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Speaker 1: So every every so often when we do an episode,

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Speaker 1: we hit on something that needs to be more widely acknowledged,

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Speaker 1: and then we come back and we find that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: awareness of something has increased, but the problem very much remains.

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Speaker 1: And sadly that's the case with today's classic episode, The

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Speaker 1: Highway of Tears. Yeah, there's a there's a terrible problem

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Speaker 1: with missing and murdered indigenous women throughout the world, in

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Speaker 1: countries across the planet, but specifically today we're going to

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Speaker 1: focus in on Canada and what's going on on the

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Speaker 1: Canadian Highway. This is a tough episode, but I am

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Speaker 1: glad that we were able to be joined by Scott

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Speaker 1: Benjamin of Car Stuff to tackle this topic. Oh yeah, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Scott is an old dear friend of ours and he

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Speaker 1: has an encyclopedia knowledge of two things, cars and crime,

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Speaker 1: and this is like the perfect fusion of both of

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Speaker 1: those things, and I think we'll all benefit from Scott's

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Speaker 1: expertise in these departments. So um, give a listen. Trigger warning.

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Speaker 1: There is discussion of sexual violence and UH and assaults

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Speaker 1: from UFOs, two ghosts, and government cover ups. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Hello,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt and

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Speaker 1: I'm Ben and we are joined as always by our

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Speaker 1: super producer, Noel, the high woman Brown and high fives

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Speaker 1: across the internet if you've got that reference. But today, Matt,

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Speaker 1: we're also joined by a special guest, a good friend

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Speaker 1: of the shows and a good friend of you and I,

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Speaker 1: both outside of outside of this whole stuff they want

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Speaker 1: you to know things, ladies and gentlemen, I present you,

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Speaker 1: Mr Scott Benjamin. Oh, thank you very much. Guys. I

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Speaker 1: appreciate the offer to be here on your show today.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we uh, we appreciate it even more. But

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Speaker 1: let's not get in the contest about appreciation here, Scott,

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Speaker 1: because I am thrilled to have you on our show.

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Speaker 1: No long time listeners, you may know that Scott and

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Speaker 1: I worked together on a different show called Car Stuff,

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Speaker 1: And if you watch our stuff they don't want you

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Speaker 1: to Know videos, then there's a chance that you caught

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Speaker 1: Scott on his first appearance with Stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know, which was a video podcast. You have

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Speaker 1: a very general episode about car conspiracies. All the conspiracies

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Speaker 1: feel like that was a long time ago. It doesn't,

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Speaker 1: I think it was. Uh, do you remember what we

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Speaker 1: were looking at, like pavement conspiracies is the water car,

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Speaker 1: I believe, the water powered car, which you can check

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Speaker 1: out for more check out our audio and our video

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Speaker 1: for more information on that. But today, Scott, we asked

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Speaker 1: you over to do the audio component of a video

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Speaker 1: that we also recently made. A lot of folks might

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Speaker 1: not know this, but uh, we're pretty big true crime fans,

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Speaker 1: like all all four of us actually so Nol, Matt, Scott,

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Speaker 1: and myself and we uh, we were looking into a

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Speaker 1: listener suggestion that we've received from several people, including Jimmy

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Speaker 1: C on Twitter, which was the Highway of Tears and Scott.

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Speaker 1: When we started looking into this, we knew we had

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Speaker 1: to get you on board if at all possible. Oh well,

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Speaker 1: I felt like it was. It was a right fit too,

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Speaker 1: because I have an interest in the case. Um, I

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Speaker 1: have not read anything prior to when you mentioned it

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Speaker 1: to me, but I've been digging into this deeply for

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Speaker 1: the you know, for the last few weeks. The interstate

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Speaker 1: system and police you know, functions and just I'm fascinated

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Speaker 1: by the whole case, I really am, and I can't

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Speaker 1: wait to even get even more information about this even

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Speaker 1: after this podcast. Always we have we have listeners who

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Speaker 1: will no doubt be writing into us and giving us

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Speaker 1: even more little tidbits that we will not cover in

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Speaker 1: this episode. Canadian listeners, well, let's let's start at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: As the mad Hatter said to al Us, I think

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Speaker 1: it was the mad Hatter. Uh. What is the Highway

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Speaker 1: of Tears. Well, the Highway Tears is a about a

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Speaker 1: four hundred and fifty mile section of Highway sixteen that

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Speaker 1: runs between Prince George and Prince Rupert. And it's in

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Speaker 1: British Columbia Canada. Of course, that's like the northern part,

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Speaker 1: I guess a British Columbia right yellowhead Highway sixteen. For

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Speaker 1: everybody else outside of what Myanmar, Namibia and the US,

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Speaker 1: that's seven kilometers thanks and the stretch of highway it

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Speaker 1: passes through a lot of what are called First Nation

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Speaker 1: communities along this highway, So these are Aboriginal people's who

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Speaker 1: live on the land. There yeah, about a dozen small communities.

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Speaker 1: And here's the thing that you may get a picture

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Speaker 1: of this in your head if you haven't heard of

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Speaker 1: the Highway of Tears before and that picture. If you

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Speaker 1: if you close your eyes and you you imagine this, uh,

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Speaker 1: if you're seeing a place that is very rural, you

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Speaker 1: are correct. There's not much in the way of public transit,

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Speaker 1: right there are any bus systems, there's not a train.

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Speaker 1: And also historically there has been a struggle with property

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Speaker 1: in these communities, so a lot of people don't own cars.

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Speaker 1: Very small towns, very sparse, very scattered, so long distances

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Speaker 1: in between that are very desolate, especially at night. You

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Speaker 1: know these are dark, Uh well, I guess densely, densely

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Speaker 1: wooded areas that are easy to to lose yourself on.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're able to uh to go just off

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Speaker 1: the highway. And there's um, I think they said it's

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Speaker 1: like four or five to one the miles of roads,

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Speaker 1: so mile paved road, there's like five unpaved miles of

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Speaker 1: road right next to it. Um there's there's logging communities everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Um it's just logging camps, I should say. But um,

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Speaker 1: let's of course logging roads go along with that, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of those are just again desolate, rugged roads

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Speaker 1: that are way way off the main stretch. So why

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Speaker 1: are we here today to talk about this rural road

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Speaker 1: in British Columbia. I mean, what's deal their rural roads everywhere? Well, um,

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Speaker 1: as you may have guessed already, there's been a series

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Speaker 1: of disappearances and murders that have happened along this highway. Now,

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Speaker 1: the number when when I tell you this number, it's

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Speaker 1: not going to be the big number because there's a

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Speaker 1: much bigger number. But police say that there have been

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Speaker 1: eighteen victims since nineteen sixty nine on the Highway of Tiers. Now,

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Speaker 1: you might think that's not a whole lot really when

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Speaker 1: you consider that that is about four decades a time.

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Speaker 1: But as we'll learn later, that's really about how they're measuring,

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Speaker 1: right from from how close to the highway did these

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Speaker 1: people disappear exactly? Yeah, there's some there's some strict parameters

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Speaker 1: that they put in place. And we'll tell you about

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Speaker 1: the team that decided who is officially a victim of

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Speaker 1: the Highway Tiers and then all these other cases that

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Speaker 1: are not officially Highway of Tiers victims. And that's that's

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Speaker 1: kind of the interesting than the meat of this whole

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Speaker 1: story is that it's much much bigger than anybody really thinks, right,

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Speaker 1: and there are also allegations of cover ups. Uh there

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Speaker 1: is stuff they don't want you in this case. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's endemic or maybe I should say systemic racism that's involved.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with the first victim, lady named Gloria Moody,

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Speaker 1: at the young age of in nineteen October, she leaves

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Speaker 1: a bar near Williams Lake and her body when it's discovered,

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Speaker 1: is at a uh in the woods near a cattle

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Speaker 1: ranch right about UM ten kilometers away. We should note

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Speaker 1: at this time that this is in retrospect, considered the

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Speaker 1: first official highway of tears murder. However, at the time

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Speaker 1: it was not given um. I think it's fair to

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Speaker 1: say it was not given adequate investigation or tension of

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Speaker 1: law enforcement because of the systemic racism we've mentioned at

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Speaker 1: the time, which just to get a picture of this, Matt,

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Speaker 1: that's something that really intrigued you. Right, Yes, systemic racism

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Speaker 1: against the Aboriginal people. Uh, you know, in some ways

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Speaker 1: by the Canadian government because there are these things, these

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Speaker 1: boarding schools called residential schools that children anywhere from the

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Speaker 1: ages seven to fifteen, I believe it was would be

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Speaker 1: sometimes taken away from their family, uh, by force sent

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Speaker 1: to these residential schools where they would be I think

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Speaker 1: the quote at least from this documentary that we watched

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Speaker 1: called the Highway of Tears, where they would kill the

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Speaker 1: Indian inside of them, so they would deprive them from

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Speaker 1: the culture of their family, from the culture of their people,

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Speaker 1: and you know, they wouldn't allow them, allow them to

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Speaker 1: dress certain ways, and they kind of just devalued that

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Speaker 1: part right to try and assimilate them into the community.

