1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: When I mentioned the name Roll Dall, do you what 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: do you think of? 3 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 2: Definitely you need the BFG. That was a classic Charlie 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 2: and the Chocolate Factory. And I think there was a 5 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 2: series of the glass gray Glass elevator. Love those. 6 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: When you picture Doll in your mind, what does he 7 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: look like? 8 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 2: Well, he's definitely older, gentleman, I would say, seventy ish, 9 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: kind of big guy. Not fat, certainly not fat. He 10 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 2: doesn't like fat people. But like you know, a tall man, 11 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 2: bin cardigan sweater, a beard, sitting in a big kind 12 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 2: of comfy reading chair, kind of like masterpiece theater style. 13 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: When I mentioned the name Roll Dahl, what do you 14 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: think of? 15 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 3: So? 16 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 4: I think of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Matilda James 17 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 4: and the Giant Peach, and that he was I think 18 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 4: an anti Stlite. 19 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: Dad. What do you know about Roll Dahl? Almost nothing. 20 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 5: I think I Knowd's name, but if you ask me 21 00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 5: what he did, I. 22 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,319 Speaker 1: Don't think I could tell you anything about it. Did 23 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: you know the doll was a spy for British Intelligence? 24 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:06,839 Speaker 2: No worry, I did not know that. 25 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: That's wild. He worked for my sex. 26 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 2: Very surprising. I'm very curious. 27 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: Was this before he wrote his stories. It must have 28 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: been during the war. Roll Doll was a spy for 29 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: British intelligence. What his job was literally to seduce the 30 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: wives of powerful Americans and he was really good at it. 31 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 4: Okay, I don't think that's true. 32 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: I'm telling you I was a spy. I talked to 33 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: a lot of people about rolldal and none of them 34 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: knew even a fraction of his full story. And the 35 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: full story is bananas. Forget the Roll Doll in your head, 36 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 1: the one who's the most successful children's author of all time. 37 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: Forget the image you have of him, which, if it's 38 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: like mine, is a disheveled BFG look like grandfather figure 39 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: and a worn out cardigan and shaped like a spoon. 40 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: Because the Roll Doll I'm about to introduce you to 41 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: operated in the shadows of World War II as a 42 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: dashing British spy. Honestly, we could do a whole ten 43 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: part series just about the spy unit Doll was recruited 44 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: into during the war, a group of secret British agents 45 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: in America that called themselves the Irregulars, a name they 46 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: took from the informal network of child spies and Sharlock Holmes, 47 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: which also tells you how they see themselves, young men 48 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: operating in the shadows where traditional agents can't go. So. 49 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: Picture a handsome, twenty five year old Doll, four thousand 50 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: miles from home, thrust into this world without a single 51 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: day of espionage training. Imagine how intimidated he feels walking 52 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 1: into a room with this collection of remarkably almost suspiciously 53 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: handsome and charming men who seemed born for this work. Doll, 54 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: on the other hand, feels like an imposter in way 55 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: over his head. Let's hear from the man himself, Roll Dall, 56 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: describing his unlikely employment goals. 57 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 5: My job was to try to help WinCE Churchill to 58 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 5: get on with FDR and hell Winston. What was in 59 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 5: the old boy's mind in America? 60 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: I mean, how cool is he playing it there as 61 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: if he's just setting a lunch with some old pals 62 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: and not orchestrating an alliance between the two most powerful 63 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: leaders in the free world. As you'll hear, Doll's whole 64 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: life is one surprise after another. It defies all expectations. 65 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 1: We would never expect a writer like say Stephen King 66 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: to secretly conduct espionage, or Jason Bourne to retire from 67 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: his spy work to pen forty nine beloved books that 68 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: change children's literature forever. The combination simply should not exist 69 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: in one human being. But then, how do you explain 70 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: Roll Dall impossibly implausibly real. Welcome to his deeply bizarre universe. 71 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: I promise it'll only get stranger from here. For my 72 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: hard podcasts, Imagine Entertainment and Parallax. This is the secret 73 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: world of Role Dall. I'm your host, Aaron Tracy. I 74 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: also teach in the English department at Yale, So books 75 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: have always been a huge part of my life, and 76 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: dolls were the foundation, the first ones I ever cracked 77 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: open and read on my own. Doll's stories are would 78 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: turn me onto reading. But that's only part of why 79 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: I've spent decades obsessed with Roll Doll. I'm even more 80 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: fascinated by what an enigma he is. He tries on 81 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: all these different masks, kind of like Bob Dylan. He's 82 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 1: impossible to nail down. The man is a total cipher, 83 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: which is maddening when you think about the fact that 84 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: we offer him up to our most impressionable population. I 85 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: have two young kids. They're going to grow up reading 86 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: Doll like millions of others. Now, when my wife and 87 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: I hire a babysitter, you better believe we do a 88 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: little digging into who she is first. But we just 89 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: happily bring Doll into our children's rooms, and not to 90 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: get too precious about it, but into their hearts and minds, 91 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: letting him worm directly into their ears night after night. 