WEBVTT - The Case of Emma Woods, Pt. 1 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:05.320 Strangeer Rivals is a production of iHeart Radio and Grin 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:07.040 and Mild from Aaron Mackey. 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:10.440 For the best experience, listen with headphones. 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:21.120 This episode contains discussions of sexual violence. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:24.479 Because you have to. 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:27.040 Remember, they've had a lot of time and energy invested 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:32.879 in you, and and and I can't just you. 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:38.640 Know, be incapacitated that what's the point. There's no point 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:39.760 in that. It's pointless. 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:45.120 I mean they want your help. Yeah, if they're ready 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:46.440 you so to Speaker. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.400 Of the Year, I mean, and then they can't have 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:49.160 your help at all. 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:51.360 As a year rid of me. Well I don't they 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:53.559 You still have your help, so. 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:57.240 Certainly you It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. See what 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:02.680 I mean, as you said before, and as I have said, 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:05.120 and as everybody says, it does seem like empty. 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.400 Friends, because I mean you're. 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.400 You're really a person of value to them, you know. 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:14.120 Yeah. 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:16.600 But at the same time they do drag you around. 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.400 And sexual assault and all the rest of that kind 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:19.880 of stuff. 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.280 So there is there is a lot of physical intimidation. 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:27.319 I think, get you didn't come time. 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:43.880 I'm Toby Bald and this is strange Arrivals, Episode six, 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:46.240 The Case of Emma. 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:54.160 Woods Well, I use a pseudonym Emma Woods, and I 0:01:55.120 --> 0:02:00.920 was a research subject of David Jacobs, who is a 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:04.240 well known and in induction researcher, and he was an 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:07.200 associate professor of Temple University at the time that I 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:12.079 was his research subject. I had many hypno secessions with 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:16.520 him over about two years, and then I became quite 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:20.120 concerned about what was happening, and I then ended my 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:24.239 association with him. And then a few years later I 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:28.360 made it known in the UFO field quite widely, became 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.280 quite a controversy in the UFO field. And yes, that's 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.600 pretty much how I came to be known in the 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:40.000 UFO field, through the controversy over what happened when I 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:42.080 was a research subject of David Jacobs. 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:46.079 In the last couple of episodes, we've heard the name 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.560 David Jacobs a few times. The next three episodes will 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:55.880 focus on his work, particularly with Emma Woods. Jacobs, Bud Hopkins, 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.360 and John Mack were the most important self styled alien 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:03.079 abduction researchers in the eighties and nineties and into the 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.960 early two thousands. The height of public interests in the phenomenon. 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:11.519 As we have seen previously, Mac's particular theory about the 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:15.080 abductions was that they were carried out by beings interacting 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:18.079 with humans to try to save the Earth's future and 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:22.160 promote a spiritual awakening. Hopkins and Jacobs agreed with Mac 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:25.600 on the fact that abductions were occurring, but not necessarily 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:29.519 the nature of the abductors and certainly not their intentions. 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:34.960 Will never know what doctor Mack would have come to 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.680 have thought at this point in time. I like to 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:43.960 think that maybe he was a bit credulous. Hoping to 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:49.760 find something important in an existential way is what may 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:54.160 have led him off of the less ill in foreign path, 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:58.440 But I don't know. He died in two thousand and four, 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:02.560 so we don't know what he would have thought about 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:07.000 what the genre came to be today. I'm Jack Brewer. 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:13.560 I write the UFO Trail blog. It's dedicated to posting 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:19.480 credible info on incredible topics, and I have written two 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:23.680 self published books. The first was The Graves Have Been 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:29.240 Framed Exploitation in the UFO Community, and my more recent 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:33.320 book is Wayward Son's Nightcap. 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:34.320 In the ic. 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:40.440 Bud Hopkins maintained until his death in twenty eleven that 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:46.280 there was a alien nuts and bolts presence that was 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:52.840 kidnapping human beings, en mass millions of people, that this 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:58.120 was happening too, and David Jacobs he went in this 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:03.600 vein as well, and Mac was kind of a space brothers, 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:08.600 this is a good thing evolution perspective. Bud Hopkins was 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:12.400 a bit more, I don't know, this doesn't look good. 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:17.679 People are horrified, and that seemed to grab some attention, 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:24.240 and then David Jacobs was full on the threat. Literally, 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:32.360 this is raping and pillaging, sexual molestation. The intent of 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:38.400 the aliens is to hybridize the human race. The math 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:44.320 didn't even add up. It was completely mad scientists territory. 