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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Wednesday, October eighth, and yes,

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Speaker 2: we have a stacked night of headlines. I'm Stephanie Leidecker

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Speaker 2: and I head up KT Studios where we make true

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Speaker 2: crime podcasts and documentaries and I get to do that

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Speaker 2: with Body Moven and Courtney Armstrong. We have the whole

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Speaker 2: gang here right now. Because listen, a lot going on today.

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Speaker 2: That's an understatement. A suspect has been named in the

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Speaker 2: infamous Palisades fire that took place back in January. New

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Speaker 2: details on that is evolving real time, but we definitely

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Speaker 2: want to break it down.

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Speaker 3: Also, there's new case.

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Speaker 2: There's new information reserving around the seventeen year old in

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Speaker 2: New Jersey who's accused of literally running over to teenagers,

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Speaker 2: which again is a story that's evolving, but hopefully we

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Speaker 2: get some real information fast. Also, that Wisconsin man who

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Speaker 2: sacrificed hisself for his pregnant sister, I mean, that was

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Speaker 2: and is one of the most tragic heroic stories, so

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Speaker 2: we're going to get some new details on that as well.

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Speaker 2: And trial attorney and Emmy Award winning host Michael Bryant

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Speaker 2: is back. You'll remember him. He's been with us many times.

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Speaker 2: And here's here at breakdown all of the latest in

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Speaker 2: wait for it, the Karen Reid trial and updates to come,

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Speaker 2: Dun Dun Dune, Dun Dun Silvil trials left and right.

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Speaker 2: We have Turtle Boy having a trial, so he's been

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Speaker 2: in the trenches and is going to bring us all

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Speaker 2: of that and more on our return to Massachusetts, if

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Speaker 2: you will. And this Palisades thing is also, you know,

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Speaker 2: happening real time. And even as we were coming on

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Speaker 2: the air, Boddy, you were getting a little bit of

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Speaker 2: an update about Diddy and his potential new placement, so

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Speaker 2: we maybe will unpack a bit of that too if

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Speaker 2: we get new information while we're on the air.

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Speaker 3: So we are happy you're here with us.

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Speaker 2: Join us eight eight eight three one crime or leave

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Speaker 2: us a talkback, or you could always hit us up

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Speaker 2: on our socials. Courtney Armstrong, where should we begin, Well,

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Speaker 2: the Palisades fire and there has not been a lot

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Speaker 2: of news for quite a bit of time, but it

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Speaker 2: was just released that a man named Jonathan Rinderneck, He's

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Speaker 2: a twenty nine year old He's been arrested and charged

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Speaker 2: with starting the Lachman Fire, and that is what led

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Speaker 2: to the deadly destructive Palisades fire in Los Angeles this year.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure everyone can imagine seeing on the news, it

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Speaker 4: was simply apocalyptic that fire did began spreading in January

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Speaker 4: seventh and ultimately became one of the most devastating wildfires

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Speaker 4: in Los Angeles County history. Twelve people were killed, thousands

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Speaker 4: of structures were destroyed, and it's believe that the initially

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Speaker 4: sparked smaller fire, the Lochman one, was smoldering underground for

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Speaker 4: days before reigniting due to high winds, which I honestly

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Speaker 4: didn't even know that was a possibility of physics.

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Speaker 3: Apparently there was always rumor of that.

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Speaker 2: And you know, there's been so many miss pieces of

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Speaker 2: information about how this could have started, right, It could

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Speaker 2: have just been a wind event. It was global warming,

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Speaker 2: it was going to be the winds that suddenly caught

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Speaker 2: onto a cigarette butt. Who knows, but you know, the

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Speaker 2: devastation is pretty undeniable. And if this is in fact

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Speaker 2: the guy, it shocks me that would actually be a person.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why that surprises you so much. So

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Speaker 2: I know this is an ongoing investigation, but I could

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Speaker 2: say personally, I would really like answers.

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Speaker 4: Sure, the suspect we know was arrested at his home

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Speaker 4: in Melbourne, Florida. That happened just yesterday, and he is

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Speaker 4: accused of deliberately starting that fire after midnight on New

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Speaker 4: Year's Day.

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Speaker 5: By using an open flame.

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Speaker 4: So again, if that is indeed what happened, then that

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Speaker 4: fire smoldered for a week before coming up, and that

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Speaker 4: it really was the winds were monumentally high like that. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 4: and that in and of itself was a very big

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Speaker 4: news story because it was kind of the worst of

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Speaker 4: every bit coming together, right.

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Speaker 5: I didn't know that. I didn't realize that, you know,

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Speaker 5: plants and whatnot can smolder underground and travel. I had

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Speaker 5: no idea that that was even possible until it was

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Speaker 5: so dry.

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Speaker 2: Also, so there was a dryness in the area as well,

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Speaker 2: So imagine certain conditions, you know, really the perfect storm.

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Speaker 2: If you have those winds, which they were big winds

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Speaker 2: that day, people always talk about it, but you know,

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Speaker 2: having witnessed a real time and know, I was feeling

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Speaker 2: so proud that I was able to get you know,

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Speaker 2: some lawn chairs in before the big wind event, you know,

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Speaker 2: because it was all over the news that morning, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I was personally new to the area, so

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Speaker 2: I was like, ooh, the winds. I got to get

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Speaker 2: prepared and thought we had But you know, who would

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Speaker 2: have thought what that could lead to?

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Speaker 5: Who would have I mean, unimaginable destruction.

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Speaker 4: The suspect allegedly lied to police in a January twenty

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Speaker 4: fourth interview about where he was on the day of

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Speaker 4: the fire, so that information has been released.

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Speaker 5: If convicted, he would face.

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Speaker 4: A mandatory minimum of five years and up to twenty

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Speaker 4: years in federal prison, which seems low to me.

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Speaker 3: Twelve people lost their lives.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it does seem insane to me, and I don't

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Speaker 2: think people realize. And again I don't want to make

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Speaker 2: this about me. Yes, I was in the Palisades, and

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Speaker 2: yes I've since moved to a different place because there's

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Speaker 2: a startover for everyone involved period the end. But people

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Speaker 2: have been annihilated their lives and I got it so lucky,

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Speaker 2: So not to make this about me. I mean I

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Speaker 2: have friends and neighbors that they lived in their house

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Speaker 2: for forty five years. Everything was in that house and

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Speaker 2: you leave with the shirt off your back and maybe

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Speaker 2: your cell phone and that's it. And it's also a

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Speaker 2: war zone. I mean, it's a toxic city fire. So

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Speaker 2: you go there, you know, accompanied by law enforcement or

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Speaker 2: the military to go rummage for things, and you know,

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Speaker 2: some got luckier than others, and you count your blessings

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Speaker 2: really quick, but there's no winner in it.

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Speaker 5: It's not livable.

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Speaker 2: You know, people got displaced and are still displaced because

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Speaker 2: there's also nowhere to go once you lose your stuff, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, and they're still chasing insurance and you're still

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Speaker 2: chasing where to move, and you know there's a grief

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Speaker 2: attached to that, of course, and yeah, it's stuff, but

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Speaker 2: you think about it.

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Speaker 3: Twelve people, twelve people lost their lives.

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Speaker 2: It's not a very large area and there was no

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Speaker 2: way out also, you know, so from from a real

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Speaker 2: scary perspective, you know, I didn't know that was possible.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, unimaginable is I don't know, that's the only word

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Speaker 4: that in an apocalyptic the idea that.

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Speaker 3: One person could do that.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I know, you know, it just seems

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Speaker 2: like I was really shocked today, and you know, it

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Speaker 2: kind of really makes you wonder what in the hell

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Speaker 2: is going on in your head that that seemed like

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Speaker 2: a good idea on New Year's Eve. And if in

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Speaker 2: fact this is true, and you made up a picture

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Speaker 2: and chat gpt about, you know, people running from a fire,

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Speaker 2: maybe because there was money involved. You know, we talked

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Speaker 2: about this right before coming on the air, and Body

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Speaker 2: made the assertion that his photo that he made allegedly

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Speaker 2: on chat gpt was of people running from a fire, right,

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Speaker 2: but they were there was like a dollar sign.

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Speaker 4: Involved, and yeah, it was a dystopian painting that he

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Speaker 4: asked chat gpt to create, and it was of a

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Speaker 4: city burned with on one side while hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 4: of people in poverty were trying to get past a

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Speaker 4: gigantic gate with a big dollar sign on it. So

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Speaker 4: that would if this is true, it could indicate a

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Speaker 4: lot of things. These are just communicating there's.

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Speaker 2: This like assessment of wealth, right, And I can tell

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Speaker 2: you firsthand that's like not everybody in the people move

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Speaker 2: there because it seems like it's safe and it's so beautiful,

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Speaker 2: and you know it is not that you know, it's

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Speaker 2: where people raise their families, regular people that are just

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Speaker 2: hard work and trying to figure it all out. And

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Speaker 2: they can't get it figured out. So it's pretty tragic.

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Speaker 2: And if you look at those pictures even today or

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Speaker 2: the video, I mean, it is an inferno like no other.

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Speaker 2: So if this person was intentionally doing that and this

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Speaker 2: was a planned event on Year's Eve and that it

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Speaker 2: kind of maybe went further than he thought. The suspect

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Speaker 2: allegedly lived in the Palisades at some point. There doesn't

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Speaker 2: seem to be too much about his like education and such.

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Speaker 2: And then he was also living in Hollywood kind of

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Speaker 2: by running and Canyon if you know that area at

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Speaker 2: all in Los Angeles really beautiful, but you know, I've

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Speaker 2: actually lived there too.

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Speaker 5: At some point, I feel like this arsoness is following me.

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Speaker 2: And then the you know, was later arrested in Melbourne, Florida.

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Speaker 5: So you know, what do you make of that?

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Speaker 2: You know, his parents were or our Baptist missionaries, his

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Speaker 2: you know, family or any friends that spoke of him

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Speaker 2: said he was just shy.

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Speaker 4: Right, I don't know, I think a lot more will

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Speaker 4: be coming out. Prosecutors have stated that the suspect called

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Speaker 4: nine on one to report the fire after setting it.

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Speaker 4: He additionally stayed and offered to help fight it. And

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Speaker 4: one other piece of information is also on chat DPT.

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Speaker 4: He allegedly searched whether or not you were liable for

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Speaker 4: a fire started by a cigarette, which the prosecution argues

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Speaker 4: that these were done to paint a picture of a

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Speaker 4: fire being innocently caused.

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Speaker 5: This is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We talk in

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Speaker 5: true crime all the time. I'm Body Move and I'm

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Speaker 5: here with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong and we're right

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Speaker 5: in the middle of talking about this Palisades fire. Suspect

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Speaker 5: has been arrested, and we're talking about the idea like

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Speaker 5: this was this intentional because, as Courtney just mentioned, he

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Speaker 5: like basically googled can I be held liable for starting

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Speaker 5: a fire with a lit cigarette? But okay, so here's

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Speaker 5: what happened. He was working as an uber driver, right

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Speaker 5: and after he dropped somebody off in the Pacific Calsades,

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Speaker 5: he drove to like a trailhead and as he's walking

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Speaker 5: up this trailhead, he's taking videos on his iPhone that

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Speaker 5: is overlooking the area while listening to a rap song

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Speaker 5: like a video, like it's a French rap song. His

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Speaker 5: datu is from France, so it's this French rap song

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Speaker 5: whose video included scenes of objects being set on fire.

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Speaker 5: So they're kind of yeah, they're part about it.

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Speaker 2: That the chatchy pet part of it, I also think

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Speaker 2: is interesting, like I haven't really heard that being such

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Speaker 2: a source for content, if you will, by law enforcement.

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Speaker 5: That's the first time it's.

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Speaker 2: Really been seen so glaringly, or at least because I

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Speaker 2: feel personal to it. And even him saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: the lighting up a cigarette thing, is that to cover

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Speaker 2: his tracks? Or was that just a Google search? So

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Speaker 2: he has the words tip of tongue. If he's asked

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Speaker 2: again by law enforcement, I don't know, but it does

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Speaker 2: seem like if you're lighting a fire and then calling

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Speaker 2: nine to one one and then you know, offering to

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Speaker 2: lend a hand to firefighters to fight the fire that

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Speaker 2: you set and it was a blaze. Firefighters, you know,

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Speaker 2: put their lives on the line for so long.

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Speaker 5: And we're talking.

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Speaker 3: Days in days in days in.

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Speaker 2: Days, So that just means there's an attention seek in

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Speaker 2: that that he's trying to be the hero of a

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Speaker 2: story that he clearly feels like he's not, and I

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Speaker 2: would love to do a deep dive on it. It's

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Speaker 2: hard that we got on the air and I was like,

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Speaker 2: it's gonna be fine. I do feel a little like

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Speaker 2: punched in the gut the more I talk about it,

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Speaker 2: because I get eno aged. I can see so many

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Speaker 2: people that I know deserves so much better, that have

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Speaker 2: been really messed with, And you know, the recovery is

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Speaker 2: still happening, like there's still in it. It's not like

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Speaker 2: a thing from many months ago, right, you know, there's

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Speaker 2: still kind of in the exact same place financially trying

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Speaker 2: to start over. The location itself is still toxic. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's not It's not like it's you know, let's go back.

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Speaker 2: It's a war zone.

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Speaker 5: You know that song that I was talking about that

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Speaker 5: he was listening to, the theme of that song is

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Speaker 5: despair and bitterness. Isn't that interesting?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's funny because people do spread what

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Speaker 2: they are if that's the case, right, So at a time,

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Speaker 2: that's the kickoff to the year of so much, you know, sadness.

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Speaker 2: It seems like in so many places. Isn't that so

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Speaker 2: appropriate that he had kicked it off right and.

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Speaker 5: He was kind of obsessing about this song because he

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Speaker 5: watched it nine times on a loop.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I will say this one thing positive to

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Speaker 2: take out of it, aside from the many. Yeah, let's

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Speaker 2: try to be positive things because there have been all

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Speaker 2: so many and I can personally speak to like fresh starts,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes things happen to you for you, and and

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Speaker 2: like I can be a real silver lining on lots

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Speaker 2: of people that I know and love, but so many

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Speaker 2: that don't have that luxury and they should not be

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Speaker 2: forgotten in this process. And also just to kind of

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Speaker 2: be a little prepared. You have your sneakers in your car.

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Speaker 2: The car was getting abandoned in front of it. You

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Speaker 2: can't get past it, and the fire trucks can't get up,

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Speaker 2: so people run on their feet. But when you don't,

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Speaker 2: like that's what I was thinking, Like I don't have shoes.

