1 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: What is the first thing you think of When I 2 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: say George magazine. 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 2: I know exactly what it is, right, So it was JFK. 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 2: Junior's magazine, which it came out the year that I 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: graduated from high school. 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 3: The Kennedys were super. 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 2: Important in my family, and I knew all about his 8 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 2: mom at that point. To me, she was not JFK's wife, 9 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: she was a famous editor in New York. Just take 10 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 2: it as thoughts of an eighteen year old, But for me, 11 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 2: it was the first thing I read at the time. 12 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 2: I read The New Yorker, but really only the literary 13 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 2: stuff and the fiction and the poetry. And I read 14 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 2: Vanity Fair but really only the culture part. So this 15 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 2: was to me, was like the first thing. It was 16 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 2: not hard politics, but definitely seemed like a Washington, DC thing, 17 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: which was weird to me because to me all media 18 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,639 Speaker 2: was New York based. I don't know how long it lasted, 19 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: but I definitely was like the second subscriber. It was 20 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: like me and my mom subscribe to it. 21 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 4: I'm George Saveres, I'm Lyra Smith, and this is United 22 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 4: States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with 23 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 4: the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect 24 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,919 Speaker 4: of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about 25 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 4: George Magazine. Here's ABC on the launch. 26 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 5: So who was that guy getting so much attention from 27 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 5: the media this morning by George? That was John as 28 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 5: in John F. Kennedy Junior. And to sort this out 29 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 5: just a little bit further, George is the name of 30 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 5: a magazine he started. Bertha Combs as details. 31 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 3: The premiere issue of George looks Red Hot, with supermodel 32 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 3: Cindy Crawford on the cover and a lot of big 33 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 3: name advertisers and saw it. 34 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety five, JFK Junior and PR executive Michael 35 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: Berman started a new magazine focused on political news and culture. 36 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: The cover of the first issue featured supermodel Cindy Crawford 37 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: dressed as George Washington. Inside you could find a conversation 38 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: between JFK Junior and George Wallace, a profile of Newt Gingrich, 39 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: and a short piece where Cindy Crawford and Isaac Msrahi 40 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: judged the outfits of politicians. 41 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 4: Although magazines like Esquire and Vanity Fair covered politics and 42 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 4: pop culture, George Magazine wanted to put politics and politicians 43 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 4: front and center. In JFK. Junior's view, politics was already 44 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 4: moving towards entertainment during the Clinton era, with politicians clamoring 45 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 4: for the spotlight, like, for example, when Bill Clinton himself 46 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 4: played sax On Arsenio. 47 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 3: Hall, I'm glad you're here. 48 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 4: Let's get right down to things. 49 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 5: What do you like the old Elvis or the woodstamp? 50 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 4: You know, I know you're an Elvis fan. 51 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 3: I led a national cruisite for the young Elvis. 52 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 4: Really, yeah, you. 53 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 3: Know when you get old. And obviously he wasn't rock. 54 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: But nowadays, when people in media look back at George, 55 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: it's often thought of as a failure, which isn't really 56 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: accurate once you look at the whole story. 57 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 4: According to people who worked at George, Kennedy was passionately 58 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 4: involved in the day to day of running a magazine. 59 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 4: He was in the office at meetings, involved in editorial decisions, 60 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 4: and not only that, but his interviews in editor's letters 61 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 4: were read apparently by eighty to ninety percent of the 62 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 4: magazine's readers. Unfortunately, the rest of the features were a 63 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 4: bit more inconsistent. 64 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:21,519 Speaker 3: As we know. JFK. 65 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: Junior died tragically in the summer of nineteen ninety nine, 66 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: only four years after George Magazine launched. But I can't 67 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: help but feel like the magazine could have been a 68 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: huge success. If he'd had more time, it. 69 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 4: Could have at least been a moderate success for another 70 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 4: couple of years before the Internet and social media started 71 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 4: killing all magazines. But that is a conversation for another time. 72 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 4: Today we have Rolling Stone Features editor Katee's story with us. 73 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 4: She is the author of white House by the Sea, 74 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 4: about the Kennedy compound in Hyanna, Sport, and she also 75 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 4: wrote a very comprehensive article about George Magazine for Esquire, 76 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 4: detailing the history of the magazine. To quote her piece, 77 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 4: George Magazine covered politics like it was pop culture? Was 78 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 4: it folly or a glimpse of the trumpy and future? Kate, 79 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 4: thanks so much for being here today. 80 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. It's so fun to talk 81 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 3: about George. 82 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of JFK Junior being the JFK 83 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: junior that we all dream and want him to be 84 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: in a lot of the stories behind George Magazine. 85 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 4: I mean it really is almost like Sex and the 86 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 4: City characters. We were like rereading your piece for Esquire 87 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 4: from twenty nineteen. That is sort of like a you know, 88 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 4: an account of the heyday of George Magazine, and it 89 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 4: really makes you nostalgic for this idealized version of nineties 90 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 4: New York that you almost think is too romanticize and 91 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 4: doesn't actually exist. But it did, and it was in Tribeca. 92 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, And the people who worked for him, when 93 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 6: they talked about it is you could see them light 94 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 6: up and talking about this pretty brief period of all 95 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 6: of their lives. 96 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 3: But it was really special for the people who experienced it. 97 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: So you have a book out now, White House by 98 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: the Sea. It's about the Kennedy Compound. We've read your 99 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: Esquire piece on George Magazine, just wondering what first got 100 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: you interested in the Kennedys or what was your introduction 101 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: to writing about the Kennedys. 102 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 6: Yeah, so the George piece came first, and it came 103 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 6: about because I was a writer at Espart magazine at 104 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 6: the time and it was coming up on the twentieth 105 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:14,679 Speaker 6: anniversary of JFK. 106 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 3: Junior's death. 