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Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: I got a bunch of notes about that last monologue

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Speaker 1: on friendship if you didn't hear it, I talked about

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Speaker 1: the steep decline and number of close friends that people have.

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Speaker 1: So in the nineteen nineties only about two to three

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Speaker 1: percent of people said they had no close friends. Now

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Speaker 1: that number is ten percent for college graduates and twenty

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Speaker 1: four percent for high school graduates. Again, that's no close

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Speaker 1: friends at all. So one person wrote in I have

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Speaker 1: Facebook friends and people I text with in my hometown,

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Speaker 1: but I moved to a new town six years ago

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Speaker 1: and haven't made any close friends here. Another person wrote,

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Speaker 1: I moved last year and haven't been able to make

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Speaker 1: friends in my new city. My wife hasn't either. Our

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Speaker 1: son is two and we have acquaintances through his daycare,

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Speaker 1: but no actual potential friends. And the last note I'll

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Speaker 1: highlight is quote I have close friends who are always

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Speaker 1: there for me, but I live far away. I don't

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Speaker 1: have the kind of friends that I see people have

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Speaker 1: on social media, where they go out to dinner or

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Speaker 1: the movies. I'm not sure where I would be on

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Speaker 1: that survey because I do have friends I can count on,

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Speaker 1: but rarely see end quote. A lot of the people

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Speaker 1: who wrote in had recently moved, and I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that's because I mentioned that a lot of people

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Speaker 1: have moved, and I've obviously talked about my own move

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Speaker 1: and the fact that there's been this national realignment where

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Speaker 1: people have moved in the last few years, or maybe

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Speaker 1: that's just a coincidence. It's hard when you move to

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Speaker 1: start a new friend group, to make new friends. It's

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Speaker 1: hard to get to know people. People are strange when

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Speaker 1: you're a stranger. I say that a lot about being

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Speaker 1: in a new place and meeting new people. Only one

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Speaker 1: person who wrote in indicated they have a child, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's so much easier to make friends through

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Speaker 1: your kids, especially when they're small. When they get a

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Speaker 1: little older, like mine are a little older, it's harder.

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Speaker 1: You don't quite get to know their parents of the

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Speaker 1: kids that your kids like the same way. But when

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Speaker 1: they're little, you'll see the same parents at school pickup

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Speaker 1: or drop off or at events, and you'll get to

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Speaker 1: know people, and your kid will like some kid in

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Speaker 1: his class, and you'll arrange the playdate, and then you'll

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Speaker 1: realize the parents are cool too, and that's how it happens.

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Speaker 1: I think the person who wrote in and has the

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Speaker 1: small child that he has acquaintances in daycare is actually

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Speaker 1: in the best position to make friends. The other ones

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Speaker 1: are tougher. The last one that I read, the one

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Speaker 1: who has close friends but no one to actually hang

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Speaker 1: out with. I think that one's really tough because you're

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Speaker 1: having the actual friend needs met, but not the socializing part,

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Speaker 1: and that's a really important part. I wrote about this

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Speaker 1: a few years ago after our family moved from Manhattan

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Speaker 1: to Brooklyn. It was a small move and we had

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Speaker 1: a lot of friends. Our dance card, as they say,

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Speaker 1: was full every weekend. We always had places to be

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Speaker 1: in people to be there with. But I was really

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Speaker 1: lacking the day to day the people you talk to

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Speaker 1: as you push your kids on the swings. The really

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Speaker 1: just the acquaintances. So this is what I wrote at

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Speaker 1: the time quote the lack of acquaintances translated into lacking

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Speaker 1: a sense of being part of a community, which made

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Speaker 1: me feel isolated. Sure, I could call my best friend

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Speaker 1: and talk for an hour about things that really matter,

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Speaker 1: but what I needed during the other waking hours of

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Speaker 1: the day was someone with whom to discuss where to

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Speaker 1: get the best hole in the walled Chinese food, or

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Speaker 1: to chat about the weather while ordering my coffee.

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Speaker 2: End quote.

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Speaker 1: In that same piece, I wrote about the British anthropologist

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Speaker 1: Robin Dunbar, and Dunbar theories are really common theory and

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Speaker 1: it's been discussed a lot. But his theory was that

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Speaker 1: people can only maintain one hundred and fifty friendships. That's

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Speaker 1: a very high number of friends in the real world,

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Speaker 1: but not so high online. So then Dunbar applied his

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Speaker 1: theory of friendship more recently to Facebook friends, I wrote

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Speaker 1: Dunbar said that if you have one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: Facebook friends, you can likely own only count on about

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Speaker 1: four of them in a time of crisis, and of

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Speaker 1: course this was shared across the media spheres, damning evidence

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Speaker 1: that our Facebook friendships are shallow. But that reaction, while rational,

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Speaker 1: is wrong. It misunderstands the nature of a social circle

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Speaker 1: and misses the importance of again, these acquaintances. Four friends

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Speaker 1: who will be there for you if you need them

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Speaker 1: at three AM is a solid number, but there's nothing

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Speaker 1: wrong with the other one hundred and forty six friends

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Speaker 1: playing a different role for you. The truth is that

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Speaker 1: the three am crisises are hopefully few and far between,

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Speaker 1: and if you have four friends you can turn to

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Speaker 1: during those times, you're already in a great place friend wise.

