WEBVTT - Neelamjit Dhaliwal 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.680 Today's quote is from Candice Sanchez McFarlane. I have read 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:07.360 a lot of comments from well intentioned people with phrases 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:10.000 like quote. I know I will never understand what it 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:14.120 is like dot dot dot. You're right, if being a 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:16.520 black person in America is not your lived experience, you 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:20.479 will never understand. You don't have to. I don't understand 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:22.080 what it is like to be an e R doctor 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:25.119 during a global pandemic, but I do know what I 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.960 can do to support them. I feel a human obligation 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.320 to do more than shout at seven pm or repost 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.680 articles online. I wear a mask. I actively make sure 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.680 my children wear masks. I donate to causes that support 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.600 their work. When people say ignorant things like the pandemic 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:43.240 isn't real, I actively speak up and out for the 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:45.960 people who are risking their lives every day. I don't 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:49.239 believe the e R doctor needs me to understand what 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:51.480 it was like to go through medical school, to take 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.680 on extreme amounts of student debt, to feel the weight 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:57.880 of responsibility when a patient's life rests in your hands, 0:00:58.200 --> 0:00:59.960 To know that you can't spend time with your family 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:01.600 because of the work you were called to do. How 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:04.560 could I understand, but what I do know is that 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:07.600 there are ways within my power to support those people. 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:18.920 Welcome to the podcast. That's all about the voice, which 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:22.520 means it's all about power. Who has it, how we 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.640 get it, how we sound when we have it. I'm 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.800 your host, Samarave, and this is permission to speak, where 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:30.959 we can throw all our best ideas about how to 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:44.840 get ourselves heard into the pot and start. Today's guest 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.120 is my friend nil Um Geet Dolly Wall. She's a 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.320 social justice facilitator through the National Seed Project, which I 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:52.440 will link to in the show notes. This means that 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:57.760 she trains leaders and educators and now through activist organizations 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.440 and through the Jane Club, which is women's core space 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.880 in Hollywood that's got a very robust online program during 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:06.760 the pandemic, so anybody around the country or world can 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.840 joined by the way through places like that, she trains 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:13.960 anyone who takes her workshops on how to do the 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.080 work to make the world more just. And that's what 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.280 this episode is about. How do we speak up to whom? 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:25.040 What do we say? How do we handle how uncomfortable 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:29.960 it feels the systems? You know, um, white supremacy patriarchy, 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:34.960 capitalism are massive and not our fault, but we do 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:38.440 uphold them in all kinds of like super sneaky ways, 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:42.040 most of us without knowing it, and that's on us 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:44.640 to go from not knowing to knowing, and then from 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:49.000 knowing to doing to speaking to dismantling. I wanted to 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:53.120 have Neil jeed on because she's so clear and intentional 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:56.200 around this work, and because frankly, she's the person in 0:02:56.240 --> 0:03:00.200 my own life who offers herself professionally as a resources 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.600 for all of us with all of our awkward questions 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:07.000 and discomfort and growing pains around this work. I hope 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:17.919 this conversation is useful. This is Neon Jeet jet Hi. 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.680 Thank you for joining, Thank you for joining us, Thank 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.800 you for me. Okay, So we're going to talk about 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:28.880 social justice work, which is what you do. Um. Yeah, 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:32.520 and Samara speaking of social justice, is it okay if 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:36.880 I begin by acknowledging the land? Yes? Please, I'd like 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.520 to begin and open our time together by acknowledging the 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:44.280 land that I'm sitting on, which is the land of 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.000 the tongue of a tribe, the traditional custodians and their 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:51.200 elders past and present. I have to begin by acknowledging 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.560 and thanking my ancestors who paved the way for me 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:58.440 to be able to take this journey. And I also 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.320 have to thank my l rs and all the people 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:05.080 who have taught me along the way. And most especially 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:10.000 I need to thank my partner, my husband, Mark, and 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:16.120 my sister, my best friend, my twenty. Without the two 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:18.440 of them in particular, I don't think this work would 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:22.400 be possible. So I really want to name that because 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:28.440 you know, this work takes a lot of support. And 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:33.120 my pronouns are she hear hers and thank you? Thank you. 