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Speaker 2: You should have sneakers in your car, with socks, a

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Speaker 2: pair of sweatpants. Make sure you have small bills cash,

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Speaker 2: not just like a couple twenties. Have it in singles,

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Speaker 2: literally have forty bucks if you can in singles tucked

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Speaker 2: away somewhere in your car. Obviously water is a rough

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Speaker 2: one because like I don't know how long that keeps for.

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Speaker 2: But I can promise you're thirsty and real hungry, and

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Speaker 2: you do anything for that one half a power bar

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Speaker 2: that you tossed at the side of the You know

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Speaker 2: that you didn't really take enough time to enjoy.

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Speaker 5: You want it.

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Speaker 2: So have your little go go kit in your car.

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Speaker 2: Your earth quake, not the big one, like not all

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Speaker 2: the things that we prepare for hurricanes, like a go

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Speaker 2: go kit.

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Speaker 4: Very stage advice and something I think that's good advice

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Speaker 4: for everywhere.

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Speaker 3: Are everywhere.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, gas in your car. Do not

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Speaker 2: let your terrified tank. I'm not going to go low

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Speaker 2: because that is the you don't have gas, you don't

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Speaker 2: get out.

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Speaker 5: Oh you're not talking about a game your car, No,

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Speaker 5: an your car. Just keep your tank full. Oh as

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Speaker 5: full as possible. I go to like seventeen miles left.

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Speaker 5: I am the worst. Do not do that anymore.

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Speaker 2: Promise me that to me for you, I were my

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Speaker 2: number one tip for you. Please keep your gas tank full.

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Speaker 5: Good tip. Well, when we come back. An interesting new

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Speaker 5: detail in the case involving the seventeen year old from

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Speaker 5: New Jersey accused of killing two little girls and later

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Speaker 5: Emmy Award winning host and journalist Michael Bryant joins us

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Speaker 5: to discuss the latest on Turtle Boy on Karen Read

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Speaker 5: I can't wait, Stick around Turn tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm

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Speaker 2: here with Courtney Armstrong and body move in and we're

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Speaker 2: going to turn the vibe around.

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Speaker 5: So FYI.

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Speaker 2: If you want to join the conversation, you can just

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Speaker 2: call us live as always eight eight eight three one crime.

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Speaker 2: But we really also like your talkbacks, so.

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Speaker 5: Have those coming as well.

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Speaker 2: Just download the iHeartRadio app, push the little microphone in

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Speaker 2: the top right can corner.

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Speaker 3: It's like a little icon.

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Speaker 2: If you will push that, leave us a little message

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Speaker 2: and boom, you're on the show almost real time. So

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Speaker 2: Sam and Adam are standing by because we have kind

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Speaker 2: of a juicy couple of stories that we want to unpack,

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Speaker 2: especially the developments in the Karen Wee case.

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Speaker 3: Am dying to be discussing later.

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Speaker 2: In the show, the civil stuff, and now the beef

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Speaker 2: with Turtle boy, really.

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Speaker 5: Interesting new development.

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Speaker 2: So of course trial attorney Michael Bryant will be here

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Speaker 2: to give us all the scoops. So body changing gears,

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Speaker 2: Where should we go next?

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Speaker 5: Well, really quick, I just wanted to mention. I know,

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Speaker 5: we were just talking about the Pacific Palisades Fire and

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Speaker 5: we ended it on a positive note, but I wanted

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Speaker 5: to add one more positive thing out of all this.

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Speaker 5: Victims of the Pacific Palisades Fire. Now that it's been

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Speaker 5: you know, it's officially basically a crime, right, additional funds

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Speaker 5: open up. I don't know if people know about this,

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Speaker 5: So if you are a victim, please go to Victims

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Speaker 5: dot CA dot gov and see if you qualify for

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Speaker 5: additional funds. And if you don't, that's not the only program.

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Speaker 5: There's additional programs. Just do a little research. I just

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Speaker 5: wanted to put the little feather out there for people

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Speaker 5: to pick up on. And you know, again, our hearts

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Speaker 5: are with you and where you're part of the family,

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Speaker 5: and we want you guys to be compensated and taken

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Speaker 5: care of. So please go check to see if you

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Speaker 5: are qualifying.

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Speaker 4: And I just wanted to add if you are still

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Speaker 4: you know, underwater or that feels overwhelming, which it well, sure,

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Speaker 4: ask a friend. Ask if you have that smart friend

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Speaker 4: who's good at research, they will be happy.

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Speaker 5: To help in some way. So just reach out.

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Speaker 2: I mean for sure, sometimes it just needs someone to say,

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Speaker 2: I'll take.

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Speaker 5: Care of that. You know, that's right.

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Speaker 2: I was like belaboring something and it was like, just

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Speaker 2: I want to find you the person who's going to

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Speaker 2: handle that because you get so overwhelmed.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and I can tell you that your friends want

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Speaker 5: to help you because they feel powerless, right, so if

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Speaker 5: you give them a task that might help you, it's

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Speaker 5: going to make them happy to Okay, it's every ual

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Speaker 5: beneficial everybody.

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Speaker 2: It's actually showing friendship because people want to show up

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Speaker 2: for you and they don't know how, and there's a

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Speaker 2: reciprocity in it. You would do the same, but you

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Speaker 2: it now. By the way, and this is the case

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Speaker 2: with any kind of insurance thing.

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Speaker 3: You got to do it real quick.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, do it as soon as to wait until you're

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Speaker 2: feeling for it, your feelings, none of that matters. You

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Speaker 2: got to get into the insurance thing, stat stat because

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Speaker 2: that line gets real long.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 5: In other news, do you guys remember this, We reported

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Speaker 5: on this last week the case of the seventeen year

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Speaker 5: old Vincent Battilo out of New Jersey who made that

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Speaker 5: crazy YouTube video and then went and ran down those

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Speaker 5: those seventeen year old little girls that were riding their bikes. Well,

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Speaker 5: it's taken another turn. The suspect's uncle is the police chief,

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Speaker 5: which we had talked about that there was some kind

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Speaker 5: of relation there. So he is the police chief and

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Speaker 5: his name is Christopher. Well, there's been a civil suit

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Speaker 5: filed against him from a former officer who accuses him

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Speaker 5: of retaliation and misconduct inside the department. The revelation is

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Speaker 5: raising new concerns and questions about the leadership and accountability

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Speaker 5: and not only that, but the optics within that police

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Speaker 5: force now linked to this you know, national tragedy that occurred.

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Speaker 5: So his name is its chief, Christopher Batteluo. He's the uncle,

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Speaker 5: and he's being sued by former officer Matthew o'halla. Okay.

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Speaker 5: The suit claims that Matthew o'hala was retaliated against after

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Speaker 5: he reported sexual harassment within the department. So the police

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Speaker 5: officer reports sexual harassment and then he gets retaliated against

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Speaker 5: according to this lawsuit. So in these court filings. O'hala

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Speaker 5: says he faced unfair discipline, humiliation, and emotion after alerting

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Speaker 5: supervisors that there's been misconduct going on, you know, and

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Speaker 5: some in not all, you know, but in some police

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Speaker 5: circles there's that thin blue line and you do not

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Speaker 5: cross it, right, and this would be considered possibly this

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Speaker 5: thin blue line, and this, you know, this retaliation can

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Speaker 5: be very real. Again, this is all alleged by the way.

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Speaker 5: The lawsuit was filed in Union County Superior Court alleging

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Speaker 5: violations of New Jersey's whistleblower section laws. Now it's worth noting, though,

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Speaker 5: that there are no ties with this lawsuit into what happened.

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Speaker 5: It's just that he's the police chief and he's the

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Speaker 5: uncle of this kid, right, So it's some residents are

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Speaker 5: starting to question whether or not the chiefs families tie

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Speaker 5: to this suspect could complicate public trust. Again, there's no

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Speaker 5: evidence of interference at all though, right underline.

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Speaker 4: That yes, and the chief has said that he wants

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Speaker 4: a full and transparent investigation, and he has publicly condemned

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Speaker 4: his nephew's alleged actions right in the crash.

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Speaker 2: But if you're going to be his nephew and maul

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Speaker 2: down allegedly allegedly allegedly to incredibly beautiful, highly functional to

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Speaker 2: young girls, lucky to have the chief of police as

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Speaker 2: your uncle, And wasn't he released and then re arrested?

401
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,399
Speaker 2: And there was some weird hiccup in there as well.

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00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,120
Speaker 2: I hope we're all just paying attention to it, because

403
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 2: we do believe we are definitely going to see a

404
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 2: police chief handling this extremely well and carefully because all

405
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Speaker 2: eyes are on you. I mean, because if this is true,

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Speaker 2: this is awful.

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00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 5: At this point though, I mean, I would think he

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Speaker 5: would have to like refuse himself or something, right, Like,

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00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 5: I don't know how that works, you would think, But

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00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,400
Speaker 5: I don't know if that's the.

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Speaker 4: Case, because I know residents are questioning if the chiefs,

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00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 4: the chiefs family tied to the murder could complicate the

413
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Speaker 4: trust or you know, interference in the case. But yeah,

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00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,879
Speaker 4: it does seem like refusal should be mandatory, I should

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00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:37,919
Speaker 4: be more than inappropriate.

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00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 2: And also in the other direction, you might even overcorrect

417
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Speaker 2: because you don't want anybody to think that you're being

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Speaker 2: leanient on a family member, and now that all eyes

419
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Speaker 2: are on you, you're.

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Speaker 3: Like, oh, well, really throw the book at him.

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Speaker 2: So like that doesn't work in either direction, and we

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00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 2: need indifference, we need investigation, we need objectivity, right, So

423
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,399
Speaker 2: in cases too close to the heart, you know, that

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Speaker 2: doesn't always work.

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Speaker 5: And just as a reminder for people who aren't, you know,

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00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,640
Speaker 5: totally familiar with what happened, This happened on last month,

427
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 5: at the end of the month, September thirtieth, in teens

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00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 5: Maria Neotis and Isabella Salas, they were both seventeen. They

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Speaker 5: were struck and killed by a speeding SUV while riding

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00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 5: e bikes you know those little powered bikes in Cranford,

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Speaker 5: New Jersey. Apparently they were going to get ice cream

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Speaker 5: with a family. Yep, with the family, right. So authorities

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Speaker 5: are alleging that Vincent, the other seventeen year old, he's

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00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 5: a minor in this case, he intentionally drove into them

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Speaker 5: and he was going seventy miles an hour in nessory.

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Speaker 5: So he was charged with two counts of first degree murder,

437
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,400
Speaker 5: with prosecutors citing evidence of premeditation. And he had this

438
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 5: live where he went on he was on YouTube and

439
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 5: he was saying, oh, the more you talk, the more

440
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 5: I get paid from YouTube and you know, those b

441
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 5: words and I'm you know, he was he was very

442
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 5: upset with one of the girls, that one of the victims,

443
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 5: and then this happens, and then he goes live again

444
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 5: and he's like, I'm the victim. I'm the one who's bullied.

445
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 5: I'm you know, kind of playing the victim card. And

446
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,360
Speaker 5: then of course he's been charged. So that really charged.

447
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 2: And by the way, these young girls, who are again

448
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 2: so loved mom and dad have also you know, they

449
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 2: were they were being stalked and harassed, and this this

450
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 2: little maniac, if this is true, was really on a

451
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 2: mission to cause misery for their families.

452
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:32,640
Speaker 3: And for this to be.

453
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 2: The topper after they've raised their hands to law enforcement

454
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 2: asking for help, that would be the real tragedy. If,

455
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: in fact, the connection between allegedly allegedly allegedly uncle and

456
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 2: now the accused, if that maybe made them not take

457
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: those harassment charges or the request for help because they

458
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 2: were asking for it.

459
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 5: Absolutely they had a restraining.

460
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 2: Order, you know, So is that something that's maybe looked

461
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 2: is that of another thin blue line where oh, don't

462
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 2: get so deep into that case because you know it

463
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 2: involves a family member.

464
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 5: I'm not We have no idea, but.

465
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 3: You know, well, these are things people are saying to

466
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:14,479
Speaker 3: be aware of.

467
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, well, I mean we do know as fact

468
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 4: that Maria Niotis she had filed those multiple complaints with

469
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 4: law enforcement and including stalking, online threats and harassment and yeah,

470
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 4: for months, that's right, months, and families of both victims

471
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 4: insist this was not an accident. The families are calling

472
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 4: it murder in the first degree. So we will continue

473
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 4: to update you as more information comes forth.

474
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 5: That's wally.

475
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 2: I would look I would look at that where those

476
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 2: charges or were those asks for help from law enforcement

477
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 2: were There are many attempts to have, you know, their

478
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 2: daughter's safety be taken seriously.

479
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 3: Where those looked over.

480
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: Because of the family connection is maybe the larger question,

481
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 2: because if that's the case, then these murders could have

482
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 2: been avoided.

483
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 4: That's right, and that is unspeakable if so, so again,

484
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 4: as it unfolds, we will keep you abreast. This is

485
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 4: true crime. Tonight, we are on iHeartRadio. I am Courtney

486
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 4: and I'm so so lucky to be here with Stephanie

487
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 4: Leidecker as well as a body move in and we're

488
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 4: talking about a bunch of headlines, and I wanted to

489
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 4: move on to Tyler Sadowski. This twenty year old was

490
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 4: killed when he tried to intervene to protect his seven

491
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:44,719
Speaker 4: month pregnant sister, Mikhayla. This happened after her boyfriend allegedly

492
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 4: ambushed them at their home and the boyfriend, the suspect,

493
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 4: later died by a self inflicted gunshot, and this horrifying

494
00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 4: moment was filmed and shared via snapchat. Oh my yeah, yes, yes,

495
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 4: and it sparked a removal tug of war between law

496
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 4: enforcement and social media. Mikaela has survived. Michaela delivered her

497
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 4: baby prematurely.

498
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 2: Pound plus baby by the way, so yes, you know

499
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 2: I did to cut you off, but yes, thank god

500
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 2: the baby and she's survived. But you know, the baby

501
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: was two and a half pounds when it was born,

502
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 2: So how traumatic.

503
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 5: How traumatic?

504
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 4: And her brother's dead and she's been shot, and it's

505
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 4: it's really just tragic. And this this snapchat connection, it's

506
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 4: it's feeling like there's just a proliferation of people using

507
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 4: social media as one aspect of crimes and.

508
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 5: The Internet is the new crime scene. I've been saying

509
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 5: this for almost a decade. The Internet is the new

510
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 5: crime scene.

