WEBVTT - Charles Scudder & Joseph Odom 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.400 You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.160 Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.080 are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.560 and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.280 This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.160 for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.440 Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rascha Peccarero 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:35.040 and I'm Yvett Gentilay, and today we're talking about the 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:39.200 murders of Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom, which is also 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:43.080 known as the Corpsewood Manner Murders. And you guys, this 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:47.599 one really has it all. Satanism, sex parties, and a 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:49.320 creepy mansion in the woods. 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:50.720 It sure does. 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:55.080 But it's also about two people trying to break free 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:58.880 from a society that did not accept them, and they 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.960 ended up six at least for a little while, until 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:06.119 that society came for them and did them in. 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:10.080 Listeners familiar with the Satanic Panic Scare of the nineteen 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:13.560 eighties might be familiar with this case, which took place 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:16.200 in the Deep South. No less, and here is an 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:20.280 interesting fact. Bobby Lee Cook, a famous lawyer who was 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.640 involved with the Atlanta child murders and the case that 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:26.880 inspired Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, played 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.520 a part here. He represented the sons of one of 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:35.479 the murder victims in the estate dispute that followed the murders. 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:38.680 And that was the same lawyer that inspired the TV 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:42.520 show Mattlocke that ran in the nineteen eighties and the 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:49.360 nineteen nineties. Anyhow, today we are incredibly excited to welcome 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:53.160 podcaster B. T. Harmon, who has also written about this 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:57.520 case for Atlanta Magazine. I am incredibly honored to dig 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:01.240 deep into the story of Charles Scudder and Joseph Odin 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.960 with BT today. But first our producer Trevor is going 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:06.560 to take us through today's case. 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:13.880 They became not necessarily the classical interpretation of devil worshipers 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:20.639 quote Satanists. They became basically earth worshiping people. Their architectural 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.440 style of their home, their patterns for living, the total 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:27.160 dependence on the earth and its source of power, their 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:32.040 total dependence on their own food sources, their total independence 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:35.840 from all embarrassed types of lifestyles. 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.520 Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom were a couple who were 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:44.000 murdered in their home in Treon, Georgia in nineteen eighty two. 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:49.200 Charles and Joseph had moved to Chattooga County, Georgia, from Chicago, 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:54.440 where Charles taught for many years at Loyola University. Charles 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.040 was a lover of science, art, drama, and music, and 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:02.320 considered himself extremely counter cultural. He kept a pet monkey, 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:06.320 dyed his hair unusual colors, and heavily identified with the 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:10.360 Adams family. Charles was also publicly a member of the 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.600 Church of Satan, and would even drive into town in 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:16.960 a jeep that he had painted with pentagrams. The Church 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:20.200 of Satan supported the notion that anything goes between two 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.160 consenting adults, and it was a place where he found 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.560 acceptance in a time when mainstream American society didn't accept 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:32.720 gay people. In the late nineteen seventies, Charles and Joseph Odam, 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:37.120 then his live in housekeeper, decided to leave Chicago on 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.640 a plot in rural Georgia. They cleared the land, laid 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.680 the bricks and insalled a water pumping system for what 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:48.040 they would call Corpsewood manor their dream house, on forty 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.600 five acres. The home included a library with books on 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.760 the occult human skulls and a pink gargoyle over the 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.640 front entrance. There were also stained glass windows that Charles 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.440 had made himself, and on the third floor of this 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.480 building was a space they called the Pink Room, and 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:07.840 that's where the couple would entertain guests. The walls were 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:12.480 decorated with candles, whips, chains, and even a log book 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:18.320 listing guest sexual predilections. And in nearby Treon, Georgia, rumors 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:23.200 surrounded these quote homosexual devil worshipers, as they were sometimes called, 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:26.520 but people would still visit just to see the place, 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:30.359 and Charles would give visitors homemade wine and let people 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.640 hunt on their property. One of those visitors was a 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:38.720 troubled teenager named Kenneth Avery Brock. Avery, as he was known, 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:42.040 had had a number of alleged sexual encounters with Charles Scudder, 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:46.760 and he believed that Charles and Joseph were millionaires. As 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.839 it turns out, this was not true, but on the 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.719 night of December twelfth, nineteen eighty two, Charles and Joseph 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.360 were throwing a party. Avery Brock came that night bringing 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.800 his friend to Tony West. Together, Avery and Tony hatched 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.240 a plan to rob their hosts. In the pink room, 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.359 Charles served their guest homemade wine while Joseph stayed in 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:11.279 the main house to clean up after dinner. That's when 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.200 Avery stepped out and returned with a rifle, and he 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:18.760 pointed it directly at Charles. Then Avery bound and gagged 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:22.400 Charles with a bedsheet. Avery then went to the main house, 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:24.880 where he found Joseph in the kitchen and shot him 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:29.080 four times. He also killed the couple's two dogs. The 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:32.039 killers then dragged Charles into the house, where they ripped 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:34.279 off his gag and asked him where the money was. 