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Speaker 1: And this is a school that operated for something like

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Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty years. So you've got generations of

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Speaker 1: students going through this school. And I say students loosely.

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Speaker 1: It's it's kids going through this that are being isolated

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Speaker 1: in their family, being isolated from their culture, not really

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Speaker 1: knowing who they are as they grow up. Right, And

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Speaker 1: how how does this tie into the Highway of Tears. Well,

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Speaker 1: because the the vast majority of victims up until I

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Speaker 1: think two thousand two is the date that was sited.

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Speaker 1: I know we're jumping a little head there, but most

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Speaker 1: of them were Aboriginal women who were going missing. Sure, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the reason is that you find that a lot

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Speaker 1: of these women are unable to afford vehicles. And it

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Speaker 1: comes back to public transportation and need, the need to

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Speaker 1: get between those remote villages or those remote towns that

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Speaker 1: we talked about on this highway because that's the connecting

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Speaker 1: point and it's too far to walk in a reasonable distance.

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Speaker 1: You don't have a car. So you have one solution,

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Speaker 1: right guys, Well, well two solutions. There's one that's not

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Speaker 1: so great. Greyhound Bus operates a line on the Highway sixteen,

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Speaker 1: but it's infrequent and it doesn't run as often as

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Speaker 1: they would like, and you have to be near a hub, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they would like shuttles or something like that, but that's

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Speaker 1: not the case. So so then the other option is

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Speaker 1: what you're talking about, which is what hitchhiking. And uh,

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Speaker 1: we actually did on car stuff a um we call

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Speaker 1: them mystery shows. We we did one recently on hitchhiking

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Speaker 1: that led to some unexpectedly uh moral or profound discussions

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Speaker 1: of morality. It's a bit of an uncomfortable podcast to do,

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Speaker 1: really really yeah, it sort of was because of you

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Speaker 1: know the moral issues. I mean, you want to say

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Speaker 1: about help anybody that's in need, and you know, no problem,

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Speaker 1: but you've got that little bit of fear that that

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Speaker 1: still lives within you. That you know, I you've been

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Speaker 1: told all your life, don't pick up hitchhikers, don't pick

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Speaker 1: up that guy on the side of the road on

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Speaker 1: the rainy night, you know, as you're driving past it.

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Speaker 1: But but then again, you just saw a car that

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Speaker 1: was broken down half a mile behind, and you know

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Speaker 1: that guys probably coming from there still a gamble, I mean,

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Speaker 1: unless you've got some kind of segregated car, like a

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Speaker 1: police cruiser or something where they can't access your But

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Speaker 1: but you know, we're on the other side of this though.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about you know, the ones in danger are

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Speaker 1: the ones that are the walkers, the ones that are

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Speaker 1: trying to get from town to town, ran to see friends,

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Speaker 1: trying to get to college campuses. UM. A lot of

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Speaker 1: times these victims will be portrayed as as high risk.

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Speaker 1: Victims will say that, you know, of course, the the

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Speaker 1: hitchhiking is high risk, but they will also say that

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Speaker 1: I kind of lump in with that that you know,

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Speaker 1: some of these are maybe runaway teens, some of them

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Speaker 1: are uh, they might use the word prostitutes. Um, you

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Speaker 1: know that's not the case with every one of these clearly, Um,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not to say I'm saying that might not

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Speaker 1: be the case with some of them. Um. There's also,

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Speaker 1: you know, the possibility that it's just people that have

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Speaker 1: been somehow socially marginalized, people that are homeless. And I

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Speaker 1: know in those communities it's probably very rare to actually

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Speaker 1: have a homeless person, but it's it's a possibility as well,

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Speaker 1: and that happens here in the United States too. We're

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Speaker 1: going to tie all this together later, Yeah, yeah, we are,

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Speaker 1: we are, because Okay, so first murder nineteen sixty nine,

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Speaker 1: uh murders are continuing or excuse me, disappearances, I guess

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Speaker 1: if we want to split some hairs about it. And

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Speaker 1: these are not getting any national attention. They're not like

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Speaker 1: getting any real regional attention. So how many decades, nine

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Speaker 1: seventy nine, eight nine. It is not until two thousand

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Speaker 1: and two when a young lady named Nicole whore h

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Speaker 1: O a r. Goes missing. This is in two thousand two.

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Speaker 1: She is white, she is not a First Nations UH member.

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Speaker 1: So this was the first highway of tears cases to

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Speaker 1: be covered in the papers of the time, like Edmonton Journal,

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Speaker 1: Vancouver's Son Globe and Mail, and uh, then the police

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Speaker 1: really started investigating these as not just quote unquote isolated incidents. Okay,

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Speaker 1: and she's not the very first white victim, however, there

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Speaker 1: are others that were Caucasian that that that had fallen

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Speaker 1: victim to this. But this one did get a tremendous

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Speaker 1: amount of media coverage and there was some raised eyebrows

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Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, wait, you're you're right, because thank you

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Speaker 1: for clarifying too. She was the first person to get

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Speaker 1: national attention for the story. She was not the first

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Speaker 1: non First nations. And and also, okay, little caveat here

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Speaker 1: that we have to add is that, um, I think

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Speaker 1: they said the majority of the women on the list

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Speaker 1: are Aboriginal, so uh, you know, greater than I haven't

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Speaker 1: really gone through the numbers here and figured out what

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Speaker 1: thercentage of these crimes are these cases rather, but um,

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Speaker 1: you know, the majority are Aboriginal women. Yeah, and additionally,

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Speaker 1: we always have to think about it in these terms. Uh,

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Speaker 1: these are just the people we know about. There could

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Speaker 1: easily be more people that have disappeared. Uh, not just

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Speaker 1: on Highway sixteen, but on Highways nineteen seven and five. Um.

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Speaker 1: One one of the things we did. In our recent videos,

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Speaker 1: we talked about, uh, five things you should know about

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Speaker 1: the Highway of Tears, and that was number one on

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Speaker 1: our list. We don't know how many people have been killed.

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Speaker 1: We don't. We're gonna get to suspects and leads and

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Speaker 1: why the three of us, well four of us including

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Speaker 1: no believe that there's more than one killer here. But no,

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Speaker 1: no one really knows we are we are outnumbered by

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Speaker 1: questions in this case. UM, just just briefly, while we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the amount of people, let's talk about this, UM,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about why the Native communities and the authorities, uh,

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Speaker 1: the RCMP have a different body count, say that our

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Speaker 1: CMP Royal Canadian Mounted Police or the amounted they have

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Speaker 1: a different body count because uh that they have identify Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: lets goes back to the Epanic Force, So I guess

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Speaker 1: we have to talk about the panic. Okay. So um

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Speaker 1: EPANA is a task force that was formed in two

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Speaker 1: thousands six and it was used or rather implement to

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Speaker 1: determine if there was a serial killer and they only

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Speaker 1: knew about you know, they were thinking maybe one at

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Speaker 1: this point, if a serial killer was in fact working,

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Speaker 1: the highway was using this as his hunting ground. And

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Speaker 1: they probably at the time, we're suspecting that, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's more than one, but couldn't really say anything. They

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Speaker 1: didn't have a number, a set number of cases in

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Speaker 1: in mind either they knew that lots of women were

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Speaker 1: disappearing from this highway area, they didn't. They couldn't put

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Speaker 1: it an exact number on it yet until they gave

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Speaker 1: it a sort of a set of parameters, something that

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Speaker 1: could kind of narrow down the focus of the PANA.

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Speaker 1: And so these three key points were and I think

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Speaker 1: we mentioned these in the video too, but um female

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Speaker 1: victims only. And then the next the next um characteristic

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Speaker 1: I guess would be that they were involved in a

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Speaker 1: high risk activity as we just talked about, hitchhiking or

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Speaker 1: prostitution or whatever it happens to be. And then there's

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Speaker 1: also mad as you said, the one mile rule, and

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Speaker 1: the one mile rule is um what really angers a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in these communities. Because the PANA Task

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Speaker 1: Force gets all all of the media focus, it gets

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Speaker 1: the attention, it's you know, when when it launched, it

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Speaker 1: had a five million dollar budget, it had seventy officers

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Speaker 1: attached to it. It It was like they're finally doing something.

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Speaker 1: They're they're gonna they're gonna really work this case. They're

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Speaker 1: gonna find out what's happening to um as the locals thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, forty or fifty cases or something like that,

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Speaker 1: you know in the area, because there's there's women missing

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Speaker 1: all the time from this area. Well, what I panna

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Speaker 1: did with this, uh this, you know, these three characteristics

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Speaker 1: are these three points, these the three criteria that people

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Speaker 1: had to or that these cases had to meet. It

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Speaker 1: narrowed it down so finally that it only allowed for

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Speaker 1: the eighteen cases that we're talking about today to be

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Speaker 1: counted as official Highway of tears disappearances, And that really

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Speaker 1: caused a lot of friction in the communities because they said, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's eighteen and they're important, but what about the other

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Speaker 1: forty that you're not talking about, Because as we said,

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Speaker 1: this main highway goes there, But then you've got dirt

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Speaker 1: roads that that off of this road in all directions

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Speaker 1: for a long long way. Then they meet roads that

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Speaker 1: are also parallel and perpendicular. Sure, that's why we mentioned

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Speaker 1: the logging camps, because it's so easy to get more

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Speaker 1: than a mile off the road. Well, I mean it's difficult,

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Speaker 1: but it's more easy. Well, yeah, it's easy to do that.

