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Speaker 1: Daniel Here. Before we jump into today's episode, I want

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Speaker 1: to remind you of my new book Do Aliens Speak Physics?

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Speaker 1: Comes out very soon. It's all about what it might

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Speaker 1: be like to try to talk to aliens about physics.

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Speaker 1: Sean Carroll said the book quote is lighthearted and fun,

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Speaker 1: but also shows a way to think truly deeply about

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Speaker 1: what physics is and how we come to learn about it.

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Speaker 1: So go check out the book at www dot Aliensspeakphysics

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Speaker 1: dot com. Okay, on to the show.

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Speaker 2: Quick disclaimer here this episode is about polio and touches

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Speaker 2: on issues related to death and suicide. In a past episode,

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Speaker 2: we talked about what I consider to be one of

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Speaker 2: humanity's most incredible achievements, the eradication of smallpox. Let's keep

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Speaker 2: the good vibes going and talk about another massive win

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Speaker 2: for hu hmanity. How science eradicated wild polio in the

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Speaker 2: United States and many other nations around the world towards

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Speaker 2: the middle of the twentieth century. For reasons we don't

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Speaker 2: totally understand, cases of severe polio in the United States

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Speaker 2: started to rise. In nineteen forty eight, over twenty seven

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Speaker 2: thousand kids got polio, which was three times more than

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Speaker 2: the prior year. In nineteen forty nine, there were forty

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Speaker 2: two thousand cases, and by nineteen fifty two there were

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Speaker 2: fifty seven thousand cases, which included twenty one thousand cases

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Speaker 2: of paralysis and three thousand deaths. Initially, poliosymptoms are pretty

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Speaker 2: similar to cold symptoms, so for thousands of parents, every

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Speaker 2: time their child came down with cold like symptoms, they

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Speaker 2: had to wonder is this polio? But today no parent

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Speaker 2: in the United States goes to bed wondering if cold

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Speaker 2: like symptoms are actually polio. Two polio vaccines developed in

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Speaker 2: the United States paved the way to eradicating wild polio

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Speaker 2: from most of the world. Today, we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about the development of these amazing vaccines. We'll also talk

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Speaker 2: about how polio vaccine testing played a role in the

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Speaker 2: current high standards we set for things like informed consent

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Speaker 2: vaccine trials and industry standards for vaccine manufacturing and testing.

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Speaker 2: And now feels like a great time to remind everyone

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Speaker 2: to get their yearly flu vaccine. If you have questions

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Speaker 2: about vaccines, please ask your doctor. Welcome to Daniel and

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Speaker 2: Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel, I'm a particle physicist, and I'm very

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Speaker 1: grateful to biologists and to doctors.

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Speaker 2: Hello, I'm Kelly Wiener Smith. I study parasites and space,

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Speaker 2: and I am so excited that I knew pretty much

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Speaker 2: nothing about polio because I haven't had to worry about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, blissful ignores beautiful thing. So, Kelly, my question

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Speaker 1: for you today has to do with vaccines, and my

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Speaker 1: question is are you afraid of shots or can you

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Speaker 1: take like a big honkin needle in the arm without flinching.

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Speaker 2: So when I am going to answer your question, just

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Speaker 2: it's going to be a tortuous path to get there.

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Speaker 1: Are we going to start with fish guts?

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Speaker 2: No, we're going to start with organic chemistry.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's the other place Kelly's stories start.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd say it's way worse than fish guts, But

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Speaker 2: give me a dump truck full of fish guts before

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Speaker 2: an OKEM class any day.

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Speaker 1: But wow, that's fire, all right. So you're in OAKM.

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Speaker 2: So I'm in OKAM. I took it over the summer,

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Speaker 2: and I was taking it with my friends. We were

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Speaker 2: the Benzene Ring. There were six of us, the six

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Speaker 2: Garbons and a Benzene ring. And at the end of

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Speaker 2: each week there'd be an exam and we would stay

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Speaker 2: up all night staying for the exam. But every exam

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Speaker 2: that I passed, I would reward myself by getting a piercing. Oh,

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Speaker 2: and I was pretty well pierced by the end of

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Speaker 2: that summer. And so the lesson I'm trying to convey here,

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Speaker 2: or the point I'm trying to convey here, is I'm

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Speaker 2: not super worried about needles, and so I can handle shots.

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Speaker 2: It's not a big deal. In my opinion. I've had

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Speaker 2: bigger needles passed through my face, so it's not so bad.

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Speaker 2: What about you?

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Speaker 1: Will you anticipate in my next question, because I was

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Speaker 1: going to say, you don't look like you have a

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Speaker 1: lot of piercings, and so is that just a phase

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Speaker 1: and you let them close or are they piercings of

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Speaker 1: a less visible nature?

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Speaker 2: I let them close. I think at some point I

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Speaker 2: was trying to get a job where I thought they

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be appreciated, and some of them were just kind

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Speaker 2: of like you know. I decided I didn't actually look

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Speaker 2: as good with the nose ring as I thought. And

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Speaker 2: then I had the tragus, which is like the spot

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Speaker 2: right underneath your lip. Oh man, the metal back kept

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Speaker 2: rubbing my teeth and I was like, oh, I don't

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Speaker 2: like that feeling. But you know, I kept my eyebrow

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Speaker 2: ring for a while, but mostly it was a lot

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Speaker 2: of piercings in my ear. But my ear is weird.

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Speaker 2: This is way more information than anyone needs. My ear

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Speaker 2: is weird and would grow around my piercings.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: And so that was that was like less attractive and

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Speaker 2: hard to get them out at some point. So I

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Speaker 2: was like, all right, maybe this phase of my life

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Speaker 2: is done, but it might come back. Who knows.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm not afraid of shots. It's just not a

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Speaker 1: big deal to me. I mean, obviously they hurt, but

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Speaker 1: I don't flinch or whatever. But my daughter is terrified

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Speaker 1: of shots. I mean, she understands the concept obviously, and

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Speaker 1: she's into it, but she like sometimes faints when she

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Speaker 1: gets a shot. But she's also really interested in piercing,

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Speaker 1: and so I've been with her multiple times when she

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Speaker 1: has passed out after getting a piercing.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 1: And so just you know something you have to know,

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Speaker 1: make sure she's sitting down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the weirdest piercing I ever got was

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Speaker 2: the eyebrow piercing, because they like pinch your eyebrow. And

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Speaker 2: then this this person went up from the bottom up

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Speaker 2: with the needle before they put the ring in, so

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Speaker 2: you could see the like needle like going up and

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Speaker 2: you could like see it was right in front of

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Speaker 2: your eye, and I was like, Oh, that's that's maybe

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Speaker 2: a little disconcerting.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, we're not here to talk about Kelly

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Speaker 1: punching holes in her body. We're here to talk about

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Speaker 1: saving lives with vaccines. Kelly, tell us why you decided

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Speaker 1: to talk about the polio vaccine.

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Speaker 2: So I'm kind of interested in stories about people who

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Speaker 2: infect themselves with parasites on purpose. This is just sort

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Speaker 2: of like a weird thing that I'm interested in learning about.

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Speaker 2: And I had heard that everyone who made a polio

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Speaker 2: vaccine tested it on themselves first, and so I bought

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Speaker 2: an audiobook Polio, An American Story by David Oshinski, and

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Speaker 2: the story about the development of the vaccine was so fascinating.

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Speaker 2: I was like, you know what, I'm going to read

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Speaker 2: this book again. I'm going to take forty four pages

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Speaker 2: of notes, and I'm going to share the highlights with

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Speaker 2: the dKu audience, and just to make sure that I

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Speaker 2: was getting the story right. I also read Splendid Solution

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Speaker 2: Jonas Sock in The Quest of Polio by Jeffrey Krueger,

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Speaker 2: So both great stories about how polio was developed.

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Speaker 1: I love reading stories about how science happens or how

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Speaker 1: progress is made, because it's hard for us to put

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Speaker 1: ourselves in the minds of people who didn't understand the

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Speaker 1: early universe, or didn't have a solution, or didn't know

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Speaker 1: if there was a solution to vaccinations for polio, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's so important to bring us back to

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Speaker 1: those moments and understand what they were fighting against the

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Speaker 1: challenges there. Remember when Sean Carroll was on the podcast

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Speaker 1: and he said it's so important to read the original

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Speaker 1: papers because they didn't know the answers and you can

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Speaker 1: see them trying to work it out. And I think

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Speaker 1: that process is so important to illuminate and so fun

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Speaker 1: and so inspiring, right because it shows you how to

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Speaker 1: make discoveries. Well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and another lesson that the Polio story is going

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Speaker 2: to teach us that we're going to return to at

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Speaker 2: the end of the episode is that none of our

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Speaker 2: listeners are going to be surprised to learn that scientists

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Speaker 2: are humans and we make mistakes. Yeah, and there is

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Speaker 2: also some unethical decisions along the way. And so we're

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Speaker 2: going to get to one of my pet peeves, which

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Speaker 2: is when people act like because a scientist said so,

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Speaker 2: you don't have any right to ask follow up questions.

