1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: I was a pilot with the Sesky Gearman from starts 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: of Finnish. We were flying close escort with the bombers 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: and we did stay with them on over the targets. 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: When you realize that that fire they're putting up was 5 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: meant to knock the out of the sky, that gets 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: your attention. The success that these two units met, that 7 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: the people who ran it would have a firm place 8 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: in the United States Air Force. On this episode of 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: News World. At the State of the Union on Tuesday, 10 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: February fourth, President Trump honored legendary aviator and one of 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: the last surviving Tuskegee Airman, Brigadier General Charles McGhee. McGee 12 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: turned one hundred years old on December seventh. In his speech, 13 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: Trump said, after more than one hundred and thirty combat 14 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: missions in World War Two, McGee came back to a 15 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: country still struggling for civil rights and went on to 16 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: serve America and Korea and Vietnam. President Trump said, General McGhee, 17 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: our nation salutes. I was inspired by General McGhee and 18 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: thought we should devote an episode to the Tuskegee Airman, 19 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: the only African American pilots in combat in the Army 20 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: Air Forces during World War Two. The Tuskegee Airman overcame 21 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: segregation and prejudice to become one of the most highly 22 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: respected fighter groups of World War Two. They proved that 23 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: African Americans could fly and maintain sophisticated combat aircraft. The 24 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: Tuskegee Airman's achievements, together with the men and women who 25 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: supported them, paved the way for full integration to the 26 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: US military. I'm pleased to welcome my guest, doctor Daniel Holman, 27 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: supervisory historian that the Air Force Historical Research Agency, Maxwell 28 00:01:49,440 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: Air Force Base retired. So what drew you to them 29 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: out of all the different areas you've looked at in 30 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: the Air Force. I started my tuskege Aman research in 31 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: two thousand and six. That's when I wrote my first 32 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: article about the Tuskegee Airman, and I was focusing then 33 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,119 Speaker 1: on the number of aerial victory credits they scored during 34 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: World War Two. I was a member of the Society 35 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: for Military History, and I decided to do an article 36 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: about one of the phases of research that I was 37 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: engaged in at the Air Force Historical Research Agency at 38 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: Maxwell Air Force Base, and that was keeping track of 39 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: the aerial victory credits of all the Air Force pilots, 40 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 1: and I decided to focus on a unique group or 41 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: group of squadrons, and that was the three thirty second 42 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: Fighter Group, the Tuskegee Airman. The Tuskegee the first black 43 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: pilots in American military service. What was the impetus to 44 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: create the Tuskegee Airman before they went to Tuskegee was 45 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: a part of the Army Air Corps. It was probably 46 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: mainly a promise that Franklin D. Roosevelt made nineteen forty 47 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,239 Speaker 1: when he was running for his third term for president. 48 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: He promised that he would allow the training of black 49 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: pilots in the Air Corps. And of course, the Air 50 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: Corps is the descendant of the Air Service. The Air 51 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: Corps started by law in nineteen twenty six, and the 52 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: Air Corps had no black pilots until the Tuskegee Airman. 53 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: But after Franklin D. Roosevelt made that nineteen forty promise 54 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: in March of nineteen forty one, the ninety ninth Pursuit 55 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: Squadron was constituted and then activated at Chanootfield, Illinois. It 56 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: had no pilots yet, but the war Department announced in 57 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: January of nineteen forty one that the pilots would be 58 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: trained at Tuskegee. So the ninety nine was sent to 59 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,839 Speaker 1: Tuskegee without pilots. The pilots were trained at Tuskegee, and 60 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: it was mainly, I think Franklin D. Roosevelt. It was 61 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: pushing for the training of black pilots. They had never 62 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: been blacks in the Army Air Court in any shape 63 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: or form. In fact, when I first applied, they informed 64 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: me flat out that they had no blacks in it, 65 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: they had no plans to have blacks in it, and 66 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: there was no use even applying. And this happened to 67 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: most of us. It's very interesting that President Franklin Roosevelt 68 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: and his wife Alan Roosevelt were very instrumental in this, 69 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: because on one hand, Roosevelt himself was not a great integrationist, 70 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: but his wife had tremendous social consciousness, and she actually 71 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 1: went to Tuskegee and flew with Chief Anderson, who was 72 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: a tough test pilot and chief instructor pilot, to find 73 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: out how it was to fly with a black man. 74 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: And when she went back, she told Franklin that those 75 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: men are perfectly marvelous pilots. You are to give him 76 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: a chance. Plus the fact the NATV was talk about 77 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: sewing them if you were saved from Chicago or New York. 78 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: They're being asked to with into a segregated environment for 79 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: their training. That was controversial at the time because a 80 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: lot of the black civilian pilots. There was a civilian 81 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,799 Speaker 1: pilot training program all over the country for blacks and whites, 82 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: more for whites than blacks. But there were selected universities 83 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: around the country, six of them that trained black civilian pilots. 