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:39.440 Then they shot and killed Charles. Avery and Tony then 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:43.039 ransacked the house, but left with only a handful of 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.440 coins and a few knick knacks. The pair were later 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.920 arrested and both were eventually sentenced to life in prison. 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:53.560 The trial and surrounding coverage of the murders played on 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:57.159 fears that were widespread at the time, both about Satanism 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:02.880 and about homosexuality. Years later, the abandoned Corpsewood Manor was 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:07.800 vandalized and burned to the ground. Today, only ruins remain 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:12.200 of the once elegant structure. In rural North Georgia. And 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:16.080 so who were Charles Scudder and Joseph odom and how 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.320 does their story reflect the dangers of living through a 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:24.560 period of American history rife with paranoia, homophobia, and violence. 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:33.320 Oh looha everyone, I am so excited to welcome our 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:37.880 guest for today's episode. So joining us to discuss the 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:41.920 murder of Charles Scudder and Joseph odom Or. 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:44.160 As many of you know, this is. 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:49.120 Also called the Corpsewood Murders is writer B. T. 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:49.600 Harmon. 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:55.039 BT has written at length about this case for Atlanta Magazine, 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.080 and he is also the host of the true crime 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:03.119 historical podcast Catolic. He joins us, now, welcome at Komo 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:05.600 may to Facing EVILBT. 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:07.520 Thank you, it's good to be here. 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:08.560 We are so. 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.280 Honored to have you here, and we're just going to 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:13.320 dive right in. My sister and I of course have 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.280 done a deep dive. We know who you are, but 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:18.560 we want our listeners to know more about you. So 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:21.280 if you could tell us a little bit about your history, 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:26.400 particularly with true crime, and what brought you to historical 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:26.960 true crime. 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:28.000 Yeah. 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:31.000 So, I'm forty one years old, live in Atlanta, Georgia. 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.440 I grew up in a small town in Alabama called 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.640 Florence and had a corporate job for a while, and 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.200 then about six or seven years ago, launched out on 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:41.920 my own to start a new career. So got into 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:45.160 kind of creative consulting, working with small businesses, and in 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:48.120 the midst of that, decided to launch two podcasts. So 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:50.480 my first podcast was called Blue Baby's Pink. It's sort 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:54.720 of my personal coming out story and very memoir esque. 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:59.000 And then my second podcast was completely different, a total 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.840 one to eighty. We went to from a personal story 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:06.000 of faith and sexuality to true crime and history. And 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:09.760 so I launched the podcast called cat Lick in twenty nineteen, 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.640 and it covers a very unique span of time in 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:17.040 Atlantis history between nineteen eleven and nineteen fifteen and four 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:20.240 separate incidences that were playing out. All four really had 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.480 sort of an angle of racism, racial terror, and the 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:27.440 stories were just so unbelievably sensational. It was like something 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.080 out of Hollywood, and all the newspapers in Atlanta were 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:34.079 covering them simultaneously and not really That podcast was a 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:37.120 result of about five years of very in depth research, 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:41.120 getting very nitty gritty on the historical details, but I'm 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:42.600 really proud of it and how it turned out. 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:47.240 Wow, that's quite a transition, right to go into true crime. 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:48.720 Can I just ask you a question, how did you 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:50.280 come up with the name cat lick? 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:51.040 Yeah? 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.200 So I just love a good, clever, creative name. And 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:56.560 I discovered this word cat lick. It sort of has 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:00.160 like an English British route and it's kind of a 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:03.319 slang word for like imagine like a mom tells her child, Hey, 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.560 go go wash up, and he comes back and he 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:07.480 just sort of he didn't really wash, He just sort 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:09.480 of dusted himself off, and she says. 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:10.480 No, that's just a cat lick. 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:12.120 It's like a cat lick do you write you know, 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:13.559 you didn't fully wash. 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:15.520 And so to me it was it was sort of a. 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:19.679 Really great proxy for the way this nation has handled 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:20.960 a lot of race issues. 