Speaker 1: Today's quote is from Candice Sanchez McFarlane. I have read
Speaker 1: a lot of comments from well intentioned people with phrases
Speaker 1: like quote. I know I will never understand what it
Speaker 1: is like dot dot dot. You're right, if being a
Speaker 1: black person in America is not your lived experience, you
Speaker 1: will never understand. You don't have to. I don't understand
Speaker 1: what it is like to be an e R doctor
Speaker 1: during a global pandemic, but I do know what I
Speaker 1: can do to support them. I feel a human obligation
Speaker 1: to do more than shout at seven pm or repost
Speaker 1: articles online. I wear a mask. I actively make sure
Speaker 1: my children wear masks. I donate to causes that support
Speaker 1: their work. When people say ignorant things like the pandemic
Speaker 1: isn't real, I actively speak up and out for the
Speaker 1: people who are risking their lives every day. I don't
Speaker 1: believe the e R doctor needs me to understand what
Speaker 1: it was like to go through medical school, to take
Speaker 1: on extreme amounts of student debt, to feel the weight
Speaker 1: of responsibility when a patient's life rests in your hands,
Speaker 1: To know that you can't spend time with your family
Speaker 1: because of the work you were called to do. How
Speaker 1: could I understand, but what I do know is that
Speaker 1: there are ways within my power to support those people.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. That's all about the voice, which
Speaker 1: means it's all about power. Who has it, how we
Speaker 1: get it, how we sound when we have it. I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Samarave, and this is permission to speak, where
Speaker 1: we can throw all our best ideas about how to
Speaker 1: get ourselves heard into the pot and start. Today's guest
Speaker 1: is my friend nil Um Geet Dolly Wall. She's a
Speaker 1: social justice facilitator through the National Seed Project, which I
Speaker 1: will link to in the show notes. This means that
Speaker 1: she trains leaders and educators and now through activist organizations
Speaker 1: and through the Jane Club, which is women's core space
Speaker 1: in Hollywood that's got a very robust online program during
Speaker 1: the pandemic, so anybody around the country or world can
Speaker 1: joined by the way through places like that, she trains
Speaker 1: anyone who takes her workshops on how to do the
Speaker 1: work to make the world more just. And that's what
Speaker 1: this episode is about. How do we speak up to whom?
Speaker 1: What do we say? How do we handle how uncomfortable
Speaker 1: it feels the systems? You know, um, white supremacy patriarchy,
Speaker 1: capitalism are massive and not our fault, but we do
Speaker 1: uphold them in all kinds of like super sneaky ways,
Speaker 1: most of us without knowing it, and that's on us
Speaker 1: to go from not knowing to knowing, and then from
Speaker 1: knowing to doing to speaking to dismantling. I wanted to
Speaker 1: have Neil jeed on because she's so clear and intentional
Speaker 1: around this work, and because frankly, she's the person in
Speaker 1: my own life who offers herself professionally as a resources
Speaker 1: for all of us with all of our awkward questions
Speaker 1: and discomfort and growing pains around this work. I hope
Speaker 1: this conversation is useful. This is Neon Jeet jet Hi.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining, Thank you for joining us, Thank
Speaker 1: you for me. Okay, So we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: social justice work, which is what you do. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Samara speaking of social justice, is it okay if
Speaker 1: I begin by acknowledging the land? Yes? Please, I'd like
Speaker 1: to begin and open our time together by acknowledging the
Speaker 1: land that I'm sitting on, which is the land of
Speaker 1: the tongue of a tribe, the traditional custodians and their
Speaker 1: elders past and present. I have to begin by acknowledging
Speaker 1: and thanking my ancestors who paved the way for me
Speaker 1: to be able to take this journey. And I also
Speaker 1: have to thank my l rs and all the people
Speaker 1: who have taught me along the way. And most especially
Speaker 1: I need to thank my partner, my husband, Mark, and
Speaker 1: my sister, my best friend, my twenty. Without the two
Speaker 1: of them in particular, I don't think this work would
Speaker 1: be possible. So I really want to name that because
Speaker 1: you know, this work takes a lot of support. And
Speaker 1: my pronouns are she hear hers and thank you? Thank you.
Speaker 1: My pronouns are she hear her so as well so
Speaker 1: social justice training. Um yeah, I mean you know my
Speaker 1: path a little bit. I was an educator, I was
Speaker 1: a math teacher before and um, how I found myself
Speaker 1: doing this work is I went and got trained by
Speaker 1: the National Seed Project back in two thousand twelve, and
Speaker 1: so since then I've been leading these seminars um around
Speaker 1: helping people understand how sy stomach oppression operates. And the
Speaker 1: heart of seeds model is storytelling. So it's basically we
Speaker 1: we're really asking each other, like, are you willing to
Speaker 1: be changed by my experience? Um. And one person that
Speaker 1: comes to mind is my friend Lauren Whitney, and she
Speaker 1: made this video called when did My Black Baby Become
Speaker 1: a Threat to You? And it was in response to
Speaker 1: just the cumulative impact of all the black lives lost,
Speaker 1: but particularly I think when George Floyd was murdered. And
Speaker 1: it's a really powerful video. But again it invites us
Speaker 1: in to consider how am I going to be changed
Speaker 1: by her story? What is my responsibility? She's giving me
Speaker 1: her story, I'm holding it, what am I going to
Speaker 1: do with it? Yeah, I'm so thrilled she made that,
Speaker 1: and UM, I'll link to it in the show notes.
Speaker 1: It's also on our social feed And so now, so
Speaker 1: I've taken those workshops and kind of taking them out
Speaker 1: of an educational setting and brought them to my current
Speaker 1: place of employment, the Chain Club, and also places in
Speaker 1: which I volunteer or my activists networks, and what are
Speaker 1: the challenges when you're not working with educators anymore? But
Speaker 1: just you know whoever shows up at your workshops in
Speaker 1: these social or activism spaces. There's this great quote I love.
Speaker 1: UM it's by UH an educator. Her name is Judy Logan,
Speaker 1: and she says, close the door and change the world.
Speaker 1: So you have the opportunity in your classroom to really
Speaker 1: it's to change lives. And I think a lot of educators,
Speaker 1: I'll speak for myself that is is such a um
Speaker 1: an honor but a huge responsibility. And so I think
Speaker 1: as an educator we take it really seriously. So when
Speaker 1: you come to the work, you bring a level of
Speaker 1: vulnerability and honesty and a willingness to really kind of
Speaker 1: step into it um because you you understand what's at risk.
