1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know from house Stuff Works 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and Jerry's over there. 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: And this is part two of the Trail of Tears, 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: which we already did part one. If you haven't heard that, 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: I would strongly recommend you go listen to that one first. Yes, uh, 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: and just a fifteen second recap of part one. Um, 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: we earned eighteen thirty roughly, and uh, America is getting 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,319 Speaker 1: along great with Native Americans and they say, why don't 10 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: we all just live together and we can all just 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: share wealth the end. Oh wait, that's not what was 12 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: happening at all. No Americans wanted more land Indians headland. 13 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 1: Americans felt that the Indians weren't putting it to good 14 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: enough use and used that to morally justify forcing them 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: to leave their land. That's right in the forum officially 16 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: of the eighteen thirty Removal Act. And uh, that's where 17 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: we pick up in the government said, you know what, 18 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: let's start off with future podcaster Chuck Bryant's tribe, the 19 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: Choco Tall. Are you Choco Tall? I have very uh 20 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: negligible amount of chocodall as long as it's not negligent. No. 21 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: In fact, I'm not exactly sure how much, but I 22 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: know my uh we but I think my dad did 23 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: my family tree at one point and I got some 24 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: chocd on me. I love Choctaw. Yeah, that's great. So 25 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: they picked the Choctall because they said, um, well they're 26 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: pretty friendly and we think this can be a good 27 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: um I mean, was it sort of a proof of concept? 28 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: That's what I how this could work. They said, how 29 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: about you guys go first? And the Choctaw said, okay, fine, 30 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: we'll sign this. We'll sign this treaty where we're going 31 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: to seed all of our land east of the Mississippi 32 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: to the federal government and in exchange, we're going to 33 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: get a sizeable amount of land in this new Indian 34 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: territory what you guys will later call Oklahoma. And the 35 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: Choctaw again, they they went largely willingly, even though they 36 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: were split internally, like all the tribes were to some degree, right, 37 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: but the the there were and there were three divisions. 38 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 1: In the Eastern division, which was led by Chief Mushila 39 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: tobi Uh. He basically said, you know what, we're not 40 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: gonna win this war. Let's just we'll just sign this treaty. 41 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: So he negotiated the treaty, and the Choctaw moved, and 42 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: as they were moving, they they the whole thing was 43 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: carried out, The whole Indian removal process was carried out 44 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: by the War Department, which in and of itself says something. 45 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: The fact that it's being carried out by federal soldiers 46 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: with guns and bayonets, um, rather than say, some other 47 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: civilian department. That in and of itself says a lot. Right, 48 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: that's going to form a certain type of um tension 49 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: to the whole thing. Yeah, it reminds me of the 50 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: great movie. Uh, Doctor Strangelove. There's no fighting in the 51 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,239 Speaker 1: war room. It's one of the best lines from that movie. 52 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: So the Choctaw are going. Some of them said no, 53 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: I'm not going, and they were shackled and bound and 54 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: were forced to undertake this journey. Um. I think if 55 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: you if you look at the the trail that the 56 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: Cherokees took, I think it was like miles for them. 57 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: They were coming from the Carolinas and Georgia by way 58 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: of Middle Tennessee. I think. But the choctawer we're coming 59 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: from Mississippi and Alabama. It may have been a little shorter, 60 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: but regardless, the Choctaw were forced to march Um with 61 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: very little supplies, with very little care taken to prevent 62 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: them from dying, Um for several hundred, if not a 63 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: thousand miles out of their homelands to this new Indian 64 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: terror tory, and a lot of them did die on 65 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: the way. Yeah, And I get the feeling that the 66 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: you know, the ones dying were like the attitude as well, 67 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: that's just fewer people we have to worry about. That 68 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: is very astute. I think that that is kind of 69 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: the impression that it was kind of like you're you're lucky, 70 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: we're letting any of you move anyway and not just 71 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: exterminating all of you. Right, and again, like I pointed 72 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: out in the last episode, um, there was I think 73 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: in this other attitude that like, well, I mean, you're 74 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: you're American Indians. You can just it doesn't matter where 75 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: you're from. You can get along out there, Like it 76 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: doesn't matter that you're coming from the lush, green uh 77 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: southeastern what would become United States and moving out to 78 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: the Great Plains, which you know nothing about you don't 79 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: know how to succeed their farm there. Necessarily, they probably 80 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: could have figured it out because they had done so 81 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: all across North America for you know, eons, but um, 82 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: it was they weren't set up for success in any 83 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: way being relocated. So Choctaw died along the way out 84 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: of twenty thousand died in three waves of migration, and 85 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: the first group to arrive in Oklahoma found some reporters 86 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: waiting there and um, there too already, Yeah, there were 87 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: settlers and when the I'm sure when the eastern tribes 88 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: got there, they were like white people, know you promised, Um, 89 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: But when the when the first group, the first of 90 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: the three Choctall waves, and from what I understand, they 91 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: were the first ones to move under the Indian Removal Act. 92 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: But when they got there, there were some reporters there 93 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: that said, you know, how, how was it basically one 94 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: scale of one to ten. And one of the Choctaw 95 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: chiefs who who it was exactly was lost to history 96 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: was either Chief Nitta Catchy or Chief John Harkins, and 97 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: one who described it as a trail of tears and death. 