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Speaker 1: But for the rest of your life, it's fine to

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Speaker 1: have friends and acquaintances or tell you how cute you

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Speaker 1: look in your profile picture, play online games with you,

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Speaker 1: or leave comments when you crowdsource restaurants in a new

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Speaker 1: city offline. This can translate to your neighbor taking in

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Speaker 1: your packages while you're away, or a mom friend keeping

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Speaker 1: an eye on one of your children while you chase

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Speaker 1: the other one around, or a variety of other casual

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Speaker 1: interactions that make up our everyday lives. I really think

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Speaker 1: we need acquaintances, and they can become real friends too

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Speaker 1: along the way. So I think that the two people

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Speaker 1: who said that they do have close friends but not

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Speaker 1: in their new city or town should work on developing

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Speaker 1: acquaintances first and foremost. And I got to tell you,

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Speaker 1: I have to admit I'm lacking that in my life

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Speaker 1: right now. I have a lot of friends, but I

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Speaker 1: don't know a lot of people in my neighborhood. And

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Speaker 1: I've talked about this on here before, and I want

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Speaker 1: to make that change because I think it's important to

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Speaker 1: recognize people where you live. I think it's important to

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Speaker 1: say hello to people. I think it's important to have

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Speaker 1: those little interactions. Someone you see on a regular basis

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Speaker 1: and have a cordial relationship with can end up becoming

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Speaker 1: a friend, a good friend. Maybe at some point it'll

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Speaker 1: get friendly enough that you can go grab a drink

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Speaker 1: or do an activity and it'll grow from there. I'd say,

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Speaker 1: don't let age and geographical change rob you from the

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Speaker 1: experience of making friends and developing bonds with people. It's

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Speaker 1: harder as we get older, definitely, of course, and it's

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Speaker 1: harder when we move in adulthood. But it's worth the effort,

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Speaker 1: and I hope the people who wrote in won't give up.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Coming up next and interview with Nicole Neely.

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Speaker 1: Join us after the break.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My

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Speaker 2: guest today is Nicky Neely, founder of Parents Defending Education. Hi, Nikki,

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Speaker 2: so nice to have you on.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: So I should mention right up front I'm on the

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Speaker 2: board of Parents Defending Education. I don't know if that

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Speaker 2: needs to be mentioned, but I figured why not, And

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Speaker 2: that's how I've gotten to know you and think you

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Speaker 2: are a fascinating person, super funny and interesting, and thought,

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Speaker 2: let's delve into who you are on the show cool

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Speaker 2: and you're very excited about.

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Speaker 3: That, super excited.

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Speaker 2: So how did you Did you always want to defend education?

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Speaker 2: Did you always want to be a parent defending education?

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Speaker 3: Never? No? Never.

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Speaker 4: It's funny because I think back to one my first

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Speaker 4: job in DC, I was a CATO, and I was like,

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Speaker 4: the one issue I did not like when I was

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Speaker 4: working in PR for a CATO, I was like, I

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Speaker 4: hate education policy, so like haha.

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Speaker 3: Because it was like boring.

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Speaker 4: It was like school choice, right, it was like school

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Speaker 4: choice good, Union's bad. But school education has gone like

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Speaker 4: a lot more interesting in the past couple of years,

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Speaker 4: not necessarily for good, but it's more interesting now, at

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Speaker 4: least for sure.

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Speaker 2: So what made you change your mind?

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Speaker 4: So I actually am really passionate about civil liberties, and

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Speaker 4: that's kind of how so I sort of fell into

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Speaker 4: it backwards, so kind of to like wayback machine. My grandparents,

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Speaker 4: actually on my dad's side, met in an internment camp

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Speaker 4: in Manzinar in California during World War Two.

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Speaker 3: They're Japanese Americans, and.

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Speaker 4: So that's saying, a government big enough to give you

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Speaker 4: everything you want is big enough to take away everything

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Speaker 4: you have.

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Speaker 3: Like that totally resonates.

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Speaker 4: With me, like I know it does with you because

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Speaker 4: it did happen to my family, right, and so that

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Speaker 4: to me was just always something was really interesting. And

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Speaker 4: so I'm married to a lawyer, Like we have boring

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Speaker 4: dinner parties, we talk about the fourteenth Amendment like I'm

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Speaker 4: a super fun person. But to me, the kind of

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Speaker 4: the most exciting area of law right now is the

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Speaker 4: intersection of the First Amendment. I used to run a

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Speaker 4: campus free speech group and Title six, Title nine, you know,

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Speaker 4: on the racial sex discrimination issues, and so that is

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Speaker 4: kind of like where I have fallen into this. Just

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Speaker 4: watching our education system both put you know, be weaponized

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Speaker 4: against kids in the name of you know, doing good

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Speaker 4: in the name of papty, but then also just sort

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Speaker 4: of watching how the lessons and how kids are treated

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Speaker 4: in school then ends up impacting wider society.