511
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 2: We just feeling so close to it right now because

512
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 2: of the in sales podcasts and these ideas of you know,

513
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,239
Speaker 2: these single people and men, and not that all men

514
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: would do this obviously, so in this particular grouping though,

515
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 2: of the lone wolf, the person who would be an

516
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 2: inceel who was maybe on the dark web organizing or

517
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: quite the opposite, not organizing at all.

518
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 3: You're just by yourself.

519
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: In your head, and you're lonely, and you're making really

520
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 2: sick o decisions about other people's lives. Like the guy

521
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: who's allegedly allegedly lighting a match or causing a fire

522
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 2: that devastates the whole community and kills twelve people.

523
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 5: You know, that's a single.

524
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 2: Despair who has better drive, yeah, driving job, you know,

525
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: but it's just down on his luck and everybody has

526
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: it better. And same for here, this seventeen year old,

527
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 2: if in fact this is accurate, allegedly allegedly, allegedly, this

528
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: seventeen year old, he didn't want those girls to be happy.

529
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 2: He didn't want to spread kindness and have a big

530
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: life for himself. Instead, he was going on live streaming

531
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: his nonsense and his big ideas, like a hero when

532
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 2: really you're the monster and we're seeing this is like

533
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: the third case even this week that we've discussed about this.

534
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 5: It's really mind blowing.

535
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 3: And it's not on purpose. This is what this is

536
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 3: just happened.

537
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 5: What's happening.

538
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: It's notting these stories, it's right, and are these like

539
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: becoming sort of pop up stars because they're seeing others

540
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 2: doing it? Obviously the the most significant, most recent assassination

541
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 2: of Charlie Kirk, you.

542
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 3: Know, allegedly allegedly allegedly.

543
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 2: This Tyler Robinson is just just an ordinary guy that

544
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: everyone's describing as yeah, shy, didn't really know him.

545
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 5: It seems to be.

546
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 2: The mo of all of these individuals that are are

547
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 2: really devastating people beyond measure. And then at it with

548
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 2: the internet level, you know, that's being hard enough to

549
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: monitor well, although somehow his chat GPT in the Arson

550
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: case seems to be relevant. But how are they even

551
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: finding this stuff? I don't know it all just feel scared.

552
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 4: It's it is, it's scary, it's tragic. And the Barry

553
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 4: County Sheriff's Office they have acknowledged this what they're calling

554
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 4: a disturbing snapchat video of the shooting and they're working

555
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 4: with Snapchat to remove it, and Snapchat has reported that

556
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 4: they claim the removed they have removed the video when

557
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 4: it was identified, but law enforcement stresses that it's still ongoing.

558
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: And that's the thing. You can't take things back, you know.

559
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 4: We referenced earlier Bianca Devins, a seventeen year old who

560
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 4: her family still from many years later, is tortured because

561
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 4: her death pictures were put out. I mean as a

562
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 4: means of torture is all I can I can think,

563
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 4: And yeah, one.

564
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 3: Sort of glory run in it. So it's a clown

565
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 3: of it.

566
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: Yet it's like this quiet reredy nobody in mama's basement

567
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: who's anonymous in the real world. So they think they

568
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,959
Speaker 2: could lean in and be not anonymous at all and

569
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: be loved and be welcomed. But you know, their real

570
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 2: life becomes online. So yeah, lighting a match or running

571
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 2: over two girls, it's like a video game. Yeah, it's

572
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: like really like there's a there's like a disconnect somewhere,

573
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: and I do think we have to address it. I

574
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: don't have the answers by any means. You know, we're

575
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: down the rabbit hole on in cells on the podcast.

576
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: But if anybody knows, please share your insight because it's here. Yeah,

577
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 2: eighty eight three one crime, Now give us a call.

578
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: Now things are taking a turn for the weird. I'm

579
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 2: happy to announce. So okay, body, let's go because we're

580
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 2: shaking it up with a news story that is certainly

581
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: going to change the vibe.

582
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 5: Listen, this is just kind of a wacky, one of

583
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 5: those wacky stories. I saw this today on YouTube, and

584
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 5: this happened back, this happened last year. Okay, Daisy Link,

585
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 5: she was incarcerated in the Miami Dade Jail. She stayed

586
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 5: birth in June of this twenty twenty four, claiming she

587
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 5: became pregnant. Listen to this. Despite never physically meeting the father,

588
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 5: who was a fellow inmate, Joan Depase. Okay, so they

589
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 5: never met, but two say he smuggled Seamen to her

590
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 5: cell through air vents using makeshift lines that she and

591
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 5: she like self inseminated using a yeast application device that

592
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 5: you can get in jail.

593
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 3: What, yes, yes?

594
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 5: Is that a thing I didn't? Apparently apparently he made

595
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 5: like deposits into like a sandwich baggie of some kind

596
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 5: and then rigged some kind of you know, wound it

597
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 5: up and passed it through these air vents in the prison.

598
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 5: It's like a jail. And I didn't by the way.

599
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,719
Speaker 3: Yes, still this is not very sanitary.

600
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 5: No, it's not sanitary.

601
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 2: This could available for the for the for the baggy

602
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: to get through.

603
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 5: Yeah. So they communicate through these error conditioning events initially,

604
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 5: and they passed notes and photos while they were recording

605
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 5: one another. And then they devised a method to transfer

606
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 5: this you know, specimen from his cell into hers, and

607
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 5: he would wrap it in saran wrap kind of like

608
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 5: a cigarette, wound it right real tight. He did this

609
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 5: five times a day. I'm not going, my god, what

610
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 5: fertility like this is? I mean, ladies, listen up. I

611
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 5: mean this is.

612
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 2: They were dedicated and it would be sort of an

613
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: instant thing too, So.

614
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 5: I thought I had to stay in a certain temperature.

615
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 5: Yeah you would. I thought like if oxygen hit it,

616
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 5: it would not be you know, a little land rap.

617
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 4: I don't know because at my high school sex education,

618
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 4: I remember, I just thought you'd get pregnant if you know,

619
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 4: two days later you sat on a car seat where

620
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 4: semen was and that it can you know, where it

621
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 4: can semen can work its magic for I mean, I

622
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 4: know at least seventy two hours.

623
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 5: I didn't hear that really well, yeah I don't know that.

624
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 5: Yeah slightly, I don't know.

625
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: It's like this inception story should be so romantic, but

626
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: you find.

627
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 4: It too checking in Stephanie, you're wondering why you feel

628
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 4: queasy about this inmate masturbating five times a day into.

629
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 5: A baggie and that baggie.

630
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 4: Contents being inseminated to another prisoner with a yeast infection applicator.

631
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 2: Wow, I mean it's industrious. I got to give him that.

632
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: When there's a will, there's a way. And how did

633
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 2: the baby work out? The baby's good? Babies good?

634
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 5: So the baby was born, the baby was poorful. Now,

635
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 5: the Miami Dade Productions facility just released its findings in March,

636
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 5: because of course they had to do this investigation, like

637
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 5: what is going on here? You've been here for more

638
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 5: than that.

639
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been here for eleven months?

640
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 5: How do you have a baby? And they they did

641
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 5: release its findings. There was no staff misconduct.

642
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: I my brain went there, that's likely cover up for

643
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 2: a little misconduct with a security guard.

644
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 5: But they made some changes to prevent this you know,

645
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 5: happening in the future. You know, there's no there's no

646
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 5: more vent communications, you know, so that dating pool is

647
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 5: going to be sufficiently decreased. You're not going to be

648
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 5: able to pick up a woman or a man in

649
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 5: jail through the vents anymore. But yeah, they described in

650
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 5: jailhouse interviews how they built this line through the vents,

651
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 5: using betting and repeatingly, repeatingly attempting to transfer the scene.

652
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 5: And they were legitimately dedicated this.

653
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: Why imagine if all inmates were doing this like they

654
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 2: were having just I didn't.

655
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 5: That, You've never e I thought they were separated by gender.

656
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 5: I did too, male all, what is happening in this

657
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 5: Miami Dade jail, Florida.

658
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 4: Well, medical experts have been interviewed because you know, yeah,

659
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 4: story has been talked about, and they say, conception via

660
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 4: such this method is extremely unlikely. But they then they say,

661
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 4: you know, probably less than five percent.

662
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 5: That's a pretty high probability.

663
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 3: That's a very high probability.

664
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 2: I always wanted to do this show. My stepdad had

665
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 2: the idea. It's called inconceivable. Oh yeah, every episode is

666
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: another miracle of birth that you know happens in unusual ways,

667
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 2: you know, and nowadays with infertility and so much technology

668
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: bringing real miracles to people. Many of my friends have

669
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: experienced miracles, and this would be this would be quite

670
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: the miracle.

671
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 5: So for me, they're both in jail for well, they

672
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 5: were charged with murder, different different murderers. Okay, So they're

673
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 5: both being charged with separate murders. They didn't know each

674
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 5: other prior to going into jail. They fell in love

675
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 5: through these events, through these this courtship. Okay, So I

676
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 5: just want to give an update on what's happening now.

677
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 5: So he pled guilty to the murder and was sentenced

678
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 5: to twenty five years and she is still in the

679
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 5: jail because she's awaiting her own trial in her own case.

680
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 5: And their daughter lives with his mother.

681
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: You know what, wouldn't it be so interesting and beautiful

682
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 2: if the daughter goes on to be like an incredible attorney.

683
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 5: Who oh that would be He becomes like an.

684
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: Avocate you know, the sea and put away the bad

685
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 2: eyes and give relief and you know, aid to the

686
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 2: ones who have maybe made decisions.

687
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 3: That they regret.

688
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,479
Speaker 5: I'm really upset that you guys miss my pun Just now, wait,

689
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 5: I missed it. I missed it. You're planting the seed ye,

690
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 5: and I love it And that was a great fun.

691
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 4: So I'm stuck on the event, like the curiosity of

692
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,439
Speaker 4: how that relationship begins day one?

693
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 5: Hello.

694
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 4: But also is the concept of uh love is blind

695
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 4: based on I was gonna say, what do you mean

696
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 4: you don't.

697
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:21,439
Speaker 5: Get its special scial you see? Also blind in jail?

698
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 5: Was that another?

699
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 4: Is that another pund the juicy?

700
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 5: Oh? Okay, but that makes sense? Like that does make sense.

701
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: You have all the time you are lonely and you

702
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 2: want to talk and connect with somebody. You got nothing

703
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: to lose, You're in it for decades. Wow, that is

704
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 2: a story that I wasn't expecting. And a little pick

705
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: me up there we go makes you go on to

706
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 2: commit the most wonderful things in life.

707
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 5: Right. Yeah, I wish this baby well very well. Yeah,

708
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 5: he's with she is with grandma, so hopefully she has

709
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 5: a wonderful life. Wow. So yeah, I don't know. We're

710
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 5: gonna see. So I understand though that we can go

711
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 5: to a talk back.

712
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 7: Hey, nadies, Gigi, here, I'm going to weigh in on

713
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 7: the way to vest conversation. How you on every day

714
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 7: I have for the past two years when I'm walking

715
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 7: my neighborhood and listening to your amazing podcast. It has

716
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 7: made such a difference in my Ostio Parini numbers.

717
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 5: Uh, it's been. It's incredible. It has helped my.

718
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 7: Frozen shoulder, just all the things menopausal for that matter.

719
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,479
Speaker 7: And I'm so glad you guys are wearing them too.

720
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: I have to get on all Okay, listen True crime tonight. Community,

721
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: Let's get our vests on.

722
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 5: Let's get our strength. Let's get strength, Let's get strong.

723
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 3: Let's start.

724
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 5: You know we can. We can do this with our

725
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 5: little vests. I couldn't even open a pickle jar today.

726
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 5: Well that's why I need the vale. I know. I

727
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 5: feel like as I get your strength is like, yeah,

728
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 5: because you got going, we've got to be doing.

729
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: You gotta put the vest on I do. It's the

730
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 2: it's the it's the it's the secret. It's the secreted strength.

731
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 5: Observe it.

732
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, the hand strength that goes all the way up

733
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,760
Speaker 4: to like compressed neck. I would bet you one hundred

734
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,479
Speaker 4: dollars that your hand strength is because you look down

735
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 4: like every one of us, all us look down at

736
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 4: your phone. Your neck gets out of whack that that

737
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 4: decreases the strength all the way down.

738
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, great, and there are exercises for that, but you know,

739
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 8: the neck isn't getting helped either by us all looking down.

740
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 8: I wonder where ever, catch yourself in the mirror and

741
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 8: you don't expect to see.

742
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 5: The donchin I turn on. Oh my god, I turn

743
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 5: my camera my phone and front facing. I almost I

744
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 5: almost have a heart attack, saying it's like Joba the

745
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 5: Hut staring back. It's in my phone.

746
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 2: So listen, get the vest. I think it's all all

747
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 2: the things that would be the best merch. We should

748
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 2: get vests.

749
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 5: Stop. Maybe they have a little glow and boy each other.

750
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 5: It will all be a little to apocalypse together, like

751
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 5: the glow stripes, like the reflective light.

752
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 2: You know, yes, and everybody's a good morning angel on

753
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 2: the podcast, Like I listen, I think we're onto something.

754
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 5: Listen.

755
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 2: I'm just started a couple of weeks ago. You guys

756
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 2: have witnessed it live. But you know it's hard to

757
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 2: get stuff in. It's hard to get those steps in.

758
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 5: Tell me about it.

759
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 2: That was very motivating. Thank you for the talkback. You know,

760
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 2: the morning walk is the best thing.

761
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 4: And Gigi talk back or call us again, and anyone

762
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 4: else should as well. True crime tonight, we're at itIt

763
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 4: eate through one crime. We'd love to hear from you

764
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,479
Speaker 4: any time of day. Uh well, I guess our show

765
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 4: hours are best to call, but talkbacks are anytime. Well,

766
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 4: if they call while we're not on, they can leave

767
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 4: a voicemail.

768
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 5: That's true. There's really no excuse to let us not

769
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 5: hear your voice.

770
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,240
Speaker 2: I guess it's like a downright, outright cry for it.

771
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 5: It's so satisfying.

772
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 2: And also, Gigi, by the way, if you have any

773
00:40:57,960 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: suggestions on those vests, because we are going to win

774
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,479
Speaker 2: in it, So if you have some insider scoop as

775
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 2: the veteran of the West seems like the vest wearing,

776
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 2: we want to have the same success as you, So

777
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 2: shoot us a DM or something with a pick.

778
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 5: E s what other talkbacks will wait? Are you becoming

779
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 5: exercise experts?