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Speaker 2: And I saw a lot of this during COVID, a

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Speaker 2: lot of you know, people posting on their Facebook page like.

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Speaker 1: The science is settled.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the science is settled. The good thing about science

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Speaker 2: is you don't have to believe in it. It's just

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Speaker 2: true or whatever. And I'm like, oh man, but like

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Speaker 2: there's different levels of evidence to support claims, and I

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Speaker 2: think you should be very willing to answer questions about

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Speaker 2: what you did and how confident you are. And the

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Speaker 2: polio story has a lot of ups and downs, and

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Speaker 2: all right, reveal some errors made along the way.

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Speaker 1: Well, before we share that whole story, we were wondering

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Speaker 1: what people already knew about the polio vaccine. So Kelly

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Speaker 1: went out there and asked folks what did they know

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Speaker 1: about the development of the polio vaccine? So think about

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Speaker 1: it for a moment. What is your understanding of the

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Speaker 1: development of the polio vaccine. Here's what's in the minds

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Speaker 1: of our listeners.

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Speaker 3: Medically, I don't know the development of the polio vaccine,

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Speaker 3: only that it worked and then it was a big deal.

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Speaker 3: I mean, millions suffered from a debilitating disease and it

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Speaker 3: essentially ended that. I mean, think about the advantages that

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Speaker 3: you've just created for society. I don't know. Vaccines are incredible.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I remember a vaccination day in kindergarten nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 4: I'm older than you, excepting now you claim your hundred

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Speaker 4: I'm still twenty eight. Lies.

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Speaker 1: I'm in my fifties.

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Speaker 5: Well, I know that was very welcome and the ginas

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Speaker 5: sulk and I seemed to saw as to whatever you

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Speaker 5: call it, and that he gave war any roots to

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Speaker 5: it so that people can get it chaply. So well

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Speaker 5: in all a good story.

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Speaker 1: My mother's from England.

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Speaker 6: When my grandfather was diagnosed with polio, my grandparents were

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Speaker 6: told it would likely kill him, but we're given the

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Speaker 6: option to try an experimental vaccine. He took it and

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Speaker 6: lived with just a slight limp to show for it.

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Speaker 2: I think it was developed in the late nineteen forties

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Speaker 2: it worked, and all to there in the US were

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Speaker 2: and still are, required to get the polio vaccine to

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Speaker 2: attend school.

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Speaker 7: I know the polio vaccine helped the world tremendously.

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Speaker 1: I think. That's all I know.

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Speaker 6: I was so knowledgeable about the polio vaccine, especially considering

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Speaker 6: that it probably saved my life and a whole lot

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Speaker 6: of other people's lives.

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Speaker 8: I know that the most commonly used polio vaccine is

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Speaker 8: an inactivated polio vaccine, which means it contains dead poliovirus.

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Speaker 8: There's all so an oral vaccine which contains weakened polio virus,

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Speaker 8: but you still have the risk of catching polio from it.

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Speaker 1: As far as I know.

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Speaker 7: So it's a vaccine against polio. Boom, that's it, podcast done.

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Speaker 7: I know there was a huge campaign in Brazil to

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Speaker 7: eradicate polio and it was a great success. The most

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Speaker 7: memorable thing I remember about this campaign was a mascot

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Speaker 7: called Zego China, something like Joseph Droplet, which is famous

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Speaker 7: up to this day.

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Speaker 5: Well, all I know is that I got it when

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Speaker 5: I was a little kid, and since then I've never

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Speaker 5: owned a.

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Speaker 6: Polo shirt at all, so it must have worked pretty well.

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Speaker 5: The idea for the vaccine came about when Louis Pasteur

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Speaker 5: was hanging out with those milkmaids.

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Speaker 3: I know that smart people get the polio vaccine, Kelly.

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Speaker 1: So you heard these answers after you did your deep

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Speaker 1: research dive, like fifty pages of notes here.

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Speaker 2: Episode I'll talk fast.

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Speaker 1: Did the listeners have sort of the same impression you

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Speaker 1: did before you did all your research.

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Speaker 2: Well, some of them knew a lot more, to be honest.

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Speaker 2: So one of the listeners mentioned that there's a killed

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Speaker 2: virus version of the vaccine and a live virus version

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Speaker 2: of the vaccine. I didn't realize there were multiple versions

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Speaker 2: of the vaccine. I was excited to hear the story

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Speaker 2: about Brazil. But I think the only thing I knew

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Speaker 2: about this vaccine was that it worked, and I didn't

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Speaker 2: have to know about polio because it worked so well.

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Speaker 2: And I think I had heard that Jonassack gave his

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Speaker 2: vaccine away for free and he has been sort of

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Speaker 2: lionized for that. Had you heard that.

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Speaker 1: Too, Yeah, I have heard that story. Yeah, I hope

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Speaker 1: that's true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's more complicated. Uh oh no, we're going to

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Speaker 2: get to it.

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Speaker 1: And so that reveals that this podcast secretly is actually

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Speaker 1: just a project to give me and Kelly excuses to

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Speaker 1: do deep dives in research and stuff we always wanted

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Speaker 1: to know about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think that should be a secret, you know.

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Speaker 2: I think our excitement about the universe is. You know,

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Speaker 2: that's part of why I love researching for this this podcast.

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Speaker 1: There is so much really cool stuff to learn. But

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Speaker 1: today we're talking about not the whole universe, just polios.

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Speaker 1: To tell us what is polio? How does it work?

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Speaker 1: It's not a preon, It's not a bacteria. Is it

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Speaker 1: a virus?

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Speaker 2: It is a virus, and it's a virus that you

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Speaker 2: can get either through droplets in the air, like if

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Speaker 2: someone sneezes or coughs, or through the We've talked about

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Speaker 2: the fecal oral route before the butt to mouth routes.

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Speaker 1: I don't like talking about the round.

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Speaker 2: That is a very delicate opinion for someone who lives

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Speaker 2: with a microbiologist who studies poop. I know.

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Speaker 1: And we just did a freezer clean out last weekend,

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Speaker 1: and boy, there was a corner of that freezer I

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Speaker 1: did not want to touch. Yeah, were in the corner.

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Speaker 1: I didn't get a definitive answer. I got to like

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Speaker 1: you don't really want to open that bag kind of

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Speaker 1: an answer anyway. So polio's a virus and it lives

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Speaker 1: in fluid bodily fluids, Does that mean that, like it

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Speaker 1: can't live outside of water if it like landed on

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Speaker 1: our surface and it dried up the polio and break

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Speaker 1: apart or something, it needs those droplets.

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Speaker 2: Well, So, because it's fecal oral, that means that, Like

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Speaker 2: you know, so if you wipe your rear end and

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Speaker 2: then you touch a surface, the virus can stay alive

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Speaker 2: on that surface for a while. And then if somebody

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Speaker 2: else comes by and they touch the same surface and

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Speaker 2: then they put their fingers in their mouth, then they

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Speaker 2: can get it that way, so it can survive in

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Speaker 2: the environment.

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Speaker 1: I like the way you made that indirect fecal table oral,

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Speaker 1: Like that's a nice intermediary there. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: It is nice if there's a step in between.

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Speaker 1: All right, So it can come in through the mouth

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Speaker 1: of the nose, and then where does it go in the.

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Speaker 2: Body, So it can go to your gut and start

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Speaker 2: replicating in your gut, it can go to your lymph

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Speaker 2: nodes and start replicating in your lymph nodes. And for

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Speaker 2: a lot of people, actually they get pretty lucky and

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Speaker 2: this replication sort of stops there, your immune system gets

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Speaker 2: it under control. Some people don't even realize they have polio, really,

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Speaker 2: and that's actually the majority of people don't realize they

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Speaker 2: have polio, like they don't have bad symptoms.

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Speaker 1: So it might be that a lot of people have

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Speaker 1: had polio and didn't know.

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Speaker 2: It eighty years ago. Yes, yeah, but yeah in the past, yeah,

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Speaker 2: but not now.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Fascinating.

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Speaker 2: And so for that small subset of people who are

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Speaker 2: super unlucky, the virus keeps replicating and gets into the bloodstream.

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Speaker 2: And then once it gets into the blood stream, it

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Speaker 2: moves to the nerves and it can kill some nerves.

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Speaker 2: And so a lot of times it will kill nerves

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Speaker 2: that go to your legs or your arms, And so

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Speaker 2: you'll wake up and discover you can't use an appendage,

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Speaker 2: or sometimes you'll wake up and discover you can't use

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Speaker 2: multiple appendages.

