WEBVTT - Dr. Brittany White on ending mass incarceration 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:10.680 Welcome to Righteous Convictions with Jason Flam the podcast where 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:12.560 I speak with people who see the wrong in the 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.440 world and are driven to make it right. My guest 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.919 today spent five years in prison, an eye opening journey 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:23.000 that gave her firsthand knowledge of the phenomenon of mass incarceration, 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:26.920 an a masked system of people that society does not 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:29.920 know how to help. But Brittany White believes we can 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:34.920 do better. We have to feed people better, we have 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:40.159 to improve our education system, our healthcare system. As society, 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:44.559 we have to take ownership of how we have failed 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:49.919 people and not criminalize people for our the trauma and 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.519 the impact of not having their needs meant by the 0:00:53.640 --> 0:01:00.800 government in this country. Her experience in a prison system 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:04.160 propelled her on a tireless mission to address the corruption 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:06.880 and despair she witnessed on a day to day basis. 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:28.080 Right now on Righteous Convictions, Britney White, Welcome back to 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.280 Righteous Convictions Today. We're speaking with someone who used the 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.520 experience of serving time as the impetus for her life's work, 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:38.479 which is overthrowing the prison system. Upon her release from 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:42.279 Alabama's Julia Tutt Wilder Prison, she started from the ground 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.080 up as a volunteer organizer in Dallas. She's now the 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:50.240 decarceration director at Live Free USA as well as get This, 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:54.000 an organizing fellow at Harvard Law School's New Institutes End 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:58.720 Mass Incarceration, and she's an active voice for formerly incarcerated 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.440 Black women. And she'll tell us more about all the 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:03.080 other great work she's doing to make the world a 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:06.640 better place. So, without further ado, it's my great pleasure 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:11.760 and my distinct honor to introduce Brittany White. Britt, welcome 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:16.600 to Righteous Convictions. I appreciated Jason glad to be here. Everybody. 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:20.440 Britt You're You're awesome, first of all, but let's go 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:22.359 back to the beginning with they're doing the movies where 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:24.040 it gets all foggy and they you know, they do 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:28.320 the flashbacks. So you were originally from Ohio but grew 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:31.720 up in Texas. Right, that's correct. I'm from Dayton, Ohio. 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:34.840 Shout out to all the Buck guys who are tuning 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:39.440 in and tell me about your upbringing. Your parents both 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.400 achieved master's degrees. Right, so you have a sounds like 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.360 you have an interesting family history. I mean, I have 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:49.239 a dynamic family. I think part of my journey in 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.760 life is that I have been fortunate to be born 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:56.680 into a family that is deeply loving and loyal to 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.560 each other. And our experience in this world as black 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.440 people from the Midwest, were from a little city, and 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:08.440 we grew up under a lot of systemic policies that 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:12.360 were just detrimental to live in a life of dignity. 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:17.040 And my parents have been together almost forty two years, 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.959 and through that experience, I have watched them both get 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:25.960 their undergraduate, their master degrees, excel in their careers. And 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.840 as soon as we moved to Texas and nine seven, 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.920 less than a year later, my dad woke up and 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:34.160 had a seizure and it was discovered he had a 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:39.640 malignant brain soomor And from that experience, watching my dad 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:43.880 go from making six figures too not even a third 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:49.360 of his salary almost it was just very difficult. And 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.800 if it was not for our faith community, Concorde Church 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.120 now here in Dallas, Texas that embraced us, my family 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.720 would have had to go back to Ohio to create 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.920 us a sports system. And so being young, watching my 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:10.840 parents navigate the failure that is America's healthcare system gave 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:14.880 me a very unhealthy relationship with money. And it begins 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.400 to appear to me, just like many people I've talked 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:21.679 to who are justice impacted across the country, that money 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:24.680 was a solution to all my problems, and so it 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:28.159 put me on a pathway where my pursuit of money 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.679 make was my main focus, and it led me down 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:36.320 a path to a penitentiary in the state of Alabama. Yeah, 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.880 now that's obviously a key part of your story and 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:43.359 your journey. Right. So you were working at Verizon in 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.840 Buckhead in Atlanta, but as you said, like a young 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.400 ambitious person that you were, you were also looking to 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:54.720 try to get ahead, and that led you to get 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.640 involved with some marijuana stuff, right, tell us about that. 