780
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 2: Oh god, no, it's a turn that the show we

781
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 2: didn't expect.

782
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 4: I mean, I didn't expect the prison sperm so expected.

783
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 2: Wednesday, we're gonna get Jack Luaine, like we should bring

784
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: back aerobics.

785
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 3: Courtney loves aerobics.

786
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 5: I love a zoomba like a zoomba. Yeah, which is

787
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 5: kind of aerobics, right, exercise. Let's go to a talk back. Hi,

788
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 5: Hannah from Australia.

789
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,280
Speaker 9: You're talking about the drug smuggling of the Budi board.

790
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 5: That was Chappelle Corby.

791
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 9: She spent nine years in prison in Bali for that.

792
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,479
Speaker 9: But interestingly, they have this group called the Bali Nine

793
00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 9: where they tried to smuggle drugs from Bali to Australia,

794
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 9: I believe, and two of them actually got sentenced to

795
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,399
Speaker 9: death and were executed. That's an interesting story too.

796
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 5: Oh my god. Okay, So I was talking about this

797
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 5: this documentary I saw gosh I want to say, maybe

798
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 5: fifteen years ago. It was a really long time ago.

799
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 5: And then her name was Chappelle, that's right. I couldn't

800
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 5: remember her name at the time because it you know,

801
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 5: off the cuff was talking about it, and she was

802
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 5: going to Bali. You know, I spent some time in

803
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 5: Malaysia and there are a lot of Australians on vacation

804
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 5: in that area of the world. Okay, so she was

805
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,720
Speaker 5: going to Bali because you know it's rep by Australia.

806
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 5: That's ready. They go and she is at the airport

807
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 5: and she has a boogey board okay, and the boogie

808
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 5: board's and like a boogiey board bag. Well they're open.

809
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 5: They open it up and it's full of marijuana, like

810
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 5: full of marijuana, and she's like, that is not mine, Like,

811
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 5: well I would never like that is the dumbest thing. Well,

812
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 5: this is Bali. This is like straight to prison. Do

813
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 5: not pass go? Do you not collect two hundred dollars?

814
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 5: Straight to prison? She spent nine years in prison in

815
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 5: Bali because of this. It was possible she didn't do it.

816
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 5: Was it maybe a mistake. Well that's what she was,

817
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 5: you know, saying in this documentary, And you know, I left,

818
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 5: you know, watching the documentary going well, I don't know.

819
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 5: I mean, she's saying she didn't, but they maybe it

820
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 5: got planted on maybe well a lot of people are

821
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 5: saying that, like sometimes like baggage handlers or whatnot. You know,

822
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 5: in one airport you'll be working with one in another airport,

823
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 5: and they had this system going on. But if that

824
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 5: were the case, wouldn't they have taken the weed out

825
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 5: of the bag.

826
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 2: You know, they were waiting for her to kind of

827
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 2: like maybe backguard her luggage because she might not even

828
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 2: known it was in there, so then she has to

829
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 2: go somewhere and then they take the bag without her

830
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 2: realizing it. Oh my goodness. Ye, you have to wrap

831
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 2: your luggage. In some of these locations and airports, they

832
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 2: have that saran wrap that you put around your bags

833
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:54,720
Speaker 2: so that nobody just shove.

834
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 5: I recommend that. I absolutely recommend that to Yeah. But anyway,

835
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 5: they thank you for the talkback is a great one.

836
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 5: I had completely forgotten about that until we were talking

837
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 5: about this baggage handler situation.

838
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 3: To that other story too.

839
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 2: Ta by the way, to how we didn't get to

840
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 2: say it, I should have said this we had the show.

841
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:14,399
Speaker 5: I'm glad you're feeling better.

842
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, So he has to not speak right now because

843
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 2: he's prepping to get our guest Michael Bryant the Great

844
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 2: on the show because he's going to be breaking down

845
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: all things Massachusetts and Karen Reid. So it's okay, but

846
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 2: we're just glad you're backtop and he's well and just

847
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 2: his bright, shiny self yet again.

848
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 5: So yeah.

849
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,919
Speaker 3: The other case though, for life and execution for this.

850
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 5: Dress us, they don't listen over there. They do not

851
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 5: mess around like it is scary, like when we were

852
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 5: preparing to go to Malaysia. It was like, do not

853
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 5: bring zummies because you know I take ummies. Do not

854
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:55,439
Speaker 5: bring anything because it's literally straight to prison here. You're

855
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 5: not gonna be you know, you're not gonna survive. Oh yeah,

856
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 5: Like they do not mess around. They take it very

857
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 5: very seriously. Drugs in their country. They do not mess

858
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 5: around with it. Like it's not like, oh okay, it's

859
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 5: a misdemeanor of straight through right.

860
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 2: Hey, death sentence a very special place too. I guess

861
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,399
Speaker 2: I had from there. I guess that's that's why. That's

862
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 2: how you clean it up.

863
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 5: Oh, I mean maybe I don't know, but so I

864
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 5: never did. Obviously I was over there for two months

865
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 5: and I didn't even drink. I was like, oh, I'm

866
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 5: too scared of anything.

867
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, straighten the don't believe, Well, well listen, Happily she is.

868
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 4: She has been home, she served her time and is

869
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 4: now avoiding interviews. She's focusing on her mental health and

870
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 4: we wish you well after that experience.

871
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, coming up, Emmy Award Winner, Emmy winner Michael

872
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 5: Bryant unpacks Turtle Boy, Karen Read and more courtroom drama

873
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 5: and don't forget to call in eighty eight thirty one

874
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 5: Crime to share your thoughts with us any of Tonight's stories.

875
00:45:54,680 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: Keep it right here True Frime Tonight. Welcome back to

876
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all

877
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 2: the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head u KT

878
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 2: Studios where I get to make true crime podcasts and

879
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 2: documentaries and I get to do that with Courtney Armstrong

880
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 2: and Body Move In. We get to be here every night,

881
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 2: and we want you guys to join the convo eight

882
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 2: eight eight three one crime or give us a talkback,

883
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 2: or you can hit us up on our socials.

884
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 3: Listen if you've missed the show.

885
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: Also, as always, you can always catch the full show

886
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 2: as a podcast after. And it's been kind of a

887
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: whirlwind of a night so far, and it's about to

888
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 2: really heat up because we have you know, Michael Bryant

889
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 2: is here. You guys will remember him because he's been

890
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 2: on before. He was covering a lot of the Karen

891
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 2: Reid when that was happening in real time. We all

892
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 2: remember Karen Reid. She ultimately won her case. We also

893
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: remember that, but suddenly it's back. Lots of civil lawsuits

894
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 2: are happening, and you guys remember drama, lots of drama

895
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 2: behind the scenes, so we're very excited to be joined,

896
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 2: of course by longtime trial attorney, journalist and by the way,

897
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 2: Emmy Award winning host of of course the show Justice

898
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: served TV Network, where he has been providing incredible coverage

899
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,240
Speaker 2: on all of these major cases. So Massachusetts has become

900
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 2: kind of his home away from home. And you'll remember

901
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 2: also his beloved wife Lisa Bryant.

902
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 3: Did the Epstein doc.

903
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 5: Remember she was on telling us all about her She

904
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 5: was on the boat with the there.

905
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this dynamic duo, that's the real show power.

906
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 3: So here we go, the show within the show.

907
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 5: So Michael, welcome. Can you hear us?

908
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 10: Hey, I can hear you? How are you? How is

909
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 10: everybody good?

910
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 5: Good?

911
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 6: Oh?

912
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 10: Glad to be back. Good to be with you guys,

913
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 10: about you know, as the world turns Massachusetts sedition.

914
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeh, dirts, Oh my gosh, we have so many

915
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 4: things to ask you about and hopefully you're okay.

916
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 5: Starting with Turtle Boy.

917
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 4: So just to catch everyone up, reminder, since it's been

918
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 4: out of the news, Aiden Kierny is a guy named Hurtleboy.

919
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 4: He was supporter extraordinaire of Karen Reid. He's actually credited

920
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 4: with bringing her case to national attention. Well, turtle Boy,

921
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 4: he's facing multiple charges and this stems from alleged witness

922
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 4: intimidation events that happened during the Karen retrial. So in June,

923
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 4: as Stephanie mentioned, Karen Reid of course was acquitted of

924
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 4: second degree murder and she was convicted of operating under

925
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 4: the influence. But again, a lot of this stuff that

926
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 4: was so big in her support was Turtle Boy. What

927
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 4: is going on now? It seems like the tides have changed, Michael.

928
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 10: You know, it's almost like the prosecution there in the

929
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 10: Commonwealth took their sits off Karen Reid because they lost famously,

930
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 10: and you know, have now focused on Aidan Karney. Turtle Boy.

931
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 10: I've never called him man never.

932
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 11: I don't know.

933
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 10: It just seems like a weird name. I know, the

934
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 10: history of doctor turtle Boy. He appreciates I call him Aiden.

935
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 10: So he was in court, yeah, I know, I think

936
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 10: he appreciates the the the the turtle Boy monitor just

937
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 10: feels weird to me. So he was in court again

938
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 10: today by zoom, but he was back today because the

939
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 10: Karen Reid case came back from the you would think dead.

940
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 10: They had a hearing. This is just so weird. They

941
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 10: have this hearing brought by a special prosecutor Cosgrove. He

942
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:50,320
Speaker 10: wanted Karen Reid's passwords to get into the two phones

943
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 10: they took from her almost two years ago. And they

944
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 10: still have the phones. They've not given them back when

945
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 10: she asked to get give them back. And the and

946
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 10: the car. Of course everybody knows about car that didn't

947
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 10: hit John O'Keefe. She got the car back and it

948
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 10: was smelled like p and it was trashed and they

949
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 10: had fixeduff P.

950
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, oh yeah, because.

951
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 2: They're probably like defaming it behind closed doors because again

952
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 2: it was here against the police department.

953
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 10: It could have been people, could have been cats, could

954
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 10: have been rats, I don't know, but it was clearly

955
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 10: a yeurine smell. So she gets the car back, that

956
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 10: they keep the phones, and Cosgrove, the special prosecutor. I

957
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 10: don't know if it's special as in special education. I

958
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 10: don't know what that means. But they bring him in

959
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 10: and he says that wait a minute, before we give

960
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 10: these phones back, we want to get into them and

961
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 10: look for evidence of a conspiracy between Aid and Carney

962
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 10: True Boy and Karen Reid to intimidate witnesses. So that

963
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 10: just came to them after they had the phones a

964
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 10: year and a half.

965
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 11: That just came to them.

966
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 2: Wow, look into it.

967
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 10: They're both iPhones and if you have an iPhone, you

968
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 10: know that they're pretty tough to crack with some of

969
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 10: the normal processes that law enforcement use. And so they've

970
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 10: got these, you know, paper weights that they can't get

971
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 10: into and they want the court to endorse their opening

972
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 10: them up. And that was the hearing today. Just a

973
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 10: bizarre hearing because you're thinking, well, why is Carrie even

974
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 10: on the table here? She was acquitted and other than

975
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 10: the dui Ks, it's just because the Commonwealth they're not

976
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 10: good losers. So they think that there's another way to

977
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 10: get at her and use the connection with Aiden Carney

978
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,879
Speaker 10: because of the intimidation of witnesses charges against him. They

979
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 10: want to find a conspiracy that she was involved in that.

980
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 5: Theory encouraging it or asking.

981
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 10: Or working in concert with him to set up the

982
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 10: people that he's accused of intimidating. The McCabe, the Alberts, etc.

983
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 10: All these names that people remember from the trial. I'm

984
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 10: sure if not trial number two. Certainly Trial number one

985
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 10: because they didn't testify other than Jen McCabe, most of

986
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 10: the others did not testify, and trial number two. So

987
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 10: it's a way for them to keep her, you know,

988
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 10: dancing on a string, hoping, you know, that they find

989
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 10: something on her. And technically they could have independent charges

990
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 10: for witness intimidation regardless of the acquittals. In the more

991
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 10: important case, it's possible theoretically, do they have the goods?

992
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 10: Highly unlikely. They've had Aiden's phones for a couple of years. Well,

993
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 10: if I'm in a conspiracy with you guys, right and

994
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 10: you have my phone, everything in my phone would link

995
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 10: me to you if in fact there is a conspiracy.

996
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 10: So they've had Aiden's phones all this time, so at

997
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:31,959
Speaker 10: the very least they should be having to tell the court, look,

998
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 10: we found in his phones, X, Y, and Z. That

999
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 10: gives us the right to get into her phones for

1000
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 10: confirmation or whatever other information we can find. They don't

1001
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,720
Speaker 10: have that argument. They don't make that argument. And Aiden

1002
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 10: has said to me many times there's nothing in there.

1003
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 10: There's nothing there, so I can.

1004
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,399
Speaker 2: At that point, because the Karen read of it all,

1005
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 2: it kind of gets me fired up. When I think

1006
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 2: it does your woman, I'm like, I don't know Karen

1007
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 2: read And by the way, I love Boston, So shout

1008
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 2: out to Boston. What are the greatest cities in all

1009
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 2: the world? In law enforced been putting their lives on

1010
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: the line. That is not up for convo, But in

1011
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,839
Speaker 2: this particular case, it does appear that there was some

1012
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 2: shenanigans happening with a cross little grouping of allegedly allegedly

1013
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 2: allegedly people in this Canton police department that maybe had

1014
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,280
Speaker 2: it out for Karen Reid, and you know, her life

1015
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 2: was tossed out the window. Imagine going through two trials

1016
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:29,839
Speaker 2: and then finding out in your heart that you were

1017
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 2: actually set up by the guys that were with you

1018
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 2: that night. And that's been an ongoing thing now. Of

1019
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 2: course John O'Keefe's mom, Peggy O'Keeffe, and his family, our

1020
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 2: hearts go out to them, so you know, they want

1021
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 2: justice and they want this to be put to bed.

1022
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 2: But if this is sort of like a petty betty,

1023
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 2: let's get one back at Karen because she came against us,

1024
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 2: and it's just like this pylon that's a waste of resources. Also,

1025
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 2: and a waste of energy, and everybody just needs to

1026
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 2: get on with their lives, you know, and focus on

1027
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 2: John o'keef if the victim. This was an extraordinary man

1028
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 2: who was taking care of his deceee sister's kids. Remember

1029
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 2: you remember, Michael, This must have been so heart wrenching

1030
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 2: for them all the time.