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Speaker 1: It's that sudden that you just like go to sleep

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Speaker 1: being able to walk, and you wake up paralyzed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So when Franklin delan Or Roosevelt got it, he

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Speaker 2: went to bed feeling kind of like he had the

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Speaker 2: cold or like a flu. And then the next morning

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Speaker 2: his legs started to feel kind of numbed and like

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Speaker 2: he couldn't really use it, and then on the way

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Speaker 2: to the bathroom he fell over and was paralyzed. So

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Speaker 2: it's pretty quick.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, that is terrifying.

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Speaker 2: I know, I don't But even more terrifying is that

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Speaker 2: it can go after a part of your brain stem

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Speaker 2: that controls the muscles that are important for breathing. And

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Speaker 2: so the way you breathe is, you know, you have

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Speaker 2: a diaphragm that goes up and down, and as it

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Speaker 2: goes up and down, it changes the pressure in your

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Speaker 2: lungs and pulls air into your lungs and pushes the

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Speaker 2: air out of your lungs. So when your diaphragm isn't working,

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Speaker 2: you can't breathe.

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Speaker 1: Breathing's kind of important, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a major cause of death from the disease.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, And if you caught it fast enough, you

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Speaker 2: could get put in an iron lung, and the iron

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Speaker 2: lung it has a change in pressure inside that sort

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Speaker 2: of does the job of the diaphragm, and so it

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Speaker 2: breathes for you. But it means you have no control

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Speaker 2: over your breathing, which makes it hard to talk, it

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Speaker 2: makes it hard to eat because you're just on the

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Speaker 2: timer of the iron lung. And some people could stay

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Speaker 2: in the iron lung for a little while and they

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Speaker 2: got better and they'd get.

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Speaker 1: Out they got better, meaning you can recover control of

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Speaker 1: your nerves.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think in some cases your nerves will

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Speaker 2: like grow back, or you know, your body will sort

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Speaker 2: of rewire things, but that's not always the case. Plenty

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Speaker 2: of people were pair for their entire lives, and some

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Speaker 2: people stayed in an iron lung for their entire life,

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Speaker 2: for their entire life.

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Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, yeah, I mean I've seen pictures of these things.

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Speaker 1: It's basically like a head sticking out of a wall, right,

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Speaker 1: and the rest of your body's just like inside this tube. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and that's you.

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Speaker 2: Just live like that, yeah, right, and if like you know,

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Speaker 2: if your nose is itchy, you can't scratch it. Like

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Speaker 2: Mary Roach had this story where she in her most

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Speaker 2: recent book, Irreplaceable You, which highly recommend and you should

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Speaker 2: check out our episode with Mary Roach. Anyway, she got

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Speaker 2: in an iron lung to see what it was like,

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Speaker 2: and she said, like the second you get in there,

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Speaker 2: you want to scratch your face, but you can't because

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Speaker 2: you can't get your hands out of the tube that

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Speaker 2: you're in. And she said that she was in there

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Speaker 2: for like five minutes and it felt like hours, and

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Speaker 2: it was like a very very uncomfortable experience, and she

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Speaker 2: wanted to get out like right away.

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Speaker 1: But there are people who spent like decades in those things. Yes,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, wow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so, as we've discussed, this happened pretty quickly

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Speaker 2: and so and a lot of times the symptoms started

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Speaker 2: as sort of like a cold or a flu, and

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Speaker 2: often it would hit kids. So can you imagine like

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Speaker 2: when your kids in first grade, all the times that

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Speaker 2: they came home with cold or flu like symptoms, and

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Speaker 2: every time that happened, having to worry like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: is this polio? Like my kids were constantly snotty for

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Speaker 2: like kindergarten, first grade, second grade. I'd like just never

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Speaker 2: would have slept for those years me either.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a worrier, So anything that goes wrong,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, is this the end? Is it all

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Speaker 1: coming crashing down?

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Speaker 4: Yep?

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Speaker 1: And so to have a real reason to worry every

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Speaker 1: time your kid gets a cold, yeah, I would be

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Speaker 1: like checking on them in the middle of the night

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Speaker 1: every hour. Though. I guess there's nothing you can do, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, is there something you can do if they

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Speaker 1: catch it? Can they Is there an intervention or something?

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Speaker 2: No, there wasn't like a medication or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: You know, the best you can do is make sure

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Speaker 2: that you're at the hospital if your kiddo is going

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Speaker 2: to need the iron lung so you can get them

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Speaker 2: in there right away.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. And one of the weird things about

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Speaker 2: this illness is that, you know, we know that this

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Speaker 2: illness has been running through the human pop for a

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Speaker 2: really long time, but most of the time it didn't

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Speaker 2: produce really bad symptoms. But then in the nineteen forties

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Speaker 2: and into the nineteen fifties, suddenly a lot more cases

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Speaker 2: of paralytic polio started happening. Wow, And we kind of

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Speaker 2: stopped studying polio after we got a vaccine, so we

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Speaker 2: don't really understand why this is the case. But in

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Speaker 2: nineteen forty eight there were almost twenty eight thousand kids

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Speaker 2: who got polio, which was three times more than the

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Speaker 2: prior year, And in nineteen forty nine it was forty

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Speaker 2: two thousand cases, and in nineteen fifty two it was

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Speaker 2: fifty seven thousand cases. Twenty one thousand of those kids

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Speaker 2: got paralyzed and three thousand of them died. So we're

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Speaker 2: I mean, to be fair, we're not talking millions of deaths.

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Speaker 2: But still, like you know, twenty one thousand kids being

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Speaker 2: paralyzed is nothing to sneeze at if it's happening for

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Speaker 2: one year in the United States.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it made a big impact on that generation.

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Speaker 1: I think anybody who knows people that from that generation

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Speaker 1: has met somebody impacted by polio. My teacher in fifth

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Speaker 1: grade walked with crutches and didn't have complete use of

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Speaker 1: his legs because he had polio as a kid.

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Speaker 2: Now, I have never met anyone who has shared a

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Speaker 2: polio's story with me. I think we're moving far enough

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Speaker 2: away from when the vaccine was developed that it's rarer

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Speaker 2: and rarer to hear those stories. But certainly it was

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Speaker 2: common in the fifties.

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Speaker 1: Didn't Mitch McConnell have polio? I mean, I think he's

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Speaker 1: like five hundred years old. Yeah, Yeah, Mitch McConnell is

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Speaker 1: a polio survivor. Wow, his upper left leg was paralyzed.

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Speaker 2: Huh, Well, he was one of the lucky ones who

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Speaker 2: made it through.

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Speaker 1: So do we understand now why this started to ramp up?

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Speaker 1: Was there some like mutation in the virus or a

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Speaker 1: change in the environmental situation or.

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Speaker 2: As far as I know, we don't know. We kinda

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Speaker 2: we felt like we licked polio and so we moved

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Speaker 2: on to other things, which makes sense. But it would,

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Speaker 2: you know, still be interesting to know and interesting to

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Speaker 2: understand because you know, there could be other viruses that

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Speaker 2: might mutate that we should be like keeping an eye

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Speaker 2: on if we understood why this happened.

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Speaker 1: Are there silly conspiracies based on like random correlations, like

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Speaker 1: that's when rock and roll started to spread across the

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Speaker 1: country or something.

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Speaker 2: There were a lot of crazy conspiracy theories about how

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Speaker 2: polio was transmitted. For example, a lot of people thought

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Speaker 2: it had to do with cats, so thousands of cats

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Speaker 2: in New York City got killed. I oh, so there.

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Speaker 2: You know, there were plenty of conspiracy theories. But to

439
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,720
Speaker 2: be honest, I didn't look too much into why I

440
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,360
Speaker 2: didn't look for conspiracy theories. They're so easy to find

441
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:24,440
Speaker 2: most of the time, all.

442
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,120
Speaker 1: Right, And so at this point we have vaccines already

443
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 1: for other diseases, right, So it must have been like

444
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,640
Speaker 1: on the radar, like, let's get a vaccine for polio.

445
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so our early research into polio unfortunately set

446
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 2: us on kind of the wrong track. So there was

447
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,199
Speaker 2: a guy named Simon Flexner at the Rockefeller Institute and

448
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,520
Speaker 2: he was trying to infect Reesis monkeys to understand how

449
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 2: the virus is transmitted. But one of the hard things

450
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,880
Speaker 2: about studying human diseases in other animals is that sometimes

451
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 2: it works different in those animals, and so in the

452
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,919
Speaker 2: Reesis monkeys, the way you got them infected was you

453
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,600
Speaker 2: swabbed their nasal passage and essentially you were sending the

454
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 2: virus like really close to the nervous system. And so

455
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,919
Speaker 2: the Reesis monkey's got polio, but if you put it

456
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,879
Speaker 2: in their mouth and had them swallow it, they didn't.

457
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 2: And so there was this idea that the only way

458
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,400
Speaker 2: polio could get to people is if it went directly

459
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,199
Speaker 2: into the nervous system, and that you couldn't get it

460
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 2: by ingesting it. And that's bad for a couple of reasons.

