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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 3: My name is Matt, my name is Noel.

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Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We're joined with our guest super

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Speaker 1: producer Max Max, the mesmerist Williams. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know, Fellow conspiracy realists. Is a

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Speaker 1: bit of a trick question. Have you ever hypnotized someone?

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Speaker 1: Or have you yourself been hypnotized? What do you think

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Speaker 1: about the idea of hypnosis in general? We didn't really

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Speaker 1: talk about this one too much before we went on

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Speaker 1: air with it, so I had to ask, guys, I

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Speaker 1: feel like I see it in film and fiction all

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Speaker 1: the time, but I I've never actually seen the kitchy

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Speaker 1: trope of a stage hypnotist for entertainment. Have you, guys

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Speaker 1: ever seen that?

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Speaker 2: Yes, College did some college touring back in the day,

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Speaker 2: and one of the one of the big acts that

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Speaker 2: gets on college tours along with comedians musicians, is a

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Speaker 2: hypnotist who will do a stage show. It's like an

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Speaker 2: icebreaker basically for like orientation kind of stuff or early

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Speaker 2: get togethers with like a new class coming in.

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Speaker 1: Right right on. What was the experience like, as you can.

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Speaker 2: Remember, people raise their hands, people go on stage, a

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Speaker 2: hypnotist tells everybody what to do basically, and everybody for

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Speaker 2: the most part kind of does it and plays along.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we're going to get into a lot

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Speaker 2: of the details here. From my perspective, it was people

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Speaker 2: having an excuse to be a little more open and

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Speaker 2: do things that they'd be nervous and anxious about doing

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Speaker 2: if they didn't have a reason to do it.

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Speaker 1: I see, because then there's a bit of a gosh,

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Speaker 1: a bit of a scrimmage line between one's own agency.

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Speaker 1: Right yeah, I wouldn't cluck like a chicken, for example.

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Speaker 2: Well, even just like to be in a public place

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Speaker 2: in front of a bunch of other people, that makes

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Speaker 2: some people nervous to one level. Right now, imagine like

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Speaker 2: dancing and putting yourself out there on that stage. It's

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Speaker 2: kind of like showing yourself off a little bit. There's

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Speaker 2: another level of anxiety associated with that stuff. So I

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Speaker 2: think this just strips that away at least to some extent.

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Speaker 3: But you have to imagine that no one with a

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Speaker 3: crippling anxiety for being up on stage or being called

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Speaker 3: out in public would ever raise their hand in a

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Speaker 3: million years.

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Speaker 2: Good point.

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Speaker 1: So selection it's a big thing that our pal mentalist

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Speaker 1: Darren Brown talks about at length when when you hear

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Speaker 1: him speak about parts of his method. And it's weird

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Speaker 1: because we're also going to find out why hypnosis has

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Speaker 1: such a bad reputation. There two or three really big reasons,

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Speaker 1: and as a result, even now in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: the public often derides this as pseudoscience or quirky quackery,

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Speaker 1: but it turns out there's still Weirdly enough, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of science supporting this bizarre phenomenon and people still

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Speaker 1: don't fully understand it. Hypnosis, you could say, is itself

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Speaker 1: a bit of a conspiracy with a lot of fact

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Speaker 1: and a lot of fiction around the whole concept. And disclaimer, folks,

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Speaker 1: we might play around with examples of hypnotism or trance

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Speaker 1: states in tonight's episode, so seriously, if you are vulnerable

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Speaker 1: to experiencing trance states, please please make sure you're in

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Speaker 1: a safe environment, not driving operating heavy machinery, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Here are the facts. Way to prime the pump.

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Speaker 2: There, Man, You're not going to hypnotize you. You cannot

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Speaker 2: get hypnotized.

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Speaker 1: You are so unsuggestible right now, bro Us.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna look, we'll get there. But I am coming

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Speaker 2: into this episode fully feeling like hypnosis is complete bs.

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Speaker 2: And it's only because I watched that Penn and Teller

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Speaker 2: BS episode from season two, like right before we're recording,

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Speaker 2: and so I feel like this whole thing is kakamamine

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Speaker 2: bum bumps.

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Speaker 3: And yet it is used in some forms of therapy. Still,

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Speaker 3: I know this day and sort of there's some stock

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Speaker 3: put into it. Sorry, let's get those facts out, guys.

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Speaker 1: Yes, here are the facts. Let's start with a brief

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Speaker 1: history of hypnosis without making anyone sleepy. The term itself

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Speaker 1: is pretty recent. It was coined back in the eighteen

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Speaker 1: hundreds and popularized by a guy named James Braid that

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Speaker 1: you'll never hear about again in the rest of this episode.

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Speaker 1: The actual thing, the experience of this state, it dates

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Speaker 1: back into antiquity. Some experts who we'll get to later

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Speaker 1: this evening have referred to it as the oldest Western

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Speaker 1: form of psychotherapy. Trances, as we've discussed in the past,

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Speaker 1: have been considered part of magic religion, soothsaying. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if we look at the scientific history of hypnosis, we

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Speaker 1: also see why those scientific origins caused it so much

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Speaker 1: trouble down the road, we got to talk about our

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Speaker 1: main man friends, friends, not Ferdinand Sadly Mesmer.

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Speaker 3: This is cool to me. I mentioned this maybe recently

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Speaker 3: when we were sort of hinting that this episode was coming.

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Speaker 3: I recently watched a Japanese film from the nineties called

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Speaker 3: Cure by Cursawa, but not that Curasawa and hypnosis and

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Speaker 3: hypnotism is a huge plot point, and I'm not gonna

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Speaker 3: give anything away, but Franz Mesmer ends up being this

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Speaker 3: sort of specter hovering over the whole movie and the

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Speaker 3: study of his work, and was he onto something? One

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Speaker 3: of those kind of deals, right, Was he totally full

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Speaker 3: of it? Was he an absolute quack? Or did he

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Speaker 3: really have the truth? It was one of those types

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Speaker 3: of movies, and I think everyone would really dig It's

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Speaker 3: a little slow, a little odd, but very cool, very

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Speaker 3: cool movie.

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Speaker 1: I like that we're like Curasawa, but not that when

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Speaker 1: the same way we had to say friends, but not Franz.

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Speaker 3: That's true, that's true. Well, yeah, so I didn't know

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Speaker 3: much about Mesmer before I saw this film, and some

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Speaker 3: of this stuff is new to me as well. Well.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask just quickly before we get into this,

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Speaker 2: did you guys find in your research that a lot

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Speaker 2: of the early hypnosis stuff went back to and refers

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Speaker 2: to patients as we're talking about here with Mesmer, that

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Speaker 2: were experiencing things that were quote hysteria or you know,

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Speaker 2: someone who was maybe going through some kind of mental

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Speaker 2: state that was not understood at all, but there were

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Speaker 2: like attempts to make almost make contact with someone who

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Speaker 2: was operating on a different level.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, and I'm glad you pointed that out, because

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Speaker 1: I would say a big differentiation between hypnosis and its

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Speaker 1: precursors versus something like faith healing is that faith healing

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Speaker 1: would purport often to leave a physical condition, whereas a

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Speaker 1: lot of Mesmerism and things that were hypnosis by other names,

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Speaker 1: they sought to elite alleviate what they would call maybe

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Speaker 1: demons of the mind or some sort of spiritual cognitive blockage.

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Speaker 1: And you know, as we always have to say when

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Speaker 1: we point out hysteria in general. Maybe the problem was

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Speaker 1: that women lived in a really crappy society toward women,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, that's oh god, the etymology

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Speaker 1: of hysteria and hysterics alone is pretty problematic.

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Speaker 3: The wandering womb. Well, but they don't even get me started.

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Speaker 2: No really, but there were even people who were like

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Speaker 2: having some form of seizures, right that had It didn't

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Speaker 2: have anything to do with that stuff necessarily, right, It

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Speaker 2: has more to do with just again a malady that

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Speaker 2: isn't misunderstood or not understood at all, but then attempting

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Speaker 2: to use things like tuning forks and like all of

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Speaker 2: these just so many different interesting ways to try and

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Speaker 2: get someone in this trans It's like state.

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Speaker 3: Yep, could be visual, could be auditory, could be pulses

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Speaker 3: or like vibrations, like anything that's sort of a repetitive

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Speaker 3: pattern that the mind can lock into and get sort

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Speaker 3: of tricked into a fugue state kind of right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's apt. I mean you can even see

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Speaker 1: it today on social media, the concept of a sound bath.

