WEBVTT - Computers on the Mind 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.200 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:15.520 Forward Thinking. Welcome everyone to Forward Thinking, the podcast where 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:18.759 we talk about the future. I'm Jonathan Strickland, I'm Lauren 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.239 Voge OBAM, and I'm Joe McCormick. Joe the Possessor of 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:26.400 the Acts of Destiny. Um, we we now have an 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.960 official Forward Thinking plastic toy axe that was discovered in 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:32.760 the House to Works office toy box. Yeah, so now 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:36.360 it's ours. I don't know what we'll do with it 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:39.159 or why it's forward thinking, but we may do an 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:42.960 episode on the future of axes and ax text technology. 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:47.400 That's good. That's good of of plastics. Yeah, plastic ac 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:51.440 is in particularly quite different future than that's true. Well, 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:53.479 that's not what we're talking about today though. Today we're 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:58.360 talking about brain computer interfaces. Uh what now, you looking 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:00.480 at me like what I want to talk about axes? No, 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.440 absolutely not. I have no idea what we talked about that. Okay. 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.960 Brain computer interfaces is what we're going to concentrate on today. 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:10.360 And uh, and really it's exactly what it sounds like. 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:12.920 It's an interface that allows you to interact with a 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.720 computer using just your brain power. That sounds like science fiction. 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:19.520 Well at one point it was just science fiction, but 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.720 now it's science fact and in fact there we've made 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:27.039 a lot of progress in this field. There. Essentially, the 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.319 way this works, you have to understand the way your 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.120 brain works. You know, you have neurons in your brain, 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:37.040 and the neurons communicate, They pass along messages and commands 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.759 to the various systems in your body using a combination 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.480 of electric signals and chemical processes. Right, and all these 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:48.520 neurons in your brain are connected by things axons and dendrites, 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:53.200 and they and they create complex patterns of electrical charges 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:56.240 that surge back and forth. And this is what manifests 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.680 as thought right and uh, and also as a command, 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.920 So like when you lift your arm, you know, or 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:07.920 as Buck Rubonds would say, throw a harpoon. Um. So yeah, 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:12.240 I mean the the neurons, because they are communicating through 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.639 partially through electricity, not solely through It means that if 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:18.240 we had found a way, if we could find a 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:23.360 way to detect electrical activity and to assign particular types 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:27.399 of electric electrical activity to particular tasks, we could interpret 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:30.880 that electrical activity and translate that into something that a 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:34.639 computer could understand like a command. Right. Yeah. Well, the 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:37.480 interesting point this goes all the way back to was 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.080 the first time that someone noticed that the brain makes 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:43.760 this electrical current, a British physician named Richard Cayton, I believe, 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.600 And uh yeah, so so this this has been this 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:49.800 is not a new idea, no, no, no, it's certainly 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:52.440 a fantastic one, right, Yeah, The whole idea of being 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:55.400 able to harness computer power is relatively new. But the 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.000 fact that we have we've learned about the electrical activity 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.639 in the brain, We've not about that for a while, right. 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:03.440 And so essentially, what what your brain is doing is 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:08.239 it's producing meaningful action based on electrical impulses, which is 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.320 actually the same thing a computer does, right, yeah, yeah, 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:15.760 electrical impulses manifest as meaningful action. Yeah. In that case, 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.680 the electrical impulses tend to be on very tiny microprocessors 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:24.840 and going through extremely tiny channels on these microprocesses we're 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:28.280 talking about on the nano scale. Uh. And so if 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:32.880 we were able to to detect and interpret these these 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.320 electrical patterns that go on in our brains in a 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.440 meaningful way, we could then create an interface with a 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:43.360 computer and pass commands through thought and in fact, yeah, 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.320 pretty crazy, but it's awesome. But how do we read that? 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:48.840 I mean, how do how do you figure out what's 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.440 going on inside someone's skull? Well, it's actually simpler than 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.920 you might think. It's it's it's difficult, and it's it's simpler. 