1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 2: Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rascha Peccarero 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 2: and I'm Yvett Gentilay, and today we're talking about the 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 2: murders of Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom, which is also 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 2: known as the Corpsewood Manner Murders. And you guys, this 11 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 2: one really has it all. Satanism, sex parties, and a 12 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 2: creepy mansion in the woods. 13 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 3: It sure does. 14 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 2: But it's also about two people trying to break free 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: from a society that did not accept them, and they 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 2: ended up six at least for a little while, until 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 2: that society came for them and did them in. 18 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 4: Listeners familiar with the Satanic Panic Scare of the nineteen 19 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 4: eighties might be familiar with this case, which took place 20 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 4: in the Deep South. No less, and here is an 21 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 4: interesting fact. Bobby Lee Cook, a famous lawyer who was 22 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 4: involved with the Atlanta child murders and the case that 23 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 4: inspired Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, played 24 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 4: a part here. He represented the sons of one of 25 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 4: the murder victims in the estate dispute that followed the murders. 26 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 2: And that was the same lawyer that inspired the TV 27 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: show Mattlocke that ran in the nineteen eighties and the 28 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: nineteen nineties. Anyhow, today we are incredibly excited to welcome 29 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: podcaster B. T. Harmon, who has also written about this 30 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: case for Atlanta Magazine. I am incredibly honored to dig 31 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: deep into the story of Charles Scudder and Joseph Odin 32 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: with BT today. But first our producer Trevor is going 33 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: to take us through today's case. 34 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 5: They became not necessarily the classical interpretation of devil worshipers 35 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 5: quote Satanists. They became basically earth worshiping people. Their architectural 36 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 5: style of their home, their patterns for living, the total 37 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 5: dependence on the earth and its source of power, their 38 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 5: total dependence on their own food sources, their total independence 39 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 5: from all embarrassed types of lifestyles. 40 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom were a couple who were 41 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: murdered in their home in Treon, Georgia in nineteen eighty two. 42 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: Charles and Joseph had moved to Chattooga County, Georgia, from Chicago, 43 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: where Charles taught for many years at Loyola University. Charles 44 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: was a lover of science, art, drama, and music, and 45 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: considered himself extremely counter cultural. He kept a pet monkey, 46 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: dyed his hair unusual colors, and heavily identified with the 47 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: Adams family. Charles was also publicly a member of the 48 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: Church of Satan, and would even drive into town in 49 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: a jeep that he had painted with pentagrams. The Church 50 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: of Satan supported the notion that anything goes between two 51 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: consenting adults, and it was a place where he found 52 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: acceptance in a time when mainstream American society didn't accept 53 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: gay people. In the late nineteen seventies, Charles and Joseph Odam, 54 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: then his live in housekeeper, decided to leave Chicago on 55 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: a plot in rural Georgia. They cleared the land, laid 56 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: the bricks and insalled a water pumping system for what 57 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: they would call Corpsewood manor their dream house, on forty 58 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: five acres. The home included a library with books on 59 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: the occult human skulls and a pink gargoyle over the 60 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: front entrance. There were also stained glass windows that Charles 61 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: had made himself, and on the third floor of this 62 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: building was a space they called the Pink Room, and 63 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: that's where the couple would entertain guests. The walls were 64 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: decorated with candles, whips, chains, and even a log book 65 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: listing guest sexual predilections. And in nearby Treon, Georgia, rumors 66 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: surrounded these quote homosexual devil worshipers, as they were sometimes called, 67 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: but people would still visit just to see the place, 68 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 1: and Charles would give visitors homemade wine and let people 69 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: hunt on their property. One of those visitors was a 70 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: troubled teenager named Kenneth Avery Brock. Avery, as he was known, 71 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: had had a number of alleged sexual encounters with Charles Scudder, 72 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: and he believed that Charles and Joseph were millionaires. As 73 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: it turns out, this was not true, but on the 74 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: night of December twelfth, nineteen eighty two, Charles and Joseph 75 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: were throwing a party. Avery Brock came that night bringing 76 