Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: I got a bunch of notes about that last monologue
Speaker 1: on friendship if you didn't hear it, I talked about
Speaker 1: the steep decline and number of close friends that people have.
Speaker 1: So in the nineteen nineties only about two to three
Speaker 1: percent of people said they had no close friends. Now
Speaker 1: that number is ten percent for college graduates and twenty
Speaker 1: four percent for high school graduates. Again, that's no close
Speaker 1: friends at all. So one person wrote in I have
Speaker 1: Facebook friends and people I text with in my hometown,
Speaker 1: but I moved to a new town six years ago
Speaker 1: and haven't made any close friends here. Another person wrote,
Speaker 1: I moved last year and haven't been able to make
Speaker 1: friends in my new city. My wife hasn't either. Our
Speaker 1: son is two and we have acquaintances through his daycare,
Speaker 1: but no actual potential friends. And the last note I'll
Speaker 1: highlight is quote I have close friends who are always
Speaker 1: there for me, but I live far away. I don't
Speaker 1: have the kind of friends that I see people have
Speaker 1: on social media, where they go out to dinner or
Speaker 1: the movies. I'm not sure where I would be on
Speaker 1: that survey because I do have friends I can count on,
Speaker 1: but rarely see end quote. A lot of the people
Speaker 1: who wrote in had recently moved, and I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's because I mentioned that a lot of people
Speaker 1: have moved, and I've obviously talked about my own move
Speaker 1: and the fact that there's been this national realignment where
Speaker 1: people have moved in the last few years, or maybe
Speaker 1: that's just a coincidence. It's hard when you move to
Speaker 1: start a new friend group, to make new friends. It's
Speaker 1: hard to get to know people. People are strange when
Speaker 1: you're a stranger. I say that a lot about being
Speaker 1: in a new place and meeting new people. Only one
Speaker 1: person who wrote in indicated they have a child, and
Speaker 1: I think it's so much easier to make friends through
Speaker 1: your kids, especially when they're small. When they get a
Speaker 1: little older, like mine are a little older, it's harder.
Speaker 1: You don't quite get to know their parents of the
Speaker 1: kids that your kids like the same way. But when
Speaker 1: they're little, you'll see the same parents at school pickup
Speaker 1: or drop off or at events, and you'll get to
Speaker 1: know people, and your kid will like some kid in
Speaker 1: his class, and you'll arrange the playdate, and then you'll
Speaker 1: realize the parents are cool too, and that's how it happens.
Speaker 1: I think the person who wrote in and has the
Speaker 1: small child that he has acquaintances in daycare is actually
Speaker 1: in the best position to make friends. The other ones
Speaker 1: are tougher. The last one that I read, the one
Speaker 1: who has close friends but no one to actually hang
Speaker 1: out with. I think that one's really tough because you're
Speaker 1: having the actual friend needs met, but not the socializing part,
Speaker 1: and that's a really important part. I wrote about this
Speaker 1: a few years ago after our family moved from Manhattan
Speaker 1: to Brooklyn. It was a small move and we had
Speaker 1: a lot of friends. Our dance card, as they say,
Speaker 1: was full every weekend. We always had places to be
Speaker 1: in people to be there with. But I was really
Speaker 1: lacking the day to day the people you talk to
Speaker 1: as you push your kids on the swings. The really
Speaker 1: just the acquaintances. So this is what I wrote at
Speaker 1: the time quote the lack of acquaintances translated into lacking
Speaker 1: a sense of being part of a community, which made
Speaker 1: me feel isolated. Sure, I could call my best friend
Speaker 1: and talk for an hour about things that really matter,
Speaker 1: but what I needed during the other waking hours of
Speaker 1: the day was someone with whom to discuss where to
Speaker 1: get the best hole in the walled Chinese food, or
Speaker 1: to chat about the weather while ordering my coffee.
Speaker 2: End quote.
Speaker 1: In that same piece, I wrote about the British anthropologist
Speaker 1: Robin Dunbar, and Dunbar theories are really common theory and
Speaker 1: it's been discussed a lot. But his theory was that
Speaker 1: people can only maintain one hundred and fifty friendships. That's
Speaker 1: a very high number of friends in the real world,
Speaker 1: but not so high online. So then Dunbar applied his
Speaker 1: theory of friendship more recently to Facebook friends, I wrote
Speaker 1: Dunbar said that if you have one hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: Facebook friends, you can likely own only count on about
Speaker 1: four of them in a time of crisis, and of
Speaker 1: course this was shared across the media spheres, damning evidence
Speaker 1: that our Facebook friendships are shallow. But that reaction, while rational,
Speaker 1: is wrong. It misunderstands the nature of a social circle
Speaker 1: and misses the importance of again, these acquaintances. Four friends
Speaker 1: who will be there for you if you need them
Speaker 1: at three AM is a solid number, but there's nothing
Speaker 1: wrong with the other one hundred and forty six friends
Speaker 1: playing a different role for you. The truth is that
Speaker 1: the three am crisises are hopefully few and far between,
Speaker 1: and if you have four friends you can turn to
Speaker 1: during those times, you're already in a great place friend wise.