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Speaker 1: And then and then to imagine, if you're trying to

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Speaker 1: lose a body, you know, dump a body somewhere, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna want to do that somewhere off of the main

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Speaker 1: highway typically, So the ones that were found on the

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Speaker 1: highway or disappeared from the highway. Um, that's a that's

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Speaker 1: a rare situation, right, I mean a relatively rare situation,

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Speaker 1: because I mean eighteen out of you know what locals

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Speaker 1: claimed to be fifty we're so right, Yeah, and again,

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Speaker 1: only the ones that people know about in this documentary

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Speaker 1: that we watched that we checked out together. Uh, there's

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Speaker 1: there's several, Um, there's several just horrifying moments where you'll

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Speaker 1: see someone in one of the communities long Highway sixteen say,

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Speaker 1: you know, my sister disappeared or was murdered and her

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Speaker 1: body wasn't found in the right place, or the authorities

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Speaker 1: just didn't treat it as related. And that has to

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Speaker 1: be so maddening. And I understand that, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: a category for someone posthumously is not going to change

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Speaker 1: the fact that they are dead. But it does affect

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Speaker 1: this investigation because ladies and gentlemen even now, okay, this

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Speaker 1: string of murders that starts in nineteen sixty nine, I

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Speaker 1: think maybe beforehand to uh whatever this is, uh, something

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Speaker 1: about Highway sixteen has become kind of like lake in

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Speaker 1: a savannah where predators flock and uh the so so

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Speaker 1: from nineteen sixty nine or whenever it actually begins, all

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Speaker 1: the way to the present day, of these eighteen cases,

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Speaker 1: how many years solved? Just one? Only one of those

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Speaker 1: cases solved, and we'll tell you. We can talk about

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Speaker 1: the you know, the one that they did solve too.

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Speaker 1: But there's a few more numbers. I think that will

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Speaker 1: shock shock the listeners. If um, five of those eighteen

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Speaker 1: cases are still officially listed as missing cases. There's nobody

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Speaker 1: that has been found yet, so uh, you know, even

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Speaker 1: though they're one of the official eighteen e panic cases, again,

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Speaker 1: five five of them are still considered as missing. Um

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Speaker 1: and in those missing dates go back to three. So

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Speaker 1: anyone between ninete that went missing in nine three had

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Speaker 1: been found. The missing ones begin around three up till

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Speaker 1: about two thousand five. Um, wait, there's so there's a lot,

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Speaker 1: you know, just the the amount of information that this case,

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Speaker 1: these cases, whether it has generated, is enormous. I mean

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Speaker 1: it fills a warehouse for the UM. For the r

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Speaker 1: c MP. They have something like seven hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: boxes of evidence just for those eighteen cases that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about. So they really are digging into this and

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Speaker 1: getting a lot of leads, a lot of information, a

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Speaker 1: lot of interviews, um, you know, gathering evidence whatever they can. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's not that they're not trying, it's just that it's

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Speaker 1: such a difficult thing to do because i mean, again

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Speaker 1: we said it's four fifty miles of territory. Um, it is,

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Speaker 1: you know, just this densely wooded forest area. I mean

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Speaker 1: on either side of the road. It's it's it's desolate areas.

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Speaker 1: It's dark, it's it's damp, it's it's you know, of

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Speaker 1: course it snows. Um, there's there's a lot going against

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Speaker 1: them in this case. There's deep lakes that are just

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Speaker 1: off the road. UM. It's just the terrain doesn't lend

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Speaker 1: itself to finding someone easily when they do go missing.

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Speaker 1: And uh, and I know I'm probably just going a

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Speaker 1: bunch of different directions here, but there's so much about

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Speaker 1: this case that just doesn't just it doesn't feel right.

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Speaker 1: I think, I see what you're saying, Scott, But but

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Speaker 1: what what exactly would you say? Doesn't what's what's given

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Speaker 1: you the spider sentence? Yeah, I guess it's just the Okay.

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Speaker 1: I know it's being handled. I know that they're they

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Speaker 1: are looking into this, and they have they have a

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Speaker 1: vested interest in making this work. Of course, they want

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Speaker 1: their their epan task Force to to be successful. They

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Speaker 1: want to do this for the community, for the people.

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Speaker 1: But the people are saying, you know, the locals, as

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Speaker 1: you'll see in that documentary or whatever you read, because

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Speaker 1: I've read a bunch about this case in the last

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Speaker 1: few weeks, you'll find that there's a great distrust of

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Speaker 1: the police force in that area. And I don't I

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Speaker 1: can't quite put my finger on exactly what it is,

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Speaker 1: but it goes back to the way that they're treated

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Speaker 1: at these residential schools, the way that they feel that

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Speaker 1: they're they're stuck in these in these impoverished regions and

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Speaker 1: these communities, these um it's almost like um like Indian reservations.

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Speaker 1: Here in the United States, it's almost like it's an

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Speaker 1: island upon itself. Each each little community is like that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And additionally, now this is a very touchy subject. But

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Speaker 1: because we don't know how many killers are working in

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Speaker 1: this area, or how how many killers used as a

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Speaker 1: hunting ground, Uh, it's also possible that someone in authority

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Speaker 1: could have committed or been involved with the commitment the

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Speaker 1: commitment of some of these murders and disappearances. And when

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Speaker 1: I say that at this point, folks, I say that

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Speaker 1: purely on the hypothetical um, on the hypothetical side of

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Speaker 1: the of the question of the concept, I don't have

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Speaker 1: and and I don't think any of us have found

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Speaker 1: any proof that there's anything other than, you know, a

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Speaker 1: history of negligence at worst on on law enforcement side.

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Speaker 1: And then in the past few decades there's never been

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Speaker 1: somebody caught um as a member of the Mounted Police

400
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Speaker 1: or anything. So it the true crime or the crime

401
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Speaker 1: novelist in me just sees that as a possibility. But

402
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Speaker 1: there's whether or not that that's possibility. It just it

403
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Speaker 1: needs to be said. Well, this goes right back to

404
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Speaker 1: I mean the Jack the Ripper days, when they suspected

405
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Speaker 1: that it could have been anyone from a urgin to

406
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Speaker 1: royalty to an artist to a police officer. Of course

407
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Speaker 1: they're going to suspect the authorities. And well because they

408
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Speaker 1: have the inner knowledge, the sorry, the inside knowledge um

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Speaker 1: of you know where the patrols are gonna be at

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Speaker 1: what time, and um, they kind of have like ah,

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Speaker 1: I hate to say, like the backstage pass to what's

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Speaker 1: going on behind the scenes and seeing all that and

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Speaker 1: knowing all right, well, here's my way around that. I

414
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Speaker 1: can I can smart you. It's simple, right, like the

415
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Speaker 1: Long Island serial killers suspected to have some sort of

416
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Speaker 1: knowledge of crime scene investigations. Just to jump in really fast,

417
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Speaker 1: guys with an example of how perhaps the authority in

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Speaker 1: this area of views women of I mean, okay, this

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Speaker 1: is in no way blanket tema, but there is. This

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Speaker 1: is an example of the way the avirgin women are treated.

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Speaker 1: So this guy named Judge David William Ramsey, he is

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Speaker 1: a judge. So he was sexually exploiting young women in

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Speaker 1: this community four years. In May of two thousand three,

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Speaker 1: he played guilty to five of ten charges. He was

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Speaker 1: convicted of one count of breach of trust, one count

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Speaker 1: of sexual assault causing bodily harm, and three counts of

427
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: buying sex from a child. That is a bad dude,

428
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: and he's sitting on the bench. Yeah he is. He's

429
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: the guy the authority, and he was dealing with women

430
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: who were of that age. The way he got caught

431
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: was a he was going to see a woman about

432
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: a young woman about a custody case with her child,

433
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: and she recognized that this is the guy who was

434
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: trying to force himself upon her in a car and

435
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 1: then beat her, and she she recognized him and ran

436
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: out of the court. Now, I just want to be clear,

437
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I'm implicated, not trying to implicate

438
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: this man, Judge Ramsey in these cases of disappearance, of

439
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 1: just making a point about how these women were maybe

440
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,479
Speaker 1: seen by some people in the authority. Good point. And

441
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: you know there's a few bad apples there, I guess

442
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: in the in the local lawtainly. Yeah that's where you hope, Yeah, yeah,

443
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 1: just a few, just we can get rid of them quick. Um.

444
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: All right, So there's there's stuff like that going on.