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: his friend to Tony West. Together, Avery and Tony hatched 77 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: a plan to rob their hosts. In the pink room, 78 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 1: Charles served their guest homemade wine while Joseph stayed in 79 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: the main house to clean up after dinner. That's when 80 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: Avery stepped out and returned with a rifle, and he 81 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: pointed it directly at Charles. Then Avery bound and gagged 82 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: Charles with a bedsheet. Avery then went to the main house, 83 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: where he found Joseph in the kitchen and shot him 84 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: four times. He also killed the couple's two dogs. The 85 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 1: killers then dragged Charles into the house, where they ripped 86 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: off his gag and asked him where the money was. 87 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: Then they shot and killed Charles. Avery and Tony then 88 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 1: ransacked the house, but left with only a handful of 89 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: coins and a few knick knacks. The pair were later 90 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: arrested and both were eventually sentenced to life in prison. 91 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: The trial and surrounding coverage of the murders played on 92 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: fears that were widespread at the time, both about Satanism 93 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: and about homosexuality. Years later, the abandoned Corpsewood Manor was 94 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: vandalized and burned to the ground. Today, only ruins remain 95 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: of the once elegant structure. In rural North Georgia. And 96 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: so who were Charles Scudder and Joseph odom and how 97 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: does their story reflect the dangers of living through a 98 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: period of American history rife with paranoia, homophobia, and violence. 99 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 2: Oh looha everyone, I am so excited to welcome our 100 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 2: guest for today's episode. So joining us to discuss the 101 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 2: murder of Charles Scudder and Joseph odom Or. 102 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 3: As many of you know, this is. 103 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 2: Also called the Corpsewood Murders is writer B. T. 104 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 6: Harmon. 105 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 2: BT has written at length about this case for Atlanta Magazine, 106 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: and he is also the host of the true crime 107 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,119 Speaker 2: historical podcast Catolic. He joins us, now, welcome at Komo 108 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 2: may to Facing EVILBT. 109 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 7: Thank you, it's good to be here. 110 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 3: We are so. 111 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 2: Honored to have you here, and we're just going to 112 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: dive right in. My sister and I of course have 113 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 2: done a deep dive. We know who you are, but 114 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: we want our listeners to know more about you. So 115 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: if you could tell us a little bit about your history, 116 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 2: particularly with true crime, and what brought you to historical 117 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 2: true crime. 118 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 7: Yeah. 119 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 8: So, I'm forty one years old, live in Atlanta, Georgia. 120 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 8: I grew up in a small town in Alabama called 121 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 8: Florence and had a corporate job for a while, and 122 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 8: then about six or seven years ago, launched out on 123 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 8: my own to start a new career. So got into 124 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 8: kind of creative consulting, working with small businesses, and in 125 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 8: the midst of that, decided to launch two podcasts. So 126 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 8: my first podcast was called Blue Baby's Pink. It's sort 127 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 8: of my personal coming out story and very memoir esque. 128 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 8: And then my second podcast was completely different, a total 129 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 8: one to eighty. We went to from a personal story 130 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 8: of faith and sexuality to true crime and history. And 131 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 8: so I launched the podcast called cat Lick in twenty nineteen, 132 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 8: and it covers a very unique span of time in 133 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 8: Atlantis history between nineteen eleven and nineteen fifteen and four 134 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 8: separate incidences that were playing out. All four really had 135 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 8: sort of an angle of racism, racial terror, and the 136 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 8: stories were just so unbelievably sensational. It was like something 137 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 8: out of Hollywood, and all the newspapers in Atlanta were 138 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 8: covering them simultaneously and not really That podcast was a 139 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 8: result of about five years of very in depth research, 140 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 8: getting very nitty gritty on the historical details, but I'm 141 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 8: really proud of it and how it turned out. 142 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 4: Wow, that's quite a transition, right to go into true crime. 