84 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: One of them was Tuskegee Institute at the time. It's 85 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: Tuskegee University today. But those pilots were trained partly in Chicago, 86 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: and there was a question about whether the training of 87 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: black military pilots would be in Chicago or at Tuskegee 88 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: or some other place. And one of the reasons Tuskegee 89 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: was chosen it was because of the good flying weather. 90 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: They had a lot more days of good flying weather 91 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: than Chicago did. Another reason was because Tuskegee was ready 92 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: training a lot of civilian pilots, But that argument could 93 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: be made for Chicago as well, and it was somewhat 94 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: controversial when black pilots who were trained as civilians in 95 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: Chicago and other places went down South. It was controversial 96 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: with the NAACP two the National Association for the Investment 97 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: of Colored People, because they wanted the black military pilot 98 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: training to be integrated. They wanted the black pilots to 99 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: train at the white flying training basis, but the War 100 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: Department insisted that they be trained on a segregated basis, 101 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: and that's another reason why Toskegee was chosen. I think 102 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: the NACP felt like they had to support the program anyway, though, eventually, 103 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: because it would be better to train black pilots on 104 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 1: a segregated basis in the military than to have no 105 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 1: black pilots at all. To what extent did the local 106 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: community react to having black pilots. That's a good question too, 107 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: because Tuskegee at the time was really two communities in one. 108 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: There was the black part of Tuskegee, which included Tuskegee 109 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: Institute during the war years nineteen forty one in nineteen 110 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: forty five, the majority of the people at Tuskegee were black, 111 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: but there was a white part of the community that 112 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: resented the training of the black pilots, and partly for 113 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: that reason, there was some controversy. When the black pilots 114 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: would enter town. They were more subject to arrest than 115 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: some of the other people who came into Tuskegee. There 116 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: were some racial incidents. There were two main flight training 117 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: bases at Tuskegee, one of them at Moton Field where 118 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: the primary flight training took place, which is the site 119 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: of Tuskegee Airman National Historic Site today, and Tuskegee Army 120 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: air Field, which was a much larger air field owned 121 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: by the War Department, where the basic and advanced flight 122 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: traine took place. Those training bases were a few miles 123 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: to the north and northwest of Tuskegee, the town. I'd 124 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: say the white people who lived in Tuskegee resented the 125 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: black trainee being so close to them, but of course 126 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: the majority of the citizens of Tuskegee, the black citizens, 127 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: welcomed them, and Tuskegee Institute, of course welcomed them. How 128 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: did the tuskeeam and end up the Tuskegee While they 129 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: were looking for a place to do this, they did 130 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: not want to put us into the system. The system 131 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: wasn't those days that you took primary in one, basic 132 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: somewhere else, Advanced somewhere else. She'd rather than have us 133 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: integrate the services at all. They decided to build a base, 134 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 1: a small base sus South, the Tuskegee Institute, that's where 135 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: the name comes from, where they would train us. They 136 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: would give us primary, basic, advanced, and fighter training at 137 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 1: the same little installation. And that's how we got it. Well. 138 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: Part of that, I think was at Tuskegee Institute, which 139 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: was founded by Book of T. Washington, was a prestigious 140 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: African American institution in Alabama, and because of the need 141 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: to have good weather for training, they said, well, let's 142 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: set it up at Tuskegee. Although at that time the 143 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: NAACP was really opposing this because they wanted the black 144 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: trainees to go to different places with the white pilots. 