1031
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, everything you hear about him, he's just you know,

1032
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 10: he's just an all around great guy doing more than

1033
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,240
Speaker 10: he needed to do. And in that, in that regard

1034
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,919
Speaker 10: Karen Reid as well, she's the girlfriend of the guy

1035
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 10: doing this, so a lot of the you know, fill

1036
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 10: in mom duties kind of fall on her. So, yeah,

1037
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 10: she didn't deserve this. He s certainly didn't deserve this,

1038
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 10: and he sort of gets lost in the shuffle sometimes

1039
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 10: as this case continues to roll forward. Obviously the civil case,

1040
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 10: he is front and center because it's his folks who

1041
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:41,359
Speaker 10: are suing for wrongful death.

1042
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 2: So his folks, by the way, if you're just joining us,

1043
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 2: we're here with Michael Bryant, obviously the Emmy Award winning journalist,

1044
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 2: and he's joining us to talk about all things Massachusetts.

1045
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 2: Karen Reid, so join us eight at eight three. One

1046
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 2: crime to that end. And one last thing on the

1047
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 2: Karen Reid thing. When I find a little bit interesting

1048
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 2: about her specific is, first of all, she's a really attractive,

1049
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 2: you know, accomplished woman. You know, she had a job

1050
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 2: and she has a very loving family. But she has

1051
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 2: sort of a tough exterior, right, She's not she's not

1052
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 2: given warm and fuzzy. And that's like a little bit

1053
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 2: of a thing, right, that's a presence. It's a very

1054
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: familiar one. I don't get put off.

1055
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 5: By it at all.

1056
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 2: But I hear so much chatter about how unlikable she

1057
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 2: appears and how she just doesn't seem she doesn't seem nice,

1058
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 2: and therefore she must be guilty. And I find that

1059
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 2: also just so unique to this case. Like if she

1060
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 2: was like sobbing and maybe was a bit more performative

1061
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 2: and not such a hard ass, frankly, because that's what

1062
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 2: she kind of seems like, I wonder if the tides

1063
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 2: would be different toward her. And yet you find out

1064
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 2: these guys potentially were setting her up. And yeah, if

1065
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 2: you're in her seat, her life is on the line.

1066
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 2: Remember she was looking at life life, right, It wasn't like,

1067
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 2: you know, a misdemeanor of something. It was life and

1068
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 2: now is nothing based on the evidence that's coming forward,

1069
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 2: and she's about to try to put a lawsuit on

1070
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 2: all of the above, that little that little group, right,

1071
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 2: Am I correct about this?

1072
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 5: Michael's right?

1073
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 10: But yeah, everybody saw in the first trial. You know

1074
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 10: Jen McCabe, she appeared in both trials. Matthew McCabe, her husband,

1075
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:22,399
Speaker 10: Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, Nicole Albert. They were the ones

1076
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 10: who owned the home where Johnald Quugh's body was gone.

1077
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:30,839
Speaker 10: All of these players, and remember Brian Albert was a cop, right,

1078
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 10: So there's this whole blue wall kind of thing going

1079
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 10: on and all of the issues about did they predetermine

1080
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 10: what they wanted to do. Nobody knows for sure what

1081
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 10: the hell happened in that house on that January night

1082
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 10: in twenty twenty two, but everybody speculating some of the

1083
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 10: evidence wasn't allowed in a trial about what happened in

1084
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:51,280
Speaker 10: the garage, whether there was evidence of a fight, a fall,

1085
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 10: hits you know, Keith hits the back of his head

1086
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 10: on maybe a concrete step or something, accounting for the

1087
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 10: gash on his head. All of those things are just

1088
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:02,919
Speaker 10: But when we go to the civil trial. Here's what's

1089
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,919
Speaker 10: going on there because it's it's first of all, I say,

1090
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,799
Speaker 10: as we sit here, I hope I'm alive if it

1091
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 10: goes to trial, because these things drag on forever into

1092
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:15,879
Speaker 10: civil MATECT. It's not a criminal trial, so it will

1093
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 10: take I mean, we're talking right now as it stands

1094
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 10: with just the defendants. Now are Karen Reid and the

1095
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 10: two bars shoes at that night right right? That's it.

1096
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 10: But the defendants are trying to bring in ten other

1097
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 10: parties and those are the ones you just talked about.

1098
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 10: They want to bring ten. Now can you imagine what

1099
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 10: a nightmare that is in terms of discovery, In terms

1100
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 10: of the parties involved. They've all got to then law

1101
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 10: your up, so the discovery would be a nightmare. But

1102
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 10: as it stands right now, before those ten are involved,

1103
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 10: we're looking at the end of twenty seven for a

1104
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 10: trial date.

1105
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, I just imagine that's all the time

1106
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 5: and the money that you have to spend.

1107
00:57:56,920 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 6: Like they don't have jobs. Oh yeah, you.

1108
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 5: Know, Karen have a job.

1109
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 2: She hasn't been able to work for years because she

1110
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 2: got ripped away from her job as she prepared to

1111
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 2: go to prison for life for crime she now we know,

1112
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 2: did not commit according to the verdict.

1113
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 5: Let me just lay the land out here. Turtle Boy

1114
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 5: is under investigation for witness intimidation and facing trial right now.

1115
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 10: He's been charged.

1116
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 5: He's been charged, right and he's facing trial right now.

1117
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 5: And then John o'keith's family is suing Karen Reid in

1118
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 5: a couple of bars for wrongful death. And then Karen

1119
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 5: Reid is suing the city of Canton and the police department.

1120
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 5: So there's three things happening, right.

1121
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 2: And I think individually, she's also suing the Alberts and

1122
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 2: those that were okay, evolved.

1123
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 5: I think this is accurate, right, Michael.

1124
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 2: I think she's bringing all the gang that was there

1125
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:51,959
Speaker 2: that night back together one last place.

1126
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 11: That's the plan, Okay, they would bring in Canton for

1127
00:58:56,120 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 11: the silent supervised the investigators because you know, once they

1128
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 11: got out to the Lea Lower and the solo cups,

1129
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 11: they probably weren't trained very well.

1130
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, they had the investigation Canton.

1131
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 10: Yeah, you know who doesn't. I mean that was one

1132
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 10: of the first things we heard about it when I

1133
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 10: was hosting on Law and Crime and were like, what wait,

1134
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 10: what wait?

1135
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 2: Is dead your buddy is dead at the bottom of

1136
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 2: the street. And you guys have been boozing together all night, right,

1137
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 2: so your body your best friend, like this is their

1138
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,439
Speaker 2: guy and they also serve together. He turns up dead.

1139
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 2: You think you're going to do the crime scene investigation

1140
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 2: in solo cups. You're not going to close it off

1141
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 2: if you think someone's to blame for your best buddy

1142
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 2: and allies death.

1143
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 3: They took the vehicle.

1144
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 5: Remember there were so many there were.

1145
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 3: The list is egregious. It's really egregious.

1146
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 2: I almost don't want to repeat it because it makes

1147
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 2: it makes it look bad for law enforcement, and we

1148
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 2: know that's not the case.

1149
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 5: That's what well in this instance.

1150
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:56,440
Speaker 6: That's another.

1151
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 10: That's another action they took against Canton was not protecting

1152
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 10: the sally ports. You know, everybody now knows what a

1153
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 10: sally port is. That's where they had the SUV and

1154
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 10: they didn't properly protect it from who knows what kind

1155
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 10: of contamination or what is believing they're having your man

1156
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 10: handling the taillight, yep, you know. So that that was

1157
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 10: a Canton responsibility. So there's lots of ctential liability for Canton,

1158
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 10: let alone all these different individuals that we've talked about,

1159
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 10: and that's just going to make this thing play out forever.

1160
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, I can't believe we're going to be

1161
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 5: here till twenty twenty nine talking about that.

1162
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 2: For Boston, Michael, is the greatest city of all time.

1163
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 2: And by the way, like shout out to Boston. But

1164
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 2: you have to be drug through this forever.

1165
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 5: Court.

1166
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 4: You were going to say something, Yeah, I just had

1167
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 4: a question about why John O'Keefe's family is suing the

1168
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 4: Two Bars.

1169
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 6: Oh, that's a good question. Yeah.

1170
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 10: They have a lot of states have what's called the

1171
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 10: dram shop laws, and what it means is that our

1172
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 10: owners and those who serve a liquor can be responsible

1173
01:00:57,040 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 10: for overserving the patrons if that ultimately leads to or

1174
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 10: is somehow connected to a criminal act on civil responsibility.

1175
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 10: So they're basically saying she was drunk, that drunk driver

1176
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 10: then killed John O'Keefe, therefore they have some responsibility.

1177
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 2: Wow, we're pretty boozy. Remember it was a blizzard. They're

1178
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 2: all behind the wheel driving everywhere. Yeah, that is the scoop. Well,

1179
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 2: stay with us. We're going to be back with Emmy

1180
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 2: Award winning journalists. Michael Bryant and get this, you guys,

1181
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 2: a shocking new case involving Massachusetts police officer.

1182
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:35,600
Speaker 5: Please, oh my gosh, keep it right here at your

1183
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 5: Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all the.

1184
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 2: Time, and we have Michael Bryant in the hot seat

1185
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 2: with us right now. He is back Emmy Award winning

1186
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 2: journalist and also the host of you know what, just

1187
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 2: as Serve TV network. So make sure we're getting all

1188
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 2: the scoop on Massachusetts and all things Karen Reid.

1189
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 3: Is that accurate?

1190
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 2: So, Michael, we were talking a bit about Turtle Boy

1191
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 2: and his relationship with you know, Karen Reid seems to

1192
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 2: have kind of split apart a little bit allegedly.

1193
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 5: Have you heard any rumblings of this?

1194
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 10: You know, one of the things we do it justice

1195
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 10: or of TV is no drama rama. There is such

1196
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 10: a weird undercurrent of folks who are either pro free

1197
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,920
Speaker 10: Karen Reid or anti Karan Reid. Nobody seems to be

1198
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 10: on the bubble, and so all of these folks have now,

1199
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 10: you know, taken aim at Aiden saying, hey, after she

1200
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 10: got acquitted, she just you know, you know, peeled him

1201
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 10: off of her shoe and moved on, you know, everything

1202
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,600
Speaker 10: we've heard could be nothing, nothing further from the truth.

1203
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 10: We've talked to her attorneys, we've talked to Aiden. We've

1204
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:52,080
Speaker 10: seen nothing to suggest that that's really the case. But

1205
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 10: people are going to believe what they want to believe.

1206
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 10: Sometimes for those who you know, got pounded in court

1207
01:02:57,240 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 10: and didn't get the result they wanted or looking for

1208
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 10: any sort oftory, and it fits to try to drive

1209
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 10: a wedge between them, you know, sad, but maybe that's

1210
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 10: their victory.

1211
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:10,440
Speaker 4: Is this feeling like a vendetta of the Commonwealth of

1212
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 4: Massachusetts against Karen Reid since they lost place, This seems

1213
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1214
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 10: I don't know if it's a vendetta or if it's

1215
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 10: just stupidity, you know, not knowing when to give it

1216
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 10: up and let go. And it all comes from the top.

1217
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 10: Michael Morrissey is the DA for the moment. He's for reelection,

1218
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:32,920
Speaker 10: and most people believe he's the guy pulling the strings,

1219
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 10: whether directly or indirectly, whether it's just by you know,

1220
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 10: the influence he might have, or whether it's by direct order.

1221
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 10: We know he's been involved in conversations with some of

1222
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 10: the folks in the underlying Aidan Carney intimidation case. I mean,

1223
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 10: this woman. You're gonna learn more about her if you

1224
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 10: haven't already. Kate Peter singular Peter one Peter. So she's

1225
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 10: this woman orchestrated all of the evidence that was given

1226
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 10: to the pro secution, the communications between them, it's unbelievable

1227
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 10: and it's part of a massive motion to dismiss that

1228
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 10: Aiden Karney is bringing. On December fifth, they'll get rid

1229
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 10: of their three different cases and they're gonna all they're

1230
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 10: all kind of rolled into one in terms of the prosecution.

1231
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 10: Just let me give you one example of what happened

1232
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 10: under this Kate Peter's assistance and.

1233
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 6: A person well, I don't know if he's normal or not.

1234
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 10: She's not an authority, may be an agent of the prosecution. Unofficially,

1235
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 10: you can kind of see what she's done. It looks

1236
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 10: like they're deferring to her. They're taking the evidence she

1237
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 10: presented to them against Aiden Carney. Here's just one example.

1238
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 10: They go to the grand jury. They use the grand

1239
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 10: jury in Massachusetts. I think it's an antiquated system that sucks,

1240
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 10: but they still use it there in a lot of

1241
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 10: states do, especially Commonwealth. So they have a grand jury

1242
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 10: and as everybody knows the old cliche you can indict

1243
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 10: a ham sandwich, which means the threshold is very low. Okay,

1244
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 10: they take they, meaning the prosecution take to the grand jury.

1245
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 10: Samples of some of Aiden Carney's shows. Turtle Boy does

1246
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 10: the show. At the time, it was twice a week.

1247
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 10: Sometimes it's more now. And they took the clips, okay,

1248
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 10: and they changed the titles. The title might have been

1249
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:19,160
Speaker 10: something more innocuous than Colin Albert one of the kids.

1250
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 10: He's the guy that used to get in fist fights

1251
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 10: and stuff, and it was going, yeah, he's looked at

1252
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 10: as maybe the instigator of any brawl that took place

1253
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,720
Speaker 10: in the garage that night, and it might say something like,

1254
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 10: you know, Colin Albert is not a friend of Karen Reied.

1255
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:36,200
Speaker 10: Something simple like that, right, and they would change that

1256
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 10: to Aiden Carney goes after Colin Albert. I mean something

1257
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 10: that showed intent, because when they take it to the

1258
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 10: grand jury and they're talking about witness intimidation, what do

1259
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 10: you need to show needed? So somebody intended to intimidate

1260
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 10: a witness. So they took these clips of his show,

1261
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 10: changed the titles to make it look like they were

1262
01:05:55,720 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 10: intentional intimidation type tactics. I mean, how do you do that?

1263
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:03,920
Speaker 10: Not only does she do it, but then it's acknowledged

1264
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 10: and furthered by the prosecution. Everybody's dirty, So oh.

1265
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, possible to imagine, like, how do you possibly get

1266
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:14,000
Speaker 2: a fair trial if everybody is.

1267
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 3: In on it? And again that's really rare.

1268
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 2: I mean, of course there's a bad egg in every

1269
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:21,440
Speaker 2: business or you know there's that is. No one's going

1270
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:25,120
Speaker 2: to be immune to that, and certainly that happens, but

1271
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,600
Speaker 2: this is so many that are involved.