92 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: Shouldn't we have some idea of who this guy is? Well, 93 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:10,239 Speaker 1: I promise you you don't, but you're about to. Another 94 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: reason I'm really obsessed with Doll is because he lives 95 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: the noisiest, craziest, most adventurous life you've ever heard. As 96 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: a writer, I'm a writer. Literally, no one would describe 97 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: me as adventurous. I write a ton of TV and 98 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: audio dramas. But at eleven am as I record this 99 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 1: and I'm still in my bathroom. The most adventurous I 100 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: ever am is changing up my smoothie recipe by adding peppermint. 101 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 1: That's what being a writer is. But no one told 102 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: Roald Dahl. You may only know Dahl for his books, 103 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: but when we're done with this series, you're gonna feel 104 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: like his writing is about the nineteenth most interesting thing 105 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: about him, which is especially bananas. When you'll get the numbers. 106 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: The man has sold over three hundred million books. He's 107 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: been translated into sixty three languages. And we put that 108 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: three hundred million copies sold into context. Herman Melville, Henry James, 109 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: Virginia Woolf, Tony Morrison, Philip Roth, fellow children's author Shel Silverstein. 110 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: Add up all of their sales of all of their books, 111 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: and it equals about twenty five percent of Dolls. That's 112 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: a nutting number. Here's another one. In twenty eighteen, the 113 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: Hollywood Reporter wrote that Netflix spent around one billion dollars 114 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: for the rights to Dolls works. But of course his 115 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: impact is so much bigger than the stats. The man 116 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: has permeated our collective consciousness. I have never in my 117 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: life unwrapped a candy bar without part of me wondering, 118 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: even for just a millisecond, if there might be a 119 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: golden ticket in there, Which is meant to say, I 120 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: don't have my issues with the man. He could be difficult, 121 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: sometimes incredibly nasty to those he's closest to, kind of 122 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: like some of his characters, it's easy to forget how 123 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: he actually treats the kids in his books, especially the 124 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:44,679 Speaker 1: ones who aren't the heroes. 125 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 6: Take missus glup straight to the fudge room, but look sharp, 126 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 6: or her little boys are able to get poured into 127 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 6: the boiler. 128 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 3: You bot him up. I know it. 129 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 5: Goodbye Missus gloup adiu Alvider's Yep. 130 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: All those children on the chocolateur A get tortured in 131 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: gruesome ways. Same in the Witches, same in Matilda. There's 132 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: so much nastiness there, leaks off the page, staining your fingers. 133 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: When he died in nineteen ninety, the Washington Post, my 134 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: hometown newspaper, did not mince words. Quote. No children's author 135 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: of the past thirty years has regularly sparked more controversy 136 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: than Roald Dahl. On the one hand, kids consistently name 137 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: him their favorite writer. On the other, our best critics 138 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: maintained that his books are larded with gratuitous violence, bigotry, sexism, vulgarity, greed, 139 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: and all manner of foulness. And that's not some hit 140 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: piece or social media takedown, it's his obituary. Dahl's nastiness 141 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: and his controversies have sucked up a lot of oxygen 142 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: in the past few years. I now look at the 143 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: spines of his books on my shelf, not that differently 144 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: than I look at JK. Rowlings, which is to say, 145 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: kind of queasily. We'll definitely get into all that. It's fascinating, 146 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: sometimes ugly stuff from a guy who helped shape generations, 147 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: but for now, I'll just say it's a strange, super 148 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: complicated thing to admire so much about Doll with the 149 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: knowledge that he wouldn't have come to my Hanaka party. 150 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: My friend, the writer Ben Dolnik, captures the dilemma perfectly 151 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: in a short essay he wrote. He writes about watching 152 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: his daughter fall heglong quote into that extraordinary, silent, inexpensive schedule, 153 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: disrupting passion of reading. Ben wrestles with watching her cherish 154 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: books written by a man who may have been repelled 155 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: by her very existence. I wanted to start the show 156 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: off by talking to friends about their perceptions of Doll, 157 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: because the weirdness that people see in him is really telling. 158 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: Here's the opening of a BBC profile from nineteen eighty two. 159 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: This is how a venerable, respected network introduces one of 160 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: the world's most famous authors. The man who lives in 161 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: this house makes very good orange marmalade. He also reads orchids. 