Speaker 1: So I think the I wouldn't say the biggest challenge,
Speaker 1: but a challenge when you transfer it outside of an
Speaker 1: education setting is that it's really hard for folks to
Speaker 1: see how they're upholding systems. That's that was hard for
Speaker 1: teachers too, but um or parents or even students. But
Speaker 1: it's particularly so when I'm saying I'm doing it in
Speaker 1: a setting like an organizing setting, where those people are
Speaker 1: coming to the table because they consider themselves to be
Speaker 1: quote unquote woke or consider themselves to be allies, and
Speaker 1: so they consider themselves to be good. And what does
Speaker 1: it mean to help people who see themselves in this
Speaker 1: through this lens through us a lens of kind of
Speaker 1: the liberal ideal of what it means to be in
Speaker 1: just relations with others and then recognizing that they still
Speaker 1: have work to do. So I would say that's a
Speaker 1: little bit more of a challenge. Yeah, I'm curious to
Speaker 1: hear for you what was your experience with it and
Speaker 1: what was challenging for you. Yeah, I mean I think
Speaker 1: you you super defined me when you said that. You know,
Speaker 1: I was telling them before we started recording that I, uh,
Speaker 1: like September ish, six months ago, eight months ago, Um,
Speaker 1: there had been a workshop that you were doing at
Speaker 1: the Jain Club, UM that I was not available for
Speaker 1: for like completely legit work reasons. But also you know,
Speaker 1: one has to wonder when what one's priorities are. Uh.
Speaker 1: It's interesting how I put that in the third person, um,
Speaker 1: but it made me wonder what my priorities were because
Speaker 1: you totally called me in. You know, you said something
Speaker 1: like noticed you weren't there at that workshop, and I felt,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, and an instant rise of defensiveness. I
Speaker 1: didn't I don't think presented to you, but inside I
Speaker 1: was like, she doesn't understand what my schedule was, like,
Speaker 1: you know. But between that and another conversation I had
Speaker 1: with a good friend of mine of color who UM
Speaker 1: was questioning and organization I was in that was too white.
Speaker 1: That happened within the same week of each other. I
Speaker 1: finally picked up white fragility because I thought, I just
Speaker 1: I actually think I'm more woke than I am quote
Speaker 1: unquote woke, and I need tools and they're out there.
Speaker 1: You know, well, thank you so much for sharing that.
Speaker 1: I think it's important. Also, UM, what I hear when
Speaker 1: I hear that is that you know, we don't we
Speaker 1: don't come to this work arrived. And though I leave
Speaker 1: these conversations, I facilitate these conversations. I'm really creating space
Speaker 1: for folks to do their work. And I'm still doing
Speaker 1: my work that I, as a South Asian Brown, they
Speaker 1: see women of color and also complicit in anti bilock racism,
Speaker 1: and it's particularly important for me to center that in
Speaker 1: my justice work and hold myself accountable, and also to
Speaker 1: name the ways in which the model minority myth has
Speaker 1: been created to uphold anti black racism. And alongside that,
Speaker 1: I also have the journey of taking a look at
Speaker 1: my own internalized racism, anti Asian racism, and how that's
Speaker 1: up to me from being in authentic and just relations
Speaker 1: with my own people. So the work never ends. And
Speaker 1: you know, I'm still learning and I have a long
Speaker 1: way to go, you know, And I think, I think
Speaker 1: that's There's this thing that my mom used to tell
Speaker 1: me when when I would talk about justice, because I
Speaker 1: would sometimes have this righteousness about my justice and my
Speaker 1: work with justice, and she would say, you know, whether
Speaker 1: you have been just to the world and those around
Speaker 1: you is not for you to determine. It will be
Speaker 1: determined in your absence. So after I'm gone, those who
Speaker 1: have left behind will look around and say, what she
Speaker 1: committed to justice? And that's really kind of centered and
Speaker 1: grounded my work to make sure it's a lifelong practice.
Speaker 1: And of course, you know, being a parent and thinking
Speaker 1: about the world I'm leaving behind for my children, and
Speaker 1: then of course as an educator, I used to call
Speaker 1: those kids my kids too, you know, the world that's
Speaker 1: for them, And so um, yeah, I think about what
Speaker 1: I heard from you too, is that you have you're
Speaker 1: you're on this journey now and there's so much more
Speaker 1: that awaits you as long as you stay committed to it. Yeah. Thanks,
Speaker 1: I am um, And and I've really been trying to
Speaker 1: you know, intentionally make this space one that's for anti
Speaker 1: racism since the start, because also you know, once you see,
Speaker 1: you can't unsee, and um, it affects everything. I mean,
Speaker 1: if we didn't have racism, we could have cured cancer
Speaker 1: right now, you know, we could have cured poverty, we
Speaker 1: could have We have no idea the world that we
Speaker 1: could be living in if we didn't have racism, if
Speaker 1: we didn't have sexism, if we didn't have you know,
Speaker 1: all these systems of oppression, what would this world be like?
Speaker 1: It makes me think of Tony Morrison's quote about how
Speaker 1: racism is just distracting. Yes, I love that quote. Yes,
Speaker 1: it just distracts us, absolutely takes up so much of
Speaker 1: our rain in our bodies. Yeah yeah, Um, I want
Speaker 1: to talk specifically about this concept of racism for anybody
Speaker 1: listening in who's relatively new to what their place is
Speaker 1: in dismantling it basically. Um, something that was a real
Speaker 1: takeaway from me from White Fragility from Robin D. Angelo's
Speaker 1: book is that, um, there's an oversimplified version of what
Speaker 1: racism is that many of us grew up with that
Speaker 1: racists are bad people. So you can't both be a
Speaker 1: good person and also do things that are racist that
Speaker 1: would break our brains, right, and so we just sort
Speaker 1: of reject all of that. And so one of the
Speaker 1: things that she introduces, and she does this you know,
Speaker 1: social social justice training work as well, right, and so
Speaker 1: one of the things that she introduces to a largely
Speaker 1: white audience so that they can start to think about
Speaker 1: this is that racism is these small acts that we
Speaker 1: do that uphold systems that you know, serve us in
Speaker 1: certain ways and sometimes you don't, even as we were
Speaker 1: just discussing, but serve us in certain ways. And I
Speaker 1: wonder if we can actually jump in and talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about that that resource that I mentioned ahead
Speaker 1: of time about how white supremacy culture shows up in
Speaker 1: our work, because this, I think is so it's so
Speaker 1: tangible when we talk about racism. One danger is, as
Speaker 1: as I just said, you know, racists are bad people,
Speaker 1: and I'm not a bad person, so I'm not the problem.
