existentially civilizationally important. You can pull up clips of him 838 00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,400 Speaker 1: in the nineties, like being the person that Bill Clinton 839 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,479 Speaker 1: and then later in the two thousands, George W. Bush 840 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:50,480 Speaker 1: designated to usher through NATO expansion in the Senate. You know, 841 00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:52,160 Speaker 1: so while he might not have been like a long 842 00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:56,480 Speaker 1: time zealous, he might have been like have been a 843 00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,120 Speaker 1: long time anilogue with regard to like Afghanistan, right, which 844 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,560 Speaker 1: is why he allowed for or you know, ordered the 845 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:07,920 Speaker 1: withdrawal in twenty twenty one. In terms of Europe and um, 846 00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:10,440 Speaker 1: you know, Soviet Union and slash Russia relations in the 847 00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,440 Speaker 1: United States, this is something that he actually, you know, 848 00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,200 Speaker 1: been deeply, seemingly ideologically invested in for a long time. 849 00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,560 Speaker 1: So I'll take him at his word on that. And 850 00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:24,440 Speaker 1: that's actually all the more reason to presume that the 851 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,000 Speaker 1: commitment is going to be indefinite, or at least there's 852 00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,759 Speaker 1: no reason to think that the current trajectory will change. 853 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:35,960 Speaker 1: And what is the current trajectory. It's these escalatory spirals 854 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:41,719 Speaker 1: that are hit for tat and have this center just 855 00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,440 Speaker 1: a sort of relationship with one another between the US, 856 00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:50,719 Speaker 1: slash Ukraine and Russia that although people have thought, people 857 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,160 Speaker 1: claim that the red lines were never crossed and Putin 858 00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,640 Speaker 1: was bluffing right as we were talking about before, We're 859 00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:57,520 Speaker 1: at a point now, I mean, if I if I 860 00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:59,440 Speaker 1: told you a year and a half ago, or if 861 00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,560 Speaker 1: you told me year and a half ago, right that 862 00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:07,319 Speaker 1: the US would be essentially functionally effectively in a hot 863 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,280 Speaker 1: war with Russia in that you have this incredibly intense 864 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:16,840 Speaker 1: operational involvement in the actual combat that the US is engineering. 865 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:20,400 Speaker 1: You have the weapons provision, the diplomatic side of it, 866 00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:24,600 Speaker 1: the economic subsidy, and so forth. If you had told 867 00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:26,880 Speaker 1: me that and given me some examples of like what 868 00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,320 Speaker 1: this has manifested as like, for example, in December of 869 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,920 Speaker 1: last year, there was a drone strike three hundred miles 870 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:39,760 Speaker 1: inside Russia, Okay, on an air base that housed part 871 00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:46,399 Speaker 1: of Russia's strategic nuclear fleet. Ukraine did another audacious act 872 00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,480 Speaker 1: and did a drone strike on that base. Now that's 873 00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:53,319 Speaker 1: the US sponsoring Ukraine's ability to do that. Whatever direct 874 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,200 Speaker 1: operational world the US might have had in that particular action, 875 00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,800 Speaker 1: sort of side the point, it's only because of the 876 00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,399 Speaker 1: US sponsorship of the military you can do anything at all. 877 00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:06,239 Speaker 1: Right now, if you had told me that that happened, right, 878 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:16,440 Speaker 1: or that the US would be declaring through the words 879 00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,759 Speaker 1: of the President that nuclear apocalypse. Mr Biden said this 880 00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:27,560 Speaker 1: in October nuclear apocalypse apocalypse is a greater threat than 881 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:32,040 Speaker 1: at any time since the Cuban missile crisis, or you 882 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,760 Speaker 1: had told me just a dozen or more other insane 883 00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,520 Speaker 1: things that are that exemplified this conflict, I mean even 884 00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:41,440 Speaker 1: just a few weeks ago or two weeks ago or so. 885 00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:46,720 Speaker 1: The Washington Post reported that when the Ukraine military fires 886 00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:51,239 Speaker 1: any rocket attacks on any at any Russian target, that 887 00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,680 Speaker 1: every single time, or virtually every single time, the United 888 00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:59,520 Speaker 1: States is effectively firing the rocket in that it's providing 889 00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:04,640 Speaker 1: such precise and granular real time intelligence that it's essentially 890 00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:08,840 Speaker 1: a second party to the actual conduct of the strike 891 00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:13,120 Speaker 1: through a base that the US has on the periphery 892 00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:16,240 Speaker 1: of Ukraine somewhere somewhere in one of these other countries 893 00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:18,920 Speaker 1: like Romania or Poland. I mean, that's that's insane. That's 894 00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,560 Speaker 1: like direct war with Russia. Okay, So people don't people, 895 00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,320 Speaker 1: but people have been habituated or they've been acclimated to 896 00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,839 Speaker 1: how jarring and insane that is over the last year 897 00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,640 Speaker 1: because of the way that they've approached this issue policy wise, mean, 898 00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:36,320 Speaker 1: the bind administration, Congress, etc. They've done the escalations incrementally. 899 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:38,640 Speaker 1: The war first started, supposedly it was like this limited 900 00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:41,760 Speaker 1: humanitarian aid mission with a couple of rifles and javelins, 901 00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,480 Speaker 1: and that was it. Now we're furnishing Ukraine and entirely 902 00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,560 Speaker 1: new military with F sixteens potentially, or at least that 903 00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,719 Speaker 1: we know now, Abram's tanks and Patriot batteries and everything else. 904 00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:54,400 Speaker 1: It's like, it's not what it was, Michael. We got 905 00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,600 Speaker 1: to leave it there, Michael Tracy. Everybody check out his 906 00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:58,920 Speaker 1: sub stack. Michael will have you back with more time 907 00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 1: to talk about this and other side objects to Thanks 908 00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:02,840 Speaker 1: for being here on the show Man. We appreciate you 909 00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:04,799 Speaker 1: all right, enjoyed it. Thanks,