143 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 4: Can I just ask you a question, how did you 144 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 4: come up with the name cat lick? 145 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 7: Yeah? 146 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 8: So I just love a good, clever, creative name. And 147 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 8: I discovered this word cat lick. It sort of has 148 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 8: like an English British route and it's kind of a 149 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 8: slang word for like imagine like a mom tells her child, Hey, 150 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 8: go go wash up, and he comes back and he 151 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 8: just sort of he didn't really wash, He just sort 152 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 8: of dusted himself off, and she says. 153 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 7: No, that's just a cat lick. 154 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 8: It's like a cat lick do you write you know, 155 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 8: you didn't fully wash. 156 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 7: And so to me it was it was sort of a. 157 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 8: Really great proxy for the way this nation has handled 158 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 8: a lot of race issues. 159 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 5: Right. 160 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 8: Yes, we've we'd like to think that we've done a 161 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 8: thorough washing, but when you really get down to it, 162 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 8: we really haven't. 163 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 7: And it's just a little cat lick. 164 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 8: And it has the letters at L right in the 165 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 8: middle of the word catlick, which was you know, I 166 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 8: just thought that was really cool. 167 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 7: So to me, it was just it was it was 168 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 7: the right name. 169 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. How clever is that on 170 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 4: every level? You know, let's just jump right into it. 171 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 4: Can you tell us when you first heard about the 172 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 4: Corpse Wood murders. 173 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 8: Yeah, so it was actually in the midst of producing Catlic. 174 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 8: I was releasing weekly episodes and I got an Instagram 175 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 8: message from a fan who was listening to catlic and. 176 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 7: He said, hey, your next podcast should be about the Corpse. 177 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 8: Would Manner murders. And id ever heard of that before? So, 178 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 8: of course, did what we all do. I googled it 179 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 8: and boy, that was a whole rabbit hole and I 180 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,719 Speaker 8: probably spent I don't know, two or three hours just 181 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 8: learning about that case. And it took place, you know, 182 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 8: maybe forty maybe sixty miles north of where I live 183 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 8: here in Atlanta, happened in the seventies and eighties, And 184 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 8: so once I discovered that that was on my radar 185 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 8: and I thought, boy, this is a this is a 186 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 8: fascinating story on a lot of levels. 187 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 2: I want to know so much more, bt so much more, 188 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 2: like I mean, especially not having heard about it and 189 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 2: then hearing about it from a fan. 190 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 3: Do you know that area? And did it surprise you? 191 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 2: That this type of thing or horrific murder would happen 192 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 2: in that rural area in Georgia. 193 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 8: Yeah, so the learn that took place. It's a county 194 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 8: called Chattooga County. Like I said, it's about an hour 195 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 8: hour and a half drive north of Atlanta. Of course, 196 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 8: I'm in Atlanta for over a decade now. Love the city, progressive, global, 197 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 8: big airport, a lot of just great arts and culture scene. Yeah, diversity, 198 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 8: it's great. But you know, like a lot of states, 199 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:05,719 Speaker 8: once you get you know, a ways outside of the 200 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 8: big city, things get very rural very quickly. And I listened. 201 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 8: I grew up in a small town. I love small 202 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 8: town USA. I think it's fantastic, and my heart is 203 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 8: still there in some ways. But yeah, Chatooga County. The 204 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 8: city is called Tryon, which is where these gentlemen lived. Yeah, 205 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 8: extremely rural. And when I went there, you know, because 206 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 8: again the whole story took place in the late seventies, 207 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 8: so this was we just had the fortieth anniversary of 208 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 8: the murders, right, And so when I went there, I 209 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 8: was I was just shocked at how rural it still was, right. 210 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 7: I mean forty years later, right, right, And something I. 211 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 8: Can't imagine what this area was like, you know, forty 212 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 8: years ago, because even today, I mean it's, you know, 213 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 8: a beautiful area, but just impossibly different from Atlanta in 214 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 8: so many ways. 215 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: I would love to know what you personally thought, especially 216 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: on your journey and going to try on and just 217 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 2: seeing it for yourself. Did you feel like vibes? Was 218 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: it haunted? 219 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 3: What were your first instincts and feelings when you were there? 