1 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. I'm really excited because 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: I recently read John Moody's book Of Course They Knew, 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: and I was really amazed by the fact that John 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: used fictional characters a dramatic license to really help us 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: understand the pandemic and the threat we faced with China. 6 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: As all of you know, I've co authored a book 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: with Claire Christiansen on Trump versus China. I spent a 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: lot of time over the last sixty years on China, 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: and I thought that John in this book was able 10 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: to weave together several threads, including an Italian thread, which 11 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: because of Costa's role as the ambassador of the Vatican, 12 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: we had spent three and a half years in Italy, 13 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: the last year of it during the COVID attack, which 14 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: was very severe in northern Italy, and I thought John 15 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: absolutely captured what had happened in Italy in a way 16 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: that was amazing. And the tension inside the European Union 17 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: as average everyday people realized that the Russell bureaucracy as elitist, 18 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 1: globalist and does not have any interest in their lives 19 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: or their reality. So when I finished, I've really wanted 20 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: to talk with John because he's a former editor and 21 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: executive vice president at Fox News. I've known him for 22 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: many years. He's a very tough minded researcher, and I 23 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: think you're going to find us to be fascinating conversation. 24 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: So John, thank you for joining me today. Dude, it's 25 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: a great pleasure to be here. You grew up in Pittsburgh, 26 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: as you know, I was born in Harrisburg. You were 27 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: an executive vice president for Fox News from its founding 28 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: in ninety six to May two thousand and nine, so 29 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: you're one of the key executives who grew what now 30 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: is overwhelmingly the dominant news organization in the United States. 31 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: And you've had quite a life. You've lived in New York, Moscow, Paris, 32 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: bond Warsaw, Mexico, Costa Rica, in Rome, among other places. 33 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: And before your box engagement, you were a correspondent for 34 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: Time magazine from nineteen eighty two to nineteen ninety six. 35 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: So you really bring a lot of different talent and 36 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: a lot of different personal experiences to bear. And one 37 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: of the themes of your new book, of Course They Knew, 38 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: explains how the Chinese Communist Party's power and influence works. 39 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: What inspired you to write on this scene, well, nude. 40 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: I spent most of twenty twenty getting angry at what 41 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: I was seeing and hearing and reading as this virus, 42 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: which we're always told to call COVID now because it 43 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: might upset the Chinese if we call it the Wuhan flu, 44 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: just kept spreading, getting worse, and the rest of the 45 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: world seemed to hold its hands out, palms upward and saying, please, 46 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: please tell us what to do, and the only people 47 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: with any ideas seemed to be the Chinese. And the 48 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: more I read about this, the more I saw what 49 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: was going on. You know that China exported this virus 50 00:02:58,040 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: to the rest of the world, and then they told 51 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: us the best way to guard against it was to 52 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: wear masks that are made in China. So it's sort 53 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: of business creating business. And the longer I looked at it, 54 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: the more I thought, well, there needs to be a 55 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: response to this. I couldn't do the kind of reporting 56 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: that I wanted to the standards that I would have 57 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 1: held myself to or anybody that worked for me in 58 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: the past, because the China, of course, was not going 59 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: to cooperate. They weren't going to let me in they 60 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: weren'ting to tell me anything, and so I decided to 61 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: do it in novel form, but with the real facts 62 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: that we all experienced over the past two years. When 63 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: you sat down to write that, I was fascinating because 64 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: you weaved together the United States, China, and Italy in patterns. 65 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: The first of all, I think feel exactly right having 66 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: looked at all of that, But in addition, you bring 67 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: them together in a way that compounds explaining the nature 68 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: of the Chinese communist dictatorship. And I'm very curious if 69 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: I can draw three things when you do with fiction, 70 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: things that are clearly real events, things that are plausibly 71 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: real based on what you know from real events, and 72 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: then things which are sort of moved the drama along. 73 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: How did in your own mind as you're writing it, 74 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: how did you divide those things up? If that makes 75 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: sense to you as a way of thinking about it, Well, yeah, 76 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,239 Speaker 1: of course it does. And I think that you've probably 77 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: done the same thing in the novels that you've written. Look, 78 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: these people are all based on real human beings that 79 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: I encountered, that I heard about, that I read about. 