107 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 6: And a thing magazines often do is use these anniversaries 108 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 6: to go back in time and tell a story that 109 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 6: we want to tell. So we were having a conversation 110 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 6: about John and the Esquire readers were obsessed with him, 111 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 6: like whenever there was a photo they would put up 112 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 6: on Instagram. People just were so interested in him. So 113 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 6: we were trying to figure out what is a way 114 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 6: to tell his story that would be interesting to these 115 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 6: readers and what hasn't been told yet, And we were 116 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 6: talking about George Magazine and it felt like just the 117 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 6: right time to go back and revisit. 118 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:42,559 Speaker 3: That piece of his life. 119 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 6: And I had written about media a little bit so 120 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 6: that I came into it from the media side of it. 121 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 6: And it's really more of a media story than it 122 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 6: is a Kennedy story, Like I spoke to all these 123 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 6: people who were working at the magazine, the publishers and 124 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 6: everything like that. I didn't speak to any Kennedy's for 125 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 6: that piece. But that piece ended up leading to a 126 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 6: conversation that I had with a book agent about the Kennedy's, 127 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 6: And after the piece came out, she said, I've always 128 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 6: dreamed of a Kennedy compound piece, and similar to the 129 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 6: George piece. I kind of was like, well, that sounds amazing. 130 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 6: I don't know if I'm the right person for it, 131 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 6: but the more it kind of dug into it, the 132 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 6: more it felt like exactly the kind of thing I'd 133 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 6: want to tackle. So I kind of backed my way 134 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 6: into two very Kennedy stories without necessarily really being a 135 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 6: Kennedy writer, Like I'm from the South, I'm not from 136 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 6: New England. I really came to both of these projects 137 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,799 Speaker 6: with an outsider's view, which for me was really fun. 138 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 4: So one of the things that I find most interesting 139 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 4: about at Kennedy starting a media publication is that the 140 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 4: Kennedy's were such media fixtures themselves, like such tabloid fixtures, 141 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 4: and to turn the tables like that almost feels, you know, 142 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 4: sort of weirdly empowering. It's like they're seizing the means 143 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 4: of production by you know, making their own magazine rather 144 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 4: than just you know, being covered in ways they maybe 145 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 4: don't agree with or in ways that they would prefer 146 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 4: not to be. So I want you to sort of 147 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 4: paint a picture for us, like where were we in 148 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 4: terms of JFK. Junior's public persona at the time. How 149 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 4: was he seen when he decided that out of nowhere, 150 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 4: you know, he's going to go from being a lawyer 151 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 4: who famously failed the bar twice to becoming a magazine editor. 152 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, the thing that's so interesting about his life is 153 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 6: he was really born into the public eye. He was 154 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 6: born during his dad's presidency, but then, you know, the 155 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 6: time during the presidency, he was very much covered by 156 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 6: the media constantly, just constantly in the newspapers. But then 157 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 6: after his father died, there was that iconic image of 158 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 6: him saluting his father's casket as it went by, which 159 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 6: I think was really stuck. 160 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 3: In a lot of people's minds for a very long time. 161 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 6: After that, though, his mom, Jackie, really took him and 162 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 6: his sister out of the spotlight. 163 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 3: You didn't see that much of them. 164 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 6: But then after he graduated and went to Brown, there 165 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 6: was like this new kind of rush of attention on him. 166 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 6: He was named People's sexiest man alive at one point, 167 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 6: and there was suddenly kind of this new fresh interest 168 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 6: in him. When he became an adult, he went to 169 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 6: law school. He failed the bar exam twice, but then 170 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 6: briefly worked as anant district attorney in New York and 171 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 6: then was trying to figure out his next steps and 172 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 6: had this conversation with a friend of his who ran 173 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 6: a PR firm. A man named Michael Berman, and they 174 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 6: described it as they were having a conversation after Bill 175 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 6: Clinton's inauguration about the campaign and how successful that was, 176 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 6: and the conversation kind of turned to the way the 177 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 6: Clintons were kind of used the media and that campaign, 178 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 6: and there's, of course the famous image of Bill Clinton 179 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 6: playing saxophone on Arsenio Hall, and it was just kind 180 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 6: of a very different way of engaging. 181 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 3: The public dury campaign. 182 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 6: John and his friend Michael were having this conversation and 183 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 6: they say that they don't remember who said it first, 184 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 6: but one of them said, we should do a magazine 185 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 6: that kind of encapsulates these two, you know, parts of life, politics, 186 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 6: and pop culture. 187 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 3: So that's how he got to that point. 188 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 6: He had no journalism background aside from being a fixture 189 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 6: in the media for so long. One of my favorite 190 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 6: stories I reported out for this piece was that after 191 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 6: they decided to do this, he went to a seminar 192 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 6: about how to make a magazine at a New York Hilton, 193 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 6: which I think is just just such a funny image 194 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 6: of you know, rolling up to this Hilton to learn 195 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 6: how to make a magazine. 196 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 4: That's where it started, and one of my favorite parts 197 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 4: of that story is that the person running the seminar said, 198 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 4: you can basically make a magazine about anything, ex have 199 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 4: religion and politics, I know. 200 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 6: Exactly, And people continue to tell him that he heard 201 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 6: it there, and then he also kept hearing it. When 202 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 6: he was trying to find a publishing partner. He went 203 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 6: to Yon Winner, who famously founded Rolling Stone. He went 204 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 6: to Hearst and everybody was like, this doesn't You're not 205 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 6: going to make money. There were, of course politics magazines 206 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 6: at the time, those New Republic and others, they just 207 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 6: weren't big, flashy money makers. You know, publications like Vanity 208 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 6: Fair and US were covered politics, but it really wasn't 209 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 6: the heart of what they did, and there was just 210 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 6: this belief that you couldn't make money from it. And 211 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 6: he finally found a partner in David Pecker, who was 212 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 6: running Haschet Filipachi at the time, who was very eager 213 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 6: to partner with him, and that's how it got made. 214 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 3: I'm so confused. 