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:50.520 Like Mac and Hopkins, Jacobs relied on hypnotic regression sessions 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.880 with people who had self identified as believing they might 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:58.880 have had one or more, sometimes many more, alien abduction experiences. 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.960 One of the three were actually trained hypnosis experts. 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:09.400 I also came to feel that the lack of willingness 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:14.880 to take any hypnosis training was a means to deflect 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:22.240 from any potential lawsuits or recourse on behalf of what 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:29.479 really amounted to research subjects or potential subjects of paperback books. 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.800 They didn't want to be part of any type of 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:38.720 board certified organization, and that whatever was going on was 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:42.560 just casually between consenting adults. 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:47.560 Jacobs and Hopkins both were very concerned that their work 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:51.320 had the veneer of legitimate science. There is an irony 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:56.160 here because the one scientist in their group, mac rejected 0:06:56.240 --> 0:07:01.000 Western science as being inadequate to study the phenomenon. Hopkins 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:05.279 and Jacobs, however, wanted their work to be considered scientifically sound. 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:09.920 But this had problems which they probably understood because they 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:12.960 also put themselves forward as counselors to the people who 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:17.640 they were hypnotizing, providing services that the medical profession, because 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.040 it did not recognize alien abduction. 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:20.480 Would not. 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:27.600 Hopkins and Jacob's and those who followed in their footsteps 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:32.160 really blurred the lines of what the purpose of the 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:38.120 relationship was. Sometimes they would even refer to the subjects 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:42.800 of their books as patients or clients, as if it 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:48.000 was some type of therapeutic relationship. In my opinion, from 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:54.200 looking closely at this, that served as an advantageous means 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:58.360 to deflect criticism that if they got called out for 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:03.640 a lack of scientific objectivity, which they claimed to be 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:08.200 undertaking scientific study and were presented under the move on 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:13.800 umbrella often and David Jacobs actually even on his website 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:19.080 and often would claim to be observing and working under 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:25.040 scientific principles, which again by definition, simply is not true. 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.720 Blurring the lines of the relationship served as a means 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:34.079 to deflect criticism, and if they were called out about 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:38.000 a lack of scientific objectivity, they could claim to just 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:42.200 be providing emotional support. If it was pointed out they 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:49.240 had ZILT training and providing emotional support and a professional capacity, 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:53.960 they could say that they were conducting an investigation about 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.640 the most important story in the history of mankind, that 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.439 they were the only people willing to look get and 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:01.640 couldn't be ignored. 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:05.400 Which brings us back to Emma Woods. 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:11.120 I've had what I see as anomalous experiences. I've had 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:13.480 them all my life, but I didn't connect them to 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:18.640 uphology or the air in abduction phenomenon. I just didn't 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.079 know what they were. In my sort of late thirties, 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:26.000 I read a magazine article listing signs that you're an 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:28.880 alien abductee type of thing, and I was really surprised 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.440 because a lot of those were things that I had had. 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:35.160 I was seeing a therapist about life issues, and I 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:39.079 had talked to him about some of my experiences and 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:41.800 he took a very neutral view on it. And his 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:45.720 view was basically that we don't know everything about reality, 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:49.400 and you know, it's fine to explore it, but just 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.280 keep an open mind. And that's kind of how I 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.800 naturally do things anyway, So that worked really well for me. 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.800 Emma told her therapist about the magazine Art article and 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:03.920 how it seemed to relate to her life. Her therapist, 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.040 as you might expect, found this to be outside the 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:10.719 normal scope of his work. He consulted with colleagues, but 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:15.839 that went nowhere, so he looked for assistants elsewhere. This 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:19.400 is Jeremy Vanny, who is largely responsible for breaking the 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.720 Emma Wood story along with his co host Jeff Ritzman 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:27.319 on the podcast Peratopia and in an article in UFO magazine. 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.640 Here's David Jacobs, at the time working for Temple University. 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.640 On his website, claims to be giving speeches in front 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:40.480 of universities, specifically psych departments. Claims to be able to 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:45.120 train you to hypnotize and give this pseudotherapy to abductees. 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:48.320 All of that stuff looks like it's got the stink 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.839 of official approval on it, and so he contacted David 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:52.880 Jacobs on her behalf. 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:58.120 Jacobs sent Emma's therapist a packet of information along with 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:01.280 his contact information, saying that Emma could get in touch 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:05.360 with him if she wanted. Emma continued working with her therapist, 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:08.359 who suggested that she write a history of her anomalist 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.920 experiences and start keeping a record of them when they happened. 