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:36.480 My pronouns are she hear her so as well so 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:41.479 social justice training. Um yeah, I mean you know my 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:43.080 path a little bit. I was an educator, I was 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.040 a math teacher before and um, how I found myself 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.680 doing this work is I went and got trained by 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:52.240 the National Seed Project back in two thousand twelve, and 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.960 so since then I've been leading these seminars um around 0:04:56.560 --> 0:05:00.360 helping people understand how sy stomach oppression operates. And the 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:05.720 heart of seeds model is storytelling. So it's basically we 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:07.680 we're really asking each other, like, are you willing to 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:12.200 be changed by my experience? Um. And one person that 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:14.880 comes to mind is my friend Lauren Whitney, and she 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:19.479 made this video called when did My Black Baby Become 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.479 a Threat to You? And it was in response to 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:26.040 just the cumulative impact of all the black lives lost, 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:30.280 but particularly I think when George Floyd was murdered. And 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:35.120 it's a really powerful video. But again it invites us 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:39.320 in to consider how am I going to be changed 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.080 by her story? What is my responsibility? She's giving me 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:44.000 her story, I'm holding it, what am I going to 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:46.800 do with it? Yeah, I'm so thrilled she made that, 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.039 and UM, I'll link to it in the show notes. 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:53.400 It's also on our social feed And so now, so 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.800 I've taken those workshops and kind of taking them out 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.960 of an educational setting and brought them to my current 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.360 place of employment, the Chain Club, and also places in 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:07.440 which I volunteer or my activists networks, and what are 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.359 the challenges when you're not working with educators anymore? But 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.280 just you know whoever shows up at your workshops in 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:17.120 these social or activism spaces. There's this great quote I love. 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.679 UM it's by UH an educator. Her name is Judy Logan, 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.880 and she says, close the door and change the world. 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.000 So you have the opportunity in your classroom to really 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.040 it's to change lives. And I think a lot of educators, 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.400 I'll speak for myself that is is such a um 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:38.000 an honor but a huge responsibility. And so I think 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.880 as an educator we take it really seriously. So when 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.560 you come to the work, you bring a level of 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:47.920 vulnerability and honesty and a willingness to really kind of 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.880 step into it um because you you understand what's at risk. 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.200 So I think the I wouldn't say the biggest challenge, 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:57.039 but a challenge when you transfer it outside of an 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:00.359 education setting is that it's really hard for folks to 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:03.640 see how they're upholding systems. That's that was hard for 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:07.279 teachers too, but um or parents or even students. But 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.120 it's particularly so when I'm saying I'm doing it in 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:13.320 a setting like an organizing setting, where those people are 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:16.800 coming to the table because they consider themselves to be 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:21.280 quote unquote woke or consider themselves to be allies, and 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.560 so they consider themselves to be good. And what does 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:29.520 it mean to help people who see themselves in this 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:34.040 through this lens through us a lens of kind of 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.640 the liberal ideal of what it means to be in 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:40.240 just relations with others and then recognizing that they still 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:42.200 have work to do. So I would say that's a 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.680 little bit more of a challenge. Yeah, I'm curious to 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:49.360 hear for you what was your experience with it and 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.000 what was challenging for you. Yeah, I mean I think 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.920 you you super defined me when you said that. You know, 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:00.800 I was telling them before we started recording that I, uh, 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:06.760 like September ish, six months ago, eight months ago, Um, 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:10.040 there had been a workshop that you were doing at 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:13.000 the Jain Club, UM that I was not available for 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:15.680 for like completely legit work reasons. But also you know, 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:21.160 one has to wonder when what one's priorities are. Uh. 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.800 It's interesting how I put that in the third person, um, 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:26.800 but it made me wonder what my priorities were because 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.119 you totally called me in. You know, you said something 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.360 like noticed you weren't there at that workshop, and I felt, 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.800 you know, uh, and an instant rise of defensiveness. I 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.840 didn't I don't think presented to you, but inside I 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.040 was like, she doesn't understand what my schedule was, like, 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.319 you know. But between that and another conversation I had 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.720 with a good friend of mine of color who UM 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.120 was questioning and organization I was in that was too white. 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.360 That happened within the same week of each other. I 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:57.440 finally picked up white fragility because I thought, I just 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.600 I actually think I'm more woke than I am quote 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:04.080 unquote woke, and I need tools and they're out there. 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.320 You know, well, thank you so much for sharing that. 