220 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:09,599 Speaker 8: Yeah, So one of the days I was there was 221 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 8: the middle of the summer. It literally was one hundred 222 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 8: and one hundred and three degrees that day, so just 223 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 8: one of these sweltering southern hot days that you know, 224 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 8: grow up in Alabama very familiar with. But yeah, visiting 225 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 8: that area obviously, I wanted to get a feel for 226 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 8: what's it like now? And it was really interesting. 227 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 7: You know. 228 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 8: I had lunch at one of the few little cafes 229 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 8: in town, and my waitress was maybe in her twenties, 230 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 8: and I just said, you know, hey, have you ever 231 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 8: heard of the Corpsewood Manor Murders? And her eyes, you know, 232 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 8: they got real big, and she said, oh, yeah, that's over, 233 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 8: that's over on Devil Worshippers Mountain. And you know, my 234 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 8: all of high school, our friends would go up there, 235 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 8: and one of my friends she stole a brick, and 236 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 8: you know, if you steal a brick from the ruins, 237 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 8: you're cursed. And sure enough her her parents were in 238 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 8: a car wreck. So yeah, there was that kind of energy. 239 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 8: And she told me, she's like, if you go up there, 240 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 8: bring a baseball bat. And so, you know, it's just 241 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 8: it's small town. 242 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 7: It's folklore. 243 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,559 Speaker 8: At this point, those stories are, you know, etched in 244 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 8: the minds of everyone in that county. And I got 245 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 8: in my car and I drove up Mountain View Road. 246 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 8: I mean, up this winding gravel road. All the houses 247 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 8: have sort of these big, sort of impending fences and gates, 248 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 8: and you know, rebel flags are flying and don't tread 249 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 8: on me flags, and so, I mean it did have 250 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 8: sort of this ominousness about it. And I got up 251 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 8: there and it was remarkably creepy. I mean, I feel 252 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 8: like that's. 253 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 7: So cliche to say, and obviously there's a psychology thing. 254 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 8: Going on there in my head, but yeah, it just 255 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 8: had this it sort of had a heaviness about it. 256 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 8: And the site is now privately owned and you technically 257 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 8: aren't supposed to go there, but lots of people still 258 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 8: go up there and trapes around the property and go 259 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 8: through the ruins. The house has collapsed. It was burned 260 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 8: shortly after the whole incident happened. Arson has set fire 261 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 8: to it, so it is just a very haunted ruins. 262 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 8: Now it's bricks. There's the old arch, one of the 263 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 8: main arches from the gazebo that was there, overgrown with 264 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 8: vines and so it's just dense woods. But yeah, it 265 00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 8: definitely has that energy to it. 266 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 4: Do you think that Charles was, you know, into Satanic 267 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 4: stuff or do you think he was just an atheist 268 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 4: and just you know, he and Joseph were just living 269 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 4: their lives doing you know, the things that they enjoyed doing. 270 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 4: What do you think about that? Because it's like we create, 271 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 4: you know, we create stuff in our head right of 272 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 4: what we think people are doing, but are they actually 273 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 4: doing that stuff? 274 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 5: Yeah? 275 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 8: So this is where I again, I am not an 276 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 8: expert on the Church of Satan. I grew up my 277 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 8: dad was a Southern Baptist pastor, so you know, I 278 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 8: don't have expertise here, but based off my research. 279 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,359 Speaker 3: Me either yeah, right, not like either. 280 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 8: When the Church of Satan started, It wasn't they weren't 281 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 8: committing duplicitous acts and you know, sacrificing animals. It's almost 282 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 8: like a troll job, right, It's like for people who 283 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 8: are atheists, this is a great way to kind of 284 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 8: troll people of faith. So Charles Scudder was a he 285 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 8: was a counterculture guy. I mean he I think I 286 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 8: read at one point he had pink hair. 287 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 7: I believe I read. 288 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 8: And you have to fact check me. I think he 289 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 8: had a pet monkey at one time. 290 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 7: So yeah, that's it. 291 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 8: And so I kind of viewed his involvement with the 292 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 8: Church of Satan is like it was just another way 293 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 8: to kind of be different. And you know, but he 294 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 8: did the symbology. He definitely loved you know, when he 295 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 8: built the Big Mannor there were statues of Baphomet, and 296 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 8: there were stained glass windows with pentagrams, and of course 297 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 8: there was this towering pink gargoyle over the main doorway. 