98 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: And that's where the Trail of Cheers ultimately got it's 99 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: its name from was an an unknown Choctaw chief who 100 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: were the was among the first to arrive in Oklahoma. Yeah, 101 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: and you'll hear um a lot of names in this 102 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: part two, like Chief John Harkins, and you're like, wait 103 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: a minute, that doesn't sound like a very American Indian name. 104 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: And these are just great examples of how unculturated some 105 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: of these factions of tribes had become like they were 106 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: speaking English, they were had English names, and um still 107 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: being removed. Yeah and again traded extensively white people. A 108 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: lot of them were Christian Um, some of them fought 109 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: alongside the federal government, and yes, they were still being removed, 110 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: all right, So the Trail of Tears was kind of 111 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: coined there, although it wouldn't like you said earlier in 112 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: the first episode that the the the Cherokee Trail of 113 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: Tears is sort of what most people think about is 114 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: the official Trail of tears. But regardless, this reporter got this, 115 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: blasted it out, and the whole world sort of is 116 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: now privy to these stories of this atrocity going on. 117 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: So you might think, well, they probably just tried this 118 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: once then and got so much blowback that they said Yeah, 119 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: this is does not look good for us. Um, so 120 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: we should kind of stop it. Yeah that's not how 121 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: it went. No, not how it went at all. No, 122 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: the the whole process ground on. I think there was 123 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: kind of a probably a sense among the pro removal 124 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: factions in Washington saying like just died out of its 125 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: way less than we thought it was gonna be, you know, 126 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: an acceptable amount of casualties. Basically, so um and um. 127 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: With with the white Americans as well, the idea was 128 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: ultimately Indians are gonna be free from encroachment by whites 129 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: out there in Indian territory. The War Department is tasked 130 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: with making sure that happens. The War Department did not 131 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,119 Speaker 1: do that, and in fact, when they got out west, 132 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: they found the same type of harassment and encroachment that 133 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: that they experienced east of the Mississippi as well. Well, 134 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: maybe worse too, because not only were white settlers west 135 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: of the Mississippi encroaching, they, like we talked about in 136 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: episode one, there were already plains Indians. They were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, 137 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: whoa who who are these people? You know, I know 138 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: they look like us, but we're different, you know. And 139 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: the White settlers, like what are you talking about, Like, 140 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: we're encroaching on your land too, So it was it 141 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: was not friendly in any way, you know, this arrival. Plus, 142 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: also after the War of eighteen twelve and um the 143 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: Seminole Wars, the US didn't have any European powers on 144 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: the continent any longer, which meant two things. One, the 145 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: Indians weren't a useful buffer between the US and say 146 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: the British, they didn't need. They weren't needed in that 147 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: respect any longer, which put them in a very shaky position. 148 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: And then secondly, there was no European power that the 149 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: Indians could ally themselves with to check a Erican aggression 150 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: against they had done with both Britain and Spain. So 151 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: after that and during this Indian removal process, part of 152 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: the reason why it was so rough and brutal was 153 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: because there was no reason outside of anything moral, to 154 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: check American aggression in this process. Yeah, so things got worse. 155 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: A bad situation got worse. Right here in Georgia again 156 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: with the Cherokee Nation, they held these lotteries between eighteen 157 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,479 Speaker 1: o five and eighteen thirty two. They had seven lotteries 158 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: basically where you could Uh, a white male could, if 159 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: you're over eighteen years old, could buy a lottery ticket 160 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: for four bucks about a hundred dollars today, and that 161 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: would give you a chance if you were picked to 162 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: buy a hundred and sixty acre tract of land that 163 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: was not theirs, right, That kind of says it all. Yeah, 164 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: And those those a lot of those parcels still exist. 165 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: You can trace the the land parcels back to the 166 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: original lot today. We call them subdivisions. Yeah, you know, yeah, 167 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: he said about three quarters of these parcels in Georgia 168 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: you can still trace backs. That's amazing. So the Chickasaws 169 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: were up next, Chuck. They were sick of being harassed 170 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: and um by white settlers and said, we're out of here. 171 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: We'll we'll we'll take the government up on its offer. 172 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: Here are all of our lands east of the Mississippi. 