1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: My own black a dollar has gone on overlining. 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 2: I ninth Planet Audio dot com. 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: We're overlining, You're going over. 4 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 2: Hello. 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 3: We are back today with another bonus episode and a 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 3: quick update before the holidays. Since our last episode, we've 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 3: continued to follow up with BHS and the school board 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 3: for any updates on progress and changing the mascot. Unfortunately, 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 3: we don't have a ton of updates to report as 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 3: of now, but we are going to keep pushing and 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 3: planning on a bigger update episode for you all in 12 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 3: the new year. Until then, feel free to keep reaching 13 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 3: out to the various stakeholders with your words of encouragement 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 3: for changing the mascot. Every single nudge helps. Also, if 15 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 3: you're looking for holiday gifts, be sure to check out 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 3: the Rebel Spirit Shop online at Rebelspiritshop dot myshopify dot 17 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 3: com and we also have the link in the show notes. 18 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 3: And now, we hope you enjoy this bonus episode featuring 19 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 3: some expanded interviews, and I'd like to wish you a 20 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 3: happy holidays from the entire Rebel Spirit team. 21 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 4: I was a lady rebel, Like, what does. 22 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 2: That even mean? 23 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 3: The Boone County Rebels will stay the Boone County rebels 24 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 3: with the image. 25 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,839 Speaker 5: Of right here in black and white and friends, am. 26 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: I figures is a flag or mascot. 27 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: Anytime you're trying to mess with tradition, you get to 28 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: be ready for a serious. 29 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 5: Backlash from Ninth Planet Audio. 30 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 3: I'm Akhila Hughes and this is Rebel Spirit Extended Interviews. 31 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 3: When I embarked on this journey of change, I knew 32 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 3: that I would want to talk to a lot of 33 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 3: different people along the way. In the year plus that 34 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 3: we've been working on this podcast, I was lucky enough 35 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 3: to have dozens of interviews, and of course we were 36 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 3: only able to feature a few minutes of what sometimes 37 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 3: ended up being thirty to forty five minute conversations. In 38 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 3: this episode, I wanted to offer some expanded interviews from 39 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 3: three conversations that really stuck with me during the process 40 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 3: of making Rebel Spirit. First, you get to hear a 41 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 3: bit more from Amber Hoffman, who is one of our 42 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 3: first allies on the ground in Florence and has continued 43 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: to be a huge source of support for us. I 44 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 3: wanted you to hear more about her organization's fight against 45 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 3: Moms for Liberty. Though we didn't interact much with the 46 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 3: local Moms for Liberty chapter. They have been a hindrance 47 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: toward progress for much of what Amber cares about. 48 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: So I have a fifteen year old son and a 49 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: thirteen year old daughter. My daughter identifies as PAM. My 50 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: son is sis like white gender, all of that. He's 51 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: the exact stereotype, but he's he's so much evolved like 52 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: they this generation below me the most involved. They care 53 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: about these things. Like my son, but one of his 54 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 1: best friends is trans. So we'd go and do all 55 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: of the activism for this because I'm trying to make 56 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: it a safe space for not just my kids, but 57 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,119 Speaker 1: all of the kids that live here. 58 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 3: Absolutely awesome, awesome, all right, So tell us a little 59 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 3: bit about the revolution or. 60 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 5: The Kentucky Like, how did that come together? 61 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: What are you all about? 62 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 1: A friend of mine was actually she started the revolution 63 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: and she decided to run for office this year, so 64 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: she had to hand over the reins of this nonprofit 65 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: and she contacted me and asked me if I'd be interested, 66 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: and I was like, I guess. 67 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 2: So we are awesome. 68 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 3: You know, we met you at the school board meeting 69 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 3: we went to in Boone County in September, where several 70 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 3: people including some current students, gave really passionate commentary, you know, 71 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 3: asking for respect and fairness when implementing the SBU one 72 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 3: fifty law in schools. So what are you all trying 73 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 3: to achieve? And have you had any wins? 74 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: So we started the board meeting portion of what we 75 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: do and let me just back up a little bit 76 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: about their Revolutions Act. In all of this, we have 77 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: decided to take on Moms for Liberty. We have a 78 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: chapter of Moms for Liberty that is operating in county. 79 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: So Moms for Liberty has been a pretty big or 80 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: the women, they're all the same people. They basically our 81 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: local Republican Party, the Moms for Liberty nonprofit, and another 82 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: nonprofit called We the people that are operating in Boone 83 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: County all are the same individuals, you know, we all 84 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: wear his same has. I'm a Democrat on the Executive Committee, 85 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: but I'm also the revolution here and I'm also just 86 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: a random lady that shows up and does them. So 87 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: these women have really been there's two or three of 88 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: them that have really been the face of pushing this 89 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: kind of hateful legislation and they've done a fantastic job. 90 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: But they've attached themselves to our state representative, Steve Browlings. 