Speaker 1: But for the rest of your life, it's fine to
Speaker 1: have friends and acquaintances or tell you how cute you
Speaker 1: look in your profile picture, play online games with you,
Speaker 1: or leave comments when you crowdsource restaurants in a new
Speaker 1: city offline. This can translate to your neighbor taking in
Speaker 1: your packages while you're away, or a mom friend keeping
Speaker 1: an eye on one of your children while you chase
Speaker 1: the other one around, or a variety of other casual
Speaker 1: interactions that make up our everyday lives. I really think
Speaker 1: we need acquaintances, and they can become real friends too
Speaker 1: along the way. So I think that the two people
Speaker 1: who said that they do have close friends but not
Speaker 1: in their new city or town should work on developing
Speaker 1: acquaintances first and foremost. And I got to tell you,
Speaker 1: I have to admit I'm lacking that in my life
Speaker 1: right now. I have a lot of friends, but I
Speaker 1: don't know a lot of people in my neighborhood. And
Speaker 1: I've talked about this on here before, and I want
Speaker 1: to make that change because I think it's important to
Speaker 1: recognize people where you live. I think it's important to
Speaker 1: say hello to people. I think it's important to have
Speaker 1: those little interactions. Someone you see on a regular basis
Speaker 1: and have a cordial relationship with can end up becoming
Speaker 1: a friend, a good friend. Maybe at some point it'll
Speaker 1: get friendly enough that you can go grab a drink
Speaker 1: or do an activity and it'll grow from there. I'd say,
Speaker 1: don't let age and geographical change rob you from the
Speaker 1: experience of making friends and developing bonds with people. It's
Speaker 1: harder as we get older, definitely, of course, and it's
Speaker 1: harder when we move in adulthood. But it's worth the effort,
Speaker 1: and I hope the people who wrote in won't give up.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Coming up next and interview with Nicole Neely.
Speaker 1: Join us after the break.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My
Speaker 2: guest today is Nicky Neely, founder of Parents Defending Education. Hi, Nikki,
Speaker 2: so nice to have you on.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: So I should mention right up front I'm on the
Speaker 2: board of Parents Defending Education. I don't know if that
Speaker 2: needs to be mentioned, but I figured why not, And
Speaker 2: that's how I've gotten to know you and think you
Speaker 2: are a fascinating person, super funny and interesting, and thought,
Speaker 2: let's delve into who you are on the show cool
Speaker 2: and you're very excited about.
Speaker 3: That, super excited.
Speaker 2: So how did you Did you always want to defend education?
Speaker 2: Did you always want to be a parent defending education?
Speaker 3: Never? No? Never.
Speaker 4: It's funny because I think back to one my first
Speaker 4: job in DC, I was a CATO, and I was like,
Speaker 4: the one issue I did not like when I was
Speaker 4: working in PR for a CATO, I was like, I
Speaker 4: hate education policy, so like haha.
Speaker 3: Because it was like boring.
Speaker 4: It was like school choice, right, it was like school
Speaker 4: choice good, Union's bad. But school education has gone like
Speaker 4: a lot more interesting in the past couple of years,
Speaker 4: not necessarily for good, but it's more interesting now, at
Speaker 4: least for sure.
Speaker 2: So what made you change your mind?
Speaker 4: So I actually am really passionate about civil liberties, and
Speaker 4: that's kind of how so I sort of fell into
Speaker 4: it backwards, so kind of to like wayback machine. My grandparents,
Speaker 4: actually on my dad's side, met in an internment camp
Speaker 4: in Manzinar in California during World War Two.
Speaker 3: They're Japanese Americans, and.
Speaker 4: So that's saying, a government big enough to give you
Speaker 4: everything you want is big enough to take away everything
Speaker 4: you have.
Speaker 3: Like that totally resonates.
Speaker 4: With me, like I know it does with you because
Speaker 4: it did happen to my family, right, and so that
Speaker 4: to me was just always something was really interesting. And
Speaker 4: so I'm married to a lawyer, Like we have boring
Speaker 4: dinner parties, we talk about the fourteenth Amendment like I'm
Speaker 4: a super fun person. But to me, the kind of
Speaker 4: the most exciting area of law right now is the
Speaker 4: intersection of the First Amendment. I used to run a
Speaker 4: campus free speech group and Title six, Title nine, you know,
Speaker 4: on the racial sex discrimination issues, and so that is
Speaker 4: kind of like where I have fallen into this. Just
Speaker 4: watching our education system both put you know, be weaponized
Speaker 4: against kids in the name of you know, doing good
Speaker 4: in the name of papty, but then also just sort
Speaker 4: of watching how the lessons and how kids are treated
Speaker 4: in school then ends up impacting wider society.
