WEBVTT - The Wrong Man [5] 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:05.840 The Butcher of Mons is released weekly absolutely free, but 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.000 you can binge the entire season now with iHeart True 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:13.160 Crime Plus exclusively on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:16.680 free listening and exclusive bonus episodes. So head to Apple 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:25.360 Podcasts search iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.280 The views and opinions expressing this podcast are solely those 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:33.520 of the podcast's author or individuals participating in the podcast, 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:37.280 and do not represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, or 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:41.479 their employees. This podcast also contains subject matter which may 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.880 not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:56.400 Madame Monsieur moncis who I'm Ladies and gentlemen. Good evening 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.680 in Mont's The investigation of the serial killer could be 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:02.600 about to reach a conclusion. After a warrant was served 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:05.440 today in the region of Mons, a suspect was arrested 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:08.360 and is being interrogated at the Justice Palace by the 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:12.600 investigating judge in charge of the investigation. For the moment, 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:18.000 authorities are refusing to confirm the arrest. Information is slowly 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:21.720 filtering through and we know that following the identification of 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.400 one of the victims of The Butcher of Mons, things 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.880 seem to be moving fast. The prosecutor remains very discreet. 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:31.720 This morning, he refused to divulge the name of the 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:32.600 victim in question. 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:46.160 A carefully mysteriously covetu de. 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:47.880 Disappearance of a woman from mont. 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:52.120 The condition of the victims was sickening. 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:54.920 And the question remains, where is the killer? 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:10.560 From Tenderfoot TV and iHeart Podcasts, I'm Your Host Matt 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:14.680 Graves and This is le manstre Season two. The Butcher 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:22.760 of Moss April twenty fourth, nineteen ninety seven, The public 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.480 breathed a collective sigh of relief when a man named 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:28.600 Leopold Bogart was arrested in charge with the murder of 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:32.560 his girlfriend Natalie Godard, the latest victim of the Butcher 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:36.320 of Moss, who disappeared roughly a month earlier. You'll recall 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.920 from episode two that on the day Natali disappeared, she 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:42.800 and a group of friends attended a peaceful protest in 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:45.600 Moss called the White March for victims of the du 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.600 True Affair. After the march, she and her boyfriend Leopold 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.800 went partying with friends, and Natalie was last seen in 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:56.720 front of a fast food restaurant a week after her disappearance. 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.080 Her torso was found on the side of a road 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:02.560 named the Path of Worry. Her head and other body 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:06.200 parts were found off of Dump Road and Saint Semforian Street. 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:10.440 Natalie was never reported missing, not even by Leopold, which 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:14.680 certainly raised suspicions. When she turned up murdered. After her disappearance, 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.959 police were unable to locate Leopold, further raising their suspicions 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:22.520 about his involvement. But there was a reason that Leopold 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:28.040 was hard to locate. Nicknamed Legiton or the Gypsy, Leopold 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:31.080 came from a family of traveling people, often referred to 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:35.560 as gypsies. It was a rough life full of internessing, quarrels, 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:38.680 and violence. In the same year as his arrest, it 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.480 was reported that his brother was murdered by his cousin 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:45.400 with a shotgun in a deadly dispute. Leopold was known 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:47.920 as a tough guy who lived off the grid, so 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.680 it's not surprising that police had a hard time tracking 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.600 him down. They suspected him of being on the run 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:57.520 since Natalie's disappearance, and when finally they caught up to him, 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:01.400 police found several incriminating elements, including blood sparrow on some 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.800 of his clothes. Here's the Attorney General from the time, 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.920 Claude Michaud. 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:11.440 Just after the disappearance of Natalie Goddart. We thought that 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.600 he had fled. We understood that he had shaved his mustache, 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.360 and we believed that he'd burned the clothes of Natalie. 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:20.040 There were a series of elements that led the police 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:24.040 and the investigating judge with good reason to suspect his involvement. 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:29.640 I spoke with a lawyer who represented Leopold Bogart at 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:32.880 the time. Her name is Celine Paris and she's still 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:37.440 practicing in Mars. 