162 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: He has never eaten a dish of tripe in his life, 163 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: and he wishes that his dog could speak to him. 164 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: He's Roald dal who else in the world will be 165 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: introduced like that? He makes very good or marmalade and 166 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: has never eaten s tripe. But that's how people talk 167 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: about Doll. He's a curiosity, a character, not a man. Honestly, 168 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: I think it's at least partly due to his appearance 169 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: a real life giant at six foot six plus. He's 170 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: got that name that's so unusual for most people, and 171 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: his creativity is just so off the charts. So with 172 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: all that, he can't possibly be like you and me, right, 173 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: he must be some fantastical creature that just wandered into 174 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: our world. People are desperate for him to be a 175 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: real life BFG or a Mistrench bol or Willy Wonka, 176 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: which fine is not that unfair or unusual. We definitely 177 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: imagine Hemingway was as haunted as his characters. We'd feel 178 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: cheated if Phoebe waller Bridge wasn't as raw or hilarious 179 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: as hers. But here's the crucial difference. Those other writers' 180 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: characters operate within the boundaries of recognizable human behavior. Doll's 181 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: creations exist in a universe where children turn into blueberries 182 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: and giants roam the countryside collecting dreams. So was Doll 183 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: really is? Mischievous and outlandish? Whimsical and grow Tescus his 184 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: characters sort of? Now, I'm incredibly excited to tell you 185 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: about Doll's very strange life as a very real secret agent. 186 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: Picture Doll in his early twenties, that critical moment when 187 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: most of us are fumbling to find our path. Not 188 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: long before, he'd been soaring through the skies as a 189 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: fighter pilot for the Royal Air Force, but a series 190 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: of catastrophic crashes have left him broken, his flying career 191 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: abruptly terminated. So now he's at a crossroads. The war 192 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: continues to rage, but his part in it has been 193 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: stripped away, and he's looking for what to do with 194 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: his life. Doll finds himself at a cocktail party in 195 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: London that a date has tried him to. He towers 196 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: awkwardly above the crowd, nursing a drink, contemplating an early exit. 197 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: It's an elite crowd, but it's a lot of rehearsed 198 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: anecdotes and performative laughter. Then something catches his eye, a 199 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 1: solitary figure standing apart. Not a film star or socialite, 200 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: but someone far more intriguing to a political obsessive like 201 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: dahl Major Harold Balfour, a member of Churchill's war cabinet, 202 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: one of the men literally deciding the fate of Britain. 203 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: As German bombs fall in London. Dahl Sen says this 204 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: could be his chance. Impressing the Major might lead to something, 205 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: though he has no idea that this conversation will alter 206 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: the trajectory of his entire life. Let me pause here 207 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: for a quick sec to set the scene for what's 208 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: going on in the world, because it's crucial to what 209 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: Doll is about to become part of. The late nineteen 210 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: thirties and early forties are one of those rare times 211 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 1: that it's not an exaggeration to say the fate of 212 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: the world is at stake. Hitler isn't just winning battles. 213 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: He's winning the war, mostly because the US is sitting 214 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: on the sidelines. The British ambassador warns his government that 215 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: nine out of ten Americans are determined to stay out 216 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: of the war, in other words, to not help Britain. 217 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: The most famous of these is Charles Lenburg. 218 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 6: It is not that England is losing war, and I 219 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 6: have been forced to the conclusion that we cannot win 220 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 6: this war for England, regardless of how much assistance we sin. 221 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 6: That is why the America First Committee has been formed. 222 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: And this is while Germany is sweeping through Europe. The 223 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: Nazis take Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, 224 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: Luxembourg and France, and America we're just watching an unfold Many, 225 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 1: if not most, Americans are still traumatized from the first 226 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 1: time we joined at a World War twenty years earlier. 227 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: The memory of American boys coming home in coffins We're 228 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 1: not coming home at all, remains raw. The thinking is 229 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: simply that Hitler is not our problem. The public isn't 230 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: yet aware of what's going on with the Jews of Europe. 231 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: The reports of them being rounded up and sent to 232 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: concentration camps is just too impossible to believe, so we 233 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: choose not to. Britain, of course, is on the brink. 234 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: You know this, You've seen the movies, read the books, 235 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: listen to the podcasts, Think Churchill Pacing War Rooms by Lamplight, 236 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 1: Britain's darkest hour. If FDR doesn't send help and fast, 237 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: England is done. So put yourself in Winston Churchill's position. 238 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: Your island nation stands as one of the last flickering 239 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: lights of democracy in Europe. Your cities are being bombed 240 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: into rubble. Your people are sleeping in subway tunnels, and 241 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: across the Atlantics, it's America, powerful, untouched and stubbornly unwilling 242 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: to join the fight. What wouldn't you do to change 243 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: their minds? At that point? Is anything off the table? 