WEBVTT - What Sets You Apart Makes You a Part 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.200 Welcome to Time Out. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.879 New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:13.400 activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:16.759 And I'm Doctor add In the Rucar, a physician and 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:21.080 medical correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:24.360 mental health, and burnout. We're here to peel back to 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:27.600 layers around why it's so easy for society to guard 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.960 men's time as if it's diamonds and to treat women's 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.400 time as if it's infinite like sands. And whether you 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:37.200 are partnered with or without children, or in a career 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:39.960 where you want more boundaries, this is the place for 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:44.000 you for all family structures. We're here to take a 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:49.560 time out to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim 0:00:49.800 --> 0:01:01.440 our time. High d D Hi, Eve, I'm feeling a 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:04.800 little nostalgic today because this is the end of our 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:08.440 first season and this has been such a fun and 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.440 a really interesting ride with who we've been able to 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.760 talk with. So as I was thinking about the end 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:18.399 of the season, I really wanted us to address this 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:23.160 idea of legacy, what we're remembered for because at the 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:25.720 end of the day, you know, it's not always the 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.840 things that we spend our time on. That's why we're 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:32.200 here in the Time Out podcast right to scrutinize and 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:35.080 encourage people to make active decisions about how they spend 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:37.520 their time. So the story I wanted to tell you 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:39.679 today has to do with my day job, which I 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.880 don't talk about that often on this podcast, but for 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:46.280 over ten years, as you know, I've been a philanthropic advisor. 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:49.520 I work with families on their legal matters and their 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:54.720 governance related to family businesses, family foundations, families that look 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.360 like the HBO show Succession. As we've laughed and said, 0:01:58.080 --> 0:01:59.800 and as we said to our listeners, you should feel 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:03.880 bad for me. But one story that really stood out 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:06.720 to me was right before the pandemic, one of my 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:11.080 clients in the Pacific Northwest called me and said, I 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.919 was thinking about you today. I was at a funeral 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:18.200 and so I said to my client, well, thanks, it's 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:19.520 really nice of you to think of me when you're 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:22.360 at a funeral. What made you think of me? And 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.680 he said, well, I'm at a funeral of a colleague 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.000 and my client is a tighten of business in the 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:30.919 Pacific Northwest. This was another tighten of business in the 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:35.560 Pacific Northwest. He had passed away. There was a packed church, 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.640 and my client was there to pay his respects. In 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:43.359 the church, something happens where all three of his daughters, 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:46.480 the man who passed away, all start to approach the 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:51.080 podium where they were going to speak, and they say 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:56.080 things that are silly, childlike poems. So the first daughter 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.960 goes up, she recites a poem that's like a Shelf 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:03.960 Silverstein poem, rhyming and beautiful and funny, and the audience, 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.560 the mourners start laughing. And then the next daughter comes 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:11.200 up and she does the same thing. It's a different poem. 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:15.080 And then the third daughter comes up and also reads 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:19.560 a really funny, silly, beautiful, rhyming poem that again sounds 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:21.880 like it was published by someone. And then everyone in 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:25.200 the audience is very confused. My client tells me, and 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.360 then all three daughters lean into the microphone and say, 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.400 those were poems our father wrote for us as the 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:38.560 tooth fairy. Wow, he was our tooth fairy. And what 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:43.320 my client was reflecting on after leaving the church was 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:48.720 that nobody talked about his business career. What people were 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:59.320 remembering from that day were his poems, the fact that 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.400 it was probably strange back then for any man to 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:07.240 be the tooth fairy. Even now in my data, that 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:11.040 usually is done by women and heterosist gender partnerships. But 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.080 on top of it, what my client said to me was, 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.080 I had no idea, working with this man for years 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.960 and years that he was a poet, such a beautiful, 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:26.280 skilled poet. And it got me thinking about how we're remembered, 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:31.640 what do we spend our time on and why, And 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.400 so I would love to hear your thoughts, because we're 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:38.279 going to get to hear from our amazing guests, Nor McNerney, 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:46.960 who really speaks so deeply about issues of legacy, grief, existence, 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:52.200 existential meaning. But I'd love to hear from you about 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:56.479 this idea of an act of legacy. I read about 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:00.360 it and find your unicorn space, this idea that we 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.880 can't control how we're remembered, whether it's this titan of 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:07.599 business who will be remembered in that room for his 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:12.000 poems and other things. But I do know that we 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.360 can start to think about our values and how we 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:20.080 