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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to Stuff I've

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Speaker 1: Never told you. Hello, lovely listeners. I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: give a quick update on what's going on with the

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Speaker 1: podcasts and to thank you all for being patient and

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Speaker 1: sticking with us. Due to the chaos that was the

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Speaker 1: end of the year and a lot of shifting pieces

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Speaker 1: and lots of traveling on both of our ends, I

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Speaker 1: banked up a lot of episodes with guest hosts and

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Speaker 1: a lot of classic episodes before Bridget announced that she

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Speaker 1: was sadly going to be leaving the show. So when

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Speaker 1: you're hearing these episodes with guest host and classics over

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Speaker 1: the next coming weeks and you're like, but wait, what's

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Speaker 1: going on. It's the magic of podcasting and scheduling. It's

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Speaker 1: not like those TV shows where a character has just

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Speaker 1: gone on and everyone pretends they never existed. Bridget will

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Speaker 1: be greatly greatly, greatly greatly missed, and she's gonna you're

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Speaker 1: gonna hear from her. She's moving on to some cool

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Speaker 1: projects and I'm really excited for her and for you

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Speaker 1: to check them out, and you'll hear from her some

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Speaker 1: more on this show. Stuff I've Never Told You is

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Speaker 1: going to go on and we have some really cool

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Speaker 1: stuff in the work, so please stay tuned. I truly

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Speaker 1: am so thrilled to have y'all wonderful listeners and to

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Speaker 1: be a part of this community and to continue to

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Speaker 1: learn and grow with all of you. For today's classic,

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Speaker 1: I want to replay this episode all about that wonderful

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Speaker 1: relationship that is the work wife. I've been so lucky

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Speaker 1: to have amazing work wives in my life. Happy listening,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you from House stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen,

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and and I hope that this isn't

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Speaker 1: a too forward of a question to ask you in

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Speaker 1: a public forum. But I mean, do you think that

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Speaker 1: we're each other's work wives? Yeah? Yeah, I mean I

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Speaker 1: think so. We We work closely together. We see each

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Speaker 1: other outside of work. If anything weird is happening at work,

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Speaker 1: we're probably going to take a walk and talk about it.

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Speaker 1: We go pick up coffee together, We go downstairs and

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Speaker 1: shop at Jake Crew together. We have, thanks to you,

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Speaker 1: matching angry liberal feminists kill joy coffee mugs. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if we can get much work wife

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Speaker 1: eer than we are now no, we're the wife eist.

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Speaker 1: So basically this podcast should just be called work wives. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: welcome back, and not sister wise No no, no, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we get a lot of confused listeners different something. So

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Speaker 1: was really interested to read about the whole work spouse

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Speaker 1: relationship because there are so many ways that you can

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Speaker 1: cut it, whether it is like a really close work

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Speaker 1: friend or the work wife who or work husband who

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Speaker 1: might make your actual wife or husband nervous like your

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Speaker 1: coworkers nervous. Um. I love workplace relationship chats. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I I do think that there are some things,

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk about this that can certainly complicate a

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Speaker 1: work spouse relationship. A lot of those things do have

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Speaker 1: to do with if your sexual orientations match each other's.

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Speaker 1: Caroline minds do not don't know? Um at my last job, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, aside from dude roommate who's like my life

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Speaker 1: work spouse and he's your life wife, he is, Um,

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Speaker 1: I did have another work spouse who is a gay man,

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Speaker 1: and so that makes off any like potential conflict or

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Speaker 1: jealousy with a partner. Although when all we want to

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Speaker 1: do is spend time together. I guess that there's a

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Speaker 1: little bit of jealousy. But then you've also got to

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Speaker 1: worry too about you know, do other coworkers feel excluded?

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Speaker 1: Do they feel like they're being left out? Is your

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Speaker 1: work spouse possibly casting you in a negative light by association?

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Speaker 1: I know you're just going around spewing terrible things out

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Speaker 1: of your mouth. Part that's gonna badly on the person

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Speaker 1: you spent all your time with. Yeah, like when when

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Speaker 1: Matt and I ran around our old office putting googly

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Speaker 1: eyes on everything. I mean, well, we were doing that together,

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Speaker 1: so we reflected poorly on each other. Yeah, I'm just imagining,

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Speaker 1: like if Billy Eichner from Billy on the Street wererior

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Speaker 1: or your work wife, because he's just so so loud,

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Speaker 1: always yelling. I I was the one of my last

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Speaker 1: job who got in trouble for being loud. I did

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Speaker 1: have the the boss, like the boss boss come in

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Speaker 1: to the break room and tell me that my laugh

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Speaker 1: harried so well. I hope you responded, Actually, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: carry it, Carolines, don't call me carry I'll fire myself now,

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Speaker 1: thank you. So, before we get to our our work

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Speaker 1: spouse situation, in our millennial workplaces, why don't we talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about how it used to be, because actually,

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Speaker 1: you know, the whole work spouse thing or at least

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Speaker 1: like work bestie is less common than it was. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which to me almost feels counterintuitive because I feel like

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Speaker 1: we spend so much more time working. The forty hour

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Speaker 1: work week is something that I aspired to. Um. And

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Speaker 1: you know, when you when you work in those kind

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Speaker 1: of nebulous creative and digital fields, your work is never

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Speaker 1: done and also you can do it any time at

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Speaker 1: any place, and so there is that issue of seven

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Speaker 1: connectivity as well. Um. But yeah, we were looking at

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Speaker 1: one study that showed and this is something cited by

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Speaker 1: Adam Grant in the New York Times. But yeah, the

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Speaker 1: studies show that in nine about half of Americans said

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Speaker 1: they had a close friend at work, and by two

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Speaker 1: thousand four this was true for only thirty percent. And

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Speaker 1: that's crazy. With how much time we've been working, why

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Speaker 1: don't we have more work friends? And we even see

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Speaker 1: that stat reflected in younger people's expectations of their work

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Speaker 1: environment and what their work friendship situation is going to be.

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Speaker 1: So in that same study that Grant cited UH. In

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Speaker 1: two thousand and six, just fort of American high school

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Speaker 1: seniors thought that it was very important to find a

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Speaker 1: job where they could make friends. That had been fifty

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Speaker 1: four percent in nineteen seventy six. Because even though we're

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Speaker 1: spending more time at work, we're I don't know, we're

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Speaker 1: just like efficiency machines or something. Oh god, I think

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Speaker 1: it's the opposite. Um, I think us spending more time

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Speaker 1: at work is less efficient. But let's now refer people

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Speaker 1: to our bossed up episod with guest Emily Aries for

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Speaker 1: more on that. Um. But to me, it does make

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Speaker 1: sense that we have d prioritized work friendships because our

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Speaker 1: entire approach to work and the workplace in general has

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Speaker 1: changed so much for people in our generation and obviously

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Speaker 1: will continue changing for younger folks as well, because, for one,

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Speaker 1: long term employment is no longer the aspirational goal, where

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Speaker 1: you will work at ex company for forty years, they'll

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Speaker 1: give you your knockoff role X. I was about to say,

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Speaker 1: a rolodex. You can wear that on your wrist. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'd be like a neat little bracelet heavy look at

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Speaker 1: my charm bracelet of despair. But of course that's not

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Speaker 1: reality anymore. I mean, as soon as the recession hit,

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Speaker 1: I feel like we millennials do not expect to be

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Speaker 1: in jobs typically more than like five years. Yeah, well

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean you've got the positive and negative

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Speaker 1: side of that, Like we as a generation want to

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Speaker 1: do the thing that makes us happy. We want to

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Speaker 1: chase down happiness. We're not taught. We don't feel like

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Speaker 1: we need to be loyal to a company for fifty years.