Speaker 2: Did having kids along the way there probably factor in somewhat.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, I mean yeah, I was like a die
Speaker 4: in the whole libertarian until I had kids. And yeah,
Speaker 4: so my political views have moderated somewhat, or I guess,
Speaker 4: as my dad said, I he considered me to the
Speaker 4: right of a tilibahun.
Speaker 3: And so you know, it's kind of in the beholder,
Speaker 3: I suppose.
Speaker 2: Wait and where are you now?
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm a conservative now, much to my core
Speaker 4: libertarian husband's great chagrin.
Speaker 2: It's funny, like, you know, you never think about that.
Speaker 2: People get married and they you know, switch politically and
Speaker 2: it's always like left to right or to left or whatever.
Speaker 2: But this is like sort of an inter right.
Speaker 3: Battle, right. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean he he like talks, he talks
Speaker 4: to my kids about qualified immunity and like I talked
Speaker 4: about immigration.
Speaker 3: So it's like it's a never ending you know. The kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do the kids enjoy it?
Speaker 3: They do.
Speaker 4: Yeah. A couple of years ago, they were off school
Speaker 4: the day actually the Harvard students for a fair admissions argument,
Speaker 4: and my my friends were arguing it.
Speaker 3: So they were inside the court, and so I took
Speaker 3: the kids to the outside.
Speaker 4: And it was funny because like, I'm Asian, and so
Speaker 4: I was outside the court with my little Asian kids
Speaker 4: and we had some protesters, some pro affirmative action protesters
Speaker 4: come up to us and start to try and give
Speaker 4: us materials like little propaganda sweatshirts and stuff.
Speaker 3: I said, sorry, we're on the other side of this issue.
Speaker 3: And I got to talk to them just very you know,
Speaker 3: straight up.
Speaker 4: I said, you know, those people, do you think that
Speaker 4: you should be able to get into a cuege or
Speaker 4: not because of the color of your skin? And they
Speaker 4: were like, what what are you talking about. I was like,
Speaker 4: that's what those people think. That's why we hat taking
Speaker 4: those sweatshirts. And they were like, oh weird. And so
Speaker 4: really to kind of, you know, explain what's going on
Speaker 4: and in term, you know, in the news kind of
Speaker 4: through the lens of your family's I.
Speaker 2: Feel like kids get that. They get the whole. I
Speaker 2: don't want to be I don't want to be somewhere
Speaker 2: just because of like the accident of my birth or
Speaker 2: or you know, somewhere I don't deserve to be, or
Speaker 2: like my daughter's been offered opportunities because she's a girl,
Speaker 2: and she's like, I don't want to be the girl
Speaker 2: on this whatever this is.
Speaker 3: I think they see that really clearly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and they're yeah, they're not kind of biased
Speaker 4: by like societal things. They're just like their gut feeling
Speaker 4: about like what is right and what is wrong, and
Speaker 4: so yeah, it's trying and trying to keep them on
Speaker 4: that path.
Speaker 2: So what do you worry about? What's the concern for you?
Speaker 3: I mean I worry about my kids NonStop.
Speaker 4: Obviously, I was like realizing of the day, you know,
Speaker 4: you have to kind of teach them how to navigate
Speaker 4: the world, but then also like the rules of baseball,
Speaker 4: Like it's like like like there's very complicated things of
Speaker 4: like right small hygiene, and then like how to act
Speaker 4: in society, and then like how to use the metro
Speaker 4: and so it's it's like a weird it's like a
Speaker 4: weird thing. But I really I want them to be
Speaker 4: so reliant. I don't want them to be followers. And
Speaker 4: right now we're homeschooling them this year, so I don't
Speaker 4: want them to be weird either, And so like how
Speaker 4: do you sort of like get them to be citizens
Speaker 4: of the world in a way that's not like strange.
Speaker 3: And then I guess kind of aside from my family,
Speaker 3: I also just worry about kind of the globe, like
Speaker 3: the general.
Speaker 4: Unraveling of society in America, right now, which is I
Speaker 4: guess kind of intercepts with having kids.
Speaker 2: Do you feel better about it since the Trump election
Speaker 2: are same.
Speaker 4: So, I mean, I think there's a lot of work
Speaker 4: to be read to be done over the next couple
Speaker 4: of years, because I think just trust and institutions has
Speaker 4: crumbled so much, I mean just in the past decade,
Speaker 4: and so you know, to restore trust in the healthcare.