215 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: The way it's presented a lot of times is like, well, 216 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: no one's going to advertise because they're going to be 217 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: afraid too. 218 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 3: Were there examples at. 219 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: The time or before then where just having politics as 220 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: the topic had made it so that people couldn't be profitable. 221 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 6: Well, I think it's that the advertiser's fear of what 222 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 6: kind of content they were going to like appure cross 223 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 6: from which we still have. I mean, I work in 224 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 6: magazines today. We still have those conversations. If you flip 225 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 6: back through the magazines of the nineties and you look 226 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 6: at you know, Vanity Fair for example, there are these big, 227 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 6: flashy car ads that made the publisher a ton of money. 228 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 6: And if you flip through something like a New Republic, 229 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 6: they're like academic publishing ads. Like there's just a totally 230 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 6: different level of advertisers. So it was true that it 231 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 6: was harder to get advertisers because with politics, you just 232 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 6: don't know what you're going to be across from. Obviously, 233 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 6: politics are so predictable. You know, stories about politics can 234 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 6: be incredibly controversial versus like fashion, for example, which is 235 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 6: much safer. 236 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 4: So when you think about something like Tina Brown's Vanity Fair, 237 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 4: is the difference there just that it's not openly saying 238 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 4: this is a magazine about politics and pop culture. Because 239 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 4: if I were to describe Vanity Fair, I guess maybe 240 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 4: you could call it entertainment and pop culture. But I 241 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 4: mean it's certainly covered politics. It published political writers, So 242 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 4: what was the difference. 243 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 6: I think it was really having that front and center, 244 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 6: and that was the politics, not politics as usual, I 245 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 6: think was the tagline, So just saying, this is our identity, 246 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 6: this is what we are. I spoke to Graydon Carter 247 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 6: for the piece, who was the editor in chief of 248 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 6: Vanity Fair at the time, and he was like, of 249 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 6: course we covered politics too, it just wasn't big flashing 250 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 6: lights we are a political magazine. John really wanted it 251 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 6: to be like, we are a political magazine that and 252 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 6: we are also a culture magazine and we are doing 253 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 6: both at the same level. 254 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 4: And so timeline wise, this is I mean, there's not 255 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 4: really a non turbulent time in his life ultimately. You know, 256 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 4: it's like every two years something either tragic or crazy 257 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 4: it happens, but it is launched, correct me if I'm wrong, 258 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 4: like a year after his mom dies. 259 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 6: Yeah, it was shortly after his mom died. He was 260 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 6: actually asked by Barbara Walters if his mom knew about 261 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 6: the magazine, and he was kind of vague, and he said, 262 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 6: I think I might have shown her a prototype or something, 263 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 6: and she was happy for me. But yeah, it was 264 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 6: shortly after his mom died that it launched, but he 265 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 6: would have been working on it a little bit before then. 266 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 3: It would have been during her illness. 267 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 4: So he's sort of this figure that people are both 268 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 4: rooting for in their own way because he's America's prince, 269 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 4: and then also are skeptical of because he's like this 270 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 4: kind of dumb hunk and is seen as unserious. So 271 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 4: a lot of people that they went to get support 272 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 4: and funding said no, All the major publishers said no. 273 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 4: Finally it launches. What is the reaction. 274 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,959 Speaker 6: It continued to be very skeptical. It did well. It 275 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 6: sold out of its first run. It had a lot 276 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 6: of subscribers, about half a million, which is New Republic 277 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 6: was about one hundred thousand at that time, so that 278 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 6: was a really strong start. 279 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 3: It was really interesting to go back and look. 280 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 6: At the media coverage from that time because it was 281 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 6: all like this is dumb, like he doesn't know what 282 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 6: he's doing. 283 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 3: Nobody's going to care about this. 284 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 6: So the coverage throughout the Kind of Life of George 285 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 6: was skeptical, but readers threw into it. People bought it, 286 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 6: They got a of advertisers It was completely jam packed 287 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 6: with those high level advertisers that he said he couldn't get. 288 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 3: He did get them. 289 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 6: Graden Carter told me a story about going to try 290 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 6: to get advertisers in Detroit and nobody was interested in 291 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 6: talking to grad and they were all just waiting for John, 292 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 6: who was waiting in the hall to talk to the 293 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 6: next So they were really successful in getting those advertisers 294 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 6: that they thought they couldn't get. It was definitely a 295 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 6: successful launch, and it continued to be successful for a 296 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 6: number of years. Right before he died, they were having challenges. 297 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 6: The subscription numbers were going down. They were trying to 298 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 6: figure out new ways to draw readers, other deals to make. 299 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 6: MTV had been really interested in partnering with them early on, 300 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 6: and David Pecker was having conversations with TV companies about 301 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 6: doing some sort of George show with John as a host, 302 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 6: in spite of him saying he didn't want to do that. 303 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 6: So anyway, the launch was definitely successful. They had faced 304 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 6: challenges after a couple of years in business. 305 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: What examples of articles or columns were in George magazine. 306 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 6: Yeah, there was a regular column where John would interview 307 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 6: a famous person, so that was kind of a mainstay 308 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 6: that was in every issue. There was a running column 309 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 6: of If I Were President, where they would ask celebrities 310 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 6: like what would they do if they were president, which 311 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 6: to me was when I wrote this article was twenty nineteen. 