461
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 2: So one it's throwing off your understanding of how the

462
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,439
Speaker 2: disease is actually transmitted, which means public health measures are

463
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 2: harder to create. And the other thing is it suggests

464
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,680
Speaker 2: that the virus is never passing through the bloodstream and

465
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 2: that is your best chance at hitting it with your

466
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 2: immune system. So if you're going to have a vaccine,

467
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 2: it's probably going to create antibodies that will be in

468
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,680
Speaker 2: your bloodstream. And if the virus is never in the bloodstream,

469
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 2: how's your body gonna attack it?

470
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 1: All Right? So now you've questioned your immune system is

471
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,879
Speaker 1: only in the blood or is that where most of

472
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 1: it is?

473
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 2: Or what your immune system is in lots of places.

474
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 2: But my understanding is that the strongest part of the

475
00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 2: immune system, and the part of the immune system that

476
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 2: gets act devated by vaccines, tends to be in the blood.

477
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, And since we're doing an immune system primer, what

478
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 1: is an antibody exactly? Is it one of these crazy

479
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,480
Speaker 1: white blood cells that you see on those videos like

480
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,400
Speaker 1: searching around and killing bacteria?

481
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,479
Speaker 2: Ah? No, not quite. So your immune system makes an

482
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 2: antibody when it encounters a pathogen for the first time.

483
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 2: And what the antibody does, it's like a protein and

484
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 2: it binds to the pathogen. And one of the things

485
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 2: that it does is it keeps the pathogen from, for example,

486
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 2: getting into a cell. So this could keep polio from

487
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 2: getting into a nervous system cell because it's essentially like

488
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 2: blocking it from doing anything that it wants. Another thing

489
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 2: that it does is it flags the pathogens so that

490
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 2: those white blood cells can then find it. So it

491
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 2: essentially is like white blood cells over here, I've got something.

492
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 2: And so you make antibodies that are specific to different

493
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 2: kinds of pathogens. So if your body encounters the poliovirus,

494
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 2: it will create antibodies that remember the poliovirus. And so

495
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 2: the next time you encounter polio, your immune system is

496
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 2: ready to attack it right off of the bat.

497
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 1: And you say, remember, And that makes me think of like,

498
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 1: you know, I remember somebody's face, and I have no

499
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 1: idea how that works inside the brain. How does it

500
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 1: work for the immune system. Is it like it builds

501
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: some protein which latches onto the something on the surface

502
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: of that thing. I'm totally guessing here. How does it work?

503
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 2: Yes, So I think you are the amount of antibodies

504
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 2: that you have for a specific pathogen does kind of

505
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 2: go down over time. And like you may have had

506
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: the experience where you go to get a booster vaccine.

507
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 2: And so sometimes your body does seem to sort of

508
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 2: forget if it hasn't seen something for a while, and

509
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 2: so you're essentially just reminding your immune system like, hey,

510
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 2: this is a bad thing. You should be prepared. And

511
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 2: it's not like it always has loads of antibodies for

512
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 2: all pathogens that could possibly encounter, but there's some of

513
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 2: them in there, and then the number of them can

514
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 2: be rapidly increased if the pathogen is encountered.

515
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,679
Speaker 1: Again, I see, And so you're saying remember and forget.

516
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,360
Speaker 1: It's sort of like anthropomorphizing our immune system. Really, it's

517
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: like do you have a bunch of antibodies for this

518
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: or do you not?

519
00:23:58,600 --> 00:23:59,199
Speaker 2: Absolutely?

520
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, all right. And so it's a big

521
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: challenge to develop a vaccine for something if it doesn't

522
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: go through the blood I, which just like bypasses our

523
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: major defense system. So what does that mean about developing

524
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: a vaccine? What else can we do?

525
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 2: Well? So it turns out that Simon Flexner, because he

526
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 2: had studied Reesei's monkeys, he thought it never went through

527
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 2: the blood. But he was wrong.

528
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 1: He was wrong.

529
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 2: He was wrong, and he was wrong because he was

530
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: studying monkeys and polio is different in riesis monkeys than

531
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 2: it is in humans. In those monkeys, it can only

532
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 2: get in through the nose if you put it really

533
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 2: close to the nervous system. But in humans, we can

534
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: get it through our mouth and then it goes into

535
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: our stomach and into our lymph nodes, and then it

536
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 2: goes into our blood before it goes to the nerves.

537
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 2: So you do have a shot. But for a long

538
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 2: time we were all sort of thrown off track by

539
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 2: this research that didn't quite get it right because the

540
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 2: animal model set us on the wrong track.

541
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: All right, So bad news for the recis monkeys, but

542
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: good news for humans.

543
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 2: So eventually good news when we figure it out.

544
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: Where we figure it out. Yeah, all right, so let's

545
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 1: take a break. Can we come back. We'll hear more

546
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: of the saga of how we developed a polio vaccines,

547
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: the twists that turns the ups the downs. Get your

548
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: popcorn and get some tissues because it's gonna get emotional.

549
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: All right, we're back, and we're telling a story of

550
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: how we developed the polio vaccine. Kelly, what is the

551
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: next step in this story?

552
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: Well, you know, like so many scientific endeavors. The next

553
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: step is get the money, because it's expensive to do science.

554
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: And the story for how the vaccine got funded starts

555
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: with Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who in nineteen twenty one, at

556
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: the age of thirty nine, got polio himself and his

557
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 2: legs were paralyzed. In nineteen twenty four, he hears that

558
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,719
Speaker 2: this person went to these nice warm springs, and by

559
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: going in the warm springs and moving his body around

560
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 2: in the springs, he was able to walk again. Oh,

561
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 2: and FDR was like, Wow, what that's great, I'm gonna go.

562
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 2: And so he goes, and he falls in love with

563
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: the place. He feels like, actually he can move a

564
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 2: little bit better in the warm strings. That might have

565
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 2: been a placebo effect, but also it's just sort of

566
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 2: nice to have a lot of your body supported by

567
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: the water, and the warm water probably felt pretty good.

568
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: Hot tubs are fun, they sure.

569
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 2: Are, yes, And so he decides, you know what, I

570
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: love this place. I'm gonna buy it.

571
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:30,479
Speaker 1: Wait, I'm gonna buy it.

572
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: I'm gonna buy it. Yeah. He came from a rich family,

573
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 2: so he was like, I'm gonna buy it.

574
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: I'm not just enjoying the hot tubs. I'm in the

575
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: hot tub business now, Wow cool.

576
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so he buys it, but he buys it

577
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 2: and tries to make it a place where lots of

578
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 2: polio folks can go oka. And so he will sometimes

579
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,239
Speaker 2: even charge people less if they have polio and they

580
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 2: want to come to the warm springs but they can't

581
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 2: afford to. And that's great, but he's having trouble making money,

582
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: one because he's giving people all these discounts, and two

583
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 2: because it turns out people who don't have polio are

584
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 2: worried about getting into the water with people who do

585
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,719
Speaker 2: have polio because we don't know how it's transmitted. And

586
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: so this place is financially going down the tubes.

587
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: Comes soak in hot disease water doesn't really work.

588
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 2: It turns out, yeah, well right, yes, that's right. You know,

589
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: for these patients, the polio had passed through their body.

590
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 2: They were still paralyzed, but they almost certainly weren't shedding

591
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: virus anymore. So it probably was safe. But you know,

592
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: stigma being what it is, people were staying away.

593
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to slip into polio soup anyway.

594
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right. So in nineteen twenty eight, FDR

595
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 2: becomes New York Governor, and in nineteen thirty two he

596
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 2: becomes pregnant. Pregnant, oh my god. In nineteen thirty two.

597
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: He becomes accomplishment.

598
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's right. Who knew polio was the

599
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 2: cue anyway? All right, So in nineteen thirty two he

600
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 2: becomes president and he no longer has time to run

601
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: warm Springs, and so his work colleague, Basil O'Connor, takes

602
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 2: over and he's trying to figure out how he's going

603
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 2: to take this financial disaster and turn it around, and

604
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: he essentially starts a campaign that's sort of focused on

605
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 2: FDR where he says, hey, let's start to raise money

606
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 2: for polio by having like big gala balls, And eventually

607
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: he brings in famous actors and actresses to try to

608
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: raise money, and this becomes the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis,

609
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 2: which ultimately becomes the March of Dimes, which I think

610
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 2: a lot of people have heard of. Ye, And this

611
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 2: is why FDR's face is on the dime. Oh because this, yeah,

612
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: this became like a super popular thing. Okay, well, they've

613
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 2: raised loads of money. A lot of their money was

614
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: spent on helping to care for people who were paralyzed,

615
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: and so they offered a lot of support for polio victims,

616
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 2: but they also saved a bunch of money for research,

617
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 2: and so this is how the research is going to

618
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:48,479
Speaker 2: get funded.

619
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: So if you're out there and you're a disease and

620
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: you're listening, it's a bad idea to infect a white

621
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: guy who becomes really important, because those are the diseases

622
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: that get attention.