Speaker 3: System and the education system. The Wall Street Journal had.
Speaker 4: A great article a few weeks ago and calling this
Speaker 4: basically America's glastnhost period.
Speaker 3: And I think we're sort of in that error.
Speaker 4: Right now because it's like people feel that they can
Speaker 4: kind of speak truth that they've had in their heart
Speaker 4: for a long time, and just what do we do
Speaker 4: with that is kind of an interesting, you know, mystery.
Speaker 2: Yeah that actually that's a really good good way of
Speaker 2: putting it. But I mean, people like I think us
Speaker 2: we're speaking the truths all along. But it's definitely I
Speaker 2: feel like regular people are no longer whispering to me.
Speaker 2: It's like they're if they're not by regular people, I mean,
Speaker 2: like not in our political world. I feel like they're
Speaker 2: much more likely to say things out loud in a
Speaker 2: way that they couldn't in the last four years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just like me working on the civil liberty stuff.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's funny.
Speaker 4: Because we have so many friends that are so freaked
Speaker 4: out about the courts and you know, support packing and
Speaker 4: Supreme Court and all that stuff.
Speaker 3: And to me, what has really been.
Speaker 4: Worrisome over the past couple of years, and particularly in
Speaker 4: the wake of October seventh, was watching how there was
Speaker 4: just a really obviously unequal adjudication of civil rights law
Speaker 4: in this country. I mean you could tell a little
Speaker 4: kid in school Hitler should have finish the job, and
Speaker 4: that was considered acceptable, right, Like there were I saw
Speaker 4: a school in California where they there were swastika is
Speaker 4: drawn and they said, oh, this is a Buddhist religious
Speaker 4: symbol like kitty yeah, versus like if you called my
Speaker 4: kids some Asian slur. I mean, the full force of
Speaker 4: the state and federal government will come down on your shoulders.
Speaker 4: And so just average people saw, you know, based on
Speaker 4: the color of your skin or what's between your legs,
Speaker 4: you will get a fair shake or not. And so
Speaker 4: I just I think that then gave people a coverage
Speaker 4: to say.
Speaker 3: I'm just not going to fall the laws.
Speaker 4: You know, the laws don't matter anymore, and that like
Speaker 4: erosion of faith in just the rule of law is
Speaker 4: something that really really worries me.
Speaker 2: Do you think we can come back from that? How
Speaker 2: do you dial back.
Speaker 3: The erosion of law?
Speaker 4: I mean, I think you know this is I will
Speaker 4: wave my libertarian card very briefly. There are too many
Speaker 4: laws and they're sporadically enforced. And so to get back
Speaker 4: to a place where like murder is bad, full stop,
Speaker 4: rape is bad, full stop, Like let's actually go after
Speaker 4: those major crimes and really make sure that those people
Speaker 4: are held accountable and like maybe not get so mad
Speaker 4: at like, you know, people doing like little things here
Speaker 4: or there. I mean the fact that New York City
Speaker 4: has a biased response team or right, like things like that,
Speaker 4: like is the biggest problem in New York City that
Speaker 4: like people are calling names?
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure not. And so like let's actually use
Speaker 3: the law for what it's intended.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I look being libertarian and Jason, I'm all for it.
Speaker 2: I'm I'm in full support. I love libertarians. I Mean,
Speaker 2: in another world I'd be libertarian.
Speaker 3: But if they're cute, it's like this world or yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm close, but not quite there were trouble for this one.
Speaker 2: What would you be doing if not this, Like, what
Speaker 2: would be a totally different like plan B for you?
Speaker 4: I mean, I keep saying I'm going to fix education,
Speaker 4: so I could just day drink. I frankly, I think
Speaker 4: I'd probably get bored. I keep having this fantasy of
Speaker 4: my mom is Irish, like I have like a very
Speaker 4: weird family history, so I keep thinking I want to
Speaker 4: like buy an Irish country estate and.
Speaker 3: Fix it up.
Speaker 4: Although a couple of years ago I watched too much
Speaker 4: HDTV when I was on maternity leave and I decided
Speaker 4: that we should move to Texas.
Speaker 3: I think I was like really into that fixed rubber show.
Speaker 2: Who among Us? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, like the actual like really actually doing house things.
Speaker 4: I'm not a handy person whatsoever. Like I'm like a
Speaker 4: write a check person that also dates me.
Speaker 3: I guess I'm like the same. Yeah, I would like.
Speaker 4: To think I would like supervise like home renovations or something,
Speaker 4: but I problem.
Speaker 2: That's you know, look, you could hire people to do
Speaker 2: stuff you don't have to, like, you know, reel the
Speaker 2: hammer yourself. I yeah, feel like, but no, an Irish
Speaker 2: pub in the countryside. I think it's not a bad life.