244 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: This is where espionage becomes not just an option but 245 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: a necessity. Okay, So back to our cocktail party. Dollspot's 246 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: Major Balfour, a man who's signature on documents can move 247 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: troops and redirect warplanes. Doll takes a deep breath, and, 248 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: with that peculiar confidence that will define him throughout his life, 249 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 1: he crosses the room, introduces himself in some begins to chat. 250 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: Doll gives great chat. His conversation has all the hallmarks 251 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: of his later fiction. Wickedly funny, wildly creative, a little dirty, 252 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: totally compelling, Doll is one of those people who just 253 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: instinctively knows how to captivate. I'm always so jealous of 254 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: those people, the ones who have small crowds gathered around 255 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: them at parties, funny and magnetic without being at all 256 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: self conscious. The Major, like everyone else who meets Dall 257 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: in this period, is taken with him. And then it happens. 258 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: The Major tells Doll that he's looking for smart, well 259 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: educated young men to go to America to join the 260 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: British embassy. This conversation has changed everything, but not how 261 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: Doll thinks it has. Doll thinks he's being recruited for 262 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: a diplomatic post. What the Major leaves out is what 263 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: he really has in mind for Doll. Military intelligence. The 264 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: head of the Irregulars has tasked the Major with finding brilliant, articulate, charming, 265 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: morally flexible young men with military backgrounds to join his outfit. 266 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: The Major seems to have found such a man. The 267 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: very next week, Dolls out a plane to Washington. When 268 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: Dohl first arrives in DC, he's entranced. It's this big 269 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: cauldron of power ego mixed with ambition, mixed with secks, 270 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: mixed again with power, Yet it all feels as intimate 271 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: as a college campus. Everybody knows everybody. I grew up 272 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: in DC and then the Northwest part of it. Walk 273 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: into any restaurant, linger in any bookstore, sit at any 274 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: coffee shop counter, and people are talking politics. It's in 275 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: the water supply, just like the entertainment industry in LA. 276 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: So every room Doll enters is an opportunity. Doll's trickiest 277 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: endeavor when he first arrives is finding decent housing in 278 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: the notoriously overcrowded city. He opens the newspaper and looks 279 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: through the classifieds. He finds a surprisingly nice place that 280 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: he can actually afford. The reason he can afford it 281 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: is because there was a bloody murder suicide in it 282 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: last week. Victim Rosemary Sigley, was a beautiful young researcher 283 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: for the agency that becomes the CIA. She was also 284 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: a wealthy heiress. Her murder was a giant scandal, and 285 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: two days after there was a line of people outside 286 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: waiting to see if the scene of the crime would 287 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: be rented at a discount. You gotta love the real 288 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: estate market. But what's important for us is that Doll 289 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: is the first man in that line, which tells you 290 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: so much about who he is. The future author of 291 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: tales filled with darkly comic violence, isn't remotely bothered by 292 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: the apartment's bloody history. If anything, there's a flicker of 293 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: fascination as he signs the lease. The apartment's gruesome backstory 294 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: isn't a deterrent, It's almost an attraction. The man loves gruesome. 295 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: Here's one of his most beloved books, with a little 296 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: girl torturing her. 297 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 7: Nemesis, when if you tried to poison me, Oh, Matilda. 298 00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: I knew it. 299 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: So Much of Doll's fiction pulls the reader towards scenes 300 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: of fear and dread. There's a ton of children in 301 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: peril and adults with real bad intentions, danger lurking, and 302 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: what we thought were safe spaces. He's able to conjure 303 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: these scenes so well because they're part of his fabric. 304 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: Dahl SE's darkness everywhere, which means he barely notices it anymore. 305 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: When Dall moves into Rosemary's place, it takes him two 306 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: nights before he spots the rusty bloodstains still in the 307 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: carpet and the single bullet hole in the ceiling. Lots 308 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: of people me very much included, would immediately move out. 309 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: Doll simply makes a mental note of it, another detail 310 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 1: and the strange tapestry of his life, and goes to 311 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: sleep under the same roof where a bullet ended someone 312 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: else's now. Dall is ostensibly in DC to work for 313 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: the British Embassy, so that's what he does for a while. 314 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: He pushes diplomatic papers, attends formal functions, fills out reports, 315 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: and he's suffocating. Each morning he sits before stacks of documents, 316 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 1: watching the clock move with excruciating slowness. Dahl wants something 317 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: bigger for his life. He's searching for something with meaning. 318 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: But what Dall doesn't realize is that someone is watching 319 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: his every move. The big legendary figure you need to 320 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: know about right now is William Stephenson code name Intrepid. 