91 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: He helps sponsor some of the more heinous bills that 92 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: they've been trying to put through SB one fifty, for example. 93 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: The chair of Moms for Liberty is one of the 94 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: board members. We found out about them November twenty twenty two, 95 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: and that's when I started showing up at the board 96 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: meetings and talking out against banning books and talking out 97 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: against targeting specifically books that have to do with the 98 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: LGBTQ community, or books that have to do with immigrants, 99 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: or books that have to do with the racial history 100 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: in the United States. Those are the kinds of books 101 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: that were being targeted, and so we decided that we 102 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: were going to fight that. And then I got up 103 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: my hands on the revolution and I was like, here 104 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: we go. We're going to put this face to the 105 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: movement and I okay. So one of the things that 106 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: we did we didn't just we don't just show up 107 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: at board meetings. We as a group decided we were 108 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: going to get on the school based decision making councils 109 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: for all the schools that we can. So I'm currently 110 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: sitting on my daughter's school based decision making council. But 111 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: that's not enough. 112 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 4: You know. 113 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: Now I got connections with the principal, but who are 114 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: the superintendent, who are these other people? So I joined 115 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: another program called the District Ambassador program. That is the baby, 116 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: the rain child of our superintendent. And he doesn't want 117 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: anything terrible to happen to this program. So it's really 118 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: uncomfortable for him when I show up at these meetings 119 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: and say things like, what about SB one fifties implementation 120 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: in our schools. Whenever you're trying to talk about inclusivity programs, 121 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: you're doing right. He doesn't want to talk about that. 122 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 3: There is that the program that is on because we 123 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 3: were pushed to her by the Board of Education when 124 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 3: we asked to like talk to someone in the school. 125 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 3: They're like, here's a black person that is an ambassador, 126 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 3: and I'll be honest. She was very much like, look, 127 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 3: I sit here and I am the mouthpiece and we 128 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 3: don't care about this. And I felt that that was 129 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: sort of why she was chosen, was to be a 130 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 3: blackface that would go along with it. I mean, do 131 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 3: you feel like I mean you said, you know, when 132 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 3: you push back, that's an uncomfortable thing for the superintendent. 133 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 3: So like it was the do you feel like the 134 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: intent was just to have a group of people who 135 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 3: could make this look good even with the. 136 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: You know, sort of dirty laundry that the schools have. 137 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: This district and Ambassador program is absolutely designed to make 138 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: the school look good. It is a photo opportunity for 139 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: the super out with parents being like, Hey, this is 140 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: how the transportation department works and this is how the 141 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: funny and. 142 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: That's all great. I love that. 143 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: I love to know that, but also let's talk about 144 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: the real stuff, like the implementation of these horrible legislative, 145 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: hateful legislation that you're putting through. 146 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 2: So those are the real. 147 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: Conversations that I want to have with him, and that's 148 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: why I joined the program. Currently, I'm knocking doors. I'm 149 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: literally going door to door and being like, hey, I'm 150 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: a progressive running a progressive nonprofit. Vote for Andy Basheer. 151 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: And also, if you want to get involved in any 152 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: of the stuff that I'm doing, here's what I'm doing 153 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: and here's your opportunity to do it. So we've hit 154 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: sixty six thousand doors in Boone County this year, so 155 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: we you know, hitting the around run and me and 156 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: my kids go out every weekend. We spend Saturday and 157 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: Sunday about twenty four hours between the two days hitting 158 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: doors between now and the election. So that's the other 159 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: way I'm building my little coalition. 160 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 3: It's like, I just think incredibly heartening because I think, 161 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 3: you know, the sort of coastal elitism that I maybe 162 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 3: fall into, you know, like from the outside, I tend 163 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 3: to sometimes forget that like that is actually how things 164 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 3: get done, you know, like it requires boots on the ground, 165 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 3: It requires people speaking face to face. It's not about, 166 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 3: you know, just only being online and building those coalitions, 167 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 3: but it's really important to meet people because yeah, like 168 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 3: you know, I grew up in a place where I 169 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 3: didn't feel especially comfortable to speak out about what I 170 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 3: did believe in. And you know, I do know though 171 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 3: that there were others, and had I been more outgoing, 172 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 3: it probably would have been, I think better for all 173 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 3: of us. 174 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: I definitely think that specifically with the Rebel, I think 175 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: it would be interesting if you have you approached them 176 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: and asked them like, hey, let's do like an open 177 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: thing where the kids get to decide what the mascot is. 178 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: Let's make this an energizing thing for them. Because that's 179 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: currently what we're working on in Boone County schools. 