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.360 At the same time, it's um So your brain is 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:02.760 producing electrical impulses and in a way, it's not all 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:06.720 that different than the data you'd create by punching keys 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.560 on a keyboard or moving around the mouse. When your 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:13.720 brain thinks a thought, something physical happens. If you have 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:18.120 a way of detecting what that physical thing is that happens, 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.120 then you have a way of creating input. All you 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:25.080 have to have is some kind of sensor or machine 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.560 or way of gathering the input from the brain. That's 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:32.480 the part that's hard. Now, that's one part that's hard 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:39.159 is actually exactly teaching teaching the computer or the or 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:43.960 the person or the robotic limb. You have to teach 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:49.960 how too, how to interpret a thought into an action, 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:52.560 and that there's a part of a challenge of that 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.680 is that two people could go into the same lab 0:04:56.160 --> 0:05:00.000 to have their their thoughts analyzed Essentially, you can get 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.400 an m R I machine, for example, and look at 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.320 the brain activity and and you tell the person inside 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:07.719 the machine, all right, I need you to think about 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.600 lifting your left arm. And then you watch the parts 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:12.880 of the brain that light up, and you say, all right, well, 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:14.800 those are the parts of the brain that I want 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:18.640 to concentrate on, because I'm designing the system so that, uh, 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:21.320 the person will be able to control a robotic arm 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:23.160 that would be in the place of their left arm. 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.200 So you think, but then you get a second person 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:28.520 in there and they think about it, and it's gonna 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.119 be slightly different places, so it's not like one size 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:33.960 fits all. Well, let's make this concrete. Let's talk about 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.880 what we're actually talking about doing in terms of the technology. Okay, um, 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:39.840 so what are some of the ways that people think 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:44.080 they can actually detect electrical impulses in the brain and 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:46.960 and do something useful with them. Well, the the least 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:51.640 invasive and the least expensive, and the uh probably the 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.000 easiest would be the e G. Right. Well, first of all, 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:55.800 you already mentioned m R I, and m R I 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.200 can do this, but it can't do it on the 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:03.080 go right. No, right machines are very large and not magnets, 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.080 and then m r I is really better used to 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.359 again determine the best places to put an electrode to 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:12.200 detect these electrical impulses. So you kind of use it 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:14.480 in the testing phase, not in the execution phase. Right, 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:18.479 The m R I U seems very useful for UM 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.160 figuring out what you need to do, but not for 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.800 real time control UM. But so yeah, you mentioned the 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:28.280 e g. The electro and cephalogram um and this this 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.960 goes back by the way, a German neurology names Hans 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:36.520 Burger found the way to read current by electronic placement, honestly, 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.720 so they put electrodes on the scalp itself, which detect 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.800 any electrical activity. Wait a minute, though, you'd have to 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.880 think that if you're just putting electrodes all over your head, 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:49.960 that's got to be a really high noise to signal ratio. 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:53.000 That yeah, because your skull actually does block some of 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.520 the electrical signals and also distorts some of them, which 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.360 means that if you want to talk in terms of resolution, 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.880 you would have low resolution signals, meaning that uh that 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:05.800 you would get you'd be able to detect activity, but 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.400 you would your accuracy would be fairly low. So be 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:12.480 like taking directions from somebody who's on a cell phone 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:17.560 inside a bomb shelter underwater. Yeah, yes, it's exactly like that. 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.200 Or as I was going to say, maybe like if 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:22.880 you were to put the electrodes on your scalp and 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:26.200 the the let's say that the hardware and software that 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.240 you're working with allows you to move a cursor by 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.240 concentrating on it on a screen. If you're wearing the 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:35.920 electrodes on your scalp, then it may not be that accurate, 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.160 and it may require you to to spend a lot 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:43.200 more time concentrating and trying to move that cursor than 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:48.440 it would if you were to have a more invasive procedure. Right. 