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Speaker 2: Did having kids along the way there probably factor in somewhat.

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Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, I mean yeah, I was like a die

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Speaker 4: in the whole libertarian until I had kids. And yeah,

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Speaker 4: so my political views have moderated somewhat, or I guess,

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Speaker 4: as my dad said, I he considered me to the

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Speaker 4: right of a tilibahun.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, it's kind of in the beholder,

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Speaker 3: I suppose.

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Speaker 2: Wait and where are you now?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm a conservative now, much to my core

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Speaker 4: libertarian husband's great chagrin.

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Speaker 2: It's funny, like, you know, you never think about that.

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Speaker 2: People get married and they you know, switch politically and

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Speaker 2: it's always like left to right or to left or whatever.

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Speaker 2: But this is like sort of an inter right.

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Speaker 3: Battle, right. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean he he like talks, he talks

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Speaker 4: to my kids about qualified immunity and like I talked

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Speaker 4: about immigration.

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Speaker 3: So it's like it's a never ending you know. The kids.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, do the kids enjoy it?

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Speaker 3: They do.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. A couple of years ago, they were off school

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Speaker 4: the day actually the Harvard students for a fair admissions argument,

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Speaker 4: and my my friends were arguing it.

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Speaker 3: So they were inside the court, and so I took

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Speaker 3: the kids to the outside.

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Speaker 4: And it was funny because like, I'm Asian, and so

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Speaker 4: I was outside the court with my little Asian kids

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Speaker 4: and we had some protesters, some pro affirmative action protesters

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Speaker 4: come up to us and start to try and give

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Speaker 4: us materials like little propaganda sweatshirts and stuff.

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Speaker 3: I said, sorry, we're on the other side of this issue.

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Speaker 3: And I got to talk to them just very you know,

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Speaker 3: straight up.

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Speaker 4: I said, you know, those people, do you think that

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Speaker 4: you should be able to get into a cuege or

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Speaker 4: not because of the color of your skin? And they

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Speaker 4: were like, what what are you talking about. I was like,

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Speaker 4: that's what those people think. That's why we hat taking

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Speaker 4: those sweatshirts. And they were like, oh weird. And so

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Speaker 4: really to kind of, you know, explain what's going on

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Speaker 4: and in term, you know, in the news kind of

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Speaker 4: through the lens of your family's I.

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Speaker 2: Feel like kids get that. They get the whole. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to be I don't want to be somewhere

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Speaker 2: just because of like the accident of my birth or

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Speaker 2: or you know, somewhere I don't deserve to be, or

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Speaker 2: like my daughter's been offered opportunities because she's a girl,

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Speaker 2: and she's like, I don't want to be the girl

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Speaker 2: on this whatever this is.

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Speaker 3: I think they see that really clearly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and they're yeah, they're not kind of biased

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Speaker 4: by like societal things. They're just like their gut feeling

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Speaker 4: about like what is right and what is wrong, and

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Speaker 4: so yeah, it's trying and trying to keep them on

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Speaker 4: that path.

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Speaker 2: So what do you worry about? What's the concern for you?

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Speaker 3: I mean I worry about my kids NonStop.

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Speaker 4: Obviously, I was like realizing of the day, you know,

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Speaker 4: you have to kind of teach them how to navigate

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Speaker 4: the world, but then also like the rules of baseball,

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Speaker 4: Like it's like like like there's very complicated things of

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Speaker 4: like right small hygiene, and then like how to act

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Speaker 4: in society, and then like how to use the metro

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Speaker 4: and so it's it's like a weird it's like a

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Speaker 4: weird thing. But I really I want them to be

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Speaker 4: so reliant. I don't want them to be followers. And

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Speaker 4: right now we're homeschooling them this year, so I don't

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Speaker 4: want them to be weird either, And so like how

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Speaker 4: do you sort of like get them to be citizens

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Speaker 4: of the world in a way that's not like strange.

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Speaker 3: And then I guess kind of aside from my family,

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Speaker 3: I also just worry about kind of the globe, like

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Speaker 3: the general.

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Speaker 4: Unraveling of society in America, right now, which is I

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Speaker 4: guess kind of intercepts with having kids.

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Speaker 2: Do you feel better about it since the Trump election

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Speaker 2: are same.

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Speaker 4: So, I mean, I think there's a lot of work

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Speaker 4: to be read to be done over the next couple

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Speaker 4: of years, because I think just trust and institutions has

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Speaker 4: crumbled so much, I mean just in the past decade,

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Speaker 4: and so you know, to restore trust in the healthcare.