180 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 3: We all agree that, like it would be best if 181 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 3: the students felt like it came from them, or like 182 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 3: it was something they at least had to say in 183 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 3: and especially with like the demographics changing in the school. 184 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 3: Would be the first to tell you, like, this isn't 185 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 3: the place you went to high school in the early 186 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 3: two thousands, Like it is diverse. Now everyone's included, and 187 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 3: I'm like, right, So the last step is to get 188 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 3: rid of this mascot. 189 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 2: It's a lot of just. 190 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 3: Like trying to push us away. And I think, you know, 191 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 3: partially I get it. I the principal was my fine 192 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: arts teacher in high school, and you know, I didn't 193 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 3: know her especially well, but I know that that's a 194 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 3: very scrutinized position. 195 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: To be in. 196 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 3: And you have very vocal parents who would probably show 197 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 3: up at meetings to be like, I like the Confederacy, 198 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 3: and no one's gonna tell them like that's ignorant. They 199 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 3: stood for something that was like deep human oppression, rape, genocide, 200 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 3: Like you know, they. 201 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: Don't care about that. That's their heritage. 202 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: And so the nice thing is you do have somebody 203 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: that will say that though I would be happy to 204 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: go to a Morgan and say those exact words on 205 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: your behalf or on the behalf of this movement, because 206 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: I don't have any problems saying it. 207 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 3: We'll be back with our next expanded interview after the break. 208 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 3: Next you get to hear a bit more from the 209 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 3: smooth voice of doctor Caleb Smith, who, as we shared 210 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 3: in the podcast, wrote his entire PhD dissertation on the 211 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 3: history of the Rebels mascot in the US and is 212 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 3: an absolute expert on the subject. He kindly gave us 213 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 3: almost forty five minutes of his time to share an 214 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 3: incredibly in depth history that offered me a great personal 215 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 3: education as I embarked on this journey, and I'm glad 216 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 3: we get to highlight some more of his incredible research. 217 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 6: I love this story. In Kirkland, Washington, Juanita High School 218 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 6: was built in the early seventies and they decided they 219 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 6: were going to do an experimental type of educational system 220 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 6: with really short periods of classes, lots of different classes 221 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 6: in really a varied from the norm. So from that 222 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 6: they decided to call themselves the Rebels, and they even 223 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 6: adopted like an Eagle as their image, even though they 224 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 6: were called the rebels, so it really rebels against everything. 225 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 6: But by nineteen eighty five there's a Confederate flag on 226 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 6: the front of their yearbook. 227 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like all roads for rebel lead to 228 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 3: Confederate crap. 229 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 6: But the sentiment in the American South, especially after Brown 230 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 6: versus Board of Education, was we're going to prevent education, 231 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 6: and we're going to do this in front of you, 232 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 6: but also symbolically through things like adopting a rebel mascot. 233 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 234 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 3: Wow, I mean it's fascinating to hear you say that, 235 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 3: because it's like, even now we're in this education war 236 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 3: with books being banned and bathrooms being banned for some 237 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 3: students and all of that, and it's like it seems 238 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 3: like what's old is new again always. So nineteen fifty four, 239 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 3: the Fed say, you guys got to integrate. 240 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 2: Black kids are coming to your schools. 241 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 3: We see protests with bussing, we see segregation academies. When 242 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 3: you look at the number of schools that become the rebels, 243 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 3: does that follow that same sort of trajectory. 244 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 6: We really see two waves of this. The first wave 245 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 6: was in the mid late fifties, right after Brown, and 246 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 6: that's mainly public schools, and they're trying to get across that. 247 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 6: I know the FEDS have said that they want to integrate, 248 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 6: but we have this dual system, and the dual system 249 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 6: was separate but definitely unequal. And so what school districts 250 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 6: and cities and states decided to do was, instead of 251 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 6: being separate but unequal, if we make the African American 252 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 6: accommodations comparable to the white ones, they're less prone to 253 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 6: won't to integrate. And so let's merge all the white 254 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 6: schools in our county or in this area and form 255 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 6: a new school and then we'll do the same thing 256 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 6: with the black schools in our county or in our city. 257 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 6: And so from that we'll have separate and equal and 258 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 6: they'll be less wont to try to integrate the schools, 259 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 6: and so the white schools would merge together and they 260 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 6: would become the rebels of Boyle County or whichever county 261 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,439 Speaker 6: it was. Into the nineteen sixties, though, it becomes evident 262 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 6: that the states and the school districts will have to integrate. 