1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's hear it for the keeper of 4 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: our zoo, guest producer Paul Mission Control second. 5 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: He's a very benevolent zoo keeper. He gives us treats 6 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 2: all kind hats and knows where just where it would 7 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 2: a scritch, right behind the ear. 8 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: He lets us play with our phones too, which a 9 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: lot of primates can't do. 10 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 3: That's what I got. 11 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, what a hilarious thing to discus over the I 12 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 2: believe it is the Toronto Zoo. Yes, sir, yeah, that 13 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: was has a mandate not allowing visitors to show the 14 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: primates funny videos on their phones. Yes, yes, it was 15 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 2: causing them to experience some kind of disconnection from their 16 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: their you know, their mates. 17 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: They fell for the TikTok treads. Apparently it made them 18 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: act and process things differently. I'm ben your nol. This 19 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: is an exciting two part series, at least two parts. 20 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: Like you said earlier, dude, this may be something where 21 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: we revisit with a part three, but for now we're 22 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: talking about animals on trial. Man. 23 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, animals on trial. You know, we started off with 24 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: a laundry list of some kind of uh messed up 25 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: historical examples of animals being put on trial, maybe for 26 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: the a little bit more self serving, for for religious 27 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 2: and institutions. 28 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 4: Wine, This wine should be put to death, and it's 29 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 4: human owner shall be made to create a dowry such 30 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 4: that the iarless child may be married. 31 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 3: Perhaps in the hopes theref Yeah. 32 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,679 Speaker 2: But now well, and you know, in the back half 33 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 2: of the first episode, we moved much more towards modern 34 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: day of animal activist groups starting to kind of beat 35 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 2: the drum of animal you know, treating animals more like 36 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 2: people or at least giving them certain rights. And you know, 37 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: we had some discussions of some laws that have passed 38 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: in you know, certain places in the country and in 39 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 2: the world requiring you know, more humane treatment of animals 40 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: before they are ultimately slaughter, which. 41 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 3: I've always found kind of funny. I guess it's not. 42 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 3: I mean, of course, you know, you don't want them 43 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 3: to be tortured and suffer. 44 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: You know, obviously meat eating is a thing that's not 45 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: going anywhere. Can you imagine any of this ever going 46 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: to the extent of like it's illegal to kill. 47 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: Animals possibly, but if for that to happen, nol humanity 48 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: would be in a pretty dire situation already, right, like 49 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: biodiversity is decreasing at a profoundly disturbing rate. We know 50 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: that in the Anthropis scene, which is this current era 51 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: the age of Man, we know that Earth is experiencing 52 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: probably its sixth mass extinction. If you were listening now, 53 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: then there were far more animals alive when you were 54 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: born than there are as you're hearing this episode. It's 55 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: a bad situation. And also, you know, I'm really glad 56 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: you bring up this idea about eating meats, as you know, 57 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: because Noel and I do hang out off air with 58 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: each other. We are actually friends. As you know, dude, 59 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: I was vegetarian and vegan for a number of years, 60 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: and I I came back to becoming an omnivore when 61 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: I was living in a place where I did not 62 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: have the privilege to control a diet that way. And sometimes, 63 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: you know, we do have to remember, of course, for 64 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,799 Speaker 1: any vegans vegetarians in the crowd, there are sustainable, non 65 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: cartoonish ways to practice veganism and vegetarianism. But for a 66 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: lot of people in the world, for billions of people, 67 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: that is simply not an opportunity within their scope of experience. 68 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: So we have to be like careful not to look 69 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: down on people for their dietary choices. 70 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 2: Sure, and just being you know, Devil's advocate here just 71 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 2: for a split second. Aren't there some people that go 72 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 2: so far as to make the argument that vegetables have 73 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: feelings too? I mean, they are they are living beings. 74 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 2: You know, they require nutrients, They require certain conditions to 75 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 2: allow them to quote unquote live. And are we not 76 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 2: committing vegetable genocide when we plow the fields? You know, 77 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 2: I mean, just there, it's a slippery slope. Plants do 78 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 2: communicate with each other. There's another stuff they want, you know, 79 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: episode about that. There's some excellent research going on there, 80 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: and slippery slope is absolutely correct in my opinion. It's 81 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 2: if given that humans don't have a definition of intelligence, 82 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 2: nor sentience nor sapiens, where does it stop. 83 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like, what what is okay 84 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: to eat? And for any what are they called breath 85 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: arians in the crowd? Remember that scam where there was 86 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: like that one guy who's like, oh, you know, follow 87 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: me and you'll learn to subsist off just sun and 88 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: air didn't work out, by the way, spoilers. 89 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 3: WO wouldn't think. 