Speaker 1: That's a that's a real black and white way of
Speaker 1: thinking about it. That is that just stops us from growing.
Speaker 1: And another part of it is, okay, if we admit
Speaker 1: we are each of us racist, because we are all
Speaker 1: breathing that air and we have since we were babies.
Speaker 1: How am I racist? And then we think does that
Speaker 1: mean being mean to people who don't look like me?
Speaker 1: Because I don't have a memory of doing that, you know.
Speaker 1: And so this document that I found when I took
Speaker 1: a feminist business school course, which happened last year, So
Speaker 1: I guess that was maybe the beginning of me. Really
Speaker 1: it was an online course that was so much more
Speaker 1: um critical thinking in academia than I expected, and you know,
Speaker 1: as a real feminist course and not just a quote
Speaker 1: unquote white feminist. A lot of it was about white
Speaker 1: supremacy and the ways that we are perpetuating it in
Speaker 1: our work without realizing it for entrepreneurs, for maybe women
Speaker 1: business owners. Um, So I want to pull this up.
Speaker 1: I'm going to provide it as a resource in the
Speaker 1: show notes. But um, the Characteristics of white supremacy culture. Uh.
Speaker 1: It's by Tima Okun and Kenneth Jones, and it's part
Speaker 1: of something called Dismantling Racism, a workbook for social change groups.
Speaker 1: It says, below is a list of characteristics of white
Speaker 1: supremacy culture which show up in our organizations. So the
Speaker 1: first one is perfectionism. Yeah, can I share one under perfectionism,
Speaker 1: I think is really powerful. Yes, please, making a mistake
Speaker 1: is confused with being a mistake, doing wrong with being wrong,
Speaker 1: and I think that shows up a lot in institutions,
Speaker 1: and I think that that really undergrids white supremacy culture,
Speaker 1: because to do justice work is to acknowledge that we're
Speaker 1: doing harm, we're doing wrong, we're making mistakes. But if
Speaker 1: you have an ideal of white supremacy that's upholding your
Speaker 1: institution in the form of perfectionism, you're not even going
Speaker 1: to be able to get to it because what happens
Speaker 1: is folks come to the table and you say, hey, listen,
Speaker 1: the institution is making some mistakes, it's getting them some
Speaker 1: things wrong. And people are like, oh, well, no, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm perfect, this institution is perfect. How dare you? Are
Speaker 1: you calling me a racist? And then it becomes this
Speaker 1: debate about whether someone's good or bad. So perfectionism is
Speaker 1: directly linked to the earlier point you brought up of
Speaker 1: this good bad binary. And the question isn't whether we're
Speaker 1: good or bad. The question is to what degree are
Speaker 1: we racist? And then the question is how do we
Speaker 1: work to be anti racist? Right? How do we actually
Speaker 1: schedule in time and money and energy into improvements, Yes,
Speaker 1: it says. One of the other bullet points says, there's
Speaker 1: little time, energy, or money to put into reflection or
Speaker 1: identifying lessons learned that can improve practice us. In other words,
Speaker 1: little or no learning from mistakes. Yes, so then the
Speaker 1: only thing only choice you have is to redefine a
Speaker 1: mistake is not a mistake exactly exactly, which just takes
Speaker 1: so much energy away from I mean, that's the distraction.
Speaker 1: Takes so much energy away from actually doing the work,
Speaker 1: which you know would help people grow and change and
Speaker 1: probably improve their bottom line. Yes, well, come on, y'all's capitalism.
Speaker 1: And that connects right to the sense of urgency. So
Speaker 1: I mean, all of these uphold each other. The sense
Speaker 1: of urgency I think is, um, you know, we don't
Speaker 1: have time for this, or we do have time for it,
Speaker 1: and we have to do it right away and has
Speaker 1: to be perfect and we you know, yeah, we don't
Speaker 1: have time to be you know, inclusive, or to use
Speaker 1: a decision making process that's democratic, so you know, head
Speaker 1: down and no drama anyone. And and that's the other
Speaker 1: part of doing this work is that folks kind of
Speaker 1: expect this like kumba, Yeah, now we're all friends and
Speaker 1: we can get past this whole color thing. After you do,
Speaker 1: say like a seminar in anti bias or a seminar
Speaker 1: and racial identity U or racism or sexism or whatever
Speaker 1: it is. And the truth is you're going to be
Speaker 1: more uncomfortable afterwards than you ever were before. And how
Speaker 1: do you build that endurance for discomfort for really examining
Speaker 1: the ways in which you are complicit? And I want
Speaker 1: to say, you know, that's a discomfort that is just
Speaker 1: second nature to folks who experience that oppression well, and
Speaker 1: that connects to another one I want to call out,
Speaker 1: which is the right to comfort. Yes, I mean I
Speaker 1: was reading this thinking about the Kabinar hearings and was like, oh, right,
Speaker 1: this helps me understand stuff. The right to comfort, the
Speaker 1: belief that those with power have a right to emotional
Speaker 1: and psychological comfort, escapegoating those who cause discomfort, equating individual
Speaker 1: acts of unfairness against white people with systemic racism which
Speaker 1: daily targets people of color, the idea that you know,
Speaker 1: it goes on and on. Not everybody gets to not
Speaker 1: everybody gets to be angry in your office, right, And
Speaker 1: how that shows up in the individual sense, is that
Speaker 1: you know, someone will say, this thing happened to me
Speaker 1: in the workplace. It was racist, sexist, hetero sexist, whatever
Speaker 1: the case may be, and we won't have systemic thinking
Speaker 1: cap on will have personal or interpersonal thinking head on,
Speaker 1: so we will dismiss their experience and say, this is
Speaker 1: not systemic oppression operating. This is just that one person.
Speaker 1: They're just a little too sensitive or you know, we
Speaker 1: do all sorts of mental gymnastics. Why can't they take
Speaker 1: a joke exactly exactly? And so I mean that you're right,
Speaker 1: Kavanaugh is a perfect embodiment of that, and we the
Speaker 1: whole country got to watch it. Yeah yeah, um, okay,
Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk more about this specifically the intersections
Speaker 1: um that you're talking about here, because you know, for
Speaker 1: a lot of white ladies, we think first about the
Speaker 1: ways that we're struggling to be taken seriously. And I
Speaker 1: absolutely center that story in this podcast. That is a
Speaker 1: part of the point of this podcast. And I also
Speaker 1: want to say that I'm including immigrants here. I'm including
Speaker 1: anybody who's queer who feels like how they come across
Speaker 1: is affecting how how seriously they're taken in spaces where
Speaker 1: they would like more power than they have, and what
Speaker 1: we can learn from some of our own experiences there
Speaker 1: to equip us better to deal with racism. But we
Speaker 1: need to take a break first, because okay, we're back.