263 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 6: And with that it's realized, oh no, there's no way 264 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 6: that we can actually persist with this separate but equal, 265 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 6: and however you want to call that of a setup. 266 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 6: And so then they start moving kids to private schools, 267 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 6: especially in the Deep South. We'll see Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, 268 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 6: Louisiana start constructing these white flight academies from sixty eight 269 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 6: to about seventy two, and their hardline stance was, we 270 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 6: are forming just for white people, and if you are 271 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 6: not white, you cannot come to this school. And here 272 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 6: is our sign to you, this Confederate rebel on the 273 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 6: door saying you cannot come into this school. 274 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean yeah, I feel like it still 275 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 3: has that same effect, Like when I see it, I'm like, cool, 276 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 3: you guys do not want me here. 277 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 2: That is the subtext. 278 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 3: Can you talk about the original push around the eighties 279 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 3: when schools started to sort of acknowledge that, like this 280 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 3: mascot could be interpreted as an offensive thing to everyone. 281 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 2: Darker than a paper bag, you know, like, what did 282 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 2: that look like? 283 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: And sort of were their legal cases how did people 284 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 3: approach changing the mascot? 285 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 6: So there were there were several cases in the several 286 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 6: instances in the early nineteen seventies where people started to 287 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 6: challenge that, but it did not come to a head 288 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 6: until the eighties, and the two big most evident causes 289 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 6: of this. One was a man named John Hawkins, who 290 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 6: was the first African American lead cheerleader at the University 291 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 6: of Mississippi. And at that time, they flew the rebel 292 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 6: flag like the Confederate battle flag at the University of 293 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 6: its zippy and he said, I'm not going to carry 294 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 6: that flag. It doesn't represent me and it doesn't represent 295 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 6: what I believe in. I'm not going to do that. 296 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 6: And people were stunned that someone would stand up and 297 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 6: say that, and so that was the first real popular 298 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 6: culture reference to that. But then in the mid eighties, 299 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 6: also you have in Fairfax, Virginia, you have a case 300 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 6: where the principle there realizes that there's a problem that 301 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 6: there are African Americans in the school who don't salute 302 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 6: the flag or don't represent the flag, and this could 303 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 6: cause real issues. Now, Fairfax was a more forward thinking 304 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 6: and progressive town in the eighties than most other places 305 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 6: in the South, and so he bans the Confederate flag 306 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 6: and bans Confederate imagery to try to put out the 307 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 6: fire before it gets too big in the school. And 308 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 6: so from that case went all the way to the 309 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 6: Supreme Court about the question of freedom of speech of 310 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:03,119 Speaker 6: the students compared to trying to prevent problems from occurring 311 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 6: in an educational environment. And so that was the first 312 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 6: real big case that led to this change. There were 313 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 6: other schools that had kind of quietly changed, but not 314 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 6: very often, and so then into the early nineteen nineties, 315 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 6: you'll have a school here and a school there, and 316 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 6: then you'll get to like the Robney King and all that. 317 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 6: That really brought about the question of Okay, we claim 318 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 6: that we are in a post segregation, post racial America, 319 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 6: but we still have these issues. We have race riots 320 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 6: still going on. We have a Confederate battle flag flying 321 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 6: over the capital of South Carolina. Mississippi and Georgia both 322 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 6: have this flag on their state flag. And there are 323 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 6: schools that still use this Confederate imagery all the time. 324 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 6: And so we'll see in through the nineties that there'll 325 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 6: be some schools that will begin to address it. Mainly 326 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 6: outside the America can sell. Yeah, there's more of this, 327 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 6: I don't know, bond to the Colonel rib figure or 328 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 6: the Confederate figure in the South than there is outside. 329 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 2: Of the South. 330 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 331 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 3: And when we talk about the fifties and you have 332 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 3: this rebel showing up because they want us in a message. 333 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 3: This is also at the same time that you do 334 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 3: see Confederate monuments going up. You know, there was a 335 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 3: lull after the Civil War. Obviously he gets your ass 336 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 3: handed tea. You don't just like put up a sign. 337 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 3: But once the country is you know saying all right, 338 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 3: like Jim Crow is a problem, and now we need 339 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 3: to start addressing things more directly. And there's the civil 340 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 3: rights movement that is gaining momentum. We see this pushback 341 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 3: and so I kind of want to jump to now. 342 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 3: Twenty twenty was a reckoning of all sorts. We had 343 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 3: COVID Donald Trump was running for president again, and of 344 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 3: course George Floyd sort of ignited the Black Lives Matter 345 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 3: movement and this moment for racial reckoning in the country 346 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 3: and real talk about meritocracy and diversity and who we 347 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 3: want to be. And less than four years later, we're 348 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 3: in this backlash. 