145 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: But the fact is, in retrospect we could see that 146 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: Fred Patterson, who was the president of Tuskegee, was right 147 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: because if we had sent us individually the various white basis, 148 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: none of us would have gotten through because of racism 149 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: had existed at that time. Were they recruited from all 150 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: over the country, Yes, they were. They came from all 151 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: over the country, and at first the standards were that 152 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: you had to have a college degree, you had to 153 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: have at least some college courses before you could even 154 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: enter the cadet pilot training. And during the co World 155 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: War Two, the requirement for that, not only for the 156 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: black pilots but also for the white pilots was reduced 157 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: and there was a college training detachment formed at Tuskegee 158 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: Institute in coordination with the War Department to help those 159 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: who did not have college to get some college so 160 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: that they could be flight cadets in the Army Air Forces. 161 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: But I'd say they were the cream of the crop. 162 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: They came from all over the country to Tuskegee for 163 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: the pilot training, so it was a very competitive process. Yes, 164 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: it was, and I would say that there were about 165 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: two thousand cadets who ended the program and only about 166 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: a thousand who completed the program because the standards were high. 167 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: And sometimes people criticize the training there because the standards 168 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: were so high, but I think really it was a 169 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: feather in the cap of the training program. The commander 170 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: of Tuskegee Army Air was Noel Parish. Colonel Noel Parish 171 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: is remembered by most of the Tuskegee airman I've met 172 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: as a very fair man who was really interested in 173 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: the success of the training program. He also advocated integration 174 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: of facilities on the base, and he integrated the facilities 175 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: at Tuskegee Army Airfield. But he was also interested in 176 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: turning out pilots that were as good as any of 177 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: the white pilots. He didn't want any of the cadets 178 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: who didn't show proficiency to get their wings, but the 179 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: ones who did get their wings, and there were about 180 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,599 Speaker 1: a thousand of them, were as good as any of 181 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: the white pilots in the country in his opinion. Were 182 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: they being trained originally by white instructors? Well, that is 183 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: true for the military flight training, the basic and advanced 184 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: flight training that took place at Tuskegee Army Airfield. At first, 185 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: all of the instructors at Tuskegee Army Airfield for the 186 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: basic and advanced training were white, and throughout the war 187 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: the majority of the flight instructors at Tuskegee Army Airfield 188 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: were white. However, for the primary flight training, and that 189 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: took place at Moten Field, which was really owned by 190 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: Tuskegee Institute. At the time, the primary flight training, mostly 191 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: with biplanes on grass, was dominated by black flight instructors. 192 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: So if you were a cadet going through the Tuskegee 193 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: Airman flight training program, you'd go into primary flight training 194 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: first at Moten Field with black flight instructors, and then 195 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: when you finished the primary training, you would go to 196 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: Tuskegee Army Airfield, where the white flight instructors were the 197 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: military flight instructors, and then be trained mostly by white 198 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: pilot instructors. And that's understandable because there were no black 199 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: military pilots at first, so the military flight instructors were 200 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: all white at first. Next, why that's a Skegee Airman's 201 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: three hundred and thirty second Fighter Group are also known 202 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: as the famous Red Tails. Were they moving specific units 203 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: like in forty two, forty three, forty four as a 204 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: unit got trained and moved to Europe. How did the 205 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: next phase of going from training to combat occur? Well, 206 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: the ninety ninth Fighter Squadron moved to Tuskegee in nineteen 207 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: forty one, got its first pilots in nineteen forty two, 208 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: and then went from Tuskegee directly overseas in the spring 209 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: of nineteen forty three, and when it went overseas, it 210 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: went to North Africa and it was attached to a 211 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: white fighter group because it was the only black flying 212 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: squadron overseas at the time. In the meantime, the three 213 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: thirty second Fighter Group with three squadrons the one hundred, 214 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: three h first and three or second Fighter squadrons, was 215 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: activated at Toskegee, and when it had enough pilots to 216 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,719 Speaker 1: be operational, then the three thirty second Fighter Group and 217 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: its three squadrons deployed to Michigan to Selfridge Field, Michigan 218 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: from further training and trained there until early nineteen forty four, 219 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: and then the three thirty second Fighter Group and its 220 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: three squadrons moved to Italy, where the ninety ninth Fighter 221 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: Squadron was already stationed by that time. In the summer 222 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: of nineteen forty four, then the ninety ninth Fighter Squadron 223 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: was assigned to the three thirty second Fighter Group, which 224 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: already had three squadrons. The reason for that was they 225 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: wanted to put all the black flying squadrons under the 226 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: same group, so that made the three thirty second Fighter 227 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: Group the only black fighter group overseas. Have four squadrons 228 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: instead of three, so it had more squadrons, more pilots, 229 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: more aircraft than the average fighter group in the fifteenth 230 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: Air Force. That summer of nineteen forty four was also 231 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: revolutionary because their mission changed. They were flying for the 232 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: twelfth Air Force supporting ground forces until summer of nineteen 233 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: forty four when they were assigned bomber escort missions. They 234 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: were going to escort B seventeen and B twenty four 235 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: bombers and be one of those seven fighter escort groups 236 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: of the fifteenth Air Force, and so they changed aircraft. 