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:21.280 Right. 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:23.520 Yes, we've we'd like to think that we've done a 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:26.160 thorough washing, but when you really get down to it, 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:27.080 we really haven't. 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:28.280 And it's just a little cat lick. 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:30.480 And it has the letters at L right in the 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:32.800 middle of the word catlick, which was you know, I 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:33.960 just thought that was really cool. 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.120 So to me, it was just it was it was 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:36.760 the right name. 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:39.800 Yeah, I couldn't agree more. How clever is that on 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:43.520 every level? You know, let's just jump right into it. 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:46.600 Can you tell us when you first heard about the 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:47.640 Corpse Wood murders. 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:50.679 Yeah, so it was actually in the midst of producing Catlic. 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.200 I was releasing weekly episodes and I got an Instagram 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.360 message from a fan who was listening to catlic and. 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:58.319 He said, hey, your next podcast should be about the Corpse. 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.240 Would Manner murders. And id ever heard of that before? So, 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:03.440 of course, did what we all do. I googled it 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.360 and boy, that was a whole rabbit hole and I 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:08.719 probably spent I don't know, two or three hours just 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:11.480 learning about that case. And it took place, you know, 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:14.559 maybe forty maybe sixty miles north of where I live 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.560 here in Atlanta, happened in the seventies and eighties, And 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.920 so once I discovered that that was on my radar 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:22.280 and I thought, boy, this is a this is a 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:24.440 fascinating story on a lot of levels. 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.320 I want to know so much more, bt so much more, 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.840 like I mean, especially not having heard about it and 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:32.120 then hearing about it from a fan. 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.880 Do you know that area? And did it surprise you? 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:40.520 That this type of thing or horrific murder would happen 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.360 in that rural area in Georgia. 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.880 Yeah, so the learn that took place. It's a county 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.000 called Chattooga County. Like I said, it's about an hour 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.560 hour and a half drive north of Atlanta. Of course, 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:56.280 I'm in Atlanta for over a decade now. Love the city, progressive, global, 0:10:56.320 --> 0:11:01.440 big airport, a lot of just great arts and culture scene. Yeah, diversity, 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:03.800 it's great. But you know, like a lot of states, 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:05.719 once you get you know, a ways outside of the 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.840 big city, things get very rural very quickly. And I listened. 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:10.839 I grew up in a small town. I love small 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:14.360 town USA. I think it's fantastic, and my heart is 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:16.960 still there in some ways. But yeah, Chatooga County. The 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.480 city is called Tryon, which is where these gentlemen lived. Yeah, 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:23.080 extremely rural. And when I went there, you know, because 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:25.079 again the whole story took place in the late seventies, 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.679 so this was we just had the fortieth anniversary of 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.079 the murders, right, And so when I went there, I 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:35.000 was I was just shocked at how rural it still was, right. 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:37.520 I mean forty years later, right, right, And something I. 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.640 Can't imagine what this area was like, you know, forty 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:43.360 years ago, because even today, I mean it's, you know, 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:48.000 a beautiful area, but just impossibly different from Atlanta in 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:49.360 so many ways. 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:54.160 I would love to know what you personally thought, especially 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:58.240 on your journey and going to try on and just 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:02.680 seeing it for yourself. Did you feel like vibes? Was 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:03.400 it haunted? 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.480 What were your first instincts and feelings when you were there? 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:09.599 Yeah, So one of the days I was there was 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:11.559 the middle of the summer. It literally was one hundred 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:13.480 and one hundred and three degrees that day, so just 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:16.800 one of these sweltering southern hot days that you know, 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.080 grow up in Alabama very familiar with. But yeah, visiting 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:22.120 that area obviously, I wanted to get a feel for 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:24.400 what's it like now? And it was really interesting. 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:24.600 You know. 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:26.640 I had lunch at one of the few little cafes 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.000 in town, and my waitress was maybe in her twenties, 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:30.480 and I just said, you know, hey, have you ever 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.800 heard of the Corpsewood Manor Murders? And her eyes, you know, 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:35.840 they got real big, and she said, oh, yeah, that's over, 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.240 that's over on Devil Worshippers Mountain. And you know, my 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:40.080 all of high school, our friends would go up there, 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:42.480 and one of my friends she stole a brick, and 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:44.360 you know, if you steal a brick from the ruins, 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.000 you're cursed. And sure enough her her parents were in 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.360 a car wreck. So yeah, there was that kind of energy. 