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:39.800 In the spring of nineteen ninety seven, the city of 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:43.040 Mons was shocked and haunted about a series of absolutely 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:50.280 macabre discoveries. They discovered trash bags full of dismembered female body. 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:55.040 Parts of Montchevsim White. 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:57.200 Yes, it was some time in March or April. I 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.520 had been a lawyer for only six months, and one 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.120 evening a client I had previously defended for a trivial 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:05.880 offense called me from the prison and said Maco and 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:09.159 they showed me a picture of my girlfriend and asked 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.640 me where I hid her head. And at that point 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.280 I understood right away why he'd been arrested, and then 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:15.400 I went to see him in prison. 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.400 I asked her if she knows why Leopold suddenly left 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:22.880 Moss right after Natalie's disappearance and what led police to 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:25.560 suspect him. He got into some. 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:27.719 Sort of fight that night or the day after. It 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:29.960 was after that that he decided to return to his family. 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:32.479 They found this suspicious, and also the fact that before 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:34.560 going back to his family, he had freshened up a bit, 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:38.920 He had a shave and got a haircut, and these 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.120 elements were apparently what prompted the investigating judge to order 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:44.280 the arrest of my client. But you have to take 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.039 into consideration that they didn't have any other leads and 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.159 were desperate, which precipitated the arrest. 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.479 Leopold maintained his innocence, stating that he had nothing to 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:58.240 do as Natalis's disappearance or murder. He cleimed the blood 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:00.799 found on his clothing was from a fight, and later 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.120 testing proved that it wasn't a match with any of 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:07.680 the identified victims. Additional investigations failed to link Leopold to 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:11.400 the crimes, with a negative blood test and no further evidence. 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.320 Police became convinced that he wasn't their man. Leopold was 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.440 released two weeks after his arrest. I'm innocent. 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:20.960 How does it fuse to be free? 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.200 Good because they put an innocent guy in prison? 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:26.239 Are you disgusted with Of course? 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:26.599 Yes? 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:28.920 Why did they. 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:29.880 Come out to see anything else? 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:31.120 I want to go back to my family. 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:34.760 They didn't have any proof again for you, excuse. 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:40.240 Me, I'm going home. I'm leaving. The public's brief sigh 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:43.560 of relief was over and the terror came flooding back. 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.240 Some of the body parts of the three identified victims 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:50.360 hadn't been found, and there was a sense of uneasiness 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.040 knowing that there were likely more remains discarded around mass 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:59.360 The pace of almost daily developments slowed, the tension remained high. 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.320 These continued searching on the ground and from the air. 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:09.000 Then news of a new connection broke. 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.120 Dinu Vodona feldudipas. 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.400 New information regarding the affair of the butcher of Monts, 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.920 who likely murdered a fourth victim. A torso that was 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.600 found in the region of Valenciennes in France in January 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:28.240 nineteen ninety six was identified by French investigators. 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:34.600 It was January twenty first, nineteen ninety six, six months 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:37.040 before any of the victims of the Butcher of Mass 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:42.000 were reported missing, a hiker made a gruesome discovery along 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.440 the banks of the Escot River in France, thirty miles 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:49.320 downriver from Moss. French police attended the scene to find 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:52.840 a dismembered pelvis. It had been cut at the belly 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.280 and just above the knees. It was the pelvis and 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:00.120 midsection of a female body, including the upper parts of 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.400 Authorities had no idea who the victim was, and without 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.160 a pattern of additional murders to link this crime to, 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:09.680 it would take more than one and a half years 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:13.120 to identify the victim. After trash bags full of body 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.760 parts started appearing in Moss in nineteen ninety seven, police 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.880 aggressively followed up on all unresolved missing persons cases, as 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.680 well as any other discoveries of unidentified remains in southern 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:29.080 Belgium and northern France. By comparing DNA extracted from the 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.880 pelvis found in France with genetic material from family members 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:36.160 of missing persons, it was established that the victim was 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:40.080 Carmelina Rousseau, a forty two year old mother of three 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:49.360 from mass She had been reported missing shortly after her 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:53.320 disappearance the previous year, but her case had remained unsolved. 