321 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 1: Stevenson is Winston Churchill's head of espionage in America. He's 322 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: one of the key inspirations for James Bond, who was 323 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: created by one of his agents. This gives you a 324 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: sense of what Stephenson looks like, impeccably dressed, handsome features 325 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: and penetrating eyes that catalog everything. His clean cut compose 326 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: and emanates the confidence of a man who can have 327 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: you vanished with a single phone call. This is the 328 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: man whose attention now turns to Roll Dall to accomplish 329 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: Britain's mission during this really scary time. Stevenson is the 330 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: one who assembles that elite, spiring the Irregulars. Writer and 331 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: historian Jeanette Conan calls their operation one of the most 332 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 1: controversial and almost certainly one of the most successful covert 333 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: action campaigns in the Annals of Espionage. Stevenson's eye for 334 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: talent is wild. Just for starters. There's Rolldall, of course, 335 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: and Ian Fleming, who later creates James Bond, essentially immortalizing 336 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: his own experiences here, and David Ogilvy, who goes on 337 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: to invent modern advertising. Three world class creators of fantasy. 338 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: So picture Roll Doll, James Bond, and Don Draper all 339 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: hanging out, drinking and seducing their way through a foreign 340 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: capital during wartime, and you start to have a sense 341 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: of what it's like. The whole thing feels like the 342 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: premise of a prestige TV series. Beautiful Rakish young men 343 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: recruited into a shadow organization far from home because of 344 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: their smarts, persuasiveness, and talent for deception, tasked with doing 345 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: whatever they have to to save the free world from fascism. 346 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: The mission of the Irregulars is broad gathering intelligence, sabotaging enemies, 347 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: and creating propaganda that shifts public opinion. Their official history 348 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: describes them as howard with the vague task of doing 349 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: all that was not being done and could not be 350 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: done by other means, Which, come on is a license 351 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: to operate in the gray areas if I've ever heard one. 352 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: Doll can't believe he's been recruited into this group. A 353 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 1: month ago, he was languishing in the English countryside, desperate 354 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: to figure out his life, hungry for purpose. Now he's 355 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: found a role filled with subterfuge, deceit, storytelling, and role play. 356 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: In other words, all of his natural skills with the 357 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: highest stakes imaginable. The personal stakes for Doll are huge too. 358 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: He can't go home to Buckingham Sure after this and 359 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: tend to the sheep. This job is about to become 360 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: his whole identity. You can tell how formative it all 361 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 1: is for Doll by the fact that it echoes through 362 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: his later fiction like a recurring dream. Willy Wonka with 363 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: an air of mystery beneath a playful exterior, constantly testing 364 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: those who enter his orbit. He's definitely inspired by Stevenson 365 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: and others Doll works for in the Spy Game, also 366 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: the Secret Society and the Witches that performs covert missions. 367 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: All of these stories that are going to captivate millions 368 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: of children are born in the shadows of wartime espionage. 369 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: So far, though the Irregulars are failing at their task 370 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,880 Speaker 1: of winning America to their side, they're forced to get creative. 371 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: One of my favorite tactics of theirs is when they 372 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: hire a Hungarian astrologer, Louis de Wall. The assignment they 373 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: give him to publicly predict Hitler's demise based on the 374 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: positions of the stars and therefore make Germany seem less 375 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: scary to Americans. It's like a pr smear campaign on 376 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 1: the fascist dictator. Can't you just picture these younger regulars 377 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: around a table at two am at some smoky Georgetown bar, 378 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: whiskey flowing. One says, what if we just told Americans 379 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: they have nothing to lose because the stars have already 380 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: decided the Third Reich is done for and instead of 381 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: laughing it off. There's a long silence. They look at 382 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 1: each other intensely and say that is brilliant. They're so 383 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: tickled with their idea they send Louis on a national tour. 384 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: Stevenson's main tactics, however, involved targeting the upper echelons of 385 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: the US government, and this is both to bring the 386 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: US into the war, and once that's accomplished, to make 387 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: sure London maintains significant influence. If Britain can get someone 388 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 1: close to the American president, that would be huge. Enter 389 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: young Roll Doll. It turns out one of Doll's skills 390 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 1: in particular makes him especially effective with the irregulars. It's 391 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: the same skill he'll later become legendary for his storytelling. 392 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: Doll has recently begun writing short stories. It's not yet 393 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: the all consuming passion it will become. Like many young writers, 394 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: Doll is trying to find his voice by writing mostly autobiographically. Specifically, 395 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: he's churning out brief fiction pieces inspired by his childhood 396 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 1: and his time in the Royal Air Force. The stories 397 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: are clever and dark, a little scary, and totally original. 398 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: One story in particular centers on these grotesque little creatures 399 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: he calls Gremlins whose sabotage aircraft a fun Gothic story, 400 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: which doubles is a fable for American and British cooperation. 