445
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: There's a there's a lot happening all around this case

446
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 1: that I mean, all these little bits and pieces that

447
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: we're telling you about, they all tie in together with

448
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: with you know, the original eighteen cases and and plus

449
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: the others that we you know, haven't really discussed or

450
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: we can't really discuss because we don't know the details.

451
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: Those of unfortunately kind of been lost to time almost really,

452
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: I mean, if they're not on the official e panel list,

453
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 1: they're not getting the attention that these cases are, which

454
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: all the honest, I mean, it doesn't look like they're

455
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 1: even these are getting a lot because they've been budget

456
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: cuts at the epan of Office. I mean, I think

457
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: I said that they had a five million dollar budget

458
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: back in two thousands six when they first reformed or

459
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: late two thousand five, I believe that has been cut

460
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: uh in the year it was cut down to something

461
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: like one point eight million, so a significant cut in

462
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: in their funding, and they went down from seventy officers

463
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: work in these cases, they went down to twelve officers

464
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: work in these cases with with support staff, um so

465
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: a much much smaller task force with the same amount

466
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: of cases. Really, because you know, we said that there

467
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: was one arrest made in this whole thing, so that

468
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: leads us with seventeen cases unsolved. We know of a

469
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: few people that were were involved in this. Now the

470
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,239
Speaker 1: one the one arrest I guess maybe we should talk

471
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: about him, yeah, because these are these could be sereal, right,

472
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: So this one arrest could be you know, at least

473
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: tied to the other ones. Well, yeah, it could be

474
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: tied to the other ones. Now they do know that

475
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: he is tied to two murders. This this person, I'm

476
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: gonna talk about it now. The arrest it was made

477
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: is a guy named Gary Taylor Handling and he was

478
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: aged sixty seven or he is ages age sixty seven.

479
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: He was arrested for the murder of Monica Jack, who

480
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: was only twelve years old, that's horrific back in nineteen

481
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: seventy eight, and another girl who is not a an

482
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: official victim of the Highway sixteen murder. But he was

483
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: also convicted of the murder of a girl named Catherine

484
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: Mary Herbert and again not an official Highway of Tears case.

485
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean And see that that shows you

486
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: that somebody that can be involved in a murder that

487
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: happens on that you know, they can be related. I guess, um,

488
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: you know they could. They could commit one murder that

489
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: is an official one and one that's not, or ten

490
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: others that are not. I mean that that's just the

491
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: way this is going. So. Um, how so how is

492
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: it you know, you know, finally arrested. I think there

493
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: was new DNA analysis that was finally available because of

494
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: nine it just wasn't there. So this is all the

495
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: way in fourteen. Yeah, and that's that's not long ago.

496
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: And the PANO has been around since two thousands six.

497
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: Now that's not the very first break in the case. However,

498
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 1: there was one other break that came earlier on and

499
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 1: this is maybe a bigger lead. Now bigger I mean,

500
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: of course, you know, solve one or two murders here, fantastic,

501
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: that's great work. Um, that's the only officially officially solved

502
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: case on the whole list of eighteen. But there is

503
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: another guy that gets involved here in two thousand and twelve,

504
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: and again this is the first break. So it's like

505
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: six years after the task force was assigned. Um, they

506
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 1: finally matched DNA from an American serial killer. His name

507
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: is Bobby Jack Fowler. Um. They found d N A

508
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: on the on the body of Colleen McMillan, who was

509
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: murdered in nineteen seventy four. So they hung on to

510
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: DNA evidence from nineteen seventy four. I mean, they didn't

511
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: know they were hanging on to DNA evidence. They had,

512
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: they had evidence, they didn't know what they could do

513
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: with it. But um, in two thousand and twelve, they

514
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: were finally able to match it up using UM, you

515
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: know the uh I guess the systems where they can

516
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: you know, the information that automatically matches, you know, ties

517
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: up the database exactly right. We can talk about those

518
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: two because I think it maybe the vi CAP system

519
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: that we're talking about for for the match here, I

520
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: think I think that's the one. Um, and that's not

521
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: the only murdery suspected it. No, No, there's there's others

522
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: that he know. We talked about this to the off

523
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: air ben this is it gets a little bit complicated because, Um,

524
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: this Bobby Jack Fowler guy, he's a he's a bad dude,

525
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: really dude, he is Okay. Um at the time when

526
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: that break came, he had been dead for six years.

527
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: So we said that. You know, you're thinking, well, why

528
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: haven't these cases also been solved? You know, so we're

529
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: chipping away at the case load here. They're not officially

530
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: solved because no one was ever tried for the murder.

531
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: It's it's like it was, it was an unsolved murder.

532
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: They can they can put it to rest and say

533
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: we know who did this one, this one and this one,

534
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: but you never try that person and find them guilty officially.

535
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: Especially for the families of these people, there's there's never

536
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: that feeling of we got somebody, yeah exactly, and that

537
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: that's well amplified by a hundred times. For the ones

538
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: that never find never find their family member, that's that's

539
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: got to be the most well, the worst, the most

540
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: heart wrenching part of this whole thing. And you know

541
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: that documentary that I watched, I guess say I was

542
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: tearing up a little bit when they were talking about,

543
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: you know, some of the families that they don't have

544
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: an answer, They never have an answer, and it's never

545
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: probably going to come. They're not going to find them.

546
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: Um So, I know it's a dismal way to look

547
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: at it, but it's not very likely at this point.

548
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: Um So, this Bobby Jack Fowler guy, can we talk

549
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: about him just for traveling, worked mainly in construction, known

550
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: for uh, known throughout the land for being an absolute

551
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: horrible person. Yeah, I mean the way to described as

552
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: he's a he's an American rapist and serial killer. Alleged

553
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: serial killer because he didn't really do time for the

554
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: serial killing. Yeah. He traveled all across North America, Florida, Louisiana, Texas,

555
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: British Columbia. He was charged with murdering a couple in

556
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine, Yeah, and got off on just a

557
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: firearms offense chart. So he Yeah, he murdered two people

558
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty nine in Texas, I believe, wasn't it, Um, Yeah,

559
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: man and a woman in Texas. But he was. He

560
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: simply was let go after they gave him a slap

561
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: on the wrist basically for a firearms offense. And I

562
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: don't know why that would happen. Be wealthy, No, no, no, no,

563
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: this is a transient construction worker who who traveled all

564
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: over North America's Ben said he was, and we have

565
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: to say alleged serial killer because he again never was

566
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: tried for that specifically, but we do know that he

567
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: was a murderer. And again, this guy, I mean that

568
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: we could go on and on and on, and I'll

569
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: tell you a few more things. He's got an extremely

570
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: violent past, as you as you said, Um, he was

571
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: known as an alcoholic. He was an amphetamine user, a

572
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: meth amphetamine user. He had a long criminal record, extensive

573
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: criminal record. He'd like to drive around and that this

574
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: is anything bad, but he'd like to drive around beat

575
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: a bold cars. I like that too. Yeah, that's the

576
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: thing he's trolling, Franchi. He's putting lots of miles on

577
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: those old cars. You know, He's going back and forth

578
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: between these towns and all these communities. So he sees

579
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: it um and a way, I guess, almost like a sport.

580
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: You know, he's he's going to town. I hate to

581
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: say it that way, but that's the way these guys are.

582
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: They're hunting and and he's going from town to town

583
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: and he can he can get away with it. Because

584
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: of the lifestyle that he's lived his entire life, going

585
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: into bars and motels. Things start to fall apart for Fowler.

586
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: In the mid nineteen nineties, he's arrested in Newport, Oregon

587
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: because a woman that he was trying to tie up,

588
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: rape and kill, uh jumps out of the motel window.

589
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: There's a rope that's tied to her ankle. She survives,

590
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:25,719
Speaker 1: she gets thankfully, gets the police and in nine and

591
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: that leads to a nineteen six conviction of kidnapping, attempted rape,

592
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, coursion, assault, and menacing, which I did not

593
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: know you could get arrested menacing. Sure, Yeah, he's definitely

594
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: a menacing character. So all this is happening, right, He's

595
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: got all this in his background is past, and of

596
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: course they find you know, they find him in a

597
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 1: very unusual situation with this this woman who's jumped out

598
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: of a second story window. Um, clearly something devious is

599
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: going on there that she's she's scared. Um, they get

600
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: a DNA sample from him at this point, because you know,

601
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: now he is captured, he's he's in the system. I guess.