live our daily lives that will shape how people remember us, 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.520 and I wanted to know what are things that you 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.320 think about in terms of what we can focus on now, 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:31.200 what our priorities can be now as we think about 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:35.400 how we will be remembered in the future. So first, 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.360 before we talk about this idea of an active legacy, 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:42.080 they think back to this Harvard study it's called the 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:46.640 Harvard Happiness Study. And more than money or titles or 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.760 positions of power or all of the things, you know, 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:53.320 many of these men were titans of business, as you say, 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:55.599 and yet when it came down to the end of 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.520 their life and they reflected back on their life, the 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.440 greatest marker for happy enus was the quality of relationships 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:06.360 that these people had over seventy five years. So when 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:10.560 we think about leaving an active legacy, it's less about 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:15.200 the doing and more about the being. There is another 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:18.760 really beautiful book that speaks to this, written by a 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.159 woman named Brawny, where the Top five Regrets of the 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:26.479 Dying And she was a palliative care nurse and spent 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:31.159 years sitting at the bedside of people as they took 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:36.040 their last breath in hospice care. And she asked these 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.360 people as they were dying, what do you wish for, 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:43.239 what do you regret? And everyone said their most common 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:47.040 regret was in quotes, I wish I'd had the courage 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.359 to live a life true to myself, not the life 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:55.159 others expected of me. It's about living a life with 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:57.360 no regrets. So when you get to the end of 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:00.520 your life, as we all will, hopefully for any of us, 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:04.880 we won't have that sense of regret. Shout out to Ben, 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:07.920 my ten year old son, who knew we were going 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:11.200 to be talking about an active legacy and what makes 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.440 a successful life and I was sort of joining on 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.680 and on about it, and he says to me, well, 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:21.680 it's just really one sentence, mom if you want to 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:23.840 think about what an active legacy is or what a 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.040 successful life is. And I was like, okay, well tell 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:30.280 me and he said, well, an act of legacy, living 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:35.840 a successful life really is living a life you would repeat. Wow, 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.080 it happens in the small moments. It happens when you're 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:42.080 sitting at desk at night and start scribbling that poem 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:44.320 for your child that ends up going under their pillow. 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:49.239 The beauty of these hard questions is that it's really 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.360 just about making these small moments matter that add up 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:56.760 to a life you would repeat. We're so excited to 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:59.680 talk about all of this with our guests, Nora mcannerney, 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.840 author of It's Okay to Laugh and No Happy Endings 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:07.400 and also the creator of Terrible. Thanks for asking the podcast. 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:27.000 We'll be speaking to her after the break. For so 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.640 thrilled to have Norah McInnerny here with us. Norah is 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.480 the author of the amazing memoirs It's Okay to Laugh 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:37.880 and No Happy Endings and hosts of Terrible. Thanks for 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.760 asking the podcast. We were hoping you would start by 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.800 just telling listeners how you got into the work, um 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.640 of what you do now, who you are, and about 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:54.400 your background. Hi Eve, Hello d D. I am an 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.920 author of several funny books about sad things, and I 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:05.120 am a remarried widow raising a blended family here in Phoenix, Arizona. 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:09.960 And before all of that, I was just a regular 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:15.240 Midwestern gal whose life had unfolded more or less the 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.760 way that it was supposed to. I had had a 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:21.200 semi traumatic experience in fourth grade where I got a 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:26.800 bowl cut. Other than that, my life was blessedly boring. 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:29.720 I did all the right things at the right time. 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.360 I went to college, and then I got a job 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.280 and I fell in love when I was twenty seven, 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.720 which in the Midwest was pushing it. I fell in 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.360 love with this guy and he was thirty one older, man, 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:46.400 felt very sophisticated, and it was so perfect. It was 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.000 so annoying, like every love story is, which is you know, 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.120 didn't expect it, And there he was. And a year 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:56.480 into our relationship, he had a seizure at work and 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.960 I met him at the hospital. We really didn't think 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.680 it was serious. Even when the doctors told us he 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:07.600 had a brain tumor. We just thought, well, it can't 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.680 be cancer. Those are the things that happened to other people. 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.920 We will be the people who have a nice, little, 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.800 benign brain tumor. And this is a story that we 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:20.160 we tell and we laugh about someday, and we do. 