623
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 2: I wish that that were otherwise, but no, you're right,

624
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: And in fact, there's a pretty good argument that you

625
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: could make that polio in particular was getting a lot

626
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 2: of attention because it tended to hit the middle class,

627
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 2: and so there was this idea that maybe because the

628
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: middle class were living in like super sanitary environments, they

629
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: were more susceptible to polio. But this was a disease

630
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: of like upper middle class white people, and that is

631
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: probably part of why it got so much attention.

632
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, Unfortunately, folks in government need like a personal connection

633
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: to some kind of experience before they take action. Sometimes

634
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: it's too bad. Yeah, Anyway, it's good news that there

635
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: was a lot of research money towards developing a vaccine.

636
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: It's a bummer that FDR had to get polio for

637
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: that to happen. But then how did that research effort

638
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: kick off?

639
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 8: All?

640
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: Right?

641
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: Well, so first they had to decide what kind of

642
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: vaccines they wanted to fund, and it turned out there

643
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: were two competing camps that both felt very strongly and

644
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 2: the competing camps were live attenuated virus. So you essentially

645
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: get a wimpy version of the virus and inject that

646
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 2: into peace people, or a killed virus where you kill

647
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 2: the virus before you inject it into people, but you

648
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: make sure that you haven't like totally destroyed it. You

649
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: need your immune system to still recognize it.

650
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: Okay, And did we have working examples of both in

651
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: other diseases.

652
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: Yes, The live attenuated virus was pretty common at the time,

653
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 2: and it was thought that that was the best way

654
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: to make vaccines. But Jonassock, early in his career, is

655
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: going to get experience working on a killed version of

656
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 2: the influenza virus. Oh, and he's one of the people

657
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: who helps develop the first flu virus, and that kind

658
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: of convinces him that killed viruses are the way to go.

659
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: But there's a couple problems. So the live virus people

660
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 2: argue that a killed virus will never stimulate the immune

661
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 2: system as well, and so you might get weaker immunity

662
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 2: or immunity that fails more quickly. And they're concerned that

663
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: it's going to be really hard to be sure you've

664
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: always killed all of the virus, Like if you know,

665
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: you've got a batch of virus that is alive, and

666
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 2: then usually what happened is they put formulin a formaldehyde

667
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: in there. How can you be sure that it got

668
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: to every single virus particle. How can you be sure

669
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 2: you're not going to give people polio?

670
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: Oh my god, imagine injecting polio into some kid. That'd

671
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: be terrible.

672
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, hang on, we're going to get there. And so, yeah,

673
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: I know, it's it's a sad story. And so the

674
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 2: problem with the live attenuated virus is that viruses mutate,

675
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: and so a virus that has been made sort of

676
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 2: wimpy over time can mutate and go back to being

677
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: really bad. And when you make a live attenuated virus,

678
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: people shed that virus and it gets into the environment,

679
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: and so anywhere people are defecating, you've now got this

680
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 2: polio virus in the environment, and you can't really control

681
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 2: where it goes and what it does.

682
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: Yeahs, both of these seem like bad ideas. Now, Kelly,

683
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: you've got me almost over the.

684
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 2: Okay. The lesson at the end is going to be

685
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: that we have really good protocols for killing viruses now,

686
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: and it's been going well for like fifty or sixty years.

687
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 2: There have been no mistakes as far as I know.

688
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: All Right, So what were some of the early tests?

689
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: How did they go?

690
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 2: Okay? So, one of the early trials is called the

691
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 2: Park Brodie vaccine, and this is named after the two

692
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: scientists who worked on it, and this was around nineteen

693
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 2: thirty four, and they essentially infect monkeys with polio, grind

694
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: up their nervous tissue, and add a little bit of formalin,

695
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 2: hoping the formulin will kill the virus. And they first

696
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 2: give it to twenty monkeys, and the monkeys make antibodies

697
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: to polio, which suggests it works. And then they try

698
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: the vaccine on themselves and it goes pretty well.

699
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: They gave the vaccine to themselves.

700
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: They did give the vaccine to themselves. They were pretty confident.

701
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: Wow, okay.

702
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: And then they give it to twelve kids and it

703
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: goes okay. Okay, and so they say, hey, we've got

704
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 2: a safe polio vaccine, and they start scaling things up

705
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,479
Speaker 2: really quickly, because everybody really wants a polio vaccine, right

706
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 2: and so as soon as there's like evidence that you've

707
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: got something that works, people start scaling up. But the

708
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 2: problem is it wasn't really safe and it might not

709
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: have been protecting against polio.

710
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: So but before they scaled up, they must have had

711
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: some evidence that it was working. That was the evidence,

712
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: just that it was creating antibodies in the humans, and

713
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean necessarily that it's protecting against polio. Having

714
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: antibodies isn't enough.

715
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: One of the lessons we're going to learn from this

716
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: is that there hadn't been enough basic research before they

717
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: started making the vaccine. And it turns out there's three

718
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 2: types of polio, not just one, and so you can

719
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 2: protect against one type, but someone can still die or

720
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 2: get paralyzed by some of the other types I see,

721
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 2: and so they didn't have complete protection. And then the

722
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 2: other problem was we didn't know at the time that

723
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people who will have very strong

724
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: immune system reactions to monkey nervous tissue, and so some

725
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 2: of the nervous system cells were still in the vaccine,

726
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: and people had like massive abscesses and their whole body

727
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 2: would be inflamed. And kids were getting super sick from

728
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 2: this vaccine and it was because of the monkey cells.

729
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 2: At the same time, this guy Comer is making another vaccine,

730
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 2: but this one is a live virus vaccine with the

731
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 2: wimpy version of the virus. This was in nineteen thirty five.

732
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 2: He also vaccinates himself. He vaccinates his two kids. Oh

733
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: my gosh, and so he must have been confident. And

734
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: then he vaccinates twenty three other kids whose kids are

735
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: these kids? Right?

736
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,919
Speaker 1: So sometimes treat jab jab.

737
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 7: Oh.

738
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 2: You know, I if somebody confidently told me I can

739
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 2: protect your kid from polio, there's some chance I'd be like, like,

740
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want my kid to be the first one

741
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 2: in line. Yeah, but I can imagine why he was

742
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 2: able to find twenty three kids.

743
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: Well, it's a terrible decision to make, like do you

744
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: maybe take this vaccine that protects your kids or do

745
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: you not take it? And then they're still risking their lives, right,

746
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 1: this risks either way.

747
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, there absolutely are. But he then goes on to

748
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: vaccinate ten thousand kids. Wow, so a pretty big trial.

749
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 2: And at least a dozen kids get paralytic polio from

750
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 2: his vaccine and nine of them die.

751
00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

752
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so they're there's a scientific conference where the

753
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 2: Park Brody vaccine and the Comer vaccine are discussed, and

754
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 2: it's a bunch of polio scientists and at the end,

755
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: essentially Colmer gets accused of murder by one of the

756
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: other scientists and he says, gentlemen, this is one time

757
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 2: I wish the floor would open up and swallow me.

758
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: Oh my god. He must have felt terrible.

759
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 2: He felt horrible. And Brody dies at age thirty six

760
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: or something of a heart attack. There's some argument that

761
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: maybe it was he brought the heart attack on, you know, purposefully.

762
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: But anyway, really horrible episode for everyone involved. And the

763
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: lesson they end up taking away from this is that

764
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 2: we need a lot more basic research.

765
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: And these guys were all acting in good faith.

766
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 6: Right.

767
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: Maybe they rushed a little bit, maybe they got unlucky,

768
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: but they were trying to.

769
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 2: Do good Yeah. Yeah, And you know, I think that

770
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 2: Comer who tested the vaccine on his kids, he must

771
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 2: have thought he had the solution, or he didn't like

772
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 2: his kids.

773
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 1: Oh wow, one or the other. I was trying to say,

774
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: these people are not monsters, they're not villains. But you're like,

775
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: maybe he hates it's his children.

776
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 2: No, I'm just joking. They're not monsters like they really,

777
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: no doubt part of them was thinking, I will be

778
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 2: a really big deal if I soalve this polio thing.

779
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: Right.

780
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: I can't imagine that that wasn't on their minds, but

781
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 2: I do genuinely believe the fact that they tested it

782
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 2: on themselves first, they tested it on their kids, that

783
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: they really they were trying to save lives. I think

784
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 2: their intentions were good, but they rushed into it and

785
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: they didn't realize how little we knew.

786
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: I think, well, it's a tragedy either way it is.

787
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: So then we did a bunch of basic research to

788
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: understand polio and the immune system better. How did that

789
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: help shape the next step in the vaccine story.

790
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the next thing that we wanted to do

791
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 2: was work on figuring out how many types of polio

792
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 2: there are. So it became clear to us that that

793
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 2: is a question we didn't really have a good answer to.