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Speaker 3: System and the education system. The Wall Street Journal had.

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Speaker 4: A great article a few weeks ago and calling this

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Speaker 4: basically America's glastnhost period.

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Speaker 3: And I think we're sort of in that error.

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Speaker 4: Right now because it's like people feel that they can

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Speaker 4: kind of speak truth that they've had in their heart

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Speaker 4: for a long time, and just what do we do

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Speaker 4: with that is kind of an interesting, you know, mystery.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that actually that's a really good good way of

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Speaker 2: putting it. But I mean, people like I think us

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Speaker 2: we're speaking the truths all along. But it's definitely I

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Speaker 2: feel like regular people are no longer whispering to me.

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Speaker 2: It's like they're if they're not by regular people, I mean,

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Speaker 2: like not in our political world. I feel like they're

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Speaker 2: much more likely to say things out loud in a

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Speaker 2: way that they couldn't in the last four years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and just like me working on the civil liberty stuff.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's funny.

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Speaker 4: Because we have so many friends that are so freaked

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Speaker 4: out about the courts and you know, support packing and

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court and all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: And to me, what has really been.

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Speaker 4: Worrisome over the past couple of years, and particularly in

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Speaker 4: the wake of October seventh, was watching how there was

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Speaker 4: just a really obviously unequal adjudication of civil rights law

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Speaker 4: in this country. I mean you could tell a little

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Speaker 4: kid in school Hitler should have finish the job, and

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Speaker 4: that was considered acceptable, right, Like there were I saw

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Speaker 4: a school in California where they there were swastika is

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Speaker 4: drawn and they said, oh, this is a Buddhist religious

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Speaker 4: symbol like kitty yeah, versus like if you called my

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Speaker 4: kids some Asian slur. I mean, the full force of

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Speaker 4: the state and federal government will come down on your shoulders.

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Speaker 4: And so just average people saw, you know, based on

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Speaker 4: the color of your skin or what's between your legs,

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Speaker 4: you will get a fair shake or not. And so

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Speaker 4: I just I think that then gave people a coverage

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Speaker 4: to say.

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Speaker 3: I'm just not going to fall the laws.

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Speaker 4: You know, the laws don't matter anymore, and that like

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Speaker 4: erosion of faith in just the rule of law is

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Speaker 4: something that really really worries me.

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Speaker 2: Do you think we can come back from that? How

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Speaker 2: do you dial back.

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Speaker 3: The erosion of law?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think you know this is I will

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Speaker 4: wave my libertarian card very briefly. There are too many

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Speaker 4: laws and they're sporadically enforced. And so to get back

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Speaker 4: to a place where like murder is bad, full stop,

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Speaker 4: rape is bad, full stop, Like let's actually go after

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Speaker 4: those major crimes and really make sure that those people

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Speaker 4: are held accountable and like maybe not get so mad

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Speaker 4: at like, you know, people doing like little things here

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Speaker 4: or there. I mean the fact that New York City

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Speaker 4: has a biased response team or right, like things like that,

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Speaker 4: like is the biggest problem in New York City that

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Speaker 4: like people are calling names?

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Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure not. And so like let's actually use

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Speaker 3: the law for what it's intended.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I look being libertarian and Jason, I'm all for it.

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Speaker 2: I'm I'm in full support. I love libertarians. I Mean,

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Speaker 2: in another world I'd be libertarian.

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Speaker 3: But if they're cute, it's like this world or yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm close, but not quite there were trouble for this one.

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Speaker 2: What would you be doing if not this, Like, what

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Speaker 2: would be a totally different like plan B for you?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I keep saying I'm going to fix education,

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Speaker 4: so I could just day drink. I frankly, I think

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Speaker 4: I'd probably get bored. I keep having this fantasy of

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Speaker 4: my mom is Irish, like I have like a very

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Speaker 4: weird family history, so I keep thinking I want to

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Speaker 4: like buy an Irish country estate and.

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Speaker 3: Fix it up.

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Speaker 4: Although a couple of years ago I watched too much

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Speaker 4: HDTV when I was on maternity leave and I decided

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Speaker 4: that we should move to Texas.

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Speaker 3: I think I was like really into that fixed rubber show.

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Speaker 2: Who among Us? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like the actual like really actually doing house things.

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Speaker 4: I'm not a handy person whatsoever. Like I'm like a

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Speaker 4: write a check person that also dates me.

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Speaker 3: I guess I'm like the same. Yeah, I would like.

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Speaker 4: To think I would like supervise like home renovations or something,

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Speaker 4: but I problem.

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Speaker 2: That's you know, look, you could hire people to do

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Speaker 2: stuff you don't have to, like, you know, reel the

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Speaker 2: hammer yourself. I yeah, feel like, but no, an Irish

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Speaker 2: pub in the countryside. I think it's not a bad life.