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:12.079 I think it's important. Also, UM, what I hear when 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:13.440 I hear that is that you know, we don't we 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:17.439 don't come to this work arrived. And though I leave 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:21.520 these conversations, I facilitate these conversations. I'm really creating space 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.040 for folks to do their work. And I'm still doing 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.960 my work that I, as a South Asian Brown, they 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:33.120 see women of color and also complicit in anti bilock racism, 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.880 and it's particularly important for me to center that in 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:41.160 my justice work and hold myself accountable, and also to 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.480 name the ways in which the model minority myth has 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:50.040 been created to uphold anti black racism. And alongside that, 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:54.120 I also have the journey of taking a look at 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:59.760 my own internalized racism, anti Asian racism, and how that's 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:04.839 up to me from being in authentic and just relations 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:09.440 with my own people. So the work never ends. And 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:11.760 you know, I'm still learning and I have a long 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:14.920 way to go, you know, And I think, I think 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.200 that's There's this thing that my mom used to tell 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.840 me when when I would talk about justice, because I 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.679 would sometimes have this righteousness about my justice and my 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.920 work with justice, and she would say, you know, whether 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.040 you have been just to the world and those around 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:34.120 you is not for you to determine. It will be 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:38.280 determined in your absence. So after I'm gone, those who 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.880 have left behind will look around and say, what she 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:44.280 committed to justice? And that's really kind of centered and 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:47.320 grounded my work to make sure it's a lifelong practice. 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.480 And of course, you know, being a parent and thinking 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:54.160 about the world I'm leaving behind for my children, and 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:56.000 then of course as an educator, I used to call 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.360 those kids my kids too, you know, the world that's 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:02.800 for them, And so um, yeah, I think about what 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.040 I heard from you too, is that you have you're 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:09.600 you're on this journey now and there's so much more 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.720 that awaits you as long as you stay committed to it. Yeah. Thanks, 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.760 I am um, And and I've really been trying to 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:22.560 you know, intentionally make this space one that's for anti 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.480 racism since the start, because also you know, once you see, 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:31.640 you can't unsee, and um, it affects everything. I mean, 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:34.319 if we didn't have racism, we could have cured cancer 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:36.800 right now, you know, we could have cured poverty, we 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.200 could have We have no idea the world that we 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:42.400 could be living in if we didn't have racism, if 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.839 we didn't have sexism, if we didn't have you know, 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:49.600 all these systems of oppression, what would this world be like? 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:51.880 It makes me think of Tony Morrison's quote about how 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:55.559 racism is just distracting. Yes, I love that quote. Yes, 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:59.719 it just distracts us, absolutely takes up so much of 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:04.240 our rain in our bodies. Yeah yeah, Um, I want 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:07.360 to talk specifically about this concept of racism for anybody 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.240 listening in who's relatively new to what their place is 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:13.960 in dismantling it basically. Um, something that was a real 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:17.400 takeaway from me from White Fragility from Robin D. Angelo's 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:21.640 book is that, um, there's an oversimplified version of what 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:24.160 racism is that many of us grew up with that 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.880 racists are bad people. So you can't both be a 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.960 good person and also do things that are racist that 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:32.960 would break our brains, right, and so we just sort 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:34.960 of reject all of that. And so one of the 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.600 things that she introduces, and she does this you know, 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:41.679 social social justice training work as well, right, and so 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:43.880 one of the things that she introduces to a largely 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.000 white audience so that they can start to think about 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:49.560 this is that racism is these small acts that we 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:53.280 do that uphold systems that you know, serve us in 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:55.079 certain ways and sometimes you don't, even as we were 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.240 just discussing, but serve us in certain ways. And I 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.120 wonder if we can actually jump in and talk a 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.280 little bit about that that resource that I mentioned ahead 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.319 of time about how white supremacy culture shows up in 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.040 our work, because this, I think is so it's so 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:12.320 tangible when we talk about racism. One danger is, as 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:14.560 as I just said, you know, racists are bad people, 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.319 and I'm not a bad person, so I'm not the problem. 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.240 That's a that's a real black and white way of 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.120 thinking about it. That is that just stops us from growing. 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.720 And another part of it is, okay, if we admit 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:30.760 we are each of us racist, because we are all 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.199 breathing that air and we have since we were babies. 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.360 How am I racist? And then we think does that 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.080 mean being mean to people who don't look like me? 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:41.320 Because I don't have a memory of doing that, you know. 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.400 And so this document that I found when I took 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:47.040 a feminist business school course, which happened last year, So 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.280 I guess that was maybe the beginning of me. Really 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:51.800 it was an online course that was so much more 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:56.320 um critical thinking in academia than I expected, and you know, 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:58.880 as a real feminist course and not just a quote 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:01.360 unquote white feminist. A lot of it was about white 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.720 supremacy and the ways that we are perpetuating it in 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:08.200 our work without realizing it for entrepreneurs, for maybe women 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.640 business owners. Um, So I want to pull this up. 