173 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: We'll take some land west of the Mississippi. And the 174 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: government said, great, here's a treaty, let's sign it. Uh, 175 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: slape each other on the back, maybe have a cigar, 176 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: and that's that. And the Choctawk got or the Chickasaw 177 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: got out to Indian Territory and found they didn't have 178 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: any land out there. Yeah, they had to negotiate with 179 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: the Choctaw who'd gotten out there a year or two earlier, 180 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: to buy some of their land. Talk about a raw deal, Well, 181 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: it is a raw deal. And it's interesting that some 182 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: of the um I mean, I don't think word was 183 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: getting back, but you could see a little bit of 184 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: the wisdom of well, hey, the writings on the wall, 185 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: So at least we can get out there early and 186 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: claim some land of our own. And that's what happened. 187 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: You know, the Choctaw had claimed this land, and then 188 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: the Chickasaw had to come out there and deal with them. 189 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: Well I think I think no, I think they they 190 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: had been given actual territory by the federal government, but 191 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: they they it didn't pan out. They hadn't actually gotten 192 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: that land, right, I mean, it wasn't, like you said, 193 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: the War Department just sort of wash their hands of it. 194 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: All right. So then you also have the Seminole as well, Right, 195 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: the Seminal took a different tax. They they were definitely 196 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: the ones that were the biggest thorn in the side 197 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: of the Indian removal process. Yeah. Sure, So you remember 198 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: back in I think eighteen seventeen, eighteen eighteen, Andrew Jackson 199 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: fought the First Seminole War. He did not win the 200 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: first Seminole War. The Seminoles were still there, and although 201 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: he did get a lot of land from the Spanish 202 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: in Florida, the Seminoles ultimately came out on top. The 203 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: Second Seminole War took play when the UM when the Seminoles, 204 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: a very small faction that were prepared to leave, went 205 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: against the wishes of the tribe in general, and negotiated 206 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: secretly with the federal government to see the land and 207 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: the seminal. The rest of the Seminole tried said no, 208 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: they didn't represent us, we're not leaving in. The federal 209 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: government said, oh yeah, well we're gonna come down and invade. 210 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: And the Second Seminole War UM went from eighteen thirty 211 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: five to eighteen forty two. Yeah, man, seven years, that's tough. Yeah. 212 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: Thousands and thousands of people died. It was a war, 213 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: straight up war between the Seminoles and the federal government. 214 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: And again the Seminoles won. Yeah. You said here that 215 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: the UM in today's dollars, the government spent about two 216 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: billion dollars fighting the war. About a billion billion dollars. Okay, yeah, 217 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: sorry about that. Um So, that's number two. The Third 218 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: Seminal War was from eighteen fifty five to eighteen fifty eight, 219 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: and that was the last attempt of the US to 220 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: say please get out of here all, not please, but 221 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: get the heck out of here. And that failed. And 222 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: so eventually the Seminole got paid pretty good money the 223 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: holdouts there for their land. So you know, I mean, 224 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: if there's a success story and all of this the Seminoles, 225 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: but yeah, it it also resulted in the deaths of 226 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people. Yeah. Uh So this next part 227 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: is sort of sets up to play out over kind 228 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: of the remaining years of the Trail of Tears. And 229 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: there are important names in here that, um you should 230 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: take note of, So get out your pad and pen exactly, 231 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: don't literally take a note, especially if you're driving. Um So, 232 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: the Cherokee they they sort of did a similar thing 233 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: that the Seminoles did, when a small group of people 234 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: make this treaty that the rest of the tribe doesn't 235 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: necessarily agree with. And this time it was called the 236 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: Treaty of New Ecatoa. I thought it was Atkatoa at 237 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: first two but then I stopped and realized, I think 238 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: it's etoa Eta. I think, so all right, we'll go 239 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: with Echtowa. I like that better anyway. Uh So, they 240 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: were about twenty Cherokee leaders that um and the names 241 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: they were headed at this point at Chief John Ridge, 242 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: his brother Major Ridge. Uh stand, how do you pronounced 243 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: that last name? I think W A t I E. 244 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: And alias Buddha no um. And again a lot of 245 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: these names are very Anglo because they had assimilated at 246 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: this point, and Glow or French. Well, yeah, some of 247 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: them were Budinos. I think definitely French. Um. So they 248 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: were about twenty of them and all though, and those 249 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: were the most notable, and they became known as the 250 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: Treaty Party. They were the ones that met with federal 251 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: agents negotiated this treaty where they would give up this 252 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: land in exchange for you know, kind of the same 253 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: old story, the cycle that happens again and again and again. 