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:04.159 I was arrested in the state of Alabama in January 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.520 of two thousand nine on a cold freezing night for 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:11.400 trafficking marijuana on I twenty in the state of Alabama 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:15.760 and a very little rural county called Saint Clair County 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:20.880 that sits right outside of Birmingham and reminds you of Mulberry. 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:25.599 And what I will say about that experience and that 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.159 time period in my life is that we have to 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:33.320 be careful how we characterize people who have been in 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:37.039 the justice system in their crime, because we begin to 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.760 associate a lifestyle with what they went to prison for. 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:46.839 And I, for example, was involved in many different things 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.720 in that point of my life, in the pursuit of money, 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:53.520 and it just so happened that with this particular instance, 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.480 I was arrested for trafficking marijuana, and that's what I 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:03.640 was to prison for. And people can put whatever interpretation 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.839 behind that that they felt comfortable with. But like I said, 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:13.600 with that lifestyle, it's more so about the pursuit of 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:15.560 a of an ends to a means, which for me 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.039 was working like you said at the time at Verizon, 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:21.440 but also just involved in a number of different things 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:25.159 trying to accumulate capital. Well, so let's talk about the 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.760 marijuana trafficking charge, so cannabis would call it these days, 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:33.760 but anyway, um, so, what was the charge trafficing marijuana 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.320 in the state of Alabama, A Class A felony. What 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.720 was the quantity? I will not say the quantity. It 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.200 was over fifty pounds and under a hundred Okay, so 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:46.880 it was not a small amount, because we know there 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:50.520 are people in America serving life for small amounts of marijuana. 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.240 Can I clarify that Jason. Of course, when people say 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:56.880 that it was not a small amount of marijuana, I 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:01.000 just want people to know who engage in marijuana legally 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.840 or illegally, all across the country. It is not being 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:09.040 transported in small amounts, no matter if you just purchase 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:14.920 a graham from whoever you indulge with. It is transported 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:20.160 just like any other good and large amounts. And so, I, 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.320 as an advocate of the criminal legal system, do not 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.720 like to make hierarchy. I don't say violent, I don't 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:32.240 say no violent. I don't hierarchy crimes or anything like that. 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.920 It's not helpful to the conversation understood. I mean, look, 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:41.160 you're absolutely right to point out that the pot you know, 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:43.520 I called pot whatever whoever you want to call it, 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.240 it has to come from somewhere, right, Somebody brought it 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.160 to somewhere in order for you to be able to 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:52.360 enjoy it. And that's really what it comes down to it. So, okay, 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.080 let's get back to your story. So here you are, 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.280 all of a sudden, how old were you at the 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.000 time that you're arrested. I had just twenty three the 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:06.480 month before, and you were charged with this trafficking and 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:10.560 your parents from what I understand, advise you to take 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:12.640 a plea? What kind of plea did they offer you? 