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.920 So I started doing that and I shared that with him, 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:19.439 and then he became quite interested in that. He still 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:22.319 was very much like, we don't know what this is. 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.160 We've got to keep an open mind, but stay neutral, 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:30.120 because he basically didn't want to accept any explanation without 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:33.040 solidly knowing what it was. And I was absolutely fine 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.439 with that, because that's how I was also looking at it. 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.960 As she continued with this work, she began to conclude 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:44.439 that she had experienced cases of alien abduction throughout her life. 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.319 It was quite distressing to kind of realize that, oh 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:51.960 that actually I might be, you know, one of those people. 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.400 And I had to sort of look at my own 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.160 stigma and get past that in order to sort of 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:01.520 approach the UFO, and I think that's partly why I 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.160 had a bit of a crisis around it, and I 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:05.679 had to sort of come to terms with that. 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.840 During this period, she was in contact with David Jacobs, 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.800 though infrequently, and he was not yet doing hypnosis sessions 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:15.120 with her. 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:21.400 I was just in communication with David Jacobs for a 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:26.120 couple of years, just sort of infrequent emails, some phone calls, 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.839 and then he had a lot of interest in the 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:33.000 record of my experiences that I was making, so I 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:36.199 sent him a small sample of it and he asked 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.160 me to send him everything that I had. And then 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:43.760 in two thousand and four, I did a very detailed 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:48.240 one year record of my experiences and Jacobs helped me 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.719 set that up. And this is before I was having hypnosis. 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.319 He was just sort of talking to me in assisting me, 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.120 and he gave me ideas of things to record, like 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.840 I recorded all my dreams for a year. He suggested 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.319 I take pregnancy tists once a month, and he sent 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.679 lead tests from the US to do that, and I 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:09.880 just did this one year record and he was very 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:10.679 interested in that. 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.560 This was two thousand and four, starting in January. By December. 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.160 Jacobs was intrigued enough that he suggested to Emma that 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:24.559 he start hypnotizing her, and then the real problems began. 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:31.600 After the break, strange arrivals will return in a moment. 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.920 After the nineteen ninety two Alien Abduction conference at MIT, 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:52.480 a small roundtable was put together to debrief. The group 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:56.560 included both Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs. Among the things 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.360 discussed was the tendency of some researchers to his gribe 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:04.760 intent to the alien abductors. Hopkins introduced the topic. 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:10.240 One of the aspects of the conference, which suggested a 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.839 bit of a problem to me is there seems to 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.720 be a tendency from time to time to slip into 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.680 discussions of the nature of the alienste whatever they may be, 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:26.080 as to whether they're helping us, hurting us good guys 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:27.800 versus versus. 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:29.640 To get people. 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.160 I think, away from those judgments. 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:35.360 What happens when it's the experiencers who make that judgment 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:36.520 and we see that happening. 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:38.360 I think that I think that one of. 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:42.560 The problems is that the investigator and or a therapist 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:46.280 involved can have an undue influence in that area. 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.920 Later in the discussion, Jacobs said. 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:55.479 This, The danger is having the therapist or the investigator 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:58.840 have a structure of his or her own that they 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:03.760 overly on the experience and sort of steer the abductee 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:08.680 into that structure, and that has a totally different agenda, 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:10.720 and that can be quite quite dangerous. 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:15.440 So it is a little surprising that before he begins 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:19.080 his hypnosis sessions with Emma Woods, he asks her to 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:20.000 read his books. 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.240 I read his book Secret Life of the Threat, and 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:26.960 then just before I had the hypnosis, he told me 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.040 to read his books again, so I read them again, 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.640 and then all the way in our communication, he was 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.520 very clear that it was alien and so on, and 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:39.720 I didn't mind that because I've never minded people having 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:44.760 their own opinions. I still had an agnostic view of it. 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:50.000 Even before her first hypnosis session, Emma was versed in 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:52.880 Jacob's analysis of the alien abduction. 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:57.120 Phenomenon up until the hypnosis. I still have my own view, 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.640 but I did understand Jacobs's view, and I'd read his books, 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:02.120 and I knew that's how I seal it. 