349 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: We're seeing thin. 350 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 3: Blue line monuments and you know, sort of this trump Ism, 351 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 3: which is really just sort of covert Confederacy warship. Do 352 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 3: you think that we're going to have people regress and 353 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 3: have more rebel mascots, or if people were agreeing to 354 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 3: get rid of a mascot. If that sort of progresses, 355 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,239 Speaker 3: do you think it will stop just based on the 356 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 3: history of how it happened last time, or do you 357 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 3: think that, you know, we will continue moving forward. 358 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 6: Since like nineteen ninety five, there have been zero schools 359 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 6: that have added a rebel mascot. Yeah, so from that 360 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 6: we at least see that that's enough of a hot 361 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 6: button issue or a questionable topic that no school since 362 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 6: ninety five has said, you know what, of all the mascots, 363 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 6: we could choose tigers and hawks and bears, we're gonna 364 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 6: go with the rebel because that one just seems really 365 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 6: no like no school has done since ninety five, And 366 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 6: so that shows a little bit of people at least 367 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 6: being cautious of what is actually represented with what they use. 368 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 6: The other part of that, though, is before you get 369 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 6: to twenty twenty, you got to get through twenty fifteen, 370 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 6: and twenty fifteen was the shooting at a Mother e 371 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 6: manual in Charleston and the stuff that came after that 372 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 6: and Charlottesville and everything else. There was that push right 373 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 6: after the shooting in Charleston, where oh, we've got to 374 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 6: make a change, We've got to do something, we really 375 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 6: have to reckon with this, and then it kind of 376 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 6: died down, and then you have this big pushback with Charlottesville, 377 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 6: which really kind of made it evident to people that 378 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 6: there are a lot of white supremacists still out there. 379 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 6: They have a lot of hate and a lot of anger. 380 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 6: And that kind of made America aware that even though 381 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 6: we thought we've moved past this, we really have it. 382 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 6: And so after twenty fifteen, there were several schools because 383 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 6: from say nineteen ninety six on, every year, every other year, 384 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 6: there may be a school that drops a rebel mascot. 385 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 6: So we go from about one hundred and seventy five 386 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 6: or one hundred and eighty schools to about one hundred 387 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 6: and sixty schools that have it about twenty twenty. Most 388 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 6: of those schools, though, changed it after the twenty fifteen 389 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 6: school year after Charleston, and most of those were also 390 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 6: outside of the American South. But then with twenty twenty 391 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 6: and George Floyd again, we see that people again come 392 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 6: to this reckoning of, oh, well, what kind of statement 393 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 6: are we making with this? And we see from not. 394 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 6: From twenty nineteen to twenty twenty one, rebels dropped almost thirty. 395 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 6: They're almost thirty schools in the United States that dropped 396 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 6: the term rebel because they realized this is a term 397 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 6: we don't really want to deal with anymore. In that 398 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 6: I've also classified and looked at what they're using their 399 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 6: term rebel. But from there we're also using what image. Yeah, 400 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 6: and so in twenty nineteen there were sixty eight Confederate 401 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 6: rebel mascots. In twenty twenty one, there's forty five. 402 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 7: Yeah. 403 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 6: So even the schools that are retaining the term rebel, 404 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 6: they're getting rid of their Confederate iconography. And it's not 405 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 6: just schools in Minnesota or in Colorado. It's schools in Mississippi, 406 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 6: in Louisiana and Alabama that are too. So I mean, 407 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 6: if Mississippi can change mis flag, it kind of shows 408 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 6: you whoa whoa. You know, if they're changing their flag, 409 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 6: there's something really serious that we need to look at 410 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 6: here and address this whole issue. 411 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm glad that you name check Mississippi. I 412 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 3: know that you are there. But also, like when I 413 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 3: look back at the civil rights movement and I have 414 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 3: a dream speech. 415 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 2: No one ever quotes the part where Martin Luther King. 416 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 3: Specifically calls out Mississippi for his racism, Like so, just 417 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 3: for context, like this is historically a place where it's 418 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 3: like chattel, slavery, racism, lack of representation for black people 419 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 3: in government. That would be the hotbed of the country 420 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 3: for it. So to your point, yes, the Deep South. 421 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 2: Has had this reckoning. 422 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 3: I'm curious what you think the reason is In a 423 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 3: place like Kentucky that did not fight for the Confederacy, 424 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 3: why even if they got rid of the mascot, they 425 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 3: would want to hold on to the rebel name. 426 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 6: Part of that comes from legacies and also from alumni, 427 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 6: so alumni play a big role in the meaning of 428 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 6: these decisions. This is not the first time I've been 429 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 6: asked or even talk to someone about changing a mascot. 