254 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: So imagine if you were a Cherokee and you were like, 255 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: we're not leaving, We're staying. We're gonna fight this in 256 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: the courts. We're gonna, you know, take our guns to 257 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: him if we have to. We're not leaving our land. 258 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: And you find out that twenty twenty Cherokee leaders went 259 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: secretly behind the back of the rest of the Cherokee Nation, 260 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: the other eighteen thousand members of the did the Eastern 261 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: Tribe and secretly negotiated away that land that you had 262 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: just vowed to protect and never leave. There's a lot 263 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: of anger, yes. So the ones that decided that they 264 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: were going to stay were led by Chief John Ross. 265 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: He was a very powerful chief um in the East 266 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: for decades. He had been negotiating to that point fairly 267 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: successfully with the federal government, saying, okay, if you're going 268 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: to if you're gonna take this land, we're gonna sell 269 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: it to you, and you're gonna pay through the nose 270 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: for it. Even though they still gave him a pretty 271 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: fair price, like four dollars and something per acre when 272 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: the going rate was about fifteen. But this was this 273 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: was much more money twenty million dollars I think in 274 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: in eighteen thirties dollars than um then the government was 275 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: prepared to spend, which was zero. It was no, you 276 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: give us the land and you you can move out 277 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: west instead. So they were negotiating a treaty or John 278 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: John Ross was with the blessing of the Cherokee Council 279 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: and the Cherokee people as a whole. And one of 280 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: the other um parts of that that negotiation was that anyone, 281 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: any Cherokee would be recognized as a full U. S. Citizen. Yeah, 282 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: it sounds like he had like a couple of different 283 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: versions of the offer. One as you can have all 284 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: this land for twenty million bucks, or you can have 285 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: some of it for four million bucks, let us keep 286 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: some and whoever wants to stay can become full citizens 287 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: with all the rights afforded to a full citizen. So 288 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: he was actually in the middle making what was, you know, 289 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: not a bad deal for his people, know, and again 290 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: and he had the full the blessing of the Cherokee 291 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: Council to do this. Yeah, And did he not know 292 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: at all that the Treaty Party was doing this from 293 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: what I understand, No, it was a secret, secret negotiation 294 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: and they were happening concurrently. So the the John Ross 295 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: faction was negotiating for about four bucks an acre, the 296 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: the Treaty Party negotiated for about a dollar five and acre, 297 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: or about five percent of the value of the land. 298 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: And they the government said we'll go with you. Guys. 299 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: They signed the treaty. Uh. The Cherokee when they found 300 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: out about it, um, basically signed a petition saying that's 301 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: an illegal treaty. We don't we don't condone that. They 302 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: got something like seventeen thousand signatures. They're only eighteen thousand 303 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: Cherokees in the East. And the Senate still ratified it. Yeah, 304 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: they said, that's just very Let's see all those names, 305 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: it's very impressive. Uh, let me rip that into shoot 306 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: two pieces, and we're gonna ratify this. Uh, and it 307 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: becomes a federal statute. And um, this kind of is 308 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: what really set everything in motion for the final removal 309 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: of the Cherokee. Yeah, you Cherokee now have three years 310 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: to vacate your land. And uh, if you don't, well 311 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: let's just say you should vacate your land within three years. 312 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: Is what the federal government said. But they still, for 313 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: the most part, didn't leave. And we'll take a break 314 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: here and we'll talk about that process after this. All right, 315 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: So we're back. Um, the treaty had been signed in 316 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: against the will of the Cherokee people. They had three 317 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: years to get I was gonna say, get out of Dodge, 318 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: But man, why do I keep saying that? Get out 319 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: of Cherokee? And then I was about to say they 320 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: had three years to play ball, but they'd be like, 321 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 1: what does playball mean? Well, it hadn't been invinited yet either, 322 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: Get with the chuck. Three years later, only two thousand 323 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: of the eighteen thousand had migrated west. And so President 324 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: Martin van Buren, who's as we saw earlier, kind of 325 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: just continue to carry out Jackson's policies. Yeah. Jackson was 326 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: a two term president, and the Van Buren presidency just 327 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: made it twelve basically, yeah, twelve years. Yeah. Uh. He said, 328 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: all right, well, here's what we're gonna do, because Jackson 329 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: is telling me I have to do this. We're gonna 330 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: send in federal troops and you hold outs in Georgia 331 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: and the Carolina's um. We have a general named Winfield Scott. 332 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: He's gonna bring about seven thousand men in there, and 333 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: he's going to ask you nicely to leave, and that 334 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: he doesn't want bloodshed all while tapping on his side, 335 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: are on us hip exactly, which is basically what happened. Yeah, 336 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: he had a he had a quote here you want 337 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: to read that he read a statement he said, the 338 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: blood of the white man or the blood of the 339 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: red man, may be spilt, and if spilt, however accidentally, 340 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: it may be impossible for the discreet and humane among 341 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: you or among us, to prevent a general war and carnage. 342 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: Think of this, my Cherokee brethren. I am an old 343 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: warrior and have been present at many a scene of slaughter. 344 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: But spare me. I beseech you the horror of witnessing 345 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: the destruction of the Cherokees. In other words, don't make 346 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: me kill all of you. And let's think about what 347 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 1: we will. We have seven thousand men behind me. Yeah, 348 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: and think about where this came from. Like this was 349 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: we want your land. You have to leave. That's that. 350 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: And now it's gotten to the point where we're going 351 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: to kill you if you don't leave. And when they 352 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: came and forced them to leave finally, uh and eighteen 353 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: thirty eight, at gunpoint, they said you have to leave now. 354 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: And and it was not gather your stuff and leave, 355 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: it was stop what you're doing and leave. Most of 356 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 1: the people um were not able to get their supplies together. 