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.800 So here we come to the other and perhaps most 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:57.320 promising technology, right is the the surgically implanted electrode. Right. 0:07:57.360 --> 0:07:59.800 So this in this case, you have you have gone 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:03.600 and you've actually removed part of the skull and gone 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.160 into the brain. Or you may just put the electrode 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:08.239 on the surface of the brain, but there are also 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:11.920 procedures where in order to get to specific parts of 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:16.400 the brain im you actually implant it directly into the brain. 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:21.880 This also has some problems. Obviously, one being invasive surgery. 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:24.760 There's always worst there and and it's you know, that's 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:29.360 a big decision. Uh. The second problem is, or potential problem, 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.439 is that it can cause over time, scar tissue can 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.800 form over the electrode, which will create that sort of 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:39.360 insulating problem that the e G has where you're going 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:43.520 to get signals blocked or distorted because of the scar tissue. Uh. 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:47.720 And then also until recently anyway, it also meant that 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:51.800 you were you had to be tethered to or Yeah, 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.920 you would have essentially a connection point that would extend 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.040 out from your skull and you would have to connect 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.439 a wire to that, and that wire would be connected 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:03.800 on the other end to whatever device it was that 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:05.720 you were controlling, whether it was a computer or a 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.280 robotic arm or whatever. Though this problem has recently been 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.040 somewhat conquered. Um, we can talk about that in a minute. 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:17.040 So okay, so we're talking about neural implants. An electrode 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:19.960 a little piece of metal. It's a chip that goes 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:24.000 in your brain and it takes those electrical impulses and 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.440 it sends them to a computer. But we have to 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.360 think that uh, it can't be that easy, right, It 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:34.360 can't just send the electrical impulse to the computer. There 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:39.480 has to be really advanced software r right, it understands 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:43.800 how to deal with these impulses, or based on an 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:48.760 extremely uh complicated set of probabilities, can figure out that 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.400 that little blippy block probably means this thing and as 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.520 opposed to that little blippity blob, which generally speaking, the 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:56.800 way that I understand that this works is that it 0:09:56.840 --> 0:10:01.760 requires a long session or multiple sessions with scientists and 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:06.160 doctors to go through the process of saying, all right, uh, 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:10.440 we want let's say, let's say given, we'll give an 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:14.560 EXAMPLETS say it's a robotic arm and uh and they say, well, 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:18.480 we want you to uh to lift your left arm. 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:20.920 And let's say it's a person who is fully capable 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:23.120 of doing this, And so the person lifts their left 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.560 arm and they interpret those signals and they say, all right, 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:27.760 these are the signals we want. These are the signals 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.640 that say lift the left arm for the robotic arm. 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.600 And you repeat that test many, many, many, many many 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:37.640 times to get as accurate a picture as possible of 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:40.560 the neural activity that's going on when you lift your 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:44.880 left arm. And then you eventually say this represents the 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:48.559 input for the robotic arm to raise up. So then 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:50.920 the next time you lift your left arm and you're 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.880 hooked up to this system, the robot arm also lifts 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.120 it arm it's arm, and you have to do the 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.880 same thing for all the different commands, so things like 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.439 gripping or twisting your wrist unless you've actually designed the 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:04.880 robotic arm to have some of these features automatically. I 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.840 saw one video where the robotic arm would automatically grip 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.040 something if it if the palm came into contact with 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.360 an object, so that you didn't have to go that 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:18.079 extra step to think, make the fingers close at a 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.360 certain point. Yeah, the sensor is easier to produce than 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:23.160 the brain transfer. That makes it hard to do like 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.319 an open hand slap though, Yeah, you just griped the 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:31.400 person to challengee instead pinching their cheek. Yeah yeah, so 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:36.839 so so don't future problems duel of the future. I 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.240 