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.680 For season one of Strange Rivals, I interviewed Carol Rainey, 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.920 who was Bud Hopkins research partner and was married to 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:15.160 Hopkins for a decade. In our interview, she talked about 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:19.080 how people who believe they were experiencers were influenced by 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:23.480 the researcher even before their first hypnosis session. While she's 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.680 talking specifically about Hopkins here, you will see that this 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:28.960 dynamic applies to Jacob's as well. 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.760 So the new possible abductee would be sent as kit 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.480 of material, and I think it varies sometimes, but it 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:42.840 was information about the abduction phenomenon. They had also often 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:47.240 read one, two, or three of his books previously, so 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:51.760 when people would first call and begin talking to him, 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.160 he could go on easily for an hour with each 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.880 person over the phone, and he would often tell them 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.080 about the new cases that he was working on. And 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.680 the cue that sends to the person on the other 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:08.879 end of the phone is that if you want the 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:15.000 attention of his television personality in Bud Hopkins, you might 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:20.960 do well consciously or unconsciously to have your own memories 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.560 that were similar to the ones he was interested in. 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:28.800 And that is where the tailoring of tales began, long 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:32.320 before he even met the people. You don't have to 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:37.280 lead anybody under hypnosis after that, they already know which 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.959 way to go, and that happened often. 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.919 Emma's hypnosis sessions with Jacob's began in December two thousand 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.440 and four because she lived in New Zealand and he 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:54.359 taught at Temple, which is in Philadelphia. These sessions were 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:56.040 conducted over the telephone. 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.919 Hey said that it would be fine to over the phone. 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.080 I had had no idea that you could do hypnosis 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:08.720 over the phone. And basically I was just in my apartment. 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:13.040 I was on my bed, relaxed. I had the phone 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.720 next to the bed. I used to lie down on 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:20.200 the bed because he does a relaxation exercise, which is 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.040 easier to do because your body gets really heavy and 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.520 so on so forth. And then I just had the 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.240 phone and he would just talk to me on the 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:32.280 phone and he would do the induction. And I discovered 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:36.840 that I'm very, very hypnotizable, so it was very easy 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.760 for me to go into that state. He had told 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.280 me that it would just be a relaxed state, that 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.960 it was like a relaxation exercise. But when he did it, 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.720 I realized I went far deeper and it was quite 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.119 a different state. And I was aware of that the 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:54.440 first time that he did it. 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.639 You might think that conducting hypnosis over the phone is unusual, 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.080 and you'd be right. In fact, it is far from 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:04.080 ethical practice. 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:08.000 You're taking them me, you're inducting them, and then you're 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:09.879 bringing them out of it. But to do something like 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:15.560 that over the telephone is just completely unprofessional. I'm doctor 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:18.480 Karen Stallsner, and I'm a linguist. 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.480 I'm an author, an academic researcher, and a host of 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:27.320 the Monster Talk podcast. Some people think with hypnosis that 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.360 it's a kind of a truth serum and that it's 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:34.240 going to be this window into a person's past, but 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:37.120 it just doesn't function like that. If the memories aren't there, 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:40.159 the person is just going to resort to their imagination. 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.800 But certainly doing that kind of thing over the telephone 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:47.159 is just not standard practice. And the fact that he 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:53.040 had her undergo hours of this hypnosis as well, you'd 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:55.560 be very exhausted by the end of that, and I 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.840 just don't think you could possibly get any truth out 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:00.560 of a situation like that. 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.120 David Jacobs recorded these telephone hypnosis sessions. 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.359 He recorded them and then he would make a copy 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.199 of the tapes, and then he'd nail me the tapes, 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.760 and then later he also gave me digital copies of 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.920 the hypnosis sessions. I was researching my own experiences, and 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:23.440 I told him that I also wanted copies of the 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:27.160 hypnosis sessions because I thought that was going to help 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:30.439 me to understand what was going on with my experiences. 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.760 And it was through listening to these tapes that Emma 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.720 eventually understood the nature of her hypnosis sessions with Jacobs. 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.760 But we're getting ahead of ourselves. Emma generously allowed me 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.359 to use parts of her tape hypnosis sessions in this 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:49.920 podcast to show what happened. This is how her sessions 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:50.679 with him. Worked. 