312 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 6: It was during Trump's presidency, and you just think how 313 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 6: differently that would be received now. I think just asking 314 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 6: it was presented in a very lighthearted way, and so 315 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 6: there was that. There were also serious features. They had 316 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 6: a piece that Norman Mailer did for them. He profiled 317 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 6: I forget who he profiled, but Norman Mayler, of course 318 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 6: famously did a piece about JFK's campaign, which he wrote 319 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 6: for Esquire. So they had really serious writers too. But 320 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 6: it was truly a mix of politics and pop culture 321 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 6: in the topics that they covered. 322 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 4: I do want to point out one very funny tidbit 323 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 4: from the if I Were President column, which is you 324 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 4: quote Madonna as saying, if she were president, she would 325 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 4: kick out Howard Stern from the country and welcome Roman 326 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 4: plan Ski back in, which is such an incredible window 327 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 4: into the cyclical nature of these things. Men that are 328 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 4: not well behaved, they just go in and out of style. 329 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 4: In terms of which ones are cool to support as 330 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 4: like like a bold statement in which ones are not. 331 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 4: I think right now Howard Stern, despite many many things 332 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 4: you could say against him, is back in favor now. 333 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 4: So it would be the cool thing to say that 334 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 4: you want Howard Stern in and Roman Blansky out. 335 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 6: Yeah, that feels like a very shocking thing, I think, 336 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 6: to say to bring back Roman Plansky. But I've had 337 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 6: the same impression when I read that line from that column. 338 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 4: And there are so many names that are mentioned briefly 339 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 4: in your piece that sort of stop you dead in 340 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 4: your tracks, and Colter is one of them. So who 341 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 4: are some of the like famous columnist editors, writers that 342 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 4: we would then recognize later on? 343 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and Cultur had a regular column. John brought her 344 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 3: on to bring the conservative voice to the magazine. Jake 345 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 3: Tapper wrote a few pieces for the magazine. Chris Matthews 346 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: wrote a few pieces for the magazine. Kelly and Conway 347 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 3: was interviewed for the magazine. Yeah, there were. 348 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 6: As I flipped through, I was really lucky enough in 349 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 6: my research for this to be able to get a 350 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 6: hold of every single George magazine. One of the editors 351 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 6: had saved them and had bound them all together, and 352 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 6: I really recognized a lot of names, not just people 353 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 6: on who are on TV, people like Jake Tapper and 354 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 6: c but big name writers, magazine writers, Norman Mayler of 355 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 6: course being one example. 356 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 3: But they really had they had an amazing talent writing 357 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 3: for them. 358 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: Yes, So what exactly went wrong there? It seems like 359 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: a slam dunk. I've never said that out loud in 360 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: my life, but like, it seems so interesting to me, 361 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: I want to read it. I'm surprised that it wasn't 362 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: the success that could have been. 363 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 4: Well, it was initially, right, I mean that sort of 364 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 4: you know, came out with a bang. 365 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 6: Yeah, it was initially, and it's hard to say exactly 366 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 6: why it was faltering at the time of his death. 367 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 6: I mean, the magazine media business is a very hard business. 368 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 6: There were differences between John and David Pecker that I 369 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 6: heard about during the course of the reporting. There were 370 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 6: differences and how public John should be. David really wanted 371 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 6: him to go out there and be kind of a 372 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 6: show pony for George but also for the rest of 373 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 6: his portfolio, for the rest of the his shut brands, 374 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 6: and John was not happy with that. So David Pecker 375 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 6: left at one point, and they had a new publisher 376 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 6: in nineteen ninety nine, right before he died, so it 377 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 6: was kind. 378 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 3: Of going through a transition period. 379 00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 6: It was a period that you could if it had 380 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 6: lived for twenty years, you could look back and say, 381 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 6: those regular growing pains where it could have been the 382 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 6: beginning of the end. 383 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 3: There's no way to know. 384 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 6: And of course when he died, they had to make 385 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 6: the decision of whether or not to move forward with it, 386 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 6: and they decided to go forward and to you know, 387 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 6: see what it would be like without John in charge. 388 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 6: And it did not last for long after that. 389 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 4: So one of the it seems one of the like 390 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 4: signatures of it, you know, speaking of an culture and 391 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 4: Kelly and Conway, was that it had this approach of 392 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 4: showing both sides, which is a very kind of, you know, 393 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 4: i think, very nineties idealistic point of view. And I'm 394 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 4: wondering how was that perceived and was there any bias 395 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 4: that did sort of eke out or did they ever 396 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 4: do anything as bold as like an endorsement or an 397 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 4: extremely favorable profile of some sort of politician on the cover. 398 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 4: I mean, I know that they went easy on Bill 399 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 4: Clinton during the Lewinsky scandal. But what was If you 400 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 4: were to say, like, what was the politics of George magazine, 401 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 4: what would you say? 402 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 6: Yeah, some of the criticism of it and the media 403 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 6: was that it was politics magazine that wasn't particularly political. 404 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 6: They were really trying to be bipartisan, which I think, 405 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 6: as you said, is such a product of the nineties 406 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 6: and that period of idealism. But yeah, they kept to 407 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 6: that from what I saw. Giving someone like Gan Culture 408 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 6: a regular column I think really shows it. And Kelly 409 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 6: and Conway. I spoke to her for the piece and 410 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 6: she said that she throughout her career has been brought 411 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 6: into media organizations as the token conservative voice, but she 412 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:24,719 Speaker 6: felt like John really wanted to hear what she had 413 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 6: to say and hear the point of view of people 414 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 6: who were not in his social circles. So I think 415 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 6: that that did show in the magazine, and as I 416 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 6: get into in my piece, I don't know that that 417 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 6: could have worked throughout today, for example, but it feels 418 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 6: very caught in time. When you look at it, it 419 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 6: really feels like I can see how this would have worked. 