237 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: They first flew P forties and P thirty nines for 238 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: the twelfth Air Force. For the bomber escort missions, they 239 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: flew P forty seven's and eventually the P fifty ones, 240 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: whose tails they painted red. Why did they do that? 241 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: I mean, that became very famous. In fact, there was 242 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: a movie made about it. Yes, it did. And sometimes 243 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: there's a distortion about that. Sometimes people get the idea 244 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: that they were the only fighter group over there that 245 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: decided to paint their tails red, and that they were 246 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: the only fighter group that had distinctive colored tails. That's 247 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: not true. Every fighter group, especially for those that escorted 248 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: bombers had distinctive colors of the tails. The three thirty 249 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: second Fighter Group, of course, had the solid red tails, 250 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: The thirty first Fighter Group, which also flew for the 251 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: fifteenth Air Force in escorting bombers, had striped red tails. 252 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: The fifty second Fighter Group P fifty ones that had 253 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: yellow tails, and the three twenty fifth Fighter Group had 254 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: tails that were checkerboard patterned black and yellow. So every 255 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: group had its own distinctive colored tail so that they 256 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: could be identified not only for the bomber groups that 257 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: they were escorting, but also to be able to help 258 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: distinguish them from enemy fighters. When you were getting into 259 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: all this in your mind, who were the people who 260 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: really shaped the culture and the morale, who became sort 261 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: of the standard setters for the Tuskegee Airmen. Who are 262 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: the individuals you look two you think that person really 263 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: made history. Well, I would say there were a lot 264 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: of them, and they were not only black but also white. 265 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: I'd say Benjamin O'Davis Junior is by far the most 266 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: famous of the Tuskegee airman and justifiably so because he 267 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: was trained at West Point. His father was the first 268 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: black general in the Army. He became one of the 269 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: first black pilots. He was in the first class to 270 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: graduate from flight training at Tuskegee. He became the commander 271 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: of the ninety ninth Fighter Squadron, and then he became 272 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: the commander of the three thirty second Fighter Group. Back 273 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: in World War Two, we had an onlygro fighter group 274 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: that I commanded, and later a medium bombardment group. The 275 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: success of these two units met particularly the Fighter group 276 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: in combat in North Africa sicily in Italy, meant that 277 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 1: the people who were in it would have a firm 278 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: place in the United States Air Force. I think we 279 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: got question. This has to be so very very important 280 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: that it's the most important thing that happened to me 281 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: during my career. Eventually, he became the commander of the 282 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: first black bomber group which didn't go overseas, the four 283 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: seventy seventh Bombardment Group, and so he definitely became the 284 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: most famous of the tuskegear. I mean, he became the 285 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: first black general in the Air Force. The first three 286 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: black generals in the Air Force were Tuskegee airman the 287 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: annual CHAPPI. James did not fly overseas in World War Two, 288 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: but he became the first four star black general in 289 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: the Air Force and in any of the services. He 290 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: did fly in Korea and Vietnam. And I'd say Noah 291 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,479 Speaker 1: Parish should be given some of the credit too, because 292 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: he was the commander of Tuskegee Army Airfield during most 293 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: of World War Two and he turned the culture around 294 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: at Tuskegee. The commander of the Tuskege Army Airfield before him, 295 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: who wasn't there very long, was very unpopular because he 296 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: segregated all the facilities on the base. He wanted to 297 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: keep the blacks and white separated. Noah Parish was not 298 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: like that. Noah Parish improved the morale and some of 299 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: the black personnel if you look at their descriptions of 300 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: the way things were at Tuskege Army Airfield, they respected 301 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: Noah Parish and they thought that he was truly interested 302 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,239 Speaker 1: in their success. Sometimes you hear people say, well, the 303 