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:56.400 Her family and friends couldn't think of any reason at 0:08:56.400 --> 0:09:04.880 all why someone would want to hurt her. Carmelina Rousseau 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:09.480 was originally from France. After meeting her husband, the couple 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.119 moved to Moss in Belgium and started a family. Carmelina 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:15.560 was devoted to her loved ones, and when she moved 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.280 to Belgium, her parents followed her to be closer to 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:22.960 their three grandchildren. Sadly, after her husband passed away, she 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.440 found herself a widow, raising three children and taking care 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.800 of aging parents. Life was difficult, and she did what 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.640 she could to get by living in social housing and 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:36.160 working in various small jobs to make ends meet. By 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:40.160 January nineteen ninety six, her son found himself serving time 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:46.400 at a prison in Moss. On January fourth, Carmelina went 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:52.320 to visit him. Afterward, she made her way to a supermarket, 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:56.720 following an eastward route that took her through the city 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.800 and passed the Central train station Round zero for the 0:09:59.920 --> 0:10:04.680 US other disappearances, The last sighting of Carmelina Rousseau was 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.160 that evening January fourth, at around six pm at a 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:12.040 supermarket less than three miles from the train station. She 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:16.760 was never seen alive again. I spoke with the only 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:21.160 remaining lawyer representing a civil party in this affair. His 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.000 name is Frank di Cippoli, and he represents the Rousseau family. 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:28.439 Frank started off by reminding me, or maybe I should 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:32.120 say warning me, that I'm investigating a case that's still active. 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:38.080 So you are making a podcast about an affair that 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.840 isn't even yet finished. It's not a cold case because 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:47.240 the investigation is still open, so it's particular you're actually 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:48.400 within that investigation. 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:55.560 Belgium and most countries in Central Europe, for that matter, haven't, 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:59.640 for the most part, experienced the phenomenon of active investigation 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:02.920 pod casts. It would be an understatement to say that 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:06.880 authorities don't welcome such initiatives. But Frank is a nice guy, 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:09.280 and as a lawyer, I think he takes a position 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:12.800 that more scrutiny is a good thing. He explained how 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:17.280 he became involved in the case Javet Cleonqui. 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:23.080 I had a client who was in the prison of Monts, 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:27.640 who was actually the son of Carmelina Russo. And it 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:32.920 was after investigators had identified Carmelina Russo after finding part 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:40.120 of her body. They had suspicions in the beginning about 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.280 her son, who was in prison, and he was in 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:51.520 prison for crimes involving violence, and so investigators thought maybe 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:55.320 he had something to do with her murder. And at 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:58.280 the time, they thought her death had happened at a 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.400 time when her son wasn't in prison. So they came 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.160 to the prison and while the problem is that they 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:08.720 didn't pull any punches, they were very direct and they 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.400 showed the sun pictures of his mother, pictures of his 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.839 mother's couldaver and he learned about the death of his 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:20.920 mother while he was in prison. It was actually then 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.520 that he learned that his mother was dead and that 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:25.960 she'd actually been dismembered. 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:28.040 On prison. 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.480 And on top of that, he felt right away that 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.719 he was being treated as a suspect, and so then 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.880 he just went crazy. He ransacked his entire cell. I mean, 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:43.840 the guards had to come in and suppress him, and 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.480 then they realized quite quickly that he didn't have anything 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:49.600 to do with the murder. And then he called me. 