1272
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 3: I think that's like unique to this past.

1273
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 10: And a lot of folks would say when the first

1274
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 10: trial especially took place, that they thought that the defense

1275
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 10: had to prove a conspiracy. You know, they were putting

1276
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 10: all those slitnesses on and that's really what kind of

1277
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 10: bogged the jury down and why they were hung the

1278
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 10: first time, because they were shifting the burden. Burden is

1279
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:47,320
Speaker 10: not on the defense. They can sit there with their

1280
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:49,560
Speaker 10: hands in their pockets, it won't do anything, right. But

1281
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 10: they had such a strong defense and they were presenting

1282
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 10: all of these people and try to tell the story

1283
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 10: that it was them. People were either not believing it

1284
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 10: because how do you get that many people to you know,

1285
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:02,320
Speaker 10: tell the same story, but that really weren't that many

1286
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 10: details to tell. And these are folks that have grown

1287
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 10: up together. It's a very incestuous little town. King I

1288
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 10: call it the Triangle of Terror, Dedham, Stoton, Canton. That's

1289
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 10: where all of these things are taking place, the courts

1290
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 10: in Debtham. The death was in Canton, and there are

1291
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 10: other deaths going on in Stoughton just nearby. That's for

1292
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:24,360
Speaker 10: another show. But there's a very tight group and so

1293
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 10: to me not impossible to believe that they're all in

1294
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:29,920
Speaker 10: lockstep on telling the story. But the problem was in

1295
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 10: the first trial, the jury made the defense put on

1296
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:35,520
Speaker 10: a case they didn't have to put on. So you'll

1297
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:37,919
Speaker 10: notice a huge difference in the second trial. They didn't

1298
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:40,280
Speaker 10: go that route. They didn't put on all of those players.

1299
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 10: They kept it very straight and made the prosecution prove

1300
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 10: their case, which of course they filled that miserably, which

1301
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 10: was the one.

1302
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:49,520
Speaker 2: Of the most wild trials we've all witnessed. I mean

1303
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 2: that trial, one after the other, witness after witness. You know,

1304
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 2: there's such characters too, but also the fact that they

1305
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:59,919
Speaker 2: were so connected. Talk about recusing yourself. Imagine the leading

1306
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 2: investigator on the case is also the person who was

1307
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 2: at the crime scene, who's also the person that was

1308
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 2: also in the house in one of the potentially accused

1309
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 2: now and also all the boys that are like signing

1310
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:15,800
Speaker 2: the documents of evidence, we're also in this.

1311
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 5: It just seems like.

1312
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 10: The lead prosecutor, Proctor, who we know best because of

1313
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:25,760
Speaker 10: his you know, horrible texts, he didn't testify in the

1314
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:27,560
Speaker 10: second trial. How does the lead of escuar not in

1315
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:30,960
Speaker 10: testify in a trial. How does the prosecution prove his

1316
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:33,679
Speaker 10: case without doing that? They tried, they worked around him,

1317
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:36,840
Speaker 10: you know, they had Meuchanic, they had a couple other

1318
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:39,280
Speaker 10: guys that were in the mix, Tully, but.

1319
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:41,840
Speaker 6: No lead investigator.

1320
01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:44,479
Speaker 5: What a mess? What a mess?

1321
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 4: Well, listen, we are cleaning things up here. This is

1322
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 4: true crime tonight. We are talking true crime all the time.

1323
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 4: And I'm Courtney. I'm here with Stephanie and Body always

1324
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:57,800
Speaker 4: and tonight we're joined by a journalist and host of

1325
01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:01,920
Speaker 4: Justice Serve TV Network, mister Michael Bryant. We are talking

1326
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 4: all things Karen Reid and all of the tentacles that

1327
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 4: come off of her, and I would love to talk

1328
01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:12,639
Speaker 4: to you about Kelsey Fitzsimmons and body, would you mind

1329
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 4: just catching everyone up to speed because I'm having a

1330
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:16,639
Speaker 4: hard time remembering her.

1331
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure. So she is a police officer in

1332
01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 5: North Andover, which is also in Massachusetts. Her name is Kelly,

1333
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, Kelsey Fitzsimmons, and she was shot in her

1334
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 5: home by another officer on June thirtieth of this year.

1335
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 5: So this was during an arm confrontation where she was

1336
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:37,680
Speaker 5: being served with the restraining order by her filed by

1337
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 5: her fiance. Prosecutors alleged that she pointed her service weapon

1338
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 5: at the officer that was trying to serve her, and

1339
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 5: that prompted him to shoot. She maintains that she was

1340
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 5: feeling suicidal and then she only pointed the gun at herself.

1341
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:57,839
Speaker 5: She now faces felony assault charges and remains in custody

1342
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 5: as her legal team challenges the court's handling of her

1343
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:05,639
Speaker 5: pretrialed attention. This all happened on June thirtieth. Now, prior

1344
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,559
Speaker 5: to June thirtieth, she and her fiance, his name is

1345
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 5: Justin Alian. He's a firefighter, by the way, So this

1346
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:17,000
Speaker 5: is like a blue blood kind of family, right. Well,

1347
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:19,920
Speaker 5: they reportedly had like a really you know, horrific and

1348
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:26,480
Speaker 5: toxic history of conflict, including alleged past assaults and concerns

1349
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 5: about her behavior, mental health, and alcohol abuse. So on

1350
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:35,639
Speaker 5: the weekend of June thirtieth, he alleges that Kelsey justin

1351
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:39,559
Speaker 5: by the way. The fiance alleges that Kelsey assaulted him again,

1352
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:43,439
Speaker 5: prompting here to prompting him to fear for his safety

1353
01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:45,680
Speaker 5: and the safety of their little four month old that

1354
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:49,240
Speaker 5: she had just had. So the morning of June thirtieth,

1355
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:53,920
Speaker 5: he files for an abusive protect prevention order and seeks

1356
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:58,640
Speaker 5: custody of their child, citing concerns about you know, her behavior,

1357
01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:02,200
Speaker 5: And later that day, according to the defense, he asked

1358
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:05,720
Speaker 5: her to meet at a park to reconcile, but he

1359
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 5: didn't show up and instead moved forward with the restraining order.

1360
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:12,040
Speaker 5: It got served. You know, the police knock on the door,

1361
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:14,520
Speaker 5: but no, no, she answers, do you have any weapons?

1362
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:18,599
Speaker 5: They're all locked away, she says, Well, while she's upstairs

1363
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 5: with another officer like gathering her things and getting her

1364
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 5: child's like clothes together, she's you know, then there's another

1365
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:29,880
Speaker 5: officer downstairs, a shoot, a shouting's herd like shouting. They

1366
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:33,519
Speaker 5: were arguing and followed by two gunshots, and according to

1367
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:37,879
Speaker 5: Officer Noonan, who is the shooter in this situation, Kelsey

1368
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:41,360
Speaker 5: lunged toward a hidden firearm that she had. Remember she

1369
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 5: said they were all locked away, Well, she had one

1370
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:48,160
Speaker 5: hidden and according to him, she lunged toward a hidden firearm,

1371
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:52,599
Speaker 5: pointed it at him, pulled the trigger, which, by the way,

1372
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:56,400
Speaker 5: thankfully if this is all true, misfired and began to

1373
01:11:56,560 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 5: racket to fire again, prompting him to fire twel and

1374
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 5: she was hit in the chest. But you know, she

1375
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:04,640
Speaker 5: was saying, of the hospital and she survived. Obviously she

1376
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 5: survived the shot the chest. Yeah. AnyWho, that's the situation.

1377
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:11,720
Speaker 5: That's where we are. So what happened? Did they have

1378
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:12,759
Speaker 5: to keep happening?

1379
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:16,720
Speaker 10: That's such a good question. Now they're saving money there

1380
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,680
Speaker 10: in north andover. Uh yeah, no body camp. So it

1381
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:23,520
Speaker 10: really becomes it, he said, She said no way, yeah,

1382
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:26,400
Speaker 10: which is which is frightening. And the problem with this

1383
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:29,439
Speaker 10: case doesn't even get to the merits. I mean, because

1384
01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:31,759
Speaker 10: we don't know what really happened. We have no idea

1385
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 10: she was. One of the critical issues is she was

1386
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 10: suffering from postpartum depression. They took her gun away, they

1387
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:40,440
Speaker 10: took her badge away. She was going through that process,

1388
01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:43,240
Speaker 10: and the baby was, you know, growing four months almost

1389
01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:46,400
Speaker 10: five by the time this happened, and and she had

1390
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:49,160
Speaker 10: just been given back her badge and her gun and

1391
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:52,680
Speaker 10: was going to return to work on July fourth, so

1392
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:55,320
Speaker 10: just a handful of days after this happened, So it

1393
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:58,599
Speaker 10: wasn't like she was in the throes of her condition.

1394
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 6: She had been clear to go back to work, right.

1395
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:06,080
Speaker 10: So we don't know how it all evolved other than

1396
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:09,559
Speaker 10: just what a normal person might think when your baby

1397
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:13,160
Speaker 10: daddy slash fiance doesn't meet you at a park. You

1398
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 10: go home not wondering why, and the next thing you know,

1399
01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 10: cops are on your doorstep with in order to take

1400
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:21,439
Speaker 10: away your child. Traumatic enough, and she went upstairs, as

1401
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:25,040
Speaker 10: Courtney said, really to pack up some clothes, and that's

1402
01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:30,160
Speaker 10: where the altercation took place. What's interesting about both Officer Noonan,

1403
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:32,559
Speaker 10: the one who shot her, you know double tap to

1404
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:35,840
Speaker 10: you know, send her mass just like they're trained. He

1405
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:40,120
Speaker 10: had been with miss Fitzsimmons, Officer Fitzimmons when she was

1406
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:43,880
Speaker 10: coming up through the department, and they both responded as

1407
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:49,520
Speaker 10: a team to this horrible mother baby murder suicide.

1408
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 5: Oh so they knew each other.

1409
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:53,320
Speaker 10: They knew each other. It was beyond just oh I

1410
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:55,719
Speaker 10: see you on the roll call. No, they rode together.

1411
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:59,240
Speaker 10: And there was that one crime and one murder suicide

1412
01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 10: that they responded to that really bonded them, you know.

1413
01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 6: And she was pregnant at the time.

1414
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:04,400
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh.

1415
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 6: So yeah.

1416
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:07,680
Speaker 10: So, so it wasn't just like a casual Oh yeah,

1417
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:09,760
Speaker 10: I knew her in this, no big deal. I shot her.

1418
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:11,640
Speaker 10: I mean, this was I'm sure it was traumatic for

1419
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:14,240
Speaker 10: him and maybe he did fear for his life. Maybe

1420
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:17,559
Speaker 10: her attempt to threaten self harm looked more to him

1421
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:18,639
Speaker 10: like a threat on him.

1422
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:19,439
Speaker 5: We don't know.

1423
01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 6: We don't know any of that.

1424
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 10: All the stuff that we don't know yet is what

1425
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:28,840
Speaker 10: this case is ultimately about. However, what's most annoying, and

1426
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:31,040
Speaker 10: I'll say this now, it's hard to believe the judge

1427
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:33,080
Speaker 10: involved in this case at this point, which is a

1428
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:41,080
Speaker 10: bail revocation process, Judge McCarthy, Kathleen McCarthy, did something so outrageous,

1429
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:44,479
Speaker 10: so egregious, that it would make Beverly Canoni look like

1430
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:50,040
Speaker 10: a whin stop. Oh yes, here's what happened. So first appearance. Oh,

1431
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 10: first of all, Miss Fitzimmons goes to the hospital for

1432
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:58,799
Speaker 10: fifty three days, two surgeries. She still has bullet fragments

1433
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 10: in her back from the shoe, I guess, so she goes.

1434
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:06,479
Speaker 10: Once she's well enough, she's arranged and they set up

1435
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:08,000
Speaker 10: a release program.

1436
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 6: Not unusual.

1437
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:11,479
Speaker 10: The ultimate charge against her was assault with the deadly weapon.

1438
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:15,519
Speaker 10: They had the Andover police and the prosecution wanted her

1439
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:19,600
Speaker 10: to be charged with intent to commit murder, but the

1440
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:21,560
Speaker 10: grand jury wouldn't even indict her on that. So that

1441
01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 10: tells you how low threshold is. The evidence wasn't there.

1442
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:29,040
Speaker 10: So we're talking about one solid charge that's very bailable.

1443
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:30,960
Speaker 10: It's not like she's up for murder and they're not

1444
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 10: going to let her out. One of the conditions was

1445
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 10: a breathalyzer called scram Sands for secured something something, alcohol

1446
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:41,439
Speaker 10: monitoring something. And so it happens every three or four

1447
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:43,439
Speaker 10: times a day where you have to, you know, you

1448
01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:44,360
Speaker 10: breathe into that thing.

1449
01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:48,280
Speaker 6: You know, you all know that, you all know the breathalyzers.

1450
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 6: How many times have we all done?

1451
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:54,320
Speaker 10: It takes a lot of breath, right, and with the

1452
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:59,759
Speaker 10: wounds and broken ribs and lung and it was hurting her. Okay,

1453
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:03,360
Speaker 10: so she was released with that condition. She went back

1454
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:05,479
Speaker 10: in with her attorney, who was a great attorney, Tim Bradle,

1455
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:08,679
Speaker 10: and said, look, Judge, there's no issue with her violating

1456
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,360
Speaker 10: her release, but we want to get a modification. Can

1457
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:14,280
Speaker 10: she do urine testing something that isn't going to hurt

1458
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:18,519
Speaker 10: so much. This judge ignored everything that was said, ignored

1459
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 10: her probation officer saying no, she hasn't violated anything. We're

1460
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 10: here to try and get this fixed, and said, well,

1461
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:27,520
Speaker 10: we don't want her to be hurt by this breathing apparatus.

1462
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 10: So the only way to fix things and make sure

1463
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:32,479
Speaker 10: she doesn't use alcohol is to put her back in jail. No,

1464
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:35,960
Speaker 10: so she is back in jail now, back in jail,

1465
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:38,120
Speaker 10: has been there since that second hearing, which is coming

1466
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:40,320
Speaker 10: up on a month. I did a live broadcast from

1467
01:16:40,320 --> 01:16:44,559
Speaker 10: outside her correctional facility there in Chickapee, Massachusetts, which is

1468
01:16:44,760 --> 01:16:48,560
Speaker 10: far west, and she's stuck in there. But when we

1469
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:50,680
Speaker 10: get a chance to talk about they've just filed an

1470
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:54,200
Speaker 10: emergency petition. The DA is supposed to respond to it tomorrow.