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Speaker 2: I you know, bring libertarianism to Ireland. They really could

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Speaker 2: do some They're really a mess. It's it's unfortunate. So

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Speaker 2: what advice would you give a sixteen year old Nikki Mealy?

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Speaker 4: So I'm a super insecure growing up and I think

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Speaker 4: probably what I would tell myself is not everyone's opinion matters,

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Speaker 4: Which is funny now because like I like, I don't

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Speaker 4: like my Twitter, Like I like things go out, but

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Speaker 4: like I don't read the messages because somebody like I

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Speaker 4: did your mom sixty nine on Twitter saying something mean

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Speaker 4: like devastating where it's like the Washington Post thing, I'm

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Speaker 4: like a like a hateful bigot is like kind of

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Speaker 4: doesn't bother me. And so I just like there are

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Speaker 4: a few people whose opinions actually matter. But otherwise, like

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Speaker 4: there's so much sound and noise out there, and this

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Speaker 4: is even like you know, I mean when you were

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Speaker 4: growing up, it was for social media, and so just

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Speaker 4: really you know, to kind of drown out the noise

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Speaker 4: and really focus in on whose opinion you value.

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Speaker 2: Where did you grow up?

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Speaker 3: I grew up in Chicago.

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Speaker 4: I grew up in the North Shore. So I'm an

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Speaker 4: aspiring jew. I was one of the few Christians and

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Speaker 4: so yeah, I tried to.

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Speaker 3: Get my.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like you're You're totally an honorary one.

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Speaker 2: If you ever want to join.

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Speaker 3: The fold, Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm on my way.

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Speaker 2: How did you get to d C? What was the path?

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Speaker 4: I went to grad school in California. I was looking

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Speaker 4: at I was looking at grad schools in d C.

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Speaker 4: And in California, I got a scholarship to go to Pepperdine.

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Speaker 4: I didn't get scholarships to go to DC, but I

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Speaker 4: was working in commercial real estate at the time, and

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Speaker 4: so I flew to d C. I met with the

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Speaker 4: admissions people at the DC schools and I said, this

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Speaker 4: is what Pepperdine's offering.

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Speaker 3: Can you match it? Can you beat it? And they

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Speaker 3: were like, we don't do scholarships that way.

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Speaker 4: And I was like, California, it is so I have

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Speaker 4: family out there. I had not spent a lot of

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Speaker 4: time out there, you know, and it was fun. I

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Speaker 4: decided that after a couple months of living in Malibu, fine,

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Speaker 4: I would actually go to college, like you know, it's

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Speaker 4: sonny every day.

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Speaker 3: It was fun.

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Speaker 4: It was actually that was where I was a Democrat

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Speaker 4: growing up, like all through college, like I was in

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Speaker 4: the student aclu, I put free Mooma posters up in

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Speaker 4: like my sworty, like what the good retrospect was the doing?

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Speaker 4: And it was in grad school that I had a

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Speaker 4: professor who had me read Milton Friedman, had me read Hayek,

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Speaker 4: and I was like, oh, there was a way to

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Speaker 4: help more people with dignity, and so.

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Speaker 3: That was really that was kind of what red pilled me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna ask whether, like a five year

404
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,560
Speaker 2: old Nikki Neely was like handing out copies of the

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Speaker 2: Cato Constitution.

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Speaker 3: Or not, but no, I wanted to. I wanted to.

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Speaker 3: I was a Democrat. I sent a mad letter to

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Speaker 3: George H. W.

409
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Speaker 4: Bush about like cutting down old trees, and I got

410
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Speaker 4: some letter back about like reading during Christmas break, and.

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Speaker 3: I was like, this is you needed me read it

412
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Speaker 3: even me care about the trees, and so.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was you know, like growing up, I thought

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Speaker 4: that my my dad was a Chicago Democrat. He always

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Speaker 4: voted for Daily and then I found out, you know,

416
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Speaker 4: years later, that he just wanted to smoke hot and

417
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Speaker 4: I didn't want to pay taxes and.

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Speaker 3: So like, yeah, among us you know, it turns out, yeah.

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Speaker 2: We're parents surprised about your shift.

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Speaker 4: Very much, So, yes, very much. So I think it

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Speaker 4: was I think it was probably a source of great disappointment.

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Speaker 4: I mean, my mom is like, she's the European, She's like,

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Speaker 4: everything in Ireland is free.

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Speaker 3: I was like, is it though, is that so? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Free stuff is always the most expensive stuff. Actually, exive,

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Speaker 2: I lived in Scotland. Everything was free there too, and

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Speaker 2: yet nobody could afford anything. It was like, do you

428
00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,199
Speaker 2: see what's going on here? Like all your free stuff

429
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Speaker 2: is maybe getting in the way of your being able

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Speaker 2: to provide for your families. Do you go back to Ireland?

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Speaker 3: I do. All my family's still there.