90 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 2: So you can probably, you know, you can get some 91 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: you know, get some vitamins you know that way, but 92 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 2: not enough to subsist on and then to survive. But yeah, 93 00:05:58,040 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: I mean, we we've heard about some of these activists 94 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: that have tried to give animals protection under laws, not 95 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 2: just using more modern laws surrounding animal welfare, but things 96 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 2: specifically that would be applied more to humans. Right then, 97 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: the like for example, People for the Ethical Treatment of 98 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 2: Animals PETA, which can be a very divisive group if 99 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 2: well meaning, whether it be through some of the extreme 100 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: imagery of their campaigns or you know, some of the 101 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 2: initiatives that they that they go after, which we're going 102 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: to hear about some of them that maybe you would 103 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: say are pushing the boundaries of insanity. 104 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 105 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, And in PETA's defense, of course, it's a huge, 106 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: huge organization, right, so it will not always be internally uniform. 107 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: There are gonna there is going to be dissent at 108 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: any time. So I love you're setting this up all right, PETA. 109 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: Once upon a time, sued A photographer David Slater. David 110 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: Slater had been taking some nature photos of wild maccoq's 111 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: mccac's and one day these, uh, these creatures there very 112 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: very clever monkeys. They used his camera to take selfies 113 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: and Slater said, this is amazing and he's right, by 114 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: the way, it is a cool it's a cool series 115 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: of photos. And he published them, presumably. 116 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 2: After getting them the ape to swipe for him on 117 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: tender right. 118 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, just so and so so. Peter sues David Slater 119 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: in federal court and they say, look, this photographer infringed 120 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: upon the copyright of the monkeys. The judge kicked this 121 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: suit out of court quick fasted in a hurry and said, 122 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: I am not the person weigh in on this. This 123 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: is an issue for Congress and the president one exactly, 124 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: Joe Biden, stop cancel everything on the president's schedule. We 125 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: need to talk about the monkeys selfies. 126 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: What No, I get it though, right, because it is 127 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: just a big old ball of worms. I yeah, I 128 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: make some real metaphors there, but a barrel of macacus 129 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: is what this is. Because there is Yeah, you're one 130 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: hundred percent right, pin. It would unleash just an unbridled 131 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: slew of cases, you know, I mean, there would just 132 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 2: be it would be no stopping it. So you gotta 133 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: really be careful with this kind of thing. I do 134 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: think it's funny too, because doesn't copyright originate like on 135 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 2: the device sometimes too, So like if like even if 136 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 2: someone takes a picture using your camera and it's on 137 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 2: your device, can you really prove that? Well, I guess 138 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 2: you can prove it if it's a selfie. Never mind, 139 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: don't listen to me, but it is interesting here, and 140 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 2: it does seem like one of these sort of symbolic 141 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: lawsuits that Pete is so fond of. 142 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: No everybody listened to a If you are in court 143 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: for copyright, now you need to stand up. You need 144 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: to quote us up from Ridiculous History, right and say 145 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: from that show, from that show, Ridiculous History. And no 146 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: matter what anyone says, even if they agree with you, 147 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: be sure to shout. 148 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 3: You're out of order. 149 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: This who courts out of order to which the judge 150 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 2: will apply. I am not the person to weigh in 151 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: on this. This is an issue for Congress. 152 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 3: And the president. Take it right to the President's desk. 153 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 3: I love it. 154 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: I love it. 155 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: So the judge, yeah, I mean jokes aside, the judge 156 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: is probably airing on the right side of caution here 157 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 1: because you will set a precedent, and that's what all 158 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: these cases are about setting precedent. So I think you're right. 159 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: The judge said, I'm not touching this one. Other cases 160 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: around the world went further. In twenty thirteen, India's environmental 161 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: ministry said that citaceans are quote and we mentioned this 162 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: in that Legal Personhood episode on Stuff they want you 163 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 1: to Know. The government of India said, dolphins, whales, et 164 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: cetera at all are quote non human persons with quote 165 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: their own specific rights and that means you cannot keep 166 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,359 Speaker 1: them sea world style for entertainment. 167 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 2: A huge shout out to the economists again for some 168 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 2: of these bits, really really fantastic article there that highly 169 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 2: recommend you read the entire thing gradually nervously. 170 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 3: Courts are granting rights to animals. 171 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 2: Cetacean's been We talked in the last episode about how 172 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 2: pissed off dolphins and whales are at us. 173 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 3: You know, I forget. I think it's called the Cove. 174 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: There's a documentary about like the slaughter of dolphins in 175 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 2: Japan and it's a pair. I haven't seen it because 176 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: it just seemed like such a bummer, but I've read 177 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: about and I'm aware. You know, dolphins are the victim 178 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: of some significant brutal slaughtering using. 