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.640 Every single person in my life who cared about me 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:23.160 advised me to take a plea. And I'm almost ashamed 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.440 to say what my plea was because I just know 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.760 I'm going to be judged so harshly. But I believe 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:34.439 I was offered. So I want to clarify traffic in 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:37.199 marijuana and to state that Alabama has a mandatory three 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:42.440 years sentence. So under the ninety four crime deals, those 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:47.040 harmful policies, Alabama carries one of those mandatory minimums. I 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.839 believe I was offered eighteen months on a ten year 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:55.720 sentence serving the rest storing probation, so very similar to 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:59.439 what I was sentenced to um a split sentence once 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:04.320 I lost trial. So everyone advised you, but you you 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:09.839 took a stand um and said tell me the thought process. Yeah, 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:13.840 I mean a lot of it was youthful ignorance and 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:18.439 and knowing absolutely nothing about the criminal legal system. The 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.760 way that my car was searched when I was pulled over, 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.679 the state trooper actually had a dog in the car 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:29.880 and he illegally searched my trunk when he could have 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:33.199 just pulled out the dog and went through procedure, and 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:38.400 so I had to paid attorneys throughout that process, and 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:41.240 both of them urged me to take a plea. I 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:47.800 felt the search could be thrown out. And one of 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:53.240 my mistakes was going to get my attorney from Birmingham, 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:57.560 the larger main city that was close to St. Clair County. 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:02.840 But it is very fratern and brother in law in 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.480 these small rural counties, and you should always get a 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:09.760 lawyer from that county who was in the circle, in 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:14.559 the network and passing favors with the fraternity of lawyers 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:18.440 from that small area. And because my attorney wasn't in 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:24.280 the loop, it was not a good trial. As you 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:28.280 can see, I was found guilty and sentenced to well 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:47.040 later sentence the twenty years Split Five Righteous Convictions with 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:50.160 Jason flam is super excited and honored to have the 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:54.480 support of a great organization like Galaxy Gives. Galaxy Gives 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.880 leads the filmthropic efforts of the Novocrats family. They invest 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:01.520 in organizations, campaigns, and lead ters who are directly impacted 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.960 by and working to dismantle the current punitive justice system. 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:08.280 Galaxy Gives also builds power for the community's most harmed 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:12.360 by mass incarceration and forges transformative solutions for responding to 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.560 that harm. They envisioned a society where the structural barriers 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.920 created by racism, poverty, and inequality are no more, where 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:23.160 instead all people have the dignity, freedom, and rights needed 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:36.760 to thrive. First of all, I was arrested in January 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:40.480 and it took me six weeks to make bond, so 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:44.120 I was released in March. So during that time period 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:48.839 of my life, I have lost my apartment, I've lost 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:52.400 my job. I have to go face my parents and 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.920 be accountable for the fact that I've been engaging in 0:11:55.880 --> 0:12:00.000 all this illicit activity. And I have some mentally prepared 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.480 air myself to fight for my freedom, which I was 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:08.440 not equipped to do. And so October I finally go 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:12.679 to trial, and it was such a quick process. I 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.400 was completely thrown off. Once it was determined I wasn't 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:19.520 going to take a plea, we immediately struck a jury, 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.360 went to trial. I remember one black woman juror who 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:26.280 would never look me at my face. So I do 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.640 not have a jury of my peers. And I was 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:32.480 found guilty and my mom was the only one to 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.080 go through that experience with me, because I went to 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:41.080 trial so quickly, I didn't even have the opportunity to 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:45.200 tell anybody else in my support system for them to 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:50.840 walk through that with me. And now you are tried, convicted, 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:56.480 and sentenced to no no, no, no no, because Alabama, 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.800 it's not that generous. They left me in the county 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:06.480 jail in October through January while my judge decided what 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.280 he was going to do with me. And anybody who 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:13.640 knows anything about being incarcerated, county jail time is not 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:18.080 designed to hold people for long periods of time, so 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:23.160 county time is grueling. And so in January I was 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:27.200 sentenced to twenty years. Then I was held another like 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.320 seven months before I finally got to go to prison. 