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Speaker 1: That's that's so.

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Speaker 3: Social media is hypnotism of it. Other find yeah, with

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Speaker 3: the patterns like yeah, you look up and it's been

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Speaker 3: three hours. You know, you know it's great.

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Speaker 1: Truly, casinos are also built gender that hypnotic state, a

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Speaker 1: flow state you could call it, which it is, but

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Speaker 1: it's also a flow state. That's the flowing helping your

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Speaker 1: bank account too.

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Speaker 2: And well, I want to talk about it more later,

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Speaker 2: but because I want to get through this stuff, because

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Speaker 2: it's really important to set this up. But just pop

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Speaker 2: music and in the vibrations that comes through your speakers,

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Speaker 2: and then when you combine it with the words, it

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Speaker 2: gets into like we've talked about some of that in

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Speaker 2: the past, but like.

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Speaker 3: Oh Max Martin and the Swedish hit making machines, they're

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Speaker 3: using a formula to keep you exactly as invested as

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Speaker 3: they want you to be at the exact moment and

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Speaker 3: then share you over and make that three minutes feel

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Speaker 3: like it's an eternity in a good way.

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Speaker 2: Sup. We're indie music, but you can again, you could

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Speaker 2: be an indie musician and make that most him not stuff. Ever,

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Speaker 2: it just maybe then becomes a crazy pop phenomenon like

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Speaker 2: some of the artists we've seen over the past couple

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Speaker 2: of years that start on a YouTube and then all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden they're on the Grammys and you're like, whoa.

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Speaker 1: What shout out ye but there yeah, And I love

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Speaker 1: that you're saying that because it is technology and there

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Speaker 1: is a democratization of it. You know, anyone can learn

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Speaker 1: that math and you can apply that stuff. Mesmer Franz

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Speaker 1: Mesmer is not worried about being a pop star, but

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Speaker 1: he is worried about being a reality star, maybe more

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Speaker 1: so than he's worried about being a physician. This guy

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Speaker 1: was diplomatically put eccentric, and like a lot of other showmen,

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Speaker 1: he stood on the shoulders of giants. He got a

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Speaker 1: lot of his basic ideas from two people. One was

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Speaker 1: a British physician named Richard Meade. And Richard's whole thing

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Speaker 1: is that there are gravitational interactions of the planets. Then

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Speaker 1: as now, people didn't fully understand gravity. And he said,

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Speaker 1: the effect this kind of invisible substance or fluid. It's

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Speaker 1: in all their bodies. Baby, you just got to feel

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Speaker 1: the vibration and I can manipulate this according to the

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Speaker 1: laws of what I call animal magnetism.

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Speaker 3: Ooh yeah. Animal magnetism was the big thing, and care

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Speaker 3: that's the most important central part of Mesmer's philosophy. You

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Speaker 3: guys gotta watch Karen tell me what you think I'm fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, actually sure, but you get that that is another

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Speaker 2: thing that has continued down the timeline into modern day. Right,

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Speaker 2: It's just different terms, not the idea that there's some

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Speaker 2: invisible fluid that's being affected by things. But if you

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Speaker 2: think about how important astrology is to so many people,

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Speaker 2: like in their personal lives right now, and how popular

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Speaker 2: that is on social media, Like it's something within us

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Speaker 2: that is affected by these heavenly other bodies, right.

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Speaker 1: That reminds me. I think maybe we talked about this

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Speaker 1: on air Fusebacker. Maybe was I had this mission a

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Speaker 1: long time ago where I was like, maybe there is.

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Speaker 1: Let me not be a jerk, let me not be dismissive.

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Speaker 1: Let me see if in my own mind I can

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Speaker 1: figure out some kind of theory for astronomy, right, so

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Speaker 1: our astrology Excuse me how this would work? And the

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Speaker 1: closest I got was a we don't really understand gravity

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Speaker 1: as a civilization, right, as a scientific body of thought.

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Speaker 1: Be we know that it affects things, and see, we

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Speaker 1: don't know everything about the development of the human mind

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Speaker 1: in gestation so, with those three things being true, could

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Speaker 1: we argue that the passage of heavenly bodies in some

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Speaker 1: infinitesimal way affects brain chemistry. And if so, does that

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Speaker 1: mean that you know, a taurus is likely to taurus

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Speaker 1: or in our case, Leo's are likely to roar. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I never got past that part.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was also gonna add, you know, to me,

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Speaker 3: the concept of animal magnetism is like what a cult

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Speaker 3: leader has, like it describes a quality in somebody, like

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Speaker 3: you got that raw animal magnetism. That means that you

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Speaker 3: can like influence people, you can hold sway over people

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Speaker 3: with your just sex, panther energy.

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Speaker 1: I got that dog in me join my cult.

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Speaker 2: Well, but it's not just it's it is influence and

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Speaker 2: that's a major part of it.

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Speaker 3: Right, I'm saying that's what I associated with. This is

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Speaker 3: all other nuances, and I think it's maybe been co

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Speaker 3: opted a little bit, but like this is fabulous.

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Speaker 2: Please, But this thing of animal magnetism, for me, one

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Speaker 2: of the most important parts is that the belief was

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Speaker 2: this stuff this chi, right, you can think about it

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Speaker 2: like chi, this energy, this whatever this for is that's

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Speaker 2: inside you can be manipulated by your mind, and basically

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Speaker 2: someone else can take your mind to a place where

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Speaker 2: your body can do things like heal itself, right like Wolverine. Yes,

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Speaker 2: in a potentially very dangerous manner. Right, the belief could

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Speaker 2: be potentially dangerous.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, because we enter into oh gosh, we're all

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Speaker 1: excited to get to this. We enter into a world

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Speaker 1: where the concept of truth experienced truth changes and it

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Speaker 1: is a very real thing. And that's why we call

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Speaker 1: it a conspiracy. At the top, I want to shout

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Speaker 1: out the second guy who really informed a lot of

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Speaker 1: Mesmer's work toward what he called in about of Humility Mesmerism.

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Speaker 1: He had a teacher in Vienna, a Jesuit whose name

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Speaker 1: was I kid you not father Hell, and father Maximilian

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Speaker 1: Hell spelled the way it sounds. His whole deal was,

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Speaker 1: I mean, on being a Jesuit to being a teacher.

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Speaker 1: His third whole deal was this idea that he could

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Speaker 1: heal patients of all sorts of stuff with the use

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Speaker 1: of magnetized metal platest man magnets.

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Speaker 3: Right, how unclear?

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Speaker 2: How are these eighteen hundreds ideas just like popping back

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Speaker 2: up like this is the big thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, asach what and this guy. Okay, so Mesmer has

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Speaker 1: these two guys bumping around his head. They're huge influences

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Speaker 1: on him. And so he takes it a little step

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Speaker 1: further and he says, okay, animal magnetism, love it, magnets,

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Speaker 1: I'm in invisible fluid chi if you will, you know

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Speaker 1: it has to your point. Man, it has a thousand

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Speaker 1: names throughout history. He says, Okay, a lot of diseases,

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Speaker 1: a lot of infections of the mind are just all

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Speaker 1: coming down to obstacles in the flow of this cosmic force.

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Speaker 1: So all I have to do to fix it is

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Speaker 1: induce what he called prices, trance states that culminate in

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Speaker 1: an explosion of delirium or even physical convulsions revelatory moments.

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Speaker 2: Which makes you think about the old hysteria treatments with

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Speaker 2: with like hand created vibrating machines.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like that woman in the symphony that had a

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Speaker 3: little too good at time.

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Speaker 2: Well sure, but in this case, like the actual machinery

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Speaker 2: that was developed by doctors who are like, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to treat these patients.

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Speaker 4: I would physically manipulate you into a sense of sedate

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Speaker 4: well being and invulsions and it's all above board, your

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Speaker 4: husband cannot be in the room.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't want to get on any kind of

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Speaker 3: like feminist soap ex here, but it did occur to me.

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Speaker 3: Maybe this is like stating the most obvious thing. I

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Speaker 3: think women have been sort of subjugated over time because

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Speaker 3: they are just the most powerful force that we know.

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Speaker 3: They're the only ones that can actually create men, create

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Speaker 3: more men who could potentially subjugate other men. Again, probably

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Speaker 3: stating the obvious, but it's pretty wild when you think

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Speaker 3: about to what degree that was realized and then just

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Speaker 3: driven home by men.

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Speaker 1: Oh one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: Well there's we're I don't know if we're going to

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Speaker 2: get into it. But there was a whole hypnosis panic

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Speaker 2: akin to the Satanic panic.