80 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: You have to use different names. It's a novel. You 81 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: don't want to use somebody's real name and exploit them. 82 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: So I changed the names. I created some characters, but 83 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: it's very much based on reality, and as far as 84 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 1: the structure of the Chinese Communist Party goes, I think 85 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: the most important thing for your listeners and anyone to 86 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: understand is this is an evil empire. I mean, I 87 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: know that was Ronald Reagan's statement before a long time ago, 88 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: but this is an evil empire that the Communists have 89 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: built in China. They are not part of the four 90 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: and thinking Western liberal way of looking at life and 91 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: looking at governance. They're a power structure and their only 92 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: goal is to stay in power, and so I wanted 93 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: to get that across. Shi Jinping has famously labeled his 94 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: way of governing socialism with Chinese characteristics. Well, you know, 95 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: that's a little bit like the Italian mafia saying, you know, 96 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: democracy at gunpoint. No. I like that, and I like 97 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: the way in the novel that you would every once 98 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: while have something happen and you would just drop in 99 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,679 Speaker 1: socialism with Chinese characteristics. So when you think about what's 100 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: happened in Hong Kong, or you think about what's happened 101 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 1: to wagers, or what's been happening to the Buddhist monks 102 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,239 Speaker 1: in Tibet, or what happens to you if you're openly 103 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: a dissent. I mean they not only disappear people. The 104 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: highest paid actress in the world was disappeared for six months, 105 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: apparently because she hadn't paid her taxes, but I think 106 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: actually because dictatorship wanted to communicate to everybody in China, 107 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: if we'll disappear her, you have no defense against us, 108 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: and I think everyone's while you'll drop it in. But 109 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: you also dropped in similar phrases about the West, where 110 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: I think you do a better job than anybody I've 111 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: seen of reminding us that the willingness to Cao Tao, 112 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: to the Chinese dictatorship has penetrated deeply into the Western system. 113 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: It certainly has newt What I tried to use as 114 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: the corollary to socialism with Chinese characteristics was democracy with 115 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: American characteristics. And indeed various administrations have decided that it's 116 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: just not worth taking China on straightforwardly, we're too dependent 117 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: on their exports, we're too dependent on trade with them, 118 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: we're too dependent on really confronting them. Because of the 119 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: size of their military and the scope of their investments. 120 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: They own a lot of our debt. They're creating this 121 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: belt and road. It's already been created, i should say, 122 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: where they invest billions of dollars in corrupt loans to 123 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: third world countries and then promised to build airports, promised 124 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: to build canals, promised to build roads. It's all intended 125 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: to tie them closer to Beijing. And then eventually Beijing says, hey, 126 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: you know that loan that we gave you, We're calling 127 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: it in now unless you do what we tell you. 128 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: And that's what the Belton Road Program is. It's blackmail 129 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: by any other name. So it's a very comprehensive book 130 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: in a way. You've managed relatively few pages to really 131 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: pull together a lot. What was the research process like, 132 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: because I realized that while as a novel, as a 133 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: novel which is really based on an extraordinarily in depth 134 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: understanding of the system, yeah, thank you for that, the 135 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: research was painful. The research was long. The research was 136 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: frustrating again because there was no way to ask the 137 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: Chinese government or go to the Chinese embassy and ask 138 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: you for some help here. They just weren't going to talk. 139 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: It was also perilous to reach out to Chinese or 140 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: Chinese Americans that I've met over the course of my 141 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: career to ask them for help, because you can make 142 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: a phone call to China, but you have to assume 143 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: that it's being listened in on and so I didn't 144 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: want to get those people in trouble. I was sort 145 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: of reduced to talking to Chinese living in the United 146 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: States and Europe to get them to confirm what I 147 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: thought I had already learned from the various news organizations 148 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: and my own fairly deep research. They helped a lot. 149 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: I'll never forget what one of them said to me, 150 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: and I used it in the book. He said, the 151 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: truth is not what you have learned. The truth is 152 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: what the party tells you. You have to understand that 153 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: if you're going to understand China, that's a chilling thing 154 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: to be told. I mean, that's nineteen eighty four Orwellian stuff. 