1471
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:55,960
Speaker 10: She may have some good news by the end of

1472
01:16:55,960 --> 01:17:00,160
Speaker 10: the week. Because they're pointing out how outrageous this judge app.

1473
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:06,280
Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, this is wild understatement. Yeah, stick with us,

1474
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:09,360
Speaker 4: Michael Bryant, he will be here. We're going to discuss

1475
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:13,160
Speaker 4: the delay in the Brian Walsh trial and also why

1476
01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:17,960
Speaker 4: his defense is raising new questions about mental competency. Keep

1477
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:20,000
Speaker 4: it here at True Crime tonight. We're talking true crime

1478
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:20,559
Speaker 4: all the time.

1479
01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:32,200
Speaker 5: So Michael, what's going to happen next?

1480
01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:37,320
Speaker 10: Well, hopefully, you know, the petition will convince the Supreme

1481
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 10: Judicial Court, the SJC, they call it Massachusetts to overturn

1482
01:17:42,200 --> 01:17:46,200
Speaker 10: this trial judge who has ignored every rule in the book,

1483
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:51,200
Speaker 10: seemingly with the agenda to put Kelsey Fitzsimmons back in jail.

1484
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:54,280
Speaker 10: Nobody seems to understand why she's ignoring all There are

1485
01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:57,040
Speaker 10: looser rules in a bail hearing or a probation or

1486
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:01,280
Speaker 10: release condition hearing, which is what this was initially. You know,

1487
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:03,880
Speaker 10: you don't have to follow all the evidentiary rules. They

1488
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:06,240
Speaker 10: had a guy on the stand, the probation officer, and

1489
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:08,519
Speaker 10: he talked about how everything was fine. They had a

1490
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:12,120
Speaker 10: letter from her surgeon saying this kind of deep breathing

1491
01:18:12,120 --> 01:18:15,719
Speaker 10: for this device is painful. She said, now I can't,

1492
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:16,360
Speaker 10: I can't look at that.

1493
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:18,760
Speaker 6: It's hearsay. Well, yeah, it is hearsay, but.

1494
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:22,519
Speaker 10: In that context of that proceeding, it's okay to consider it.

1495
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:26,840
Speaker 6: And she just ignored that. So this woman's bad news.

1496
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:33,360
Speaker 10: Kathleen McCarthy, Sorry McCarthy, Kathleen McCarthy, not good.

1497
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:33,920
Speaker 6: Not good.

1498
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:36,960
Speaker 2: It's really interesting because you think the justice system and

1499
01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:39,559
Speaker 2: I like to believe because I so believe in our

1500
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:42,160
Speaker 2: justice system. It's like the greatest in the world, right,

1501
01:18:42,280 --> 01:18:44,519
Speaker 2: So you just assume that the rules are the rules,

1502
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:47,840
Speaker 2: and it always is so wild to me that there

1503
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:51,080
Speaker 2: is this. Yeah, you go to court, it's a wild card.

1504
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:55,160
Speaker 2: It could go so many different ways. And oftentimes whoever

1505
01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:58,040
Speaker 2: has the best lawyer wins, or whoever has the best

1506
01:18:58,120 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 2: lawyer who found the quickest loop wins. And sometimes it's

1507
01:19:02,200 --> 01:19:04,400
Speaker 2: not about justice at all. You know, this woman has

1508
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:06,840
Speaker 2: been through a lot, the fact that your behind bar

1509
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:10,439
Speaker 2: is waiting for your next steps and could be killed

1510
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:14,680
Speaker 2: behind bars in process, and you know it's it's one

1511
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:17,560
Speaker 2: of those things too. You know, as a trial attorney, Michael,

1512
01:19:17,280 --> 01:19:19,600
Speaker 2: I'm telling you as if you don't know, because you

1513
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 2: help so many people in your work but you know attorneys,

1514
01:19:24,200 --> 01:19:26,680
Speaker 2: the good ones really are the are the ones that

1515
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:27,719
Speaker 2: move the needle.

1516
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:30,080
Speaker 5: And by the way, that's very expensive. Not everybody can

1517
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:31,160
Speaker 5: have that.

1518
01:19:31,160 --> 01:19:33,920
Speaker 10: That's so true. And Tim Bradle is a great attorney.

1519
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:37,839
Speaker 10: And the audio from that first hearing is so revealing

1520
01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:40,640
Speaker 10: because you hear how shocked he is that all of

1521
01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:43,559
Speaker 10: a sudden, this request to just change the conditions from

1522
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:47,680
Speaker 10: the breathalyzer to urine becomes we're taking your client and

1523
01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:52,120
Speaker 10: she breaks down, cries right cod because she she's sideswiped

1524
01:19:52,160 --> 01:19:54,560
Speaker 10: by this, this rogue judge.

1525
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:55,479
Speaker 2: Wow.

1526
01:19:55,560 --> 01:19:58,599
Speaker 5: Right, So I want to talk about Brian Walsh if

1527
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:02,240
Speaker 5: it's okay. So we know that his murder trial has

1528
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:05,719
Speaker 5: been postponed as his defense raises concerns about his mental

1529
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:10,639
Speaker 5: competency and following like he was stabbed in jail. He

1530
01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:13,000
Speaker 5: was recently stabbed in jail, and they're worried about his

1531
01:20:13,080 --> 01:20:17,919
Speaker 5: mental health and retesting of DNA and potential undisclosed evidence.

1532
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:22,200
Speaker 5: Brian Walsh is charged with murdering his wife, Anna Walsh

1533
01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:24,200
Speaker 5: on New Year's Day in twenty twenty three and covering

1534
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:26,519
Speaker 5: it up by disposing of her body throughout the city. Right.

1535
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:29,599
Speaker 5: Remember this she was planning on leaving him and moving

1536
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:33,840
Speaker 5: to Washington, d C. AnyWho, and by the way, her

1537
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:36,799
Speaker 5: body has never been recovered. He has pled not guilty

1538
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:40,400
Speaker 5: to first degree murder and related charges, and prosecutors allege

1539
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:45,120
Speaker 5: a deliberate effort to destroy evidence, including purchasing of cleaning

1540
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:49,120
Speaker 5: supplies and all these like crazy incriminating Google searches.

1541
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:50,719
Speaker 3: So he was.

1542
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:53,960
Speaker 5: Initially scheduled to be The trial was initially scheduled to

1543
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:58,920
Speaker 5: start in October twentieth and final pre trial hearings. They've

1544
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:03,800
Speaker 5: both been postponed owned because a judge has ordered him

1545
01:21:03,840 --> 01:21:08,680
Speaker 5: to undergo a twenty day mental health evaluation at Bridgewater

1546
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:13,840
Speaker 5: State Hospital to assess his competency. What is going on

1547
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:15,880
Speaker 5: in Massachusetts?

1548
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 10: Yeah, you think that there's issues there with this guy

1549
01:21:19,400 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 10: I've just accused of slicing up his think wife and

1550
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:26,879
Speaker 10: stuffing her in various locations around Boston.

1551
01:21:27,560 --> 01:21:27,960
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1552
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:30,640
Speaker 10: But here's what you have to remember about a competency.

1553
01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:33,639
Speaker 10: It's not an insanity, which is a very different thing

1554
01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:36,639
Speaker 10: to being competent for trial. You only need two things

1555
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:39,479
Speaker 10: to understand the charges against you and to be able

1556
01:21:39,560 --> 01:21:40,839
Speaker 10: to assist in your own defense.

1557
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:41,360
Speaker 6: That's it.

1558
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:44,040
Speaker 10: It's a pretty low standard. You could be kooky, but

1559
01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:48,080
Speaker 10: still past those two qualifications. So they're monitoring him for

1560
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:51,360
Speaker 10: twenty days. I'm assuming his team asked for that because

1561
01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:53,760
Speaker 10: they were up against this trial date and there's some

1562
01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:57,080
Speaker 10: unresolved evidentiary issues. And I hate to mention it, but

1563
01:21:57,120 --> 01:21:58,880
Speaker 10: it happens to involve the Karen Reid case.

1564
01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:02,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, here's what happened.

1565
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:07,240
Speaker 2: You'll remember all roads lead y six degrees of Karen.

1566
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:11,080
Speaker 10: You remember in her trials, both of them, those federal

1567
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:14,479
Speaker 10: experts that in the second trial, I can't remember the first,

1568
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:16,880
Speaker 10: but in the second trial, Judge Canoni wouldn't let them

1569
01:22:16,880 --> 01:22:21,920
Speaker 10: say FBI, so they had to say another organization or

1570
01:22:22,080 --> 01:22:25,200
Speaker 10: they or some other law enforcement You know what a

1571
01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:28,519
Speaker 10: ridiculous decision that was. Anyway, what happened was those guys

1572
01:22:28,520 --> 01:22:31,760
Speaker 10: were brought into the original Karen Reid case because of

1573
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:36,479
Speaker 10: the Michael Procter problem. They were brought in to investigate that.

1574
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:39,559
Speaker 10: As part of that investigation, they hired the experts that

1575
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:42,960
Speaker 10: we called the crash daddies. And so they come in

1576
01:22:43,479 --> 01:22:46,600
Speaker 10: as independent, you know, not in hired guns by the

1577
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:50,760
Speaker 10: defense or the prosecution. They're just independent and there and

1578
01:22:50,920 --> 01:22:54,519
Speaker 10: alysis says she was never driving the He was never

1579
01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:56,960
Speaker 10: hit by the car she was driving. Bottom line, I

1580
01:22:56,960 --> 01:22:59,960
Speaker 10: don't care what you'd try to spin if she didn't

1581
01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:01,000
Speaker 10: hit him.

1582
01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:02,599
Speaker 6: What are we doing here?

1583
01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:06,080
Speaker 10: Those guys were then used again in trial number two,

1584
01:23:06,200 --> 01:23:09,080
Speaker 10: and the jury, from those who have spoken, clearly got it.

1585
01:23:09,360 --> 01:23:12,599
Speaker 10: You know there was no collision. But what happened was this,

1586
01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:17,240
Speaker 10: Those reports and other FBI investigative materials were turned over

1587
01:23:17,240 --> 01:23:20,439
Speaker 10: to the Karen Reid defense team, right, you know, it's like,

1588
01:23:20,479 --> 01:23:24,640
Speaker 10: oh mana from heaven. Well it's freemies. Now, all of

1589
01:23:24,680 --> 01:23:27,040
Speaker 10: these defendants, including Brian Walsh, and there are a couple

1590
01:23:27,040 --> 01:23:30,840
Speaker 10: of other cases that are similarly situated, they say, well,

1591
01:23:30,880 --> 01:23:33,559
Speaker 10: wait a minute, there may be something in there for us,

1592
01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:37,040
Speaker 10: because all of these officers, Proctor and Tully and they're

1593
01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:41,600
Speaker 10: all intertwined, very incestuous group there. So they say, we

1594
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:44,840
Speaker 10: don't want that stuff destroyed. And the rules set out

1595
01:23:45,280 --> 01:23:48,320
Speaker 10: prior to these cases was that thirty days after Karen

1596
01:23:48,360 --> 01:23:51,720
Speaker 10: Reid's trial ended, that stuff's going to be destroyed. So

1597
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:53,920
Speaker 10: they all these defense teams jumped in and said, whoa

1598
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:57,519
Speaker 10: wait a minute, don't destroy that stuff because maybe some

1599
01:23:57,560 --> 01:24:00,280
Speaker 10: goodies in there for us. So they had to push

1600
01:24:00,280 --> 01:24:02,479
Speaker 10: it out, and they pushed the thirty days to ninety days.

1601
01:24:02,840 --> 01:24:05,800
Speaker 10: That also is coming to an end on the twentieth,

1602
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:08,920
Speaker 10: the day the trial was supposed to start. And the

1603
01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:11,280
Speaker 10: court has in camera looked at some of this stuff

1604
01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:13,880
Speaker 10: and they've decided. They didn't tip their hat as to what,

1605
01:24:14,240 --> 01:24:19,639
Speaker 10: but they said there is material in that investigative set

1606
01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:23,320
Speaker 10: of materials from the FBI that the defense might benefit from.

1607
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:26,320
Speaker 10: It might be exculpatory, it might just help them in

1608
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:30,080
Speaker 10: their case. So there is something out there that they

1609
01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 10: need to see and I think, among other things, they

1610
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:36,680
Speaker 10: want more time to evaluate whatever it may be, and

1611
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:40,400
Speaker 10: that would cause them to push the trial date as well.

1612
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:45,759
Speaker 5: My notes say that lawyers for Brian Walsh and other

1613
01:24:46,120 --> 01:24:50,839
Speaker 5: defendants have been waiting for months and months and months

1614
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:55,320
Speaker 5: for the Norfolk District Attorney's Office to release critical evidence,

1615
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:59,799
Speaker 5: including three thousand to five thousand pieces of communications stored

1616
01:24:59,840 --> 01:25:01,120
Speaker 5: in Procter's phone.

1617
01:25:01,520 --> 01:25:03,000
Speaker 3: Oh this is crazy.

1618
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:05,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's a thing about I don't know.

1619
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:09,680
Speaker 5: It's like these tentacles that just keep you know, it's

1620
01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:13,920
Speaker 5: setting though, because like you don't believe in the system, and.

1621
01:25:13,840 --> 01:25:16,120
Speaker 10: You know what, you know what bothers me as much

1622
01:25:16,160 --> 01:25:19,479
Speaker 10: as anything. Yes, you've got these rules. Yes the prosecution

1623
01:25:19,600 --> 01:25:21,559
Speaker 10: is supposed to follow them, but you know what, ultimately

1624
01:25:21,560 --> 01:25:25,440
Speaker 10: the judge has to have some balls and do something true.

1625
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:28,400
Speaker 10: The judge just continues to give them more rope. You know,

1626
01:25:28,520 --> 01:25:30,559
Speaker 10: Oh you need another couple of weeks, Hey have another

1627
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:31,120
Speaker 10: couple of weeks.

1628
01:25:31,200 --> 01:25:34,799
Speaker 6: It is. It is aggravating because what good are the rules?

1629
01:25:35,200 --> 01:25:35,400
Speaker 6: You know?

1630
01:25:35,560 --> 01:25:37,880
Speaker 10: And we have situations with this discovery in all these

1631
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:40,400
Speaker 10: other cases where it's a year, it's more than a year,

1632
01:25:40,640 --> 01:25:42,559
Speaker 10: and they just keep saying, well, we're working on it,

1633
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:47,520
Speaker 10: or they provide documents that are totally redacted, they're blank effectively,

1634
01:25:49,120 --> 01:25:51,280
Speaker 10: and so it's a it's a it's a disease with

1635
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:52,080
Speaker 10: those guys.