would say that if my cheek were pinched by robotic arm, 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.559 I would consider myself chagrined. Yeah, but anyway, the the 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:44.760 would defend your honor and you'd have to I would 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.720 demand satisfaction. Yes, Okay, I'd have to go and grab 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.880 our mystical acts. UM, so they bringing it back. So 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:56.160 the getting back to this, if you're talking about someone, obviously, 0:11:56.480 --> 0:12:00.400 one of the big uh potential you is for this 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:04.360 technology is to help people who are severely disabled, who 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:10.679 are perhaps paralyzed or quadriplegic and cannot cannot do a 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:14.360 lot of things for themselves. And so for them it's 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.280 a learning experience because they may not know, they may 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.520 lack the capability of doing whatever physical action they need 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.040 to do to send the command, So it ends up 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:26.320 being more of a learning process both for the person 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.480 and for the machine. Yeah, and luckily, our brands are 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:32.360 incredibly plastic, and UM are are very good at still 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:36.200 continuing into adulthood developing new neural paths in order to 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:39.120 figure out these kinds of processes. Right write plastic as 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.920 in changeable, not actually right, correct that they are not 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:47.199 made of vinyl. So uh yeah. So you talked about 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:51.439 UM helping people who have severe body disabilities, and I've 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:53.640 actually read about a few of these cases and they're 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.760 kind of amazing stories there. UM. In the end of 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.920 two thousand twelve, there was a woman who is quadruple 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:04.199 Egypt and UM. From what I've read, it looks like 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:09.800 UM neurobiologists at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center they 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.080 enabled her to through a neural implant as so an 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.320 electrode in her brain control a robotic arm with which 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.720 she could feed herself. And all it took her was 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.199 a couple of days of practice before she could move 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.800 this robotic arm with her brain to feed herself a 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:30.839 piece of chocolate. So yeah, the the the good thing 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.320 is that people are very are very good at adapting 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.920 to this, and that we are getting better and better 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.839 at building the hardware and software that can act as 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.280 the other half of this system. Right. And I saw 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:47.360 an interesting, uh exoskeleton thing which I thought was pretty cool. 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:51.000 It actually used an e G cap, so uh, you know, 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.360 it didn't it was noninvasive, you know. The person This 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.000 was for people who who could not walk for themselves. 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:01.120 They would get into this exoskeleton and the cap would 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:02.560 go on top of their heads. It was called a 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:09.320 mind walker, and then they would by by concentrating. I 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.960 don't I don't you know, I hope not from one 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:15.960 of those lost years. It's not sleepwalkers. I'll tell you 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:20.040 that's terrible, terrible movie. Don't tell my dad it's like 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:25.200 his favorite movie. Wow. Okay, I have no response to that. 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.320 The uh. But at any rate, So there are other 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:32.400 applications as well. But but the main focus has really 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:36.200 been on giving people who otherwise would have difficulty interacting 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:40.960 with their environments more ability to do so through these interfaces. Uh. 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:44.200 And you were alluding earlier, Joe, to the idea of 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:48.320 the wireless approach, because one of the big drawbacks to 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:50.480 this was the fact that you would be tethered to 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:54.560 a machine, and so you had even more limited mobility 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:59.360 because of that. But um, yeah, there looks like, um, 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:03.320 there were resear cheers at Brown University who they came 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.600 up with a you just close it off. It's a 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:11.680 it's a wireless neural implant. So it's it's doing the 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.320 same job that these other ones we've talked about, where 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.600 um that you know, it's reading the electrical impulses in 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:19.640 the brain and it's sending a signal, except this one 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.400 is sending it wirelessly. It's got a wireless transmitter, lithium 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:27.640 ion batteries, rechargeable. It's its own little unit and it 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:32.560 transmits wirelessly to the computer that controls UM that controls 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:36.160 the the operate the device right right, whether it's a 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.440 computer or whether it's a robotic arm. And yeah, it's 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.560 uh it can I think according to what I was reading, 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.760 it sounds like right now it has very limited operating 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:47.800 range about a meter away. So you're still that's I mean, 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.080 that's still way better than having a court. Yeah, definitely, 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:56.920 And and uh, right now, no humans have had this 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:01.480 implant uh implanted in their heads. They don't know. It's 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.800 only been uh used on test animals monkeys and pigs 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:09.480 so far, so no humans have had this procedure done. 