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Speaker 4: My mom is the only one who's in America actually,

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Speaker 4: so I go back, you know, once or twice a

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Speaker 4: year to see everybody. And my mom used to domp

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Speaker 4: me there when I was growing up, for like a

436
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Speaker 4: month every summer. And so I want my kids to

437
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 4: have that same connection to going back and visiting and

438
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Speaker 4: feeling comfortable, you know, eating the goofy Caprey chocolate bars

439
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:50,920
Speaker 4: and having bean some toast.

440
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,960
Speaker 2: Right, I mean yeah, and taking that step towards owning

441
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,920
Speaker 2: that that that pub right and again bringing libertarianism. I'm

442
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,080
Speaker 2: actually I'm fully down with your plan. I think this

443
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,159
Speaker 2: is the way forward for you. I think they you

444
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 2: run PDE out of the bar. You know, listen if

445
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:08,360
Speaker 2: it works out.

446
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:09,040
Speaker 3: It was my idea.

447
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,920
Speaker 4: I want President jad Vance to make me ambassard Ireland

448
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,000
Speaker 4: just so I can go there and be like, you

449
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 4: guys are super wrong on Palestine.

450
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,840
Speaker 3: I'm really sorry, like some sold me to their face.

451
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,960
Speaker 2: Right, Well, yes, that would be nice too. But in

452
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,800
Speaker 2: the meantime, you know, i'd be I'd be visiting you

453
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,919
Speaker 2: at your pub, regardless of their bad pub. We're going

454
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,920
Speaker 2: to take a quick break and be right back on

455
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:37,800
Speaker 2: the Carol Marcowitch Show. What's like in the future, do

456
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:43,200
Speaker 2: you grow PDE into an even more powerful force?

457
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,240
Speaker 3: I think so. I think that you know there is

458
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:46,920
Speaker 3: the world is our oyster. Now.

459
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,320
Speaker 4: It's been great to see the Trump administration really taking

460
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,720
Speaker 4: on a lot of these issues head on. They actually

461
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:53,639
Speaker 4: might help work me out of business, and I'm totally

462
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:54,159
Speaker 4: here for it.

463
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 3: I'm all good.

464
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, But I think there's going to be over the

465
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 4: next couple of years a lot of clean up. I

466
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 4: think there's we're gonna right now, We're seeing kind of

467
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,119
Speaker 4: a dens and disarray. But I think there is going

468
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,199
Speaker 4: to be a lot of hashtag resistance districts that are

469
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,400
Speaker 4: not going to comply programs that we go underground. And

470
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 4: it's funny because you know, you know, I am called,

471
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,440
Speaker 4: you know, a hater most of the time. I'm sure

472
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,440
Speaker 4: you know you get a fair amount of unpleasant mail

473
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 4: once in a while, and it's like, well, I want

474
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 4: people to I want children to be treated equally regardless

475
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,600
Speaker 4: of immutable characteristics. Like I'm really curious why people have

476
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 4: a problem with that. And so I think there's going

477
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,440
Speaker 4: to be just a lot of you know, messaging and

478
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 4: continuing to clean up the messages that have been wrought

479
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,439
Speaker 4: because this is I mean, this has taken place over.

480
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,160
Speaker 3: Fifty years, as it wasn't just over the past four years, right,

481
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:37,160
Speaker 3: So for.

482
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,160
Speaker 2: A long time PDE was in K through twelve education

483
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,959
Speaker 2: and working to kind of root out all the different

484
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,400
Speaker 2: problems within K through twelve a lot of the wokeness

485
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,159
Speaker 2: and that kind of thing, especially over the last few years.

486
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,479
Speaker 2: But now you're moving into the college space, which I

487
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 2: recall being skeptical about just because I think the colleges

488
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 2: are such a lost cause. But you don't seem to

489
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,760
Speaker 2: think that you you're full steam ahead.

490
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 3: Why do you think they're salvagable.

491
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,359
Speaker 4: I think that there's I think the colleges are salvageable.

492
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:06,920
Speaker 4: I do think there's going to be kind of some

493
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 4: some consolidation, some breakouts. I remember being at a Montpellar

494
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 4: meeting a couple of years ago and watching Jonathan Hite

495
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,200
Speaker 4: talk about a coming split in academy where he said

496
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 4: there's going to be Pursuit of Truth University and there's

497
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 4: going to be Social Justice University. And as of right now,

498
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 4: I mean today, I think it's very muddled because you

499
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 4: think you're going to one college that's going to teach you,

500
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 4: you know, pursuit of truth, and you're not.

501
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:29,600
Speaker 3: You're getting a bunch of woke garbage.

502
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 4: And I think if people want to fully opt into

503
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 4: going to some social justice university, that's fine, go spend

504
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 4: your money on that. But it's when people kind of

505
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 4: have the bait and switch for their problems. But I

506
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 4: think that there's a real governance issue where the inmates

507
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 4: have been allowed to run the asylum for far too long,

508
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,680
Speaker 4: and so to take some of that back for trustees

509
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 4: to play a role for there to be a stronger

510
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 4: role for.

