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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace horrific. A beautiful little girl, Jaalen,

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Speaker 1: just eight years old, trampoline dead and scorching Texas heat

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Speaker 1: one hundred and ten degrees fahrenheit. By who an evil monster?

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Speaker 1: I guess you could say so, her sick parents. I'm

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: It's a hot summer morning in Odessa, Texas, and eight

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Speaker 3: year old Jalen Schwartz is outside jumping on the trampoline.

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Speaker 3: But what appears as an otherwise fun and innocent game

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Speaker 3: for an eight year old girl turns out to be deadly.

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Speaker 2: Abuse jumping on the trampoline.

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Speaker 1: There was never a happier day than when our twins

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Speaker 1: got a trampoline. Of course, we dragged it straight to

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Speaker 1: the front yard and it's been the centerpiece ever since.

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Speaker 1: But for this eight year old little girl, the trampolining

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Speaker 1: wasn't for fun. It was for punishment. Joining me in

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Speaker 1: all star panels straight out to Erica Miller joining.

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Speaker 2: Us from Odessa, Texas.

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Speaker 1: Content Manager Digital ep K m I D Big two News. Erica,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: It's that mean. It wasn't jumping the trampoline for fun.

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Speaker 1: It was for punishment.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the forms of the punishment in this house seemed

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Speaker 4: to be rather sadistic.

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Speaker 5: For me.

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Speaker 4: It's it's knowing that what a Texas heat is like

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Speaker 4: West Texas is dry is there's no cool breeze, no shade,

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Speaker 4: and so knowing that she was out there being punished.

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Speaker 4: When your child is out in that kind of heat playing,

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Speaker 4: you check on them routinely, constantly, because you know the

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Speaker 4: danger is very real. So to have these little girls

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Speaker 4: out there as a form of punishment was horrible. They

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Speaker 4: couldn't get into the house, and they couldn't turn the

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Speaker 4: spigott to turn on the faucet outside. There was no water,

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Speaker 4: There was no respite from that heat for them.

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Speaker 1: Erica Miller joining us from KMID and now to a

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Speaker 1: special guest. It's Tom Green, former Chief Deputy chau County

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Speaker 1: Sheriff's Office in the Homicide Division and the Cold Case

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Speaker 1: Squad currently PI Private I at Nevada Investigative Services. Tom Green, again,

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Speaker 1: as always, thank you for being with us. I find

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Speaker 1: that very probative. In other words, it proves something that

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Speaker 1: this little girl, just eight years old, is punished by

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Speaker 1: forcing her to jump on a trampoline, NonStop and correct

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Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, Erica Miller, she can't have a

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Speaker 1: water break. If she gets tired and thirsty and has

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Speaker 1: to stop, the punishment must continue without water.

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Speaker 2: And if she gets water, then.

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Speaker 1: Time is added on. And what I'm saying is probed

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Speaker 1: of Tom Green, is that, as you heard Erica Miller say,

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Speaker 1: the spickets were cut off. She couldn't just walk up

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Speaker 1: like in many houses there's a water spickett on the

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Speaker 1: side of the house somewhere, maybe.

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Speaker 2: A hose attached to it.

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Speaker 1: No, they had those cut off.

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Speaker 2: A dysfunctional Tom.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you know that.

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Speaker 5: We see such a tragic, tragic story, and you know it,

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Speaker 5: and it does show. It shows an intent, right, it

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Speaker 5: shows an intempt to potentially harm these children, to put

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Speaker 5: them in great danger. And it's torturous. You know that's

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Speaker 5: not all. That's not all they did. I mean, it's

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Speaker 5: just sick and statistic and torturous, is what I see.

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Speaker 1: Tom Green joining us out Arena, former chief deputy in

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Speaker 1: Washoe County. You're right, other punishments, when taken in context,

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Speaker 1: prove or I would submit, prove that she wasn't jumping

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Speaker 1: for fun. So many routine events or chores were turned in,

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Speaker 1: they were weaponized, turned into punishment. And you know, Tom

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Speaker 1: Green says something really interesting straight up to Kenneth Trey

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Speaker 1: gober managing partner League Gobert and Raina there in Texas.

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Speaker 1: Kenneth Trey Gobert, let me throw this at you. Very often,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you, as a veteran trial lawyer, would argue, well.

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Speaker 2: Where's the intent here?

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Speaker 1: It's not just sending the child out to jump on

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Speaker 1: the trampoline in one hundred and ten degree weather. It's scorching.

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Speaker 1: Then you've got the heat on top of the trampoline,

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Speaker 1: the black trampoline cover like on a parking lot that

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Speaker 1: gets hotter than everywhere else because of the black asphalt.

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Speaker 2: But every minute adds to the pre meditation.

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Speaker 1: And you and I know as trial lawyers, premeditation can

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Speaker 1: be formed in an instant and the twinkling of a moment,

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Speaker 1: the blink of an eye, the time it takes you

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Speaker 1: to literally pull a trigger. The law does not require

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Speaker 1: a long drawn out plan like hmm, I'm gonna kill

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Speaker 1: Trey gober by hiding behind his car and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: wait three or four hours until he walks out at lunchtime,

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Speaker 1: then I'm gonna cap him, or like a long drawn

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Speaker 1: out poisoning over weeks and months to kill your target.

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Speaker 1: Premeditation does not require any particular amount of time.

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Speaker 7: Does it.