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Speaker 3: Yes for a while, Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: Cool, Yeah, and that's the dangerous thing. Okay. So so

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Speaker 1: Mesmer had a lot of ideas about how to get

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Speaker 1: these crises going, and a lot of his ideas, now

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Speaker 1: this is an unintentional pun, rubbed people the wrong way.

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Speaker 1: There were numerous allegations that he had inappropriate relationships with

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Speaker 1: female patients. That was kind of true. I find it

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Speaker 1: also incredibly interesting that his big, his big fall from

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Speaker 1: Grace comes about when King Louis the sixteenth hears about this,

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Speaker 1: and you know, Louise is balling out at this point.

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Speaker 1: So he convenes a panel of experts, just like people

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Speaker 1: that he can reach who he thinks are smart, and

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Speaker 1: he says, investigate this mesmer guy's claims. See if there's

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Speaker 1: real science to what he's saying. One of those guys

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Speaker 1: was the famous Libertine ambassador Benjamin Franklin, who also had

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Speaker 1: some inappropriate relationships throughout his life. And they said, according

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Speaker 1: to our report, and you can read this online, he said,

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Speaker 1: mesmerism is utterly fallacious and without merit, a little bit hypocritical,

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Speaker 1: ben But.

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Speaker 2: And he added, don't check my house for body.

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Speaker 1: It is to check my London basement. And they're like,

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Speaker 1: why did you put that at the top of every pitch.

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Speaker 1: Just don't do it, please, don't do it, so right now,

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Speaker 1: So like that's that's the past. But because of the

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Speaker 1: controversy surrounding this just this guy Mesmer, then it gave

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Speaker 1: birth to a cavalcade of accusations against hypnotism. And similar

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Speaker 1: to the way that the US government's war against hallucinogens

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Speaker 1: stymied a lot of research into addiction and into you know,

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Speaker 1: the power of the mind and body relationship. Mesmer's terrible reputation,

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Speaker 1: I would argue, also hamstrung the efforts of scientists who

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Speaker 1: had come later. For a long time, the controversy surrounding

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Speaker 1: this guy transferred into a controversy around hypnosis in general,

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Speaker 1: and that's why a lot of times now people think

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Speaker 1: of it as like a novelty. Did you guys ever

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Speaker 1: play that game? Light as a feather, stiff as a

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Speaker 1: board is getting?

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Speaker 3: I played it. I just remember it from the craft

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Speaker 3: very vividly. But that's the one where you're supposed to

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Speaker 3: be able to put your fingers underneath the edges of

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Speaker 3: a person's body and levitate them, you know, with the

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Speaker 3: combined power of your mind. Right, yes, sir, Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: was too happy. I was too stiff.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Well this this is a that's a

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Speaker 1: form of hypnosis too, because really hypnosis is a series

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Speaker 1: of tactics that create another create a state and the feeling. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like it's kind of like driving toward

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Speaker 1: the center of your whatever country you're hearing this in.

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Speaker 1: There are multiple roads that lead there, but your destination

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Speaker 1: is the same.

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Speaker 3: There was this group of kind of weirdo performance artists,

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Speaker 3: sort of hippies in the late sixties called the Yippies.

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Speaker 3: I believe Kenneth Anger, the filmmaker and an artist, was

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Speaker 3: a part of it. And they supposedly did light as

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Speaker 3: a featherstiff as a board on the Pentagon and the

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Speaker 3: White House, and they claim to have levitated it a

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Speaker 3: centimeter or so into the air, which it was all

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Speaker 3: kind of like for you know, lulls and kind of

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Speaker 3: like satire. But that's the whole thing, is Hey, if

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Speaker 3: it's a shared belief, if we all believe it happened

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Speaker 3: and felt that it happened, then it happened.

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Speaker 2: You know, except for all the places where it's connected

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Speaker 2: to the load bearing you know, rods, they can't well, first.

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Speaker 1: Off, we need to look at buildings that are situated

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Speaker 1: on lay lines. Right shout out to that episode. So

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Speaker 1: all right, right now, skeptics and scientists don't buy a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff about hypnosis. They're not saying it's both.

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Speaker 1: What they're saying is they don't buy a lot of

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Speaker 1: the more extravagant claims about the effects or potential of

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Speaker 1: these processes. And then law enforcement has their own special

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Speaker 1: traumatic story, a story about trauma. In fact, they are

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Speaker 1: pretty gun shy about types of hypnosis, such as memory

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Speaker 1: recovery or memory regression therapy. And there's a good reason

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Speaker 1: for that. We don't understand hypnosis fully. Humans don't and

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Speaker 1: probably never will because it's a smaller question about a

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Speaker 1: bigger problem, which is that humans still do not understand

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Speaker 1: the human mind and may not for the foreseeable future.

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Speaker 1: But despite all the controversy, there is one thing for certain.

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Speaker 1: You can bet your bottom dollar on it. Hypnosis is real.

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Speaker 1: Sorry to the guy reached out on Twitter, hypnosis is

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Speaker 1: real asterisk depending on how you define it.

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Speaker 2: See's speaking of mess Somebody just went through time and said,

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Speaker 2: bet your bottom dollar that tomorrow, and it just happened

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Speaker 2: as soon as you said it, and complained in my mind,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm in a weird state, guys.

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Speaker 1: Let's get in a state of sponsored add Hey, how

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Speaker 1: about that. Here's where it gets crazy. Okay, Real hypnosis

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Speaker 1: triggers anchors, post hypnotic suggestions, Manchurian candidates. We'll get to

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Speaker 1: all of that first. I think we got a bust

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Speaker 1: some myths. Did you guys ever see that film The

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Speaker 1: Cabinet of Doctor Caligari.

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Speaker 3: In film school but a minute because of all the

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Speaker 3: canton angles and the crazy like it evokes a sense

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Speaker 3: and this is a technique that's been used in film.

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Speaker 3: Fincher uses it a lot where at the angle of

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Speaker 3: the camera sort of tilted, it puts you in a

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Speaker 3: different mindset, a mindset of maybe insanity or approaching madness,

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Speaker 3: things like that. And that's the movie that really kind

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Speaker 3: of created that language, which is really really cool and

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Speaker 3: it's it looks very modern. Actually, it's a real cool movie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're gonna spoil it, so this is your

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Speaker 1: spoiler warning three to one spoilers. The ostensible bad guy

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Speaker 1: for a lot of the film most of the film

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Speaker 1: is a dude named Caesar and it's spelled ceesa r.

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Speaker 1: He is a hulking murderer. He's an evil somnambulist, a sleepwalker,

397
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Speaker 1: and he's compelled to commit these homicides left and right.

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Speaker 1: He's a real nasty customer. This depiction of hypnosis is

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Speaker 1: not true it later it turns out in the film

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Speaker 1: that the real bad guy is doctor Caligari, or is it.

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00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: Because there's a twist at the end. But the reason

402
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Speaker 1: this doesn't work, the reason it's what Joe Biden would

403
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Speaker 1: call malarkey, is that real hypnosis does not remove free will.

404
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 1: To your earlier example, Matt, about the icebreakers at a

405
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Speaker 1: college or at college tours, that stage hypnotist cannot compel

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Speaker 1: someone to murder someone or to act against their own

407
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Speaker 1: kind of like moral compass, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: There's a great example of that exact thing been in

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Speaker 2: that Pentin Teller BS episode where the stage hypnotist says, oh, now,

410
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Speaker 2: everybody look down at your shoes. Oh, it's the most

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Speaker 2: adorable puppy dog you've ever seen in your life. And

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Speaker 2: everybody picks up their shoes and they pretend that they've

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Speaker 2: got their cute dogs, and he's asking questions about their

414
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Speaker 2: individual dogs. And in the post interview for Penn Teller's

415
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Speaker 2: BS with all of the people who got hypnotized, they

416
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Speaker 2: were all reporting, well, no, it was just I mean,

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Speaker 2: it was fun to pretend, and I felt like I could,

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Speaker 2: and it was just it was, you know, basically, that's

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Speaker 2: what they're reporting.

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Speaker 3: To Ben's earlier part or maybe years as well, Matt

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Speaker 3: about crossing over into this like you know place where

422
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Speaker 3: you can be more permissive with yourself and perhaps have

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Speaker 3: a good time and play a little bit and be

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Speaker 3: part of the show. And again to the point where

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Speaker 3: anyone that wasn't down with that would keep their hand

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Speaker 3: perfect firmly planted under their behinds.