179 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,079 Speaker 3: Like lances, you know, So it's the whole thing. 180 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 2: And obviously whaling is I believe illegal now, but it's 181 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: more because they're endangered, I think, than the fact that 182 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: they're like sentient. I don't think it's a humanitarian you know, 183 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: on the part of the I think it's more like 184 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 2: their protected species. 185 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 3: Right. 186 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. The issue is that the majority of the human 187 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: world is against whaling, but you can still you can 188 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: still see whaling in practice, particularly in Norway and Japan. 189 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: In some cases it's advertised as like a tradition. Japan 190 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: did something really sketchy for a number of years where 191 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: they said they were culling whales for research purposes. Yeah, 192 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: they were researching them into a plate, you know what 193 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 1: I mean. 194 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's very similar with the cove and dolphins, 195 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: only that takes place in Japan as well. So the 196 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 2: fact and again we also know that these creatures communicate, 197 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 2: you know, using sonar, you know, and you communicate through 198 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 2: great distances underwater and that they are incredibly intelligent. If 199 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 2: you've seen the latest Avatar movie, James Cameron clearly has 200 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 2: an axe to grind in this argument. There's a whole 201 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 2: you know, save the Whales kind of vibe to that. 202 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 3: Movie Way of the Water. Mm hmm. Yeah. 203 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 2: I thought it was really great. I really enjoyed it. 204 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 2: I was not expecting to give two hoots about Avatar two, 205 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: but I. 206 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 3: Very much enjoy it. 207 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 2: That James Cameron really knows what he's doing in the 208 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 2: Avatar world at Disney is remarkable. 209 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: So also quote that in Quurte quote Avatar to Way 210 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: of Water. The year after India says no more citationans 211 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: kept for entertainment purposes, their Supreme Court says another has 212 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: another ruling that's profoundly fascinating. They say, look, all animals 213 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: have an inherent right to life under the Constitution of India, 214 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: but they can still be property, so like you can 215 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: still own chickens, but they do deserve to live. And 216 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: this case specifically revolved around a practice called forgive our 217 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: pronunciation here, folks Jali Cartou, in which men would take 218 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: possession of a young bull a male cow, and they 219 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: would tame it through torture, they would tame it by 220 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: mutilating it. And the court said, look, every species has 221 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: a right to life and security, and our view life 222 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: means something more than mere survival or instrumental value for 223 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 1: human beings. I love that. That is such a mic 224 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: drop moment, you. 225 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 2: Know, totally we get at least we could take that 226 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 2: advice with the way we interpret the Constitution, you know, 227 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: the idea that when we have the right to life, 228 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 2: liberty and of course the pursuit to have something, but 229 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: like life you know, in other countries means a hell 230 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 2: of a lot more than it does here in the 231 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 2: United States. You know, we do not have the right 232 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 2: to life in that we get like healthcare provided for us. 233 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,599 Speaker 2: You know, there are many that absolutely don't have the 234 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 2: right to life, you know, under that interpretation. 235 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 3: Of the Constitution. So this is pretty progressive, pretty wild. 236 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: It does make me think too bad about I mean 237 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 2: a lot of these issues too, of animal cruelty that 238 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: are sort of like supported by tradition, you know, and 239 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 2: in history, like bullfighting, you know, which is obviously pretty horrific, 240 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: but it's there's such a history of it, you know, 241 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: it's such a legacy behind it, like whole families that 242 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 2: every generation is like, you know, a matador or whatever. 243 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: So it's like, what are your thoughts on things like that, 244 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 2: and how these conversations apply to ultimately quite brutal practices 245 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 2: that are you know, abusive of animals but are really 246 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: really popular. 247 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: Like fois gras, like veal as. That's a negotiation to make. Yeah, 248 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: it's a good question, man, because ultimately, hopefully without sounding 249 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: too cynical, I would pause it that it's the money 250 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: that moves so for something that is a great economic benefit, 251 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, like bullfighting, it's not surprising that there would 252 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: be a lot of perhaps disingenuous arguments about legacy and 253 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: tradition and on and on and on. Those all feel 254 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: like they're just kind of code words for saying, look, 255 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: we make a lot of money off this, and we 256 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: need to continue profiting from it. Those practices are going 257 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: to stick around in some form or another, you know 258 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: what I mean. It wasn't too long ago in human 259 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: history where a great form of entertainment was to have 260 00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: a tied up captured bear fight dogs and yeah, or 261 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: bad audit, or a dude armed with a pointy stick 262 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: fight a lion, you know, in a pit. 263 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 3: Yeah exactly. 