401 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: One reason to Work continues to be read and seen 402 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: and performed over a century after his birth is that 403 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: Lake Greek myths, his narratives tapp directly into our primal 404 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: fears and desires. They speak to universal human concerns, wrapped 405 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: in the irresistible package of the bizarre and scary and funny. 406 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: The Gremlins has all of this. And in case you're wondering, 407 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: as I was, this Gremlins has nothing to do with 408 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: the Stephen Spielberg produced classic. Dall mails the story out 409 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 1: to every magazine accepting unsolicited submissions, and one bites the 410 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: Gremlins gets published in a local journal, and the story 411 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: connects with readers. Those who dig it pass it around 412 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: to their pals. Of course, in these days that means 413 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: literally handing your copy of the physical magazine to someone. Eventually, 414 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: because this is just how Doll's luck works, his story 415 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: gets passed to a certain very important person. 416 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 5: You may have heard of, Eleanor Roosevelt, ready to her grandchildren. 417 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 5: And I loved this book. 418 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: Here's Dahl years later on a chat show on BBC 419 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: one speaking to host Terry Wogan about his stroke of 420 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: incredible fortune. 421 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 5: And so I got invited to the White House and 422 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 5: we got to know each other a bit, you know, 423 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 5: and I would go for weekends. FDR had his country 424 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 5: place is called Hyde Park at Fast Place, and used 425 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 5: to go there to know him. I was only a 426 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 5: young chap of twenty six in an RAF uniform, and 427 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 5: I had no business around there. 428 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: Really, are you kidding me? First, by just befriending a 429 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: staffer or an intern in the Roosevelt administration would be giant. Doll, 430 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: in his mid twenties, becomes pals with the First Family 431 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 1: and how he do it through his skill he hasn't 432 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: yet realized will be his superpower. Making up a clever story. 433 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: Dall spends his time at Hyde Park, swimming, bird watching, 434 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: barbecuing and drinking with the President and First Lady. He's 435 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,239 Speaker 1: making mental notes on everything, desperate to report it all 436 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: back to Stevenson and prove himself in the job. According 437 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: to Dol, he even managers to spend time alone with FDR, 438 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: mixing Martiniz before lunch while the tipsy President says things 439 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: like I just received an interesting cable from mister Churchill, 440 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: and then proceeds to tell Doll what Churchill wrote. Surprise, surprise, 441 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: FDR clearly takes a liking to Doll. Two. He even 442 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: drives Doll around the property and especially made car. It 443 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: all feels pretty surreal for a young man not many 444 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: years out of high school who's been tapped as a 445 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: spy and is now casually hanging out with the most 446 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: powerful couple on the planet. At the end of his 447 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: first weekend with the First Family in all those lavish surroundings, 448 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: Doll goes back to his tiny apartment with the bloodstained 449 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: carpet and writes up an incredibly thorough twelve page report 450 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: with journalistic precision quote visit to Hyde Park July second 451 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: to fourth, Yeah, he got invited there for July fourth. 452 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: Doll's report includes everything FDR said about Churchill, his impressions 453 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: about whether FDR will run for another term, and everything 454 00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: else he thinks could even possibly be relevant. Whether Doll's 455 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: report was read by Churchill himself, but it's clear his 456 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: work helps the British government gain insight into where America stands. 457 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: There's even a suggestion that Roosevelt may have used Doll 458 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: to convey information to the British that was impossible for 459 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: FDR to stay outright for diplomatic reasons. For Doll, it 460 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: is such a head trip. Writer Matthew Denison points out 461 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: Rold's life have become a double life. He was still 462 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: ostensibly working for the British embassy at the same time 463 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: he was a gather and conduit of information in Britain's 464 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: best interests. Needless to say, Doll's handlers are more than 465 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: a little shocked and beyond thrilled with this kid, and 466 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: Dall's early success only makes him more confident. The young 467 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: man who felt rudderless just months earlier now moves through 468 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: Washington with the assurance of someone who believes he can't fail. 469 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: One of Dall's more salacious tasks for the Irregulars is 470 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: seducing powerful women in order to enlist their help. This 471 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: is a task the young Doll is very excited about. 472 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: He's also built for it, and he uses this trait 473 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: for his most important seduction with a woman with the 474 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: very whimsical very dolli in name Claire Booth. Loose Dolls 475 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: first sent to Claire because of who she's married to. 476 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: Claire is one half of one of the most influential 477 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: power couples of the century. Her husband is Henry Loose, 478 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: who builds a media empire that quite literally shapes what 479 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,120 Speaker 1: millions of Americans think. He's the founder of Ready for It, 480 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: Time Magazine, Fortune Magazine, Life Magazine, and Sports Illustrated. When 481 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: these publications begin running pieces with distinctly anti British undertones, 482 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: British intelligence is not happy for a nation fighting for 483 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,719 Speaker 1: its survival. This isn't just bad press, it's an existential threat. 