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Speaker 1: It's not one of our top priorities. Instead of us

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Speaker 1: us the tapping into our passions Caroline right, passion jobs

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Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean we you know, I was at

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Speaker 1: my first job out of college for four years amid

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Speaker 1: the recession, and I couldn't really leave while that was

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Speaker 1: happening because I knew it wouldn't be able to get

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Speaker 1: a job. But once I did, catapulted right out of there. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I've been at hell Stuff Works going on eight years.

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Speaker 1: So you're almost at that gold Rolodex. Yeah, I've almost

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Speaker 1: got a gold millennial. Yeah, a gold Rolodex. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: if my job were a child, it would be in

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Speaker 1: late elementary school. Yeah, and packing its own lunch. So

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Speaker 1: that's good. Yeah, I mean Mamma got time for that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: at least it's a little little less hands on. Um,

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Speaker 1: but in ah into the fact that we don't necessarily

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Speaker 1: stick around in one place. We we job hop in

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Speaker 1: ways like never before. Teleworking also means less face to

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Speaker 1: face communication, although I do feel like, Wow, I don't

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Speaker 1: interface with people all that often in my job because

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Speaker 1: I do telework. You and I both tell a work

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Speaker 1: fairly often. But thanks to slack, g chat and text

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Speaker 1: in texting I think that's what they call it texting,

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Speaker 1: we are always still communicating. Yeah, exactly. And one study

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Speaker 1: did show that, and this was a huge study that

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Speaker 1: as long as you were in the office at least

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Speaker 1: two and a half days a week, and that applies

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Speaker 1: to us, it won't have a negative effect on your

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Speaker 1: work relationships. You know, you'll still have you can still

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Speaker 1: be buddy buddy with people at work, just maybe not

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Speaker 1: have a work spouse per se. Yeah, I don't think

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Speaker 1: that our work Boston marriage has suffered from our teleworking. No, No,

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Speaker 1: not by any means. Um. You've also got the issue

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Speaker 1: of social media allowing us to remain connected with old friends,

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Speaker 1: college friends, whatever. So perhaps there is less of a

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Speaker 1: drive especially if you're just at work, keeping your head down,

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Speaker 1: working for the weekend, because you know that you know,

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Speaker 1: when you get to that weekend, you'll probably be able

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Speaker 1: to visit with friends that you've been able to keep

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Speaker 1: up with on the internet. And I'm wondering with all

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Speaker 1: of this keeping our heads down and working for the weekend.

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Speaker 1: You know, I wouldn't ever accuse the millennial generation of

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Speaker 1: having a Protestant work ethic per se, but I mean

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Speaker 1: we do have lingering aspects of that in order to

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Speaker 1: make it to the vacation, to make it to the

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Speaker 1: long holiday weekend or whatever. And of course, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're wondering what the Protestant work ethic is and

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Speaker 1: you've been under a rock for hundreds of years, uh,

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Speaker 1: it comes from Martin Luther preaching that hard work and

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Speaker 1: any occupation was a meaningful duty. It was a calling

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Speaker 1: from God. And then John Calvin of you know Calvin

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Speaker 1: as them, uh Calvin Klein, not Calvin Klein, Yeah, John

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Speaker 1: Calvin Klein. But you could argue that John Calvin's underwear

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Speaker 1: were the original Calvin's the original sin oh uh yeah.

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Speaker 1: So Calvin argued that people needed to avoid socializing while

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Speaker 1: working because you've got to put all of your attention

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Speaker 1: and effort into fulfilling God's will through your work. And so,

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Speaker 1: you know, let's gloss over a whole bunch of history

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Speaker 1: and condense a bunch of stuff into a really simplistic statement,

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Speaker 1: which is basically, like white Protestant guys, we're the ones

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Speaker 1: have been the ones in power forever in this country.

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Speaker 1: And they're the ones who are the CEOs of offices traditionally,

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Speaker 1: and so you have this ingrained culture of put your

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Speaker 1: head down and get your work done. But what more

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Speaker 1: recent research is finding, and I think what newer companies

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Speaker 1: are facilitating, is how jobs are more satisfying when they

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Speaker 1: provide social opportunities, you know. I mean just think about

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Speaker 1: the Google Plex and all of the amenities that it has,

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Speaker 1: you know, for whether it is like free sushi. My

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Speaker 1: mind is always goes to the sushi. I want that

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Speaker 1: Google Sushi so badly. Um, but they'll have you know,

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Speaker 1: like video game rooms where you and your you know,

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Speaker 1: pro grammars can go chill ax and play some duck hunt.

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Speaker 1: I've clearly I've never been in that space before. Christen's

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Speaker 1: actually never left the house before. We're community. This is

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Speaker 1: all via the magic of the Internet that we're communicating. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I mean even that goes back to what you

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Speaker 1: were saying about more time spend at work isn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: more efficient. I mean, I think giving people those perks

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Speaker 1: at work to make them happier is important, and it

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Speaker 1: creates a happier workspace, which logically, so the logic goes,

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Speaker 1: should make them better workers. But if we are just

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Speaker 1: working for the weekend with like our twisted millennial so

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Speaker 1: to speak, Protestant work ethic, you know, if we're not

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Speaker 1: taking the time to form those friendships and to enjoy

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Speaker 1: duck hunt and sushi at work, then we won't be

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Speaker 1: as happy as we could be. That's what researchers argue. Also,

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Speaker 1: those are my new like that is my work life

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Speaker 1: balance skull. Some duck hunt and sushi yea at my

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Speaker 1: job just a regular Tuesday afternoon fall haf What is

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Speaker 1: not my work life balance skull nor anyone's. I don't

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Speaker 1: I don't know that anyone actually likes this is the

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Speaker 1: toxic work environment. Yeah. And so to further drive home,

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Speaker 1: which is what we're going to be doing throughout this podcast,

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Speaker 1: to further drive home the importance of having that positive,

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Speaker 1: healthy work environment. We need to look at a study

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Speaker 1: that came out in from recruiting firm Cornerstone on Demand

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Speaker 1: and Northwestern University that looked into what being part of

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Speaker 1: a toxic work environment does for us. Because as much

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Speaker 1: as a happy work environment can contribute to our productivity,

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Speaker 1: toxic work environments, as anyone who's ever had a job

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Speaker 1: out there can attest to, that really takes away from

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Speaker 1: our productivity. So the study found that three to five

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Speaker 1: of all employees are fired for toxic behavior related reasons,

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Speaker 1: or I guess that's three to five percent of all

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Speaker 1: plays who are fired, not just like Kristen today, it's

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Speaker 1: you because you had because you're toxic um And those

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Speaker 1: reasons could be things like misconduct even drug or alcohol

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Speaker 1: abuse on the job, sexual harassment, and to have a

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Speaker 1: toxic coworker. And I have worked with someone at an

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Speaker 1: old job who did abuse substances at the office and

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Speaker 1: trust me, it made things a little tense. Uh. That

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Speaker 1: toxic behavior does increase the likelihood that they're colleagues will

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Speaker 1: themselves then engage in toxic bus basically because maybe they

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Speaker 1: feel resentful or they just feel threatened or something, or

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Speaker 1: they'll just quit. So that the way that your environment

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Speaker 1: is shaped and feels at work absolutely affects everybody. And

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Speaker 1: having friends at work, even if they're not best friends,

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Speaker 1: but for sure, if you have a work spouse or two,

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Speaker 1: because again we're getting into sister work spouses, a little polygamy,

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Speaker 1: polygamy that can contribute to helping people want to stay yeah,

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Speaker 1: and maybe providing a buffer from that toxicity, because as

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Speaker 1: anyone who has worked in a toxic environment knows, it