264 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: I mean again, our very definition of humanity and personhood 265 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: you know, has changed over time, Like in the time 266 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: of ancient Rome and in Greece and all that, a 267 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 2: slave not in the same as the slave trade that 268 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: we would have here in the United States would not 269 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 2: have been considered a person or a criminal is no 270 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: longer considered a person. And to a degree, you know, 271 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 2: it gets complicated here when we think about the prison 272 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 2: system and like what rights actually you know, you're you're 273 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: stripped of rights when you do a thing, and oftentimes 274 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 2: we know based on We've had recent conversations with some 275 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 2: of the folks from. 276 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 3: Lava for Good about the problems. 277 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 2: Within the prison the justice system quote unquote, and how 278 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 2: when someone is stripped of their rights because of a crime, 279 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 2: even like their right to vote, isn't that removing a 280 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 2: certain amount of their personhood? 281 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: You know? Right exactly? This is again even with humans, 282 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: the idea of personhood is something that humans wrestle with, right, 283 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: So while it may sound overly ambitious to start thinking 284 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: of other non human creatures as deserving of rights, it 285 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: is absolutely a path that would be overall a net 286 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: gain for the world, like for biodiversity, for the environment, 287 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: probably for the economy at some point. The biggest legal 288 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: challenge that has arrived so far as we're recording this 289 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, the biggest legal challenges come from 290 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: attempts to give animals something called habeas corpus rights. Habeas 291 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: corpus is the idea that you have the body. We 292 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: always hear this in legal dramas, you know. It's essentially 293 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 1: it means in the human world, if you are under arrest, 294 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: then you have the right to be bought before a 295 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: judge or into and they have to prove that there 296 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: is a lawful legal reason to keep you locked up. 297 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: Because they have you locked up, they have the body. 298 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: Now they have to prove that there's a reason they 299 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: have that. So so think about this applied to zoos. Right, 300 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: If you are like Sousia, a chimpanzee in a Brazilian 301 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: zoo in two thousand and five, then animal rights activists 302 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: are going to fight on your behalf. This poor chimp 303 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: was found dead in her cage before the court could 304 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,719 Speaker 1: rule in this habeas corpus case. And then it happens 305 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: in all these other places, happened in Europe as well. 306 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 2: I have to imagine man that in the Brazilian case, 307 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 2: due to the you know, the animal obviously dying, that 308 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 2: there was a concern that the conditions were not good. 309 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 3: They pursued this. 310 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 2: But yeah, because I mean, again, we know that there 311 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: are certain zoo situations that are not bad, that where 312 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 2: the zoo keepers really are, you know, treating the them 313 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 2: all with respect and giving them a lot of attention, 314 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: and they have maybe not the same amount of room 315 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 2: as they would in the wild, but they have a 316 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 2: good bit of room and a good facsimile of their 317 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 2: kind of natural habitat, and a lot of them. If 318 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 2: they were out in the wild, they wouldn't make it. Sorry, 319 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 2: I don't mean to keep sounding like a zoo apologist. 320 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 2: I just really appreciate that mission. Yeah, exactly, I appreciate 321 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: that mission, you know, when it's done correctly, and obviously 322 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 2: in cases like this where it's treated more like a 323 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 2: circus attraction, you know, or it's no ca I mean, probably. 324 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 3: Some circuses are fine too, but it's all about. 325 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: How the animals are treated, and in this case, obviously 326 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 2: it led to the untimely death of this creature. In 327 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven activists in Austria applied to make 328 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 2: a member of their group the legal guardian of a 329 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 2: chimpanzee by the name of Hiel, which had been released 330 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 2: from a pharmaceutical lab. And in this case, the European 331 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: Court of Human Rights rejected this application. 332 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: Boo, there you know what they're biased. You can tell 333 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: in the name European Court of Human Rights. Get out 334 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: of here, you're out of your depth. 335 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 3: Well, unfortunately that's the thing, though the other one doesn't exist. 336 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 2: And what you know, I was talking to a friend 337 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 2: of the show, Frank well Hern yesterday about how legal 338 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: conversation and like you discussing things that. 339 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 3: Are like legal codes or whatever like ye, that are 340 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 3: on the books. 341 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 2: It's interesting because it kind of takes the whole idea 342 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 2: of like opinion out of things in a lot of ways, 343 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: because we all know that laws are imperfect. But that's 344 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 2: not the point. We're not here to debate whether the 345 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: laws are right or wrong. We're here to work within 346 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 2: the framework of what exists. So you have to figure 347 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 2: out how to navigate all of this animal stuff within 348 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 2: a body that literally has the name human in the title. 349 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 3: And then that's how this all started. 