298 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 3: And so I've seen the photos. 299 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, right, so you know they definitely I mean, 300 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 8: he he was a card carrying member. They literally have 301 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 8: found his name on rolls at the church. The membership 302 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 8: role at the Church of Satan. So what level he 303 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 8: was involved, we don't know, but we don't Again, there's 304 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 8: no record of him doing anything criminal around his Church 305 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 8: of Satan involvement. 306 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 4: You know, when you think about Charles and Joseph like 307 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 4: doing this so many years ago and the times that 308 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 4: we live in now, right, it's crazy to go and 309 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 4: do that. But back then, they had to have such 310 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 4: tremendous courage, like just to go out in the middle 311 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 4: of nowhere and build their dream home and do the 312 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 4: things that they did, Right, I mean, don't you find 313 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 4: that fascinating and interesting that they were definitely I would 314 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 4: say ahead of their time back then. 315 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 8: I think courageous is an appropriate word. I think there 316 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 8: was also an element of desperation. Right, You've got these 317 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 8: two men. They are living in the suburbs of Chicago 318 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 8: or all intensive purposes, they're closeted. You know, this was 319 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 8: a time where it was still very scary. 320 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 7: To be gay, even in an urban area like Chicago. 321 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 8: You know, we had the AIDS epidemic was just around 322 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 8: the corner, you know, it kind of began early eighties, 323 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 8: and so you know, it really shows the level to 324 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 8: which these men were willing to go to kind of 325 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 8: escape that closeted life, and there you know, there's a 326 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 8: narrative here beyond just the sexuality piece. There's a narrative 327 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 8: of just sort of being fed up with the trappings 328 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 8: of modernity as it were, right like I think they 329 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 8: were also just Scudder had been working at Loyola. He 330 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 8: wrote extensively about the increased paperwork, and the students were 331 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 8: less respectful, and his colleagues were kind of jerks to him, 332 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 8: and so there's an element of that of just wanting 333 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 8: to escape from the stress of modern life and get 334 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 8: back to the land. So there's kind of that component. 335 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 7: There's a lot of different narratives in this story. 336 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 8: There's a sexuality angle, there's a satanic panic situation, which 337 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 8: is a whole other angle that was happening and we 338 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 8: were right in the throes of that in the late seventies. 339 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 8: And then there's sort of this get back to the 340 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 8: land angle as well. 341 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: Do we think all the rumors when all that came out, 342 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 2: especially when they were investigating the murders, you know, obviously 343 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 2: their life lifestyle was on trial as opposed to the 344 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 2: murderers being on trial. Do you think it was all 345 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 2: surrounding homophobia and paranoia. 346 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 8: Took a couple of days after the murders, but when 347 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 8: the Atlanta media picked up this story, uh, one of 348 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 8: the phrases that kept coming up in their headlines were 349 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 8: homosexual devil worshipers. Right, what's the weight of that phrase. 350 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 8: I mean, it's you know, if you're a journalist, that's 351 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 8: fantastic clickbait as much as clickbait could have could have existed. 352 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 3: Sensationalism and it's finest. 353 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,959 Speaker 8: That's it, right, And so so that that that became 354 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 8: part of the narrative very early, and that was a 355 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 8: significant piece. You have two men who were both sexual 356 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 8: and religious minorities in a extremely rural, very uh you know, 357 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 8: very conservative, uh, small town, and so. 358 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,239 Speaker 7: That that was a big part of it. 359 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 8: I'll tell you an interesting, an interesting anecdote from this 360 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 8: story in the newspaper clippings. The sheriff, who was the 361 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 8: primary sort of investigator, once all that, once the murders happened. 362 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 8: I believe even one of his court testimonies, the discussion 363 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 8: of motive came up and he said, this is someone 364 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 8: who was keenly aware of what was happening. He attributed 365 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 8: fifty percent of the motive of the murders was robbery. 