Speaker 1: So what I'm thinking about specifically with this question of intersectionality, UM,
Speaker 1: is if we can think about the ways that we
Speaker 1: have felt oppressed and start to gen only think of
Speaker 1: ourselves as oppressors, and what is that relationship? What is
Speaker 1: it to sort of like sit with that for a
Speaker 1: moment and then and then the next step is I
Speaker 1: don't know what the next step is. I don't want
Speaker 1: to say the next step, but another step is, um
Speaker 1: Neil and Jeed, I know you're interested in how white
Speaker 1: people who are sort of on this journey can call
Speaker 1: in gently enough that they're heard other white people. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So to that first piece about realizing that you uphold
Speaker 1: systems of oppression, UM, I think that the emotion that
Speaker 1: I would name is shame that comes up for a
Speaker 1: lot of people, And shame is an emotion that is,
Speaker 1: you know, shame equals I am bad, guilt, is I
Speaker 1: did something wrong, there's some agency and guilt. I can
Speaker 1: try to fix it. I can try to right or wrong.
Speaker 1: The shame is an emotion that really kind of stops
Speaker 1: you in your tracks. And what I like to remind
Speaker 1: people is that this system was built without your consent.
Speaker 1: You were placed into it without your consent. You have
Speaker 1: been programmed in condition to operate within it without your
Speaker 1: consent as children, as teens, and then as young adults.
Speaker 1: And that's by design, that is how the system is
Speaker 1: built to be. That's not to absolve people who hold
Speaker 1: privilege of their responsibility, but it's just to give a
Speaker 1: little space for some compassion and grace to say that,
Speaker 1: you know, you individually did not create the system overnight.
Speaker 1: It took hundreds of years to build it, and it's
Speaker 1: made invisible by design. So be patient with yourself, but
Speaker 1: also hold yourself accountable and use that feeling of my God,
Speaker 1: Am I causing harm to people? Are there things I'm
Speaker 1: just by walking through the world? Is my very existence
Speaker 1: a problem? People start to ask themselves these really difficult questions,
Speaker 1: And what I like to say is, you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of times in this work, it's not necessarily like
Speaker 1: arriving at the answer, it's at keeping to ask the question,
Speaker 1: continuously going down that journey that reveals another question, another question,
Speaker 1: another question I think about. Are you familiar with segments
Speaker 1: of self knowledge? So you know, there's what you know,
Speaker 1: there's what you know that you don't know, there's what
Speaker 1: you don't know you know, but my favorite is what
Speaker 1: you don't know that you don't know. So, if you
Speaker 1: are committed to being on this path of justice, of
Speaker 1: really understanding systems of oppression, the ways in which you
Speaker 1: are either oppressed under them or the ways in which
Speaker 1: you benefit under them, the intersection of all of those, right, So,
Speaker 1: how I experience racism intersects with my religion as a
Speaker 1: sick in this country where we've experienced a lot of
Speaker 1: um my communities experience love it, samophobia, xenophobia. So that's
Speaker 1: different from say, someone who is South Asian and not sick.
Speaker 1: So it's all intertwined and we're all we all have
Speaker 1: our work to do. That being said back to d
Speaker 1: k DK, which you don't know you don't know, that
Speaker 1: is the work that you're committed to. So you stay
Speaker 1: on this path and you continuously start to see my God,
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I didn't know that, and dad
Speaker 1: again is by design. So that's what I would say
Speaker 1: to folks back to your question, is to just to
Speaker 1: stay with it, to not let shame be the driving emotion.
Speaker 1: It's not sustainable to let love. I know this sounds
Speaker 1: so cliche, but to really have love lead the way.
Speaker 1: And you know, we live in a culture where we
Speaker 1: have one word for love. So what I'm talking about
Speaker 1: love is I'm talking about work. I'm talking about getting
Speaker 1: it wrong and still showing up, having so much love
Speaker 1: for each other that we still show up. There's that
Speaker 1: Um oh, what is it? It's the the African philosophy
Speaker 1: of Ubuntu. I am because we are. There's this quote
Speaker 1: by Desmond to to my humanity is bound up in yours,
Speaker 1: for we can only be human together. So that's what
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. That's the love I'm talking about. Um
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean and like this is connected to
Speaker 1: my philosophy as a as a sick, as a soldier,
Speaker 1: saint as um in the tenant of charity, Gala of
Speaker 1: eternal optimism in the face of darkness, I have to
Speaker 1: believe that I could move people towards justice, that they
Speaker 1: can move me towards justice that we can both hold
Speaker 1: each other in this and move together. Now that being said,
Speaker 1: everyone's work is different. You know. For some folks it's
Speaker 1: doing the work like I'm doing it, and for some
Speaker 1: folks it's just taking care of themselves. That is an
Speaker 1: act of resistance. But what I'm saying is long and short,
Speaker 1: is don't let shame be the emotion that drives to
Speaker 1: do this work. Let love be it. What has been
Speaker 1: your journey with finding the way that this optimism and
Speaker 1: buoyancy and positivity that's associated with this concept. How you
Speaker 1: find that in the you know, despair of the worst,
Speaker 1: the worst aspects of you know, racial and economic inequality
Speaker 1: in this country. Absolutely, I mean, I can't point to
Speaker 1: any one thing. It's a very good question and it's
Speaker 1: a long answer, but I'll just give one one short story.
Speaker 1: My mom died two years ago. It havevistated me, It
Speaker 1: broke me. I was really close to her. I can't
Speaker 1: even really describe, like just I hadn't experienced that kind
Speaker 1: of grief before. It was a physical grief, like my
Speaker 1: body ached. And I of course I've experienced grief and
Speaker 1: the loss of life of other folks and you know trauma,
Speaker 1: that have experienced sexual assault. It was it was really different.
Speaker 1: And I name that to say that I really want
Speaker 1: to center how hard it was, because on the other
Speaker 1: side of it is this it's the most unwelcome teacher
Speaker 1: I had, but that it did actually like deepen my joy.
Speaker 1: And so this is a complicated thing to say because
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not saying that you know it's because I've
Speaker 1: had I've experienced such oppression that I can have such
Speaker 1: joy or that that's the journey for people. But I
Speaker 1: do know that that pain that I experienced has connected
Speaker 1: me to other people. So for instance, just this past week,
Speaker 1: we were protesting for Black Lives Matter, and this man
Speaker 1: came up and started to say all sorts of stuff,
Speaker 1: all lives matter, you're racist, Um, why don't you like
Speaker 1: white people? And in my mind I just kept thinking, Um,
Speaker 1: you were born. At one point, you had a parent.