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Speaker 8: This was a difficult one for the defense, but there's

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Speaker 8: a difficulty to prove in an intent on this case. Nancy.

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Speaker 8: You know, children go out, they jump on trampolines every

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Speaker 8: single day. Parents have them do that. We talk about

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Speaker 8: when you get kids away from screen time and more

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Speaker 8: going outside and having fun and so.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yes, but mostly no. All parents want their children

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Speaker 1: to go out in green spaces and get off, stop

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Speaker 1: lying on their bed on top of their phone. But

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Speaker 1: are you actually equating forcing a little girl eight years

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Speaker 1: old and one hundred and ten degree weather one hundred

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Speaker 1: and ten degree weather. You're saying they did this to

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Speaker 1: keep her away.

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Speaker 2: From screen time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know what. Listen to this.

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Speaker 9: So let's start a timer and let's see exactly how

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Speaker 9: hot it gets in here. I'm at five minutes in.

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Speaker 9: It is unbelievably hot in here. We're nearing one hundred

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Speaker 9: degrees already, and I can tell you that it is

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Speaker 9: stifling in here. Okay, I'm at fifteen minutes now, and

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Speaker 9: it's about one hundred and ten. In my car. The

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Speaker 9: temperature right now is about one fifteen. What I really

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Speaker 9: wanted to set out to do is see how it

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Speaker 9: felt to be left in a parked car.

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Speaker 1: That's around our friend doctor Ernie Ward's YouTube channel, and

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Speaker 1: we enlisted that because we were looking at hot cars.

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Speaker 1: He was actually speaking about leaving your dog in a

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Speaker 1: hot car. But the principle is the same here because

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Speaker 1: he's in a car and it's you know, maybe one

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Speaker 1: hundred degrees outside. But because of being in a car,

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Speaker 1: the temperature skyrocketed. Same thing here because she is on

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Speaker 1: a black trampoline surface. It is drawing the sun and

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Speaker 1: the heat in right. That's why in the desert they

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Speaker 1: wear white and beige garments to reflect the sun, not

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Speaker 1: draw it. In here, the heat is intensified as it

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Speaker 1: would be in a car.

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Speaker 2: Let's see that one more time.

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Speaker 9: So let's start a timer and let's see exactly how

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Speaker 9: hot it gets in here. I'm at five minutes in.

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Speaker 9: It is unbelievably hot in here. We're nearing one hundred

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Speaker 9: degrees already, and I can tell you that it is

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Speaker 9: stifling in here. Okay, I'm at fifteen minutes now and

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Speaker 9: it's about one hundred and ten in my car. The

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Speaker 9: temperature right now is about one fifteen. What I really

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Speaker 9: wanted to set out to do is see how it

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Speaker 9: felt to be left in a parked car.

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Speaker 2: From doctor Ernie Ward's YouTube channel.

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Speaker 1: Okay, back to you, Trey, Trey Gober, veteran trial lawyer.

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Speaker 1: So you actually said on National TV that they sent

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Speaker 1: her out, possibly to get away from screen time, to

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Speaker 1: get her off her phone. Okay, did you just hear

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Speaker 1: the doctor say it started one hundred degrees and within

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Speaker 1: fifteen minutes it was one hundred and he found that

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Speaker 1: quote stifling. He couldn't breathe. He was starting to feel

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Speaker 1: dizzy out there. The little girl's in one hundred and

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Speaker 1: ten to start with, on that thick black trampoline material.

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Speaker 2: So how does the fact that.

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Speaker 1: They would not let her have water breaks factor into

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Speaker 1: your wild speculative theory that maybe they were trying to

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Speaker 1: get her off her cell phone. No water breaks?

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Speaker 2: What does that have to do with outdoor time, Trey Gober.

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Speaker 8: We don't know what they were doing, and the need

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Speaker 8: to prove no water breaks is something that the fenced

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Speaker 8: or the prosecution has to defend the proof on the case.

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Speaker 8: We do know that even though the trampoline material was black,

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Speaker 8: that that surface was cooler than the ground. The ground

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Speaker 8: measured at one fifty that day. It was hot, but

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Speaker 8: new splash, it gets hot.

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Speaker 1: Up.

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Speaker 3: I'm I'm so happy.

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Speaker 1: Did you just say that the trampoline was better than

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Speaker 1: the ground because the ground temp was what.

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Speaker 8: The measurement I saw was that it was one hundred

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Speaker 8: and fifty that day in some of the ground temps.

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Speaker 1: One five zero. I'm glad you made that admission, Tray Gober,

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Speaker 1: because now the choices are put the child on one

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Speaker 1: hundred and ten degrees scorching trampoline service, or she could

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Speaker 1: just stay outside where the ground is one hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty one five zero. You said that you did that

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Speaker 1: to yourself, Trey. That's not helping you.

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Speaker 8: The point is is we don't know what the mendrea,

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Speaker 8: what the intent was, or if there was intent on

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Speaker 8: the part of these guardians. Certainly a lot of parents

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Speaker 8: would never do this with their children. We know that

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Speaker 8: they did in this instance, and unfortunately a life was

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Speaker 8: lost in the because of it.

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Speaker 1: However, and you're doing it again, Tray Gober, I know

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Speaker 1: how you win all your cases.

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Speaker 2: You said a life was lost?

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Speaker 1: Okay, if I took out an oozy and shot you

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Speaker 1: did right now? Do you think it would be appropriate

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Speaker 1: for a commentator to say a life was lost? It

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Speaker 1: sounds like there was a big accident.