602
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: So he's he's captured and he was in there. When

603
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: did you say Ben was a June of nineteen ninety five,

604
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: I believe. So he's in prison of June of nine,

605
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: and there are more murders that happened on the Highway

606
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: of Tears after June of nine, when he is in

607
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: prison already. Now they do match his DNA with what

608
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: we said it was Colleen McMillan. I believe it was. Yeah,

609
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: they match that from the nineteen seventy four victims. So

610
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: he could have been active on that highway from nineteen

611
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: seventy four all the way through nineteen ninety five when

612
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: he was picked up in June. Now, he was in

613
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: Oregon when we got picked up, so he wasn't it

614
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: wasn't in that area. But that's it's close enough. Really,

615
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: I mean, take a look at a map. It's not

616
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: that far away. It's not that hard to to extrapolate

617
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: that he could have been there as late as nineteen

618
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: nine five. Now I think they have only tied him

619
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: to maybe a couple of these. Now there's others. Yeah,

620
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: there's the one the Colleen McMillan. That's well, that's uh no,

621
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: that's not the one. Well, that's the one that's tributed

622
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: to him officially, but that it's not officially solved because

623
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: he never was tried for it. That like Gary Taylor

624
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: um or Handling rather um the ones that that uh

625
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: Bobby Jack Fowler is considered a prime suspect. And that's

626
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 1: that's another thing. So of course we know he's guilty

627
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: of Collie McMillan. We got that in nineteen four. But

628
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: back in the nineteen seventy three, there were a pair

629
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: of murders, one in October, one in November, and the

630
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: October murder was gayl Ways and the November murder was

631
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: Pamela Darlington. And they both, you know, same thing, right

632
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: off the highway. Both disappeared. I don't know if they

633
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 1: were hitchhiking. I think one was hitchhiking. Both were actually

634
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 1: hitchhiking trying to get to a local bar. I think

635
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 1: it was. And um, again, he's a strong, strong suspect

636
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: in those And many say, and I've heard this, there's

637
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: a there's a number here. Many say he's tied in

638
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: with three other victims. You know, there could be others

639
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,919
Speaker 1: that are, you know, sort of their their tentative about

640
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: saying that he's involved. Then others say not, it's more

641
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 1: like ten. There's more like ten in this region. And

642
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 1: this gives you, gives you a glimpse of just how

643
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: bad this guy is, because they think that in the

644
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: United States, in the United States loan he may have

645
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: as many as twenty victims, but they never caught him

646
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: for any of them. So this guy got away with it,

647
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 1: and he lived in jail for what another ten years

648
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: I think, And then he died, died of lung cancer

649
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: when he was two thousand six sixty six. So you know,

650
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: even though there's this glimmer of hope that you know,

651
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: we know what happened. We can piece it together. We

652
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: know that, you know, in night, the early night seventies

653
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: and um, possibly as late as the nineteen nineties, he

654
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: was active on this highway and involved with with what's

655
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: going on. We kind of know what's going on. It

656
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: gives families just a little bit of closure, but not

657
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: what they need for sure. And that's only one of

658
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: the killers on the Highway of Tears that we know about.

659
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 1: We're going to look at some more of the killers,

660
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: the ones who have been caught in other circumstances, right, uh,

661
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: the ones who are suspected. I mean, this is like

662
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: true detective style monster, right. This is the kind of

663
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: guy that you imagine when you imagine any horrible human being.

664
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: I'm glad you put it that way, because that's a

665
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: that's a good visual visualization of this guy. Take a

666
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: look at his mug shot if you get a chance,

667
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: just just do a Google search for Bobby Jack Fowler

668
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 1: and you will not be upset by what you see there.

669
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: It's gonna be exactly what you think. He looks like

670
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's awful. Before we go too deep

671
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: into the killer stuff, you guys, I do have one interesting,

672
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit less grizzly trivia effect. Yes please,

673
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: we were talking, um, we we're talking off air before

674
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: when we were making the video about what epana stands for. Yes,

675
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,720
Speaker 1: since the task Force, the task Force investigating the Highway

676
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: of Tears, uh i, Panah actually comes from the name

677
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: of a god in Inuit mythology, which is Pana, and

678
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: Panna is a god who cares for souls in the underworld, alright,

679
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: very nice before they are reincarnated. 's a deep meaning

680
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: behind and this task force, because I had just kind

681
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 1: of assumed that it would be an unnecessarily long acronym,

682
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: that's exactly what I thought. Maybe it's more of the

683
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: US government that does that stuff. Well, car companies. We

684
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: know that bees love to make up acronyms. So with

685
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: that brief with that brief reflective moment, I guess it's

686
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: time to dive back into some of the other murderers. Yeah,

687
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: you know, and we just kind of wrapped up with

688
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: Bobby Jack Fowler and how he couldn't have been involved

689
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: with you know, I guess a specific set of murders

690
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: that happened after he was in prison, and they are

691
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: careful about laying that out in the in the cases here,

692
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: when when you read about the eight team that are involved,

693
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: you know, the ones that are the official cases, they

694
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: make a special point to say that Foller was apprehended

695
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: for crimes in the USA in June of this year,

696
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: and therefore it couldn't have been involved with this murder

697
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: from this point on. So what they're what they're saying,

698
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: is everyone up prior to this one, you know, you

699
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: never know. I mean they're saying strong subs back in

700
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: three well two of the you know, there's one that

701
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 1: they knew he was involved, strong suspect and the other two.

702
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: But then others say, and we're we're kind of looking

703
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 1: at him for more than just those two. Well, one

704
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: of the issues would be then tracing the timeline of

705
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: that killer's travels, which is going to be difficult given

706
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: the time period there, well, difficult given his character as well,

707
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: because he's again he's on the fringes of society, basically untraceable,

708
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: I mean, really as close to it as you can get.

709
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: So we have a couple other killers named. We mentioned

710
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: Gary Taylor Handlin. Yeah, we have some other people on

711
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: the docket as well. Cody Lejabakov. Cody Lejabakov if you

712
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: are Canadian and aunts are you have heard of this killer? Uh?

713
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:56,399
Speaker 1: Cody lejabakof um operating in British Columbia, born in Guy.

714
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,839
Speaker 1: He's a young guy. And uh, I want to point

715
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: this out, none of these were officially highwave tiers murders,

716
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: but it's it shows you that he's operating the same

717
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: area right near Prince George. Yeah, four victims and again

718
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: he's really close, but he's not officially involved in this

719
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: whole thing. So so this is the third one that

720
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: we're talking about here. And then we've got that whole

721
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: other set of victims that um, you know, the four

722
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: that happened after um Fowler was arrested. So that means

723
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: that there's at least one more operating. So so I

724
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 1: didn't mean to derail here on Cody, but um, what

725
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: have you got about Cody, because um, he's also bad

726
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: at four or four murders and he's like twenty one

727
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, and uh, he was convicted on four

728
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: counts of first degree murder almost a year ago today

729
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: September eleventh, two thousand and fourteen. He maintains his innocence

730
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: and said that he was involved with the murders, but

731
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: that a drug dealer and to the drug dealer's friends

732
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: were the actual murders. And these kind of fanciful tales

733
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: are often spunning courtrooms by the disturbed. Is this the

734
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: guy that they actually they saw him pulling off of

735
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: a logging road in his truck. The officer pulled him over,

736
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: asked him about it. I don't know if it's like

737
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 1: an equipment violation or something. Something was wrong. He knew

738
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:14,919
Speaker 1: he shouldn't have been there, so he talked to him,

739
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: realized that he had blood stains on his on his

740
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 1: pants and on his shoes, I think, and shirt and everything.

741
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: So the officer goes back down the road that he

742
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: had just you know, come off of, the one that

743
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 1: the truck had just exited from, and he finds the

744
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: remains of a woman who had just been dumped, I

745
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: mean just like it had been murdered within hours of

746
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: when when he found her. So he caught him red

747
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: handed leaving the crime scene, and he is saying, I'm

748
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: not involved in this. Is somebody else his His original

749
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: statement regarding the blood on his pants when asked by

750
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: the police was that he was poaching and he had

751
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,760
Speaker 1: clubbed a deer to death because quote, I'm a redneck.

752
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: That's what we do for fun. Yeah, and uh, I

753
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: mean it doesn't get much more clear than this that

754
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 1: you know he of course, the this is this is him.

755
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: He's got he's got right handed, he's got you know,

756
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: the uh, he's got all the evidence on him around him.

757
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:08,479
Speaker 1: The truck is the course seized and you know that's

758
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: loaded with DNA evidence. Um, it's it's definitely him in

759
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: this case. Now there are four women I think, uh

760
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: the oldest one was like thirty five years old, which

761
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: is a bit out of the ordinary for this uh

762
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: four Highway of Tiers. Yeah, because at this point the

763
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: the ages range from twelve to thirty three. So the

764
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: this would have been the oldest person on the list

765
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: had they been included in the official Highway of Tiers list.

766
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: But they're not. These four, these four are separate issue.

767
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: And this this goes to something else. I want to

768
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: make a note here about the allegations of cover up,

769
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: because I neglected to mention this earlier. There has been

770
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: an actual cover up in that the Ministry of Transport

771
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: deleted emails regarding regarding the case. That report comes from

772
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 1: from employee there, Tim Duncan and Tim duccan said that

773
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: an aid deleted the learned assistant excuse me, deleted the emails.