794
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 2: And this is where Jonas Sack comes in. So I

795
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 2: think a lot of people have heard of Sock. He's,

796
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,800
Speaker 2: you know, a fairly famous scientist. His family were Jewish

797
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 2: immigrants from Russia who moved to New York City.

798
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: Yay scientists immigrants, yayay.

799
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: Oh, there's a lot of stories of scientists' immigrants here.

800
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 2: They're like, we have a lot of immigrants to thank

801
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 2: for protection against polio.

802
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: It's almost like we should be welcoming smart, hardworking people

803
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 1: into our country, especially if they bring expertise and want

804
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: to help us.

805
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think you and I try to

806
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 2: not be political on the show very often.

807
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: I don't think that's political. I don't think that's just

808
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: common sense.

809
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 2: I am one hundred percent behind you. Yes, I agree.

810
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 2: This is a small subset of the many immigrants who

811
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,479
Speaker 2: have made our country better. So, as we mentioned, Slock

812
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 2: had some experience working on the flu vaccine, which was

813
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 2: a killed virus vaccine. He did that at the University

814
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 2: of Michigan with an advisor who we're going to hear

815
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 2: about later, Thomas Francis Junior. But then he starts his

816
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: own lab at the University of Pittsburgh, and when he's

817
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 2: at the University of Pittsburgh, he meets a representative for

818
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 2: the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis. This is the funding

819
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: agency we were talking about before, and they're like, hey, look,

820
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 2: you're starting up a lab. You clearly need a lot

821
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 2: of equipment and some extra space. What if we gave

822
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 2: you a bunch of money to try to figure out

823
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 2: how many types of poliovirus there are? And he was like,

824
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 2: I need money. That's I'm in. And so he starts

825
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 2: typing polio and he works on this for two years,

826
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 2: from forty nine to fifty one, and he confirms that

827
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 2: there are three types. The first type is the most common,

828
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 2: and it's the most likely to lead to paralysis. The

829
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: second type tends to lead to asymptomatic cases, but sometimes

830
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: it can still paralyze the unlucky. And type three is

831
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: the most rare, but it's also the most likely to

832
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 2: go after your brain stem and put you in an

833
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 2: iron lung or kill you. Oh boy, Yeah, so you

834
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 2: want protection from all three of those?

835
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:34,720
Speaker 1: I certainly do, yes.

836
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 2: Okay. So around this time there are some other really

837
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,439
Speaker 2: exciting advances, one of them being that we figure out

838
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: how to grow the virus in monkey kidney cells in

839
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 2: dishes rather than nervous system cells. And so now we're

840
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: in a position where if we need to grow up

841
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 2: this virus to make vaccines, we don't have to be

842
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: doing it in monkey nervous systems anymore, and we don't

843
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 2: have to worry about that horrible reaction. The first set

844
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: of kids had key nervous system tissue.

845
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: All right, that's good news.

846
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 2: That is good news. And then a woman named Dorothy Horseman,

847
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: while doing some experiments, realizes, hey, actually polio does have

848
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: a phase where it goes through the blood. At this point,

849
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 2: we knew that sometimes it gets in through the stomach,

850
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 2: and she figures out that sometimes it goes through the

851
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: blood on the way to the nervous tissue, and she's like, hey,

852
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 2: that's good news. We might be able to make a vaccine.

853
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 2: This is promising. But then she stopped working on that question.

854
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 2: But now it's in the air that you could go

855
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 2: after it in the blood.

856
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: Okay.

857
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 2: So in nineteen fifty one, Stalk starts growing the virus

858
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 2: in the lab and he has to pick the three

859
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 2: strains that he wants to use. So he knows that

860
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 2: there's lots of different like, even if it's just type one,

861
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 2: there's still different kinds of strains, and some of them

862
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,439
Speaker 2: are worse than the others. And so what he does

863
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: is he puts the poliovirus into kidney cells. He gently

864
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: rocks it in an incubator with nutrients, gently rocks it well,

865
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 2: not like you know, not like with a senetic. I'm

866
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 2: sure he had a piece of equipment that was moving

867
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 2: it around on a tray.

868
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 1: He's whispering sweet nothings to it as it grows.

869
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 2: That's a come on, babies, you got this.

870
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: There is something kind of a cob about growing them

871
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: up just so you can kill them and then kill

872
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: all their brethren. Right, but all right, anyway, go ahead,

873
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 1: So you grow up all these polio vaccines in these

874
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: monkey kidney cells.

875
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 2: You're growing up all these polioviruses, right, I gotta say,

876
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 2: I don't feel bad for them. Yeah, So then you

877
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,879
Speaker 2: filtrate out as much as you can to make sure

878
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: you're just left with viruses. And viruses are really tiny,

879
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 2: so it's pretty easy to filter them out. But remember

880
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 2: some nervous system cells got through the last time, so

881
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: you got to be careful. And now he tries to

882
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 2: kill the viruses with formaldehyde. Formaldehyde is a super nasty

883
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 2: chemical and it's hard to do because you need to

884
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 2: be absolutely sure that every time you do this procedure

885
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 2: you kill all of the virus. Yeah, any free living

886
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: virus can really cause some trouble. Because one of the

887
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 2: types that he picks is a super virulent strain called

888
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,439
Speaker 2: the Mahoney virus, and he picks it because it would

889
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 2: be really good to have resistance against this particular strain.

890
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: It's very common, it's very lethal. So he decides to

891
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: go with it, but you got to be sure you

892
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: kill it. And so they worked really hard on this procedure.

893
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 2: And one of the things you got to be worried

894
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: about is if at any point your vile sits for

895
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 2: too long, stuff can sort of accumulate at the bottom

896
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 2: and form like clumps, and virus particles in the middle

897
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: of that clump can stay alive and kill things.

898
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: And so at this point he's using what seems like

899
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: an established procedure. You take the virus, you makes it

900
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: from aldehyde, you have a killed version of the virus.

901
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 1: There's no innovation yet, right, that's.

902
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: One hundred percent right, that's a really good observation, and

903
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 2: that is going to continue throughout a lot of this story.

904
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 2: Saul didn't really do anything one hundred percent new. He

905
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: was taking procedures that other people had used, and he

906
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 2: was the first one to sort of put them together

907
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: and get it right. That's important. Other people had not

908
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,720
Speaker 2: established a protocol that like definitely killed all the virus

909
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: every time, but Salk manages to do that.

910
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: Wow.

911
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 2: Interesting, Yes, And so he eventually gets something that's worth trying,

912
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 2: and he tries it on monkeys and it goes well.

913
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 2: And after the break, let's talk about how he starts

914
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 2: his human testing.

915
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 1: Okay, we're back, and we're talking about the development of

916
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: the polio vaccine. And so far Salk has discovered there

917
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: are three kinds of poliovirus. He's grown them up whispering

918
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: sweet nothings as he incubates them in monkey kidney cells,

919
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: and that he's mixed them with from aldehyde to kill them.

920
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: And you said this was successful in monkeys, but we've

921
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: seen that before, right.

922
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 2: Yep, we've seen that before. And so it's important to

923
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 2: note that at this stage, Sulk also injects his vaccine

924
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,399
Speaker 2: into himself and his children because he's confident that it's

925
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: going to work. But then he goes on to find

926
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 2: a larger community that he can test it on, and

927
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 2: here I feel a little bit uncomfortable. So he found

928
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 2: the D. T. Watson Home for Crippled Children. Crippled is

929
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 2: the word they were using at the time. He also

930
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 2: reaches out to the person running the Pope School for

931
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 2: Mental Defectives. Wow, really, you know from today that is

932
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 2: a pretty insulting name for the facility. But it was

933
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 2: basically children who had some intellectual disabilities who were getting

934
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: cared for there, and there was this general feeling in

935
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 2: the community that this was a good population. So there

936
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: was a sort of condescending attitude that this is some

937
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 2: way they can contribute to society by essentially being these

938
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 2: guinea pigs, and the implication there being that they weren't

939
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 2: contributing in any way otherwise, which upsets me, or that.

940
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,399
Speaker 1: There's somehow less valuable because if something goes wrong, it's

941
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: not as big a deal or something exact.

942
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 2: Yes, right. Also, you know they are in one place,

943
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 2: and we'll stay in one place for a long time,

944
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: so you can go back and test them, and you

945
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 2: know who they're interacting with. So there's a lot of

946
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,879
Speaker 2: things you can control with this population. So for better

947
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 2: or worse, he gets permission to work with both of

948
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 2: those communities. Now the DT wants at home for crippled children.

949
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 2: Most of those children who are disabled are disabled because

950
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 2: of polio. And so what he does is he figures

951
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 2: out by looking at antibodies in their blood what kind

952
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 2: of polio they encountered, and then he gives them a

953
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 2: shot of the same type of polio that he killed

954
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 2: in his lab. And he thinks this should be a

955
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 2: pretty safe way to test things, because if I didn't

956
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: kill all the virus, it's not going to be bad

957
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 2: for them because their immune system is going to be

958
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 2: able to respond. And I can see if they start

959
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 2: making even more antibodies when I give them the vaccine,

960
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 2: so they shouldn't get hurt, but they'll give us some

961
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 2: information about whether or not we're stimulating the immune system.