420 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 6: Then I can see how it might not necessarily translate 421 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 6: to today. 422 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 4: Before we move on you know, I want to talk 423 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 4: about what happened after JFK. Junior died and the legacy 424 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 4: of the magazine and where it stands today, but I 425 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 4: do want to take a second to just chat about, 426 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 4: like what are your favorite kind of iconic covers, iconic photoshoots, 427 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 4: like articles that made a big impact. I mean, the 428 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 4: first one was Cindy Crawford dressed as George Washington. And 429 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 4: I love this part of the story, which is that 430 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 4: they initially the photographer or the art director or someone 431 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 4: put a sock in her pant so that she had 432 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 4: a bulge as George Washington, and then JFK. Junior hated 433 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 4: it so much that they had to airbrush it out. 434 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 4: So that's like the first cover, you know. 435 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 6: Yes, they came out with the bang. I mean, I 436 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 6: think that has to be my favorite cover. It's just 437 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 6: I feel like it was such a perfectly bold way 438 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 6: to start that magazine. They described brainstorming that cover over 439 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 6: Rolling Rocks with Carolyn Bessett in her writ so it 440 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 6: was a famous fashion photographer and came up with this 441 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 6: idea to have Cindy on the cover as George Washington 442 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 6: and to get her to book her John called her 443 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 6: directly and she told me, like, how do you say 444 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 6: no that? So she did it, and the art director 445 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 6: told me about they were looking at these portraits of 446 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 6: George Washington and there was the bulge in these portraits, 447 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 6: so why don't they give it a shot? And they 448 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 6: wanted to see how far John was willing to go, 449 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 6: and that was a bit too far. There's also a 450 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 6: really iconic one with Drew B. Moore as Marilyn Monroe, 451 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 6: which felt like a shocking decision for John to make. 452 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:05,880 Speaker 3: Marilyn Monroe, of. 453 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 6: Course, was always rumored to have had an affair with 454 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 6: his father, and they had Drew Barrymore addressed up as 455 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 6: her and kind of a happy birthday mister President motif 456 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 6: feels like a bold thing for him to do. And 457 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 6: I wrote in the piece that that was originally going 458 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 6: to be Madonna dressed up as his mom, and Madonna 459 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 6: Roe back, I could never pull it off. 460 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 3: I don't have her eyebrows. But yeah, there. The covers 461 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 3: were great. 462 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 6: They were And when I speak to people now about 463 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 6: the piece and speak about George Magazine, the covers or 464 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 6: I think what's sick in people's minds? They had really 465 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 6: great talent working they really got like one of the 466 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,239 Speaker 6: highest and fashion photographers, Matt Berman, who was the art 467 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 6: director when John was working on the magazine. He was 468 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 6: consistently the art director, and he shared a lot of 469 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 6: his sketches with me of these different setups for the covers, 470 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 6: and I think that's to me what makes the most impression. 471 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 6: This is kind of the most memorable part of the magazine. 472 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 6: Most of the people I talked to couldn't really remember 473 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 6: a specific article that really changed the culture in the 474 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 6: way that I feel like with Esquire Rolling Stone, there 475 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 6: are often these kind of really important pieces that really 476 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 6: changed the conversation. But I can't name any George Wins 477 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 6: that did that. But those covers really did stick in 478 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 6: people's minds. 479 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: So they're playing with Kennedy family history in the art. 480 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: How did they cover the Kennedys in the writing? 481 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 3: John was asked that when he launched it. He said, 482 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 3: you know, if my family's in the news, we'll cover them. 483 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 3: But there are plenty of other publications that are covering 484 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 3: the Kennedy's, Like, we don't need to be doing it 485 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 3: too much. And at that time there wasn't a ton 486 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 3: of Kennedy coverage. I think that just kind of by 487 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 3: design of what was going on in politics. But there 488 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 3: were famously two of his cousins who were involved in 489 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 3: these huge controversies in the late nineties. One of them 490 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 3: was accused of having a relationship with a teenage babysitter 491 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 3: and the other kind of very publicly cheated on his wife. 492 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 3: And the way John responded to that was writing an 493 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 3: editor's letter about temptation and kind of referencing his cousins 494 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 3: and his cousin's experiences, and then John posed partially nude 495 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 3: in his photo for the editor's letter. 496 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 6: The photo was the thing that time, they got the 497 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 6: most attention. But when you look back at the editor 498 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 6: letter now it's a little hard to take when you 499 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 6: think about the women who are the center of these controversies, 500 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 6: particularly the teenager. But yeah, there wasn't a ton of 501 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 6: Kennedy coverage in the magazine. 502 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 4: It's funny an editor in chief, a sort of famously 503 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 4: attractive editor in chief doing a nude photo shoot to 504 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 4: a company and editor's letter is almost something that, I 505 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 4: mean to state the complete obvious. If a woman didn't, 506 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 4: she would be like learned at the snake. 507 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I. 508 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: Know it does seem like a lot of the photo 509 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: shoots too, that they were doing at the time seem 510 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: borderline ridiculous. Yeah, you know they're playing with this combination 511 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 1: of pop culture and politics. But what were some of 512 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: the photo shoots at the time. 513 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 6: The two that come to mind, the two that I 514 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 6: mentioned that Drew Barrymore and the cover with the others. 515 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 6: They had a fashion shoot that there was the talk 516 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 6: of a national dress code and so they were like, oh, 517 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 6: what if high end designers designed the national dress code 518 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 6: for students? And that one fell very flat. It came 519 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 6: across kind of silly. I mean, you can see in 520 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 6: the pages the kind of push and pull of trying 521 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 6: to pull off this like lighthearted politics pop culture thing, 522 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 6: and that's it's a hard thing to do without doing 523 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 6: hard hitting, you know, political coverage next to it. 524 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 3: It's a challenge, and you can see it in the 525 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 3: pages that it was a challenge. 