430 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 6: And usually it's the old timers, the folks that used 431 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 6: to be here that are once a rebel, always a rebel, 432 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 6: is the term they like to use to describe this. 433 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 6: But in that there's also an opportunity for the students 434 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 6: who are there to set up a legacy, to start 435 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 6: a new image that they can look back on and 436 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 6: go you know what, we changed it. We moved from 437 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 6: that to that. So in Kentucky, the rebel I mean 438 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 6: there were people in Kentucky that fault for the Confederacy, yes, 439 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 6: but there are also others that fault for the Union. 440 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 6: But there comes a point where that rebellious image moves 441 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 6: away from the Confederacy and migrates more into a white 442 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 6: supremacy or just hey, African Americans and other brown people 443 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 6: stay out of our area sort of idealism. And it's 444 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 6: linked to power. It's linked to this reminder of remember 445 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 6: who's in charge. It are people who are in charge, 446 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 6: not your people. And then when you get to the 447 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 6: internet presence of schools, in public schools still have an 448 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 6: Internet presence, and that's how they build fan bases. But 449 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 6: that's also how when people move into an area, they're 450 00:23:58,440 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 6: going to do an Internet search and they're going to 451 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 6: fig figure out what this school is or what that 452 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 6: school is. And if I'm African American, I moved to 453 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 6: a place and I see this school is the rebels, 454 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 6: I want to be a little nervous about having my 455 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 6: kid go there. Absolutely, there's a school in Texas called 456 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 6: Evadell and Evadelle is probably the most egregious of the 457 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 6: rebel schools that I know. Their school emblem is the 458 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 6: Confederate battle flag as like a S. And it got 459 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 6: so bad that Google actually pulled their school website for 460 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 6: being a hate speech site because of that image of 461 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 6: the Confederate battle flag. 462 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 2: Damn, damn. 463 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 3: And that's what I'm saying, like, if the Internet can 464 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 3: I can recognize this, why is it like rocket science 465 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: for some educators? If the Internet is saying, hey, we 466 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 3: actually have to flag this, and that's a good point. 467 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 2: I was using an AI generator trying to see. 468 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 3: What a rebel without a caused mascot would even look like, 469 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 3: and I got flagged. 470 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 2: They were like, you're trying to make some racist crap. 471 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 4: I don't think. 472 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: So. 473 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 2: I think that there's like a level of just. 474 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 3: Like computer learning that already understands, you know, like this 475 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 3: is the intent behind this image, because we've seen it 476 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 3: in so many manifestos, and yet we have people earnestly 477 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 3: pushing back, is there a future without this crap? 478 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 6: Yes? There is. And I'll go back to the state 479 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 6: flag of Mississippi because in two thousand and one, we 480 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 6: had an election where we voted on whether we wanted 481 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 6: to keep the old Confederate battle flag on our state 482 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 6: flag or not. And so that in that election, it's 483 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 6: like almost two to one, we voted to keep the 484 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 6: old Confederate flag. Well, fast forward nineteen years, we had 485 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 6: another vote in twenty twenty, and in that vote two 486 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 6: to one in favor of a new flag instead of 487 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 6: no flag at all. And so from that we see 488 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 6: that the younger people who grow up in an integrated society, 489 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 6: they go to school with people of other ethnicities and 490 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 6: other races, that they are more willing to realize that 491 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 6: maybe this whole thing is not about me and my 492 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 6: race or however you want to find that, and instead, 493 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 6: let's see if we can include other people. Let's check 494 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 6: our racism at the door and see if we can 495 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 6: figure out, you know, is this really a good symbol 496 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 6: of everyone of the people of this school, district, or county, 497 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 6: or state or whatever. So there is hope. 498 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 3: Our final expanded interview is right after the break, when 499 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 3: I sat down to talk with journalists and activist Jamel Hill. 500 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 3: We were at a pretty low point in our process. 501 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 3: It felt like reaching Sean Alexander was an impossibility, and 502 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 3: we'd started to see what felt like a total stoppage 503 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 3: of progress towards change. However, after speaking with Jamel, I 504 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 3: felt such a new energy and hope for what was possible. 505 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 3: I wish he could coach me through every tough moment 506 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 3: in life. But for now, I hope you enjoy hearing 507 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 3: a bit more from our inspiring conversation. 508 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 7: Sports, politics, race, gender culture always have mixed, you know together. 509 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 7: I mean, Jackie Robinson integrated Major League Baseball in nineteen 510 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 7: forty seven. That was twenty years before we got the 511 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 7: Civil Rights Act, okay, And it's like often sports has 512 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 7: been placed in the intersection of these monumental changes, if 513 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 7: not led the way when it comes to change. And 514 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 7: one of the reasons I do write about the intersection 515 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 7: with sports and everything else. And we'll be having a 516 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 7: podcast coming out about politics specifically, thank you. But the 517 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 7: reason I write about it is because we're very segregated society. 