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.440 I'm going to provide it as a resource in the 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:18.640 show notes. But um, the Characteristics of white supremacy culture. Uh. 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:23.320 It's by Tima Okun and Kenneth Jones, and it's part 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:27.000 of something called Dismantling Racism, a workbook for social change groups. 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.200 It says, below is a list of characteristics of white 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.360 supremacy culture which show up in our organizations. So the 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:37.640 first one is perfectionism. Yeah, can I share one under perfectionism, 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.720 I think is really powerful. Yes, please, making a mistake 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:45.320 is confused with being a mistake, doing wrong with being wrong, 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.840 and I think that shows up a lot in institutions, 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:54.160 and I think that that really undergrids white supremacy culture, 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:58.720 because to do justice work is to acknowledge that we're 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:03.040 doing harm, we're doing wrong, we're making mistakes. But if 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:06.680 you have an ideal of white supremacy that's upholding your 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:10.600 institution in the form of perfectionism, you're not even going 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:12.600 to be able to get to it because what happens 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.080 is folks come to the table and you say, hey, listen, 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.400 the institution is making some mistakes, it's getting them some 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.560 things wrong. And people are like, oh, well, no, I'm 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:24.440 I'm perfect, this institution is perfect. How dare you? Are 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.480 you calling me a racist? And then it becomes this 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:32.200 debate about whether someone's good or bad. So perfectionism is 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.640 directly linked to the earlier point you brought up of 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:38.360 this good bad binary. And the question isn't whether we're 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.560 good or bad. The question is to what degree are 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:44.960 we racist? And then the question is how do we 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:47.640 work to be anti racist? Right? How do we actually 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:52.640 schedule in time and money and energy into improvements, Yes, 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:55.040 it says. One of the other bullet points says, there's 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.680 little time, energy, or money to put into reflection or 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:00.800 identifying lessons learned that can improve practice us. In other words, 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:04.200 little or no learning from mistakes. Yes, so then the 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:06.000 only thing only choice you have is to redefine a 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:10.080 mistake is not a mistake exactly exactly, which just takes 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.720 so much energy away from I mean, that's the distraction. 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.120 Takes so much energy away from actually doing the work, 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.640 which you know would help people grow and change and 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:22.239 probably improve their bottom line. Yes, well, come on, y'all's capitalism. 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:27.360 And that connects right to the sense of urgency. So 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:31.080 I mean, all of these uphold each other. The sense 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.960 of urgency I think is, um, you know, we don't 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:36.840 have time for this, or we do have time for it, 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:38.440 and we have to do it right away and has 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.520 to be perfect and we you know, yeah, we don't 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.680 have time to be you know, inclusive, or to use 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.480 a decision making process that's democratic, so you know, head 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:47.880 down and no drama anyone. And and that's the other 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:50.600 part of doing this work is that folks kind of 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:54.000 expect this like kumba, Yeah, now we're all friends and 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.360 we can get past this whole color thing. After you do, 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.000 say like a seminar in anti bias or a seminar 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.480 and racial identity U or racism or sexism or whatever 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.600 it is. And the truth is you're going to be 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:10.680 more uncomfortable afterwards than you ever were before. And how 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:16.240 do you build that endurance for discomfort for really examining 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.280 the ways in which you are complicit? And I want 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:21.800 to say, you know, that's a discomfort that is just 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:26.399 second nature to folks who experience that oppression well, and 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:28.120 that connects to another one I want to call out, 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.479 which is the right to comfort. Yes, I mean I 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:36.760 was reading this thinking about the Kabinar hearings and was like, oh, right, 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.080 this helps me understand stuff. The right to comfort, the 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:43.160 belief that those with power have a right to emotional 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:50.160 and psychological comfort, escapegoating those who cause discomfort, equating individual 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.280 acts of unfairness against white people with systemic racism which 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.000 daily targets people of color, the idea that you know, 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.480 it goes on and on. Not everybody gets to not 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:03.360 everybody gets to be angry in your office, right, And 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:07.560 how that shows up in the individual sense, is that 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.320 you know, someone will say, this thing happened to me 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:16.480 in the workplace. It was racist, sexist, hetero sexist, whatever 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.600 the case may be, and we won't have systemic thinking 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.119 cap on will have personal or interpersonal thinking head on, 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:26.639 so we will dismiss their experience and say, this is 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:29.719 not systemic oppression operating. This is just that one person. 