774
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: So when you hear people talk about a cover up,

775
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 1: that's what they're talking about. It's alleged to be about

776
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: a dozen emails about meetings with a d First Nation

777
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: leaders along the Highway of Tears and one of the

778
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 1: community leaders about this and one of the community leaders,

779
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: Carriers Sikhani Tribal counselor Mavis Ericsson, she says this is

780
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 1: part of a continual uh cover up, that the emails

781
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: are kind of a tip of n Iceberg thing because

782
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 1: she did not hear about the meetings at all in

783
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: any shape or form. And she says, I'm gonna read

784
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: this quote. There's a cover up going on, and I

785
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 1: think this just shows more of that fear that we

786
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 1: have that things are going on in the government wants

787
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: this whole story to go away. It's been going on

788
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: for years and so the destruction of these alleged emails

789
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: is just more of the same, you know, ben who

790
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: what was the officials name? Again, the one that supposedly

791
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: deleted the emails. Tim Duncan is the one who reported it.

792
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: He was an executive assistant. He said he was told

793
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: to delete emails requested under the freedom of information at Okay, now,

794
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: isn't there something a little bit JANKI about this as well?

795
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: Where he handed the keyboard over to somebody else to

796
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: actually officially delete the emails unidentified with clear conscience, say

797
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: I never deleted those emails, right, although it was under

798
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: direct you know, direct request of right and you can't say,

799
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 1: but you can say, and men pass the test and says,

800
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't officially delete those emails and if

801
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,760
Speaker 1: any um, I don't know. That letter versus the spirit

802
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: of the law kind of stuff is pretty sticky. But

803
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: but while we're while we're mentioning that that note, um,

804
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: we should also say that we're not sure why this

805
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: cover up has occurred. We're not sure why those emails

806
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: are deleted other than um, you know, often in politics

807
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: it's not some grand, over arching um plot so much

808
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: as it is a bunch of people trying to look

809
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 1: better for promotion. Well, sure, and you know this, this

810
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: ties back into um, i'lcohol it conspiracy, but it's not.

811
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's really conspiracy or not. People

812
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 1: believe it is that they're just not paying as much

813
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: attention to these cases because of the people that are

814
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: involved in it. They're saying, because it's Aboriginal woman, because

815
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: its First Nation women. Uh, it's not. It's not as

816
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: important as if you know, the Canadian citizens, the Caucasian

817
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,720
Speaker 1: Canadian citizens, not the first Nation people were being murdered

818
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: at the same rate. If if that was happening, Uh,

819
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: there would you bet there would be extra law enforcement

820
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: here to take care of this matter. They would be here,

821
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: you know, in spades, trying to make sure that they

822
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: got this taken care of and wrapped up quick. I

823
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: can imagine if if the murders were taking place on

824
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 1: a highway between let's say Vancouver and uh somewhere else

825
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 1: in the demo graphics were very different of these victims. Yeah,

826
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: I can see how it would be seen as a

827
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: bigger problem given a lot more attention. And so maybe

828
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: this is what makes the area attractive to predators. But

829
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 1: the fifth and final point that we mentioned in our

830
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: podcasts or in our video earlier is this and this

831
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: is what I want to explore towards the end of

832
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: our show today. It's not just Highway sixteen. It's not

833
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 1: just Highway five or Highway nineties seven or any other

834
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: Canadian highway, because it's not just Canada. We dug up

835
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: some stats about the FBI's search for serial killers in

836
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: the US Interstates, and so we did. And you know what,

837
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: I found this fascinating when I dug this up, because

838
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: I I love things like this where where it's not

839
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: known to the public for quite some time and then

840
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: they reveal it. Right, I'm sure you're as well. So

841
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: back in two thousand four, there was a privately launched

842
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: and initiative by the FBI here in the United States,

843
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: and this was called the Highway Serial Killings Initiative, and

844
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: the idea was to create a sort of repository for

845
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:15,439
Speaker 1: information about um serial murders that were happening, not not

846
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: just on one highway, but really nationwide here in the

847
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 1: United States. Now, if you haven't heard about this, I mean,

848
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: this is something that really it should be a huge

849
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: eye opener for every listener that this happens along every

850
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: highway in the United States. I mean, you can take

851
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: a look at the map of the victims that they

852
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: talk souse. We're not limiting this to just one highway

853
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: one you know, one mile either way on either side

854
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: of the highway. We're talking about, you know, people that

855
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,959
Speaker 1: were last seen on or were dumped on the US

856
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 1: interstate system. And you can do the same thing for Canada.

857
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: You can do the same thing for Germany. You could

858
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: do the same thing in Africa. You can do the

859
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: same thing anywo wherever. It doesn't matter. This this happens worldwide.

860
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: But the numbers here in the United States, I mean

861
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: the numbers are something like that. They've identified like six

862
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:05,760
Speaker 1: victims and two hundred and seventy suspects, you know, fairly quickly. Um.

863
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 1: That was that was in the first five years of

864
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 1: this initiative happening, you know, like with the first five

865
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: years of operation. And that is when they finally went public.

866
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: They announced in two thousand nine that they had this initiative.

867
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: They said, you know, here's what we found. It's terrifying,

868
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: but you need to know about this. They were tracing

869
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: some leads they found this first the the initial inspiration

870
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: for this came when the Oklahoma State Bureau of investigation

871
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: and the Grapevine, Texas Police Department started working together as

872
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: they recognized a pattern of prostitutes who were found murdered

873
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: along the I forty corridor in the south and the Midwest.

874
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: So they started saying, let's profile who could this be

875
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: and the answer was clearly a long haul trucker. Yeah, well, yeah,

876
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: there's a there's several that they've already caught, They've arrested

877
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: a few, they made a few arrests. And this is

878
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: what's interesting is they found a couple of truckers work

879
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: been together, I guess as a serial killer team on

880
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: the highways, which is terrifying. But um, one that stands

881
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: out I guess would be Robert ben Rhodes. And Robert

882
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: ben Rhodes is again another character along the lines of

883
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,919
Speaker 1: Fowler as far as just how awful of a human

884
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: being this person is. Um, he's a long haul trucker

885
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: from Houston, Texas, and he spent fifteen years torturing and

886
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: killing women in the cab of his truck as he

887
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 1: traveled across the United States. So this is this is

888
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 1: a huge, huge problem, I mean for many, many reasons.

889
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: But so this is like just a small fraction of

890
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: what's happening well worldwide of course, but also on the

891
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: Highway of Tears. And you can take that, you know,

892
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: can extrapolate that to what's happening on highways across the

893
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: United States and across all across Canada. The numbers are enormous.

894
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: I think there's something like twelve hundred missing or murdered

895
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: Aboriginal women across Canada from like I think it's like

896
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: mid nineteen up until two thousand twelve or something like that.

897
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: It's a big, big number. Um here we've accounted for,

898
00:48:57,760 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: you know, with the FBI Task Force something like six

899
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: read Um. I think there's got there's got to be

900
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,720
Speaker 1: more than that. I'm sure that there are. But the problem,

901
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: you know, these uh, these these long haul truck drivers

902
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: like um, like Robert ben Rhodse. And there's another one.

903
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: His name is Bruce Mendenhall, who was an Illinois trucker.

904
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: Um he was he. I think he's finally busted after

905
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: he murdered a murdered a twenty five year old truck's

906
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 1: dot prostitute in Tennessee and police found a sack of

907
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: bloody clothing in his truck cabin. You know, at the

908
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: time he had just committed this murder. Um later they

909
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,879
Speaker 1: found blood from five additional women in the same cabin

910
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: of that truck. So that means that, you know, that's

911
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: six victims for him Rhodes. I don't, I don't remember

912
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: exactly at the top of my head, but um, you know,

913
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: DNA evidence in his truck counted to you know, lead

914
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 1: to many, many of these victims missing victims. Um, it's

915
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: it's a huge problem for law enforcement because it's like

916
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: a mobile crime scene. It's they're they're they're comfortable in

917
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: their cab, in the cabin their truck, that's there, that's

918
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 1: their their comfort zone. Yeah, exactly right. And I read

919
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 1: somewhere I think it was a guy named Jack Levin.

920
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 1: He's an author of a book called mass Murder America

921
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: is Growing Menace way back in and it's it's basically

922
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,240
Speaker 1: not not the first but one of the first books

923
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: about serial killers that was widely published, widely read. And

924
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: he kind of laid down some groundwork or ground not

925
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: ground rules, but yeah, elements of what a highway killer

926
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: might operate like or it might be like. And he

927
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: said that you know, they tend to stick to established

928
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,320
Speaker 1: comfort zones and these well this is serial killers in general.

929
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 1: But these guys, their comfort zone is the cabin their truck,

930
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: and I think that's what's happening on the Highway of

931
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,359
Speaker 1: Tears as well. But the comfort zone is right there,

932
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 1: and they stop at a truck stop, they pick up

933
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 1: a prostitute, you know, with the promise to take her

934
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: to the next town as well. She gets in and

935
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: that's the last anybody ever sees ever, or just or

936
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: just twitch hikers, because Rhodes would pick up couples, immediately

937
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 1: kill the male and keep the female. Yeah, see that

938
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 1: I mean devious, but it's it's awful what happens. But

939
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: then they drive them into another Jersey diction, you know,

940
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 1: which could be a hundred miles away, could be five

941
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: miles away, and dumped the body and then they see

942
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: it as somebody that is possibly just a transy because

943
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 1: you know, we have no um, we have no recognition

944
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: who this is. We don't have any kind of prints

945
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: on file. Um, we don't know anything about this victim.