350 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 2: Was like you know, how do we navigate these human 351 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 2: laws and apply them to animals? Figure out a loophole 352 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 2: to get It's imperfect, all of it, you know, but 353 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 2: it is. It is what you have to do. 354 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: And there is some good news as of late, human 355 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: rights or excuse me, animal rights lawyers have started to 356 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 1: win some cases in court. In twenty fourteen, Argentina's Criminal 357 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,959 Speaker 1: Appeals Court found that Sandra and orangutan and the Buenos 358 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: Aire zou did count as a non human person and 359 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: they were This was an animal cruelty case, but this 360 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: was also a huge, huge win for animal rights. And 361 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: as longtime listeners may know, I have been going through 362 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: an orangutan rabbit hole obsession of late. So I'm pro. 363 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: I am pro arangutan man. 364 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 3: The cool creatures, no question. So do you know cool 365 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 3: is chimpanzees? 366 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 2: They'll also rip your head off if you mean to him, 367 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 2: and so don't be mean to him. But Cecilia, a 368 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 2: chimpanzee in a zoo in Argentina, was declared a non 369 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: human person who had been deprived of her freedom by 370 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 2: being placed in the zoo. 371 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 3: How about that. 372 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 2: Was ordered to be taken to a sanctuary in Brazil. 373 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: You know, because I mean the difference between the zoo 374 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: and a sanctuary. The sanctuary is like a piece of 375 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: land that is more natural. It is a natural environment 376 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 2: that is predetermined, and you know, there obviously are boundaries, 377 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 2: right like otherwise they would just escape and go into 378 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 2: gen pop or whatever. So, but it's not the same 379 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 2: as being held in a cage at a zoo. 380 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 381 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: And then in twenty seventeen in Colombia, we see the 382 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: Supreme Court of that country ruling that Chucho spectacles, Chucho, 383 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: a bear with spectacles, is counted as a non human person, 384 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: and they say, look, we're taking him out of this 385 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: zoo and we're putting him in a wildlife reserve. Uh, 386 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: he can keep his glasses. 387 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 3: And I love the idea of a bear with spectacles. 388 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 3: I think I think it's a breed. You're right, right, 389 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 3: you know, you were just I'm sorry. I'm sorry, that's all. 390 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 3: We can't have nice things. 391 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: I just you don't know. The truth is important. 392 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 2: And picturing the bear with glasses bouncing, dancing on a ball, 393 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 2: spinning plates, you know. 394 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: I I picture him like like Hank McCoy, like the 395 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: beast in the Marvel Years. I picture him in court, 396 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: going like, you know. 397 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 3: Do I not wear spectacles? You prick me? Do I 398 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 3: not bleed? Exactly? It's my fur not blue. 399 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 2: But outside of South America, we haven't really seen a 400 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 2: lot of these arguments carry much water. 401 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. 402 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: It's unclear right now how to how to triage or priority? 403 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 3: Right? Yeah? 404 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: Like which species do the respect that you are supposed 405 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: to give human beings? You know, the short list is 406 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: always the super duper intelligent creatures. But should we sentence 407 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: other life forms to a brutal, horrifying existence and then 408 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 1: death just because they're dumb? If we start torturing and 409 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: killing living things just because they're dumb, a lot of 410 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: humans are going to have a bad day. 411 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 3: No, no doubt. 412 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 2: And it's also the whole argument that we see about 413 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 2: animal testing, right. You know, obviously there are certain types 414 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 2: of animal testing that are inherently cruel, like we've talked 415 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 2: about with the cosmetic testing and certain pharmaceutical testing. But 416 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 2: it can't be overlooked that certain apes, you know, and 417 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 2: lab rats and such, you know, certain creatures that are 418 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 2: routinely used to study medications that can save human lives. 419 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 2: So at that point it's sort of a balancing act. 420 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 2: You know, you're sort of doing the whole weighing thing, 421 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 2: like is which one is the greater you know species, 422 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 2: you know which one deserves you know, like as no 423 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 2: one's making the argument of doing you know, human testing, 424 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: even though we certainly have in the past. Ben if 425 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 2: you want to find out more about that, read stuff 426 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 2: they don't want you to know. 427 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 3: Book. 428 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 2: There's a whole chapter on human experimentation. There's very much 429 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 2: a thing, you know, that is not that far removed 430 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 2: from from the present time. But thankfully, at least you know, 431 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 2: mainstream we've gotten past that. 432 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed, And you know the law is a patchwork, 433 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: and that that is the opinion of the pre eminent 434 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: experts on this field of study. We're talking about people 435 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: like Kristen Stilt, who teaches animal law at Harvard Law School. 436 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: Animals still lack rights, says Stilt, but the line separating 437 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: animals from people is getting increasingly eroded by these rulings 438 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: in India, Argentina, Columbia. And there are people who fire 439 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: back at this, who say that personhood might be a 440 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: nice idea, but it's not gonna work, And they're not 441 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: trying to be jerks. When they say this, they're entering 442 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: again into some philosophical moral quandaries. 