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:53.360 He called me to explain all of this, and because 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.480 he was now facing disciplinary measures because he'd rebelled so 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.480 aggressively when they gave him the news, and that could 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:05.240 have consequences on his sentence. And he explained all of 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:07.120 this to me, and that's how I got involved with 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.160 this whole affair. It wasn't like the usual case where 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.040 a family comes to see you because there's an investigation 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:17.120 about the death of someone close. No, we were directly 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.640 in the heat of the action via someone who was 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.440 immediately considered as a suspect and then it was quickly 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.560 realized that he was actually a victim. 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:30.199 Frank Gisippole went on to represent the children of Carmelina 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:33.560 Rousseau in the butcher of Man's case, ensuring their mother's 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:37.320 murder gets the attention it deserves. Frank is supportive of 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.840 our work, but very conscious of something sacrisanct in Belgian 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.680 law called les secret instruction, meaning that he's not allowed 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.920 to share the case file or any confidential information related 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.400 to the case. As the last remaining lawyer representing a 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.240 civil party, he plays an important role in this affair. 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:58.079 For example, if new evidence is discovered, he can request 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.280 additional duties of the investigating Jim, who can then order 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:05.320 police to carry out further investigations. In short, this means 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:07.880 that Frank could act as a direct line between our 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:30.920 work and Belgian authorities. It's believed that Carmeline Russeau was 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.960 the first victim of the butcher of Monts. It wasn't 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.640 until after three other victims were discovered and identified that 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.240 police were able to link her murder to this case. 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:44.080 Just like the other victims, Carmelin Ne Russeau was known 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:47.960 to frequent establishments around the central train station, including the 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:54.280 hotel and bar Le Metropol. The investigative journalist Frederic Laure explains. 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.360 Carmelin Russeau is probably the first victim of the passeo 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:03.360 of montm She had a quite normal life, you know, 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:09.280 and she even worked in an insurance company before disappearing. 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:15.840 She didn't have mental and social problems like the others. 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:21.600 She had a main job, she had her family, a 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:25.600 place to live, and apart from that, she had a 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:32.080 side job. She was selling lagerie in different places around 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:37.080 the mont station, especially in the bars of the night 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.840 close to the station of Monts. You know those places 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:45.680 where people, especially men of course go there to meet 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:54.480 girls and especially prostituted. And we also know that she 0:15:54.600 --> 0:16:00.240 used to go to the Hotel Metropol and then there 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:05.320 she met different people, but also some girls to sell 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:10.960 them a laxurie. So now we have four victim and 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:15.040 we are sure that they have one thing in common. 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:19.720 They all spend time in the area of the station 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:25.239 and they wear old customers of the Ottel Metropoli. 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:29.080 Carmelina's case is similar to the other victims in many ways, 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:32.760 but there's a distinct difference. Her remains were found nearly 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:36.720 thirty miles away from Mons, in neighboring France. You recall 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:39.360 from the last episode that I visited various sites in 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.760 Mons where victims body parts were discovered. So we just 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:47.480 drove up to this bridge. We're on a street that's 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.680 called Worry Way, Shmann, Did I get you to Worry Street? 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.400 And it's right over a river that's called the River 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:58.560 of Hate. So what you have here is we're behind 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.600 the train station, not very far. And if I'm on 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:04.560 this bridge, and if I look down about two hundred 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:06.840 meters in front of me, I see where the trunk 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.960 of a body was found. In July of nineteen ninety six, 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:16.920 turned out to be Bone. And then if I turn 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:19.080 around and look a little bit to my left, I 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.400 can see where the trunk of another body was discovered. 