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Speaker 2: A life was lost.

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Speaker 1: Hgl n Oh. This child had no water and was

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Speaker 1: Erica Miller joining us out of Odessa? How long did

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Speaker 1: the little girl, just eight years old? How long was

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Speaker 1: she forced to jump?

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Speaker 4: From what I understand, she was out there all day long.

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Speaker 4: She had was given pigs in a blanket for breakfast,

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Speaker 4: and I believe during the course of the day was

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Speaker 4: given two cups of water. But she was out there

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Speaker 4: all day long. And I believe the last time the

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Speaker 4: parents saw her was about one point fifteen and they

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Speaker 4: said she was rolling around on that one hundred and

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Speaker 4: fifty degree ground with the dogs. And then about one

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Speaker 4: point thirty fifteen minutes later they said that she had collapsed.

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Speaker 4: But she had been out there all day long, and

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Speaker 4: when it was time for lunch, the mom offered peanut

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Speaker 4: butter and jolly sandwiches and juice, and the little girl

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Speaker 4: couldn't eat. She said she wasn't hungry. My guess says

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Speaker 4: she didn't feel very well and didn't feel like eating,

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Speaker 4: But we know it was at least from breakfast time

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Speaker 4: on to near about two o'clock in the afternoon.

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Speaker 10: She laid there on that trampoline for at least an

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Speaker 10: hour and a half to two hours before anybody ever

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Speaker 10: even found her.

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Speaker 3: On Saturday, August twenty ninth, Jalen is on the trampoline

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Speaker 3: for hours. The door to the house is locked, she

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Speaker 3: doesn't have any water, and she has been jumping for hours.

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Speaker 3: Whenever she stops jumping, she loses a water break. After

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Speaker 3: three hours of jumping on the trampoline with temperatures hovering

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Speaker 3: around one hundred and ten degrees, Jalen passes out from.

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Speaker 2: WKYT TV.

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Speaker 3: After a contentious custody transfer. Eight year old Jalen Schwartz

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Speaker 3: and her younger sister Jade are subjected to cruel and

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Speaker 3: unusual punishments by their adoptive parents, whose questionable methods of

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Speaker 3: discipline include forcing the girls to pick up dog feces

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Speaker 3: with their bare hands or carry weights in a hallway

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Speaker 3: till they're told to stop. On this day, little eight

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Speaker 3: year old Jalen is forced to jump on a trampoline

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Speaker 3: NonStop without water or food or breaks in the sweltering summer.

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Speaker 1: Text and heat, and that is the tip of the iceberg.

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Speaker 1: Everyday chores weaponized as punishment.

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Speaker 2: Listen disapline that.

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Speaker 5: These two little girls went through with the.

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Speaker 8: Guardians involved head shaving and involved prolonged corture.

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Speaker 11: Jumping on a trampoline is something Jalen Shores does for fun,

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Speaker 11: but the activity has been used by Ashley and Daniel

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Speaker 11: Shores as punishment. Jalen is forced to jump without stopping

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Speaker 11: until she's told she can stop. Their innocent activities such

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Speaker 11: as writing lines to improve her handwriting skills, carrying weights

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Speaker 11: in a hallway, or picking up dog feces have also

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Speaker 11: been weaponized by Jalen's guardians. As a punishment. Jalen is

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Speaker 11: forced to write lines over and over again until she's

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Speaker 11: told to stop. She's forced to carry weights from one

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Speaker 11: end of the hall to the other and back again,

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Speaker 11: or to pick up dog feces with her bare hands.

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Speaker 11: When the chore is not a punishment, she gets to

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Speaker 11: use gloves.

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Speaker 1: This is certainly not the first time that exercise or

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Speaker 1: fun or household chores are weaponized to become draconian, harsh

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Speaker 1: discipline for children that equals child abuse. I will never

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Speaker 1: forget the name of a little girl, Savannah Harden. Grandma

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Speaker 1: caught on tape telling the girls school bus driver she'll

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Speaker 1: quote run the girl until she quote can't run no more.

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Speaker 1: That from her f at hln the little girl, Savannah.

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Speaker 1: The grandma finds out that she ate a candy bar

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Speaker 1: what she's not supposed to do, so she forces the

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Speaker 1: little girl to carrie a load of logs.

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Speaker 2: This little girl carrie.

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Speaker 1: A load of logs and run around and around and

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Speaker 1: around the house until she literally drops dead listen.

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Speaker 7: To punish her, According to investigators, Joyce Gerard began making

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Speaker 7: her grandchild run around the house and this continued, they say,

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Speaker 7: for about three hours, until she collapsed into a seizure.

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Speaker 11: Nine year old Savannah Harden comes home from school and

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Speaker 11: grandmother Joyce Gerard finds out this Savannah ate a candy

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Speaker 11: bar she isn't supposed to eat chocolate. As punishment, Gerard

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Speaker 11: makes Savannah run around the house for hours until Savannah

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Speaker 11: collapses into a seizure. Stepmom Jessica hard And calls nine

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Speaker 11: to one one and Savannah is airlifted the Children's hospital

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Speaker 11: in Birmingham where Savannah dies. Savannah had run the equivalent

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Speaker 11: of a marathon without a drink of water.

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Speaker 12: They are currently being held on murder charges.

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Speaker 1: This is sel any murder on aggravated child abuse.

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Speaker 2: Darn right, it's felony murder.

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Speaker 1: That from our friends at hl N, what is that phenomena?