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:57.920 He asked me to send him details of some events 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:00.639 that he could do hypnosis on, and I would stand 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.119 him details of three or four events, or sometimes a 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.879 dream or something like that, and then he would choose 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:12.040 which one of those he wanted to work with. We'd 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:14.840 kind of talk about it together, but he basically made 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:19.120 the decision, and then he would do the hypnotic induction, 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:22.840 and then he would start talking about the event, and 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:25.840 I would start to go back and remember it, and 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.280 this would be a real event or a real dream, 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:31.880 but then the hypnosis would start to weave the story 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:35.159 into that real event or dream, and then at the 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:38.399 end as we came out and he'd ask me again 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:41.840 about the tail end of the real event. So I 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.960 think that's partly why it felt incredibly real, is it 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:48.880 was woven into an actual, real event or a real 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:54.120 dream and it became indistinguishable. So it felt really, really real. 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:59.840 And this story that he wove into her hypnosis sessions, well, 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:02.880 it was in keeping with his theories about the methods 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:06.720 and purpose of alien abductions. This was the subject of 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:10.640 his nineteen ninety eight book The Threat, The Secret Agenda, 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:13.760 What the aliens really want and how they plan to 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:17.159 get it. Here he gives a quick summary of his thoughts, 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:19.000 read by an actor. 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:23.720 We now know that the abduction phenomenon as a whole 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:27.000 is not for the purpose of research. The evidence suggests 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:30.520 that all the alien procedures serve a reproductive agenda, and 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:33.439 at the heart of the reproductive agenda is the breeding program, 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.160 in which the aliens collect human sperm and eggs, incubate 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:41.159 fetuses and human hosts to produce human alien hybrids, and 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:44.480 cause humans to mentally and physically interact with these hybrids 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:46.120 for the purposes of their development. 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:51.000 And why are they doing this well. The book is 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:54.880 called The Threat. Jacob's vision is a long ways from 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:57.520 John Max's theories of spiritual awakening. 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:01.680 All the evidence seems to suggest that the integration into 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:05.040 human society is the alien's ultimate goal, and all their 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:08.080 efforts and activities appear to be geared toward complete control 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:09.000 of humans on Earth. 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:13.879 This is the story that Jacob's wove into the hypnosis 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:19.040 sessions with Emma. It is a harrowing story of sexual violence, threats, 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:19.879 and fear. 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:24.240 Look at the time, while I was having hypnosis, it 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:27.560 was very intensive. They were like five or six hours long. 0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:31.240 It was regular, and he was in constant contact with 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:34.600 me in between, and I lost my ability to think 0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:39.840 critically during that period. But looking back, and once I 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:42.760 went back and listened to the hypnosis sessions, it was 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:48.480 very clear that he was deliberately, in my opinion, implanting 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:53.320 false memories that he wanted that he could then use 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:53.960 in his book. 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:58.679 But the characters to sort of know here is that. 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:02.439 And they were using you for sort of a variety 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:06.920 of reproductive events. And what they did not want to 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:11.600 have is a mixing of sperm. You see with the 0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:15.760 hybrid guy, because the hybrid has his sperm and anybody 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:18.879 else's got his, and so that's the thing to avoid. 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:22.840 The reason I know this is because I had exactly 0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:28.040 this situation before, and one woman who was married. 0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:30.560 That the guy had had a bad sectomy, sure, and 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:34.359 she was about to have an affair. 0:24:35.359 --> 0:24:39.920 With some other guy he met, and they did. 0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:42.360 Not like that at all. 0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:47.840 That was they prevented it from happening, and they admonitor 0:24:47.920 --> 0:24:52.480 her and they and I mean, it was a big deal, 0:24:52.680 --> 0:24:55.760 a big deal, and you knew it was for it 0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:57.000 was for that reason. 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:02.200 He was licked hearing me while I was hypnotized, telling 0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:05.159 me what I was going to remember, telling me what 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:10.440 other people remembered, explaining what was going on. I was 0:25:10.520 --> 0:25:13.280 all just going into my head while I was under hypnosis, 0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:17.440 and then I was remembering things along those lines. So 0:25:17.720 --> 0:25:21.200 I think he was intensively coaching me to come out 0:25:21.320 --> 0:25:25.480 with a story that he wanted that fit his theories. 0:25:25.760 --> 0:25:28.560 And I think also that he was going to use 0:25:28.640 --> 0:25:29.320 in his book. 0:25:31.680 --> 0:25:35.159 Even for UFO researchers as prominent as David Jacobs and 0:25:35.200 --> 0:25:39.200 Bud Hopkins, it was financially necessary to continue to write 0:25:39.280 --> 0:25:43.760 books because they couldn't simply repackage the same theories again 0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:47.520 and again. This need created a dynamic of ever more 0:25:47.600 --> 0:25:53.000 sensational accounts. Here is Carol Rainey again talking specifically about 0:25:53.040 --> 0:25:56.920 Bud Hopkins, but about a situation that applied to Jacobs 0:25:57.000 --> 0:25:58.719 as well, as she acknowledges. 0:25:58.800 --> 0:26:02.760 At the end, we went to talk to a couple 0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:05.720 of editors at publishing houses. This must have been the 0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:10.120 early two thousands, and what they said categorically, don't come 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:13.880 back unless you have a brand new, never seen before. 0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:15.760 Idea for a UFO book. 0:26:16.000 --> 0:26:21.280