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: Tuskegee Airman flight training program was designed to fail. I 304 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: don't think Noah Parish believed it was designed to fail. 305 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: He was determined that it would succeed, and partly because 306 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: of him, it did succeed. I was very honored to 307 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: have been able to attend eight Tuskege Yearman Incorporated national 308 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: conventions to meet a lot of the Tuskeg Yearman and 309 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: also to meet them at other places. At Maxwell Air 310 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: Force Base, where I worked for thirty seven years, they 311 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: would often have at Air Command at Staff College a 312 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: gathering of eagles and sometimes well often they would have 313 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: a Tuskege Yearman honored. So Tuskegyearman would come to the base. 314 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: Some of them would come to do research, and when 315 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: I was working on my book, The Tuskegeearman Chronology, I 316 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: was putting in a lot of information that I got 317 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: from them and from their records, and some of them 318 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: who I knew personally, some of them who have passed away, 319 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: for example, or Bill Holliman. Bill Holliman was a P 320 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: fifty one pilot in World War Two, served with the 321 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: Tuskeg Yearman, flew in Korea and Vietnam like Charles McGee, 322 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: and was one of my favorite Tuskegee airmen. Like Charles McGee, 323 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: Roscoe Brown was one of three tuske Gearman who flew 324 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: on the Berlin Mission March twenty fourth, nineteen forty five 325 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: and shot down a German jet. There were three Tuskey 326 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 1: gearman who shot down German jets that day, and Lee 327 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: Archer I knew two. Lee Archer shot down four enemy aircraft, 328 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: one on July eighteenth, nineteen forty four, and three of 329 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: them on October twelfth, nineteen forty four. He was almost 330 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: an ace. There were three Tuskey gearman who shot down 331 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: four enemy aircraft and almost became aces because you needed 332 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: five to be an ace. And there were four Tuscy 333 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: gearman who shot down three on one day. But I 334 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: don't want to leave out the people on the ground. 335 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: There were people like Jim Shephard, who was a crew 336 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: chief on the ground, helped arm the aircraft, helped maintain 337 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: the P fifty one aircraft of the ninety nine Fighter Squadron, 338 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 1: helped make sure it had the fuel tanks loaded and 339 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: made sure the aircraft were worthy of flight and came 340 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: back safely. So TWI back for a second. The Berlin 341 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: flight involved P fifty ones, Yes it did. There was 342 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: only one Fifteenth Air Force bombing mission to Berlin because 343 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: most of the missions against Berlin were by the eighth 344 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: Air Force in England. The fifteenth Air Force was stationed 345 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: in Italy and the three thirty second Fighter Group. The 346 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: Tuskegee Airman were based in Italy escorting bombers from Ramatelli, 347 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: their own airfield. On March twenty fourth, nineteen forty five, 348 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: the fifteenth Air Force launched its only mission to Berlin. 349 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: There were five fighter escort groups of the seven fighter 350 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: escort groups in the fifteenth Air Force that took part 351 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: in the Berlin mission, but the three thirty second Fighter 352 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: Group was one of the groups that took part in 353 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: the Berlin mission. If he saw the movie Redtails, and incidentally, 354 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: I was one of the technical advisors in that movie, 355 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: even though it wasn't totally historically accurate. But if you 356 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: saw that movie, it looks like the three thirty second 357 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: Fighter Group was the only fighter escort group to go 358 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: to Berlin that day, But that's not true. There were 359 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 1: five fighter groups on that mission. The Tuskegee Airmen were 360 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: made famous, in part by HBO's nineteen ninety five television 361 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: movie starring Lawrence Fishbourne and Cuba Gooding Junior, and by 362 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 1: the Charles Francis nineteen fifty five book Tuskegee Airmen, The 363 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: Men Who Changed the Nation. Hear more about their rise 364 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: to fame at New Center circle dot com. It's a 365 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: subscription service where I offer insights and commentary on the 366 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: issues that matter to me. Most joined today at New 367 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: center circle dot com coming up the Tuskegee Airman's legacy 368 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: and how they opened up opportunities for black Americans post 369 00:23:52,440 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: World War Two. When the war ended and they began 370 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 1: to demobilize, although clearly a number of them stayed in 371 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: the Air Force, do you have any sense of the 372 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: adjustments they had to go through or and here are 373 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: these are guys who've done a great job for the country, 374 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: have been very successful, and I've been doing something that 375 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: they're remarkably good at. Many of them became very successful. 