526 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, it seems like that is, you know, to theorize 527 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 4: about what didn't quite hit. It does seem like, as 528 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 4: you're saying, the difference between George and Vanity fair Esquire, 529 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 4: Rolling Stone, all these places, is that the entire point 530 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 4: was to combine high and low, so they were able 531 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 4: to get away with a Demi Moore cover or something 532 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 4: because inside they had a Norman Mahler essay, like a 533 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 4: Joan Didion as you know, things that lent it heft. 534 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 4: And it seems like maybe the overall tone of George 535 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 4: magazine was always pop culture. It wasn't combining high with low. 536 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 4: It was always sort of middle brown. Is that accurate? Yeah? 537 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 3: And I would say a lot of that was directly 538 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 3: from John. 539 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 6: One of the editors was telling me about a piece 540 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 6: that he had turned in that was kind of heavier 541 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 6: on the policies of politics, and John was like, our 542 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 6: readers care about the personalities. 543 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 3: And John was really very involved in editorial I think. 544 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 6: More than people realized, more than I realized when I 545 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 6: started reporting the piece. But he was in every editor's meeting, 546 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 6: He was staying there until late at night when they 547 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 6: were closing the magazine. He was the one giving directives 548 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 6: on direction of features, and of course involved in the covers. 549 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 3: He was doing these interviews every issue himself as well. 550 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 6: So John is all over that magazine, it really, and 551 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 6: that's not always you know, editors in chief, not even 552 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 6: just famous ones, but have kind of different roles to 553 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 6: play at each publication, but that was a John publication 554 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:37,719 Speaker 6: kind of threw and through when he was running it. 555 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 6: The tone of it, the kind of bipartisan, kind of 556 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 6: light spirit of politics. That was really what he was 557 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,479 Speaker 6: trying to do, and that's really what the magazine is. 558 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 3: He comes out with the magazine. 559 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: This predates the Clinton Lewinsky scandal, but it happens at 560 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: the exact same time, like a time when that was 561 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,679 Speaker 1: the joke on every late night show. It kind of 562 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: seems like the perfect example of how this magazine could 563 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: have been the huge success, like if it tapped into 564 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: that part of the zeitgeist. But for some reason they didn't. 565 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, she shied away from it. 566 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 6: They covered it in a way that was clearly like 567 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 6: we covered it, you know, we kind of checked the 568 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 6: box they had. 569 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 3: They had a piece of. 570 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 6: Avern and Jordan, and they did a thing about kind 571 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 6: of workplace relations or something like that, but they didn't 572 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 6: really kind of go for the hard hitting pieces about 573 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 6: what happened here, how did it happen? And when I 574 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 6: spoke to Keith Kelly, who was a media reporter at 575 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 6: the time who covered the magazine very closely, he felt 576 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 6: like that was really kind of a beginning of the 577 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 6: end type of thing for it. Like I said, it's 578 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,959 Speaker 6: very hard in retrospect to look at that four years 579 00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 6: and where we were when he died and to know 580 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 6: would have happened after. But that was pretty widely viewed 581 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 6: as an opportunity where they really could have captured the 582 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 6: national conversation around that, and he did it. I think 583 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 6: one you know, a piece of speculation was that his dad, 584 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 6: of course, famously had affairs while he was in the 585 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 6: White House, and that might have been side of things 586 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 6: that made John feel uncomfortable. He never said that, so 587 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 6: that's the speculation. And then editor who I spoke to 588 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 6: was working there at the time, also said that he 589 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 6: felt like they should have done more reporting, more journalism 590 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 6: around the Clinton Winsky scandal, and they did it. So yeah, 591 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 6: I think that John, being editor in chief, drew so 592 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 6: much attention to this publication and of course got advertisers, 593 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 6: but hit the Kennedy name. His own perspective could also 594 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 6: you know, cause challenges for it. 595 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 4: It's almost like he wanted to have his cake and 596 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 4: need it too. By having these provocative covers that referenced 597 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 4: Marilyn Monroe and reference his mom and Kennedy mythology, but 598 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 4: then doesn't back it up with like the juice that 599 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 4: people would expect. I mean, you would want to open 600 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 4: a magazine that has Drew barrymore as Marilyn Monroe, edited 601 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 4: by Kennedy and have political writing. Nineteen ninety nine JFK 602 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 4: Junior and Carolynbassett and her sister obviously tragically die in 603 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 4: a plane crash speaking of pop culture celebrities on the cover. 604 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 4: What happens after that to the magazine? 605 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 6: Yeah, so after their death there was a directive to 606 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 6: the staff of you know, we're going to keep going. 607 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 6: We're going to figure out what to do next. Haschett 608 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 6: bought the Kennedy families fifty percent stake in the magazine 609 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 6: and they pushed forward. There was a new editor in 610 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 6: chief installed. There was a lot of media coverage about 611 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 6: who would be the next editor in chief of George 612 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 6: without John. It was really hard for anyone to imagine 613 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 6: it without him. Mel Franken was one name floated, but 614 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 6: they ended up going with a long time managing editor 615 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 6: for Money magazine. Frank Lawley is the one who they 616 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 6: brought in, and there was huge turnover in the staff 617 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 6: after that, for many reasons, Frank got rid of a 618 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 6: lot of them, A lot of them left. Frank told 619 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 6: me he felt like John wasn't able to pursue his 620 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 6: own ideas for the magazine because he lacked the editorial expertise. 