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:51.040 And she told me, she's like, if you go up there, 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:53.720 bring a baseball bat. And so, you know, it's just 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:54.520 it's small town. 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:55.200 It's folklore. 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.559 At this point, those stories are, you know, etched in 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:00.360 the minds of everyone in that county. And I got 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:02.400 in my car and I drove up Mountain View Road. 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:06.000 I mean, up this winding gravel road. All the houses 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.400 have sort of these big, sort of impending fences and gates, 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.480 and you know, rebel flags are flying and don't tread 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.600 on me flags, and so, I mean it did have 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:17.920 sort of this ominousness about it. And I got up 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:22.839 there and it was remarkably creepy. I mean, I feel 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:23.360 like that's. 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.160 So cliche to say, and obviously there's a psychology thing. 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.120 Going on there in my head, but yeah, it just 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.559 had this it sort of had a heaviness about it. 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.840 And the site is now privately owned and you technically 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.280 aren't supposed to go there, but lots of people still 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:39.800 go up there and trapes around the property and go 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.360 through the ruins. The house has collapsed. It was burned 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.800 shortly after the whole incident happened. Arson has set fire 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.200 to it, so it is just a very haunted ruins. 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.280 Now it's bricks. There's the old arch, one of the 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.400 main arches from the gazebo that was there, overgrown with 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:57.640 vines and so it's just dense woods. But yeah, it 0:13:57.960 --> 0:13:59.400 definitely has that energy to it. 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:25.400 Do you think that Charles was, you know, into Satanic 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:27.520 stuff or do you think he was just an atheist 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.160 and just you know, he and Joseph were just living 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:33.760 their lives doing you know, the things that they enjoyed doing. 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:36.480 What do you think about that? Because it's like we create, 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:39.520 you know, we create stuff in our head right of 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.040 what we think people are doing, but are they actually 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:43.560 doing that stuff? 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:44.880 Yeah? 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:46.600 So this is where I again, I am not an 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:48.760 expert on the Church of Satan. I grew up my 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:50.840 dad was a Southern Baptist pastor, so you know, I 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:53.720 don't have expertise here, but based off my research. 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:56.359 Me either yeah, right, not like either. 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.000 When the Church of Satan started, It wasn't they weren't 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:04.240 committing duplicitous acts and you know, sacrificing animals. It's almost 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:06.360 like a troll job, right, It's like for people who 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.200 are atheists, this is a great way to kind of 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.840 troll people of faith. So Charles Scudder was a he 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.200 was a counterculture guy. I mean he I think I 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:16.920 read at one point he had pink hair. 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:18.760 I believe I read. 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:20.000 And you have to fact check me. I think he 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:21.880 had a pet monkey at one time. 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.720 So yeah, that's it. 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:27.600 And so I kind of viewed his involvement with the 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:29.720 Church of Satan is like it was just another way 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:31.920 to kind of be different. And you know, but he 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.240 did the symbology. He definitely loved you know, when he 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:37.400 built the Big Mannor there were statues of Baphomet, and 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.400 there were stained glass windows with pentagrams, and of course 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:43.720 there was this towering pink gargoyle over the main doorway. 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:45.480 And so I've seen the photos. 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.120 Yeah, yeah, right, so you know they definitely I mean, 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.560 he he was a card carrying member. They literally have 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.400 found his name on rolls at the church. The membership 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:55.960 role at the Church of Satan. So what level he 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.840 was involved, we don't know, but we don't Again, there's 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.800 no record of him doing anything criminal around his Church 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:04.840 of Satan involvement. 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:08.320 You know, when you think about Charles and Joseph like 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:13.240 doing this so many years ago and the times that 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.840 we live in now, right, it's crazy to go and 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.600 do that. But back then, they had to have such 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:24.760 tremendous courage, like just to go out in the middle 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:28.560 of nowhere and build their dream home and do the 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:30.960 things that they did, Right, I mean, don't you find 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:35.720 that fascinating and interesting that they were definitely I would 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:37.200 say ahead of their time back then. 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.920 I think courageous is an appropriate word. I think there 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.680 was also an element of desperation. Right, You've got these 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.280 two men. They are living in the suburbs of Chicago 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:50.000 or all intensive purposes, they're closeted. You know, this was 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:52.560 a time where it was still very scary. 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.000 To be gay, even in an urban area like Chicago. 