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.320 They're just a little too sensitive or you know, we 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.800 do all sorts of mental gymnastics. Why can't they take 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:43.879 a joke exactly exactly? And so I mean that you're right, 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:48.040 Kavanaugh is a perfect embodiment of that, and we the 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:52.160 whole country got to watch it. Yeah yeah, um, okay, 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:53.919 we're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.720 we're going to talk more about this specifically the intersections 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:02.119 um that you're talking about here, because you know, for 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.159 a lot of white ladies, we think first about the 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:09.159 ways that we're struggling to be taken seriously. And I 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:12.280 absolutely center that story in this podcast. That is a 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:14.520 part of the point of this podcast. And I also 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:16.920 want to say that I'm including immigrants here. I'm including 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.160 anybody who's queer who feels like how they come across 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:23.359 is affecting how how seriously they're taken in spaces where 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.080 they would like more power than they have, and what 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:30.359 we can learn from some of our own experiences there 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:34.600 to equip us better to deal with racism. But we 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:48.280 need to take a break first, because okay, we're back. 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:53.760 So what I'm thinking about specifically with this question of intersectionality, UM, 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:56.720 is if we can think about the ways that we 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:00.520 have felt oppressed and start to gen only think of 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:03.960 ourselves as oppressors, and what is that relationship? What is 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:05.639 it to sort of like sit with that for a 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:09.560 moment and then and then the next step is I 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:10.840 don't know what the next step is. I don't want 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.159 to say the next step, but another step is, um 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:16.840 Neil and Jeed, I know you're interested in how white 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.320 people who are sort of on this journey can call 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:26.080 in gently enough that they're heard other white people. Yeah. 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:32.440 So to that first piece about realizing that you uphold 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:37.679 systems of oppression, UM, I think that the emotion that 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.159 I would name is shame that comes up for a 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:44.399 lot of people, And shame is an emotion that is, 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:48.359 you know, shame equals I am bad, guilt, is I 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.880 did something wrong, there's some agency and guilt. I can 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:54.399 try to fix it. I can try to right or wrong. 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:59.080 The shame is an emotion that really kind of stops 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:03.000 you in your tracks. And what I like to remind 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:07.560 people is that this system was built without your consent. 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.720 You were placed into it without your consent. You have 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:16.000 been programmed in condition to operate within it without your 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:20.040 consent as children, as teens, and then as young adults. 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:23.200 And that's by design, that is how the system is 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:27.120 built to be. That's not to absolve people who hold 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:30.639 privilege of their responsibility, but it's just to give a 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:35.879 little space for some compassion and grace to say that, 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:39.600 you know, you individually did not create the system overnight. 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:43.560 It took hundreds of years to build it, and it's 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:49.080 made invisible by design. So be patient with yourself, but 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:54.760 also hold yourself accountable and use that feeling of my God, 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:58.280 Am I causing harm to people? Are there things I'm 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:01.480 just by walking through the world? Is my very existence 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:05.760 a problem? People start to ask themselves these really difficult questions, 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:07.760 And what I like to say is, you know, a 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:09.800 lot of times in this work, it's not necessarily like 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:14.160 arriving at the answer, it's at keeping to ask the question, 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:18.760 continuously going down that journey that reveals another question, another question, 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:21.000 another question I think about. Are you familiar with segments 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:25.640 of self knowledge? So you know, there's what you know, 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:29.280 there's what you know that you don't know, there's what 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:34.199 you don't know you know, but my favorite is what 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:37.639 you don't know that you don't know. So, if you 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:40.919 are committed to being on this path of justice, of 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:44.639 really understanding systems of oppression, the ways in which you 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:47.240 are either oppressed under them or the ways in which 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:51.640 you benefit under them, the intersection of all of those, right, So, 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:56.639 how I experience racism intersects with my religion as a 0:22:56.720 --> 0:22:59.920 sick in this country where we've experienced a lot of 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:04.880 um my communities experience love it, samophobia, xenophobia. So that's 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:09.040 different from say, someone who is South Asian and not sick. 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:12.199 So it's all intertwined and we're all we all have 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:14.080 our work to do. That being said back to d 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:17.399 k DK, which you don't know you don't know, that 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:20.240 is the work that you're committed to. So you stay 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:23.520 on this path and you continuously start to see my God, 0:23:23.560 --> 0:23:26.359 I didn't know that. I didn't know that, and dad 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:30.240 again is by design. So that's what I would say 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:34.679 to folks back to your question, is to just to 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:38.399 stay with it, to not let shame be the driving emotion. 0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:42.760 It's not sustainable to let love. I know this sounds 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:46.639