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Speaker 1: To Lynn Shaw joining me, founder and executive director of

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Speaker 1: Lynn's Warriors, a nonprofit committed to ending torture on young

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Speaker 1: girls and women, Lynn, systematic discipline equals felony murder, Explain

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Speaker 1: what this phenomena is.

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Speaker 13: What's happening is they're breaking down children's minds. We are seeing,

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Speaker 13: we work with law enforcement, we are seeing increased cases

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Speaker 13: of child abuse that has horrific circumstances around it. And

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Speaker 13: my fear is that children are becoming habituated to it,

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Speaker 13: so they're not reporting it. Society's becoming habituated. It's becoming

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Speaker 13: almost normalized. Where is the outrage from everybody, our precious children.

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Speaker 13: Why aren't we outscreaming about this? We cannot have this.

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Speaker 13: But all I know is this kind of abuse is

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Speaker 13: psychological damage, breaks down children's minds, and I'm so afraid

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Speaker 13: all of this is getting buried underneath what's really going

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Speaker 13: on here, which is just torturous, sadistic abuse and increasing

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Speaker 13: across the United States with children.

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Speaker 1: Karen start joining me forensic psychologists, renowned TV radio trauma expert.

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Speaker 1: You can find her at Karenstark dot com. That's Karen,

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Speaker 1: See Karen. You and I just covered the case of

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Speaker 1: Ruby Frankie and what's so amazing. She was a mommy

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Speaker 1: vlogger and I believe the name of her show was

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Speaker 1: eight Passengers. She had of children. She's in jail now,

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Speaker 1: thank God, in heaven. And she and her cohort, another

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Speaker 1: minion straight out of hell, Jodie Hildebrant, had this mommy

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Speaker 1: vologging where they would actually give advice about basically how

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Speaker 1: to brutalize your children, and they became stars on the Internet,

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Speaker 1: stars doling out this evil advice. And the abuse she

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Speaker 1: heaped on her children finally came to light when one

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Speaker 1: of the little boys, a son, Oh Karen, remember the photos.

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Speaker 1: Let's see the photo of him starved, the bones sticking

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Speaker 1: out of his back. He managed to break loose and

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Speaker 1: run to a nearby house, and then the guy that

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Speaker 1: lived there calls nine one one, and the grown man

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Speaker 1: breaks down in tears over the phone, describing how the

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Speaker 1: little boy has been bound at the risk he's starving.

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Speaker 1: And Karen Stark, millions of people were listening to her advice,

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Speaker 1: and finally somebody says, this is cray, that's child abuse.

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Speaker 1: But it went on for months and month years of

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Speaker 1: her doling out her evil child advice.

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Speaker 14: Unfortunately, Nancy, parents and when you all know this mother's

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Speaker 14: parents are looking for advice all the time. They don't

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Speaker 14: know in a lot of circumstances, what's the best way

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Speaker 14: to raise children. They have to guess. There's no textbook.

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Speaker 14: And these people's sadistic abusers were sort of from you.

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Speaker 2: Put Karen Stark up.

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Speaker 1: Karen Stark, did you actually do you need a textbook

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Speaker 1: to tell you?

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Speaker 2: I mean, please tell me you haven't fallen under trade

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Speaker 2: go or spell.

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Speaker 1: Please you need a textbook to say, don't make your

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Speaker 1: eight year old little girl jump in one hundred and

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Speaker 1: ten degrees scorching hate for hours on end without water

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Speaker 1: until she dies. Do I need to read a self help.

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Speaker 2: Book for that?

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Speaker 14: Well, but that's what it was coming across, as Nancy.

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Speaker 14: It's important to understand that she was promoting it as

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Speaker 14: self help and actually it was sadistic abuse, but that's

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Speaker 14: not how she was coming across, and nobody understood that

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Speaker 14: until later on when this little boy fortunately escaped. You

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Speaker 14: have to take a look at this punishment, which was

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Speaker 14: really abusive. She called it, you know, punishment, but it

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Speaker 14: was control, breaking down the will of the children, actually

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Speaker 14: dehumanizing them, and that happens in these kinds of situations.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Tom Green joining me, former

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Speaker 1: Chief Deputy Washoe County now PI, owner of Nevada Investigative Services,

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Speaker 1: Tom Green looks can be very deceiving because when I

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Speaker 1: just saw a picture of that sweet little girl and

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Speaker 1: her sister, you'd think everything was perfectly fine, right, same

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Speaker 1: thing with the turpens.

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Speaker 2: Be asked, Tom Green.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, And you know, the other thing that we know

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Speaker 5: in law enforcement is that child abuse happens in secret.

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Speaker 5: And if I recall correctly, this happened during COVID. So

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Speaker 5: not only does child abas happen in secret, but during COVID,

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Speaker 5: children were restricted from being around other adults, being around

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Speaker 5: the children, being in public venues, being at school, So

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Speaker 5: the chances for eyes to be on them was reduced greatly.

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Speaker 2: Denying her water. Back to Karen start and joining me.

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Speaker 1: Renowned psychologist reminds me again of the even mistress of Satan.

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Speaker 1: Ruby Frankie now where she needs to be in the

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Speaker 1: pen the Big Dollhouse. Karen Stark, I want you to listen.