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Speaker 1: spreads like a virus. It does so quickly, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: take much. I my first job out of college was

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Speaker 1: at the newspaper, and you know, I came on staff

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Speaker 1: with such you know, a glimmer in my eye, like

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Speaker 1: so excited, uh totally naive uh um. And one of

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Speaker 1: the first people I met was this woman who you know,

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Speaker 1: came off as very nice and funny and welcoming, and

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Speaker 1: then it just our relationship and I came to find

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Speaker 1: out that it was her relationship with everyone became one

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Speaker 1: of those toxic relationships because she loved to gossip, She

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Speaker 1: loved to uh pit people against each other. It was

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Speaker 1: just really unhealthy. But it I watched, and I can

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Speaker 1: especially see it now looking back watches. It just infected

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Speaker 1: everybody because it's hard to escape that negativity. Well, and

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Speaker 1: that brings us back to the positive role of a

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Speaker 1: work spouse or just a work bestie. If spouse feels

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Speaker 1: like too much of a commitment, you know, just say

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Speaker 1: um so. This research is coming from in the European

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Speaker 1: Business Review, because we are continental like that, like croissants. Yes, indeed,

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Speaker 1: we are the Croissans of podcasters. Um so. Researchers have

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Speaker 1: consistently found that employees who are friendlier work well together,

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Speaker 1: no big surprise, and a link has also been found

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Speaker 1: between relationship factors like cooperation and social support and team productivity.

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Speaker 1: So basically, like nice people work better together and more

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Speaker 1: productively together. Exactly. Not to say that there's anything wrong

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Speaker 1: with like the occasional like lunch break cavetching session, but

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Speaker 1: when people who work together genuinely like each other, I

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Speaker 1: think it definitely adds to the environment. And plus, people

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Speaker 1: who say they have friends at work, according to this research,

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Speaker 1: are happier on the job. They report higher satisfaction, more cohesion,

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Speaker 1: more commitment to the company, and less intention to leave.

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Speaker 1: Even though, as we were talking about earlier getting that

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Speaker 1: gold watch or for millennials, gold rolodex is totally antiquated,

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Speaker 1: but it does make it a little bit emotionally anyway,

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Speaker 1: a little bit harder to leave when you are b

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Speaker 1: a fefts or in a work spouse type relationship with someone,

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Speaker 1: because because you don't want to let them down. You know,

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Speaker 1: I remember when dude roommate was leaving his old job.

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Speaker 1: You know, he was he was going to be making

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Speaker 1: a better and more positive stuff for himself career wise,

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Speaker 1: but he did feel connected to so many of his

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Speaker 1: work friends and you don't want to leave them holding

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Speaker 1: the bag. But I mean, eventually, you know, you've got

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Speaker 1: to take the job. It's better for you, and hopefully

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Speaker 1: your work spouse is supportive. Well yeah, it's just so

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Speaker 1: much time spent together too, on the emotional ups and

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Speaker 1: downs of the workplace. I know, like who's bringing in lunch?

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Speaker 1: Are you gonna get food poisoning from the work pot luck?

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Speaker 1: And if you work at dunder Mifflin, for instance, it's

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Speaker 1: always you know who's dating who this week? You know,

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Speaker 1: did Dwight put Jim's sandwich in a funny place? Is

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Speaker 1: Pam still silently just staring at the back of Jim's

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Speaker 1: head because she can't tell him how she really feels. Pam, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Pam Jam. And here's the thing. If you're Michael Scott, though,

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Speaker 1: at the Michael Scott of your office, your boss is

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Speaker 1: not into coworker friendships and relationships, is a little suspect

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Speaker 1: or even hostile toward them. That's probably not a good

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Speaker 1: sign about your boss. It's probably a sign that you

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Speaker 1: might have a Michael Scott yeah, because right. A lot

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Speaker 1: of the research we read pointed out that, Okay, on

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Speaker 1: the surface level work friendships, they might signal a lack

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Speaker 1: of productivity because if you're chatting, if you're grabbing maybe

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Speaker 1: a long lunch, if you're doing this or that, your

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Speaker 1: boss might look at that and say, well, why aren't

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Speaker 1: you working? But according to Gallop, back from when they

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Speaker 1: did a deep dive into factors that make workers more productive,

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Speaker 1: they found that employers who recognize the role that close

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Speaker 1: friendships play in terms of fostering productivity, they're gonna be

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Speaker 1: on the better end of things. They are gonna basically,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, be rewarded for helping people foster those

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Speaker 1: friendships because their workers will be happier and therefore more

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Speaker 1: productive versus your kind of stick in the mud boss

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Speaker 1: who you know, maybe walks into the brake room and

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Speaker 1: tells you you're too loud because you're laughing at your

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Speaker 1: work spouse because your laughter carolinees too far. But the

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Speaker 1: question then is whether there's a difference in having friendly,

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Speaker 1: casual acquaintances versus the work bestie or work spouse. Because

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Speaker 1: with casual work friends, I mean, they kind of require

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Speaker 1: less maintenance and are less likely to be a distraction,

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Speaker 1: and they can also be a sounding board, foster teamwork,

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Speaker 1: and help get stuff done without the sense of obligation

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Speaker 1: associated with off the clock best friends. But there's a

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Speaker 1: wrinkle in this. Yeah. So this study by management professors

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Speaker 1: at the University of Pennsylvania and the University of Minnesota

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Speaker 1: found that when they had people complete a task, they

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Speaker 1: either had acquaintances or they had work friends work spouses. Basically,

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Speaker 1: friends outperformed acquaintances every time. And there's some critical factors

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Speaker 1: in this. Like we said, when it comes to leaving

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Speaker 1: a company, like quitting a company, your work spouse is

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Speaker 1: going to make it harder because you feel that sense

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Speaker 1: of loyalties. So those friends were more committed at the

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Speaker 1: start of the project. They showed better communication throughout the project.

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Speaker 1: They offered their teammates positive encouragement every step along the way.

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Speaker 1: But they also, based on the strong foundation of their friendship,

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Speaker 1: didn't feel like they could not offer criticism. If they

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Speaker 1: saw that one of their teammates was about to do

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Speaker 1: something bone headed, they could say, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that's the right way to do it. What

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Speaker 1: about this? They could give each other that honest, open feedback.

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Speaker 1: Whereas when they looked at how the acquaintances who were

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Speaker 1: paired up were working, they were across the board held

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Speaker 1: back by lack of communication. They appeared to prefer working alone,

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Speaker 1: They were less comfortable seeking help, and they resisted pointing

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Speaker 1: out when a coworker was about to make a mistake.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like that friendship helps bolster the work

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Speaker 1: that's being done. Yeah, I mean, and this makes me

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Speaker 1: think of Myers Briggs tests, and I would be curious

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Speaker 1: to see how people who had those strong workplace friendships

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Speaker 1: might differ in personality traits versus acquaintance type people, because

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Speaker 1: there's like a little bit of an acquaintance in me,

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Speaker 1: like my my solo homeschooler self. Um, you know, as

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Speaker 1: a kid has definitely like come along with me as

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Speaker 1: I've aged. But I also know that I need like

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Speaker 1: the collaboration. Yeah, and you know matching feminist coffee mugs.