621 00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 6: Many people who worked with John, I think would really 622 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 6: disagree with that, but that was Frank's view. Is coming 623 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 6: in fresh as the editor in chief, so he wanted 624 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 6: to kind of start fresh. And then first the first 625 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 6: person he put on the cover was Donald Trump, which 626 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 6: the people who I spoke to who knew John said 627 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 6: he just never would have done that, I think, And 628 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 6: it was whenever I tell people I read a piece 629 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 6: about George, I think people often conflate the timelines and 630 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 6: they think John did that. And of course all of 631 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 6: these crazy qan on things about JFK Jr. And Trump 632 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 6: and all that. But that was the first cover after 633 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 6: his death. Another one of Frank's covers was Linded Trips. 634 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 6: Speaking of the Monica Lewinski story, people who worked with 635 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 6: John said that they also don't think he would have 636 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 6: put lind A Trip on the cover. So the magazine 637 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 6: Long story show did not last very long with al 638 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,479 Speaker 6: John and I'm just wondering. 639 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 4: The Trump cover was pre apprentice, so he was correct 640 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 4: me if I'm wrong, sort of like a tabloid joke 641 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 4: in New York Society, like he was this guy that 642 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 4: tried to punch above his weight. There's a story about 643 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 4: how during the photo shoot he kept grabbing Milania's but 644 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 4: you know, as they were being photographed. What was the 645 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 4: tone of the coverage of Trump? Was it making fun 646 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 4: of him? Was it endorsing him? 647 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 6: I think it was trying to keep that spirit that 648 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 6: John created the magazine with with like a this is 649 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 6: a person who has floorted with politics and Trump had. 650 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 6: The way that it was told to me was that 651 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 6: somebody on the business side was the one who floated 652 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 6: the name of Trump. And this was after David Pecker 653 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 6: left as well, so there were a lot of people 654 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 6: in the Trump orbit who the timeline didn't quite match up. 655 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 6: So it wasn't David Pecker, but somebody on the business 656 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 6: side said, this guy, Donald Trump is really interesting and 657 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 6: he's constantly in the news and he has floated these 658 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 6: political aspirations. We should put him on the cover. But 659 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 6: if you look back at the coverage, it's definitely not 660 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 6: making fun of him. It's more celebratory than the other side, 661 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 6: but it's kind of trying to present this bipartisan picture 662 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 6: of like, here's this New York personality. 663 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 3: And can you imagine if he wants to be president 664 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 3: one day? I think not probably imagining what would have happened. 665 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's something in your article that I thought was 666 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: really interesting in a shocking moment. There's a story about 667 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: him having creative differences with his co founder and that 668 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: they had the physical altercation. 669 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, are there more details on that. It's hard to imagine. 670 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 3: It is hard to imagine. 671 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 6: I know I reread it myself recently and I'd kind 672 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 6: of forgotten that that was in there. But yeah, that 673 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 6: had been reported in the media when it happened, as 674 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 6: most things about the magazine were, there was so much coverage. 675 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 6: I think that was an I forget where that was, 676 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 6: but it was reported publicly. The people who were working 677 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 6: there at the time remember it happening. They remember there 678 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 6: was a ripped shirt sleeve and that John had bought 679 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 6: Michael Berman a new shirt as an apology, and he 680 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 6: had a lock installed on his door. That there was 681 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 6: a physical altercation, but that nobody I spoke to really 682 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 6: remembered exactly what it was over. Nobody I spoke to 683 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 6: saw it happened. They just kind of saw the aftermath 684 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 6: of it. But yeah, it was kind of a disconcerting 685 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 6: and jarring detail. 686 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 4: And JFK. Junior's temper was sort of an ongoing storyline 687 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 4: even outside of George Magazine. I mean, there was like 688 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 4: the famous video of him and Carolyn fighting in Central Park, 689 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 4: and it seems like maybe generally speaking he was well like, 690 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 4: but that's the one thing where people were like, well, 691 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 4: he does have a temper. You have to sort of 692 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 4: like stay on his good side. 693 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 694 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 4: I have a question that I forgot to ask earlier, 695 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 4: which is we keep mentioning Graydon Carter as someone who 696 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 4: was somehow collaborating with him. What was that relationship because 697 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 4: Graydon was at Vanity Fair at the time. 698 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 6: Yeah, they were kind of Nimessies at the time, so 699 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 6: they were competing against one another. So Graydon had Vanity Fair, 700 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 6: which is the biggest magazine at the time. They were 701 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 6: selling a million copies a month, and then George was 702 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 6: coming up and in a way trying to compete against 703 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 6: Vanity Fair. I think in John's kind of highest aspirations 704 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 6: George and Vanity Fair would have really been kind of 705 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 6: dueling on the newsstands. Vanity Fair was a much more 706 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 6: successful magazine, even considering the successful launch of George. But yeah, 707 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 6: Graydon and John wereked business adversaries, So you. 708 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,479 Speaker 4: Know, we're in a very weird time in media and 709 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 4: in magazines. I was actually thinking as I was reading 710 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 4: about George Stephanoppolos being this young upstart from the Clinton campaign, 711 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 4: I was thinking, and I say this in a completely 712 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 4: neutral way, that the modern equivalent is like the pod 713 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 4: Save America guys coming from the Obama administration and founding 714 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 4: their media company, and now instead of a magazine, it 715 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 4: is a podcasting company. And you know, maybe in the 716 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 4: next generation it will be some sort of like short 717 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 4: form video. You know, who knows what, But I guess 718 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 4: my question is what is the legacy of George Magazine 719 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 4: and what would a George magazine type media enterprise look 720 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 4: like today. 721 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 6: I think that the kind of takeaway that I had 722 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 6: is that John was right about his instincts that politics 723 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 6: of pop culture would continue to kind of merge. I think, 724 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 6: obviously in the president that we have, you see that 725 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 6: that's very true. Though Obamas had this deal with Netflix. 