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Speaker 1: Social pressure, peer pressure and social dynamics, they're a huge

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Speaker 1: part of that when you're working with groups as well.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, if you put someone into trance, what

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Speaker 1: we're saying is they don't all of a sudden become

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00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 1: an autumaton of some sort, even if they're very, very suggestible.

432
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: Instead instead of dozing, really they're hyper attentive. They're just

433
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: hyper attentive on different things than they would ordinarily be

434
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 1: attending to. And there are different kinds of hypnosis. The

435
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 1: two biggest self hypnosis and hypnosis brought on by an

436
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: external source. In the modern day, that's a psychiatrist. In

437
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 1: the past, it might have been a magician, the local

438
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: holy figure, you name it. The weird thing is, and

439
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,719
Speaker 1: we'll see how this is true. But the weird thing is, folks,

440
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: you likely hypnotize yourself. You are your number one hypnotist.

441
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: We talked about that a little bit with our pal

442
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: Joe McCormick about the kind of flow, absent minded state

443
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: you might get in when you're taking the same route

444
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 1: to or from work every day. You might hypnotize yourself

445
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: during repetitive task and who doesn't have a moment of

446
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: reverie when you're falling asleep or when you're kind of

447
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,360
Speaker 1: waking up and you're still sort of dreaming. That's self hypnosis.

448
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: There's another popular thing that you can find on TikTok

449
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: or Instagram wherever you look YouTube, something that would be

450
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,959
Speaker 2: titled probably guided meditation, and it's very similar to a

451
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 2: hypnosis session. And they are separate things, right, but that

452
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 2: there's there's so many similarities here, this concept of just

453
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 2: maybe this is why I'm confused, because I think in

454
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: that state you can be hyper attentive to the words

455
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: that are coming out, but also you can These are

456
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 2: often used to relax and to get people to fall asleep.

457
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 2: So I wonder where that line is between a state

458
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 2: of hypnosis that is hyper attentive that is also just

459
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 2: lulling you into relaxation. So like, I think there's there's

460
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 2: something there, right, there's a space, oh eliminal space in

461
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 2: between those two states that is that is fascinating.

462
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 3: I don't know. You know what's funny too, is you

463
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 3: got me thinking about film noir. It's it's a trope

464
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: you see come up in film noir a lot, like

465
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 3: in terms of like the shadow self and like the

466
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 3: idea of what could make someone capable of murder, you know,

467
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 3: or even like perhaps someone was committing murder while under

468
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 3: the influence of hypnosis from an external party who is

469
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 3: trying to control their actions and stuff like that. So

470
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 3: I'm looking at this list of amazing film noir from

471
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 3: the forties and fifties, and I've got some homework to do.

472
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:30,239
Speaker 3: But really really interesting how that this idea, especially with like,

473
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 3: you know, things like Freud and just you know, psychoanalysis,

474
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 3: they sort of went hand in hand and really invaded

475
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 3: the popular kind of consciousness.

476
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that, right, The shadow of Freud

477
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: leans long into the modern day and actually leads to

478
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: some of the problems we're going to explore here, some

479
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: of the moral panics and conspiracies. That's your question, Like

480
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: what is the difference between say a sleep aid and

481
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: auditory sleep aid and this kind of guided hip. I

482
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 1: would say that it's still again, it's that example of

483
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: different roads to the same city, because those things still

484
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,239
Speaker 1: get you hyper attentive, but you're hyper attentive upon the

485
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: inner workings of your mind right your your environment. The

486
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: guided imagery is sometimes a big thing in those meditation videos,

487
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,719
Speaker 1: like we're going to the waterfall, you know, picture relaxing

488
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: by the beach, a.

489
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 3: Lot of thing in your cave.

490
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: But it's a hypnosis technique to do that very exact,

491
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 2: same exact thing.

492
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying.

493
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, okay, yeah, So I think as it gets

494
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 2: weird to me because it is we're talking about self

495
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: hypnosis now at this point guided meditation. To me, it

496
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 2: rides the line of self hypnosis and somebody hypnotizing you,

497
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 2: which is really weird because it's so often just experience

498
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: with headphones right when you're in bed getting ready.

499
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 3: Well, okay, this is just me showing you.

500
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 2: I've done that many a time, a self guided meditation

501
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 2: while I'm trying to go to sleep or something. And

502
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,479
Speaker 2: I just wonder if you could convey messages to someone

503
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 2: that is being hyper attentive, just not on the conscious level.

504
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, like the hypnotize yourself into quitting smoking kind

505
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: of things. Or into changing some habit or some diet. Yeah,

506
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: and there was. That's still a really big industry. There's

507
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: a guy that I think we all got pretty into

508
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: named doctor David Spiegel, who's a Stanford University psychiatrist, one

509
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: of the top minds in the world of hypnosis. And

510
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: he puts it this way. He says, if you look

511
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: at the science during hypnosis and actually during flow state

512
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: in sports and feats of creativity, activity in brain regions

513
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: that helps you switch between task that's what starts to

514
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: shut down, and the same region seems to disconnect from

515
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: another part of your brain that helps you notice when

516
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: you are being self reflective or notice when you're day dreaming.

517
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: So the part of you that questions your stream of

518
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: thought why it's down, that's that's the giant who is

519
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: being put to sleep. Weird, it's a weird one. And

520
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: also I've never done this now, I don't know anybody

521
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: who has to be fair, but it seems that hypnosis

522
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: can also be used to help you slowly gain control

523
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,959
Speaker 1: over autonomic functions that people usually can't control voluntarily, stuff

524
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: like your heart rate, your blood flow, things like that.

525
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: Like that's why people in these states their breathing tends

526
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: to calm down, right, it slows their bpms go down.

527
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,719
Speaker 2: It's doctor Spiegels found like that that actually works.

528
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: You can in gender that state when you are hypnotizing

529
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: someone and putting them in a tranced state. But and

530
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: Spiegel didn't say this, But what I have heard is

531
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: that people have been able to be trained or to

532
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: train themselves to have control over that sensory stimulus. It's

533
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: kind of like remember whim Hoff. Sure, the guy.

534
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 3: Who's towering his body temperature and all that.

535
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: But he uses physical breathing techniques. That's at it pumps

536
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 2: his core right, and like he's literally over exercising his

537
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: core to send into this state of like heating it

538
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 2: heating itself through kinetic movements. So I just wonder the

539
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 2: difference between like, because look, it's for me, it's still

540
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 2: feeling as though I cannot believe that there's some unseen

541
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: force that's being actually manipulated, right, the animal magnetism stuff.

542
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: I have trouble believing that that could possibly be true.

543
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 2: And I maybe it's because I'm still connecting it to

544
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: those concepts rather than just that the mind itself which

545
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: controls all of those functions. That you don't consciously think about,

546
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: like heart rate, right, or temperature or things like that.

547
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 2: Maybe you could harness control over that somehow by changing

548
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: the way you think. I don't know, it's just sorry,

549
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: I'm just having problems with it. Still, Hey, you.

550
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: Me and Noel in the rest of humanity, because again

551
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: this is still not fully understood, and I do have

552
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: to give credit where it's due. Wim Hoff probably not

553
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: the best example. I could have went off the dome

554
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: with our pals Robert and Sophie over it. Behind the Bastards.

555
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: I think they just recently released a pretty great series

556
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: on wim Hoff. Tune into that, as we always you

557
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: don't get.

558
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 3: Featured on that show unless you're kind of a pill.

559
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 2: Oh wait really, Oh no, I don't want to listen

560
00:32:58,600 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: to that.

561
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's it.

562
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 3: I do think it's interesting because that also is like,

563
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 3: you know, I know that he's been tested, you know,

564
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 3: science or whatever, and then it is determined that he

565
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: can do feats of extreme extremity or whatever, and that

566
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 3: he claims to be able to do a lot of

567
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 3: the stuff with by focusing his mind. That is connected

568
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 3: to a type of self hypnosis. It's sort of like

569
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 3: psychosomatic where it's like, if you believe something enough, you

570
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 3: can make your body do what your mind tells you

571
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 3: to do, sort of like lucid dreaming or being able

572
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 3: to gain self hypnotize in a way. But it's useful

573
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 3: to you.

574
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: M oh and yes, yeah, you're absolutely right, nol. And

575
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: that's also it was correct Behind the Bastards multi part

576
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: series on wim Hoff wim Hoff's surprisingly Deadly story, and

577
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: that is from September of this year, so pretty current.