443 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 3: Right. 444 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: For instance, there's this idea that bestowing legal personhood on 445 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: an animal is at heart, it's meant to protect them 446 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: from the actions of humans. It's meant to protect them 447 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: from things like factory farming. Its to protect them from 448 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: lab research. 449 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 2: And I've been looking for an opportunity to bring this up. 450 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 2: I think I missed it when it first came up. 451 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 2: But remember the story of Tusco, the elephant that was 452 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 2: used in LSD research the University of Oklahoma, was injected 453 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 2: with three hundred milligrams of LSD, which is about three 454 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 2: thousand times would be considered a human recreational dose, and 455 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 2: he died pretty quickly. It's not clear as to whether 456 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 2: the LSD caused him to die or whether it was 457 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: to help the stuff that they used to revive him. 458 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: But yeah, to protect them from stuff like that. Yeah, 459 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: and we see these stories pop up, they go viral. 460 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 3: In the media. 461 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: Right, look at this animal doing a crazy human like thing. 462 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: This pig got drunk and then tried to fight a 463 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: bigger animal, or this bear did cocaine, or look at 464 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: this orangutang. They're dressing up like a person, you know, 465 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: and these things, these stories, the reason they connect with 466 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: people is entirely because humans feel this fundamental connection, this 467 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: fundamental commonality with all living things. And if you look 468 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: at the legal system the humans have created, if you 469 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: want to force humans to treat animals as legal persons 470 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: and remedy that inadequacy of animal protection, then what you're 471 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: going to find is that it is kind of a 472 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: reaction to the systematic failure of traditional animal welfare laws. 473 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 1: They don't really protect animals in any meaningful way. That's 474 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: the argument. 475 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 2: I mean again, that's we know this to be true 476 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 2: just from the farming, the factory farming stuff alone. You know, 477 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 2: despite the best efforts of activists, we know there are 478 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 2: still pretty gnarly conditions, you know, in certain very large 479 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,719 Speaker 2: scaled kind of factory farms. 480 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, man, I mean there are conferences about this 481 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: all the time. No one at these conferences is a villain, okay, 482 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: just you know, there's no like Craven the Hunter character 483 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: showing up in stingray Bo with like a tiger fur stole. 484 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: It's just just just notioning on some whale meat snacks. 485 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: Fig Yeah, no, no, what's going Adams are the worst 486 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: and it's fun to hurt them. They're saying things like, 487 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: how do we how do we make the world a 488 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: better place, which is a beautiful question, it's a very 489 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:27,959 Speaker 1: difficult question to answer. And the idea that humans should 490 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: be the arbiters of these decisions is already kind of 491 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: inherently off base, right, It's already sort of biased. Say, 492 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: you'll say, we are not animals. We can save them, though, 493 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: and we can treat them almost like they're as cool 494 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: as us, And that's kind of that's kind of weird, right. 495 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: If we flip the idea and we assume that the 496 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: animals become the arbiters, then we're left with a really 497 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: thing like imagine animals denying they are people. By denying 498 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: that humans are animals, it just ties my brain in 499 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: a knot, you know what I mean. 500 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: It's wild, there's no question about it, I mean, you know, 501 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 2: And it just goes to show in all these examples 502 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: that we've we've brought up in how the legal system 503 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 2: kind of has to be sort of navigated, you know, 504 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 2: in order to even have any change take place in 505 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 2: the treatment of animals. 506 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: One hundred percent, you know, and the push to create 507 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: animal personhood within the bounds of the law can only 508 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: go so far, you know, Like we like we've been 509 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: saying for this whole week, the animal personhood idea usually 510 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: applies to the very the very very smart creatures as 511 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: humans understand intelligence sort of the odd students of their biome. 512 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: But we can't sentence other animals torture just because we 513 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: don't think they're super smart. And we probably need to 514 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: look a little bit closer at the idea of domestication, 515 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: right at the idea of animals that remain wild. Does 516 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: a snow leopard, for instance, which is not a domesticated animal, 517 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: does it have the same right to life and dignity 518 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: and the pursuit of happiness as a cetacean or a human. 519 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: And then what about you know, what about the pigs, 520 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: what about the cows, what about the goats? What about 521 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: the sheep? That like, making this personhood move for all 522 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: living animals, the current human economy just is not capable 523 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: of doing that, right. 524 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And it comes back to what I asked. 