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:25.800 This was on the twenty fourth of March, and this 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:31.120 was Natari Goda. And Morgan has an interesting theory that 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.600 he thinks that all of the big body parts were 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:38.600 dropped here into this river that I'm looking at right now, 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:41.679 And I can see that the river is slightly flowing 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:46.320 in the direction that I'm looking, which is away from 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:49.640 Mons and towards France, where the trunk of the body 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:54.280 of Carmelina Russo was found. So I'm standing in the 0:17:54.280 --> 0:18:00.159 place where the killer certainly always came to dispose of 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:06.120 the larger body parts of the victims. Given where Carmelina 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:09.560 Rousseau's torso is found down river, it's highly likely that 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.119 it was dumped into the water here in Moss and 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.399 that it flowed down river towards France. Water levels are 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:18.879 higher in January compared to July when Martin Bone's torso 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:21.760 got stuck in an eddy nearby, so it would make 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.320 sense that the disposal of Carmelina's torso in January made 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:28.000 its way further down the river like most of the 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.760 other victims. Her head has still never been found to 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:34.359 this day. It's horrifying to think that there are likely 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:38.280 several body parts, including the heads, of victims, hidden somewhere 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:43.399 here near to where I'm standing right now, or even worse, 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:47.640 being kept as trophies by a twisted serial killer. There's 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.439 something particular about Carmelina's remains that makes her case different 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:56.160 from other victims. This is graphic material, so listener discretion 0:18:56.320 --> 0:19:00.400 is advised. The torsos and body parts of the three 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.520 later victims were cut with relative precision. Cuts were made 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.800 along key articulations, which would have minimized blood loss and contamination. 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:13.399 In fact, police initially focused their suspect profile on someone 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:18.520 with experience in domains like surgery or butchery. However, Carmelina 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.800 Rousseau's torso was severed at the level of her navel. 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.760 This would have created a gruesome mess for whoever carried 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:29.560 it out. Amputating a torso at the navel would cause 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.720 significant loss of bodily fluid and probable discharge of organs. 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:37.480 None of the killer's subsequent victims were dismembered this way. 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.359 Based on the date of her disappearance, we believe that 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:45.200 Carmelina was the butcher of Moss's first known victim. It's 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.119 probable that he learned from her abduction and murder and 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:51.920 adjusted his method of dismemberment and disposal of future victims. 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:56.879 I was able to speak with a renowned Belgian profiler, 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:01.480 doctor Danielle Zuguer, who actually trained Roy Hazelwood, one of 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:05.399 the FBI's pioneers in behavioral analysis. I asked you about 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.320 the significance of a serial killer's first murder. 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:11.719 So we can learn a lot with the first crime, 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:18.400 because the first crime occurs often near a comfort zone, 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:23.320 so you can define already an area where you could 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:29.720 find a perpetrator. Of course, his modest operandi, which will 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:33.280 change with the time, because he will make some progress 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:37.800 each time he's committing a crime. He will learn from 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:42.159 his errors, so he will make some progress too, so 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:45.359 it gets more complicated to find him. This is why 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:48.840 the first crime is so interesting and important for investigation. 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:53.800 With the experience, you know, criminals are like us. With experience, 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:56.439 we get better at what we do, so it's the 0:20:56.480 --> 0:21:00.440 same for them. This is why you know the coach 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:03.560 can be perhaps a bit difficult for the first crime 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:08.080 or the control of the victim or the acting out 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:11.399 of the fantasy is not quite the way he would 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:15.200 like it to be, and also the disposal of the body. 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:20.200 He will get better with the other crimes. And the 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:24.400 first crime also shows if you have a very organized 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:29.040 offender or disorganized one. And it's important because it gives 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:33.560 you clues about who he is, how he's functioning, where 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:37.640 perhaps you can find him. And the more organized he is, 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:41.200 the more distance is willing to go to find victim. 