518 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 7: Sports is actually one of the few activities Americans still 519 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 7: do together. You know, the Olympics are going on as 520 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 7: if we were requiring this podcast. Everybody and a mama, 521 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 7: regardless of economics, regardless of rage, gender, all room for 522 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 7: some own biles. So that's the entry point that sports 523 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 7: gives you is that you can have different people across 524 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 7: different backgrounds who are a fan of the same thing, 525 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 7: and if that issue that maybe they feel apathetic toward, 526 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 7: or maybe they feel one particular way about. If that 527 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 7: issue inter sports, they're able to see the issue much 528 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 7: clearer I think than they would maybe into some other 529 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 7: places that they might in society. So writing about sports 530 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 7: in that manner, talking about sports in that manner was always, 531 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 7: you know, important to me because I saw how powerful 532 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 7: those intersections could be. 533 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 3: Is there a real upside to speaking up in sports? 534 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 3: And obviously, like I think that, like you're saying, like 535 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 3: the Olympics are an outliar, I would say, also like 536 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 3: the NBA allows their players to be much more vocal. 537 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 3: But like in your mind, is there's still an upside 538 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 3: to speaking out? 539 00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 7: Well, I think I think there is upside, and often 540 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 7: we talk about the downsides. I would argue that black 541 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 7: people are the most patriotic because we're the ones who 542 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 7: have had so many rights denied and yet still fought 543 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,719 Speaker 7: for the country anyway. 544 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 4: I mean, we're the ones. 545 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 7: I don't say this to certainly be arrogant about it, 546 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 7: or to imply that other marginalized groups aren't working as well. 547 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 7: But we are forcing America to account like, oh no, no, 548 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 7: but you said liberty for all, right, so you mean 549 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 7: all and we're holding them to that. And sometimes there 550 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 7: are people who don't like the fact that we hold 551 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 7: them to that. But I do think the sports audience 552 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 7: has changed. I think they now, especially younger people, they 553 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 7: kind of want to know what these athletes are about. 554 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 7: Like they want to know, do you stand for something 555 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 7: or are you just about making money or what are 556 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 7: you doing beyond that. What I have enjoyed about covering 557 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 7: this generation of athletes is that I don't think that 558 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 7: they are necessarily following that model that sort of my 559 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 7: shortened gave for the the. 560 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:03,479 Speaker 1: Republicans choose too. 561 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 7: I don't think that today's athlete is really doing that. 562 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 7: I mean that's gen Z in general. It's like they 563 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 7: you know, they're very they're very outspoken with how they 564 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 7: feel about things, and I think that's overall, that's like 565 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 7: a very good thing. Sometimes what prevents people from speaking 566 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 7: out is just feeling ostracized, because then people know, like, oh, 567 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 7: you're right those you just you speak out, you have opinions, 568 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 7: you you're gonna make us challenge something people are hesitant 569 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 7: to change, even though their walll is hell. And when 570 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 7: you become the person who speaks out against something, especially 571 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 7: that's something they look at as traditional, it can go bad. 572 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 7: I get torn about this when I asked, like, should 573 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 7: athletes speak up? Because generally they are afforded with a 574 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 7: platform with a certain amount of privilege that most people 575 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 7: don't have. 576 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 4: As a journalist is one of the big reasons I 577 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 4: became one. 578 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 7: It's like your whole your whole ideology should be you're 579 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 7: supposed to afflict the comfortable and. 580 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 2: Comfort the afflicted. 581 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 7: We learn that a journalism school that is the job, 582 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 7: right and with athletes, that's not necessarily the job. But 583 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 7: they are in a special position, especially as a black athlete, 584 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 7: and especially to be able to have some conversations with 585 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 7: some people who might not ordinarily understand why something is wrong. 586 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 4: They're in a unique position. 587 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 7: But even after they have moved on from the game, 588 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 7: there's still business opportunities, there's still alumni connections, there's still 589 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 7: other things that they have to consider. I mean, listen, 590 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 7: there's plenty of days where my Twitter mentions look like 591 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 7: a it is it gets as you're right, you understand it. 592 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 7: And it gets it gets old, I mean it really does. 593 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 7: It gets old, It gets tiring, it gets exhausting. But 594 00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 7: I push through because I feel like that the people 595 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 7: that maybe you know, ride in with their hoods into 596 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,719 Speaker 7: my mentions. I like to think they're the minority and 597 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 7: there's a majority that's just silent but in agreement, right, 598 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 7: And so I try to kind of keep this in 599 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 7: mind and not let them get what they want, which 600 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 7: is ultimately to keep whiet. The truth is it just 601 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 7: sort of speaks to of the many things that are 602 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 7: wrong in this country, is that, you know, I often 603 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 7: make this comparison to Germany. One anything, well, swastika is 604 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 7: are illegal number one. And any remnants of Adolf Hitler, Yeah, 605 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 7: they tore down. 606 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 2: They don't have museum statutes. 