376 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: I think the general feeling was that when they returned 377 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: to the United States, they were expecting society to have 378 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: changed and that they would be accepted and that they 379 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: would be racial integration. And that's not what happened. Not immediately, 380 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 1: they were disappointed that they were returning to a segregated environment, 381 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: especially those that went to the South. But many of 382 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: them became successful. For example, Roscoe Brown became a leading 383 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: educator in New York. And those that didn't continue in 384 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,479 Speaker 1: military service sometimes got involved in the civil rights movement 385 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: and took part in some of the movement to secure 386 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: integration not only in the military but in society as 387 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: a whole. Harry Truman issued Executive Worlder nine nine eighty 388 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: one in nineteen forty eight, which mandated the desegregation of 389 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: the military services. The Air Force was already moving in 390 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: that direction, was already training black and white pilots together. 391 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: After Tuskegee closed in nineteen forty six. The Air Force 392 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: became independent from the Army in nineteen forty seven, and 393 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 1: even before the main integration of the black flying units 394 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty nine, they were already training black and 395 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: white pilots together at Williams Field in Arizona. Part of 396 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: the legacy was that you could have very successful black units, 397 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: and you could have people, both ground crews and pilots, 398 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: who were fully competitive with anybody else in the service. 399 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: Many of the Tuskegee airmen were disappointed when they got back. 400 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: Some of them wanted to be civilian pilots for the airlines, 401 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: and they were not really able to do that. Many 402 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: of them expressed their disappointment at not being hired by 403 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: the civilian airlines, because a lot of the civilian airlines 404 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 1: had all these white transport pilots that they wanted to 405 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: hire over the tuskegyearman because the ones that served overseas 406 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: were fighter pilots and the ones that flew be twenty 407 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: five bombers in training in the four seventy seventh Bombardment 408 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: Group were flying twin engine planes. But the airlines were 409 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: looking for people with experience with more airline type planes 410 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 1: like the transports, and there were no tuskegyearman flying transports 411 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: in World War Two. So it was a period though, 412 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: where they had a hard time transferring their knowledge into 413 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: the private sector. Those that stayed in the military service, 414 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: especially after the integration of the Air Force, were able 415 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: to use their talents and skills more readily and rose 416 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: in the ranks. People like Daniel Chappy James, for example, 417 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 1: and Charles McGee and George Hardy. Those that stayed in 418 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: the service, I think were generally more successful in aviation 419 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: than those that wanted to go into the private sector 420 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: in aviation. When you look at this extraordinary prayer in 421 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: American history, what are the lessons you wish young people 422 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: could take out of the development of the Tuskegee Airman 423 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: and their experiences. I'd say the first lesson of the 424 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: Tuskegee Airman is given the opportunity, they proved that black 425 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: men could do whatever white men could do. They could 426 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: fly the same kinds of aircraft, they could be as 427 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: successful as the white pilots. And also the support personnel 428 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: on the ground that supported those pilots. I think that's 429 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: less than number one, and I think less number two 430 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: is partly their persistence and their demonstration that they could 431 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: succeed if they applied themselves. They had some opportunity, not 432 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: as much opportunity as the white pilots, and they helped 433 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:26,479 Speaker 1: push open the door for opportunity. For example, at Freeman Field, Indiana, 434 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: in April of nineteen forty five, there was a segregation 435 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 1: crisis where the four seventy seventh, the Bombardment Group was training. 436 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: There were white officers in black trainees, and Robert Selway 437 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: was the commander of the four seventy seventh. He tried 438 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: to enforce segregated facilities at Freeman Field, which aroused what 439 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: was called the Freeman Field Mutiny, and there were two 440 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: rounds of arrest some Muskegee Airman officers were arrested for 441 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: entering the white only officers club, and some of them 442 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: were arrested for refusing to sign a new base regulation 443 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: that specified segregated facilities. And incidents like that showed that 444 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: they pushed for greater opportunity and equality on their basis, 445 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: especially at Freeman Field. Noah Parish at Tuskege Army Airfield 446 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: already allowed the integration of the base facilities there. So 447 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: that's another lesson for young people that sometimes the pursuit 448 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: of justice needs to be achieved with some cost. Because 449 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: some of those officers were arrested. Well, you talk about 450 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: Freeman Field for example, was there a sense this is 451 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: before Trueman issues his executive order, right, so at that 452 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: point there's no pressure inside the system. Well, there was 453 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: really because the Army had regulations that were somewhat vague 454 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: and it said if you were assigned to a base, 455 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: you were able to use the officers club. There was 456 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: an Army regulation that said that, and it didn't say 457 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: anything about segregated officers clubs. In fact, that Tuskegee, when 458 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: they had a segregated dining facility, some of the black 459 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: officers at Tuskegee took that Army regulation with them and 460 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: went to the white side of the dining facility and 461 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: demanded service, and they got it, partly because they had 462 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: the regulation, and partly because Noel Parish was the commander 463 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: of the base and he'd allowed the desegregation of the 464 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: dining facility at Tuskegee Army Airfield. So there was within 465 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: the Army, within the War Department and the Army Air 466 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: Forces that base facilities should be integrated. The airmens speak 467 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: in glowing terms when they talk about Noel Parish. Some 468 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: would tear up because Noel Paris gave them the opportunity 469 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: to prove themselves in the aviation program. Noel Paris gave 470 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: them the respect that was not the norm at that time. 471 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: There was a lot of indignity faced by the Tuskegee airman, 472 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: especially those from the North who were not used to that. 473 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: They were in more integrated environments in the North, and 474 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: when they came south and trained at Tuskegee, there was 475 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: integration allowed by Noel Parish on the base, but outside 476 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: the base things were closed at Tuskegee to them in 477 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: the town. Do you think that that's part of why 478 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: as we went through the last seventy years, they remained 479 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: sort of symbolically important because they were proof that in fact, 480 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: African Americans could be part of a remarkable unit, they 481 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: could achieve great things, and therefore, for an awful lot 482 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: of African Americans who wanted America to work, they were 483 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: as symboled that it was possible. That's right, they were definitely, 484 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: I'd say of all the military groups in World War Two, 485 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: the Tuskegee AMA was probably the most successful. Eventually they 486 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: became the most famous. I think they deserve their fame. 487 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: They deserve to be remembered for the opportunities they opened 488 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: to people of their race and all people really. And 489 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: there were other things too that they achieved, shooting down 490 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: one hundred and twelve enemy aircraft and being the first 491 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: black flying group in combat, the first black flying group 492 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: to shoot down enemy aircraft, the first black flying group 493 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: to escort bombers, and the first black flying group to 494 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: fly the most advanced fighters in the inventory P fifty ones. 495 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: On the Allied side, one of the great challenges we 496 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: had is here we are fighting a racist regime in 497 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: Nazi Germany while having people get trained in a place 498 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: that still have segregation, and there had to have been 499 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: some sense of irony, if you will, not necessarily bitterness, 500 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: because I think they were having a pretty good time 501 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: flying and working with aircraft and getting paid a pretty 502 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: decent amount for the period. But there still had to 503 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: be the sense of how odd it was the name 504 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: of human equality. We were shooting down Germans over Germany, 505 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: but in fact we hadn't finished cleaning our situation up 506 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: here at home. That's very true, and I think a 507 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: lot of the Tuskegearman felt that way, especially when they 508 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: returned home and they saw that things hadn't really changed 509 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: that much. Even though the Army Air Forces in the 510 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: Army had allowed black pilots to be part of the service, 511 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: and that had never been done before that, there was 512 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: still a lot of discrimination. And as I said before, 513 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: Harry Truman's executive Warder nine one eight one didn't come 514 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: out until nineteen forty eight, so there was still not 515 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: integration in the American military until a few years after 516 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: World War Two. The Air Force had black flying units 517 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: at Lockbourne Air Force Base in Ohio, the three thirty 518 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: second Fighter Wing, three thirty second Fighter Group and its squadrons, 519 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: and they were inactivated nineteen forty nine and their personnel 520 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: were reassigned to formerly all white units. That was the 521 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: most significant step in the integration of the Air Force. 