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:44.679 There can be a trigger or not. When there is 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.639 no trigger, it means that you know fantasy has become 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:52.960 so loaded that it needs to come out. But there 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:59.880 can be a trigger, and it can be a disappointment, frustration, anger, revert, 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.560 all kinds of motives. Really, it's the first time where 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:10.680 he's acting out his fantasy, so you can understand what 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:13.600 is his fantasy. Of course you can understand it with 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:20.520 the later crimes too, but sometimes make some mistakes. But yeah, 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:25.239 first crimes are always very important because they give you 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:27.000 the maximum of clues. 0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:32.440 Doctor Zuker's point about early mistakes is interesting. Indeed, we 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:35.679 believe that Carmelina Rousso was his first victim, but was 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:39.800 she his first attempt. It's relatively common for serial killers 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:43.680 early efforts to be unsuccessful. A number of infamous monsters 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.560 like Ted Bundy or David Berkowitz aka the Son of Sam, 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:51.520 or Gary Ridgeway aka the Green River Killer, who failed 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:54.280 at their first attempts. We believe that there are likely 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:56.840 other women who may have had close calls with the 0:22:56.840 --> 0:22:59.919 Butcher of Moss, perhaps without even knowing how close they 0:22:59.920 --> 0:23:03.400 came to meeting similar fates as the other victims. As 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:06.040 we attempt to narrow down a profile of the perpetrator, 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:09.639 I spoke with the investigative journalist Frederick Law about what 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:12.520 he thinks we can assume about the killer at this point. 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:16.840 Based on what we know now, I think we can 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:21.720 drew several assumptions about the killer. First of all, we 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:26.920 think that he was living and operating in Monts. If 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:30.720 you think about it, it made no sense kill someone 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:35.760 outside the city and then dismember them, and then to 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:41.640 drive into Monts and dumb them. A second assumption is 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:47.800 that we firmly believe that he had a car, because 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:54.199 if you visit the different sites where the bodies were found, 0:23:54.720 --> 0:24:00.280 you immediately understand that he needed a car. And then 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:05.080 a third assumption is we believe finally that he must 0:24:05.440 --> 0:24:11.840 frequent the area around the railway station, and he probably 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:15.520 knew all the victims. They had to know him a 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:20.000 little bit at least. Remember the pack of cigarettes at 0:24:20.119 --> 0:24:26.320 Jacqueline's house. Her sister Georgette was firmly convinced that it 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:32.800 belongs to the perpetrator. Also, Natalie was finally seen just 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:37.440 in front of the train station, and if someone had 0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:41.520 taken her by force, it would have been noticed. If 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:45.479 we look at all of these assumptions, it narrows the 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:48.760 profile of the perpetrator. 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:51.600 You recall from the last episode that we tracked down 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:54.520 a woman who were calling Giselle. We confirm that she 0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:57.760 was contacted by police because her DNA was a possible 0:24:57.840 --> 0:25:00.679 match with an unknown DNA profile that was found at 0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:03.840 one of the dumb sites. The unknown profile was from 0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:06.280 a strand of hair found in one of the fifteen 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:09.800 trash bags. Giselle told us that in nineteen ninety six 0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:12.679 she was living with a community of traveling people on 0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:16.120 the outskirts of Moss. Police took a DNA sample from 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:18.920 her in twenty twenty three in an attempt to validate 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:21.680 the match, but she never heard back from them. Our 0:25:21.720 --> 0:25:24.080 investigative team has been trying to find out if the 0:25:24.119 --> 0:25:26.679 testing was ever carried out and if so, what the 0:25:26.720 --> 0:25:30.879 result was. Unfortunately, the only information that we received is 0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:34.920 that the related case details are all confidential. Like Giselle, 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:39.000 the suspect who was arrested and subsequently released, Leopold Bogart 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:42.040 also hails from a family of traveling people. It's an 0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:45.520 interesting possible connection. But is it simply a coincidence or 0:25:45.520 --> 0:25:48.880 something more. I asked Giselle if she knew or had 0:25:48.960 --> 0:25:52.040 any connection to Leopold Bogart, but she said she knew 0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:56.199 nothing about him. We investigated further and learned that Leopold's 0:25:56.200 --> 0:25:59.000 traveling community was from a different part of the country 0:25:59.040 --> 0:26:02.040 than the community that Giselle was with in nineteen ninety six. 0:26:02.640 --> 0:26:05.600 They appeared to have nothing in common, but through another 0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:09.520 improbable coincidence, I learned that Giselle had once been represented 0:26:09.560 --> 0:26:12.800 by the same lawyer as Leopold Bogart for an entirely 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:16.000 unrelated matter. As you heard at the top of the episode, 0:26:16.119 --> 0:26:19.800 I tracked down this attorney, named Celene Paris. Towards the 0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:23.360 end of that interview, I asked her about Giselle and Leopold. 0:26:23.480 --> 0:26:26.800 She was also surprised by this coincidence, but didn't remember 0:26:26.800 --> 0:26:29.960 representing Giselle as it was several years ago. She did 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:31.959 say that she could look into it, but only at 0:26:31.960 --> 0:26:34.359