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Speaker 1: I know we do collaborate. You know, we stop, we

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Speaker 1: collaborate and we listen. Oh we do, we do. And

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Speaker 1: all of this is backed up again by that Gallop

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Speaker 1: study that found that workers who said they had a

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Speaker 1: best friend at work, We're way more likely to enjoy

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Speaker 1: some pretty cool perks. They were way more likely to

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Speaker 1: report having received praiser recognition for their work in the

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Speaker 1: past week. Uh, way more likely to say that someone

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Speaker 1: at work encourages their development. Uh. They were thirty more

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Speaker 1: likely to report coworker commitment to quality basically the positivity

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Speaker 1: and productivities off the charts for people who say, yes,

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Speaker 1: I have a work spouse slash BFF slash whatever, because

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Speaker 1: I don't think Gallup used the term work spouse well

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Speaker 1: and even to the point this jumped out the fact

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Speaker 1: that they were also seven percent more likely to report

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Speaker 1: that their company's mission makes them feel their job is important,

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Speaker 1: because that kind of commitment, you know, in that belief

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Speaker 1: in the company bottom line you know, is to me

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Speaker 1: would be a hallmark of an outstand like out standingly

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Speaker 1: positive company culture. Yeah. Well, because I mean, hopefully, with

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Speaker 1: all the factors we've talked about, hopefully this means that

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Speaker 1: you do have a boss who is open to letting

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Speaker 1: these work relationships flourish, and you do have opportunities for

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Speaker 1: that open and honest collaboration where you can bounce ideas

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Speaker 1: off of each other while you play duck hunt and

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Speaker 1: eat your sushi. Um, you know, because otherwise I feel

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Speaker 1: like a lot of creativity can be stifled if you

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Speaker 1: don't let people have those relationships. I had a job where, uh,

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Speaker 1: the boss. It was a very small company, and the

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Speaker 1: boss was super not okay with people talking with each other. Uh,

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Speaker 1: God help you if she found you out of your desk,

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Speaker 1: she was just convinced that anyone who was having a conversation,

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Speaker 1: even if it was to blow off steam or you

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Speaker 1: were just literally on your way back from the bathroom

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Speaker 1: or something, she just convinced you were like plotting against

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Speaker 1: the company and not working. Yeah, and so you can

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Speaker 1: imagine like creativity definitely hit a ceiling at that place.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, we're gonna move on. From just talking about

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Speaker 1: my work history and dive a little bit more into

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Speaker 1: work spouses when we come right back from a quick break.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about the qualities of a work spouse

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Speaker 1: that differentiates them from just your average work pal, acquaintance,

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Speaker 1: desk occupier who doesn't talk much. Um. Sophie Cleman over

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Speaker 1: at Mike wrote about this in noting that according to

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Speaker 1: survey results from vault dot com, of the respondents from

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Speaker 1: a variety of industries reported having a so called office

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Speaker 1: husband or office wife, and a separate survey of only

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Speaker 1: white collar workers found that number was about double. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting. So white collar workers. I wonder if that

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Speaker 1: is affected by the focus on more like creative work,

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Speaker 1: applied arts jobs maybe think office environments that are a

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Speaker 1: little more loosey goosey. Yeah, I would think that, um,

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Speaker 1: in more traditional workplaces where there is more of a

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Speaker 1: career ladder as opposed to service industry jobs UM or

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Speaker 1: obviously like freelance work, UM, that those might facilitate more

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Speaker 1: of those kinds of collaborative relationships because you need those

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Speaker 1: networks in order to get ahead. Yeah that's true. Um,

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Speaker 1: But yeah, your work spouse is you know, you can

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Speaker 1: be friends a lot of people at work, but your

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Speaker 1: work spouse is your person, the one you click with

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Speaker 1: without any romantic spark. And that's the key, because well,

429
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: as we'll talk about, that is definitely the key. I'm

430
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: gonna ask Pam and Jim that's right. Well, no, I mean,

431
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: you know, uh, dude, roommate is a straight guy. I'm

432
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: a straight girl. But because we had literally been friends

433
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: so long and we had met under circumstances where we

434
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: were both dating other people, like, we never had a

435
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: romantic spark between us. Um. A lot of people find

436
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: that hard to believe, but you know, we really are

437
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,959
Speaker 1: truly BFFs, and so working together it was like the

438
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: perfect work spouse relationship, even though so many psychologists are like,

439
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: don't do it. So on a related note, then this

440
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 1: is interesting. So would you have you guys both gotten

441
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: pressure from people from time to time of like, why

442
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 1: are you all together? Don't you like him? Doesn't he

443
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: like you? Um? Not really because because most of the

444
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: people who know both of us know we would never

445
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: in a million years date because we are not each

446
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: other's type at all. Um, but at at at the

447
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,479
Speaker 1: job where we worked together, Uh, there were a couple

448
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: of women who did not know us very well. They

449
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,959
Speaker 1: just knew that we were roommates and that we literally

450
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: spent like so much time together, and they were like, oh,

451
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: you guys are in love with each other. We see

452
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,959
Speaker 1: the way you react to each other, and it's like

453
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: now I first of all, stop it, stop it. Second

454
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: of all, I mean, how do you act with your

455
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,239
Speaker 1: best friend? You know? Um? So really yeah, not not

456
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: very much there. There's never been any of that pressure

457
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: really because he and I are so similar but so different.

458
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: But that does become you know, a challenge sometimes if

459
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: you have like an opposite sex work spouse relationship where

460
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: because people even still do this day, have such a

461
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: hard time believing that men and women can be friends,

462
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: so that more specifically, like straight and can be legitimately

463
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: friends with women of really any sexual orientation without having

464
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: ulterior motives, which is just insulting on a Brazilian levels. Um,

465
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: and I would imagine that that might be even more

466
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: scrutinized in the workplace. Yeah, I mean, and you know,

467
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: we've seen studies before where and we'll talk about gender

468
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: a little bit more in a second, but you know,

469
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: we've seen studies that show that men in cross sex

470
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: straight friendships men do interpret some signs and symptoms a

471
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: little differently than women do. Um, and that can lead

472
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: to a little bit of of getting butt wrecked basically

473
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,239
Speaker 1: over a situation to put it poetically, to put it

474
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: super poetically. UM, but I think that you you can't say.

475
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: It makes for nice headlines to say definitely one way

476
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: or the other, but you obviously can't say anything definitively

477
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: because people are all different people of people, people of people.

478
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:08,239
Speaker 1: So we've established then that your work spouse is just

479
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: like your person. You know, you you do have chemistry

480
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: like Christina's and Meredith on Grat's Anatomy, although they were

481
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: also BFFs like I r L So, but that was

482
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: the first thing I thought of, was when Christina and

483
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: Meredith are like bonding and they established that they are people. Well,

484
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: this just brought to mind the work spouse relationships on

485
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: The Mindy Project, because Mindy, played by Mindy Kaling, has

486
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: like an actual romantic relationship with one of the doctors.

487
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: But Morgan, one of the nurses, is Mindy's work wife,

488
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: although he is not Mindy's like work husband, you know

489
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: what I mean. Like, she's not that too, she doesn't

490
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: serve him in any reciprocal kind of way, which adds

491
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: to the humor of it, because Morgan wants to do

492
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: anything he can to make Mindy's life easier, when in fact,

493
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: I would argue, and looking forward to hearing from Mindy

494
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: Project fans on this, I would argue that she she

495
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: has another work husband, Peter Prentiss, who's like the charming, funnier,

496
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: like another doctor, so it's not like the subordinate level

497
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: that is on Well. I can't confirm or deny because

498
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: I've never seen it, but I would argue that this

499
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: sounds a lot like Veep with Selena Meyer and Gary. Yes,

500
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: Gary without a doubt, and granted they had that moment

501
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: in the closet where they let each other have it.