578
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: We do know that regardless of the different variables we're

579
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:57,719
Speaker 1: going into hypnosis, guided or self almost said, inflicted, self inspired, whatever,

580
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: it generates that famous sense of physical relaxation. Hypnosis brings

581
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: us ultimately to the same state. All roads lead to

582
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: the same rome. Figuratively, the outer world falls away and

583
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you're like a deep sea diver

584
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: in the mind. You know what, dreams may come, et cetera.

585
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: You plunge into your own mental ocean and you're entranced

586
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: by your own inner world. Any hypnotic state can be

587
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: described as a trance state characterized by well, they'll say extreme,

588
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: but let's say higher than normal suggestibility, relaxation and a

589
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: heightened imagination, very reading, rainbow. These all sound like good things.

590
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 3: They do.

591
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 2: Sorry, I just sound is great.

592
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 3: Butterfly in the Sky am I right? Stop? Yeah it's

593
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 3: too late, man.

594
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: I'm glad we made I'm glad we made it through psychosomata,

595
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: even though I know we were all figuring a round it. Yeah.

596
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: So it's but the state is not like sleep, very

597
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: very important. It is not like sleep because the subject

598
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: in the trance is alert the entire time on some level.

599
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: That's why the Manchurian candidate stuff doesn't really work. We'll

600
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: get into that. We got a scary story there. Most

601
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: people can compare this to daydreaming, or the feeling that

602
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: you get when you when you mentally exist in another world,

603
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: like you watch an incredibly enrapturing or moving film, or

604
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 1: you read an amazing book and you kind of forget

605
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: where you are, or music can transport you as well.

606
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: That's that's what people compare it to, more so than

607
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: just like take a melatonin and conking out for you know,

608
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: four to eight hours or whatever.

609
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 2: I just remember one of the best examples of this

610
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 2: thing from a recent, well somewhat recent movie, Get Out

611
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 2: with the Yea.

612
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 3: The spoon, spoon trigger, yeah, and and cure. It's a lighter,

613
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 3: a flickering flame, it can be anything. Those are both

614
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: the that's visual and sonic at the same time, and

615
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 3: they're in sync with what another.

616
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: No, no, you're right. I'm like, I love that you bring

617
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: up the flame because the flame is one of the

618
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: oldest induction methods. And we'll learn about induction in like

619
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: a second. But the thing is whether whatever you call

620
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 1: these states, when people are in them, you are tuning

621
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: out the majority of the stuff happening in the physical

622
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: world around you so that you can hyper focus on

623
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: the subject at hand, the truth occurring in your mind,

624
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: whatever that could be. You're really paying a sort of

625
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: super attention. You're just taking all of the all of

626
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: the attention you would have paid to the outside world,

627
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: and you're putting it into your inner world. I mean, like,

628
00:36:55,400 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: that's so cool. It It means that the emotions you feel,

629
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 1: because they're the like non physical sensations, right, they're paying

630
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 1: more attention to those emotions are very real, and those

631
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: feelings then become for a time, your reality. It's pretty weird.

632
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: That's why, like the that's why hypnotists have to be

633
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: very careful with their leading questions.

634
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 2: It makes me think of hypnotic regression again. And when

635
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 2: you guys remember we talked to Toby Ball, who's made

636
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 2: a show Strange Arrivals. The first season was about the

637
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: Hill family, right, Benny and Barney Hill. And one of

638
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 2: the major pieces of that whole close encounter of the

639
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: third and or maybe fourth kind was that they were

640
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 2: they were hypnotically regressed and remembered things that they had

641
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,879
Speaker 2: not remembered before. And the big question was could any

642
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 2: of that have been implanted or like, could they have

643
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: been led down the pathway by the person leading the set?

644
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 3: Right?

645
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: Yes, it's dangerous, dude, That's one of the most dangerous parts.

646
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't do we want to Should we

647
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: talk about the basic process of hypnotism?

648
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,240
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I think people get the gist in general,

649
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 3: but I'd love to maybe even review some of the

650
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 3: terms you mentioned induction, you know, so, I think it's

651
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 3: definitely a smart movement.

652
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: Excellent idea. We're going to tell you the first and

653
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: most important thing about hypnotizing people right after this word

654
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: from our sponsors, and we have returned the first and

655
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: most important thing about any guided meditation any hypnotic activity

656
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 1: is to make sure the subject consens I know that

657
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: sounds like all goodie goodie, but it's very important. There

658
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: are ways to know. You asked about induction. There are

659
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: ways to get people to enter a hypnotic state without

660
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: their consent, but they're very unethical. They're also pretty difficult,

661
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: and it's best to avoid them. Once you have consent,

662
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: make sure the person's comfortable. Once you have them comfortable

663
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: with no interruptions, you can begin the process of induction.

664
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: Induction is just the fancy word for kind of ushering

665
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: someone in to this trance state. And there are a

666
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: million ways to do it. I'm using hyperbole. They're like

667
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: several dozen good ways to do it, and they really

668
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: depend on the subject more than they depend on the

669
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: hypnotists themselves. Like mentioned fire right, star into the fire.

670
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: They used to do that to us in boy Scouts.

671
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: Or they would say, or you know what's the other one?

672
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: The one we always hear.

673
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 3: The clock watch ependulum swinging thing, and it's to you know, focus,

674
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 3: make the eyes move in a hypnotic pat I'm also

675
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 3: like perhaps a crystal looking into a crystal ball, you

676
00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 3: know what I mean? That can be just as much

677
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 3: for the person on the other side as it is

678
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 3: for the quote unquote hypnotists or soothsayer. You know, it's

679
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 3: a shared experience.

680
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: A black mirror, yes, yes, like the like the minds

681
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: did once.

682
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 3: Upsprying mirror or something like that.

683
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 2: And also like an Apple iPhone fifteen promax just.

684
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: So just so brought to you by Apple quotes. So

685
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: there's yes, again, this very ancient stuff. And that's after that,

686
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: Assuming that works, you get to progressive relaxation. Progressive relaxation

687
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 1: is Matt kind of like what it's exactly what you

688
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: were describing with some of those things we've listened to

689
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: about going to sleep or meant to help you go

690
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: to sleep. Progressive relaxation just sort of makes you more

691
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,399
Speaker 1: conscious of your body, makes you more conscious of your

692
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: breathing and slowing that down. And this requires a certain

693
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: amount of willingness or trust on the subject's part. It

694
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: is again extremely difficult to hypnotize as someone who doesn't

695
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 1: want to be hypnotized. You also should not do it

696
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 1: because can sent is key. You can. You know, once

697
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: you get people relaxed and they're breathing and they're kind

698
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: of entering that trans state they're going to naturally start

699
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: to close their eyes. You can prompt them to do so.

700
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: The way a lot of folks will get into it

701
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: is counting. We've all seen this or heard this in

702
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: film as well. You may hear this in some meditation,

703
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: things like we're going to count from one to and

704
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: you know, pause at certain points to say, like feel

705
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: your body begin to float, the lightness, a warmness.

706
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 3: I do that with my therapist every time we start

707
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 3: and he does a mindfulness meditation, and I actually have

708
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 3: asked him of late, can we actually do that at

709
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 3: the end, because we do at the beginning. It's cool,

710
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 3: but sometimes I'm it's like I only see him every

711
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 3: couple of weeks. Sometimes I'm ready to jump right in

712
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,479
Speaker 3: and talk. But if you do it at the end,

713
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 3: it transitions me and allows me to think about sort

714
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 3: of what we've talked about, like me, but also kind

715
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 3: of just transition into the state of calm. So I've

716
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 3: really been enjoying doing it at the end, and then

717
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 3: it sort of feels like I'm getting the most value

718
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 3: out of the exercise.

719
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: And that's a that's a good point because that's we

720
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: see the bookend of this in hypnotic sessions. Like at

721
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 1: the end of a hypnosis session, there's the counting back

722
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: to the waking world, right, But once you have someone entranced,

723
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: then that's that's when the work begins. That's where you

724
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: have the repetition of phrases. That's where you have this

725
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: stuff where you set up like anchors, suggestions, triggers. Right,

726
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: you see a red light, you will always feel warm,

727
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: which is a very easy one because people already do

728
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: that if they can see red and green.

729
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 2: But again, we're not saying that you can actually make

730
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 2: someone respond to these things, right, because there's no scientific

731
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 2: proof that you do in all of this stuff we're

732
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 2: talking about, actually make someone see a chicken when they

733
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,240
Speaker 2: look at, you know, a shoe.