511
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,120
Speaker 3: Administrations in this to rain in some of the excesses.

512
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,879
Speaker 4: I think we're sort of that kind of peak wackiness

513
00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 4: with both the cost of colleges as well in the

514
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 4: actual value.

515
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:01,719
Speaker 3: Of the product that's being delivered.

516
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 4: And so I think I think there's going to be

517
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 4: a real ground shift over the next couple of years,

518
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 4: both because of the regulatory compliance element, a lot of

519
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 4: universities of major legal exposure that I don't think even

520
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 4: trustees are fully aware of. I'm on the board of

521
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 4: two universities. I emailed one of them over the weekend

522
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 4: and said, what's.

523
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 3: The plan to comply?

524
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,639
Speaker 4: Because there's a lot of deadlines coming up, and so

525
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 4: I think programs are going to have to be terminated,

526
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 4: there's going to be layoffs, there's going to be program

527
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,879
Speaker 4: re alignments, and so don't think it's a really exciting

528
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 4: and dynamic time to be in higher education.

529
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 2: Do you have any bright spots, any any universities that

530
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 2: you could see kind of coming out of this moment

531
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 2: better and stronger and maybe as leaders of this freedom moment?

532
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,400
Speaker 4: You know, I think it's there's none that really come

533
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,439
Speaker 4: to mind. You know, the University Chicago was good on

534
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 4: some speech stuff, but they still have some bad programs.

535
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 3: You know.

536
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 4: Strough Florida and the Hamilton Center has made great strides

537
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 4: into in the right direction.

538
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 3: It's devastated with Ben's as said he was stepping.

539
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 4: Down, but I think will in Bodens but it's like

540
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 4: just kind of watching the pressure that they have even

541
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 4: put on the marketplace.

542
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 3: I think other universities are realizing Wow.

543
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 4: I mean, you know the fact that Harvard early admit

544
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 4: applications were down thirty percent last year. That's a huge

545
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,880
Speaker 4: that's thousands of applications. It's a large number. A lot

546
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 4: of these universities, you know, they look at those application

547
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 4: fees as another income stream and so for them to

548
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 4: start to see these market signals and realize, so, well,

549
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 4: we're not getting as many applicants this year.

550
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:28,479
Speaker 3: What is going on? Why is that?

551
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 4: Why are kids from the mid Atlantic region all apply

552
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 4: to schools in the SEC in the South?

553
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 3: Something's going on here? Yeah, I think.

554
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 4: Is some some administrators are getting the message. Others are not,

555
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 4: and they're going to be the dinosaurs. They're gonna be

556
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:42,400
Speaker 4: four step jobs eventually.

557
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 2: Were you surprised at that thirty percent job. Like, I'm

558
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 2: pretty shocked about it, honestly, Like even I wouldn't want

559
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 2: my kids to go to you know, basically at any

560
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: school right now, and thankfully my kids are a few

561
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 2: years off from it. But still if they, you know,

562
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 2: were able to apply to Harvard, I would still want

563
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 2: them to I guess, you know. So I was surprised

564
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 2: at that.

565
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's I think the prestige of it

566
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 4: was also the fact that I think a lot of

567
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 4: federal judges said, we're not hiring clerks from here.

568
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 3: I think that there.

569
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 4: Has been a lot just it's been a really there's

570
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 4: been a lot of churn on like a number of

571
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 4: industries over the past few months, and I think that's

572
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 4: probably going to continue. I mean, the absolute unrepentance of

573
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 4: some of these university administrators.

574
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 3: Has been kind of jaw dropping.

575
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 4: I mean, think back to I guess suddenly over a

576
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 4: year ago when there was that hearing with Harvard and

577
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 4: pen and MIT.

578
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 3: The MIT president said that she was.

579
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 4: Not disciplining students because she didn't want to impact their

580
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 4: visa status.

581
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 3: I mean, fast forward to now, and it.

582
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 4: Is a very serious proposal to actually just yank the

583
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 4: visas of those kids full stop.

584
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 3: Why are we letting some of the people like that

585
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 3: in anyway?

586
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 4: And so I think some of these administrators have really

587
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 4: like they've they've found Jesus, because like they are realizing

588
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 4: that there they are deep, deep trouble and that there

589
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 4: is going to be a side of the federal investigations

590
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 4: which take, you know, thousands of hours and millions of

591
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 4: dollars to kind of adjudicate and deal with behind the scenes.

592
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 4: The reputational damage is astonishing. I mean, I would not

593
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 4: allow my kids to apply to Harvard. I would tell

594
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 4: them I'm not co signing your student loans, right, And

595
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 4: so I think there's a lot of people like that,

596
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 4: because you know, there are real safety concerns as well.