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:23.319 We did laugh about that story, but only because it 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:25.880 was a very bad brain tumor. He had stage four 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:30.599 glioblastoma and we were married a month after it was 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:34.840 removed from his head, and his funeral was on our 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:40.160 third wedding anniversary. So Aaron and I were together for 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.719 four years. We were married for almost three. We had 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.640 a son together, Ralph, who is now nine years old, 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.040 and who is a part of this version of my life. 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:54.520 And I have this whole different life, this whole different 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:58.880 career that I never could have imagined, because I had 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.920 no imagination, and I could not have perceived of a 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:08.880 life other than the one that I hoped for and 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.600 had anticipated having, which is that you do the right 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.439 things and then the right things happened to you, and 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:20.680 instead I have a very different, very beautiful life that 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.360 I love, and I have a very different career that 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:28.520 I love that I never ever would have chosen. Imagination 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:32.360 is an interesting word to me, Nora, because it ties 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:37.480 to this idea of a legacy, an active legacy, right, 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:41.240 this idea that instead of just looking behind saying the 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:43.880 best days are behind us, I would say that I 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.880 would challenge us all to have imagination, to say what 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:52.000 does it actually mean to live an active legacy? And 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.440 so the question I wanted to ask you, Nora, is 0:11:55.760 --> 0:12:03.760 why does it sometimes take and extraordinarily terrible experience for 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:07.240 people to wake up, whether it's the pandemic, whether it's 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.840 the death of a spouse, a d D. You've said 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.120 that it's been a cancer diagnosis for many of your patients, 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.120 why do we have to wait for something terrible to 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.480 happen to us, for us to wake up to say, 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:23.880 we are living on a treadmill that has been decided 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:26.960 by somebody else, not us, and I want to live 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:31.840 my life by what is important to me. I am 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.319 so interested a d d. In your take on this, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:41.040 because we talk a lot about mindfulness as a practice, 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.160 like I'm gonna turn on this app and be mindful 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.680 for ten minutes, you know, I'm gonna And I did it. 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.440 I did my mindfulness, and I've certainly treated it like that. 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.679 But I think one of the reasons why the time 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.320 that I had with Aaron, and most of the time 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:59.400 that I had with him, he was very sick and 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.120 life was very hard, but that those hardest days of 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.880 my life were to date still some of my happiest days, 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:11.560 because we were so present, and because looking too far 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:16.400 into the future meant imagining a future where he might 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:19.880 not be there would most likely not be there, and 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:24.280 looking too hard at the past was useless because what 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:26.800 was even there? Like what was there? We we knew 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:28.800 that there was nothing we could do to have, you know, 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:32.280 change the outcome. I couldn't have gone back in time 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:36.000 and rearrange the cells and his brain. So we're so 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.040 so present with each other. And I do think that 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:46.280 when the bottom falls out, what remains is so so valuable, 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.440 even if what remains is not that great, if you 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.760 could choose it, you know, the fact is like we don't. 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.040 We don't get to choose it. And I wish so 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:59.600 badly that I could live all of my life, even 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:04.199 those previous decades before Aaron was sick, with that same awareness. 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:07.480 And I wish I knew how honestly, I wish I 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:11.480 wish I knew how. While your story is so powerful, 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.839 what's so interesting in hearing you and Eve talked about 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:21.240 this is this idea that anxiety is a future focused emotion. Right, 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.240 that was the first thing I thought about. How you 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.680 talked about being mindful and that like truth of the 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:28.800 universe is just to be president in the moment. What 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.160 is mindfulness? And that's what it is. But when we're 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.200 thinking about the past, there's a lot of regret, maybe 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:37.960 feelings of depression and going back, and then we often 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.640 say that anxiety is a future focused emotion, what if, 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.080 what if? What if? What if? Rather than being in 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:48.640 the now. For many of my patients. When something traumatic happens, 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:52.440 it is a great reckoning. And to Eve's question, that 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.280 original question of why does it take something like that 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.240 to happen, I often think it's because we are so 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.120 set in our complacency and it's the only thing that 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:07.440 shakes us out of our complacency. And then suddenly there's 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:11.200 that reckoning. And I loved when you talked about that 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.920 like essence. Right, you didn't use that word essence, but 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:18.040 that kernel of when everything falls apart, what's left, and 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.280 that feeling of what's left and pairing things down is 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.920 what we've really experience during the pandemic. You kind of 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:28.440 recognize that your time here isn't necessarily guaranteed. That is 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:30.840 what keeps us too when we when I talked about 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:35.360 imagination before, you can feel bad for anybody, right, And 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:37.640 I had a lot of pity. Right. I could drive 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.240 around the Minneapolis where I lived at the time and 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:42.280 be like, Oh, I feel bad for that. That makes 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:45.640 me feel bad. But that's different. That's not compassion, and 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:50.160 that's not imagination, right, It's just it's projection. And the 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.960 reality of compassion and of having a good imagination, a 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:59.160 good sense of awareness is that awareness that what you 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.040 think sets you part is actually what makes you a 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:06.640 part of the world, of this universe, of your community. 