Speaker 2: I you know, bring libertarianism to Ireland. They really could
Speaker 2: do some They're really a mess. It's it's unfortunate. So
Speaker 2: what advice would you give a sixteen year old Nikki Mealy?
Speaker 4: So I'm a super insecure growing up and I think
Speaker 4: probably what I would tell myself is not everyone's opinion matters,
Speaker 4: Which is funny now because like I like, I don't
Speaker 4: like my Twitter, Like I like things go out, but
Speaker 4: like I don't read the messages because somebody like I
Speaker 4: did your mom sixty nine on Twitter saying something mean
Speaker 4: like devastating where it's like the Washington Post thing, I'm
Speaker 4: like a like a hateful bigot is like kind of
Speaker 4: doesn't bother me. And so I just like there are
Speaker 4: a few people whose opinions actually matter. But otherwise, like
Speaker 4: there's so much sound and noise out there, and this
Speaker 4: is even like you know, I mean when you were
Speaker 4: growing up, it was for social media, and so just
Speaker 4: really you know, to kind of drown out the noise
Speaker 4: and really focus in on whose opinion you value.
Speaker 2: Where did you grow up?
Speaker 3: I grew up in Chicago.
Speaker 4: I grew up in the North Shore. So I'm an
Speaker 4: aspiring jew. I was one of the few Christians and
Speaker 4: so yeah, I tried to.
Speaker 3: Get my.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like you're You're totally an honorary one.
Speaker 2: If you ever want to join.
Speaker 3: The fold, Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm on my way.
Speaker 2: How did you get to d C? What was the path?
Speaker 4: I went to grad school in California. I was looking
Speaker 4: at I was looking at grad schools in d C.
Speaker 4: And in California, I got a scholarship to go to Pepperdine.
Speaker 4: I didn't get scholarships to go to DC, but I
Speaker 4: was working in commercial real estate at the time, and
Speaker 4: so I flew to d C. I met with the
Speaker 4: admissions people at the DC schools and I said, this
Speaker 4: is what Pepperdine's offering.
Speaker 3: Can you match it? Can you beat it? And they
Speaker 3: were like, we don't do scholarships that way.
Speaker 4: And I was like, California, it is so I have
Speaker 4: family out there. I had not spent a lot of
Speaker 4: time out there, you know, and it was fun. I
Speaker 4: decided that after a couple months of living in Malibu, fine,
Speaker 4: I would actually go to college, like you know, it's
Speaker 4: sonny every day.
Speaker 3: It was fun.
Speaker 4: It was actually that was where I was a Democrat
Speaker 4: growing up, like all through college, like I was in
Speaker 4: the student aclu, I put free Mooma posters up in
Speaker 4: like my sworty, like what the good retrospect was the doing?
Speaker 4: And it was in grad school that I had a
Speaker 4: professor who had me read Milton Friedman, had me read Hayek,
Speaker 4: and I was like, oh, there was a way to
Speaker 4: help more people with dignity, and so.
Speaker 3: That was really that was kind of what red pilled me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna ask whether, like a five year
Speaker 2: old Nikki Neely was like handing out copies of the
Speaker 2: Cato Constitution.
Speaker 3: Or not, but no, I wanted to. I wanted to.
Speaker 3: I was a Democrat. I sent a mad letter to
Speaker 3: George H. W.
Speaker 4: Bush about like cutting down old trees, and I got
Speaker 4: some letter back about like reading during Christmas break, and.
Speaker 3: I was like, this is you needed me read it
Speaker 3: even me care about the trees, and so.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was you know, like growing up, I thought
Speaker 4: that my my dad was a Chicago Democrat. He always
Speaker 4: voted for Daily and then I found out, you know,
Speaker 4: years later, that he just wanted to smoke hot and
Speaker 4: I didn't want to pay taxes and.
Speaker 3: So like, yeah, among us you know, it turns out, yeah.
Speaker 2: We're parents surprised about your shift.
Speaker 4: Very much, So, yes, very much. So I think it
Speaker 4: was I think it was probably a source of great disappointment.
Speaker 4: I mean, my mom is like, she's the European, She's like,
Speaker 4: everything in Ireland is free.
Speaker 3: I was like, is it though, is that so? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Free stuff is always the most expensive stuff. Actually, exive,
Speaker 2: I lived in Scotland. Everything was free there too, and
Speaker 2: yet nobody could afford anything. It was like, do you
Speaker 2: see what's going on here? Like all your free stuff
Speaker 2: is maybe getting in the way of your being able
Speaker 2: to provide for your families. Do you go back to Ireland?
Speaker 3: I do. All my family's still there.