525 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 2: Earlier, the idea of like, is there a world where 526 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 2: one day it's like, you know, killing an animal is 527 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 2: made illegal, and I would argue that it would take 528 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 2: so much to get to anything resembling that, And I 529 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 2: don't think anyone's even calling for that, because again, like 530 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 2: these we know that animals kill each other every day, 531 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 2: and that like there is like you know, to not 532 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 2: be too lion king about. It's sort of a circle 533 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 2: of life, and that humans happen to have evolved out 534 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 2: of like a hunter gatherer society, like through technology. 535 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 3: But we still like eating meats, you know. 536 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 2: So the question is because we don't need them exactly. 537 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 2: We could all survive on like impossible burgers and lab 538 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 2: grown stuff, right, And maybe that there is an argument 539 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 2: we made, if not only because of the implications on 540 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 2: the environment, you know, from cattle farming, you know, and 541 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 2: like the the water that it takes to feed cattle, 542 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: you know, and like, you know, things like that and resources. 543 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 3: So we could make the. 544 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 2: Argument that we don't need to eat animals and that 545 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 2: is a luxury, and therefore because it's inhumane perhaps and 546 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 2: it contributes to problems with the environment, that we should 547 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 2: stop entirely. 548 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 3: But we like our stuff, We like our comforts. 549 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 2: Here, you know, in the United States, it's the sort 550 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: of some massive sea change or like shift in the 551 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 2: old Overton window. 552 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 3: I just don't see that ever happening. 553 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's tough because you're you're nailing all the 554 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: right things, man Like, it is completely possible for people 555 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: to exist as a vegetarian species, right largely, And it 556 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: makes me think that the real question is how do 557 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: we constrict humanity enough to allow other species to coexist? 558 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: That's the real problem, right, Like, That's that's where the 559 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: rubber hits the road and the idea of legal personhood 560 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: of animals? Is that going to change the way that 561 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: poachers work in different parts of the world? 562 00:33:59,240 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 3: Right? 563 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: Is that going to Is that going to stop the 564 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: ivory trade? Is that going to stop processing a bare 565 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: bile or creation of was it shark sharks fin soup, 566 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff? Sharks fan birds nest, shark fit 567 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: Those are the two. 568 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 3: Best, Yeah, the bad ones. 569 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 2: I think we could maybe come relatively close to closing 570 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 2: this one out there. There's a really great statement from 571 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: Saskia Stucky from the universal of Basel of Bessel referring, 572 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,720 Speaker 2: you know, taking place in a paper presented at Yale 573 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: University called Personhood Beyond the Human and I think there's 574 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 2: a couple of really good pulls from this, and I'll 575 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 2: read this one if you want to read the next one. 576 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 2: To push to create an animal personhood within the law 577 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 2: only goes so far. It happily includes primates, domestic and 578 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 2: companion animals, elephants, dolphins, and the like. But it would 579 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,280 Speaker 2: enhance the legal status only of those animals that stand 580 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 2: within the light of the human campfire, and animals on 581 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 2: whom it's easy to project human qualities like ding ding 582 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 2: ding intelligence, animals that have an obvious economic utility, or 583 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 2: that readily appear to be capable of suffering cruelty. It 584 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 2: stops well short, to put it mildly, of insisting on 585 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 2: something far more fundamental, that all species have an equal 586 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 2: and equivalent right to their own existence. And Ben, I 587 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 2: think this next one really nails it home if you 588 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 2: want to. 589 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, it continues. Even to call this a 590 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:35,720 Speaker 1: right is to fall into a familiar legalistic and linguistic trap. 591 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: We don't have a word, much less a concept in 592 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: law to suggest that the existence of any species is 593 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: its own sufficient justification, a justification that applies to every species, 594 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 1: including us, whose justification is in no way superior to 595 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: that of other species. In the Western tradition, God was 596 00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: the garantur of the equivalence of all species. God was all, 597 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 1: so of course the grant or to humans of dominion 598 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: overall species. So you can see even some of the 599 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: world's quote unquote smartest people end up chasing their own 600 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: tails and figure it out how best to address this problem. 601 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this, this paper really just ends with a question, 602 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 2: which I think is where we in today. The important 603 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 2: question is how do we restrain humanity enough to allow 604 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 2: the continuing coexistence of other species? I wish we had 605 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 2: an answer. And then after two parts of this, I 606 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 2: think I have maybe more questions than answers because this 607 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 2: is a a real noodle scratcher, ben It really it 608 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 2: causes you to think so much about what it means 609 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 2: to be human and if that is even that special. 610 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 2: Like no, you know what I mean, I just mean 611 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 2: to the point of this paper, like what makes us 612 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 2: so great? 