484 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: If American public opinion turns against Britain, vital Aid could 485 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: evaporate overnight. The irregulars have to find a way to 486 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: change the tenor of Henry's magazines. They're not sure how 487 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: to reach Henry, who's notoriously stubborn, but maybe they can 488 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: get to his wife. After all, it's an open secret 489 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: that the Loose marriage is unconventional. For its final twenty 490 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 1: eight years, Henry apparently refuses to sleep with Claire. He 491 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: says he's in such profound awe of her that he 492 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 1: can't get aroused, a truly tragic condition that vanishes whenever 493 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: he's around almost literally any other woman. Dahl first meets 494 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 1: Claire at the New York premiere of a propaganda film, 495 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: Eagle Squadron. It's about US airman who volunteered to fly 496 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: with the Royal Air Force. The lobby outside the screening 497 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: room is packed with DC power players. Cigar smoke hangs 498 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: in lazy clouds beneath crystal chandeliers. The murmur of hush 499 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: conversations about policy and the war intermingles with the clink 500 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: of cocktail glasses. Dahl's date, Nancy Carroll, is a celebrity 501 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: once nominated for Best Actress, which tells you everything about 502 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: Doll's social currency. There whispers about the impropriety of Nancy's 503 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: obvious infatuation with Dol, who's twelve years younger than her, 504 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: but Nancy doesn't seem to care, and neither does All. 505 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: He already draws attention with his height and good looks. 506 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: He enjoys the gaze of the room, but doesn't seek it, 507 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: and his focus is now pulled elsewhere. Claire Loose is 508 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: not in a spotlight, but in a pocket of conversation 509 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: where men lean down to hear her. Doll doesn't approach, 510 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: not yet. He observes how Claire holds court teasing some 511 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: young congressman who said the wrong thing. The house lights 512 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: begin to flicker. Dahl leads Nancy into the theater, but 513 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: as they settle in, his eyes remain Unclare Claire spots 514 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: his stare, this impossibly handsome, impossibly composed British diplomat. She 515 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: gets a chill when she realizes he's not looking away. 516 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: He's telling her this look is not a passing glance, 517 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: not an accident. Doll has already been briefed on Claire 518 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: by the irregulars. For Claire's part, there's no flustered, bashful reaction. 519 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: Dall does not return home that night. Later in the week, 520 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: when Dall dutifully writes a letter to his mother, he 521 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: tells her everything, and I mean everything, even about his 522 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: awkward exchange with his landlady. After getting home from Claire's. 523 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: He writes, quote, I got home at nine am the 524 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: next morning. I had to do a lot of talking 525 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: to re establish my reputation. Doll's job, of course, isn't 526 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: just to have one night stance. If he's going to 527 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: change Claire's opinion of the Brits and try to get 528 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: her to influence her husband's magazines. It needs to be 529 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: a more involved affair. Dall soon realizes focusing only on 530 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: the effect Claire might have on time and life is shortsighted. 531 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: Changing Claire's mind about the Brits will also be hugely helpful, 532 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: because what I haven't mentioned yet is that Claire is 533 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: incredibly influential in her own right. Claire lives a giant life, 534 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: almost as noisy as Dolls Blake Doll. Claire finds incredible 535 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: success in a number of completely different fields. She starts 536 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: out as a short story writer. The New York Times 537 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: finds her first published volume superficial, but praises its quote 538 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: lovely festoons of epigrams, and writes, what malice there may 539 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: be in these pages has a falinity that is the 540 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: purest angoring. I have absolutely no idea what that means either, 541 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: but I guess it's not good because it pushes Claire 542 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: to pivot away from short stories and to try playwriting. 543 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: Turns out she's pretty good at it. In nineteen thirty six, 544 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: Claire writes The Women, which runs over six hundred performances 545 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: on Broadway. It's a commentary on the pamper lives of 546 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: wealthy Manhattan socialites, which Claire is about to become. The 547 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: play is adapted twice for the movies, later with a 548 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: Net Betting and Meg Ryan, but first with Joan Crawford. 549 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 5: Well, girl, looks like it's back to the perfume grounded 550 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 5: for me. 551 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 6: And by the way, there's a name for you, ladies, 552 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 6: but it is used in high society outside of. 553 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: A kennel Lake Dahl, Claire bores easily. After her success 554 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: with the Women, Claire decides to move into journalism. She 555 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: works at Vogue Vanity Fair, then decides to try war 556 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: correspondent for Life magazine. Growing restless yet again, Claire takes 557 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: her varied experiences in creative writing, journalism, and in the 558 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: war and decides to run for Congress. Accomplished, beautiful and wealthy, 559 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: Claire wins her election, and she's seated on the powerful 560 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: House Military Affairs Committee. Here she is years later on 561 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: the cartoonishly conservative William F. Buckley Show, speaking about the 562 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: subject of men versus women. 