Speaker 4: My mom is the only one who's in America actually,
Speaker 4: so I go back, you know, once or twice a
Speaker 4: year to see everybody. And my mom used to domp
Speaker 4: me there when I was growing up, for like a
Speaker 4: month every summer. And so I want my kids to
Speaker 4: have that same connection to going back and visiting and
Speaker 4: feeling comfortable, you know, eating the goofy Caprey chocolate bars
Speaker 4: and having bean some toast.
Speaker 2: Right, I mean yeah, and taking that step towards owning
Speaker 2: that that that pub right and again bringing libertarianism. I'm
Speaker 2: actually I'm fully down with your plan. I think this
Speaker 2: is the way forward for you. I think they you
Speaker 2: run PDE out of the bar. You know, listen if
Speaker 2: it works out.
Speaker 3: It was my idea.
Speaker 4: I want President jad Vance to make me ambassard Ireland
Speaker 4: just so I can go there and be like, you
Speaker 4: guys are super wrong on Palestine.
Speaker 3: I'm really sorry, like some sold me to their face.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, yes, that would be nice too. But in
Speaker 2: the meantime, you know, i'd be I'd be visiting you
Speaker 2: at your pub, regardless of their bad pub. We're going
Speaker 2: to take a quick break and be right back on
Speaker 2: the Carol Marcowitch Show. What's like in the future, do
Speaker 2: you grow PDE into an even more powerful force?
Speaker 3: I think so. I think that you know there is
Speaker 3: the world is our oyster. Now.
Speaker 4: It's been great to see the Trump administration really taking
Speaker 4: on a lot of these issues head on. They actually
Speaker 4: might help work me out of business, and I'm totally
Speaker 4: here for it.
Speaker 3: I'm all good.
Speaker 4: Yeah, But I think there's going to be over the
Speaker 4: next couple of years a lot of clean up. I
Speaker 4: think there's we're gonna right now, We're seeing kind of
Speaker 4: a dens and disarray. But I think there is going
Speaker 4: to be a lot of hashtag resistance districts that are
Speaker 4: not going to comply programs that we go underground. And
Speaker 4: it's funny because you know, you know, I am called,
Speaker 4: you know, a hater most of the time. I'm sure
Speaker 4: you know you get a fair amount of unpleasant mail
Speaker 4: once in a while, and it's like, well, I want
Speaker 4: people to I want children to be treated equally regardless
Speaker 4: of immutable characteristics. Like I'm really curious why people have
Speaker 4: a problem with that. And so I think there's going
Speaker 4: to be just a lot of you know, messaging and
Speaker 4: continuing to clean up the messages that have been wrought
Speaker 4: because this is I mean, this has taken place over.
Speaker 3: Fifty years, as it wasn't just over the past four years, right,
Speaker 3: So for.
Speaker 2: A long time PDE was in K through twelve education
Speaker 2: and working to kind of root out all the different
Speaker 2: problems within K through twelve a lot of the wokeness
Speaker 2: and that kind of thing, especially over the last few years.
Speaker 2: But now you're moving into the college space, which I
Speaker 2: recall being skeptical about just because I think the colleges
Speaker 2: are such a lost cause. But you don't seem to
Speaker 2: think that you you're full steam ahead.
Speaker 3: Why do you think they're salvagable.
Speaker 4: I think that there's I think the colleges are salvageable.
Speaker 4: I do think there's going to be kind of some
Speaker 4: some consolidation, some breakouts. I remember being at a Montpellar
Speaker 4: meeting a couple of years ago and watching Jonathan Hite
Speaker 4: talk about a coming split in academy where he said
Speaker 4: there's going to be Pursuit of Truth University and there's
Speaker 4: going to be Social Justice University. And as of right now,
Speaker 4: I mean today, I think it's very muddled because you
Speaker 4: think you're going to one college that's going to teach you,
Speaker 4: you know, pursuit of truth, and you're not.
Speaker 3: You're getting a bunch of woke garbage.
Speaker 4: And I think if people want to fully opt into
Speaker 4: going to some social justice university, that's fine, go spend
Speaker 4: your money on that. But it's when people kind of
Speaker 4: have the bait and switch for their problems. But I
Speaker 4: think that there's a real governance issue where the inmates
Speaker 4: have been allowed to run the asylum for far too long,
Speaker 4: and so to take some of that back for trustees
Speaker 4: to play a role for there to be a stronger
Speaker 4: role for.
Speaker 3: Administrations in this to rain in some of the excesses.
Speaker 4: I think we're sort of that kind of peak wackiness
Speaker 4: with both the cost of colleges as well in the
Speaker 4: actual value.
Speaker 3: Of the product that's being delivered.