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Speaker 1: She actually posted this. It's like the Emperor's Clothes. Nobody

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Speaker 1: wanted to say she's abusing her children, and she's blogging

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Speaker 1: about it. Here she describes how she wanted to punish

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Speaker 1: her little girl, tiny little girl, like first grade ish,

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Speaker 1: because the little girl didn't make her own lunch that

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Speaker 1: morning and take it to school. The teacher calls and says, hey,

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Speaker 1: she's hungry, and Ruby Frankie was just totally fine with that.

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Speaker 2: Listen to this, Karen Stark.

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Speaker 1: Nine, I'm on the address of your emergency, okay, and

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Speaker 1: the phone numberer calling from tell me exactly what's happened.

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Speaker 6: I just had a twelve year old boy sew up

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Speaker 6: here at my front door asking for help, and he's

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Speaker 6: a said he had just came from a neighbor's house,

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Speaker 6: and we know there's been problems at this neighbor's house.

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Speaker 6: He's emaciated, he's got tape around his legs, he's hungry,

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Speaker 6: and he's thirsty.

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Speaker 1: So back to Kenneth Trey Gober, the enforced exercise, the

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Speaker 1: denial of water, it's a form of child abuse. So

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Speaker 1: your earlier argument, which I respect, I disagree with it,

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Speaker 1: but I respect it might carry the day on a

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Speaker 1: mensrea malice murder, planning a forethought intent to commit the crime,

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Speaker 1: even though they forced her to jump for hours and

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Speaker 1: hours and hours. But what about felony murder, which means simply,

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Speaker 1: as you know, a death occurs in the commission of

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Speaker 1: a felony, with the underlying felony being child abuse. They're

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Speaker 1: abusing her an eight year old girl and one hundred

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Speaker 1: and ten degrees scorching Texas, he a trampoline, hours and

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Speaker 1: hours punishment for asking for water.

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Speaker 2: That's child abuse, and.

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Speaker 1: A death occurred, whether they meant for it to occur

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Speaker 1: or not. How would you escape fail any murder charges.

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Speaker 8: These underlying facts? Was there water, was there not water?

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Speaker 8: How much water was there?

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Speaker 15: Was there?

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Speaker 8: Food was or not food. There's a lot of conflicting

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Speaker 8: information on that, and the jury ultimately has to decide it.

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Speaker 8: But you're absolutely right there was a death. It's unfortunate,

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Speaker 8: it should not have happened. And so the defense on

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Speaker 8: this case isn't for the defendants to get off scott free.

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Speaker 8: It's to say, hey, this is criminally negligent homicide. This

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Speaker 8: was an abuse, this was neglect on the part of

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Speaker 8: appearents the guardians in this case. And so that's the

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Speaker 8: defense on it, and it's trying to show those facts.

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Speaker 8: It's showing the facts that when Daniel, the adoptive father,

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Speaker 8: the guardian found the little girl's body, that he sprayed

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Speaker 8: cold water on her body to try to bring her

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Speaker 8: tempt down.

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Speaker 1: That's a light and a dollar short. He'll spray cold

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Speaker 1: water on her body, he's probably already dead, but he

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Speaker 1: wouldn't let her have a sip of water.

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Speaker 2: See the dichotomy, the harsh dichotomy.

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Speaker 8: The difference though, is wait water on her.

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Speaker 1: Gober to save his own skin to revive her. So

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Speaker 1: maybe she wouldn't die. But when she's out there begging

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Speaker 1: for water and begging to come into the ac where

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Speaker 1: they are, that's a big n.

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Speaker 8: If the prosecution's argument is that he wanted her to die,

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Speaker 8: why would he go to any effort to try to

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Speaker 8: revive her. That's that's the point. That's not what was

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Speaker 8: going on in his head. Will be the argument of them.

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Speaker 10: She laid there on that tramplie for at least an

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Speaker 10: hour and a half to two hours before anybody ever

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Speaker 10: even found her.

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Speaker 2: WKYTTV.

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Speaker 3: Jalen Schwartz has been jumping on the trampoline in her

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Speaker 3: backyard for well over three hours now, and there seems

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Speaker 3: to be no end in sight, the temperature on the

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Speaker 3: trampoline peeking at a whopping one hundred and ten degrees.

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Speaker 3: Her adoptive parents have denied her water and food and

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Speaker 3: demanded she continue jumping until she is told to stop. Exhausted,

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Speaker 3: the little girl passes out.

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Speaker 1: What more do we know?

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Speaker 2: Will this rise to a murder case? Listen?

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Speaker 11: Daniel chores finds Jalen unresponsive on the trampoline and brings

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Speaker 11: her in the house. Schwartz claims Jalen is wheezing and

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Speaker 11: they strip her down a spray with water to cool

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Speaker 11: her down. Daniel begins doing CPR after they realize Jalen

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Speaker 11: no longer has a pulse, and Ashley says she calls

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Speaker 11: nine one one immediately.

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Speaker 15: She was unresponsive. She was having seizures, which is what

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Speaker 15: happens when you're out in the king too much. But

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Speaker 15: she was unresponsive and then they rushed her to a

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Speaker 15: hospital which wasn't too far away.

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Speaker 1: I bet that Kenneth Trey Gaber trial attorney really hates

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Speaker 1: it when the forensic evidence disproves what his clients try

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Speaker 1: to say at the time. Don't you just hate it, Trey,

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Speaker 1: when your clients speak to police when they arrive and

437
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: then you're stuck with their statements.

438
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 8: Well, it is good advice to not talk to the

439
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 8: police if you've committed a.