522 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: It took a long time for the American society, especially 523 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: in the South, to also be integrated. So at that 524 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: point you really had the sense, ironically that finally in 525 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: starting in forty nine, we were going to place you 526 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: by your rank, now your race, and people were actually 527 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: going to begin to move right. Yes, I think a 528 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: lot of the Tuskegee airman who served in the American 529 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: military had higher expectations about what the Army would allow 530 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: them to do, partly because of what they were able 531 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: to achieve during World War Two, and the progress continued 532 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: after World War Two. After tuske Ye Army Airfield closed 533 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: and stopped training black military pilots in nineteen forty six, 534 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: then black military pilots were being trained at formerly all 535 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: white bases, and the integration of the service, as I said, 536 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: most notably happened in nineteen forty nine, and during the 537 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,760 Speaker 1: Korean War, the Army experienced more integration and the Navy 538 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: started training black pilots as well. So it's all part 539 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,240 Speaker 1: of the story. The civil rights story didn't really start 540 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: with Rosa Parks in the nineteen fifties here in Montgomery, 541 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: but it started really long before that, and the Tuskegyearman 542 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: played a great role in that story. Well, it does 543 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: say something that both what happened was Rosa Parks, which ironically, 544 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: much like Jackie Robinson, involved being told to go to 545 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: the back of the bus, but also the notion that 546 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: it was in Alabama that the tuskege Amon got trained, 547 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: they became famous, and in that sense, Alabama ultimately, after 548 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: a great deal of struggle, became one of the places 549 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,919 Speaker 1: where we began to finally become an integrated society. That's right. 550 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: The Tuskegee story is celebrated at Tuskegee Airman National Historic Site, 551 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: which is at Moten Field where the primary flight training 552 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: took place during World War Two, and it's a site 553 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 1: I would recommend to anybody coming from other places to 554 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: visit Alabama, they might want to visit Tuskegee Airman National 555 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: Historic Site. Well, listen, thank you very very much for 556 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: doing this. It's very helpful. Well, I appreciate the opportunity 557 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,439 Speaker 1: to talk with you and to share what I've learned 558 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: about the Tuskegee Airman, especially from the years I worked 559 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: as a historian at the Air Force Historical Research Agency 560 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: at Maxwell Air Force Base. I'm Charles Edred McGee, Lair Force, 561 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: retired and originally from I was born in Cleveland, Ohio 562 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: in nineteen nineteen. Tuskeg German are black pilots, mechanics, and 563 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: support people who when our country declared war against Hitler, 564 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: came forward and dispelled the biases and generalizations because of 565 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: the color of our skin. We couldn't support our country 566 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: in a technical area. Our task was to keep the 567 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 1: air clear of German fighters that were destroying many of 568 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: our barbers. You know, we thought we had enough guns 569 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: on to B seventeens and B twenty four to protect them. 570 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: That wasn't so, and that's why the escort world began. 571 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: We also destroyed a lot of the Germany's warmaking potential 572 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: on the ground. Pittsburgh Courier came out and said, no, 573 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,280 Speaker 1: this is a double victory activity for black Americans fighting 574 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: against Hitler and Europe and also fighting against racism here 575 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: at home. One thing personally in Folktoko, how they faced that, 576 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: I said, well, I grew up learning that you know 577 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: you treat others like you want to be treated, so important, 578 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: and then realizing that the value lessons that sustained us 579 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: are just as important for the young people today and 580 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 1: what they faced for America's future and preserved the freedoms 581 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: we claim were all so much in jought. Don't let 582 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,839 Speaker 1: the circumstances be an excuse for not achieving we could 583 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: have been either they don't like me, they don't want 584 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: me to going off in the corner with their head bowed. 585 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: That's not the American way. You can read more about 586 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 1: the Tuskegee Airman on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 587 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 1: NEWTS World is produced by English three sixty and iHeartMedia. 588 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Debbie Myers and our producer is 589 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: Guernsey Slum. The artwork for the show was created by 590 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: Steve Penda. Please email me with your comments at newt 591 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,839 Speaker 1: at newtsworld dot com. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I 592 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us 593 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others 594 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. On the next episode 595 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: of Newtsworld, Mary Ball Washington was a resilient widow who 596 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 1: single handedly raised five children and ran a large farm 597 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: at a time when most women's duties who were relegated 598 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: to household matters. She raised her eldest son, George, to 599 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: become one of the world's greatest leaders and the first 600 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: President of the United States. In his new book, author 601 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:49,279 Speaker 1: Craig Shirley explores George Washington's family and upbringing and now 602 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: his mother shaped his life. I'm Newt Gangridge. This is Newtsworld.