502
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: Gary finally stood up for himself. I think that was

503
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: last season or two seasons ago, but yeah, absolutely. Gary

504
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: is devoted to Julia Louis Dreyfuss's Selena Meyer and she

505
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: just walks all over him. But they are both aware

506
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: that like she would not be able to succeed at

507
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: life without Gary whispering in her ear. Gary might be

508
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: my all time favorite work wise, He's just the best

509
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: um because one thing, one thing Gary Scott you know

510
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: that other work spouses have is understanding the big picture,

511
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, like Gary is always anticipating what

512
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: Selina is going to need. And it also helps that

513
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: he has his bag well. Yeah, and and so one

514
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: of the key aspects to someone being a work spouse

515
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: versus a casual acquaintance is understanding that big picture. You

516
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: know a lot obviously about your work spouses professional situation,

517
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: their hopes, their dreams, their failures, their successes, um. But

518
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,479
Speaker 1: you also know a lot about their personal life, and

519
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,959
Speaker 1: so you know when he or she walks in and

520
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: seems upset or happy, you have an idea of what's

521
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: going on, because you do you see the whole picture.

522
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: There's also that because you know so much about that

523
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: person's life and their ups and downs and everything, there's

524
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: so much trust that has to happen there because you

525
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: can't just be shooting your mouth off about the boss

526
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: or another coworker that you don't like, or you know,

527
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: if you have a crush on someone at work, or

528
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: if something's going wrong at home. Can't just be shooting

529
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: your mouth off about all that stuff to just anybody.

530
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: And so you know When you combine all this stuff,

531
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: you get a pretty mega, supportive, amazing friend. And not surprisingly,

532
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: there are plenty of benefits associated to having a work spouse.

533
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: Ron Friedman over at The Cut wrote about some research

534
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: on this in December which found that having a work

535
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: spouse is correlated with getting sick less often, suffering fewer accidents,

536
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: changing jobs less often, and having more satisfied customers. Yeah,

537
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: and and again. You because you're committed to this person,

538
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: and your relationship with this person makes you happier, you

539
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: don't want to let the down, so there's more on

540
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: the line. Your laziness or your incompetence or your failure

541
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you've only let yourself down or your boss down,

542
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: but it also means you're letting your work spouse down.

543
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: And you don't want to do that because you're so

544
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: committed and Freeman also cited research that should just how

545
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: important to work spouses during those really stressful times at work.

546
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 1: People who believe that their coworkers will help them during

547
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: times of stress and challenge are more likely to overcome

548
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: that stress and challenge to succeed no matter what's going

549
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: on at work. They're more able to quickly integrate and

550
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: adapt to things going on at work, and they report

551
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: better stress management. So just knowing that you have that

552
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: person who gets you your person at work, it reduces

553
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: your stress a little bit because you can just exchange

554
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 1: that look and be like, I know, girl, I hear

555
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: you loud and clear. And there have been so many

556
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: meetings you and I have been in together, large group

557
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: meetings where we might be sitting across the table from

558
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 1: each other and but just talking, talking loud and clear,

559
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 1: without saying a word, talking with those eyeball um, and

560
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: you all know Caroline has very expressive eyebrows. So um.

561
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: But this this next one though, is so crucial. I

562
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: feel like if you are managing both, you know, a

563
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: work spouse relationship and a romantic relationship on the side,

564
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: because one of the big benefits in terms of how

565
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: your work spouse can make your personal life better is

566
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 1: compartmentalizing your the minutia of your job angst and all

567
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: of the projects that you have to do and all

568
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: of that stress. If you can just compartmentalize it to

569
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: your work spouse, you don't take it all home. Yeah,

570
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: And I mean I I've always taken a lot home anyway. Yeah,

571
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: I mean, like, you know, your your significant other is

572
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: your significant other, so you're going to talk to that person,

573
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: but it doesn't It kind of saves your your ESSO

574
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: from having to sit across the table from you at

575
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: dinner as you're like, no, okay, well see Betty Sue

576
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,919
Speaker 1: is a jerk because she does this thing, and then

577
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: you know Jim over here he does this thing, and

578
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: so but then they can't you know like that, don't

579
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: don't stress other people out with like the super intimate

580
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: details of how everyone is connected at work, like maybe

581
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 1: hit the high points well. And to that point, I

582
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 1: am real grateful that my husband did a very kind

583
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: hearted job. He was very gentle with me with this

584
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: of just alerting me that I talk I talk about

585
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: work a lot. I'll go through phases where yeah, it

586
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,479
Speaker 1: work is life. I mean I shoot videos in my home.

587
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,439
Speaker 1: It is literally there all the time. UM. And he's

588
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: been so helpful and patient and kind with helping me

589
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: kind of separate those two worlds as much as I can,

590
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: because I do want to be cognizant of what's going

591
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: on with his work life. Does he have space to

592
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: talk to me about stuff that's annoying him and he

593
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: even surprised me once when he surprised me so many times.

594
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: But one time I was talking uh about something at

595
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,439
Speaker 1: work making me upset um and I was like, well,

596
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: I mean, what's going on? What are you mad about?

597
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 1: You know, don't you have any isn't something terrible? You know,

598
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 1: your job? And he was like yeah, but I just don't.

599
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: I just don't like to talk about that. He's like,

600
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: I just don't. He was like, I don't want to

601
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 1: even think about that when I'm home. You know. Boyfriend

602
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: Dog is the same, Like how do you do that?

603
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: You just leave it at the office. Well, see, the

604
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: complicating factor with boyfriend Dog is that he works at home. Um,

605
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: so I'm I kind of witness firsthand when something is

606
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: going south. But he tends to do the same thing

607
00:37:58,160 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: of like I just don't want to talk about it

608
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 1: because it just gets my blood pressure up. You know.

609
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: That's not to say he never like blows up, you know,

610
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: with work stress or whatever, but he tends to just

611
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: be like, you know, I'll just now I'm focused on

612
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: you know, making dinner, where now I'm focused on watching TV,

613
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,959
Speaker 1: or now I'm focused on hanging out rather than work.

614
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: I can't even and he sees it all over my

615
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: face because I can't. I literally like getting ready to

616
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 1: come into work today. I was blowing through the house

617
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: like really fast and like trying to get ready because

618
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 1: I was doing a million different things, and he just

619
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: saw my face and he's like, this isn't You're just

620
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: in work land already, aren't you. Yeah, I'm sorry, I can't.

621
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: I'll be. I mean, I could, I need to, but

622
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I should have just come and put

623
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: it all on you, Kristen. That's what I'm here for, Caroline,

624
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 1: That's what a podcast is for. I'm not heavy. I'm

625
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: your sister, but so so you have that that personal

626
00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:00,479
Speaker 1: life benefit for sure. Um, although yeah you should also

627
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: you should be able to talk to your significant other

628
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,720
Speaker 1: if something is going wrong at work. I shouldn't only

629
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: have to speak of positive things. Um. But then you

630
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 1: also have the benefits of future plans and future success because,

631
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 1: as Adam Grant noted, of startups emerged through founders friendships

632
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: and where do we meet people we know we like?

633
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 1: And no will work hard at the bar, Caroline just

634
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: kidding school and work at t J Max teaching Max. Um,

635
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: Hey girl, you look like you can find a deal.

636
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: Are you a max any staff? Let's start to start up.

637
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: But you know, we've painted a pretty rosy picture of

638
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: how important a work spouse is, but there are a

639
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: couple downsides if you're not being vigilant about your work

640
00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: relationships in general. And one thing we pointed out earlier

641
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: in that if you are work spouses with someone who

642
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: is known for something, maybe for being super negative or

643
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,879
Speaker 1: super hilarious or super amazing, like, all of these things

644
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 1: are going to reflect on you, whether it's positive or negative.