440
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: Crime, Trey Gobert, I'm sure you're familiar by now with

441
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: all the cases you've tried with rigor mortis.

442
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 2: Listen.

443
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 12: Police and fire personnel are called to the Schwarz home

444
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 12: shortly before two pm about an unresponsive child. Upon arrival,

445
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 12: they determine Jalen is deceased and is already showing signs

446
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 12: of rigor mortis. The scene and condition of Jalen's body

447
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 12: does not match up with the timeline. Daniel and Ashley

448
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 12: Schwarz are giving police to account for the death of

449
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 12: a seemingly healthy child.

450
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: While Kenneth Trey giber Is hurriedly trying to fabricate an

451
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: explanation as to why this eight year little girl was

452
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: already in full throws of rigor. Straight out to doctor

453
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 1: Eric Eson, renowned board certified forensic pathologist A You can

454
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: find him on Facebook at Eric august Eon doctor Eason.

455
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being with us.

456
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: Now you hear what the parents are saying, the adoptive parents.

457
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: They're claiming that Jalen started wheezing, that they strip her down,

458
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: a spray her with water to cool her down, start

459
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: doing CPR, and call nine to one one immediately.

460
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 2: So how is it nine on one?

461
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: EMTs get there in a matter of minutes, but she's

462
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 1: already in rigor. Rigor mortis the stiffening of the limbs.

463
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: It's like a two by four.

464
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: You can't bend them no matter how hard you try.

465
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: What is rigor?

466
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 2: Doctor Eson?

467
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: Does temperatures have anything to do with it setting in?

468
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: And how how long does it take to go into rigor?

469
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 16: Yes, exactly so. Temperature. Rigor, first of all, is stiffening

470
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 16: of the muscles after death. It has to do with

471
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 16: depletion of this chemical and muscle called ATP that we

472
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 16: learn about in biology class in college. In high school.

473
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 16: But anyway, temperature has a lot of an effect on

474
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 16: rigor mortis. So if you die in an environment that

475
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 16: is warm in the surrounding area, or if you're engaging

476
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 16: in a lot of physical activity when your death occurs,

477
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 16: the rigor is going to come on a whole lot

478
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 16: quicker than if you die in a cooler environment, or

479
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 16: if you die from like a natural death, just kind

480
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 16: of laying in bed. So somebody who is having a

481
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 16: seizure when they die, or they are engaged in a

482
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 16: fight or something like that, when the death occurs, the

483
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 16: rigor mortis is going to come on a whole lot quicker.

484
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 16: It's going to be a lot stronger, and then it's

485
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 16: going to take a much shorter time to start to

486
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 16: go away, because with everyone, once rigor happens, it reaches

487
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 16: a maximum point of a stiffness and then it'll slowly

488
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 16: or it'll disappear after time.

489
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: Okay, that really wasn't an answer, but I guess I

490
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: mean to give you, doctor ry Esen, some more facts.

491
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it wasn't informative.

492
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 5: It was she was in rigor.

493
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 16: She was If she was in rigor, she was dead.

494
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 16: I think you said when they called nine one one,

495
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 16: they said, we know that, well.

496
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: We know that if you're in rigor mortis and your

497
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: limbs of stiffing up like to you by four's, you're dead.

498
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 16: We know that.

499
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: I'm trying to disprove their lie that they said to

500
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: cops that now Kenneth Trey go over stuck with their

501
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: statement that hey, we just realized she was wheezing, and

502
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: we brought her in. We sprayed her down with cold water,

503
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: and then we called you. It couldn't have happened the way.

504
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: But let me give you some more data. Okay, listen

505
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 2: to this.

506
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 11: Investigators creating a timeline of events for the day, according

507
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 11: to Ashley and Daniel Shores, is such that at one PM,

508
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 11: Jalen is on the trampoline, At one fifteen pm, she's

509
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 11: playing with the family dogs, and at one thirty pm,

510
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 11: when Daniel Schwares takes out the trash, he finds her

511
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 11: unresponsive and rushes her in the house. The first officer

512
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 11: is dispatched to the house around one forty five pm,

513
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 11: and Jalen is pronounced dead bi paramedics at one fifty

514
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 11: five pm.

515
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: So, based on the Schwartz's statements, can we determine are

516
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: they telling the truth? Okay, what more do we know

517
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: about the timing?

518
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 17: Listen when first responders robbed on scene, that riga mortis

519
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 17: had already set into.

520
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 3: Her body, according to a forensic pathologist, along with Jalen

521
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 3: already presenting with rigamortis and lividity. Pictures taken at the

522
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 3: scene showed Jalen suffered sunburn after death. There were signs

523
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 3: of skin slippage, and she was already starting to decompose

524
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 3: when she was declared dead ten minutes after police are

525
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 3: dispatched to her home.

526
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: Just hearing them describe eight year old jail in that way,

527
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: I know it's true.

528
00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 2: It just makes my stomach hurt.

529
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: Now you are hearing some sound from our friends at WKYTTV.

530
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: Let's analyze what we just heard. Lin Shaw is joining me,

531
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: executive director Lynn's Warriors. Lynn, Let's analyze this. According to

532
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: a forensic pathologist, Jeling eight years old, just turned eight,

533
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: by the way, already presenting rigor and lividity. Lividity, as

534
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: you know, is when the blood in your body settles

535
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: to the lowest common point. Just think about shaking a

536
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: jug of let's just say chocolate, milk, and then the

537
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: milk on the side starts settling down. That's what happens

538
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,959
Speaker 1: to the blood in the body when you die and

539
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: your heart is no longer pumping. Let's just say you're

540
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: lying on your back, all the blood in your body

541
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: settles down to the back of your head, neck, back, buttocks,

542
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: in the back of your legs. It goes down as

543
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: it should according to the laws of gravity. So when

544
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: EMTs get there, when listen to this, rigor was in

545
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: lividity had started. I don't know how they determine this.