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.720 I mean to hear you say, if you finally got 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.320 to go to prison, that almost Yeah. It really does 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:42.680 put a fine point on just how terrible the jail 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:45.760 must have been. And it's weird because britt, I feel 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:50.400 like people most people think of it as jail being 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:56.640 a more benign term and more benign place than prison, right, 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.600 But in fact, what those of us who work in 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:04.119 this movie and know is that jails are inherently more dangerous, 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:10.960 chaotic um and well just to say disgusting, right then, 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.880 even some of the worst Max security friends. So yeah, 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.280 can you just shine a light on that first before 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:20.320 we get to the really other important parts of your story. Yeah, 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:23.240 I mean, I do think it's important for me to 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:27.520 talk about my county jail experience. And in Pale City 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:32.400 County Jail, what was especially hard for me is you 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.520 have to prepare to go to prison for a long 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.239 period of time because in prison it is very difficult 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:45.440 to get anything in. So the state of Alabama allows 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.240 you to bring like what we call your whites and 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:51.640 your hygiene, so you can take in so many T shirts, 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:56.239 so many pairs of panties, so many bras without underwire, 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.760 all of your hygiene, your shampoo, your conditioner. I'm a 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.320 black woman with natural hair, so I have to use 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:08.080 very specific things on my hair. The captain at that 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:11.720 county jail, Captain Moss, would not allow my family to 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:16.520 send me anything to take to prison with me. She 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:20.360 would lie to us explicitly and say they're gonna throw 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.560 it all the way once you get to prison. And 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.840 that is just simply not true. And I'm talking about 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.000 stuff that I would have needed to set to set 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:33.560 me up to do five years, and she completely robbed 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:37.120 me of that opportunity. In addition to that, the jail 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:41.560 was disgusting, like the sewage will back up in the 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.160 middle of the hall and just still out all types 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:50.640 of feces and filth. Trying to get an actual person 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:54.360 to come back there and give you medical attention was 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:59.880 just almost impossible. And so I was very relieved to 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.600 finally get to prison number one, to get some yard time, 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.160 to be able to feel the sun on my skin, 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.040 to be able to move my body and begin to 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.760 get a routine going so I could get about the 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.400 business that during my time. And so then you were 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.920 finally sent to the Julia Tutt Wilder Prison for Women. 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:22.520 And there were a couple of very noteworthy things that 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:24.920 we're going on there that further opened up your eyes 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:28.000 to some systemic prison injustices and that's probably not even 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.560 strong enough word, and the urgent need for reform. The 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.360 first one had to do with Priya the Prison Rape 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:38.160 Elimination Act. Tell us about what you saw there. Yeah, 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:41.440 number one, there was a young lady who was pregnant 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:46.320 by one of the correctional officers, which started a huge 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:52.000 sexual investigation with the federal government and Priya. It was 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:55.760 very scandalous when I first got to the prison. And 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.120 what they would do is whenever a correctional officer was 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:03.200 accused of having a sexual encounter with one of the prisoners, 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:06.360 they will put them in the watch tower. And that 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.199 was what we used to call solitary confinement for the 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:14.680 correctional officers after they would have accusations of sleeping with 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:18.720 the young ladies who were incarcerated there. Number two, what 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:23.560 was notable is there was an HIV a's dorm. There's 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:28.760 a dormitory style that we live at the prison, and 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:33.199 first you go into a dorm where everybody goes through 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:36.399 their health screens and the women who would be found 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:41.760 HIV are positive for AIDS were actually confined to be 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:46.080 dorm until they won their federal lawsuit and were able 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:50.320 to come out into population. Okay, so so you were 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.919 sent to twenty to life, but you were freed after 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.240 five What happened to get you home after five years? 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.800 And then let's talk about the transition. Yeah, five years 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.000 is my full sentence. So I was sentenced to what 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.840 is called a split sentence in the state of Alabama. 