946
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: So that's the problem is that with such great distance

947
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: between all these cases happening, uh you know, well the

948
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 1: disappearance and then the actual you know, the turning up

949
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 1: of the body. It's it's really a difficult situation for

950
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: them to solve. And even given systems like you know,

951
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 1: the the VIY CAP system or Canadians version of that,

952
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: which is called the VI class system, which is a

953
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: violent criminal um you know, the system that the UH

954
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: ties together people with DNA information and fingerprints and photographs

955
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: and uh you know, the last known whereabouts and all that.

956
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: It's like it's an electronic evidence matcher. Yes, exactly right,

957
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 1: and that's been around since the nineteen eighties. But there's

958
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: a there's a problem with even with that. So you

959
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: can see all these hurdles that that they're trying to

960
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: UH overcome here and the problem with the biggest problem

961
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 1: with that by CAP system. They're talking about again, this

962
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: is a violent criminal apprehension program. So you think that

963
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 1: this would be something that is mandatory. It's not mandatory

964
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 1: for law enforcement. For law enforcement in a situation where

965
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,320
Speaker 1: there's a murder. Now, so this goes back to the

966
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties again, they're trying to find patterns of you know,

967
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: these complex multi jurisdictional murders. So you think that you know,

968
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: this would be a super effective tool and it can be,

969
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: it can be very helpful. But the problem is you

970
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: have to have enforcement officers that that do the due

971
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,280
Speaker 1: diligence to put the information in and get the system

972
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: to work the way that it should, and then someone

973
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: to analyze it and make sure that it's the reading

974
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 1: it correct. Well, I see that, but I also think

975
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: that part of part of the problem we should factor

976
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 1: in isn't just manpower. It's ultimately expense. Yeah, because it's

977
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 1: a sixteen page form that they have to fill out. Now,

978
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: how long do you think it takes an officer to

979
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: fill out a sixteen page form with detailed investigation information

980
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: or you know, information about a particular homicides and all

981
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 1: the not all the law enforcement agencies play nice together. No,

982
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 1: exactly right, And that's that's the other frustrating thing is

983
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, butting your head against the wall

984
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: because you can't get the other guys to talk to

985
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,399
Speaker 1: you when you need them to. And and not only that,

986
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: there's things that they may know that they don't know

987
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 1: as part of that they don't understand as part of

988
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 1: this case. And if they were ever to talk, and

989
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: sometimes that's what happens, they accidentally stumble across some information

990
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 1: that they say, wait a minute, that you just struck

991
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: a nerve with me. Hang on a second. They go

992
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 1: through their box of files and find you know, whatever

993
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: it is, or you know, probably electronic information. But um,

994
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: it's these chance occurrences that sometimes lead to to solving

995
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: these But if this, if this system were to work

996
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: the way that it should, I mean, it's a well

997
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: laid out system. The VICAPP system in the bike class

998
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 1: system in Canada and other places have similar systems for

999
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: violent criminals. But if they could just get it all

1000
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 1: to work together, if they could get somebody to analyze

1001
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 1: the information correctly, if they could you know, there's a

1002
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 1: lot of ifs in the story, but if they could

1003
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 1: do that, they might make some headway on some of

1004
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,879
Speaker 1: these cases. So here's the worst thing for me. You

1005
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: have to get caught first one time for something in

1006
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 1: order to even be in that system. Right True, If

1007
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 1: you're like Bobby Fowler and you just haven't gotten caught

1008
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:18,399
Speaker 1: for a long time, then you don't It doesn't Well,

1009
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 1: he was repeatedly arrested, but unless he unless use arrested

1010
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 1: for something that would specifically put him in that violent

1011
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: crime database, right there through and what I was talking about,

1012
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 1: that sixteen page form is for particular characteristics of a homicide,

1013
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 1: and so you know, there's lesser there's lesser versions of that.

1014
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: So like you may input him in the system and say,

1015
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 1: this guy is an alcoholic who likes to fight at

1016
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 1: the local bar. Um he got you know, busted for

1017
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 1: breaking a bottle and stabbing somebody in the arm with it,

1018
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: you know, but um, you know, I don't know what

1019
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: charge that would come with. But that's what he's in

1020
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,839
Speaker 1: the system, as not necessarily as maybe we caught this guy.

1021
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 1: He's suspected of, you know, being a serial killer. So

1022
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: I guess it really depends on just how much effort

1023
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 1: they put into correctly categorizing these people when they put

1024
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: them in the system. It's vital, however, I mean, and

1025
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 1: sorry to bust in. I don't want to interrupt what

1026
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 1: you guys are saying, but it's vital for this sort

1027
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: of stuff to be done. At last count, I think

1028
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 1: there was an investigation discovery piece on this. There are

1029
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 1: twenty five, twenty five former long haul truckers currently in

1030
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 1: prison for serial murder. Wow, well that's a significant it's

1031
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:32,919
Speaker 1: a hell of a big number. That is a big number. Now,

1032
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 1: I know that you're saying twenty five and we're saying

1033
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 1: that's a that's a huge number because they're responsible for

1034
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,839
Speaker 1: more than one just by nature being serial killers. Yeah,

1035
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: and that that's occurring over a period longer than a month,

1036
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 1: So multiple victims longer than a month. That means these

1037
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 1: guys are out there for a long time doing this,

1038
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 1: who knows how many. And of course we are required

1039
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,879
Speaker 1: to say, of course we're going to point this out.

1040
00:55:55,520 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 1: The vast majority of people in the world, let alone truckers,

1041
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 1: are honest, hard working people who are just trying to

1042
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 1: get a buck. But we were talking about I think

1043
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,760
Speaker 1: that it's it's more fair to say that these people

1044
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,439
Speaker 1: who are using the veneer of being a trucker are

1045
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 1: not actually trying their killers. Yeah, that's their primary but

1046
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 1: this is this is the way that they get to

1047
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: do what they do, and uh, and they find it.

1048
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 1: You know, if they were to eliminate that from their life,

1049
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 1: you know, the trucking part of their life, they wouldn't

1050
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 1: be able to do this. And and they're never going

1051
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,399
Speaker 1: to give that up. So one of one last thing

1052
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: I guess that I needed is that you know, looking

1053
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: into all these numbers, and we said, have been you know,

1054
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: convicted of being circulars or that are known ser killers

1055
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 1: that um, the FBI is captured. They say that, you know,

1056
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 1: there's the numbers are just enormous. You know, how many

1057
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,399
Speaker 1: they believe are out there in the highways. Now I've

1058
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:53,439
Speaker 1: seen numbers that range, well, there's huge range. So we'll say,

1059
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: you know, we we think that at any given point,

1060
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: there's sixty seven serial killers work in the highway systems

1061
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: at any given time. Others I say, three hundred and

1062
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 1: everything in between. So it's a huge, huge number. And

1063
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of people really know that

1064
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 1: this is happening out on the highways. And it's not

1065
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: just the US, it's not just Canada, it's not just Europe.

1066
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: It's all over the world. It's it's it's happening. So

1067
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: use some caution. Really, I mean, when I started reading

1068
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: about all this stuff, it just it really is an

1069
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 1: eye opener. Yeah, I mean, it makes it makes you

1070
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 1: fear for anybody traveling. Uh, you know, you want to

1071
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: be very diligent about you know, checking in and knowing

1072
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: where they're going to be and when they're gonna be there,

1073
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 1: and it's it definitely distorts my memories now of running around,

1074
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes truck stops, sometimes rest stations along the

1075
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: highway system in the US. Sure, I used to sleep

1076
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 1: at rest stops in my car because I had that,

1077
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 1: you know, I have my day trip or road trip

1078
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 1: math about how far I could go, and I would

1079
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 1: arrange that by you know, I would arrange that by

1080
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 1: where I could stop at a park or at a

1081
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: rest stop. And we haven't even looked about disappearances in

1082
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: national parks, which may be a podcast for another day.

1083
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 1: But the truth of the matter, listeners, is that there

1084
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: exist more than one level of a culture. The US,

1085
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 1: the world that most of us know if we live here,

1086
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: is more like the top layer of an onion. There

1087
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: are people who just travel from National Park to national park.

1088
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 1: There are killers who just travel up and down I

1089
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: forty and I know it sounds alarming, and it is.

1090
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 1: But unlike some alarm ass things, this is terrifying because

1091
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: it is true. Uh Now, Matt, earlier off there, you

1092
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 1: said that you had you had one more thing that

1093
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 1: we should end on. Is that correct? I did? I

1094
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 1: was gonna wait, wait a second, are you getting that too.

1095
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: Is it just my head phones? Are you guys getting that? No,

1096
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 1: I hear it too, some sort of almost like the

1097
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 1: sound of a truck rolling through the distance, but also grown.

1098
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 1: But all some drums were talking here and stuff. What's

1099
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: going on? Hey, everybody, ladies and gentlemen. It is uh,

1100
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 1: super producer Noel Brown. That music always means, of course,

1101
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: at a time for a moment with Noel. Hey man,

1102
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: how are you doing? Ben Matt Scott? You're making some

1103
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 1: serious eye contact with us as you were saying her names.