366 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 3: Because the money they thought they had. 367 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 7: Okay, yep. 368 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 8: He chalked up the other fifty percent too, the fact 369 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 8: that they were gay and that they were quote unquote 370 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 8: devil worshippers. And when that came up with one of 371 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 8: the suspects, I think it was Avery Brock. He said, basically, 372 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 8: we gave those devil worshippers, you know what they had coming. 373 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 8: That's a paraphrase. And so there was a hate crime 374 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 8: element to this beyond just the robbery. And I think 375 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 8: that was you know, again, it's this dehumanization thing. When 376 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 8: we judge people so severely, we dehumanize them, then doing 377 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 8: violence to them is no longer that big of a 378 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 8: deal because they had it coming. 379 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 2: Right, never thought about it that way, Yeah, I mean 380 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 2: from their perspective, I've never thought about that. Yeah. 381 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 4: It's just so interesting because you know, like Russia was 382 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 4: saying about our great grandfather who had all these wild parties, 383 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 4: you know, in the Franklin House here in Los Angeles, 384 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 4: the same thing goes for you know, Charles and Joseph 385 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 4: they were having you know, these sex parties and people 386 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 4: coming in and out of the house. I mean, do 387 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 4: you think that these guys were like wanting to take 388 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 4: advantage of them in some way, you know, because one 389 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,239 Speaker 4: of the guys was having relations with Charles. So do 390 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 4: you think it was definitely premeditated. 391 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 8: Yeah, we definitely know it was very premeditated. The two perps, 392 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 8: Brock and West, these were not smart people. Their backgrounds 393 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 8: were very shady, you know, petty crime from an early age. 394 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 8: One of the gentlemen actually murdered someone when he was 395 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 8: a child. I think it was a relative or something, 396 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 8: and so he. 397 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 3: Was his brother. 398 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, that's right, right, and so that was part 399 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 8: of this. Uh so it was definitely premeditated. Again, it 400 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 8: was a crime of opportunity and there in their minds 401 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 8: they just assumed, well, these these guys have a big house. 402 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 8: There must be money hidden in this house somewhere. So, 403 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 8: you know, just not not the smartest guys on the block. 404 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 8: But that definitely was that was the initial motive which 405 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 8: got the ball rolling. 406 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 4: This is just such a crazy story, you know when 407 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 4: you think about it. Do they know who actually burned 408 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 4: down the house? 409 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 7: They don't know. 410 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 3: They're probably like burn it, burn it to the ground. 411 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 2: Whatever happened here, And all of the folklore that I'm 412 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 2: sure is followed in the years after this horrific murder. 413 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 2: It makes me so sad to see that this something 414 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,479 Speaker 2: like this would happen again. I know it was in 415 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: the nineteen eighties. We've come a long way yet, We've 416 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 2: got so far to go. But do you think initially, 417 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 2: of course, that their murders were, like you said, dismissed 418 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 2: because these perps dehumanized them because they thought that they 419 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 2: were xyz all these horrible things. Do we think that 420 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 2: it was truly just because they were gay, or do 421 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 2: you think it had a satanic thing too, or all 422 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 2: of the above? 423 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it was the perfect storm. 424 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 8: I mean, even now, if someone is a self availed 425 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 8: homosexual and they are part of the Church of Satan, 426 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 8: that that person would be shrouded in great taboo, right, Yeah, 427 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 8: And so back then, of course, it was probably tenfold 428 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,479 Speaker 8: the level of misunderstanding that existed culturally on what it 429 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 8: meant to be gay. I mean, it was just barely 430 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 8: in the American conscience at that point, and as it 431 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 8: existed in that conscience, it was fully taboo, fully disgusting, 432 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 8: fully inappropriate here in the South, fully worthy of being 433 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 8: damned to hell. 434 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 7: You know. 435 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 8: I mean, that's the kind of theology that exists in 436 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 8: the South certainly then and it still does today, and 437 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 8: so so yeah, I do think that colored the way 438 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 8: that people thought about this case. 439 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 7: Back then. 440 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 8: It was probably kind of easy to dismiss this as 441 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 8: an issue of justice. Well that's what they you know, 442 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 8: that's what they had coming. And there were there were 443 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 8: quotes in several newspapers where they did any man on 444 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 8: the street interviews with folks around Atlanta, and several people 445 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 8: said that wow, which was certainly reflective of the times. 