962
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,919
Speaker 1: All right, So they have like natural immunity already because

963
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: they've been exposed to the disease itself.

964
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 2: That's right, Okay, go that went great, actually, and it

965
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 2: went so great that they moved on to the other community.

966
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 2: And when they moved on to the other community, this

967
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 2: time they you know, these kids had no expected immunity

968
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 2: to polio. They didn't have polio. You could check that

969
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 2: with blood tests initially, and they are not sick after

970
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 2: they get the vaccine and they start making antibodies and

971
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 2: those antibody levels stay good for months. And these are

972
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: some really good results. So he's super excited.

973
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: Do you think, by the way that they got parental

974
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: approval to test it on these kids? Do you think

975
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: the parents were like, yeah, go ahead and test it

976
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: on my kid and I put in the institution or

977
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: do you think they sort of did it without asking

978
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: the parents.

979
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 2: So, in the interest of time, we skipped another vaccine

980
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:48,320
Speaker 2: story where Hillary Kaprowski did not get good parental consents

981
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: and the Lancet even jokes about his use of the

982
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 2: word quote unquote volunteer.

983
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 5: No.

984
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 2: And so there are some questions about consent that are

985
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 2: raised earlier in the vaccine story, and so Sok had

986
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 2: this on his mind. He contacted a lawyer to make

987
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: sure he had insurance to cover him in case he

988
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 2: got sued, and he worked with the state to come

989
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 2: up with great parental consent forms that were very clear

990
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 2: about all this stuff. Yeah, so some lessons were learned there,

991
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: which is good. And so he goes to write up

992
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 2: his results to publish them in the Journal of the

993
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 2: American Medical Association. But word gets out before his article

994
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 2: is published that there is a polio vaccine that could

995
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 2: start saving kids before the next polio season.

996
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:30,959
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

997
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 2: And so Salk is freaking out because everybody is like, oh,

998
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 2: you got to give us the vaccine, and he's like, no,

999
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: I'm not ready yet. This was like a small scale study.

1000
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 2: This is not ready for large scale distribution.

1001
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 1: And we learned a lesson from earlier rapid scale ups

1002
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: and that we need to be careful.

1003
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly right. And so he goes on a radio

1004
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 2: show and essentially tells the nation, Look, we don't have

1005
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 2: a vaccine yet. We have some good results, but like,

1006
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 2: I don't think we're going to have something for the

1007
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 2: next polio season. So we're working on it. But now

1008
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 2: the ball is rolling right, and the national foundation that's

1009
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 2: paid for his research is like, we need to do

1010
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 2: a massive national trial, and Sox sort of gets pulled along.

1011
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 2: And so they give the protocol for making this vaccine

1012
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 2: to some drug companies and they say, okay, start making

1013
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 2: this vaccine. Wow, And now this debate starts about how

1014
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 2: do you design this nationwide experiment that's about to happen,

1015
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 2: and the big debate is about whether you want observed

1016
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 2: controls or double blind injected controls. So here's the difference.

1017
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: For the observed controls. They wanted to open enrollment to

1018
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 2: second graders, and any second grader who wanted the shot

1019
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 2: could get it, and then they would compare polio rates

1020
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 2: in the second graders who got the shots to first

1021
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 2: and third graders, so similarly aged kids who were probably

1022
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 2: engaging in the same activities, and then compare how much

1023
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 2: those two groups got polio.

1024
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: And then this is an issue there because there could

1025
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 1: be a bias because people are selecting right, and there

1026
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: would be some confounding factor with that selection.

1027
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, there's a concern that the higher income families,

1028
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: whose risk is a little bit higher, might be more

1029
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 2: likely to enroll their kids in the trial, and low

1030
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: income populations were less likely to get paralytic polio, again

1031
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 2: for reasons we don't totally understand. But those two confounding

1032
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 2: factors made this experimental design not ideal. And so there

1033
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 2: were people who were pushing for signing up a bunch

1034
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 2: of kids who want the vaccine and giving half of

1035
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 2: them the vaccine and half of them the placebo.

1036
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: All right, so the first plan was observed controls. But

1037
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:31,720
Speaker 1: this is the other plan, that double blind study.

1038
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Salk is pretty hard against this initially because

1039
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 2: he believes his vaccine works and it's not ethical to

1040
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 2: randomly not vaccinate a bunch of kids whose parents want

1041
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 2: them to get the vaccine. And in the human way

1042
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 2: that we often find imperfect solutions to our problems, what

1043
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 2: they ended up doing was in some places they use

1044
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 2: observe controls and in other places they used this double

1045
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 2: blind placebo situation. So you end up with both kinds

1046
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: of data, and this lab at the University of Michigan

1047
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 2: collects and analyzes all the data. It was a massive

1048
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 2: record keeping wow fiasco because you you know, you couldn't

1049
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 2: let the doctors or the kids know who was getting

1050
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 2: placibo and who was getting the actual virus, because like,

1051
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 2: if you give a doctor a vile and you say

1052
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 2: this has the actual vaccine, they're going to vaccinate their

1053
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 2: family like they're humans, you know, and maybe they're not

1054
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: going to give anyone the placibo, and so you have

1055
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 2: to actually make sure nobody knows. And then someone's job

1056
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 2: was to track down every kid that died that was

1057
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 2: part of the study and figure out did they die

1058
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 2: of polio or did they could they have died of

1059
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 2: something else? So very depressing.

1060
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: And this is before computerized records, so this is like

1061
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: literally a lot of paperwork and scraps of paper and

1062
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 1: oh my gosh.

1063
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:45,320
Speaker 2: It was a massive, massive undertaking. So Thomas Francis Junior,

1064
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 2: who was Socks advisor, was the one who undertook this

1065
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 2: work and it was like, you know, years of what

1066
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 2: his lab did was crunching these data. But right before

1067
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 2: this vaccine trial was about to roll out and they

1068
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 2: were about to start, you know, giving the kids the vaccines,

1069
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 2: some of the monkeys in some of the labs where

1070
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 2: they're testing the vaccine to make sure it's safe get polio.

1071
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 2: Oh and it looks like it was just one monkey,

1072
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 2: maybe two, that actually got polio, and the system of

1073
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 2: checks worked right, so they did say, okay, there's some

1074
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 2: monkeys that got polio. We need to pull those vaccine lots.

1075
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,760
Speaker 2: There was something wrong with them. But it gets out

1076
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 2: and this celebrity gossip show has a host named Walter Winchell,

1077
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 2: and he announces that seven out of ten tested batches

1078
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 2: contain live virus. It's been killing monkeys. He starts a

1079
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 2: rumor that coffins for kids are being made and distributed

1080
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 2: around the world in advance of the release of the

1081
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 2: Salk vaccine. Sorry, not around the world, around the United States.

1082
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 2: But you know, a lot of what he said wasn't wrong.

1083
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 2: There were monkeys dying of the vaccine, but that had

1084
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 2: been our way of catching a mistake in the vaccine process.

1085
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 2: But the word was out, and it's estimated that one

1086
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,280
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand children were pulled from the trial

1087
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 2: due to this brat And in response to the monkey incident,

1088
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 2: they now have a protocol where companies have to submit

1089
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 2: eleven consecutive lots of the vaccine that they made, and

1090
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 2: every single one needs to pass testing before any are

1091
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: cleared for use. So if in a batch of eleven,

1092
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 2: one monkey dies, then all of that has to get

1093
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,439
Speaker 2: thrown out and you've got to start again. Yeah, they're

1094
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 2: trying to be extra super careful about it. So the

1095
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 2: vaccine trial happens. It's like the biggest vaccine trial in

1096
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 2: the history of the United States at the time, and

1097
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 2: it turns out if you look at the data where

1098
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 2: we had that placebo, like the best quality data, the

1099
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 2: vaccine is eighty to ninety percent effective against paralytic polio.

1100
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 2: It's sixty to seventy percent effective against type one, and

1101
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 2: ninety percent or more effective against type two and three. Wow,

1102
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,839
Speaker 2: that is amazing. That is a yeah, that's incredible. And

1103
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: so the vaccine starts getting made in massive quantities. Six

1104
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,959
Speaker 2: different drug commesies start making it. And this is where

1105
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 2: we have a problem. So it was announced that like, hey, look,

1106
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 2: we're probably not going to have enough vaccine for the

1107
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 2: oncoming polio season. We'll have it for the year after.

1108
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 2: But parents really wanted it right, and so companies started

1109
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 2: scaling up production and some mistakes were made. And this

1110
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 2: is where I can imagine there could be some anti

1111
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 2: vaxxers today that remember stories that their grandparents told them.