734
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: No, that's an extreme version, and that would be for

735
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: that to happen, you would need a lot more work

736
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: put in and it would not be ethical.

737
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 2: But we're saying we could. You could potentially pair the

738
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 2: color red with making someone think something.

739
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: You could, Yeah, you could make them more likely to

740
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: have that association as long as it was as long

741
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: as it was emotively anchored, as long as it's anchored

742
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: in an emotion.

743
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 3: You're talking about implanting as well. Right, that's sort of

744
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 3: what mentalists do, where they'll they'll implant an idea subconsciously

745
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 3: and then there's a trigger like the color red or

746
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 3: a word or whatever it might be. And again, this

747
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 3: is a Manatorian candidate's screen to action and killing somebody,

748
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 3: but it could make them say a thing or think

749
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 3: a thing. We can do that to ourselves all day long.

750
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 3: Be triggered by a thing that Matt joked earlier about,

751
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 3: what was it? Something that yeah, Annie, like I mean,

752
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 3: and that wasn't really a magical moment, but it was

753
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 3: something that triggered that thing in you that already existed.

754
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 3: And if a mentalist or practitioner of this kind of

755
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 3: stuff had put it there, then he could have easily

756
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 3: recalled that. I do believe that's true. I think the

757
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 3: stuff that Darren Brown does is absolutely real. But it's

758
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 3: also not magic. It's just weaponized psychology. Mm hmmm.

759
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: Yes. And at one point, at some point, we have

760
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 1: to ask, what's the difference. So you do this stuff,

761
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: and you know, you say, like you'll have a more

762
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: hardcore thing would be implanting a suggestion or attempting to

763
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:36,919
Speaker 1: implant an association of disgust with like cigarettes, right, every

764
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: time you pick up a cigarette, you will you'll be

765
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: repulsed by the smell or the taste of it in

766
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: your mouth or something like that. And people have sworn

767
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: by that. But again, it's not one hundred percent solution

768
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: because at the every step of the way, there are

769
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: myriad there's a myriad of options and variables. There's no

770
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: real silver bullet. That's all malarchy. There's no one side

771
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: fits all.

772
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 4: Uh.

773
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: What I love about your conversation with your therapist, Noal

774
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: is when people count out of a hypnotic session, they

775
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: are often the hypnotist is often going to encourage the

776
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 1: subject to continue carrying that warm, relaxed feeling when they exit,

777
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,280
Speaker 1: and that's a cool, powerful.

778
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 3: Thing, Plasmo effect or no. I do find that it

779
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 3: makes me feel a little more grounded, a little more chill,

780
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 3: and a little more able to shake off some of

781
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 3: the stresses of my week and or day, you know.

782
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: And here's here's the other thing. Okay, we're going into

783
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,240
Speaker 1: the deep water now. Sorry. I recently rewatched What Dreams

784
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: May Come, and it's messing with me. I loved it,

785
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 1: so we know.

786
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 3: It's a bummer it's it's heavy, it's it's good, it's amazing,

787
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 3: it's just God. Not to mention, I haven't rewatched it

788
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 3: since we've lost dear Robin Williams, so that may even

789
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 3: make it hard to watch.

790
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: He's really good in serious roles. Not. Yes, we know

791
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 1: to the earlier point that we've all made in the

792
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 1: course of tonight's show, we all know that you cannot,

793
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: through hypnosis alone, create something that create a Manchurian candidate.

794
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: One cannot compel a person to do things that they

795
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: would not ordinarily do or that they have a strong

796
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: moral moral barrier against. However, you can get closer to

797
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 1: that kind of thing if you use other compliance techniques,

798
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: brainwashing drugs. Check out the story of Buckley when he

799
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: got abducted by the CIA. Evil evil, infernal stuff.

800
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 2: But I guess what I'm saying is if you can,

801
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 2: if you can convince someone to feel disgusted when they

802
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 2: look at a physical object like a cigarette, then you could.

803
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 2: Then it would you would have to be able to

804
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 2: convince someone to feel a certain way when they, let's say,

805
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 2: look at a picture of a certain political leader, right, yes, yeah,

806
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 2: I mean you.

807
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: Could do that, because that is an emotive feeling, but

808
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 1: that feeling does not have a one to one translation

809
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: to an action, which is why people can go through

810
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: these self hypnosis things and then they'll still smoke or something,

811
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, so there is an

812
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: air gap there, and it's a very important one I think.

813
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, you're absolutely right. The most dangerous thing we

814
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: teased it. We had to do it at the beginning.

815
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 1: This is probably an episode we want to revisit in full,

816
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: in more detail, but for now you need to know.

817
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 1: The most dangerous thing about hypnosis, outside of mass hypnosis,

818
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: outside of propaganda, the most dangerous thing in the West

819
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 1: is the widespread panic of memory regression. The recovered memory

820
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: movement of the eighties and nineties is the idea that

821
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: you could have experienced childhood sexual abuse, or you know,

822
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: just very very unspeakably horrific things in your past, and

823
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: they would be so horrible and so scarring that you

824
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: would bury them and you would never think about them

825
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,359
Speaker 1: until a skilled therapist who happens to have a book

826
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 1: that they can sell you once.

827
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 3: Along brought it out of you. Right. Yeah, that's where

828
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 3: we start getting into the kind of implantation that's a

829
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 3: little more deadly in life ruining than just like a

830
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 3: reality show with Darren Brown.

831
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the stuff where, this is the stuff

832
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 1: where the danger of leading questions and soft suggestions comes

833
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 1: into play, because when people are in a very suggestible state,

834
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 1: these therapists are, they're portraying themselves in the eighties and

835
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: nineties as kind of a I would call a cognitive spelunker. Right,

836
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: we're going back through the layers and we're finding we're

837
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: finding that grain, you know, that led to the actions

838
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: and the feelings you can't explain in the modern day

839
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: as the modern you. This seemed like a revelation at first,

840
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: patients all across the Western world where claiming they had

841
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 1: recovered memories of abuse that began maybe in infancy, lasted

842
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: for decades they had completely forgotten about them. And this

843
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: also saw the rise or the popularization of the idea

844
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: that trauma would be so bad that your mind had

845
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 1: fractured into multiple personalities, which is where we see things

846
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 1: like is the pop culture phenomenon sibyl that's the right one, right,

847
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: So that's correct?

848
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's sure.

849
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 1: So in how dangerous did this get? Well, people got

850
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted shout out Jason Flum based off of these

851
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: memories that appear to have been repressed. And again, no

852
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,399
Speaker 1: one's a villain here. Everybody who was working in good

853
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: faith turned out those memories might have been manufactured. And

854
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: this leads a guy, uh, well, he was already a

855
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: Harvard psychology professor. But in two thousand and five, Richard McNally,

856
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:12,760
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's related to the MAP Empire.

857
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,320
Speaker 1: He calls the recovery recovered memory movement quote the worst

858
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: catastrophe to befall the mental health field since the lobotomy era.

859
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: Those are strong words, right, they are strong words.

860
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 3: And you know, obviously things that were invasively a trepanation,

861
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 3: you know, drilling holes and the skulls to release demons

862
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 3: and stuff, lobotomies, things like that, horrific abuses of science

863
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 3: quote unquote of power. And so I could see how

864
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 3: you might could potentially categorize this kind of stuff as

865
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 3: soft sciences. They couldn't possibly do as much damage as

866
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 3: drilling into someone's brain or attaching electrodes to them, but

867
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 3: left unchecked, it can do just that. It can do

868
00:50:58,160 --> 00:50:58,919
Speaker 3: horrible things.

869
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 1: Shout out fantastic New York Times piece by a guy

870
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: named Ethan Waters, who is the co author of a

871
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: book called Making Monsters, which came out in nineteen ninety four.

872
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 1: It is about this phenomenon, the recovered memory movement, and

873
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: he points out that all of the techniques these therapists

874
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: were using, they have been proven to be much more

875
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: likely to distort memory rather than to help enhance accurate recalls. So, yeah,

876
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 1: the science was out and the backlash was pretty quick,

877
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: but it was overwhelmed by the deluge of pop culture

878
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 1: and self help books, all of which shed the deluge

879
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,720
Speaker 1: of delusions, yes perfect, all of which seemed to paint

880
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: these therapists as these great fonts of knowledge, these gurus

881
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: who could solve any problem you had by finding a

882
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: memory that you did not know existed, or a.