446 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 4: So what do you think about the sentences that the 447 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 4: two men got. Do you feel that it was a 448 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 4: fair sentence? 449 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 7: Yeah? I think so. 450 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 8: I mean, the two gentlemen are still in jail to 451 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 8: this day. They were just young, barely teenagers at the time, 452 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 8: and they're becoming old men in jail, and so, you know, 453 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 8: the justice system prevailed and they were you know, quickly 454 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 8: apprehended within days of the crime, and they're still serving 455 00:23:59,160 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 8: time for it. 456 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd have to agree with you on that. It's 457 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 4: like it seems like this is the time that our 458 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 4: you know, our system actually worked. 459 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 2: As long as we've been doing this, it's rare that 460 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 2: that has happened, especially in you know, I can definitely 461 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 2: say that I believe this was a partial hate crime. Yes, 462 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 2: it was probably, like you said, the perfect storm beauty. 463 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 2: But I would love to know, on a personal note 464 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 2: for you, especially, you know, being from Alabama and living 465 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 2: in Georgia and being a for all intents and purposes, 466 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 2: a happily gay married man, how do you relate, if 467 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 2: at all, to Charles and Joseph. How has this case 468 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 2: impacted you and your life? 469 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 8: So I spent the first thirty ish years of my 470 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 8: life deep in the closet, grew up again in a 471 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 8: very very conservative Christian family, and the only thing I 472 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 8: knew to survive through my childhood, teens and twenties was 473 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 8: to just be closeted. And you know, my coping mechanism 474 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 8: at that time was work. Once I graduated college, I 475 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 8: became a workaholic. And so I can't say that I 476 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 8: perfectly identify with how those two men felt, but I 477 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 8: bet there. 478 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 7: Was a lot of overlap. 479 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 8: The feeling of soul crushing shame, the feeling of not 480 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 8: being worthy, the feeling of the crippling fear of imagining 481 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 8: what life would be like if those who knew this 482 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 8: dark secret about you know, what they would do or 483 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 8: how they would judge you. So yeah, I get it, 484 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 8: and I understand why they would want to run from 485 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 8: that life that they had in Chicago and just get 486 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 8: away and build a castle in the woods to try 487 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 8: to find peace. You know, at the end of the day, 488 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 8: that's what everyone's looking for. We're looking for a way 489 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 8: to exist and just live our lives. And I think 490 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 8: that's what they were doing, and so I'm really thankful 491 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 8: that that's not my story. And listen, I'm a very 492 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 8: optimistic person. And as you said earlier, when it comes 493 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 8: to LGBT rights, we've got a long way to go. 494 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 8: But I will be the first to say I love 495 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 8: where we are now. And the life that my husband 496 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 8: and I have been able to build here in Atlanta 497 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 8: is just beautiful. It is unbelievably mundane, right. I mean, 498 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 8: we have two cats, we have a garden in the summer, 499 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 8: and we watch Netflix at night. 500 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 7: And the fact that we're able to do that like. 501 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 8: Unbothered for the most part, and we have neighbors that 502 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 8: are so incredibly supportive and love us. 503 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 7: It's amazing. 504 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 8: And so to me, that's another sub narrative of this 505 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 8: story is people don't have to necessarily move to the 506 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 8: woods anymore to escape the shame of the closet. You know, 507 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 8: in some areas, you know they probably want to, but 508 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 8: thankfully there are refuges where people can build really beautiful 509 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 8: lives for themselves. 