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:12.320 And uh, I don't know when that might happen, if 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:16.160 when that might change, but it it's an interesting advance 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:20.080 in the field. So uh, speaking of monkeys, I mean, 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.880 there have been some really amazing studies done with monkeys 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.440 and these neural implants, and uh, when I was reading 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:31.600 about it, showed that, uh, with some software tweaks, UM 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:36.680 engineers had gotten it to where monkeys could and and 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:39.080 keep in mind, these are monkeys, you know, they're not 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:45.000 people who can understand complex instructions given by researchers and 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.600 can really respond to training like this. The monkeys figured 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:51.880 out how to move a computer cursor into a target 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.120 zone with I can't remember exactly the percentage now, it 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.080 was a significant percentage of what they could do with 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:00.360 their arms, you know, just moving it by hand. Well, 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.200 there's there's also idoya. Did you hear about idea? Oh yeah, 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:08.000 the runner. Yeah yeah, So we're talking about a twelve 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:12.200 pound in monkey that, through thought alone, caused a two 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.199 hundred pound, five foot tall humanoid robot to walk on 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:19.400 a treadmill. That's awesome. And the monkey was in North Carolina. 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:24.200 The robot was in Japan. Wow. So so cyborg monkey 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:29.879 armies storming the walls of our cities. Excellent, remotely controlled, 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:34.119 remotely controlled by their by their true monkey overlords in 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:38.479 the you know, far away so power chambers. In the future, 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:43.880 there will be monkeys. Yeah. Well, I mean so we've 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:47.760 been talking about how these in the near future, neural 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:52.520 implants and other brand computer interfaces UM could be very 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:56.760 helpful to people who suffer from, say, quadriplegia, or any 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:01.080 condition that that's debilitating physically. You could create a robotic 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:03.120 arm or you could you know, mess with the computer 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.320 without being able to move your arms to move a mouse, 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:07.520 right you could communicate in ways that you might not 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:11.359 have been able to before. What happens when these things 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.399 get good enough that, as we've talked about before, you 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.480 might want them even if you don't need them. Yeah, 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.040 it'll be interesting to see. I mean, I would imagine 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:24.239 that unless unless the state of the art is so 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:29.040 amazing for the invasive forms, I can't imagine those ever 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:33.520 really taking off, at least in the foreseeable future. Depends 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:35.840 on what they can do. It would take. I'm to 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:37.159 talk a lot about it. I mean, you know, you 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.040 hear all the racket about what is it a homo cyberneticus, 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:45.240 and uh, yeah, I'm thinking, oh, you're talking about like 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:49.240 a species. Yeah, homo space cyber cyberneticus. Yeah, that kind 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:52.600 of thing. So I think I think that we're at 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:56.159 least fifty years away from that personally, I mean, the 0:18:57.520 --> 0:18:59.560 it's I think that's pretty safe. It's good number. It's 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:04.960 a good numb at least from but but I mean, honestly, like, 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.160 I can't to me, it's hard for now. I say that. 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:09.920 But then as a kid, I never would have imagined 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.240 that I could carry something that would have access to 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.320 pretty much the sum total of all human knowledge in 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:17.680 my pocket. I didn't think that was gonna happen either, 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.920 and it totally did, So I could be wrong about this. 