607 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,719 Speaker 7: You know, they paved over the street where he lived, 608 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 7: no statues. 609 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 4: They do not do that. 610 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 7: But only here do we name schools after people who 611 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 7: were traders, after Reece's the bridge that John Lewis, the 612 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 7: Great John Lewis walked over. I need people to look 613 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 7: up who Epipetes is. Emmi Pettes was a like he 614 00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 7: was one of the higher ups in the Klan. Why 615 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 7: do we have, and it's even worse that symbolically of 616 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 7: what role that bridge played in the fight for voting rights. 617 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 7: It's like you had, you know, hundreds of black peaceful 618 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 7: protesters who were John Lewis among them, who were nearly 619 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 7: killed on that bridge trying to get advocate for black 620 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 7: people to have voting rights. 621 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 4: So again, why do we have a bridge righted after him? 622 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 7: And you could go anywhere in America, whether it be 623 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 7: a school, a church, a street. 624 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 4: We don't denounce our racism. We build monuments to it. 625 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 3: I know in my heart you understand the Rebels is 626 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 3: a racist team name like we had a Confederate General 627 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 3: mascot named mister Rebel. 628 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 2: There was no confusing what the intention was there. 629 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 3: And so whether Sean admits it or is willing to 630 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 3: fight for the change or not, we understand that that 631 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 3: is true. So do you have any words of encouragement 632 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 3: for me or for someone else trying to change a 633 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 3: mascot to keep going in pursuit of something better, for 634 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 3: the students of Booon County High School and just people 635 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 3: who want to be sports fans in general. 636 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 7: Well, you said the number one piece of advice is 637 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 7: to keep going and I know that seems like really 638 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 7: simple words, but they're powerful words because a lot of 639 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 7: things don't happen because it was hard to muster up 640 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 7: the resolve to continue to do something. 641 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 4: That was always going to be a fight. 642 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 7: What you are doing trying to do is difficult, but 643 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 7: that's okay. But that's also why you need to keep going, 644 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 7: and more importantly, have people who are supportive around you, 645 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 7: who as you go through the layers of this fight, 646 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 7: that will give you the fuel to continue it. Somebody 647 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 7: has heard you, for sure, somebody will hear you. And 648 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 7: you also want to think about these next generation of students, 649 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 7: like you were a student that had to live under 650 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 7: the guys of this awful racist nickname and mascot. Maybe 651 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 7: there is a student that will graduate twenty years from 652 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 7: now that will not be their reality. Maybe thirty forty years, 653 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 7: thirty forty years from now, a student will say, what. 654 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 4: They really did my dream right right? It's like maybe. 655 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 7: And that's what this has got to be about, is 656 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,399 Speaker 7: when it comes to these fights, it's not just about us. 657 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 7: It's about how this isn't impacting the generations after us, 658 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 7: and those generations are looking at us, they're going to 659 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 7: want to know. 660 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 4: What did you do to stop this? 661 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 2: What did you do? 662 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 7: How did you stand in these fork in the road moments? 663 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 7: And you can say I stood against this, I didn't 664 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 7: want this, and I tried to galmanize others to do it. 665 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 7: So keep going, continue to shield yourself with the supportive tribe, 666 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 7: and know that what you're doing it's going to change 667 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 7: the trajectory for somebody. Somebody one day is never going 668 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 7: to see that rest. 669 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 3: Even sharing these expanded interviews can't begin to cover how 670 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,320 Speaker 3: many people were generous enough to share their time. I'm 671 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 3: their expertise, their support and general excitement for my journey. 672 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 3: I have met some incredible people throughout this process and 673 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 3: will be forever grateful to everyone who participated in my 674 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 3: biscuit fueled quest for positive change. Rebel Spirit is a 675 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 3: production of Ninth Planet Audio and association. 676 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,399 Speaker 2: With iHeart Podcasts. 677 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 5: Reporting and writing by me Akuila Hughes. 678 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 3: I'm also an executive producer and the host. Produced by 679 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 3: Dan Sinker, edited by Josie A. 680 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 2: Zahm Our. 681 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 5: Assistant editor is Jennifer Dean. 682 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 3: Music composed by Charlie Sun, Sound design and mixing by 683 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 3: Josie azam Our. Production coordinator is Kyle Hinton, Our clearance 684 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 3: coordinator is Anna Sun and Shine production accounting by Dill Pretzing, 685 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 3: additional research support from Janis Dillard. Special thanks to Jay 686 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 3: Becker and the whole team at BLDG, the Florence Yawls, 687 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 3: Amber Hoffmann and Leslie Chambers. Executive producers for Ninth Planet 688 00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 3: Audio are Elizabeth Baquett and Jimmy Miller 689 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: To