Speaker 1: You may be lost that parent. I know you know
Speaker 1: what grief feels like. And that not to say I
Speaker 1: didn't hold him accountable. Um, I did engage them and
Speaker 1: I said, you know, um did all the things and
Speaker 1: we won't take time for that now. But no, actually, well,
Speaker 1: I mean if you wouldn't mind sharing. I think that
Speaker 1: this is also probably useful. Yeah, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of ways that folks are trying to
Speaker 1: um distract from the conversation. I'm not saying other lives
Speaker 1: don't matter. I'm trying to really center the fact that
Speaker 1: we live in a system that has disproportionately treated black
Speaker 1: lives like they don't matter. And so that's what that
Speaker 1: statement is about. It's about centering that truth. I will
Speaker 1: also say Indigenous lives matter, so you know, and and
Speaker 1: that's that's like, just saying that statement is so upsetting
Speaker 1: for people that should illuminate to us the work that
Speaker 1: we have to do. That saying black lives matter upsets
Speaker 1: people so much that this man will pull over, get
Speaker 1: out of his car and come yell at a woman
Speaker 1: with like my children were with me, and so, um,
Speaker 1: I can't. Was I angry? Yes? Did I want to
Speaker 1: punch him in the sucking phase? Yes? Um? And I
Speaker 1: had to keep reminding myself he is lost, his heart
Speaker 1: is lost, He is coming from anger, and I wonder
Speaker 1: how much of his anger is in response to his shame.
Speaker 1: Now it's not my responsibility take care of him, but
Speaker 1: I will not let him take away my love and
Speaker 1: hope for humanity to stay on this path. So that night,
Speaker 1: you know, I prayed and I said, I hope he
Speaker 1: sees it. I hope he finds justice and listen, I
Speaker 1: can't do it. So that's why I come back to
Speaker 1: this thing of like white folksing to be doing the work,
Speaker 1: because I bet there's a white person in his life
Speaker 1: who can gently call him in and say, hey, can
Speaker 1: we talk about that all lives matter thing you keep saying,
Speaker 1: let's really break it down. And and this might be
Speaker 1: someone that loves them, It might be someone who totally
Speaker 1: disagrees with them, but because they love each other, they
Speaker 1: can stay in conversation with each other that I cannot.
Speaker 1: I did all that I could in that moment, and
Speaker 1: that was it, and I had to walk away. Can
Speaker 1: we talk? This is connected? I think of you as
Speaker 1: somebody who really lives and models deep listening, and that's
Speaker 1: sort of what you were just talking about. And for me,
Speaker 1: I'm using that term to try to capture this sense
Speaker 1: of hearing what somebody's real concern is underneath the words,
Speaker 1: however hurtful they may be choosing. Is that something you
Speaker 1: learned that's something you teach. Yes, Yeah, active listening. I
Speaker 1: think it's a teaching practice. And tomorrow I would say,
Speaker 1: I'm going to kick it back to you. How did
Speaker 1: you become such a good listener? I mean, you host
Speaker 1: a podcast, you listen to people who listen to their voices.
Speaker 1: It's a lot. I mean, so definitely been lifelong. Um Partly,
Speaker 1: I will say this sounds cliche, but having an acting background,
Speaker 1: the entire point of an acting training program is to
Speaker 1: get humans to read a text that is other humans
Speaker 1: talking and figure out what's happening underneath the words, What
Speaker 1: is the motivation? What do people want when they're not
Speaker 1: saying what they want? Yeah? And you know, I didn't
Speaker 1: end up becoming an actor, but I ended up becoming
Speaker 1: a person who thinks about every human interaction in those terms.
Speaker 1: And it's also how I teach my kid. You know,
Speaker 1: if he says I want water, I say, okay, how
Speaker 1: do you That's great, that's the first thing that's the want.
Speaker 1: Now how do you ask for what you want? Right?
Speaker 1: Sort of like reverse engineering it. And actually I'll share
Speaker 1: because I was thinking about bringing this up anyway. I
Speaker 1: think it might be useful for people. But one of
Speaker 1: the most like crystallizing moments for me in terms of
Speaker 1: how deep listening works is this exercise I picked up
Speaker 1: from a workshop I did once and I've repurposed it.
Speaker 1: But if there's person A in person B in person
Speaker 1: and A has a minute or two, let's say, one
Speaker 1: minute to vent about whatever they want to vent about.
Speaker 1: It has to be something that they can get really
Speaker 1: passionate about. It can be as massive about, you know,
Speaker 1: the the worst atrocities of the world, or it can
Speaker 1: be the sound of your husband chewing. You must swear
Speaker 1: at least twice. And person be's job is to just listen.
Speaker 1: So person A has one minute on the clock, they
Speaker 1: do whatever they can. Often they poop out and realize, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't actually I don't actually hate this stuff as
Speaker 1: much as I thought I did, which is always fascinating,
Speaker 1: especially if it's you know, in the second category. But
Speaker 1: also even if they are they're huge, they're passionate there whatever,
Speaker 1: and person be just listens. What's person be His job?
Speaker 1: After that minute is over. Person Be's job is to
Speaker 1: turn to the group at large and say, this is
Speaker 1: my friend whatever person his name is, and what I
Speaker 1: know about person A is and then say absolutely nothing
Speaker 1: of the actual vent, not even a wink at it,
Speaker 1: not even a hint, just what you learned about their
Speaker 1: values and their concerns as a person, just a listening
Speaker 1: to that event, whatever it is, You figure it out,
Speaker 1: You hear what you hear, and and person be tod
Speaker 1: not know in advance that that's what they were going
Speaker 1: to be listening for, but it forces them in front
Speaker 1: of a group to honor person A, this is my friend,
Speaker 1: and I want to honor them. Two things happen. One
Speaker 1: person be has often the first experience in their entire
Speaker 1: life of speaking in public without thinking about themselves, because
Speaker 1: it is such an active act to try to honor
Speaker 1: this person and say things that were not what they
Speaker 1: what they just heard. And second, it really strengthens or
Speaker 1: begins the process of developing that muscle of how do
Speaker 1: I listen for? The concern underneath what people are saying?