1104
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 1: I'm well, thank you for asking her. Yeah, so did

1105
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: you did you catch what we were talking about? I'm

1106
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 1: gonna have to be like really honest with you. This

1107
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 1: is a one of the rare situations where I've actually

1108
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 1: been jumping up and down and going on the other

1109
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 1: studio and doing other things. So I actually have no

1110
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 1: idea what this episode was about. Well, hey, well you

1111
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: should check click it out. Well, Well, when I edited,

1112
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure, Well we were, you know, we were talking.

1113
00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:00,040
Speaker 1: We started talking about a thing called the Highway of

1114
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 1: Here's I'm not going to go to in depth in it.

1115
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 1: Let's just recap the whole thing. We just did a

1116
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:09,439
Speaker 1: show on it. No, no, yeah, you guys, I heard

1117
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 1: snatches here. I get that. Okay, we had, you know,

1118
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: we had to ask Scott on because this this is

1119
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 1: something that is related both to the automotive world and

1120
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 1: to the true crime worlds. And Scott's also kind of

1121
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: a stand up guy. So yeah, shucks, yeah, no, no,

1122
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 1: you're I just had to, okay, really fast, bring something

1123
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 1: up in apropu of nothing. I have to say that

1124
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 1: every time I see the notes that Scott Benjamin takes

1125
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 1: and the way that he takes them and arrange them,

1126
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 1: every time I see it, I am thoroughly impressed, not

1127
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: only that you function in that way, but that there's

1128
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: so much detail going on here. There there are okay,

1129
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 1: so it's this yellow I guess that's notebook paper, legal pad, Yes,

1130
01:00:56,720 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 1: it's a legal pad. And then there are post it

1131
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 1: notes all over it with like pointing to things and

1132
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 1: say okay, this is where we go from here, this

1133
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: is how we get to hear I love it. It's uh,

1134
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 1: that's that's you know, I left over from back in

1135
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:10,720
Speaker 1: my days of like floor directing, you know, for for

1136
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 1: video shoots and things, because you had to walk your

1137
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 1: way through a complex script or something that you know,

1138
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:18,479
Speaker 1: you don't shoot in order, so you have to map

1139
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 1: all that stuff out ahead of time. And I find

1140
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 1: that's the way that I worked best. So I just

1141
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 1: kind of carried over into the podcast as well. Thank you. No,

1142
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 1: I have to I'll see Scott just standing at the

1143
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 1: window writing on the window panes with a grease pencil. Uh,

1144
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 1: just red rum over over again. Uh so, UM, I

1145
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: have to I have to ask the um we talked

1146
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 1: about this in this question for everybody, Uh, what like,

1147
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 1: does does this affect your earlier conversation or the earlier

1148
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:55,439
Speaker 1: conversations we've had about hitchhiking. This this whole idea of well,

1149
01:01:55,520 --> 01:02:00,080
Speaker 1: this whole truth about the amount of serial murder is

1150
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: getting away Scott free. No offense on on the on

1151
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 1: the interstates. I mean, I didn't need anything to affect

1152
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 1: my outlook on you know, picking up hitchhikers. But sure, adamant, Yeah,

1153
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 1: I think that you know, a little bit of healthy

1154
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:16,360
Speaker 1: paranoia is probably good for the old self preservation game.

1155
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 1: I would say, that's just me. Call me, you know,

1156
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 1: m Jay didn't. But I'll get mad at you if

1157
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 1: you call me jaded. That's never one sculture definitely not jaded.

1158
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 1: He's a little bit. Guys, but well, I don't know,

1159
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 1: I would say optimistic. Uh that's fair, that's fair, it's fair.

1160
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 1: But what about you, Scott definitely, Well, you know, I

1161
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 1: I've already kind of already kind of skittish about it. Anyways,

1162
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:43,440
Speaker 1: you know, um, should you? Should you not? But Uh,

1163
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 1: the cases that we're talking about, it's always that the

1164
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 1: bad guy is the one that's picking up the hitchhiker. Yeah,

1165
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: it's not the other way around. It's not that the

1166
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 1: hitchhiker is the bad person. And and those cases happen

1167
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 1: as well, you pick up a bad dude on the

1168
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 1: road and something horrible happens, you know, to either an

1169
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 1: individual or emily or whatever. But this is like the

1170
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 1: opposite of that. So it kind of gives me like

1171
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 1: even more um, just information in my head to swim

1172
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 1: it around like this is just a bad deal. Don't

1173
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: don't pick up a hitchhiker. No, and don't hitchhike. In

1174
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 1: our earlier Car Stuff podcasts, which you can check out

1175
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 1: listeners if you're interested on hearing more about hitchhiking. Uh.

1176
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 1: In our earlier podcasts on this uh, we talked a

1177
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 1: little bit about the rise of hitchhiking being associated with

1178
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 1: counterculture in the sixties, right, and how the I think

1179
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 1: it might have been the FBI, but government agencies propagated

1180
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 1: this idea that, uh, you know, stones hippies were gonna

1181
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 1: kill you because stoners are notoriously furious impulse if they're

1182
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 1: also sex go getters. Right, yeah, and uh, and so

1183
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:57,200
Speaker 1: how much of that is fear culture and how much

1184
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,040
Speaker 1: of it is healthy skepticism? Now, of course, I I

1185
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,720
Speaker 1: also think you have to exercise judgment. My girlfriend, as

1186
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 1: I think I mentioned on car stuff, has banned me

1187
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 1: from picking up pitchhikers. I just like strangers meet too,

1188
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 1: but pen there are other ways you can meet strangers

1189
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 1: all over the place. Man, it's a hazardous activity, that's

1190
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 1: what he's saying. I mean, everybody's kind of a stranger.

1191
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 1: You don't really know someone, do you. Wait, I've fully

1192
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:31,360
Speaker 1: like scenes got a couple of times that's true. Come

1193
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 1: on every day. Well, let's end before we started accusing

1194
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 1: each other various murders. Uh, guys, I know this was

1195
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 1: a long podcast, but we hope that you I don't

1196
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 1: know if enjoyed it is the right word, but we

1197
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 1: hope that you found it interesting, Can I can I

1198
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 1: just say something. I know that we say this every

1199
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 1: time on car stuff, but we we try to put

1200
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 1: out so much information, so many little bits and pieces here,

1201
01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 1: and we try to tie it together the best we can.

1202
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 1: You know, we're using these complex notes that MA sure,

1203
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 1: but um, you'll be doing yourself a big favor if

1204
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 1: you were to search it and read about it yourself,

1205
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 1: because that way it just kind of makes a little

1206
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 1: more sense. It might be laid out in in a

1207
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 1: way that makes more sense to you. But hopefully we

1208
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 1: got to the main points and at least open your

1209
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,479
Speaker 1: eyes to a problem that's happening, and and maybe even

1210
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 1: just kind of give you that a little bit of

1211
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 1: I guess maybe a little bit of fear when you're

1212
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 1: out there in the highway that you know, just be cautious,

1213
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 1: be aware. Yeah, and an awareness. I think awareness is

1214
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:30,920
Speaker 1: one of the biggest issues with these things. Just if

1215
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 1: if more people knew that it existed, I feel like

1216
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 1: it becomes a part of zeitgeist and then we can

1217
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: actually put you know, from enough people care about something,

1218
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 1: it will get the presence that it needs, the maybe

1219
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 1: even the funding that it needs. Sure, and I didn't

1220
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,520
Speaker 1: I mean fear. I shouldn't have said fear. Maybe awareness

1221
01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 1: is much is a much better way to see there's okay.

1222
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 1: I feel like this is the most important point, and

1223
01:05:56,920 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 1: so I held onto this for a while, but just

1224
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 1: to be just to be absolutely clear for everyone listening

1225
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 1: to this, whether you are involved in some way with

1226
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:10,520
Speaker 1: the Highway of Tears or whether this is a story

1227
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 1: you've heard for the first time, our collective hearts go

1228
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 1: out to the victims. There are more than eighteen, and

1229
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 1: a bureaucratic division does not change that fact. And we

1230
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 1: hope that the law enforcement folks who are often outnumbered

1231
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:29,440
Speaker 1: by problems UH and the set by red Tip, we

1232
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 1: hope that uh they are like their work pays off

1233
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 1: because these people are busting their humps, and UM, it

1234
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 1: would it's time for these families to have closure if

1235
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:45,680
Speaker 1: at all possible. Agreed, And that's the end of this

1236
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 1: classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about

1237
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 1: this episode, you can get into contact with us in

1238
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 1: a number of different ways. One of the best is

1239
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 1: to give us a call. Our number is one eight

1240
01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 1: three three std w y t K. If you don't

1241
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 1: want to do that, you can send us a good

1242
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 1: old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i heart radio

1243
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:09,960
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff they don't want you to know. Is

1244
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 1: a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from

1245
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the i heart radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1246
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.