613 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 3: You know what I mean? 614 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 2: Like just just because we have opposable thumbs and can 615 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 2: think about thinking. 616 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 3: Like we can't You can't know anybody. 617 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 2: Else's experience or the experience lonely experience of an animal, 618 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,720 Speaker 2: you know, so It's like, it seems very short sighted 619 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,320 Speaker 2: and in human centric, and the same way that it 620 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 2: seems short sighted to think that any extraterrestrial encounter would 621 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 2: be some species or creature or type of thing that 622 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 2: would resemble us, that we could even communicate with or 623 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 2: relate to in any way. You know. 624 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: But let's take it one step beyond the beyond beyond 625 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: the Yeah, one step beyond the Uh? Isn't that the 626 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: Is that the show where it's just Riiker starting with 627 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: all these weird questions. 628 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 3: All the Star Trek guys got a science show. 629 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I gotta I gotta said the uh. Yeah, we 630 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: kind of wrote a couple. I gotta send the compilation 631 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: to you man, or maybe we can watch it together 632 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,240 Speaker 1: because it's just amazing. Anyway, this this makes me think 633 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: of the scary thing a little step past the street light, 634 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: off the edge of the map, here be serpent stuff. 635 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 1: Extraterrestrials are statistically inevitable given the size of the universe, 636 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: And how likely is it that those creatures or entities 637 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: are having conversations like this about humans. We might just 638 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: be the insects, you know what I mean. 639 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 3: Who. 640 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 2: They're like. 641 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 3: Don't decide those the sound of my brain exploding. 642 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a weird one. 643 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 2: It's a sci fi trope because it's absolutely uh reasonable 644 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 2: to think that there's some greater intelligence than us that's 645 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 2: looking down at us, and that we think we're so 646 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 2: hot and that we're at the top of the food 647 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 2: chain or whatever. I mean. A great example is the 648 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 2: movie Arrival, you know, where it's like they were like insects, 649 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 2: you know, to a sufficient enough you know, higher power 650 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 2: or whatever we would be to them, what we think 651 00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 2: insects are to us, you know. 652 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:00,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, An I'm. 653 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 2: Not trying to be nihilistic here, and this sort of 654 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 2: existentially dreadful down note, but that is kind of where 655 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 2: these these these you think it was a silly oh 656 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 2: animals in court, but it really does start to really 657 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 2: make you think about. 658 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 3: What it means to be alive, you know, and and 659 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 3: and for that I say kudos to doctor Z. What 660 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 3: a time. 661 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: Yes, thank you to doctor Z. Thank you of course 662 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: to repel Max Free Training Williams. Big big things, special things, 663 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: even like max Ada SOUNDQ. Thanks to our guest producer, 664 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: the Man the Myth a Legend, mister Paul Mission Controlled. 665 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:43,320 Speaker 2: Decad not to mention Alex Williams, who composed our theme 666 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 2: Jonathan Strickland. 667 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 3: Man, that was cool to cool, it's a strong word. 668 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 3: It was. 669 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 2: It was informative and non fictional to have him back, 670 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 2: and uh man, I really pooped the bed on that 671 00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 2: one with the whole coffee thing. At least were setting 672 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 2: the Giant Grandfather clock back to midnight threat level midnight 673 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 2: or the very least zero so we can start afresh. 674 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 2: So you won the battle, wist, but not the war. 675 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 1: Interesting fact. He is a pescatariant okay, that's the one 676 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,760 Speaker 1: that only eats the shrimps, right. He cannot eat shellfish, 677 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: that's right, crazy algy fish and foul fowls like salmon. 678 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: He'll spash cock a chicken, you know what I mean? 679 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 2: I thought chicken didn't didn't qualify as pesca. 680 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 3: I thought pescal was specific. 681 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 1: Pesca is just for yeah, it's I can't remember the 682 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:43,280 Speaker 1: specific word for both, like no pigs, no cattle. 683 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 3: No sheep. 684 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: He's just birds and birds and fish that are not shellfish. 685 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 3: Got it? Look, we could ask him. He will break 686 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 3: it down for us. Dude. 687 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: We could just ask him the next time we have 688 00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 1: like thirty minutes at the. 689 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,839 Speaker 3: End of an episode one hundred percent. 690 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 2: It looks like it's called the politarian dietsplitarian politarian. Sometimes 691 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 2: eat fish and seafood are considered pesca politarian. 692 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: Pesca politarian today I learned anyway, I feel fancy, like 693 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: a spectacled bear. 694 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 2: I feel pretty. I was so pretty and witty and bright. 695 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 2: And that's all thanks to you, Ben Any ridiculous. 696 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: The story and that stanks to you, Nol. And I'm 697 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: glad we're an audio podcast because I lost a bit 698 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: of my composure and I literally just smelt my armpit. 699 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 1: It's a part of us. I should probably keeps. 700 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 3: Good, Donisty's the best policy. We'll see you next time, folks. 701 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from I Heeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 702 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,280 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.