Speaker 1: Words are weird, and you know, inarticulate and not always
Speaker 1: they mean many things in English or not enough things,
Speaker 1: you know, But the underneath, the motivation, the human you know,
Speaker 1: the beating heart underneath the words, is what we're really
Speaker 1: what we should be listening for. That's yes, and it's
Speaker 1: something that comes to mind. If you're forced to really
Speaker 1: listen to what's behind the words, does that help you
Speaker 1: get past the form from which the words are emanating.
Speaker 1: And I don't mean to say that in like a
Speaker 1: color blind way or to not see gender, or but
Speaker 1: to hold it and not to see it as a
Speaker 1: single story of that person's experience. I mean this is
Speaker 1: brilliant because what I'm hearing is look at us, that
Speaker 1: all the different ways that we all the different ways
Speaker 1: that we articulate ourselves based on our life experiences. And
Speaker 1: I mean this from the absolutely literal what accent we
Speaker 1: have based on where we grew up, to all of
Speaker 1: the socialized stuff that's that we've picked up on purpose
Speaker 1: or not our whole lives. I'm you know this age female,
Speaker 1: So I say, like in my statements more often than
Speaker 1: a you know a different aged female or a you
Speaker 1: know sixty five year old man, you know whatever, all
Speaker 1: the different ways that we've been socialized to communicate, how
Speaker 1: how we do, how each of us individually does um
Speaker 1: is take it or leave it. It's part of us
Speaker 1: fin but underneath it is the stuff that's way more universal,
Speaker 1: what our wants are and our needs are we all
Speaker 1: have the same but because of that top level stuff
Speaker 1: that comes out different, we don't hear it the same. Yes, yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And there's so much fascinating data about that. Um when
Speaker 1: you want to think about bias and our medical system
Speaker 1: and how we hear pain at the same pain, how
Speaker 1: we hear differently if it's coming from a black person,
Speaker 1: a white person, a woman, a man, a rich person,
Speaker 1: a poor person, I mean, a brown person. It goes
Speaker 1: on and on and on. So yeah, I think it's
Speaker 1: really powerful. I'd love to talk about the ways that
Speaker 1: you open and close meetings. You know, you modeled for
Speaker 1: us something at the top, but even naming the land
Speaker 1: we're on and naming our pronouns is a start. And
Speaker 1: then there's something else too that I've heard you do
Speaker 1: in a number of meetings I've been in with you,
Speaker 1: where you really name intentionally what's happening in the space
Speaker 1: or what we hope will happen in this space. And
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk about how you know
Speaker 1: each of us can do some version of that when
Speaker 1: we're attempting to have a difficult conversation with somebody, to
Speaker 1: sort of set some sort of a ground rule. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: thank you for that, and especially for example white friends
Speaker 1: who are in denial of their privilege or something. Yes,
Speaker 1: So I will say it might feel or I won't
Speaker 1: say this. I will say that for me when I
Speaker 1: have tried to kind of off the cuff do this
Speaker 1: in a friendship and say hey, can we have a
Speaker 1: difficult conversation and here are some ground rules, it doesn't
Speaker 1: really fly so well, so I will tell you what
Speaker 1: I have. It feels like it completely rends the social
Speaker 1: fabric of what these contracts are when we when we
Speaker 1: start a conversation that seems like it's supposed to be casual.
Speaker 1: That's right. So I think that if I'm in a
Speaker 1: situation where it's one on one, I will call them
Speaker 1: and I'll say, I want to have a difficult conversation
Speaker 1: with you, and I hope you'll stay with me. And
Speaker 1: I'm bringing this conversation to you because I trust that
Speaker 1: our relationship can sustain it, and I am going to
Speaker 1: do my best to speak from my experience and not
Speaker 1: make statements with you and them like you do this,
Speaker 1: you are this, and you know can you do the same,
Speaker 1: And let's just see where we where we go now?
Speaker 1: That's one of the ground rules in the work. And
Speaker 1: again these are guiding principles from the National Seed Project. Um,
Speaker 1: I really hats off to them for putting me on
Speaker 1: this journey and all the tools they've given me. You know,
Speaker 1: speak from your own perspective, share the airspace, balance listening
Speaker 1: and speaking, acknowledge intent and focus on impact, and also
Speaker 1: acknowledge that our impact is viewed differently based on our identities.
Speaker 1: So there are several others, but the idea is that
Speaker 1: I really wanted name for folks the work that we're
Speaker 1: about to take on, and to give us some structure
Speaker 1: to hold us in that space, so that when someone
Speaker 1: starts to point a finger and say you, I can
Speaker 1: gently interrupt them and say, hey, listen, let's refer back
Speaker 1: to our guiding principle. Can you make that statement again
Speaker 1: and make it an eye statement. Speak from your own
Speaker 1: perspective And so there are tools that help you in facilitation,
Speaker 1: but it also really it sets the tone for the conversation.
Speaker 1: Those are also such useful. I mean, I feel like
Speaker 1: we all need to listen back to the tools that
Speaker 1: you just listed off, and like take notes and post
Speaker 1: them in our offices because this isn't just for difficult
Speaker 1: conversations about race. This is for any any difficult conversation,
Speaker 1: you know, asking for a raise, asking, you know, going
Speaker 1: to hr anything. And if you're not necessarily in the
Speaker 1: power position, you can't necessarily name those and set the
Speaker 1: space that way. But at least you can practice. How
Speaker 1: would I go into this conversation with I statements? Yes,
Speaker 1: because it's going to work out better for everybody, you know, right,
Speaker 1: And I'll add one to that for your listeners. Expect
Speaker 1: discomfort again. I think we touch in that earlier, but
Speaker 1: to expect that this is going to be like Kumbaya.
Speaker 1: It's going to be great. We had that difficult conversation
Speaker 1: and then that's it. Um. This isn't a checking the box.
Speaker 1: This is going to be a daily practice. So expect
Speaker 1: discomfort and be curious about it. I just want to
Speaker 1: everybody to hear what you said to a group of
Speaker 1: us on Sunday night, which is canceled. Culture won't kill
Speaker 1: any of us, but our silence will take lives. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, our reputation, how we're seeing whatever, getting it wrong,
Speaker 1: the perfectionism that lives in many many of us. Yes,
Speaker 1: absolutely right, and just acknowledging that if we're holding that
Speaker 1: in opposition to the pain and the violence that our
Speaker 1: silence can bring. Absolutely, that is where some of the
Speaker 1: discomfort lies. Absolutely that you know, we kind of got
Speaker 1: to choose the second one, and then how does that feel?