645
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: So watch out if your work spouse is known for

646
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: being like the office negative Nancy. Yeah, and I have

647
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: no research to back this up and don't know whether

648
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: there is any or not, but well, and I wonder, Caroline,

649
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: if that risk is greater for um, same sex work spouses,

650
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: because something that I have noticed and somewhat experienced in

651
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: workplaces is that especially if you have a male boss,

652
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 1: but female bosses do this too, and your work wife

653
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: is a fellow lady, you're like mutual workwives. You gotta

654
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 1: work workplace boss and marriage going on that it's almost

655
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: as if the boss sees you as just one person. Yeah,

656
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, and it doesn't help sometimes that I don't know,

657
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: maybe you both have dark hair. You're kind of on

658
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 1: the pail and the spectrum. I'm talking a little bit

659
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: about us, yes, um, because it's uh, and it hasn't

660
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: been a negative for us, because I mean we're you know,

661
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: charming work wives. Hopefully we get spicy sometimes as does everyone. Um,

662
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: but there are there have been those moments where it's

663
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: like it's to become one, like we know we're we

664
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: are still individual, individual people. Yeah, um remember that. Yeah,

665
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: I and I don't know either. I did not come

666
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:59,280
Speaker 1: across anything that indicates whether that's true across the board,

667
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: but I can definitely see I can definitely see what

668
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: you're talking about, you know, through personal research. Um. There's

669
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: also the idea of of missing out. You know, when

670
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 1: your work besties with someone, there's almost that feeling of like,

671
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: well why do I have to talk to anyone else?

672
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: You know. It was definitely like that at my old

673
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: job with my work spouses. Does that make me a

674
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: work big missed? Because they were both men anyway, you know,

675
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: it's like, well I don't I don't have to mess

676
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: with like the people who really bug you. There was

677
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: lesson SENTI for me to try to cross that bridge,

678
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: build a bridge, cross a bridge, send up a flare,

679
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: break out of my silo, because I had work spouses

680
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: and they were super funny and supportive and my kind

681
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: of people. Yeah. Well, and I would bet that one's

682
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: desire to branch out beyond their spouse silo directly correlates

683
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 1: to how long they see themselves in that job, true,

684
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: you know, and how much they respect and value the

685
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: um the company itself. Yeah. So if I decide I

686
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: need to launch a career and like infomercials, like I'm

687
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 1: gonna need to go like probably meet an infomercial like

688
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: wife work wife or something, and that makes me sad,

689
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: and make sure it's the makeup person A little chip

690
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: I learned from a little show. We also hinted earlier

691
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: at the complications that can come when your co workers

692
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: are jealous of your relationship, or just the complications that

693
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: can come out of your work spouse being on a

694
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: different level higher or lower, Because is it really an

695
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: egalitarian work spousitude ship thing if someone's a manager and

696
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: someone's a subordinate. Yeah, and speaking of co workers, will

697
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: they look at that and say, well, of course, Virginia

698
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: just got a raise because she's friends with Lindy. Lindy's

699
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 1: the boss by the way. Um, and you know the

700
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: the massive spouse woe it has to do with your

701
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,959
Speaker 1: real spouse. Yeah. I feel like this is the work

702
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: spouse elephant in the room, which is the concern that

703
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: your work spouse overshadows your spouse spouse. Yeah. So there's

704
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: this guy, Willard F. Harley Jr. Who I swear to

705
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: God is quoted in like every work spouse article on

706
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: the internet. But he's a psychologist and marriage counselor, and

707
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 1: he is majorly concerned with the way that you are

708
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: interacting with your sexual orientation matching work spouse. So he

709
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't be as worried about like Matt and me like

710
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: that school or you and me, but he'd be being Matt,

711
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: Matt being a gay dude, you being a straight lady. Uh.

712
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: He gets really worried though, especially when it comes to

713
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 1: like straight dudes and straight women hanging out, because he

714
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: has seen firsthand as a marriage counselor. The he says thousands.

715
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: I don't know, but he he said he's seen thousands

716
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: of people who've come to him after they've had those

717
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: close work relationships evolve into an affair because, as he

718
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: points out, like your work spouse. You call that person

719
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: a work spouse for a reason. It's a relationship that

720
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 1: meets a lot of needs. Like we've said, it's built

721
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: on trust. You probably share a lot of interests. They

722
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: get you there, your person you click, You share a

723
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: sense of humor, and you probably complain about the same things.

724
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: Like if you throw like work travel into the mix

725
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: or like work cocktail parties, watch out. Harley's guidelines are

726
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: all about like, do not spill your marriage problems to

727
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 1: your work, your opposite or your sexual orientation matching work spouse.

728
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: Don't be spilling marriage woes because that makes it sound

729
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 1: like the doors open. Don't get drunk together, don't travel

730
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: alone together, maintain those boundaries, talk about your spouse in

731
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,359
Speaker 1: a positive way. Make sure that your spouse, your real

732
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: life spouse, is included in things so that he or

733
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: she does not feel excluded, because you don't want to

734
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 1: make it seem like you have some sort of secret,

735
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: clandestine relationship going on. Well, and in terms of not

736
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: spelling your marriage problems to someone you might potentially want

737
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,479
Speaker 1: to have sex with, because that's basically what the whole

738
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: like UH sexual orientation matching is. UM. I think it's

739
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: is good advice all around, whether you're in a work

740
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: situation or not, because it's like, just be careful if

741
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 1: you are complaining about like if you hear yourself complaining

742
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: about the person that you are with to someone who could,

743
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: by contrast, start to look a little shinier in your eyes,

744
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: if that makes sense. Yeah, is anybody out there watching

745
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: uh Man Seeking Woman. It's on f x X. It's

746
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 1: on like one of the sub f X channels, and

747
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: there's literally a whole episode about that where there's this

748
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,919
Speaker 1: like beautiful charming girl at work and she is close

749
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,959
Speaker 1: friends with the lead guy and he's just waiting, he's

750
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: just waiting to slip in there, and she starts complaining

751
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,760
Speaker 1: about her boyfriend, who turns out to literally be Jesus

752
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 1: Uh played by Fred Armison, which is ironic, um, And

753
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: she complains about him and he's like, I've got a

754
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: shot and he goes for it and falls on his face.

755
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: It's the same thing, like just don't don't leave the

756
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: goal unattended. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that's that also

757
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 1: requires you as the complainer I think maybe checking yourself, yeah,

758
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: checking your motivations, what's going on, Maybe considering whether there

759
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: is someone who would be healthier to talk to. Yeah,

760
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 1: or even just like a friend who might not have

761
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: any vested interests at all. Um, I like that this

762
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: episode just became us giving like marriage advice. You're welcome,

763
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: so expect your bill in the mail anytime, thanks to

764
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: stamps dot Com. But alright, so we have to get

765
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: an agenda, right, I mean, we're sminty and we've kind

766
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: of danced around the whole gender topic. Uh, this is

767
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: coming from a couple different sources psychology today, the comparably

768
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: organization European Business Review. But work friendships tend to have

769
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: a couple different types of rewards. You've got the socio

770
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: emotional rewards, which is basically you're sharing pleasure in experiences,

771
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: and then instrumental rewards, which have to do with exchanging favors.

772
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: And again we're going to talk in like pretty stereotypical

773
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 1: broadbrush terms, but for the most part, women are more

774
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 1: likely to enjoy the socio emotional rewards of forming work friendships,

775
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: while men are more likely to participate in those instrumental

776
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: reward friendships. And uh to break this down, a little

777
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: bit of study done by comparably asked users in text

778
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: specifically whether they had a mentor and whether they had

779
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: a best friend at work, and women were way more

780
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: likely at all levels of the job to say, yes,

781
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,799
Speaker 1: I have a mentor, I've formed a lationship with someone

782
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: in that regard, and yes I have a best friend

783
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: at work. And that has a lot to do with

784
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: the way that researchers say women form friendships with one another.