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:23.560 I think it's more likely that we will see and 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.640 we already have seen things that are that are essentially 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:31.679 using the e G method to to act as some 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:35.800 sort of control device or um. You know, a toy 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:38.600 like I've seen the toys that you wear. It has 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:42.040 a little helmet that you wear, and through concentration, you're 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:45.040 supposed to be able to control the uh, the path 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.000 of an object on a board. There's there's one I 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:50.440 saw at CS a few years ago, and the way 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:54.240 it worked was it had a a little a little 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:56.680 air vent that blew air straight up and you put 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:59.199 a ping pong ball and it would suspend in the 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:03.080 airflow right and that by concentrating, you could either increase 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:05.919 the airflow and make the ping pong fly higher or 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:10.280 decrease and make it fly lower, and a rotating obstacle 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:12.160 course would go around and you would have to try 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:14.160 and maneuver the ping pong ball so it could fit 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:18.679 through hoops or pathways or whatever. So um, you're introducing 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:24.440 the possibility of telepathic gaming, telekinetic game. That's the idea. 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:29.040 I don't know how well these things really were well 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.119 right now right now? Yeah, yeah, but I'm saying that 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:34.960 we already are seeing this sort of stuff. Yeah, and 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:38.040 they're still doing research about more, um, you know, noninvasive 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:40.320 ways to figure this kind of thing out and speech 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.560 recognition technology. NASA way back in two four actually was 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:46.280 was doing a program that they were attaching sensors under 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:48.679 the chin into the throat because they found out that 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:52.679 when you just think about talking your your muscles still 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.640 have some kind of electrical activity that can be picked up. 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.000 And so, you know, stuff like that I think holds 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:01.600 some amount of promise. So could what you're saying that 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:05.160 by thinking a word, sensors on the muscles in your 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:09.200 throat could could follow commands even without your speaking. Yeah. Well, 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:12.320 and on top of that, there are other alternatives that 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:16.000 that might uh take some of the load off of 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:20.320 the brain computer interface UM train, I guess because you 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:23.479 could you could look at things like eye tracking software, uh, 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:25.439 and a lot of eye tracking software out there is 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:28.560 getting pretty sophisticated to the point where, um, if you 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:32.440 are capable of moving your eyes, not everyone is. There's 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:35.280 some people that you know locked in syndrome who are 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:38.960 incapable of really making any sort of motion. Um, But 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:41.600 if you're able to move your eyes, then you're able 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.560 to control elements on a computer screen. And I've seen 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:48.240 some pretty cool implementations of that, and it all it's 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:51.400 really just using cameras to track your eye movements and 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:54.520 and plot where you are looking on a screen, and 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:58.280 then interpreting the a as a command. So there are 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:01.800 other interfaces out there that we're seeing big advances in 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:06.800 that could either compliment or in some cases, depending upon 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:10.919 the use case scenario replace brain computer interfaces. All depends 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:13.560 on what it's being used for, and you know what 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:15.720 you want the outcome to be. Obviously, it wouldn't work 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:20.760 for every implementation. So can you imagine any situation in 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:25.080 which brain computer interface would be really useful to a 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:28.960 person who has otherwise full control of their body? Spies? 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:34.200 Spies immediately, spies, are you kidding me? A spy? Because 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.240 you if you are able to interact with a computer 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:40.720 system without any overt sign that you are doing so, 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:42.679 I would say that it would be very useful for 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:45.040 a spy. So if you want to like start start 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:48.880 your tape recorder, without touching it, or say, or you're 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.840 sending a message saying all right, I'm about to I'm 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:55.160 about to be eradicated, so you might want to burn 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:58.399 my apartment, that kind of thing. I mean, I watched 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:01.360 a lot of born identity, you know, even in our 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:03.520 own industry. You know, if, if, if our producer Noel 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:05.879 could send us a text message just by thinking about it, 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:07.920 without having to make the noise of typing on keys 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:10.280 or you know, wave his arms wildly or however else 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:13.040 he gets messages across to us, it would be filthy. 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:17.800 Maybe a filthy message. Noel's just smirking at me right 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:25.320