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:09.560 If I got into any trouble while I was incarcerated 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:13.680 during my five years, my judge had the discretion over 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.359 me to pull my split and put me on a 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:20.399 straight twenty. I also had the option to continue to 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.960 to petition him to let me come home early. He 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.760 denied every single one of my requests. I served five 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:31.520 full years in prison with jail credit and came home 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:36.960 September sixteen, and I came back to Texas where my 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:42.320 parents lived, to rebuild and restart my life. So you 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:48.000 come out, and now your priorities have I mean made 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.200 a radical shift, right. I mean you talked about before 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:54.280 how because of your father's experience, your father's horrendous experience, 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:58.960 how that shaped you as a young woman to want 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:02.760 to make money to help yourself and your family avoid 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:06.879 ever having this awful experience that you have with the 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.240 health care system or the other things that come when 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.680 you don't have access to ready cash. Tell us what 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.160 happened and what you started doing and and all the 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.120 things that have led you to this place that you're 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:22.520 in now. Yeah, So when I come home, I left 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:25.720 for twenty three year old young woman, and I came 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:29.440 home getting ready to turn twenty eight. So I'm now 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:34.440 I'm much older, and while I've been incarcerated, my grandmother 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.960 has died, my uncle died, my great grandmother has died, 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.960 And my relationship with my family is a little strange 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:46.960 because now I'm emotionally cold, because that's what prison teaches you, 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:50.520 to turn off your feelings. Plus my clothes are old, 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.879 my car is gone, and I pretty much don't have anything. 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:00.639 And so everybody coming home deserves the support system. And 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:02.679 I had more than a lot of people have because 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:05.280 I had my parents who allowed me to come there 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.960 and with their support, get my life back together. So 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:11.840 I got a couple of jobs by lying on my 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:15.359 applications saying I didn't have a felony. I'm reporting for 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:19.240 probation every month um. Even before I had a job, 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:23.400 my probation fees started stacking up so high that at 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.440 one point one of my bosses actually gave me over 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:30.479 seven hundred dollars to bring my probation fees back current 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:33.040 so I wouldn't get violated and go back to prison. 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.119 And when we talk about like how can we really 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:41.879 help justice impacted people come back into our community successfully, 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:44.040 we have to be willing to give them that type 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:46.400 of support, like the type of love that says, no 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.399 matter what you got, I'm not gonna let you fail 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.200 and you fall off. And when we talk about why 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:56.360 people go into the system, it's often because they themselves 0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:00.000 feel like they have to figure out every single problem 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:03.160 that life brings to them. They don't have a support 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:07.280 system to wield some of these challenges. And that's what 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.600 organizing became for me. It didn't just teach me how 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.720 to advocate for the policies for the people who I 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.199 left behind, who I love, my state family, who are 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:19.720 doing fifty years, who are doing life, who are doing 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:23.520 life without possibility of parole, but also to advocate for 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:27.760 myself that there was a standard of dignity for how 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:30.679 I wanted to live my life and being able to 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:34.000 have the tools and the support system to navigate those 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:39.119 challenges became very important to me. So myself as a 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:43.639 college dropout, I sit here and think about how you 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:50.680 got from prison in Alabama to basically be opposite right 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:54.440 to being an organizing fellow at Harvard Law School in 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:58.760 the space of seven short years. How does that even work? 