Speaker 1: And how what is it? What is it actually feel
Speaker 1: like to get things wrong, especially and when you're when
Speaker 1: you're visible and audible, not just alone in your own house,
Speaker 1: And to build it endurance for that, because that's what
Speaker 1: this is going to take. And to not just build endurance,
Speaker 1: but like the joy part of it that you're talking
Speaker 1: about is like, how do we how do we think
Speaker 1: about growth in those feelings that are like in those
Speaker 1: moments that are like oh as like also curiosity and
Speaker 1: also like joy that we're becoming a better version of ourselves.
Speaker 1: There's this wonderful what you were talking about at the
Speaker 1: fair beginning made me think about this wonderful concept that
Speaker 1: David Brooks, God bless whatever. I rarely quote white Man,
Speaker 1: but he talked about resume virtues versus eulogy virtues that
Speaker 1: so much of us in our lives are going for
Speaker 1: resume virtues. Right, I want to I want to be
Speaker 1: or seem successful and accomplished, and really, what are people
Speaker 1: going to talk about us when we're gone. We're gonna
Speaker 1: take a quick break and we're going to come back
Speaker 1: to find out who you brought in for us? Okay, great, Okay,
Speaker 1: So who did you bring in for us to listen to?
Speaker 1: I brought in, uh, Angela Davis? Because who doesn't love
Speaker 1: Angela Davis? I love. It's sort of it feels to
Speaker 1: me at this point like every single person that my
Speaker 1: guests spring in, I'm like, I can't believe that this
Speaker 1: person that they're brought in before. But the timing is
Speaker 1: so great. Thank you so much for bringing her in
Speaker 1: now of all times. Angela Davis, revolutionary Black panther scholar.
Speaker 1: This is a famous clip of her speaking to a
Speaker 1: reporter in two from a woman's prison where she was
Speaker 1: serving time for a crime that she didn't commit. Here
Speaker 1: it is they had to take their guns and patrol
Speaker 1: our community every night because they did not want that
Speaker 1: to happen again. I mean that's why when someone asked
Speaker 1: me about violence, uh, I just I just found an
Speaker 1: incredible because what it means is that the person who
Speaker 1: was asking that question has absolutely no idea what black
Speaker 1: people have gone through what black people have experienced in
Speaker 1: this country since the time the first black person was kidnapped.
Speaker 1: From the show was of Africa and familiar with that quote.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean listen, yeah, listen. I went straight
Speaker 1: to the I went straight to I was, I was.
Speaker 1: I listened to some of her later. You know, she's
Speaker 1: an academic, she's done with a huge amount of lectures
Speaker 1: that are available on the internet. But I thought, especially
Speaker 1: this is you know this, this uh clueless white guy
Speaker 1: asking about the choice of the Black panthers using violence
Speaker 1: as one of the revolutionary tactics. And she just spends
Speaker 1: like three minutes saying, um, I'm sorry our choice, that's right,
Speaker 1: that's right. Well, I think about something that and again,
Speaker 1: this is not These are not my words, and these
Speaker 1: are things that a lot of social just as activists
Speaker 1: are saying right now. I think Tamiko Malory said this.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, she's the exact same quote.
Speaker 1: It was the exact same thing people are talking to
Speaker 1: us about looting. Well, this land was looted from the
Speaker 1: Native Americans. Black bodies have been looted, and we're just
Speaker 1: doing what you taught us. The violence is what we
Speaker 1: learned from you. That's right, that's right. So don't talk
Speaker 1: to us about violence when I talk to us about looting.
Speaker 1: Take a look at yourselves. Absolutely, And the fact that
Speaker 1: Angela Davis, I mean she in this video she's smoking
Speaker 1: while in a women's prison in V. Two, wearing like
Speaker 1: the coolest like seventies turtleneck while in prison, saying these
Speaker 1: words directly to the face of an absolutely clueless white
Speaker 1: man with all of the theoretical power in that room. Well,
Speaker 1: and what's also very interesting is that that man is
Speaker 1: um I can forget now, but he's like Scandinavian or
Speaker 1: I don't I'm not, but he's not an American. Right
Speaker 1: before he goes into speak with her, he does speak
Speaker 1: in another language actually don't remember, German or something, and
Speaker 1: and he basically focuses on like that he got the
Speaker 1: he got the scoop. He's the first person to get
Speaker 1: to go in and talk to her. So that's clearly
Speaker 1: what it was, was like I just made a awesome
Speaker 1: career booth and and then was so ready with his
Speaker 1: got you question about about how violence isn't the answer,
Speaker 1: and then she got ship him back. That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1: It was about him, and he didn't even realize that
Speaker 1: it has nothing to do with him and everything to
Speaker 1: do with him. Yes, love that, And I mean, also
Speaker 1: what a great it's so it's so seventies, but the
Speaker 1: news footage just focuses on her and tighter and wider
Speaker 1: view but doesn't actually cut back to him, which just like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's lovely, it really centers that, like she's
Speaker 1: the you know point well, I also love and you'll
Speaker 1: know more about this than I would. I love how
Speaker 1: intentional she is with every word. It's so powerful to
Speaker 1: hear her speak. Um. I feel like I'm you know,
Speaker 1: listening and pin drops she's economical and yet says, you know,
Speaker 1: it's she just has a way with words. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I and I wonder also if it's um, you know,
Speaker 1: at that point, she'd already had so much academic training
Speaker 1: and so much um revolutionary training. You know, she'd read
Speaker 1: enough to know what her opinion was. Is what I'm
Speaker 1: trying to say. And you know, a secret for all
Speaker 1: of us when we're trying to speak publicly is obviously
Speaker 1: to do the work. But what that means is not
Speaker 1: just to do the work of reading, but to do
Speaker 1: the work of reading and then sitting with what do
Speaker 1: I agree with? What don't I agree with? Yeah? And
Speaker 1: I think what was so powerful for me to see
Speaker 1: as a young woman of color was her confidence. Like
Speaker 1: I needed to see that because I saw confidence is
Speaker 1: something that only certain people got to have. Now, let
Speaker 1: me tell you something. My mama was confident. Walk into
Speaker 1: a room, was like everyone's looking at me, everyone's listening
Speaker 1: to me. So I'm so thankful I had her to
Speaker 1: guide me. And I did not always get to see
Speaker 1: that with a lot of folks of color. I mean
Speaker 1: it's training. It's training, right, the deferential the I mean,
Speaker 1: I call it performing gratitude, said. A lot of us
Speaker 1: were told it is a requirement to enter a space,
Speaker 1: and if we don't perform gratitude, we're called, depending on
Speaker 1: our identities, a bitch, pupity m you know. So then
Speaker 1: we're like, okay, I guess I have to perform this.