1112
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 2: Because there was a company called Cutter Labs from Berkeley,

1113
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,319
Speaker 2: California that had some batches of vaccine where not all

1114
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 2: the virus had been killed.

1115
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: Oh no.

1116
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 2: And so as these cases start getting reported, Cutter vaccine

1117
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 2: gets completely taken off the shelves. They actually stop all

1118
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 2: vaccines for a while until they can relook at all

1119
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,240
Speaker 2: of the different drug companies to make sure everything is okay.

1120
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 2: Cutter never ends up making more vaccine. The rest of

1121
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 2: the companies are given permission to go ahead. But now

1122
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 2: there's much stronger controls for what kind of test the

1123
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,439
Speaker 2: vaccines need to pass before they can go public. And

1124
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 2: in the last fifty maybe even sixty or seventy years,

1125
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 2: this problem has not happened again. So now that we've

1126
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 2: got these appropriate controls in place, were good. And this

1127
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 2: is when the government started stepping in. So you probably

1128
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 2: couldn't get a vaccine trial run by a foundation that

1129
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 2: isn't government run again. And so this is part of

1130
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 2: how like the CDC and the National Institute of Health

1131
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 2: sort of grew in response to this situation. Wow, so

1132
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 2: let's real quick get to so Sock sort of famously

1133
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 2: said something to the effect of you can't patent the sun.

1134
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 2: I won't patent this vaccine. But as you pointed out, Daniel,

1135
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 2: he actually hadn't produced any new procedures. He was very

1136
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 2: clever about taking pre existing procedures and being like absolutely

1137
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 2: anal retentive and creating a protocol that was failsafe. But

1138
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,720
Speaker 2: he actually probably could not have patented his vaccine anyway.

1139
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 2: Because there were no new novel procedures, and he did

1140
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 2: talk to patent lawyers and they were like, yeah, you're right,

1141
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 2: this probably isn't patentable. So it's not just that he

1142
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 2: was like a really great guy, although he was a

1143
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 2: really great guy, I think, but it also was just

1144
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 2: that like there wasn't really anything to patent there. But

1145
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 2: at the same time, there was a competing vaccine. So

1146
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 2: Sabin is a scientist who was born in Poland. In

1147
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 2: nineteen oh six, he ends up at the University of Cincinnati.

1148
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 2: He's also getting funded by the National Foundation, and he

1149
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 2: makes a vaccine with virus that he has run through

1150
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 2: animals multiple times until the virus is super weak, and

1151
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,240
Speaker 2: he does this with all three strains. But the National

1152
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 2: Foundation just finished doing this national trial for the salt vaccine.

1153
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 2: They're not going to do it again for a new

1154
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 2: vaccine when they've got one that works. And so he

1155
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 2: goes to Moscow and he and the Soviet Union in

1156
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,439
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty nine. They're like this, this vaccine looks good.

1157
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,320
Speaker 2: We like it. We're going to vaccinate ten million kids.

1158
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:54,760
Speaker 1: Wow.

1159
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 2: And so they vaccinate ten million kids and they essentially

1160
00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 2: say you have to show up at the school on

1161
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 2: this day or factory on this day, and they all

1162
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 2: get vaccinated. They decide that actually went pretty well, and

1163
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 2: so they now decide they're going to vaccinate everybody who's

1164
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 2: under twenty years old. So seventy seven million people get vaccinated.

1165
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

1166
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,359
Speaker 2: And so the Saban vaccine starts making its way back

1167
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 2: to the United States. And this is after you know,

1168
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 2: the Cutter incident where people are like, oh, maybe the

1169
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 2: Salk vaccine isn't safe anymore, and that starts to be

1170
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 2: on people's mind, and Sabin sort of capitalizes on this fear.

1171
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 2: And Saban and Sack didn't like each other at all.

1172
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 2: They were definitely, like, not necessarily racing, but definitely competing.

1173
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 2: And the Sabin vaccine ends up becoming a lot more popular,

1174
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 2: and eventually at some point people stop getting the Salt

1175
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,959
Speaker 2: vaccine and they get the Sabin vaccine instead. Oh well,

1176
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: both of these vaccines contributed in bringing the levels of

1177
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 2: polio down massively. But a problem with the Sabin vaccine,

1178
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 2: which we mentioned earlier, is that that vaccine is a

1179
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 2: live virus, and even though it's a weak version of

1180
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 2: the virus, there are parts of the world where when

1181
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 2: people get polio, what they're getting is this version that's

1182
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:07,919
Speaker 2: in the vaccine. The Saban vaccine causes polio in one

1183
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 2: out of a million doses. So this is the problem

1184
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 2: with having a live vaccine. And so at some point

1185
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 2: the United States said, look, we have so little polio,

1186
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 2: but for one out of a million people who get

1187
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 2: this polio vaccine, there's a chance they're going to get polio.

1188
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 2: We're going to switch back to the salt vaccine. So

1189
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,439
Speaker 2: after doing the Saban vaccine for a while, we switch

1190
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 2: back to SALK and now everybody gets the killed virus version,

1191
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 2: which has been safe for sixty years. So some parts

1192
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 2: of the world still have polio, like Pakistan, but we

1193
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 2: are incredibly lucky in the United States to not have

1194
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 2: to worry about it. As we mentioned at the beginning

1195
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 2: of the show. You know, I get frustrated when I

1196
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 2: hear this quote. The good thing about science is that

1197
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 2: it's true, whether or not you believe it. And it's

1198
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 2: like such a condescending attitude to give to people when

1199
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 2: there have been mistakes in the past. Right, and I

1200
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 2: still think we have a right to say, hey, you know,

1201
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 2: if your kid wants to go to public school, or

1202
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 2: if you want to be a health worker, you have

1203
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 2: to get these vaccines. I think we have a right

1204
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 2: to like mandate that kind of stuff. But I also

1205
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 2: feel like we have this massive responsibility to be super

1206
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 2: open and transparent about like what we're doing and how

1207
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 2: we made these decisions, because we've made mistakes in the past,

1208
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 2: and I think it's reasonable for people to like want

1209
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 2: to be convinced and to you know, and for you

1210
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 2: to need to make a good argument for it. Not

1211
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 2: that I think all the anti vaxxers are anti vax

1212
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 2: because they are familiar with this history, you know, the

1213
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 2: like five G from a vaccine is kind of crazy.

1214
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 2: But anyway, I think these things are complicated. What do

1215
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 2: you think?

1216
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's important that we share the process,

1217
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: that people understand how scientists come to these decisions, and

1218
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 1: also that science informs policy but doesn't dictate it. Like

1219
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 1: the questions of how do you develop a vaccine and

1220
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 1: the questions of should we inject this into children are

1221
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: different questions. One is science and what is policy. And

1222
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: I do think that's important that people out there there

1223
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 1: are educated in how science works so they understand where

1224
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: these decisions come from. Because Yeah, nobody wants to be

1225
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 1: told this is the truth and that's not the truth,

1226
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:11,919
Speaker 1: and we can't explain it to you. Shut up. That's

1227
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: not the way it should work. If sciences by the people,

1228
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 1: for the people, and of the people. And that's one

1229
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 1: reason why I think it's great we do these episodes

1230
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 1: to show people how we learn this stuff and what

1231
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: we know, what we don't know. We've got to be

1232
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 1: honest about all of that, because that's what's going to

1233
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: convince people. It's the process that people should trust, not

1234
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 1: any individual answer or result. And so we've got to

1235
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: include people in that process absolutely.

1236
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 2: Yea, amen. And also hooray I never had to worry

1237
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 2: about my kids getting polio.

1238
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 1: Yeah me either, how terrifying.

1239
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 2: Yep.

1240
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 1: And so, as I said at the top of the program, like,

1241
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 1: I am so grateful to scientists and to doctors and

1242
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 1: to everybody who's made our lives so much better and safer.

1243
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 2: Agreed, thank you all right.

1244
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 1: And thanks to everybody out there who's interested in learning

1245
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: about how the scientific process works, how peer review were,

1246
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 1: how discoveries are made, how we develop some of these

1247
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 1: life saving vaccines, and the things we learned along the way,

1248
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 1: and Thanks to Kelly as always for your patented research

1249
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 1: deep dive.

1250
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 2: Well, and thank you to the extraordinaries for giving me

1251
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,560
Speaker 2: the opportunity to read loads of stuff about topics I

1252
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 2: find fascinated.

1253
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 1: And apologies to anybody who heard the phrase fecal oral

1254
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 1: while you were having breakfast. All right, thanks everyone, Tune

1255
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: in next time.

1256
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 2: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio. We

1257
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 2: would love to hear from you, We really would.

1258
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:41,400
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1259
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 1: Extraordinary Universe.

1260
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,320
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1261
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 2: for future shows. If you contact us, we will get

1262
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 2: back to you.

1263
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 1: We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us

1264
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,800
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1265
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:57,960
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1266
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:01,840
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1267
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:03,880
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1268
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1269
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:07,600
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