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:04.320 It's amazing. I mean, I give our glory to the 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:08.680 Most High. My mom and my dad made it very 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:10.960 clear that they pray that I will still be able 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:15.840 to have a future. And it's really about relationships. The 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.760 people who I have come across, who have walked with me, 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:23.639 who have been mentors, who have been boards of advisors, 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:27.919 has just truly blown my mind and it's given me 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:32.280 a confidence. It's giving me clarity about my purpose. And 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:36.200 as long as I continue to be authentic and speak 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:39.679 my truth, the Most High just opens the doors and 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:41.919 I just continue to try to find the courage to 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:45.520 walk through. But I have to give a special shout 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:49.119 out to my Live Free family. I am also the 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:53.919 decarceration director for the Live Free organization, which focuses on 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:57.720 gun violence prevention and decarceration work. And that's how I 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:00.399 found the work. I'm at a past or at my 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:04.720 church who was connected to the Live Free network. They 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:08.320 invited me in, took me too like a training at 0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:11.600 Live Free in Oakland, and it was like walking into 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:14.880 a room full of people who were my tribe who 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:17.800 gave me like a consciousness in a way of thinking 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:21.160 that I didn't know exists, Like I don't come from 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:24.960 the Bay or area, of the country where I remember 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:28.560 like seeing a community organizer or knowing that it was 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:31.719 even a profession. Most of the people in my life 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:35.240 watched me on social media and they're like, I can't 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:38.040 say exactly what it is you do. I just know 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:40.800 it's important. And those are the people I want to 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:59.440 continue to organize and build power with, especially black women. Oh, 0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:04.720 talk to us as well, Brett, about your work to 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:08.280 end mass incarceration and even I mean, you consider yourself 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:11.480 an abolitionist, right, and that's an interesting term. I don't 0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:18.800 think most people understand what that means. So tell us 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:25.159 please about your your vision for prison abolition and and 0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:27.639 then to mass in carceration and are they the same 0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:32.520 thing and what's the nuance there? Yeah, I think before 0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:36.240 I even talk about abolition, I would say that America 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:40.320 is founded by a set of twins. And it's the 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:45.479 very popular twin of racism that many people are familiar with, 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:52.280 but the less popular twin sister is capitalism. And the 0:24:52.320 --> 0:24:55.480 way that we value in the relationship we have with 0:24:55.560 --> 0:25:00.959 money in this country is set precedent that some people 0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:08.000 are disposable, and because they're disposable, we have an unequitable 0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:12.199 distribution of wealth in this country, and we have a 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:15.440 lot of black and brown bodies that are behind the wall, 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:19.960 and that is to feed and fuel capitalism and keep 0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:24.879 big corporations rich. It is not just because somebody hates 0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:28.040 the color of my skin. It's people out here who 0:25:28.080 --> 0:25:31.199 have no problem with black folks, but they want to 0:25:31.240 --> 0:25:35.600 hold onto their wealth. And so as the abolitionists, I 0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:39.360 believe the current system as it exists is not redeemable. 0:25:39.640 --> 0:25:44.680 We need something completely new, and it scares people because 0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:48.320 they are afraid of their own imagination and what it 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:53.080 means to create a system where everybody can have dignity. 0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:56.440 But if you have ever seen a homeless person who 0:25:56.480 --> 0:25:59.880 was mentally ill screaming at the top of their lan 0:26:00.200 --> 0:26:03.399 on a corner and you wanted to help, but you 0:26:03.520 --> 0:26:08.320 absolutely had no tools or services to offer that person, 0:26:08.840 --> 0:26:11.960 you can understand and imagine why we need to create 0:26:12.119 --> 0:26:17.679 a new vehicle to save all God's children because nobody. 0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:22.000 I don't believe anybody is expendable in our society, and 0:26:22.080 --> 0:26:24.959 my faith tells me that, and my purpose keeps me 0:26:25.000 --> 0:26:29.560 working to build something new for that value. So we 0:26:29.680 --> 0:26:33.639 need to redirect the resources to helping these people on 0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:37.680 the front end and to providing the care and treatment 0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:39.680 that they neither. We can't do that while we continue 0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:42.359 to incarcerate more people than any country in the history 0:26:42.400 --> 0:26:46.439 of the world. So the question is abolition. There's a 0:26:46.520 --> 0:26:50.159 very controversial term. What does prison abolition mean to you? 0:26:50.200 --> 0:26:52.560 Because people would say, even progressive people would say, but 0:26:52.600 --> 0:26:55.000 what are we gonna do if a guy goes and 0:26:55.040 --> 0:26:59.520 shoots up at school, right, or a church or a restaurant? 0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:04.199 Um are we really no, no, not put that person away? 0:27:04.720 --> 0:27:11.600 You know, It's always interesting to me that people immediately 0:27:11.800 --> 0:27:16.320