Speaker 1: And then it it's so ingrained in us that we
Speaker 1: don't know how to be confident because our entire life
Speaker 1: we've said, but I don't know, what do you think? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we walk into our into a room, and I'll say,
Speaker 1: for myself, I would walk into a room, and I
Speaker 1: didn't immediately apologize for my existence. I'm so sorry? Am
Speaker 1: I too loud? Am I taking too much space? You know?
Speaker 1: Am I too brown? And I whatever? Fill in the blank?
Speaker 1: Am I not enough? Well? And this is something that
Speaker 1: you know, comes up on this podcast a lot, because
Speaker 1: obviously I'm a huge kick for people to who are
Speaker 1: listening to, you know, think about the ways in their
Speaker 1: life that they're apologizing for taking up space and taking
Speaker 1: up time and start to you know, roll that back
Speaker 1: and also acknowledge that some of that is in place
Speaker 1: because of systemic oppression safety O, their fear of their safety, yes,
Speaker 1: absolutely systemic a person that led them there. But also
Speaker 1: why they might not take the advice of this random
Speaker 1: woman on this podcast is because they're all ready to
Speaker 1: They're all ready to say, you know, today's the day
Speaker 1: I'm not going to apologize for myself, And then they
Speaker 1: walk into a space that's scary as fuck and they
Speaker 1: realize the only way they're going to quote unquote phrase
Speaker 1: I use all the time, get what they want with
Speaker 1: their voice is to play that game. It's why we've
Speaker 1: done it smart can Night share one short powerful story?
Speaker 1: Of course, this was years ago. Um I was facilitating
Speaker 1: during the National Seed Projects summer institutes, So as facilitating
Speaker 1: for one of the summer institutes, and I was in
Speaker 1: a small group discussion. It was multiracial with men and
Speaker 1: women as well and UM sis gender and heterosexual. So
Speaker 1: we have this, we have this protocol where when someone
Speaker 1: causes harm, you say ouch, and then the person who
Speaker 1: caused harms says oops, and then that is when there's
Speaker 1: a facilitator check in. So there was a comment that
Speaker 1: was made by a white woman that caused harm to
Speaker 1: a black woman, and a black woman said ouch. The
Speaker 1: white woman immediately said oops and burst into tears. Well,
Speaker 1: the entire circle shifted towards her, and the first person
Speaker 1: to give her a Kleenex and comfort her was the
Speaker 1: black woman she got up from They were sitting across
Speaker 1: from each other, and circle got up and gave her
Speaker 1: a clean X. And I was about to jump out
Speaker 1: of my chair, and the woman I was sitting next
Speaker 1: to you, Gil Cruz Robinson, who was an amazing facilitator
Speaker 1: and um is one of the lead staff at the
Speaker 1: National Seed Project, just kind of gently touched by because
Speaker 1: she could tell that the house about to fly on
Speaker 1: my chair and she gave it a moment. We all,
Speaker 1: you know, took a breath and said, I want to
Speaker 1: point out that the harmless caused to the black woman,
Speaker 1: and yet we're all tending to this white woman. And
Speaker 1: I actually want to turn to this black woman and
Speaker 1: ask her, you know, why did you also go to
Speaker 1: comfort her? You're the one in pain. We need to
Speaker 1: tend to you. And she said something that I still
Speaker 1: gives me chills to say. She said, when she's uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: I'm unsafe. And that's something that will never leave me,
Speaker 1: and a reminder to me that if folks of color
Speaker 1: cannot show up to do this work in the way
Speaker 1: that white folks are doing it, that's the different justice
Speaker 1: that we need and that we have to create in
Speaker 1: this world. So when folks of color do the work,
Speaker 1: they're literally risking their safety. When white folks do the work,
Speaker 1: they're risking their comfort. I also want to ask the
Speaker 1: real fast does this work? Does offering yourself up as
Speaker 1: a facilitator while also being a woman of color create
Speaker 1: a burden for you? And if so, how do you
Speaker 1: relieve it? It is a weight. It's a hard question
Speaker 1: because it it is hard work. I relieve it. I
Speaker 1: find my affinity spaces, and I retreat to my the
Speaker 1: woman of color in my life who support me. Um.
Speaker 1: I retreat into my I shouldn't say retreat, but I
Speaker 1: find shelter in my faith, in my religion sicky and
Speaker 1: I get into nature. I cuddle with my babies, I read, read, read,
Speaker 1: and I breathe take lots of deep breaths. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not a choice. I'm compelled. Yeah. Thanks, thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for this space, for this time, your voice,
Speaker 1: my voice to Cole Mingle, thanks, thank you. I'm crying.
Speaker 1: I cried. You made me cry. That's good. That's good
Speaker 1: pod right there. Thank you to naelm Get for joining us.
Speaker 1: You can find out more about her and the National
Speaker 1: Seed Project in the show notes or on our website
Speaker 1: Permission to Speak pot dot com. And there's also a
Speaker 1: really amazing bit of bonus content that's gonna be thrown
Speaker 1: onto year old Instagram feed having to do with awkward
Speaker 1: things that your kid might say around people who look
Speaker 1: different than them, and some feedback on what to do
Speaker 1: about it. Please go to Instagram Permission to Speak Pod,
Speaker 1: send me d M S or right in the comments.
Speaker 1: I would love to see it publicly as well. Tell
Speaker 1: me what the difficult conversations are that you're having this week.
Speaker 1: Tell me about how it feels to use your voice
Speaker 1: in new and weird ways, and you know, let's keep
Speaker 1: this conversation going. I'll do a mail bag episode coming up.
Speaker 1: So truly, if you have any questions, whether it's about
Speaker 1: social justice work or about leadership in any other capacity
Speaker 1: in your life. And you know, by leadership, I just
Speaker 1: mean saying what matters, you know, let me know. We'll
Speaker 1: talk about it. It will resonate with other people, believe me.
Speaker 1: Thanks as well to Sophie Lichterman and the team at
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, my family and friends and all of you. Truly,
Speaker 1: we're recording this podcast at various locations around Los Angeles
Speaker 1: on land that is the historic gathering place for the
Speaker 1: Tongva indigenous tribe, and you can visit us d a
Speaker 1: C dot us to learn more about honoring Native land.
Speaker 1: Permission to Speak is a production of I Heart Radio
Speaker 1: and Double Vision Executive produced by Katherine Burke Canton and
Speaker 1: Mark Canton. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, listen
Speaker 1: on the ihart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your favorite shows. Too pomp and pumping, poking,