357 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,959 Speaker 1: Some were able to grab blankets, A lot of them 358 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: were barefoot um and they were herded out of their houses. Yeah, 359 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: you said there was one case where there were these uh, 360 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 1: there was a small child who had died. Uh at 361 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: the night that they were preparing for burial, and they 362 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: turn guns on them and said no, no no, no, you 363 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: can't even do that. Get out, And they had to 364 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: leave this body of a child behind by itself. Plus 365 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,959 Speaker 1: they also had to suffer the um in dignity of 366 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: watching white settlers loot their houses as they were being 367 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: marched away. Oh yeah, the people that have been encroaching 368 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: all these years had free reign at this point. It 369 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 1: was open season. So the the the federal government had 370 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: built thirty one posts around the Caroline and is in Georgia, 371 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 1: which were basically like temporary holding stations before the forced 372 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,719 Speaker 1: migration began. And like a third of the people who 373 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: died during this um removal process among the Cherokee died 374 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: in these posts. They died of exposure, they died of hunger. 375 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: There's like disease ripping through these things. It was just 376 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: a terrible situation even just to start. Yeah, and you know, 377 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: as far as what's going on today, regardless of how 378 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: you feel about deportation, just look into deportation facilities. Are 379 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: they pretty bad? I mean it wasn't you know, people 380 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: weren't dying of aren't dying of cholera. But just go 381 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: look it up. Make your own judgment. I'll say that, Okay, 382 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: I don't want to get too political here. Um, all right, 383 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: So there are a couple of routes here that the 384 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 1: Cherokee took to get to Oklahoma. Basically, you could go 385 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,959 Speaker 1: on a boat or you can walk. Right, Maybe if 386 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: you're old and frail, you might be in a wagon, 387 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: but basically you're gonna walk. Yeah. The draft animals were 388 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: for carrying supplies. The wagons were just for the elderly 389 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: and maybe like little little little kids. Um, but yeah, 390 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: you're gonna have to walk in Again. A lot of 391 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 1: these people were removed from their homes with and not 392 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: giving even enough time to get their shoes. So they 393 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: were walking barefoot twelve miles. Yeah, and I think about 394 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: fifteen thousand by foot in about three thousand. We're fortunate enough, 395 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: I guess you could say, to go by steamship. Yeah. 396 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: And we should say also that the experience of this 397 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: is not it's not the same for everybody. Right, there 398 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: were plenty of very wealthy Cherokees who who arranged for 399 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: their own passage west, including one guy, rich Joe Van. 400 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: He was I don't know where he made his money, 401 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: but he was a wealthy Cherokee who um traveled privately 402 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: on his own steamship. Yeah. I mean, if he owned 403 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: a steamship, he's doing pretty well. Sure. Uh. And again 404 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: you point out in the article this is it's just 405 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: another reminder of how uncultured some of these Native Americans 406 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: have become at this point. And they were still like, now, man, 407 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: you're ostensibly living like a wealthy white person, but you're 408 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: still Indians. To get out right them again, the overlooked 409 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: group in this too seems to be the African American slaves. Um. Again, 410 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: some Cherokee's owned slaves, and the slaves were made to 411 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: to go on the Trail of Tears with them as well. Yeah, 412 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: or forced to. Um, you know. The ones who didn't 413 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: have to go west were forced to relocate from all 414 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: over the colonies, largely down south to support the cotton industry. 415 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: That was a big deal. Um. So this land that 416 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: opened up immediately became like cotton land, and it created 417 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: the biggest agricultural economy in the world. The American South 418 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: had the biggest, largest, most robust agricultural economy in the 419 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: entire world during this period as a result of this 420 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: land opening up. But part of that required this slave 421 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: labor and so um, the slave trade increased dramatically during 422 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: this period as well. So the the forced removal of 423 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: Native Americans led to a forced diaspora of African Americans 424 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: into that land that had just been vacated where they 425 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: were forced to work, which is, Yeah, it's an overlooked 426 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: part of history for sure. I mean, we all understand, 427 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: we know about slavery, and we know that it happened, 428 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 1: and that was in the South or whatever. But this 429 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: this period was where it just steps up exponentially as 430 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: a direct result of the forced removal. Yeah, I mean, 431 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: like hundreds of thousands of acres of land all of 432 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: a sudden that needed tending to um, millions of acres, 433 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: millions of millions of acres, Yeah, which is a lot 434 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: of hundreds of thousands. Be like does of acres about 435 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: forty million dozen? Uh So back to the the westward 436 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: trail of tears Um. This first migration was in the 437 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: summer of eight and I don't know if anyone out 438 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: there has ever walked from Georgia to Oklahoma at all. 439 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: I wonder if that's like a thing hike the Trail 440 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: of tears. Uh jeez, I don't know. I bet somebody does, 441 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: probably like in an awareness campaign