546
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: I guess doctor Easen can tell me Gallen suffered sunburn

547
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: after death, which tells me she laid outside in the

548
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: sun for a period of time long enough to get sunburned.

549
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: And there was skin slippage and the beginning signs of decomposition,

550
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: and all this was evident ten minutes after police were dispatched.

551
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: They were dispatched, as we heard earlier, at one forty five.

552
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: They got there and pronounced her debt at one fifty five,

553
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: and this child Linshaw was already having skin slippage. I mean,

554
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: if you're gonna have the death penalty, if and I'm

555
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: not gonna argue pro or con right. Now, that's not

556
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: my issue. Right now, this would be a great case

557
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,439
Speaker 1: for it. Skin slippage on an eight year old little

558
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: girl who apparently lays out in the yard one hundred

559
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: and ten degrees fahrenheit and gets sunburned post mortem, Lynnshaw.

560
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 13: First of all, let's start with not referring to these

561
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,439
Speaker 13: monsters as parents, adoptive parents, whatever they are. Second of all,

562
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 13: i'd i'll argue the death penalty for you, Nancy. Anybody

563
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 13: who does anything to a child, I am sorry, and

564
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 13: our Warriors book same is done to you. I am sorry.

565
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 13: That's the way we feel about that. And I want

566
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 13: to remind everybody. I'm here in New York City. The

567
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 13: minute it hits eighty five degrees, they recommend keep your

568
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 13: children indoors, keep your children in air conditioning, keep your

569
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 13: children hydrated. If you don't have an air conditioner, go

570
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 13: to one of our cooling centers. Does everybody hear what

571
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 13: we're talking about? Children jumping on trampolines in one hundred

572
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 13: and ten, maybe one hundred and fifty. This is what

573
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 13: we're arguing about. No, no, no, these are monsters, and

574
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 13: that her body by the medical professionals. Now I'm not

575
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 13: a doctor and I'm not a lawyer. What they did

576
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 13: to this child child abuse, and I want to hear

577
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 13: from her sister. I'm worried about her sister because this

578
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 13: isn't their first time that they pulled things like this. Outrage.

579
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 13: We should all be outraged.

580
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: Unacceptable crime stories with Nancy Grace dodgor airy Ason skin slippage.

581
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: By the time amts had gotten there in the ten

582
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: minutes since the parents called, she had.

583
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 16: Been dead for a while in extreme heat. That's why

584
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 16: that skin slippage is occurring. By the time that you

585
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 16: saw it on.

586
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 2: Her, Yes, what is skin slippage? How long do you

587
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 2: give it? What does it mean?

588
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a shocking fact, but I've got to

589
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: turn that into something probative or not probative. Does it

590
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: prove anything for me?

591
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 16: It's a post mortem change, and so when death occurs,

592
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 16: the skin will just start to peel itself off of

593
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 16: the body, and heat can accelerate it and it will

594
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 16: happen a whole lot quicker. But it's just one of

595
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 16: the post mortem changes that occurs, same thing as rigor

596
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 16: and lividity. Skin slippage is part of that.

597
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: You mean your skin starts coming off your body.

598
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 5: That's right.

599
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 1: What could they possibly mean, doctor Ason, that d comp

600
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: had already started.

601
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 16: She probably started having the skin discoloration that you typically

602
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 16: see with decomposition. It's called marbling, and that's where bacteria

603
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 16: starts to grow inside the body and we'll start to

604
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 16: forming the veins and causes purple green discoloration in the skin.

605
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 16: That combined with the skin slippage, it's probably what they

606
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 16: were talking about.

607
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 15: It is hot in the summer. It's Western Texas, and

608
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 15: you know, not only does it get hot, but then

609
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 15: you know, above the average temperature, sometimes you get some

610
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 15: called a heat index where it just feels hotter. We

611
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 15: have something called the humidity, and it makes the temperature

612
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 15: feel even warmer. But also it depends on what you're around.

613
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 15: If you're around things that radiate heat too, it just

614
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 15: makes it hotter. So we're not always not just talking

615
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 15: about the Texas heat here. We're talking about you know,

616
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 15: it could be upwards of one hundred and ten.

617
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: You know how many times I've driven around the minivan

618
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: with the twins singing let it Go from Frozen That

619
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: was Jellen and her sister singing let it Go In

620
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: the back of the car.

621
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: Jellen is dead.

622
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: From being forced to jump on a scorching hot trampoline

623
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: for hours on end as punishment exercise, denying food. There's

624
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: so many ways to abuse a little child. It was

625
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: never more evident than in the case of little Corey.

626
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,959
Speaker 1: Look at video evidence that we obtained. It was used

627
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: in court of her, his father, straight from Hades, forcing

628
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: the little boy six years old. This is Christopher Gregor

629
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: forcing the little boy to run and run, forcing him

630
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: back on accelerating the treadmill. At certain points, he would

631
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: pick the boy up and hold him over the treadmill

632
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: till his feet could start running again. In one moment,

633
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: he actually bites the little boy on the head. Needless

634
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: to say, Corey dies after suffering seizures from his quote

635
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: workout with Dad. Erica Miller joining me from k M

636
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: I D Big two News. Isn't it true that Jalen

637
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: went into seizures before she died?