1636
01:25:52,439 --> 01:25:53,200
Speaker 5: Unbelievable.

1637
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:57,679
Speaker 4: I have a question, So Michael Proctor, as we talked

1638
01:25:57,680 --> 01:26:02,960
Speaker 4: about he was fired, how much is his firing and

1639
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:05,240
Speaker 4: the misconduct and what came out and Karen read, how

1640
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:08,599
Speaker 4: much do you think that's going to impact kind of

1641
01:26:08,640 --> 01:26:11,599
Speaker 4: all his cases that he worked on that are coming up,

1642
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:15,639
Speaker 4: and the cases of people who have been incarcerated because

1643
01:26:15,640 --> 01:26:15,920
Speaker 4: of it.

1644
01:26:16,439 --> 01:26:19,839
Speaker 10: First, Yeah, yeah, there's no doubt if you were involved

1645
01:26:19,840 --> 01:26:21,800
Speaker 10: in a case in which your client was convicted, he

1646
01:26:21,840 --> 01:26:25,040
Speaker 10: was a key player. You're all over that clearly. And

1647
01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:28,040
Speaker 10: as for cases going forward, you know, those that have

1648
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 10: not been adjudicated but he was involved with, you're gonna

1649
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 10: have the same situation. You know, you're going to call

1650
01:26:33,200 --> 01:26:35,160
Speaker 10: him as a witness and you're going to go over

1651
01:26:35,200 --> 01:26:39,439
Speaker 10: whatever he worked on and you know, and character shreds

1652
01:26:39,439 --> 01:26:43,360
Speaker 10: because he has zero credibility. But wait a minute, October twentieth,

1653
01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:45,720
Speaker 10: twenty first, and twenty second. I think I've got those

1654
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:49,920
Speaker 10: dates right. His hearing continues because he wants his job back.

1655
01:26:50,040 --> 01:26:52,719
Speaker 5: Of course, not goodness, not the job back.

1656
01:26:52,960 --> 01:26:59,519
Speaker 10: Yeah, and already testifying in that that process was remember

1657
01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:03,439
Speaker 10: the first d for the Commonwealth lollie, Yeah, oh he

1658
01:27:03,520 --> 01:27:06,800
Speaker 10: testified already. That was a nightmare. Proctor is supposed to

1659
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:10,200
Speaker 10: testify as well. So, yeah, he wants his job back.

1660
01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:14,000
Speaker 5: That's what kind of insane personality do you have to

1661
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:16,720
Speaker 5: have to have the you know, the colonies to want

1662
01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:17,760
Speaker 5: your job back after this?

1663
01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:23,080
Speaker 2: Well sometimes propress yeah, you get like, you know, kind

1664
01:27:23,120 --> 01:27:25,960
Speaker 2: of this godlike thing. Just as a practical question for

1665
01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:30,479
Speaker 2: you guys, briefly, what could Karen read in retrospect have

1666
01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:34,200
Speaker 2: done so you're arrested for a crime you didn't commit,

1667
01:27:34,280 --> 01:27:36,479
Speaker 2: but everybody around you was like, so you.

1668
01:27:36,439 --> 01:27:37,800
Speaker 5: Did it, Yes he did.

1669
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:41,160
Speaker 2: And you start to even like believe the you're drinking

1670
01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:43,040
Speaker 2: the kool aid that they're feeding you. Meanwhile, they're the

1671
01:27:43,080 --> 01:27:46,080
Speaker 2: ones plotting against you to frame you for the crime

1672
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:50,080
Speaker 2: that maybe they committed in the house. So, looking back,

1673
01:27:50,200 --> 01:27:52,360
Speaker 2: just as a trial attorney, and we've all covered this

1674
01:27:52,400 --> 01:27:55,200
Speaker 2: for so long, is there something that you would say,

1675
01:27:55,320 --> 01:27:58,759
Speaker 2: Karen Reid? Or if anybody finds themselves in this position

1676
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:00,800
Speaker 2: like this, now you're in.

1677
01:28:00,800 --> 01:28:03,160
Speaker 3: The world stage, what do you do.

1678
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:07,920
Speaker 2: I think that she was just disliked so much by

1679
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:09,840
Speaker 2: so many that I don't think that helped her, And

1680
01:28:09,880 --> 01:28:13,040
Speaker 2: I certainly that should not be the reason for justice

1681
01:28:13,160 --> 01:28:16,920
Speaker 2: is whether or not you're likable. That seems crazy. I

1682
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:21,640
Speaker 2: actually found her perfectly likable. But I wonder, you know,

1683
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:25,000
Speaker 2: what would she have done. She had a good lawyer,

1684
01:28:25,479 --> 01:28:28,479
Speaker 2: she had family who stood behind her, she had conviction,

1685
01:28:28,640 --> 01:28:31,360
Speaker 2: and she was brave, and she she took up and

1686
01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:33,479
Speaker 2: she stood there and she took it and didn't become

1687
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:35,800
Speaker 2: a crazy person screaming at the stand like I would

1688
01:28:35,800 --> 01:28:38,559
Speaker 2: have done. If someone was lying about you, person after

1689
01:28:38,600 --> 01:28:40,880
Speaker 2: person after person, that's that's really hard.

1690
01:28:41,960 --> 01:28:45,360
Speaker 10: I think two things are happening with her that were

1691
01:28:46,080 --> 01:28:48,439
Speaker 10: against her at the jump. One is one of my

1692
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:53,200
Speaker 10: axioms is never underestimate the power of likability, so the

1693
01:28:53,240 --> 01:28:56,200
Speaker 10: opposite's true, never underestimate the power of unlikability. So I

1694
01:28:56,200 --> 01:28:59,880
Speaker 10: think she was a cool customer, which people could enter

1695
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:04,360
Speaker 10: it as standoffish, you know, uptight, smug, cocky, whatever, and

1696
01:29:04,880 --> 01:29:07,880
Speaker 10: lead them to not root for her. On the other side,

1697
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:12,400
Speaker 10: you've got a dead police officer, Yeah, so people want

1698
01:29:12,439 --> 01:29:16,559
Speaker 10: to find, you know, justice for him. And she's sitting

1699
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:18,840
Speaker 10: there and I don't kind of like her anyway, and

1700
01:29:18,880 --> 01:29:19,240
Speaker 10: she's not.

1701
01:29:19,320 --> 01:29:22,000
Speaker 5: Crying over his death. She's not like my John, My John,

1702
01:29:22,040 --> 01:29:23,559
Speaker 5: My John. She's like this guy.

1703
01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:26,400
Speaker 10: I remember the phone calls that were played. You know,

1704
01:29:26,520 --> 01:29:28,920
Speaker 10: she is screaming like a lunatic at this guy.

1705
01:29:29,320 --> 01:29:29,559
Speaker 6: Now.

1706
01:29:29,640 --> 01:29:32,760
Speaker 10: I interpreted a lot of that as as fear, not

1707
01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:33,559
Speaker 10: as anger.

1708
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:34,840
Speaker 6: You know, I did too.

1709
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:37,240
Speaker 2: I thought she sounded kind of like she was really

1710
01:29:37,280 --> 01:29:39,720
Speaker 2: concerned for him, and she sounded like she had been

1711
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:42,000
Speaker 2: out all night and was like lost her mind a

1712
01:29:42,000 --> 01:29:44,760
Speaker 2: little bit, you know, And that's you can see that,

1713
01:29:45,040 --> 01:29:47,479
Speaker 2: you know, she was. That was not her finest moment.

1714
01:29:47,600 --> 01:29:52,280
Speaker 2: But I didn't really hear it as like a plot point.

1715
01:29:52,360 --> 01:29:52,839
Speaker 6: Now.

1716
01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:54,760
Speaker 10: In fact, if you look at the timing of the

1717
01:29:54,800 --> 01:29:57,479
Speaker 10: different calls and things, she'd have to be, you know,

1718
01:29:58,760 --> 01:30:01,360
Speaker 10: an Academy Award winning Meryl Streep well off the tone

1719
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:04,480
Speaker 10: of those calls after, you know, if you believe the prosecution,

1720
01:30:04,640 --> 01:30:06,640
Speaker 10: she left him in the snow there twelve thirty two

1721
01:30:07,680 --> 01:30:10,360
Speaker 10: and hours later she's screaming and yelling.

1722
01:30:10,080 --> 01:30:11,960
Speaker 6: Where are you, John? You're an asshole here.

1723
01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:13,640
Speaker 10: Oh I'm sorry, I can't say that you're I mean,

1724
01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:17,720
Speaker 10: all of those she's just going nuts, but acting as

1725
01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:20,200
Speaker 10: if she doesn't know where he is. Wow, that's amazing

1726
01:30:20,240 --> 01:30:22,559
Speaker 10: acting chops. I just don't give her that credit.

1727
01:30:23,240 --> 01:30:25,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think she was just the outsider from

1728
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:29,360
Speaker 2: this little band of boys and their wives. And you know,

1729
01:30:29,479 --> 01:30:31,400
Speaker 2: they didn't really like her in the first place, and

1730
01:30:31,439 --> 01:30:34,360
Speaker 2: they thought John O'Keeffe could do better. And you know,

1731
01:30:34,520 --> 01:30:36,519
Speaker 2: she does have a cool way about him, but they

1732
01:30:36,520 --> 01:30:39,120
Speaker 2: did have a nice relationship. I do feel bad for

1733
01:30:39,160 --> 01:30:42,519
Speaker 2: the O'Keefe family, though, because she is so stoic, you know,

1734
01:30:42,680 --> 01:30:44,960
Speaker 2: so she's giving stoic and they probably wanted to see

1735
01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:45,920
Speaker 2: some emotion from her.

1736
01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:48,200
Speaker 5: And I know what I feel sorry, father.

1737
01:30:48,680 --> 01:30:50,880
Speaker 10: I feel sorry for them for another reason. That is,

1738
01:30:50,920 --> 01:30:52,599
Speaker 10: I think they've been sold to bill of goods by

1739
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:55,320
Speaker 10: the Commonwealth, you know, first through two trials and now

1740
01:30:55,320 --> 01:30:57,000
Speaker 10: they're going to see it again in a civil matter.

1741
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:00,439
Speaker 10: You know, they've been told this is what happen, happened,

1742
01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:03,479
Speaker 10: and jury didn't believe it, and they're stuck. You know,

1743
01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:05,400
Speaker 10: do they really believe that she had anything to do

1744
01:31:05,400 --> 01:31:07,519
Speaker 10: with John O'Keefe's death or are they just in denial

1745
01:31:07,560 --> 01:31:08,639
Speaker 10: on what might have really happened.

1746
01:31:09,200 --> 01:31:10,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a tough one.

1747
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:13,040
Speaker 2: You know. It's interesting about the drinking. I just don't

1748
01:31:13,080 --> 01:31:16,040
Speaker 2: because I was found that surprising that they were allowed

1749
01:31:16,040 --> 01:31:17,439
Speaker 2: to get behind the wheels, all of them.

1750
01:31:17,479 --> 01:31:20,000
Speaker 6: Oh my gosh. It seems to be just routine there.

1751
01:31:21,240 --> 01:31:24,439
Speaker 5: I do believe that the O'Keeffes believe Karen is guilty.

1752
01:31:25,560 --> 01:31:27,559
Speaker 5: I don't think it's I don't think it's a stretch

1753
01:31:27,920 --> 01:31:28,439
Speaker 5: to think that.

1754
01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:31,360
Speaker 10: Well, I know, if you're looking for some justice for

1755
01:31:31,479 --> 01:31:34,200
Speaker 10: you know, the loss of your son, right, you know,

1756
01:31:35,000 --> 01:31:37,120
Speaker 10: when the target is put on her so early and

1757
01:31:37,200 --> 01:31:39,400
Speaker 10: all other possibilities are never really investigated.

1758
01:31:39,479 --> 01:31:41,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, I guess you're right totally.

1759
01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:44,760
Speaker 5: Just like all these guys too. These are her you know,

1760
01:31:44,920 --> 01:31:45,719
Speaker 5: son's buds.

1761
01:31:46,040 --> 01:31:48,479
Speaker 2: They all came up together, So she knows all these guys,

1762
01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:49,840
Speaker 2: you know, soya.

1763
01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:51,400
Speaker 5: So why would she think they had anything to do

1764
01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:51,720
Speaker 5: with it?

1765
01:31:51,800 --> 01:31:51,960
Speaker 2: Right?

1766
01:31:52,080 --> 01:31:54,360
Speaker 5: Like it's such a tough son was like this wholesome,

1767
01:31:54,680 --> 01:31:58,400
Speaker 5: wonderful cop who took care is taken care of for grandkids,

1768
01:31:58,479 --> 01:32:00,920
Speaker 5: you know, like all of his friends of course, are

1769
01:32:00,960 --> 01:32:03,479
Speaker 5: going to be amazing people as well. It's not a

1770
01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:07,040
Speaker 5: stretch for the o'keefes to be like, obviously Karen's guilty.

1771
01:32:07,120 --> 01:32:09,360
Speaker 5: Like they got it wrong, the jury got it wrong.

1772
01:32:09,439 --> 01:32:11,840
Speaker 5: I just don't think it's a stretch to think that

1773
01:32:11,960 --> 01:32:13,400
Speaker 5: if you're the o'keefes, right.

1774
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:17,160
Speaker 2: It's so true. Well listen, Michael, Brian's so happy to

1775
01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:19,040
Speaker 2: have you with us. Make sure you check it out

1776
01:32:19,080 --> 01:32:23,040
Speaker 2: of course, and Justice served TV network. He's the executive

1777
01:32:23,080 --> 01:32:26,720
Speaker 2: producer and host, your friend. Thank you for breaking it

1778
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:29,880
Speaker 2: down for us all things Karen, and you'll be back

1779
01:32:30,000 --> 01:32:30,479
Speaker 2: very soon.

1780
01:32:31,000 --> 01:32:31,840
Speaker 5: And then tomorrow.

1781
01:32:31,960 --> 01:32:34,960
Speaker 2: Remember the woman who was accused of killing her fifth

1782
01:32:35,040 --> 01:32:39,040
Speaker 2: husband with insulin. She's been charged, so we're going to

1783
01:32:39,120 --> 01:32:41,800
Speaker 2: have that verdict tomorrow. This is true crime Tonight. We'll

1784
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:55,760
Speaker 2: see you tomorrow, Stay safe,