or something. I could 442 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: see that. Um, so that it was in the summer heat. 443 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 1: It's it's not forgiving in any way. UM. A lot 444 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: of people died on that first wave. And I don't 445 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: think we mentioned that. Chief John Ross, he was the 446 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: last of the Cherokee of his group to to leave, 447 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,239 Speaker 1: to pick up and leave. Yeah, the federal government was 448 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: doing such a disastrously bad job of overseeing this migration 449 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: that John Ross went to General Scott and said, please, 450 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: if we're going to migrate, let me oversee the remaining 451 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: migrations because you guys are botching this. And Scott actually said, okay, fine, 452 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: you can oversee the migrations. Despite Andrew Jackson angrily writing like, no, 453 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 1: there's a terrible idea, Do not do that. You can't 454 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: let the Indians oversee their own forced migration, you dummy, 455 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 1: Scott still did it. He stood up to the political pressure. Um. 456 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: And so the Trail of Tears historically, what you think 457 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: of the official trail of tears started at the Rattlesnake 458 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: in Rattlesnake Springs, Tennessee, which is where he said, Is 459 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: that middle Tennessee. I think it's middle like around Memphis. 460 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 1: Maybe is in Memphis in the center, Memphis, West Nashville. 461 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: Then I think it's around Nashville. Okay, Tennessee is uh 462 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, my family's from Tennessee and your chop taw 463 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: Well Mississippi, uh, before Tennessee, but mainly from West Tennessee, 464 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: which has got probably more in common with Arkansas than 465 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: like Nashville. You're like, maybe you've heard of my cousin. 466 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: He was falsely accused of killing some boys back in 467 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: the eighties. Oh, the Memphis Three. No, not a cousin, 468 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: but they were in Arkansas, West Memphis, Arkansas. It's confusing. Um, 469 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: it's not that confused. Well, I mean West Memphis, Arkansas. 470 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: You hear Memphis, you generally think of Tennessee. That's the 471 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: east Memphis. We should do a show in Elvis, are we? Well, 472 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: we do one on grace Land. Yeah. And I think 473 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: that's when I pointed out to that God Bless my 474 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: dear departed grandmother, but she was of that camp like, oh, Elvis, 475 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: he's poor thing. He just his doctors killed him. And 476 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: I was like grandmother. He was a big fat junkie, 477 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: died on the toilet. Made some great music though. Um. 478 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: All right, So Elvis Aside Rattlesnake Springs, Tennessee is where 479 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: the Trail of Tears, officially the route kind of began. Um. 480 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: And it went through And this is something that I 481 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: never considered it went or you know it. Let's take 482 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: a break. That's a good little teaser there, and we'll 483 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: talk about, um, the impact it had on these towns 484 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: that it went through. All right. I teased that I 485 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: had never realized this. But um, the old story you 486 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: heard about white people lining up in their towns to 487 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: watch the Native Americans passed through and shed a tear 488 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: for them, which is bunk. Or maybe one person did, 489 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: probably yeah, Um, but it had a big like you 490 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: can't move eighteen thousand people, and that was just the 491 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: Cherokee without um. You know, there's a big economic boon 492 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: that can happen when you go through a town of 493 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: that many with that many people. And they went through many, many, 494 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: many towns. The government spent two and a half two 495 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: point one five billion dollars in two thousand fifteen money, um, 496 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: moving the Cherokee and all of that was for things 497 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: like supplies and stuff like that. So the entire um, 498 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: I think Arkansas, I think it was Arkansas. Their entire 499 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: agricultural economy shifted from the cotton boom that was going 500 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: on in the rest of the South to growing corn 501 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: strictly to supply the federal government for this migration. Yeah. 502 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: The Trail of Tears itself had its own economy, right, 503 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: it's own moving portable economy. Yeah. A lot of cottage 504 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: industries grew up where um, you know, peep townspeople would 505 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: get into like porting, ferrying, helping carry supplies, or moving 506 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: people across bodies of water. Um. Some were exploitive, not surprisingly, 507 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: Like there were people who said, well, this is my land, 508 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: and I'm going to charge each of you a fee 509 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: for crossing over it, and then an exit fee when 510 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: you get to the other side kind of stuff, you know. Yeah, 511 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: and some of the town's would, I guess, despite the 512 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: fact that it would could have been a bit of 513 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: a temporary economic boom, refused to even let it happen, 514 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: Like you can't have passage through my town, even though 515 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: it's easier on you. You got to go around this 516 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: entire town. Yea cape gerro Doe. UM did that in Missouri. 517 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: They said, it's way easier to cross the Mississippi through town, 518 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: but there's another crossing two miles up and it's treacherous, 519 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: but you've got to take that one. So some of 520 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: this was documented by UM white soldiers who were overseeing. 521 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: I guess from the War Department. Um, should we read 522 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: a couple of these accounts? Well, yeah, I think we should. 523 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: This one in particulars from John G. Burnett, who in 524 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety, as he was an old man dying, he 525 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: was interviewed by a newspaper for his experiences because he 526 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: had been a soldier along the trailer tears with the Cherokee. 