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:08.800 I want to just focus on what you just said 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:15.800 about what sets you apart, makes you apart, because I wonder, um, 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:18.280 if we could talk a little bit about that, this 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.720 idea that I've never seen in this in my research 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:28.120 for my second book around creativity and constraints, I've never 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:32.400 seen somebody say when I had, you know, a hard 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.720 thing happened to me. I have never heard somebody say 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.480 that it made them not feel less a part of 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.040 the bigger world, which I thought was so interesting to me. 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:43.760 You would think that it would it would lead to 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:49.440 retreat and anger and wanting to never face the world again. 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.120 But that really wasn't. At least my data is so. 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.600 And I wonder again if you see this in your communities, 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:56.840 where this idea of what sets is apart all of 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.520 a sudden makes us apart of something, whether it's your 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:04.960 text chain of widows, whether it's the community for women 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.160 with postpartum anxiety, whether it's so many of my friends 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:13.000 who have had cancer diagnosis these part of new different communities, 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:18.160 whether it's full of creativity, sharing imagination, like you said, empathy, 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:24.480 even some surprise. So it makes me hopeful that maybe 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:26.879 if we look at this pandemic and all the individual 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.200 things that happened to us, could be come out living 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:34.160 an active legacy that is connected to that apart a part, 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:38.560 not a part, a part of something bigger. And I 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:40.800 wonder if you see that in your community. Do you 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:43.440 hear stories like that, Nora, from the people that share 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.879 with you after you were sharing with them. Yeah, and 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:48.800 I lived it too, which is not to say that 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:55.080 I didn't also go through just like intense depression and isolation, 0:17:55.440 --> 0:18:00.000 and also when I would look back at those moments 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.280 where I felt like I am totally alone, there's nobody 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:07.560 else here and everything is the worst. I also had 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:12.280 so much community in so many ways. Aaron and I 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:16.240 wrote his obituary together. We put it in the local paper. 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.240 I didn't think they would publish it, but this is 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.120 a fact for everybody who's listening. They will publish anything. 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:22.760 You pay for it. It's an ad for your death. 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:26.000 You can so live it up. And we revealed his 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:30.359 identity as Spider Man and it went viral, which was 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.480 a different, simpler time. Okay, it was a simpler time, 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:35.920 and I got so many messages. This is how I 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.360 started terrible. Thanks for asking. Most of our episodes are 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.600 stories that came to me where people are reaching out 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.879 and sharing something with me. These were complete strangers from 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:47.880 around the world who did not know me, who did 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:49.679 not know erin, who were like, I'm here with you. 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.879 I know loss, and i know how disorienting it is, 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:56.760 and they were offering me something, and they would share 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.800 their own loss with me with detail that they may 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:04.960 never have given their friends or family members. In part 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.639 because there is that recognition you might be a safe 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.320 place for me to put this. You just might be. 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:14.119 And I've tried so hard to make sure that I 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:18.880 am that safe place for other people. And David Kessler. 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:21.679 He worked with Elizabeth Coogler Ross on the five Stages 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:25.040 of grief. He wrote a recent book called Finding Meaning, 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.280 which is the sixth stage of grief. I have seen 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:32.040 this in almost every story that I've encountered as I 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.560 meet people too, which is that once you go through something, 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.720 you want to somehow like use it for some good 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:41.040 right that you are not the only one. I see 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.159 that all the time. I think it is the most 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:48.200 human reaction that we can have to say I want 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:51.879 to ease somebody else's suffering in a way that mine 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:57.160 was or was not. That it's like that idea their 0:19:57.200 --> 0:19:59.640 cracks and everything. That's how the light gets in, right. 