510 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 2: You know what we do here on Facing Eveill we 511 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 2: always look for the light in the darkness. And I 512 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 2: know it's hard to find the light in some case cases, 513 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 2: especially one as gruesome as this. But just in this 514 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: short time that we've had with you, I know that 515 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 2: you are a bright, shining light of optimism. Can you 516 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 2: give our listeners and Yvett n I a little light 517 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 2: in the dark. What do you see in this case 518 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 2: that doesn't make it so dark for us? 519 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 5: Yeah? 520 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 7: I think two things come to mind. 521 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 8: I mean, we referenced it earlier, but the justice system 522 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 8: in this case worked yes, yes. 523 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 7: And again. 524 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 8: And when you read some of the reports from law enforcement, 525 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 8: you know they went out of their way to say 526 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 8: in their investigation, to be clear, we don't care that 527 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 8: these men were gay or were devil worshippers. 528 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 7: We are here to serve justice beautiful and so that 529 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 7: was inspiring. 530 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 8: And these are small town police officers in rural North 531 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 8: Georgia in the nineteen eighties, and they were pushing through 532 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 8: to say justice matters, and we're going to find justice 533 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 8: for these two men, despite what anyone thinks about them. 534 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 8: And I found that really beautiful and inspiring. The second 535 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 8: thing I would say is, you know, it's a lesson 536 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 8: for today, but again, look. 537 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 7: How far we've come. 538 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 8: Yes, the fact that we have progressed so far and 539 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 8: LGBTQ rights and people like me are able to build 540 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 8: wonderfully beautiful, mundane lives is really remarkable, and so I 541 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 8: think we all should step back and let that provide 542 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 8: a little hope, because it's really really beautiful hope. 543 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 4: Yes, that's the life, open healing, that is, that's what 544 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 4: it's all about. We completely, one hundred percent enjoyed speaking 545 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 4: with you today. 546 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 3: BT. 547 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 4: I love how you're so Southern and you love it 548 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 4: and you just radiate in it, you know, in all 549 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 4: that you are. So you know, what we can all 550 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 4: wish for for ourselves and for others is just happiness 551 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 4: at the end of the day. Just happiness. 552 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 7: That's it. 553 00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 3: It's really simple, it's really simple. 554 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much, BT for joining us. On 555 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,719 Speaker 4: facing evil, and we look forward to chatting with you 556 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 4: again real soon. 557 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:08,959 Speaker 7: Cheers. 558 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 4: This week's message of hope and healing goes out to 559 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 4: the pioneers, people like Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom who, 560 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 4: finding no acceptance in the real world, built a world 561 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 4: all of their own. 562 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 2: And they built a space where they could be who 563 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 2: they were in a time when it was hard to 564 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 2: find acceptance in the wider world, and they were happy, 565 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 2: at least for a little while. 566 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 4: Pioneers like these make new spaces and in doing so, 567 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 4: pave the way for others. In an interview with Mother 568 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 4: Earth magazine about building Corpsewood Manner, Charles Scudder wrote, people 569 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 4: often fantasize about trying out different lifestyles, but few actually 570 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 4: change the way they live. They just don't know that. 571 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 4: All it takes is to realize a fan is a 572 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 4: small amount of money, a bit of luck, and a 573 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 4: whole lot of courage. 574 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 2: In this moment, we honor that courage. Onward and upward. 575 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 3: Ema Emua. Well, that's our show for today. 576 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion 577 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 2: and if there's a case you'd like for us to. 578 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 4: Cover, find us on social media or email us at 579 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 4: Facingeblpod at Tenderfoot dot tv. 580 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 2: And one small request if you haven't already, please find 581 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 2: us on iTunes and give us a good rating and 582 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 2: a good review. If you like what we do, your 583 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 2: support is always cherished. 584 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 6: Until next time, Aloha. 585 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. 586 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and Avet Gentile. 587 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf 588 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald 589 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of 590 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge. 591 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on 592 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv. 593 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the 594 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 595 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: favorite shows.