527 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: All right, I'll read one of these, Um. I saw 528 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: the helpless Cherokees arrested and dragged from their homes and 529 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: driven at the bayonet point into the stockades, and in 530 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: the chill of a drizzling rain on an October morning, 531 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: I saw them loaded like cattle or sheep in the 532 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: six hundred and forty five wagons and started toward the west. 533 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: One can never forget the sadness and solemnity of that morning. 534 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: Chief John Ross led him prayer, and when the bugle 535 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: sounded in the wagons started rolling. Many of the children 536 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: rose to their feet and waved their little hands goodbye 537 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: to their mountain homes, knowing they were leaving them forever. 538 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: Many of these helpless people did not have blankets, and 539 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: many of them have been driven from their home barefooted. 540 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: On the morning of November seventeenth, we've encountered a terrific 541 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: sleet and snowstorm with freezing temperatures. And from that day 542 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: until we reached the end of the Fateful journey on 543 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: March eighteen thirty nine, the sufferings of the Cherokees were awful. 544 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: The trail of the exiles was a trail of death. 545 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: They had to sleep in the wagons and on the 546 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: ground without fire, and I have known as many as 547 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: twenty two of them to die in one night of 548 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: pneumonia due to ill treatment, cold and exposure. Among this 549 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: number was the beautiful Christian wife of Chief John Ross. 550 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: This noble hearted woman died of martyr to childhood, giving 551 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: her only blanket for the protection of a sick child. 552 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: She rode thinly clad the blinding sleet and snowstorm, developed pneumonia, 553 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: and died in the still hours of a blique winter 554 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: night with her head resting on Lieutenant Gregg's saddle blanket. 555 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: So clearly some of the soldiers were kind of haunted 556 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: with the task that they were given. Yeah, because this guy, 557 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: John Brunette, was on the trail in eighteen thirty eight, 558 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: this is eighteen ninety. He's still giving this impassioned like 559 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: account of it, you know. Man, Um, there was another 560 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: witness who's who estimated that the Cherokee buried fourteen or 561 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: fifteen of a people at every stopping place. And this 562 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: was along this mile trail, which they did about ten 563 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: miles a day by foot. And as a result, about 564 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: four thousand of the seven thousand, seventeen thousand Cherokee who 565 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: uh moved during this migration died along the way. Yeah. 566 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: And again, um, just like the cycle all Uh. When 567 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: they got there, they were not met with open arms. 568 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 1: Remember the old settlers that we talked about from the 569 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,280 Speaker 1: very beginning, the very first ones to go out west. Uh, 570 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: they did not take kindly to their arrival. No, because 571 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: remember they formed basically a different tribe of Cherokee out there. Yeah, 572 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: like they were their own tribe that you know, I said, 573 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 1: you know what, all bets are off is our land. 574 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: So when they showed up, the Eastern Cherokees were like, yeah, 575 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: but there's a lot more of us than there are 576 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 1: of you guys. So we're we're in charge now. Yeah. 577 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: And I think one of the more interesting things, you know, 578 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: we mentioned when I said to take note with that 579 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: new Achitoah Treaty with those twenty um, what was it 580 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: twenty or so twenty leaders leaders that that signed this 581 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: treaty against the will of John Ross. Those I mean 582 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: that stuff was like in stone. Now, this faction that 583 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: was created with that carried through for decades and decades 584 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: and and and that same line carried over yeah out 585 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: west as well. Right, So allegiances formed between the treaty 586 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 1: party supporters and the John Ross supporters, and ultimately John 587 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: Ross was able to consolidate power out there, and he 588 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: became the chief of all of the Cherokees now that 589 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: they were all out west, the the combined tribe. Yeah. 590 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: And once once he consolidated power, he gave it a 591 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 1: day or two and then he said, okay, it's time 592 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: to have the treaty party members killed. Yeah. He he 593 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: had vengeance on his mind for sure, So he dispatched. Uh. 594 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: And one night on June nine, he dispatched some assassins. Um. 595 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: They went and found the principal signers. We mentioned Major Ridge, 596 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: his brother John Ridge, and Elias Budino. They all died 597 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: that night, but stand Watti interestingly escaped. And I don't 598 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: think we said you know, we said it. Um. That 599 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: faction and that divide between the nation was going on 600 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 1: for decades. It lasted into the Civil War, and the 601 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: new Etchetowa supporters supported the South, the others opposed to 602 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: the North. So the divide between the Union and the 603 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: Confederacy also fell along that new etchetoa Treaty party and 604 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: John Ross supporters line still and they fought each other 605 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:50,320 Speaker 1: as Confederate and Union soldiers. Yeah. And actually stand Watty 606 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: became a general in the Confederacy. Yes, he survived the 607 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,280 Speaker 1: assassination attempt. Uh. He got out because he was warned 608 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: by the Reverend Samuel H. Worcester maybe Worcestershire. Uh. And 609 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: he was I think we mentioned him earlier. He was 610 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: a missionary who originally filed that suit against Georgia on 611 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,720 Speaker 1: behalf of the Cherokee that went to the Supreme Court, 612 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: and um he was he warned Watty. Watty got out, 613 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 1: went on to fight in the Civil War, and he 614 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: was the last general to surrender in the Confederacy, the 615 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,280 Speaker 1: last one, not the last Cherokee general, the last general 616 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,879 Speaker 1: of the Confederacy to surrender. So he very interesting story there. 