785
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: So Lisa Brateman, who's a psychotherapist, told Refinery twenty nine

786
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: that women are more likely to share personal details at work,

787
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: which equates to a whole load of lady intimacy basically,

788
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 1: and that is basically the foundation of friendship, right You're

789
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,919
Speaker 1: sharing stuff about yourself, and that is definitely a quick

790
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: way to form a work friendship, especially a work best friendship.

791
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: And because women are more likely to do this than

792
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: men are, apparently that makes that steady result makes sense

793
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:47,280
Speaker 1: that women are therefore more likely to have a bestie

794
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: at work or a mentor that they formed a close

795
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 1: relationship with. Well, and we're also likelier to seek that

796
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: kind of emotional support when we are stressed at work

797
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 1: and to both receive and provide more emotional social support

798
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: than men in times of work related unhappiness or distressed.

799
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 1: And along those same lines, women tend to invest more

800
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 1: in maintaining those friendships, calling friends regularly, meeting more frequently,

801
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 1: always b g. Chatting the gifts back and forth. Yeah,

802
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: and it's the thing that you said about supporting each

803
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: other being more likely to support each other in stressful

804
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 1: times at work. That ties back to the stuff we

805
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier about how those work spouse ships are based

806
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: on a huge amount of trust you know, and how

807
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: your work satisfaction and therefore your work productivity is based

808
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: on knowing that you have someone behind you who's going

809
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 1: to support you. You know that you have someone to

810
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: talk to, someone who's gonna believe what you're saying and

811
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: support what you're doing. But when it comes to men

812
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 1: at work, again disclaimer, this is all very general, But

813
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 1: when it comes to men at work generally, their friendship

814
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: can be described as those instrumental or transactional friendships. They

815
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: tend to be organized around those shared interests and activities

816
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: or the exchange of tangible rewards and favors, and be

817
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: action oriented rather than person oriented. Hence everybody's going out

818
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: to play golf or whatever, or you go to the

819
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 1: box of the football game, yeah yeah, or whatever the

820
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: equivalent is. You guys are all playing duck Hunt together.

821
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: That's just gonna keep it's the duck Hunt is the

822
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: mascot of this episode. I'm fine with that. Or sushi,

823
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 1: just a slab of sushi. And one recent study that

824
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 1: I'm like, uh okay. One recent study said that it's

825
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: possible that mail co workers go out drinking together more

826
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 1: because it lowers all of their like pent up masculine emotions.

827
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:50,959
Speaker 1: And I have to raise an eyebrow at that, because

828
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 1: that sounds very like I don't know. I went out

829
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 1: drinking with co workers quite a bit, and it was

830
00:51:56,520 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 1: always mixed gender groups, just to jobs blowoff team. I'm

831
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: curious what exact inhibitions they're referring to. I think they're

832
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: referring to those like scio emotional oh of getting beyond

833
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: the like getting beyond like the let's go out for

834
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: stats to being like you know what, I'm actually pretty

835
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 1: vulnerable and I enjoy art and enjoy art, and also

836
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: I'm scared about where my career is going. And I

837
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: was really interested too in this this socio economic note

838
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 1: about male work friendships. Uh. This one study cited was

839
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 1: saying that working class or blue collar guys at work

840
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 1: tend to express that transactional nature of friendship with material

841
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: goods and services, like hey, I'll exchange wrenches with you.

842
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 1: They're exchanging wrenches. That's actually symbol of marriage in some societies. Uh,

843
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 1: while middle class or white collar dudes were more like

844
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 1: to share those leisure activities like going golfing or going

845
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 1: to a baseball game. But I want to go back

846
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: to one thing before we, UM start to wrap up

847
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:16,439
Speaker 1: in terms of the finding that work women's work friendships

848
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 1: tend to center around the socio emotional rewards, just having

849
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: the pleasure and the shared experiences, whereas men's work relationships,

850
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: um are more favor based. You kind of go out

851
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: to get ahead. And I think that I've brought this

852
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 1: exact same scenario up on a previous podcast, UM, but

853
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 1: clearly it's just stuck in my mind, UM because it

854
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: reminds me of a tweet that we received a while

855
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: back from a young woman who wants to get ahead

856
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 1: and socialize, but she can't go out for drinks because

857
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 1: it's all guys at her office and they never directly

858
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: invite her, and she feels it feels like she can't

859
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: go because she would, you know, like kill the all

860
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:15,359
Speaker 1: guy vibe. Um. So I wonder if it is so

861
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: much of his and hers like oh we just have this,

862
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 1: you know, our sociomotion rewards, or is that the ceiling

863
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 1: is that like all we can really access. Yeah, I

864
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: mean I've definitely heard of women like taking golf lessons

865
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: so that they can participate in like the upper management

866
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: boys club, that is the golf outings where business is

867
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: discussed on on the green. But that's a really good point. Yeah,

868
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 1: I mean it could be like, yeah, it could be

869
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: that women genuinely are appreciating these types of relationships and

870
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: men are appreciating those types of relationships. But if you

871
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 1: can't even get an invite to one or the other, right,

872
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 1: because that kind of after hours networking is where a

873
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: lot of promotions come from. And if you can't even

874
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: get in the bar, or if you do get in

875
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 1: the bar, it's really awkward because you have to play

876
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 1: the whole like, oh my god, you guys are here,

877
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: Oh so weird. I'm here too, I alone not because

878
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:23,760
Speaker 1: I'm sad. Um, I've just wanted, Oh can I join you?

879
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 1: You know, and your palms are sweating, so the glass

880
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: slips out of your hand and it's just a disaster

881
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: shatter and you cut your leg and you've got to

882
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 1: go to the hospital and then you miss work and

883
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 1: then they fire you. See see what networking brings you Exactly,

884
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 1: That's what networking felt like when I was unemployed. It's true.

885
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: But all that to say that I hope that workplaces

886
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: become more just cognizant of those unnecessary hang ups that

887
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 1: we have and really prejudices toward men and women or

888
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: people who match sexual orientations, is or Harvey put it,

889
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: um of those people forming relationships like going to one

890
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 1: on one lunch together, going out for drinks one on

891
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 1: one if they need to, because I think, yeah, like

892
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: in group settings, totally fine, not a big deal. But

893
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 1: as soon as you have after hours time with your

894
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 1: work husband and suddenly eyebrowser rays. Yeah. But hopefully if

895
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 1: you have formed if if you are a straight lady

896
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: and a straight guy, um, I mean hopefully you've you

897
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: followed the guidelines for work spouse ship and you guys

898
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: do have a very open honest relationship and your significant

899
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 1: others and your co workers are aware that like, no,

900
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: nothing's going on, and that it doesn't become a situation

901
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: where everything is blown out of proportion because people are

902
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,879
Speaker 1: just gossiping about you, like look at look at them

903
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 1: spending all of that time together. And if you are

904
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: consistently hanging out outside of work hours with with that

905
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 1: work spouse, when you also have a spouse, it might

906
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 1: be a good idea to just make sure that spouses

907
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 1: so together, just just ease everyone's minds. Um, but how

908
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,399
Speaker 1: do you even get to that point? You know? How

909
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: how do you do you get down on one like

910
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: to get to get a work spouse. Do I need

911
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 1: to go get a ring, get down on one knee,

912
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 1: save up two months salary and get a little twist

913
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 1: tie you put it on the pointer finger. Um, that's

914
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: that's the work spouse finger finger Yeah. Um. Well, researchers

915
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 1: basically across the board are like, you know, there are

916
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: certain ways that friendships, no matter what the setting, are formed.