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:05.200 And there's this concept of a therapeutic presence, meaning it's 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:10.960 when you're with someone and their presence feels healing. That 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:14.200 idea of a therapeutic presence is very important. It also 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:18.560 has been shown recently in new emerging studies that it 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:23.160 has an actual role to play in healing. And even 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:24.720 I in the past have talked a lot about the 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:28.200 difference between healing and cure and how someone may never 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.000 be cured because it might be an incurable disease, but 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:35.000 they can be healed. The thing about this group effect, 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:38.280 which is so fascinating, Nora, it's what you're saying, this 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:43.480 idea that when we have a lived experience, a tragedy, 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:46.720 something that really defines and shapes us and shapes our 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:51.760 story forever. It's like there's that clear delineation before and after, 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:55.040 right like that one incident. As human beings, we are 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:59.359 meaning seeking, purpose driven creatures. We need to make meaning 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:03.600 and send out of difficult experiences. It's just an evolutionary 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:06.639 trait that we have, and so that when we go 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.399 through something difficult, and like you said, Nor at the start, 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.840 you felt alone and isolated, and then you put out 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:16.000 that obituary and all of these people started reaching out 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:19.760 to you. It helped to normalize and validate the experience, 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:25.640 which somehow helped you feel less alone, more connected, and 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:28.840 a greater sense of therapeutic presence all around you. You 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.720 were also able to give that therapeutic presence to others, 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:36.119 and that's that group effect. It is a true scientific 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:40.000 and measurable effect. And you've all done something different as 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.040 a result of this event. That's also important to say. 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:46.360 You found meeting and purpose and created a whole career 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:51.040 as someone who offers their therapeutic presence to others. Thank you. 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:58.240 And all I wanted to do was to make sure 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:02.000 that people knew that they were not the only one 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:06.040 and to validate the fact that life is hard for 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:09.960 everybody in different ways. And that is all we want 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:12.320 as people is you feel seen and heard, and if 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:16.040 you don't, try to make somebody else feel that way, 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:18.520 and it will, and it will, it will hopefully at 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:20.840 some point, like reflect back to you, will come back 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:23.840 to you. When you talk about leaving and a living 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:27.040 an active legacy, Eve, It's like what you do is 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:30.720 you reflect back to people the things that you didn't 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:34.959 have right in the moment, and you are also showing 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:39.439 people what is possible. I was reading something yesterday about, 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:43.200 you know, the privilege of vulnerability, right, this idea that 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:46.080 a lot of times it's hard to be vulnerable if 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:49.440 you aren't in a place of privilege where you may 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:52.240 not feel like you have that supportive community or even 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:56.640 a supportive job. So there is a privilege in vulnerability. 0:22:56.680 --> 0:23:02.080 But you know, when you use those redemptive experiences of vulnerability, 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:05.800 I wonder by doing something with it if we're if 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:08.440 that's part of an act of legacy. Other people don't 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:11.520 may not have that ability to use their voice for 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:13.959 that type of vulnerability. And how can I create that 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:17.720 community or a world where everybody is entitled to that 0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:24.320 type of imagination, surprise, compassion. You know, we we this 0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:28.760 This first season has been about understanding that time is 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:34.160 not infinite, that time is diamonds, that we get one life. 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:38.320 It may be interrupted abruptly, or as you said, if 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:41.439 we're lucky, we get more time on this earth. But 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:46.119 it's just one life, and this episode we wanted to 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:49.960 end the season on it because we believe this idea 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:54.359 of an act of legacy is living on this earth 0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:57.800 with intention, which is the exact opposite of what you 0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:02.040 said when we started, which was this idea of living 0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:07.199 life without really thinking about the decisions were necessarily making, 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:11.880 living on a treadmill, auto pilot, not paying attention. So 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:17.160 for us to understand time, we thought you could help 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:22.480 us wrap up the season by this recognition that maybe 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:25.359 all of us won't have a wake up moment, a 0:24:25.440 --> 0:24:27.960 light bulb moment. So what can you say to those 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:32.639 people out there who didn't have, you know, an experience 0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:35.320 like you had obviously, but do you want to learn 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:38.680 from what you did? What can they do and put 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:42.480 into practice? To live a life where time has really 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:44.560 looked at the way it should be is our most 0:24:44.600 --> 0:24:50.000 valuable currency. I do think sometimes that that realization or 0:24:50.040 --> 0:24:55.639 that acknowledgement to live constantly with the sense of a 0:24:55.680 --> 0:25:00.080 ticking clock is also not healthy. Right If every a 0:25:00.240 --> 0:25:02.199 you wake up and think this could be it like 0:25:02.240 --> 0:25:04.800 that is that is no way to live. There is 0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:07.520 no way to live. But there's this Mason Jennings song 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:12.679 that I listened to you over and over when Aaron 0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:16.960 was first diagnosed, called be here Now, And those are 0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:19.880 basically the lyrics, right like be here now, no other 0:25:19.920 --> 0:25:25.080