155 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: The ministry of truth is actually the ministry of lies. 156 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: The Chinese Communist Party is here to help you as 157 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: long as you don't cross them. And it's that kind 158 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: of impossible logic that the Chinese Communist Party has imposed 159 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 1: on one point six billion people, and Ashley the rest 160 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: of the world as well. But the fact is the 161 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: nature of a tetolitarian system, whether it was the Soviets 162 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: or the Nazis or the Chinese Communist is to assert 163 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: the ability to impose truth. Of Chris and I did 164 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: a movie about Saint John Paul the Second called Nine 165 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 1: Days That Change the World, and we've filmed in a 166 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: number of places in Poland because the movie is about 167 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 1: the nine Days and seventy nine where John Paul the Second, 168 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: then Pope John Paul scond went back home as the 169 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:00,599 Speaker 1: first Polish pope in history and had you crowds and 170 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 1: an enormous impact on the system. And so we went 171 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: and filmed and talked to a lot of people from 172 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: that era. And because they liked what we're doing, they 173 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: gave me a wallposter which I have in my office 174 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: which says in Polish, just came from nineteen eighty one. 175 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: For Poland to remain Poland, two plus two must always 176 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: equal four. And they were saying, in a sense exactly 177 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: your point from the opposite side, which is when you 178 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: say to the tutolitarian state, no, you don't get to 179 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: reframe the facts you're actually threatening Jijianping, or threatening Joseph 180 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: Stalin or whoever. It is at the very core of 181 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 1: their being because their dictatorship requires the ability to brainwash 182 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: everybody into whatever this week's truth is. And I thought 183 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: you did a really good job of building in and 184 00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: explaining that model and how much people learn to retrain themselves. 185 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: The state doesn't have to do it. They do it 186 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: voluntarily because they know what the queuing system is and 187 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: they want to make sure that they don't trigger some 188 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: kind of punishment or some kind of isolation. To what extent, 189 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: in that sense, were you shaped by what you've learned 190 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: about China? And to what extent were you shaped by 191 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: Orwell and extraordinary description of its autilitarian state? Dude, I 192 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: think nineteen eighty four is one of the scariest pieces 193 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: of literature that's ever been created. And Orwell had his 194 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 1: target insights, he knew what he was saying. And whether 195 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 1: they call it totalitarianism, communism, fascism, it is as you say, 196 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: it is the need of the authorities, the need of 197 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: whatever party is in power, to say we run your life. 198 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: You don't run your life. You do what we tell you, 199 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: or you will suffer, and the Communist Party of China 200 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: has done a fantastic job of that. They use intimidation, 201 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: they use family connection, who are threatened with bad things 202 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 1: if you don't do what they tell you, and it's 203 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: one of the scariest and most successful real life systems 204 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: to be formed. I would say Hitler did the next 205 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: best job at it. But Hitler was working with a 206 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: much smaller population, and he was working against a much 207 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: stronger United States of America in those days. So I'm 208 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: curious as you did this research, and I do commend 209 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: to our listeners that you really caught the rhythm of 210 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: Italy of the United States of China. It's remarkable. What 211 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: was the biggest surprise to you? The biggest surprise, Newt 212 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: was how meekly Americans folded under the threat of this virus, 213 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: which we are supposed to call COVID. Everybody got scared. 214 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: Twenty twenty was an amazingly horrible year for the United States, 215 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: for most of the world, but especially for the United States, 216 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: which of course is our country and we care about it. 217 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: You had three things happening. You had the outbreak of COVID, 218 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: which nobody stood and nobody understood how to defend against 219 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,839 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, and so that was terrifying, and we 220 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: immediately began to blame each other for the spread of COVID, Democrats, Republicans, conservatives, liberals, 221 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. Secondly, we had the 222 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: social protests that swept across the United States. The Black 223 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: Lives Matter and related protest movements were in full gear, 224 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 1: and they were abetted by the news media, which failed 225 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: to say, by the way, there's a lot of rioting 226 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: going on, there's a lot of looting going on, and 227 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: there's a lot of arson going on. Once you start 228 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: committing arson and looting, you're no longer protesting social justice, 229 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: You're rioting. And the news media just could not bring 230 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: themselves to say that somebody was standing in front of 231 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: a police car on fire doing a live shot on 232 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: television and said, well, this has been fiery, but largely peaceful. 233 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: And then the third, of course, was the twenty twenty 234 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: presidential election, which was just a clown show on wheels. 235 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: But he'd ever seen such low brow exchanges between two 236 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: presidential candidates, and I think the country got scared, what's 237 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: going on? Where are we headed? What's going to happen 238 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 1: to us. Are we going to die from COVID, Are 239 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: we going to die in civil war protests and fighting 240 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: each other? Or are we going to have something happened 241 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: to the essence of our democracy? So those three things 242 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: all knitted together, and that's what I was trying to use, 243 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: at least for the American part of the book, to 244 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: explain that we have never ever been so meek and 245 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: bended knee and ready to accept what anybody told us 246 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: if it just saved our miserable lives. One of the 247 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: things I'm curious about is you have had a long 248 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: career in the news media. What's your own reaction to 249 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: how the news media has evolved over the last ten 250 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: or fifteen years. It's been an abdication of our responsibility. 