Speaker 4: And so I think I think there's going to be
Speaker 4: a real ground shift over the next couple of years,
Speaker 4: both because of the regulatory compliance element, a lot of
Speaker 4: universities of major legal exposure that I don't think even
Speaker 4: trustees are fully aware of. I'm on the board of
Speaker 4: two universities. I emailed one of them over the weekend
Speaker 4: and said, what's.
Speaker 3: The plan to comply?
Speaker 4: Because there's a lot of deadlines coming up, and so
Speaker 4: I think programs are going to have to be terminated,
Speaker 4: there's going to be layoffs, there's going to be program
Speaker 4: re alignments, and so don't think it's a really exciting
Speaker 4: and dynamic time to be in higher education.
Speaker 2: Do you have any bright spots, any any universities that
Speaker 2: you could see kind of coming out of this moment
Speaker 2: better and stronger and maybe as leaders of this freedom moment?
Speaker 4: You know, I think it's there's none that really come
Speaker 4: to mind. You know, the University Chicago was good on
Speaker 4: some speech stuff, but they still have some bad programs.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: Strough Florida and the Hamilton Center has made great strides
Speaker 4: into in the right direction.
Speaker 3: It's devastated with Ben's as said he was stepping.
Speaker 4: Down, but I think will in Bodens but it's like
Speaker 4: just kind of watching the pressure that they have even
Speaker 4: put on the marketplace.
Speaker 3: I think other universities are realizing Wow.
Speaker 4: I mean, you know the fact that Harvard early admit
Speaker 4: applications were down thirty percent last year. That's a huge
Speaker 4: that's thousands of applications. It's a large number. A lot
Speaker 4: of these universities, you know, they look at those application
Speaker 4: fees as another income stream and so for them to
Speaker 4: start to see these market signals and realize, so, well,
Speaker 4: we're not getting as many applicants this year.
Speaker 3: What is going on? Why is that?
Speaker 4: Why are kids from the mid Atlantic region all apply
Speaker 4: to schools in the SEC in the South?
Speaker 3: Something's going on here? Yeah, I think.
Speaker 4: Is some some administrators are getting the message. Others are not,
Speaker 4: and they're going to be the dinosaurs. They're gonna be
Speaker 4: four step jobs eventually.
Speaker 2: Were you surprised at that thirty percent job. Like, I'm
Speaker 2: pretty shocked about it, honestly, Like even I wouldn't want
Speaker 2: my kids to go to you know, basically at any
Speaker 2: school right now, and thankfully my kids are a few
Speaker 2: years off from it. But still if they, you know,
Speaker 2: were able to apply to Harvard, I would still want
Speaker 2: them to I guess, you know. So I was surprised
Speaker 2: at that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's I think the prestige of it
Speaker 4: was also the fact that I think a lot of
Speaker 4: federal judges said, we're not hiring clerks from here.
Speaker 3: I think that there.
Speaker 4: Has been a lot just it's been a really there's
Speaker 4: been a lot of churn on like a number of
Speaker 4: industries over the past few months, and I think that's
Speaker 4: probably going to continue. I mean, the absolute unrepentance of
Speaker 4: some of these university administrators.
Speaker 3: Has been kind of jaw dropping.
Speaker 4: I mean, think back to I guess suddenly over a
Speaker 4: year ago when there was that hearing with Harvard and
Speaker 4: pen and MIT.
Speaker 3: The MIT president said that she was.
Speaker 4: Not disciplining students because she didn't want to impact their
Speaker 4: visa status.
Speaker 3: I mean, fast forward to now, and it.
Speaker 4: Is a very serious proposal to actually just yank the
Speaker 4: visas of those kids full stop.
Speaker 3: Why are we letting some of the people like that
Speaker 3: in anyway?
Speaker 4: And so I think some of these administrators have really
Speaker 4: like they've they've found Jesus, because like they are realizing
Speaker 4: that there they are deep, deep trouble and that there
Speaker 4: is going to be a side of the federal investigations
Speaker 4: which take, you know, thousands of hours and millions of
Speaker 4: dollars to kind of adjudicate and deal with behind the scenes.
Speaker 4: The reputational damage is astonishing. I mean, I would not
Speaker 4: allow my kids to apply to Harvard. I would tell
Speaker 4: them I'm not co signing your student loans, right, And
Speaker 4: so I think there's a lot of people like that,
Speaker 4: because you know, there are real safety concerns as well.