638
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 5: She did.

639
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 17: In court.

640
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 4: The mom tried to describe it as a she was

641
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 4: playing with the dog, but the prosecuting attorneys said that

642
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 4: it was more like and and I believe the medical

643
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 4: examiners as well, that it was more likely that she

644
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 4: was having seizures, was delirious and was not in fact

645
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 4: playing with the dogs, but was lying on the ground

646
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 4: actively dying when they assumed she was playing with the dogs.

647
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: Who are these people, Eric Kameller? Why did they even

648
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: take Jaalen and her sister if all they wanted to

649
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: do is torture them? What were the other forms of

650
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: abuse on the girls?

651
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 16: Sure, Nancy.

652
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 4: They shaved their heads for a punishment because they had

653
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 4: allegedly been bullying they. I know that on Thursday, before

654
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 4: Jalen died, the girls were hit with two by fours

655
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 4: to the point that it left bruising. They were described

656
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 4: as paddles, but they were two by fours. They were

657
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 4: disciplined again on that Friday, but the little the youngest Jade,

658
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 4: I can't remember her name, but the youngest daughter. When Jade,

659
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 4: she told police that she stayed inside because she needed

660
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 4: to write lines. She was having one form of punishment,

661
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 4: and Ashley said, well, no, she wasn't.

662
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 2: They weren't being punishment.

663
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 4: She just thought she was. But that's so telling, I

664
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 4: believe because she these kids just were always suffering some

665
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 4: form of punishment or another. That's not normal. I have

666
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 4: three children It is not normal to have to punish

667
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 4: children day in and day out.

668
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 16: It just is that's not normal.

669
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 2: That is abuse.

670
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: Karen start joining me, renowned psychologist, Karen, I'm just a

671
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: trial lawyer. What is that when a person enjoys inflicting

672
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: so much pain on someone weaker or less cunning than

673
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: they are, such as a child.

674
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 14: That's somebody Nancy who really is sedition, sick and has

675
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 14: absolutely no empathy. So they're calling it punishment, but we

676
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 14: know it's domination and control, and they are really enjoying it.

677
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 14: These children aren't real to them. These children are dolls.

678
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 14: They could be anything. They could be the board that

679
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 14: they hit them with, because they are not seeing them

680
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 14: as human beings. They've been dehumanized, and they are capable

681
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 14: of actually enjoying that kind of punishment and increasing it

682
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 14: until the point where a child dies.

683
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 2: To Tray gober.

684
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: Veteran trial lawyer, partner of Lee Gobert and Rayna, they're

685
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 1: in Texas.

686
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:46,439
Speaker 2: You know, Try, I've been giving you a.

687
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 1: Hard time, but I really don't envy what you have

688
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: to do sometimes to represent people. They're not just killers,

689
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:03,760
Speaker 1: They're sadistic killers that enjoy hurting inflicting pain on somebody else.

690
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 2: Yet you believe in our.

691
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: Constitutions so strongly you go into court and fight for them.

692
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 1: It's enough to make me want to drink. And I'm

693
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: a teetotaler. Trey.

694
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, some cases are much more difficult than others, especially

695
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 8: cases that involve children, Nancy. All lawyers will tell you

696
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 8: that at the end of the day, by protecting the

697
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 8: rights of the worst of us, we protect the rights

698
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 8: of the best of us under the constitutional And that's

699
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 8: something that as lawyers we all swear of to do

700
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 8: every day. All these facts, all this bad stuff, all

701
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 8: the tragedy that occurs, it's something we wish simply wouldn't happen.

702
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 8: But at the end of the day, the prosecution has

703
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 8: the burden, and somebody has to take on the job

704
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 8: to make sure that the state carries its burden.

705
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,399
Speaker 1: Somebody has to and I guess that's somebody. It would

706
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 1: be you, Trey. With all of your good grades in

707
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 1: law school and all of.

708
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 2: Your experience in the courtroom.

709
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: Man, I'd go just be a greater at Costco before

710
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: I would represent these two.

711
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 2: But hey, that's just me. Tom Green.

712
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: Do you ever get just weary or exhausted investigating cases

713
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: like this, a little eight year old girl with skin slippage.

714
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, these cases are accumulative for investigators. They

715
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 5: really are. I can remember back in nineteen ninety two

716
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 5: when I was hired at the Sheriff's office. We had

717
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:40,439
Speaker 5: three sadistic child killers in the jail, and I worked

718
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 5: in the unit, and they were in I had to

719
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 5: feed them and supervise them and keep them safe from

720
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 5: other inmates, And just knowing what they had done takes

721
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 5: a toll on your soul. And when you have to

722
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 5: attend an autopsy or when you have to tell other

723
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 5: loved ones about what happened to a child at the

724
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 5: hand of another, lasting impression on you. It does.

725
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 1: These two will end up doing a long time behind bars.

726
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: But is it ever enough? We stop now and remember

727
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 1: an American hero, Corporal David Jones, Benton County Sheriff's Missouri,

728
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: passed away in the line of duty after forty five

729
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: years with Ellie, survived by wife turned widow, Josie, children Allison, Lindsey, Crystal, Troy, Travis,

730
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: and seventeen grands. American hero Corporal David Jones Nancy Grace

731
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friends,