251 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: When I was working at Fox and people would come 252 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: in and they wanted to be interviewed for a possible job. 253 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: I've said this man times and it's still true. When 254 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: someone came in and said, you know, I'd like to 255 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: work for Fox, and I would say, well, why do 256 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: you want to do that? And if the answer was 257 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: I want to make the world a better place, I 258 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: said thank you for coming in. My secretary Will show 259 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: you out. Now. You're not here to make the world 260 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: a better place. You're here to tell people what you saw, 261 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: what you witness, what you've learned, and what you can 262 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: report accurately. The news media, and I'm afraid I have 263 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: to say that it's television more rapidly than the print 264 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: or the lagasier. Television has decided that they are the 265 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: new leaders of opinion, and they will direct the people 266 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: in the way they want to go. You know, a 267 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: very famous newspaper owner a long time ago said, give 268 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: light to the people and they will find their own way. Well, 269 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: what's going on now is you give your opinion to 270 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: the people and see if they'll follow you. I'm just 271 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: very disheartened with what's happened, and I mean that in 272 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: terms of both the left and the right. This used 273 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: to be a great art and a great fashion, and 274 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: it's now turned into what I can just call the 275 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: information industry. Then that's a piece of this whole story 276 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: that kind of investigated reporting people would have done at 277 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: one time. We've been through losing far more lives than 278 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: we lost in all of World War Two, and yet 279 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: there's almost no really serious investigative reporting either about the 280 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: collapse of our public health system, or about the role 281 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: of the Chinese, or about the degree to which so 282 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: called experts have just been wrong and have then lied 283 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: about being wrong. I mean in the senses of vacuum 284 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: of people trying to figure out with accuracy what's really 285 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: going on. Well, you've just used one of those words, 286 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: you know. I remember the old three stooges routines and 287 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: would say slowly I turned step by step whenever they 288 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: heard a key word that just touched them off. Experts 289 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: who are experts, Please explain to me what an expert is. 290 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: Please identify an expert, and then let that expert prove 291 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: his or her worth in the field he's been labeled 292 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: an expert in you now have headlines every day and 293 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: sometimes twice in the same headline. Experts say you have 294 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: to have a booster shot. Experts say, well, one booster 295 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: shot may not be enough. Experts say, these are all 296 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: people who journalists have called up and said, hey, we 297 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: want to do a story on booster shots. Can you 298 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: please tell us that three booster shots aren't enough? And 299 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: the guy says, yeah, they're not enough. So that big 300 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:57,239 Speaker 1: person becomes an expert because he agrees with you. One 301 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: of the things you came up with, which I thought 302 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: was very compelling, was that you could in fact have 303 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: the bat ending up in the wet market but having 304 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: come from the laboratory. In a sense, it's one of 305 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: the most creative parts of the book and sort of 306 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,360 Speaker 1: fits all the facts as we know them. What led 307 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: you to that particular notion, I think it was very 308 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: well done well. One of the things that I was 309 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: able to research a bit was the Wuhan Virological Laboratory. 310 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a real place. It's seven story building 311 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,719 Speaker 1: on the edge of Wuhan. It is very close to 312 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: a wet market. And what I also learned is that 313 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: employees of that virological institute are so badly paid that 314 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: they sometimes take the test animals that they have been 315 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: experimenting on over to the wet market and sell them 316 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: for food. It's a way of supplementing their income, and 317 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 1: it's socialism with Chinese characteristics. And so that was the 318 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: choice that I decided on to explain how the bat 319 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: or the virus got out of the lab. The other 320 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: thing I learned about the lab is the second floor 321 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: of the lab has very low security. You could almost 322 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: walk in there and tap somebody on the shoulder and say, hey, 323 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: what are you doing today? And that is where some 324 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: of the experimentation on bats in particular was taking place. 