917
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: Here's a quick guide. I love it, like become work

918
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: spouses in forty five minutes and less. And that's basically

919
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable because if you want to form a

920
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: close bestie ship or friendship at work, You're not going

921
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: to get there by just talking about the weather. So

922
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 1: if you like somebody at work and you think you

923
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: guys could be good friends, allies could trust each other

924
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: and help each other. Um, it's swapping those personal stories.

925
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: It's work. Spouse ships are formed on the basis of

926
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 1: knowing so much about each other and still supporting each other.

927
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 1: It's kind of like. It all ties in back to

928
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 1: uh Ann Friedman's Shine theory about supporting your powerful besties

929
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: and not being intimidated by them. And Robert Epstein, who's

930
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: at the American Institute for Behavioral Research and Technology, says, quote,

931
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: vulnerability is the key to emotional bonding, without which relationships

932
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 1: tend to feel superficial and meaningless. That doesn't mean you

933
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: need to be talking about all your issues like at work,

934
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: in front of everyone. But when you do have those

935
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: closer one on one relationships, don't be afraid to be vulnerable. Yeah, yeah,

936
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: be vulnerable without over sharing, right, you know, maybe hold

937
00:58:56,160 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 1: off on talking about your romantic relationships and also be

938
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 1: mindful of personal space. Maybe you're hopeful work spouse to

939
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 1: be you know, doesn't need to know about your menstrual

940
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 1: cycle yet yet. Yeah, we'll ease that in and then

941
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 1: of course avoid gossip at first when you start when

942
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 1: you're embarking on a new work marriage, because as we

943
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: discussed about my earlier about my super awful coworker at

944
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 1: my first job, that negativity just breeds more negativity. And

945
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 1: if people get the impression that they can't trust you too,

946
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 1: because all you're gonna do is talk smack about and

947
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 1: behind their backs. Like, what's the point of having a

948
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 1: work spouse if everybody else hates you? Yeah, yeah, you

949
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 1: need to just find another job, I think at that point. Yeah,

950
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 1: if all you can do is literally say horrible things

951
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 1: about eachach other or other people at work, that probably

952
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 1: just means you're unhappy in your job, going to do

953
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 1: something else. Yeah, Well, and that does get us to

954
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: one thing that we haven't directly addressed, which is the

955
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:06,600
Speaker 1: work spouse divorce, you know, because yeah, you can just

956
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 1: like friendships can get toxic and you gotta let them go,

957
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: similar thing can happen, especially in the workplace, because I mean,

958
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 1: you have you've got a lot more on the line.

959
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:24,479
Speaker 1: So I'm curious to hear from listeners who have work

960
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 1: spouses and if anyone is going to share with us

961
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 1: going through kind of the work spouse divorce, you know,

962
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 1: did you finally have to call it or was it

963
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 1: like a work spouse slow fade? And when if you

964
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 1: get a new job and the friendship didn't continue. All

965
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 1: these relationships are so like they seem so sterile, you know,

966
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:48,479
Speaker 1: from the outside, but um, when you really start paying

967
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 1: attention to them, they're full of matching feminist mugs. They

968
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:56,479
Speaker 1: are they are, and lots of games of duck hunt

969
01:00:56,520 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 1: and platters of sushi when they're at their best, you know. Um,

970
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 1: So please share all your work wife, work husband, work

971
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 1: spouse do you and also do you have a preferred

972
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: uh title for that? Do you do not call your

973
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 1: person your your work spouse? Um, let let us know

974
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 1: all the dates. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot

975
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 1: com is our email address. You can also tweet us

976
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. And we've

977
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you right now. Well,

978
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 1: I've got a message here from a drill from our

979
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 1: episode where we talked to Anne Marie Slaughter about caregiving.

980
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 1: She says this is an extremely important topic and I'm

981
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 1: so glad that it's finally being brought to the forefront.

982
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 1: Up until recently, I never fully appreciated how important having quality,

983
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 1: free childcare has been to my own success. I got

984
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 1: pregnant my sophomore year of college. For the first year

985
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 1: of my son's life, it was a struggle trying to

986
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: figure out how to work, go to school, and pay

987
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: for daycare. I remember having to choose between staying home

988
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 1: with a sick one year old and going to work.

989
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: I also remember being fired because of choosing to stay

990
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 1: home with my sick one year old. But my story

991
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 1: does have a happy ending. When my son was too

992
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 1: I took a job working at a daycare. The pace sucked,

993
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 1: but he could go to daycare for free, and that

994
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 1: was a tremendous help. I was able to save my

995
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: money and spend it on important things like rent and food.

996
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 1: Having childcare also allowed me to finish my undergraduate degree,

997
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:36,600
Speaker 1: and it also helped me to go on to complete

998
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 1: my masters as well. I owe a lot of my

999
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 1: success to having free childcare. If it were not for that,

1000
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 1: I do not know where my son and I would be.

1001
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 1: No one should ever have to choose between something basic

1002
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 1: like feeding their family or affording their care. Yet sadly

1003
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 1: this happens every day. Care is a basic human right

1004
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 1: that everyone should have access to, and I agree here

1005
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 1: here thanks for your letter. Well, I have a letter

1006
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: here from Amelia who right. First, I love your work

1007
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 1: and fierce feminism. I've learned quite a few new things

1008
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 1: from your podcast, and listening is always a treat. Well,

1009
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 1: thank you, Amelia. Secondly, the recent episode with Anne Marie

1010
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 1: Slaughter really hit home for me. I'm thirty two and

1011
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 1: stuck between having a baby and going to grad school.

1012
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 1: I have so many questions and self doubts about any

1013
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 1: avenue I pursue. Do I had to grad school knowing

1014
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 1: I'll be thirty six when I have my first baby.

1015
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 1: Do I put off grad school so I can utilize

1016
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:34,640
Speaker 1: my young ish eggs, or do I strap on my

1017
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 1: cape and do both at the same time. All my

1018
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:40,919
Speaker 1: choices are daunting, and most professional women I've asked don't

1019
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 1: have any answers either. I have asked several of my

1020
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 1: professors who have small children what they suggest, and I've

1021
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 1: heard everything from just have a baby now, you're not

1022
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: getting any younger too, there's really no good time to

1023
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 1: have kids. The worst and most memorable piece of advice

1024
01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 1: I got was well, at least your fiance has done

1025
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 1: with a degree, What the heck is it girl supposed

1026
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 1: to say to that? So, while your interview with miss

1027
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 1: Slaughter did not necessarily assuage any of my worries, I

1028
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 1: am relieved to know that there are strong women willing

1029
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 1: to have these conversations and fight for a level of

1030
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 1: equality which is long overdue. While things may not change

1031
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 1: over night, I'm hopeful that our generation may be the

1032
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 1: last to know this inequality. And Marie Slaughter is a badass,

1033
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 1: and so are you? Please keep up the great work. Well,

1034
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 1: you know what, Amelia, You're a badass as well. And

1035
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 1: those are such daunting questions that I have a feeling,

1036
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 1: uh so many listeners can relate to As a woman

1037
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:45,160
Speaker 1: in my thirties, I think I think similar things as well. Um, honestly,

1038
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 1: it's just it's just weird having ovaries sometimes just know

1039
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 1: when they're sitting in there. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Um,

1040
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, I also am am really excited that Amory Slaughter, Hi,

1041
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 1: Gen Poo and other amazing people are working for that

1042
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 1: equality that we all need. So with that, keep sending

1043
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:08,960
Speaker 1: your letters mom. Stuff at how stuff works dot com

1044
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 1: is our email address and for links to all of

1045
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 1: our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos,

1046
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 1: and podcasts with our sources so you can learn more

1047
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 1: about work wives. Head on over to stuff mom Never

1048
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: Told You dot com for more on this and thousands

1049
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com