883
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 3: Crime I am perhaps that you may or may not

884
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 3: have witnessed. We already know that eyewitness accounts are so fallible,

885
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 3: even though they seem like they wouldn't be. The mind

886
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 3: does crazy things to convince you that you're correct and

887
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 3: that you're remembering, and oftentimes there can be a confirmation

888
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 3: bias at play, and if someone's really pushing you to

889
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:24,720
Speaker 3: remember the thing, you can very easily manufacture that memory

890
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 3: inside your head well thinking.

891
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,240
Speaker 2: I mean, it's almost a hypnotic state when you're sitting

892
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 2: there and being interrogated for hours on end being told

893
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 2: you're not telling us the truth. Come on, Jimmy, you're

894
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 2: not telling us the truth. But no, I am telling

895
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: you the truth. You're not telling us the truth. We're

896
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 2: gonna be here till you tell us the truth.

897
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 3: And then I got a thing. I gotta go fin

898
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 3: nights at Freddy's.

899
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: You do the befriending thing. Yeah, yeah, there's a whole

900
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:49,280
Speaker 1: there's a whole pattern twisted.

901
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 2: But really quickly, just what this is the last time

902
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 2: I'm going to reference that Pen and Teller episode. There

903
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 2: is someone named Wendy Freesen f r I E s

904
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 2: e N and it's spelled w E N d I.

905
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 2: This is a person who in nineteen ninety four, and

906
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 2: this is coming back because of the time that this

907
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 2: New York piece was written in nineteen ninety four. She

908
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 2: on that pent and Teller episode takes a woman back

909
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 2: through hypnotic regression to the moment of birth right, and

910
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 2: it's to help her get over some anxieties that she's having.

911
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 2: They just, you know, scientifically, they talk about well, actually,

912
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 2: the way the eyes develop, there's no way you could

913
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 2: have the clear picture of all the things that were

914
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 2: just described throughout. You know, this person who has just

915
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 2: supposedly went through this birth process right through hypnotic regression.

916
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 2: This same person, Wendy has been making audio and video

917
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 2: products for sale for years and years and years since

918
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four. She I'm just gonna run quickly run

919
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 2: down the types of hypnosis that she or like sessions

920
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 2: that she will sell to you on through her website

921
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:56,320
Speaker 2: wendyweandi dot com, which you can still go to. You

922
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 2: can take a financial abundance course for one hundred and

923
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 2: fifty bucks. You can take a back pain relief hypnosis

924
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 2: session for fifty bucks, a stroke recovery session for thirty bucks.

925
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 2: You can remotely influence somebody for forty five dollars.

926
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 3: Why only thirty for the stroke recovery.

927
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 2: I don't know then, I think I think it's multiple

928
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 2: videos in a course or something. You can end your

929
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 2: pornography addiction for fifty bucks. You can enlarge your breasts

930
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 2: through her hypnosis sessions for forty dollars, or you can

931
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 2: get a penis enlargement for seventy dollars.

932
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 1: Oh wow, she knows people pay more for that.

933
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,320
Speaker 2: Huh. Well, But it's all going back to this concept

934
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 2: that through your you can trick your mind into doing

935
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 2: things like growing more cells in your penis or you know, no,

936
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 2: I'm serious.

937
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 3: I know that's the belief. I'll still giggle when people

938
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:54,839
Speaker 3: say penis because I'm a child.

939
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:57,399
Speaker 2: But but it all goes back to this same thing

940
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 2: of like you're in a way, you were tricking yourself

941
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 2: into believing something to the point where in this case,

942
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 2: like this New York Times article that we're referencing here,

943
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 2: you are tricking someone into believing they maybe even did

944
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 2: something that they didn't do exactly.

945
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, And if it's a past occurrence, then you don't

946
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 1: need physical evidence the way you would need with like

947
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: enlargement of body parts, right, or improvement of vision. And

948
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: this goes into Okay, so this moral panic the reason

949
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 1: hypnosis can be so dangerous.

950
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:32,320
Speaker 3: First, it Israel.

951
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: It does do some things, it doesn't do what Charlatan's claim,

952
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 1: and it certainly has a at least the way it

953
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 1: was applied during the recovery movement, the recovered memory movement,

954
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,280
Speaker 1: it was certainly more likely to invent implant or distort

955
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: memories than it was to help you accurately recall things,

956
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 1: and people went so nuts for this. These folks were

957
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 1: celebrities on name your favorite talk show here all the hits, Oprah,

958
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: Ricky Lake, Donahue, I think it was Donahue, a million,

959
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 1: Fox and Friends, Fox and Friends, like this before Fox

960
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: and Friends. But they would have loved it. They probably

961
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 1: did do this right they were and this is the

962
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 1: most dangerous part. Though states changed their statute of limitation

963
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 1: laws to allow for criminal prosecutions based entirely on repressed memories.

964
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: That is thankfully no longer the case, because it turns

965
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 1: out that was very dangerous and innocent people got locked up.

966
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 3: Well, but to your point, both of y'all's points about

967
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 3: like convincing yourself that something has happened, and maybe that

968
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 3: even convinces the practitioner that they've actually done something. It's

969
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 3: it's almost like self fulfilling prophecy, or that's sort of

970
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 3: like cope, what's the word almost like parasitic slash kind

971
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 3: of not what's the word where you're actually kind of

972
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 3: helping symbiotic kind of Exactly do you think that? I mean,

973
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 3: I don't I personally. Don't think that everyone who believes

974
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 3: the stuff. You know, that everyone who purports to be

975
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 3: able to do this are Charlatans. No, I think some

976
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 3: people really believe in it, and they think that what

977
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 3: they're doing is actually helping people, and maybe it is.

978
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 3: Maybe there are some instances where this is helping.

979
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: If you feel better again, if you're in a state

980
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 1: where an emotional experience is your core focused reality, then

981
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: that does have measurable effects on the body over time.

982
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 1: It's just I think it's really important that you pointed

983
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: that out. The vast majority of these practitioners were acting

984
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 1: in good faith. They were probably inadvertently doing dangerous things,

985
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: but they weren't all out for a cash grab. And

986
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 1: there's a thing that happens, right, because the practitioners are

987
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:49,919
Speaker 1: themselves human, right, there's a fundamental design flaw they can't

988
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: get around. And how many people have to tell you

989
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: that you have magic powers before you start to believe

990
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: there might be something to these claims. It's social dynamics

991
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: and another form of pure pressure yet a gut.

992
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 3: And there's no FDA process for checking out and overseeing

993
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 3: you know, hypnosis, and you don't need any equipment you've

994
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 3: already got it all, you know, So there's really it's

995
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 3: very difficult to oversee this kind of stuff unless something

996
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 3: absolutely catastrophic happens.

997
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I yeah, I think it just points to maybe

998
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 2: the dangers of feedback loops in general, because I'm again like,

999
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 2: in defense of that person I called out Wendy, it

1000
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 2: looks like in all the video I've seen of her,

1001
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 2: in all the writing I've seen in her website, that

1002
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 2: she truly believes she's helping people and is capable of

1003
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 2: providing those services. I can't, you know, subjectively whether I

1004
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 2: believe her or not, that's one thing, But she appears

1005
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 2: to truly believe it, and I do wonder if that's

1006
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 2: exactly what it is. Been just she's been told enough

1007
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 2: times that it works, right. She in the Pentaitellar episode,

1008
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 2: she says she got a call from a guy who said, yeah,

1009
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 2: it grew an.

1010
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: Inch his rest his self confidence. Let's go with that euphemism. So, yeah,

1011
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: it is a good point. And you know, we also

1012
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 1: we're also aware that, look, if you are a patient

1013
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: of any sort, you will tend to adopt your healers

1014
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 1: patterns of behavior and belief, and you might not know

1015
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 1: you're doing that. Even little stuff like mirroring behaviors. You'll

1016
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: pick up cues and clues from social settings and you

1017
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: might not be aware that this is happening. And the doctors,

1018
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: the therapist, the psychiatrists, there's a ton of literature on this.

1019
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: They have to be very careful to not unintentionally cause

1020
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: you to pick up things, pick up cues that you

1021
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: don't know you're throwing. And that's why all this leads

1022
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: us to, of course, the Satanic panic. This also leads

1023
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: us to the reason the American Psychological Association has said

1024
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 1: conclusively it is not possible to distinguish repressed memories from

1025
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 1: false memories without corroborating evidence. We need something physical there.