597
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 4: But even prior to all the October seventh stuff. I mean,

598
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 4: as the mother of a boy, there are colleges that

599
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 4: I would not have sent my son to because of

600
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 4: seeing how they dealt with Title nine. Having stued a

601
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 4: lot of universities over First Amendment issues, I know the

602
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 4: ones that have silenced students and have not treated them

603
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 4: properly because of perceived microaggressions. And so there are more

604
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 4: than a few universities that I would not send my

605
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 4: kids and my money to including both my alma mater

606
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 4: and my husband's all the water which which are which

607
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 4: ones University of Illinois for me and University of Texas

608
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 4: for my husband. So it still calls every year asking

609
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 4: for donations, and I say, you know how much money

610
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 4: spent on gibs and done.

611
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:44,719
Speaker 3: No.

612
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so tough though I don't want to like

613
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 2: opt my kids out of what remain kind of the

614
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 2: most elite universities. And yes, I love that there's fewer

615
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: firms pulling from these universities, but still Harvard Student has

616
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 2: every door in the world open to them, you know,

617
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 2: as a Jew from the former Soviet Union. The idea

618
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: that my kids won't be able to go to some

619
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 2: schools again the way my parents and my grandparents couldn't

620
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: you know, there's something difficult about that, But I understand obviously,

621
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: and I again, I'm glad not to be having to

622
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 2: face this until you are able to fix our entire

623
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 2: college system and in the next few years by the

624
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 2: time my kids apply.

625
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 3: So it's been funny.

626
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 4: Even so Town and Country has been They've been running

627
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 4: this series about like the New Ivys, and so even

628
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 4: I mean, when you've lost town and country, like you've

629
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 4: really kind of you've sort of lost like the elite

630
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 4: and so yeah, just like what actually gives you value

631
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 4: for money? Like where will your child get a job

632
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 4: with a degree that they can actually go take and

633
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 4: use in their role?

634
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: Are you optimistic over like the next decade about.

635
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 3: The next time?

636
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 4: I think there's going to be you know, like I

637
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 4: like the fact that Trump is doing all this stuff

638
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 4: basically from day one, because it means.

639
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 3: That there's no bigger there's four years of enforcement on this.

640
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 4: And that means that a lot of the actions that

641
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 4: are being taken now we're going to set in, I mean,

642
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 4: the layoffs, kind of the program termination. You know, what's

643
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 4: that Reagan saying, like the closest thing to eternal life

644
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 4: is is a government program. I mean, you know, four

645
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 4: years of like like putting a stake through the heart

646
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 4: of something, like, it's gonna be pretty hard for some

647
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 4: of this stuff to come.

648
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 2: Back, right.

649
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 4: I don't know if I'm crazy about like the bounties

650
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 4: that some places have been putting out like that feels

651
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 4: a little creepy.

652
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 3: But beyond that, I think.

653
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 4: You know, people are sort of starting to feel like, oh,

654
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 4: it's nice to be like I can breathe a little

655
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 4: bit without having that beat on my throat, right, and

656
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 4: it's refreshing.

657
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, the breathing, I'm all about it. So end us

658
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: here with your best tip for my listeners on how

659
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: they can improve their lives.

660
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 3: I think you get out of life what you put

661
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 3: into it.

662
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 4: So I like, I work a lot of hours, and

663
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 4: I realized it's funny. I just had lunch with a

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Speaker 4: friend and I said, you know, I really actually need

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Speaker 4: to work on this congressional testimony. And I was like, no,

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Speaker 4: I have to like put my computer down and like

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Speaker 4: actually go and like talk to somebody and clear my head.

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Speaker 3: And it was worry.

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Speaker 4: When I was getting one of my organizations off the ground,

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Speaker 4: I was talking to a donor and he said, you know,

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00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 4: do you.

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Speaker 3: Ever get to like kind of stop and think? And

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Speaker 3: I was like, sorry, I don't get to have dinner

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Speaker 3: with my family, Like what do you stop and think?

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Speaker 3: Who does that?

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Speaker 4: To actually be able to take a step back, you know,

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Speaker 4: and clear your head? I think actually is like is

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Speaker 4: really productive and so you know, to actually I find

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Speaker 4: that as an adult now, it's so easy. My default

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00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 4: setting is like I just want to sit on my

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00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 4: couch like and like you know, eat dinner and like

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00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 4: not talk to anybody. But every time I go out,

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00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 4: I connect with a friend, somebody's in town. I'm like,

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00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 4: you know, on a trip, and I go to like

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Speaker 4: a restaurant, like it's like it's fun.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad that I went.

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Speaker 4: And I find that I have to push myself and

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Speaker 4: so just I encourage people to, like, you know, get

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Speaker 4: out and go do something because more often than not,

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Speaker 4: you won't regret it.

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Speaker 2: I love it. Go touch Grass. She is Nicky Neely.

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Speaker 2: Her group is Parents Defending Education. They're fantastic. Check them out.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks so much for joining us on the

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Speaker 1: Carol Marcowitch Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.