726 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 6: I think neither of those were things that we could 727 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 6: have quite predicted in the early nineties. So I think 728 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 6: he was right and that so I think the concept 729 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 6: for the magazine he had the right instincts. I don't 730 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 6: think George could be around today. I think the tone 731 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 6: of it just wouldn't quite work. The thing, though, is 732 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 6: that everyone covers politics team Vogue. Fashion magazines like l 733 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 6: do huge political profiles. Vogue often has some of the 734 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 6: biggest names in politics on the cover. I think it's 735 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 6: just politics is everywhere and you really can't pull the 736 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 6: two apart now, so it's just hard to imagine George today. 737 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 6: The interesting case study, in my mind is Jack Schlosberg, 738 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 6: who of course is JFK. Junior's nephew. What he's trying 739 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 6: to do with politics and social media pop culture. I think, 740 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 6: having written the article and also the book, thinking about 741 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 6: what people in the Kennedy family do with that name 742 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 6: and with that legacy is really interesting. A lot of 743 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,959 Speaker 6: them have kind of challenging to figure out what to 744 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 6: do with this incredible legacy on their shoulders. 745 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 3: A lot of them, of course completely. 746 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 6: Stare away from the spotlight, but the ones who want 747 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 6: to engage with politics are engage with the national conversation. 748 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 6: I think Jack's kind of how he's pursuing voice is 749 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 6: in some ways kind of echoes what John was doing 750 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 6: with George. 751 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 3: I think John was interested in politics. 752 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 6: A lot of people I spoke to thought that he 753 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 6: would run for office one day after he got the 754 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 6: magazine kind of on its own two feet. I think 755 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 6: I see that with Jack two I think, do you 756 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 6: see him trying to kind of figure out a voice, 757 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 6: trying to have his say about politics in the world, 758 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 6: And the way you do that now is social media. 759 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 3: The way you did that in the nineties was with 760 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 3: the magazine. 761 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 6: So I think that's kind of one of the more 762 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 6: interesting kind of legacies of it. 763 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 4: Yeah. I was thinking of Jack, especially because of the 764 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 4: cheekiness they both have. They both combine the severity of, 765 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 4: you know, someone who is in a political dynasty with 766 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 4: a sense of humor of like a pop culture media figure. 767 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 4: And specifically I immediately thought of Jack because when we 768 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 4: were talking about John wanting to do a cover that 769 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 4: references his mom or that references his dad, Lyra and 770 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 4: I were just looking through Jack Schlasberg's social media output 771 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 4: for a different episode, and he had one tweet where 772 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 4: he asked, who does everyone think is hotter, Usha Vance 773 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 4: or Jackie Kennedy, which is of course his grandmother. And 774 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 4: so it's like they both like landed on the same joke, 775 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 4: which is, haha, my mom or grandmother was attractive. Yeah, 776 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 4: And it's true so funny that just in this new generation, 777 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 4: as you're saying, the equivalent of a magazine is becoming 778 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 4: a social media influencer and jack is now like going 779 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 4: live on Instagram and trying to have his own sort 780 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,919 Speaker 4: of like low budget talk show. And you know, there 781 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 4: are some warning signs that I would say, maybe i'mply 782 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 4: that it might be short lived, you know, in terms 783 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 4: of immedia property. But it is part of a long 784 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 4: legacy of these sort of more like trickstery Kennedy's that 785 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 4: exist when every generation. 786 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 6: Yeah, and you can tell like they knew they wanted 787 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 6: to say something about politics, and they knew they wanted 788 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 6: to have people hear them, and so they're using the 789 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 6: medium of their times. 790 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 3: But I think I think it's a challenge. 791 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 6: I think that being a Kennedy, people are going to 792 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:35,839 Speaker 6: pay attention to whatever you do and whatever you say 793 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 6: and kind of what you do with that, You're going 794 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 6: to be met with a lot of criticism and it's 795 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 6: an interesting challenge. 796 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 4: So you're currently a features editor Rolling Stone. You've worked 797 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 4: in magazines for most of your career. What is your 798 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 4: take on the where we are with magazines and with 799 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 4: rent media and with digital media. I know it's the 800 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 4: worst possible question I could possibly ask a career journalist, 801 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 4: but I do want to know, like, when you think 802 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 4: of your career in magazines, when you think of people's 803 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 4: relationship to magazines during such a crazy turbulent political time, 804 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 4: what do you see the future for the next five 805 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 4: to ten, twenty years. 806 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's an impossible question, and when I 807 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 6: ask myself, I feel like every day I guess. 808 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 3: What I would hope is that I've always. 809 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,280 Speaker 6: Been features, so I've always done real trend of true 810 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 6: long form magazine storytelling, and my hope is that kind 811 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 6: of storytelling will exist with these incredible legacy brands in 812 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 6: some capacity. A lot of the stories I work on 813 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 6: now are turned into documentaries and feature films and books. 814 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 6: So I think the best way to exist in magazines 815 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 6: today is to be very grateful that I'm in magazines 816 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 6: while they still exist, but to also be sort of 817 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 6: flexible in terms of what that will be in the 818 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 6: next ten or twenty years. Just to hope that the 819 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 6: storytelling remains intact even if the pages of a magazine don't. 820 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 6: And I think if that's the case, if these stories 821 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 6: are existing and you know, various other ways other than 822 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 6: a hard copy of the magazine, that's okay. 823 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 4: All right, Well, we'll see you on Jack Schlosberg's Instagram 824 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 4: talk show for the second part of this discussion. 825 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 3: See you in the van. 826 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 4: All right. Thank you so much, Kate for joining us. 827 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 4: This was really a delight. 828 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me. 829 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 4: Thank you. 830 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: So that's it for this week's episode. 831 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 4: Next week, we're talking all things Carol Radswell. She's the 832 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 4: former real housewife of New York City who was married 833 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 4: to JFK. Junior's cousin, Anthony Radswell. 834 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all 835 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: Things Kennedy every week.