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.360 You know, we had the AIDS epidemic was just around 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:00.560 the corner, you know, it kind of began early eighties, 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:03.680 and so you know, it really shows the level to 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.320 which these men were willing to go to kind of 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.920 escape that closeted life, and there you know, there's a 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.720 narrative here beyond just the sexuality piece. There's a narrative 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.760 of just sort of being fed up with the trappings 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:17.919 of modernity as it were, right like I think they 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:21.639 were also just Scudder had been working at Loyola. He 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:25.639 wrote extensively about the increased paperwork, and the students were 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.440 less respectful, and his colleagues were kind of jerks to him, 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:30.919 and so there's an element of that of just wanting 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:34.040 to escape from the stress of modern life and get 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.600 back to the land. So there's kind of that component. 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:38.280 There's a lot of different narratives in this story. 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:42.200 There's a sexuality angle, there's a satanic panic situation, which 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:44.760 is a whole other angle that was happening and we 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.359 were right in the throes of that in the late seventies. 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:50.280 And then there's sort of this get back to the 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:52.359 land angle as well. 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:55.560 Do we think all the rumors when all that came out, 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.000 especially when they were investigating the murders, you know, obviously 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:02.600 their life lifestyle was on trial as opposed to the 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.440 murderers being on trial. Do you think it was all 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:10.879 surrounding homophobia and paranoia. 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:11.840 Took a couple of days after the murders, but when 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:15.400 the Atlanta media picked up this story, uh, one of 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:17.960 the phrases that kept coming up in their headlines were 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:22.480 homosexual devil worshipers. Right, what's the weight of that phrase. 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:24.560 I mean, it's you know, if you're a journalist, that's 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:28.080 fantastic clickbait as much as clickbait could have could have existed. 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:30.480 Sensationalism and it's finest. 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.959 That's it, right, And so so that that that became 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.439 part of the narrative very early, and that was a 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:40.120 significant piece. You have two men who were both sexual 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:45.119 and religious minorities in a extremely rural, very uh you know, 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:47.680 very conservative, uh, small town, and so. 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:49.239 That that was a big part of it. 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:51.840 I'll tell you an interesting, an interesting anecdote from this 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:56.199 story in the newspaper clippings. The sheriff, who was the 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.240 primary sort of investigator, once all that, once the murders happened. 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:03.040 I believe even one of his court testimonies, the discussion 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.960 of motive came up and he said, this is someone 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.199 who was keenly aware of what was happening. He attributed 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:12.360 fifty percent of the motive of the murders was robbery. 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.040 Because the money they thought they had. 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:15.760 Okay, yep. 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.480 He chalked up the other fifty percent too, the fact 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.040 that they were gay and that they were quote unquote 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:23.960 devil worshippers. And when that came up with one of 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:27.160 the suspects, I think it was Avery Brock. He said, basically, 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:29.760 we gave those devil worshippers, you know what they had coming. 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:32.280 That's a paraphrase. And so there was a hate crime 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.920 element to this beyond just the robbery. And I think 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.320 that was you know, again, it's this dehumanization thing. When 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:41.840 we judge people so severely, we dehumanize them, then doing 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:44.800 violence to them is no longer that big of a 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:46.880 deal because they had it coming. 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.160 Right, never thought about it that way, Yeah, I mean 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:52.080 from their perspective, I've never thought about that. Yeah. 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.399 It's just so interesting because you know, like Russia was 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:59.120 saying about our great grandfather who had all these wild parties, 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:01.440 you know, in the Franklin House here in Los Angeles, 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.639 the same thing goes for you know, Charles and Joseph 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:08.680 they were having you know, these sex parties and people 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:10.639 coming in and out of the house. I mean, do 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:15.280 you think that these guys were like wanting to take 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:18.520 advantage of them in some way, you know, because one 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:22.239 of the guys was having relations with Charles. So do 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.240 you think it was definitely premeditated. 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.359 Yeah, we definitely know it was very premeditated. The two perps, 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:33.520 Brock and West, these were not smart people. Their backgrounds 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:37.200 were very shady, you know, petty crime from an early age. 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:39.760 One of the gentlemen actually murdered someone when he was 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.040 a child. I think it was a relative or something, 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:42.760 and so he. 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:43.399 Was his brother. 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:47.120 Yeah, yeah, that's right, right, and so that was part 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:49.879 of this. Uh so it was definitely premeditated. Again, it 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.800 was a crime of opportunity and there in their minds 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:55.720