325 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: So it's not a big leap of logic to imagine 326 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: that from the second floor to the wet market is 327 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: where things went. Wasn't it remarkably irresponsible and dangerous to 328 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: engage in the kind of research that would maximize the 329 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: ability of a virus to jump from an animal to 330 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: a human. Yes, in the way that it was used 331 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: in real life. I think that scientists and virologists have 332 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: the right and the responsibility to look at worst case 333 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: scenarios so that they can prevent them, not so that 334 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: they can release them on the world. It's fine to 335 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: look at a disease and say, wow, you know, this 336 00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: is really bad, what would happen if it got even 337 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: because you're looking for an answer, you're not looking for 338 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: a weapon. And what happened in China in Wuhan was 339 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: they looked at the virus in its infancy, they said, 340 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: we could probably weaponize this, and then they did, and 341 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: they sent ten thousand people from Wuhan out on international 342 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: flights to spread the virus. Yes, irresponsible, And it was 343 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: even more irresponsible for American virologists to help in this 344 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: research and share data with their Chinese colleagues, not knowing 345 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: that the research was going to be done for good 346 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: and not evil. Well, and in fact, I think we 347 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: actually paid for some of it. We absolutely did. That's 348 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: how America handles China. We pay them to tell us 349 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: what they've learned and to export their goods to US. 350 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: Boy did they ever export a winner for us? So 351 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: you end up with the US government funding the research 352 00:20:55,160 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: which helped create the easily transferred and easily spread Wuhan virus. 353 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: So you could argue, technically, yes, it came out of 354 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: a bat, but it was designed it would literally been 355 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: redesigned to be very good at moving among humans. But 356 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: in fact I saw several references from the last six 357 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: months of people saying this had to have been engineered 358 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: because the speed with which it spread would not have 359 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: happened with a natural bat virus, which would have taken 360 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: time to get used to being in humans, And this 361 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,479 Speaker 1: clearly had been designed to be in humans. I mean, 362 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: wasn't that total irresponsibility? Nude? I think the answer is 363 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 1: that the Chinese knew what they were doing. I think 364 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 1: they did not realize how fast the virus would get 365 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: out of their control. This zero COVID policy that we 366 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: hear about now in China is really just an elaborate 367 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: scam so that the Olympics in Beijing can start next 368 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: month on time and they won't be blamed for infecting 369 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: athletes and infecting their own people. But when the research 370 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: was being done, it was always being done with the 371 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: idea of infecting humans. And that is again, as you 372 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: put it, very well, irresponsible in the extreme and probably criminal. 373 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: But of course, what court is going to be the 374 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: judge of Chinese behavior. Well, at the same time, the 375 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: very people who were providing the money and the expertise 376 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: are now the experts who lecture us and who denied 377 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: their own responsibility. I mean doctor Fauci clearly was in 378 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 1: the middle of all of this then apparently made a 379 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: decision very early on to just lie about it. Yeah. 380 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: I mean again, there's that trip word experts, and you 381 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: can be an expert. I mean, gosh, you're an expert 382 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 1: on politics. You're an expert now on a Vatican because 383 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: you and your wife were such key players there for 384 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: a while. Yes, you're a real expert. I guess I 385 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: could call myself an expert on the news media because 386 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: I've spent forty five years in it. But to get 387 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: somebody just agree with you and then to anoint them 388 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: with the term expert is irresponsible in the extreme. And 389 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: whatever doctor fauci knew, he certainly hasn't been forthcoming with 390 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: the American people, even though he has become a TV 391 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: star and I think quite well reimbursed for all of 392 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: his troubles, but you know, openness is not one of 393 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: his best qualities, you know. On a totally different front, 394 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: one of the things that I found most interesting was 395 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: your development of a young American college student who has 396 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: basically learned to China to work on artificial intelligence, and 397 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: then the conversations in which they talk about the use 398 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: of artificial intelligence and the Chinese analysis of the dysfunction 399 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: of America. I mean, I thought those sections were extraordinarily insightful. 400 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: How did you get into thinking about artificial intelligence as 401 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: a component of this Artificial intelligence is going to change 402 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: the way we do research, It's going to change the 403 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: way we learn things, and it's going to change the 404 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: way we treat each other. You already have drones flying 405 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: around powered by artificial intelligence. There's no pilot, There is 406 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: just a button in a control room somewhere. It's going 407 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: to move on from there. China is creating artificial intelligence 408 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: soldiers at this point, troops that will not be under 409 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 1: human command, but will make decisions based on AI. How 410 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: I got interested in it was I actually do know 411 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: a young person that A had great potential to do 412 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: research in artificial intelligence, and B had soured on the 413 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: United States and US democracy, and so China was the 414 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: natural destination. Wow, that's amazing. Well, the world you were 415 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: describing is actually pretty frightening. I mean, in some ways 416 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: the artificial intelligence sections of your novel are as sobering 417 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: and as intimidating as anything you wrote about the virus. 