617 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: So overall, Chuck, between eighteen thirty and eighteen fifty, I 618 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: said it was a decade earlier. I think the eighteen 619 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: thirties were the worst of it. But between those those 620 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: twenty years, the US government moved more than one hundred 621 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: thousand Native Americans east of the Mississippi to the west 622 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: of the Mississippi. And not just the five civilized tribes, 623 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: not just the southeastern or Eastern churches, northern tribes, like 624 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 1: basically everyone who was living east of the Mississippi between 625 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 1: Canada in the Gulf of Mexico was pushed away across 626 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: the Mississippi. And it was the first big massive movement 627 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: of of Native Americans to what would be basically a 628 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: sweeping motion by the by America, by the federal government 629 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 1: from one edge of the coast to the other, trying 630 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: to sweep the continent clean of Native Americans. And at 631 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: first it was here, you go to this other area 632 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: where Native Americans are, and you can deal with it. 633 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: And then eventually they started running more out of land 634 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: more and more, and extermination became more of a policy 635 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: than than removal. Yeah, because remember we had said that 636 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson said, well, the Mississippi River is clearly going 637 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: to be our western border. Um. They went on to 638 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: later say, remember when we said that, we would kind 639 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: of like all the land and we're gonna take it. 640 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: And in response, finally it was two thousand nine, I 641 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: think before any official oology was proffered for um the 642 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: Trail of Tears, and it wasn't just the Trail of tears. 643 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: It covered everything, anything that had ever been done to 644 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: Native Americans by the federal government was summed up with 645 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 1: an apology for quote the many instances of violence, maltreatment, 646 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 1: and neglect inflicted on Native people's by citizens of the 647 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: United States. Back to business. Yeah, and that was drafted 648 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,760 Speaker 1: UM a few years part of that by Kansas Senator 649 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: Sam brown Back and UM signed into law by President 650 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: Barack Obama and then I guess another. The closest thing 651 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 1: to an apology that Georgia ever gave was back in 652 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: nineteen six Uh, Georgia adopted the Cherokee rose as the 653 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 1: official state flower, and according to Cherokee legend, the flower 654 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: grew from the tears of the mothers who cried for 655 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: their children along the way, and the flowers still grows 656 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,280 Speaker 1: along that official trail of tears today, all the way 657 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: into eastern Oklahoma. Yeah, and that trail is protected um 658 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: federally for now at least. So that's trailer tears man, 659 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: tough one, tough too. Yes. Uh. If you want to 660 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 1: know more about the trailer tears, just type those words 661 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,959 Speaker 1: into your favorite search engine and start learning. And since 662 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: I said start learning, it's time for listener mail. Uh. 663 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,319 Speaker 1: This is a correction about the Holy Roman Empire. Hey, guys, 664 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,399 Speaker 1: I know you'd like to get things right even after 665 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:35,839 Speaker 1: the facts, so I thought i'd help you out a bit. 666 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,479 Speaker 1: Listening to the Death Tax episode picked up on something 667 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: you said in this and at least one of the 668 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: recent episode when you mentioned the Holy Roman Empire. It's 669 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: pretty clearly referring to Rome during the early part of 670 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,360 Speaker 1: the first millennium. Ce, but it's actually an incorrect moniker 671 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 1: for that state. The Holy Roman Empire is it's referred 672 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: to in history, was a collection of Central European traditionally 673 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: Germanic U states UH, briefly some of Italy early on, 674 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: under a loose rule by the Holy Roman Emperor, not 675 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: the Pope who was the ruling papals who was ruling 676 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 1: the papal states when the Holy Roman Empire was in 677 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: its early existence. Origins of the Holy Roman Empire began 678 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 1: in the ninth ninth century, followed by the division of 679 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: Charlemagne's Frankish kingdom into the three partitions given to each 680 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: of his three sons, the easternmost, eventually becoming the Holy 681 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 1: Roman Empire UH. Without getting into too much specific history, 682 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: I'll tell you that it's roughly one thousand year run 683 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 1: is filled with fascinating events and political structure unique in 684 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,320 Speaker 1: world history. Catholic Reformation and the Thirty Years War impacted 685 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: and influenced heavily the political structure of the Holy Roman 686 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:49,800 Speaker 1: Empire and his member states for one, and Chris ort Loff, buddy, 687 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: you are a student of history. Clearly very well done, 688 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: and thank you for that nice name dropping of Charlemagne 689 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 1: to Chris if you want to school it's like Chris, 690 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:03,799 Speaker 1: did we love that kind of thing, especially if it's 691 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 1: nice and pleasant. Uh. You can tweet to us. I'm 692 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: at josh um Clark and at s Y s K podcast, 693 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: Chuck's at Charles W. Chuck Bryant on Facebook and its 694 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know on Facebook right. You can send 695 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: us both an email the Stuff podcast at how stuff 696 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,719 Speaker 1: Works dot com and as always, joined us at our 697 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: home on the web, Stuff you Should Know dot com. 698 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics. Is 699 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:43,799 Speaker 1: it how stuff Works dot com