1026
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: And this tells us the following hypnosis is real. You

1027
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 1: hypnotize yourself more than likely on a regular, if limited basis. Yes,

1028
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 1: hypnosis can be used for dangerous purposes, even with the

1029
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: best of intentions. But you know, there's so much we

1030
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 1: didn't get to. The susceptibility scale, like the reason about

1031
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 1: two thirds of human beings are considered to be pretty

1032
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 1: susceptible to suggestion. I should say pretty suggestible. I don't

1033
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:42,600
Speaker 1: want to make it look like a weakness because it is.

1034
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 1: It kind of does have a correlation with the power

1035
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 1: of your imagination, which is a beautiful thing. We didn't

1036
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 1: really go into this a ton, but like, there are

1037
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 1: people that are more quote unquote suggestible than others.

1038
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 3: Yes, that's real. Like, and I was gonna mention earlier,

1039
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 3: like the one time I've seen a hypnosis show was

1040
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 3: at the Renaissance Fair here in Atlanta, and I was

1041
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 3: pretty impressed because, like I just I don't think these

1042
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 3: people were plants, and I don't remember exactly what they did,

1043
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 3: but it was some stuff that was really interesting and

1044
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 3: pretty compelling. And I remember, I'm pretty you know, I'm

1045
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 3: skeptical as the next person on this kind of stuff,

1046
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 3: and I just remember seeing some of these people just

1047
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 3: walking around. They weren't stooges, as Darren Brown calls them.

1048
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 3: They were just there having a good time with their families,

1049
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 3: and they definitely did some weird stuff. So I do

1050
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 3: love that we've pointed out the whole idea of the

1051
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 3: performative aspect of it and how it's fun to just

1052
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 3: participate and have a good time, and maybe that's more

1053
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 3: of it than anything. Maybe that is it, but I

1054
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 3: do remember being taken by it and being like, oh man,

1055
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 3: how does he pick out the ones that are the

1056
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 3: most suggestible? Because he picks and chooses, a lot of

1057
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 3: people raise their hands and the person on stage decides,

1058
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 3: you know, who to take up there.

1059
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be crazy if you heard a fingersnap and

1060
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 1: noll you open your eyes and you were on stage

1061
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 1: at the Renaissance Fair so for years right.

1062
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 3: Now it had been for a year. Dude, Oh my god,

1063
01:01:57,240 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 3: that's terrified. That's good story material right there. I like that.

1064
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 2: Are you guys cool with me? I don't believe hypnosis

1065
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 2: is real at all? Oh please, I don't think you

1066
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 2: can do any like. I don't think it's real. I

1067
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 2: think I think we're the thing that is like hypnosis

1068
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 2: and meditation and some of those things that you can

1069
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 2: like access is not the same thing as hypnosis. But

1070
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 2: because I understand meditation and guided things like implanting ideas

1071
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 2: when you're in a susceptible state is one thing. But

1072
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 2: like hypnosis, hypnosis, I don't think it's a real thing.

1073
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: That's why I say it's like, it's the definition what

1074
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 1: is hypnosis? Hypnosis? Then how do we define the thing

1075
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: that is not.

1076
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 2: Real, someone putting you under, getting you calm, and then

1077
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 2: making you think things that you're unaware of.

1078
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 1: Okay, but then that would be How is that different

1079
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 1: from implanting a memory.

1080
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 2: I don't think you. It's weird because I don't think you.

1081
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 2: I don't think you can do that either. I think

1082
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 2: you can take someone into a place where you like

1083
01:02:57,120 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 2: create a story in your head. But to me, that's

1084
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,960
Speaker 2: not implant a memory. That is literally using your imagination

1085
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 2: to come up with a scenario.

1086
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 3: But what if we took it to an even a

1087
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 3: more extreme, like borderline techno torture kind of situation where

1088
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 3: you literally had like like clockwork Orange, you know, where

1089
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 3: you've got someone being forced to watch stuff on a

1090
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:20,600
Speaker 3: loop for an incredible long periods of time, and pair

1091
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 3: that with drug injections that make you open up to

1092
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:26,480
Speaker 3: this kind of suggestion, Like do you think that's possible?

1093
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 2: But that's like torture? And I think it's just the

1094
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:32,920
Speaker 2: terminology maybe, is what I've like, am having a problem with.

1095
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 3: I understand. I think we're all on the same page. Frankly,

1096
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 3: That's why I really do MM.

1097
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 2: Well, but it's weird because you can do things like,

1098
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 2: I got a feeling.

1099
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 3: I don't remember the next lines.

1100
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 2: It's gonna be something which just to how many people

1101
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:53,280
Speaker 2: in their target, Because you can do weird stuff like

1102
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 2: that right with the mind. You can play tricks with

1103
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 2: somebody's mind if you have bad intentions through repetition.

1104
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 3: It's about repetition. I wouldn't have been able to finish

1105
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 3: that line for you if I hadn't heard that song

1106
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 3: of a gazillion.

1107
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 1: That's one of the tools. Repetition is one of the tools.

1108
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: But definitely, yeah, I see you, Matt, and I do

1109
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 1: like to your point, noll, I do think we're all

1110
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 1: on once we get past the nomenclature. I think we're

1111
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 1: on the same page about the phenomenon and the limits

1112
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 1: importantly of that of that phenomenon, right, because you know,

1113
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 1: there's no way someone's going to be hypnotized into flying

1114
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 1: because humans don't do that without a specific set of tools.

1115
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and changing your mind about it is not

1116
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 1: going to help you beat gravity or other kind of

1117
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:41,080
Speaker 1: physical limitations.

1118
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I'm thinking about just watching the news or something,

1119
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:48,040
Speaker 2: depending on how you feel about like a political issue

1120
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 2: or a global news issue. I feel like that's more

1121
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:54,920
Speaker 2: conditioning based on what you've encountered in the past.

1122
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 3: There, how is conditioning different than hypnosis? That's what how

1123
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 3: now we're getting somewhere? I think what I was describing

1124
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:03,920
Speaker 3: too earlier, the clockwork orange example, that's conditioning to an

1125
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 3: aggressive degree. Hypnosis is almost meant to be a shortcut

1126
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 3: to long term conditioning.

1127
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it's just the H word and the

1128
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 1: way it's been associated with such Kakamami's stuff since the

1129
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 1: days of Mesmer and well before. But the idea of

1130
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 1: a flow state or trance or suggestibility is that part

1131
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:26,320
Speaker 1: is real and that does have you know, it's a

1132
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 1: kissing cousin to conditioning. It can be used as a

1133
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 1: kind of conditioning. But folks, we we're obviously, we're obviously

1134
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:38,880
Speaker 1: having a lot of fun with this. We've all consented

1135
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 1: to be here. We are not in a current trance state.

1136
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed tonight's show. We would love to

1137
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 1: hear your opinions.

1138
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 2: Harmonica or not.

1139
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 1: What this is?

1140
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 2: I have this thing.

1141
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:55,600
Speaker 3: It says music on it. It looks like somebod's supposed

1142
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 3: to blow into but I don't know what it does.

1143
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:02,440
Speaker 3: It doesn't really do anything. I've been holding off on

1144
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:04,520
Speaker 3: throwing it away because I was like, maybe it's useful,

1145
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:06,360
Speaker 3: but I don't think it is. Sorry, guys, I.

1146
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 2: Was listening to Ben and I felt like I was

1147
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 2: being pulled back from a hypnosis session or something.

1148
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:13,440
Speaker 3: I don't know if you are, You're being pulled back

1149
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 3: from our hypnosis session, and then that it's our episode

1150
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 3: on hypnosis and it's coming to an end to Ben's boy.

1151
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 3: You can find us all over the internet if you wish.

1152
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:26,200
Speaker 3: We are conspiracy stuff on YouTube, x nay, Twitter. I'm

1153
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 3: stop saying that eventually, I just say hate X so

1154
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 3: much and also Facebook and we are a conspiracy stuff

1155
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:34,040
Speaker 3: show on Instagram and TikTok.

1156
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 2: Hey, do you want to call us? Our number is

1157
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 2: one eight three three std WYTK. Go ahead and take

1158
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 2: a second. Put that as a contact in your phone

1159
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:46,480
Speaker 2: just in case it calls you back. If you call it,

1160
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 2: you're gonna get three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname,

1161
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 2: and say whatever you'd like. Just please let us know

1162
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 2: if you give us permission to use your voice end

1163
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 2: message on the air. If you don't want to do that,

1164
01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 2: why not send us an email?

1165
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:01,640
Speaker 1: We read everyone we get. Send us your pictures, send

1166
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:04,480
Speaker 1: us your links, take us deep into the rabbit hole.

1167
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 1: We'll do the rest. Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1168
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:28,800
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production

1169
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1170
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.