Speaker 4: But even prior to all the October seventh stuff. I mean,
Speaker 4: as the mother of a boy, there are colleges that
Speaker 4: I would not have sent my son to because of
Speaker 4: seeing how they dealt with Title nine. Having stued a
Speaker 4: lot of universities over First Amendment issues, I know the
Speaker 4: ones that have silenced students and have not treated them
Speaker 4: properly because of perceived microaggressions. And so there are more
Speaker 4: than a few universities that I would not send my
Speaker 4: kids and my money to including both my alma mater
Speaker 4: and my husband's all the water which which are which
Speaker 4: ones University of Illinois for me and University of Texas
Speaker 4: for my husband. So it still calls every year asking
Speaker 4: for donations, and I say, you know how much money
Speaker 4: spent on gibs and done.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so tough though I don't want to like
Speaker 2: opt my kids out of what remain kind of the
Speaker 2: most elite universities. And yes, I love that there's fewer
Speaker 2: firms pulling from these universities, but still Harvard Student has
Speaker 2: every door in the world open to them, you know,
Speaker 2: as a Jew from the former Soviet Union. The idea
Speaker 2: that my kids won't be able to go to some
Speaker 2: schools again the way my parents and my grandparents couldn't
Speaker 2: you know, there's something difficult about that, But I understand obviously,
Speaker 2: and I again, I'm glad not to be having to
Speaker 2: face this until you are able to fix our entire
Speaker 2: college system and in the next few years by the
Speaker 2: time my kids apply.
Speaker 3: So it's been funny.
Speaker 4: Even so Town and Country has been They've been running
Speaker 4: this series about like the New Ivys, and so even
Speaker 4: I mean, when you've lost town and country, like you've
Speaker 4: really kind of you've sort of lost like the elite
Speaker 4: and so yeah, just like what actually gives you value
Speaker 4: for money? Like where will your child get a job
Speaker 4: with a degree that they can actually go take and
Speaker 4: use in their role?
Speaker 2: Are you optimistic over like the next decade about.
Speaker 3: The next time?
Speaker 4: I think there's going to be you know, like I
Speaker 4: like the fact that Trump is doing all this stuff
Speaker 4: basically from day one, because it means.
Speaker 3: That there's no bigger there's four years of enforcement on this.
Speaker 4: And that means that a lot of the actions that
Speaker 4: are being taken now we're going to set in, I mean,
Speaker 4: the layoffs, kind of the program termination. You know, what's
Speaker 4: that Reagan saying, like the closest thing to eternal life
Speaker 4: is is a government program. I mean, you know, four
Speaker 4: years of like like putting a stake through the heart
Speaker 4: of something, like, it's gonna be pretty hard for some
Speaker 4: of this stuff to come.
Speaker 2: Back, right.
Speaker 4: I don't know if I'm crazy about like the bounties
Speaker 4: that some places have been putting out like that feels
Speaker 4: a little creepy.
Speaker 3: But beyond that, I think.
Speaker 4: You know, people are sort of starting to feel like, oh,
Speaker 4: it's nice to be like I can breathe a little
Speaker 4: bit without having that beat on my throat, right, and
Speaker 4: it's refreshing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the breathing, I'm all about it. So end us
Speaker 2: here with your best tip for my listeners on how
Speaker 2: they can improve their lives.
Speaker 3: I think you get out of life what you put
Speaker 3: into it.
Speaker 4: So I like, I work a lot of hours, and
Speaker 4: I realized it's funny. I just had lunch with a
Speaker 4: friend and I said, you know, I really actually need
Speaker 4: to work on this congressional testimony. And I was like, no,
Speaker 4: I have to like put my computer down and like
Speaker 4: actually go and like talk to somebody and clear my head.
Speaker 3: And it was worry.
Speaker 4: When I was getting one of my organizations off the ground,
Speaker 4: I was talking to a donor and he said, you know,
Speaker 4: do you.
Speaker 3: Ever get to like kind of stop and think? And
Speaker 3: I was like, sorry, I don't get to have dinner
Speaker 3: with my family, Like what do you stop and think?
Speaker 3: Who does that?
Speaker 4: To actually be able to take a step back, you know,
Speaker 4: and clear your head? I think actually is like is
Speaker 4: really productive and so you know, to actually I find
Speaker 4: that as an adult now, it's so easy. My default
Speaker 4: setting is like I just want to sit on my
Speaker 4: couch like and like you know, eat dinner and like
Speaker 4: not talk to anybody. But every time I go out,
Speaker 4: I connect with a friend, somebody's in town. I'm like,
Speaker 4: you know, on a trip, and I go to like
Speaker 4: a restaurant, like it's like it's fun.
Speaker 3: I'm glad that I went.
Speaker 4: And I find that I have to push myself and
Speaker 4: so just I encourage people to, like, you know, get
Speaker 4: out and go do something because more often than not,
Speaker 4: you won't regret it.
Speaker 2: I love it. Go touch Grass. She is Nicky Neely.
Speaker 2: Her group is Parents Defending Education. They're fantastic. Check them out.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks so much for joining us on the
Speaker 1: Carol Marcowitch Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.