418 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 1: Did you find yourself having that same reaction? Oh yeah, 419 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: I scared myself to death when I was writing this. Look. 420 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: AI is just like any big new development. It can 421 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: be used for good, it can be used for evil. 422 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: I think that the American efforts to cultivate artificial intelligence 423 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: and to improve it are being used for good. For 424 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: the most part. Medical of research that takes years for 425 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: people to do can be done in minutes by AI. 426 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: But of course if you turn it around and you say, well, 427 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: we're going to create a battalion of troops that aren't 428 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: human and aren't run by humans, and if they have 429 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 1: a bullet pierced them, it doesn't matter. They'll just keep 430 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: on moving because they've been told what to do, or 431 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: they've decided themselves what to do because their machines that 432 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: are smarter than people. Yes, it's very scary, and it's 433 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: another reason to confront China before they leap too far 434 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: ahead of us and we can't catch up. You use 435 00:25:54,800 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: the Chinese to describe the dysfunctionality of the American system 436 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 1: as it's evolved in the last twenty years, and it's 437 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: very sober. I mean, I thought it was very compelling 438 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: and made a lot of sense. It also really raises 439 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: a question about how long we can remain this divided 440 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: and not have a real crisis. And I thought by 441 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: doing it the way you did it, you make it 442 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: very thought provoking. Is that a major sub theme of yours? Yes, 443 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: I'm terribly worried, nude about the division in our country. 444 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: Now we've taken advantage of the opportunities that America gives 445 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: us and unfortunately many of us have used them in 446 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: a dangerous and harmful way. People don't talk about themselves 447 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: as Americans anymore. I'm an African American, I'm an Italian American. 448 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 1: I'm a Polish American. Well, okay, we celebrate where you 449 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 1: came from, but you're in America now, and we don't 450 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: want to turn America into any of the places that 451 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: you came from. It's America. You are American first. The 452 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: divisions that we have allowed to become common discourse every 453 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: day on the front page of the New York Times 454 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: and elsewhere on CNN have divided us even further, and 455 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: they've legitimized the idea that we are just an assortment 456 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: of tribes that have been forced to live together, and 457 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: we don't like each other, but we can't move anywhere else, 458 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: so we're going to try to take over your turf. 459 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: I understand that you're currently working on a sequel, and 460 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: you give us a teaser as to why we should 461 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: get it and what it's going to be like. Yes, 462 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: and thank you for the offer. It largely deals with 463 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, and it also deals with human emotions versus 464 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: artificially inserted emotions. And in the end, we are still 465 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: at least right now people. And if you love someone, 466 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: and if you love your country, and if you love 467 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: its cause, can that be as powerful as artificial intelligence, 468 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: which decides things for you in a nanosecond. That's the question, 469 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: and that's the debate. Did you have a title for 470 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: it yet? I do, and I'm just going to wait 471 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: until it gets out there and hope that everybody remembers. Well. 472 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: My hope is when you get that book out there, 473 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: you'll come back and do another conversation with us and 474 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: share up with people about your new book. I can 475 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: tell you I'm looking forward very much to reading it, 476 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 1: and I think that it's quite remarkable the work you've done, 477 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: and I think that, of course they knew, is a 478 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: significant contribution to understanding what's actually happening in the world 479 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: right now. And I would recommend it to anybody as 480 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: a very thought provoking and very serious book. Well coming 481 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: from you, that's high praise, indeed, and I thank you. 482 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: And I just want to say that of all the 483 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: interviews that I've done about this book, yours has been 484 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: the most penetrating, sharp and intelligent one, and I thank 485 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: you for that as well. Well, thank you, and I 486 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: look forward to doing the next one about the next book, 487 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: all right, John, Thanks Nut. Thank you to my guests, 488 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: John Moody. You can get a link to order his book, 489 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: of course they knew on our showpage at newtsworld dot com. 490 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: Newts World is produced by Gingwish three sixty and iHeartMedia. 491 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Garnsey Sloan, our producer is Rebecca Howe, 492 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. Your work for the 493 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the 494 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: team at Gingwich three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 495 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 496 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 497 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 498 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: of newts World can sign up from my three free 499 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: weekly columns at Gingwich three sixty dot com slash newsletter. 500 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: I'm newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.