563 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 3: Man's ruth strength. We're stronger than a woman's strength. It's 564 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 3: that simple. After which, in order to get out from anger, 565 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 3: she developed a thing called guile. Gile was weaponed against tyranny. 566 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: With Claire's seat in Congress, her powerful committee assignment, and 567 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: her unique ability to captivate audiences with her writing, plus 568 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: her husband's little publishing empire, you could argue Claire's about 569 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,959 Speaker 1: as influential as it gets, which is bad for the Brits, 570 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: because she also gives a blistering forty minute speech on 571 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: the House floor arguing passionately against cooperation with England. If 572 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: Doll can help sway her, he'll be a hero to 573 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: the irregulars. Claire is in a very different social stratosphere 574 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: than twenty something Dull, living off cheese sandwiches in his 575 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: tiny walk up apartment. But even though Claire is already 576 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: incredibly successful, anne married, and at thirty nine, thirteen years 577 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: older than Dahl, she falls for him. Here's a tall, 578 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: handsome ex pilot who can talk literature and theater with 579 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: her in a way most DC boys cannot. The relationship 580 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: is electric, and Doll is soon complaining to his superiors 581 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: about Claire's appetite. According to a lawyer who serves an 582 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,719 Speaker 1: FDR's administration, again with a name that may as well 583 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: be out of a Doll story, Creak more Fath Doll 584 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: confides in him that he just can't take another night 585 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: with Claire. She's completely worn him out over three NonStop evenings. 586 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: He doesn't have anything left. I went to the ambassador 587 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: this morning, Doll says, and I said, you know, it's 588 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: a great assignment, but I just can't go on. And 589 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: according to Dol, the Ambassador replied, Rold, did you ever 590 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: see the Charles Lotton movie Henry the Eighth Do you 591 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: remember the scene of Henry going to the bedroom with 592 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: Anne of Cleaves and he turns and says, the things 593 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: I've done for England, Well, that's what you've got to do. 594 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: Many years later, Doll will put the things I've done 595 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: for England line into Sean Connery's mouth as James Bond. 596 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: I don't really believe the British Ambassador said all that 597 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: to Doll. To me, this feels less like a real 598 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: complaint and more like a humble brag. Dolls trying to 599 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: figure out what it means to be a man in 600 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: this uncertain period. Should he be a macho playboy or 601 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: a more sensitive man of letters. He's twenty six. This 602 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: is when you figure out who you are, which isn't 603 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: easy when you're lying about your identity. It's almost everyone 604 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:36,320 Speaker 1: you meet. The overall effect of Doll's relationship with Claire 605 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 1: is pretty profound. He reports back on all his intimate, 606 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 1: candid conversations with her. He's able to tell his superiors 607 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: about internal debates regarding the British that are happening in 608 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: Congress and behind closed doors in influential media circles. He's 609 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,479 Speaker 1: offering unparalleled insight into American political dynamics, and he helps 610 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: the British craft proactive ways to engage the Americans for help. 611 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: And pretty soon, wouldn't you know it, Life Maga is 612 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: running some pro British stories framing Britain as America's most 613 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: essential ally. But even more importantly, dall is in weekending 614 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: with the President, carrying on an affair with the congresswoman 615 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: and mingling with some of the most powerful figures in 616 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: the country. In espionage accesses everything, and Doll has it, 617 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: But he's still far from achieving all his goals. He 618 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: still has a lot of work left to do, and 619 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: he's going to have to do it with a ton 620 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: of obstacles in his way. While I've mentioned that pretty 621 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: much everybody who meets Stall loves him. The truth is 622 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: that when anyone is as successful as Dollars, there are 623 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,240 Speaker 1: going to be those who don't appreciate it. A charming, arrogant, handsome, 624 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: twenty six year old foreigner actively practicing espionage on behalf 625 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: of six in the US and conducting affairs with some 626 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: of the most powerful women in the nation. Yeah, that's 627 00:35:50,800 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: going to engender some enemies for one, the FBI. The 628 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: Secret World of Roll Dall is produced by Imagine Audio 629 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,760 Speaker 1: and Parallax Studios for iHeart Podcasts. Created and written by 630 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: me Aaron Tracy, produced by Matt Schrader, post production by 631 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: wind Hill Studios, with editing, scoring, and sound design by 632 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: Mark Henry Phillips. Editing by Ryan Seton, music by a PM. 633 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: Executive producers Nathan Cloke, Karl Welker, Brian Grazer, Ron Howard, 634 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: and Aaron Tracy. Additional voice performances and recreation by Mark 635 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: Henry Phillips and Eleven Laps. If you enjoyed this episode, 636 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: be sure to rate and review The Secret World of 637 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: Roll Dall on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 638 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: Copyright twenty twenty six Imagine Entertainment, iHeartMedia and parallax